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Front Burner Transcript for January 24, 2025

Host: Jayme Poisson

JAYME POISSON: Hi, it's Jayme, and real quick before today's show, can you hit the follow button? Just asking because we may have just come up in a search you did for info about today's topic. Well, we do this five days a week, and in the next little bit we'll be hitting our Canadian election and U.S. politics news pretty hard. So please follow us. It helps us a lot and you also won't miss anything. Okay. Thanks so much.

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JP: Hi, I'm Jayme Poisson.

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JP: On Monday night, at President Donald Trump's inauguration rally, Elon Musk thanked the crowd.

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ELON MUSK: You know, there are elections that, elections that come and go. Some elections are, you know, important. Some are not. But this one, this one [laughs]... this one really mattered.

[crowd cheers]

ELON MUSK: And I just want to say thank you for making it happen. Thank you.

ELON MUSK: He then thumped his right hand on the left side of his chest and thrust it into the air in a straight line. Then he turned around and made the gesture again. The backlash online was immediate. Claire Aubin, a historian specializing in Nazism in the U.S., said that the gesture was clearly a Nazi salute, or a "sieg heil." "My professional opinion is that you're all right. You should believe your eyes," she said. Ruth Ben-ghiat, a history professor at New York University, posted: "Historian of fascism here. It was a Nazi salute - and a very belligerent one too". But the Anti-Defamation League, or ADL for short, an organization that was founded to combat antisemitism, disagreed. It posted on X: "It seems that @elonmusk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute, but again, we appreciate that people are on edge. In this moment, all sides should give one another a bit of grace, perhaps even the benefit of the doubt, and take a breath. This is a new beginning. Let's hope for healing and work toward unity in the months and years ahead." Musk responded: "Thanks guys" with a laugh-crying emoji. On X, he also posted: "Frankly, they need better dirty tricks. The "everyone is Hitler" attack is sooo tired." The ADL is well known for its advocacy. Not only around antisemitism, but also around civil rights issues. Their work often gets referenced by government agencies, corporations and the media. Its defence of Musk would have been nearly unthinkable, even a year-and-a-half ago when Musk threatened to sue the group for defamation. Mari Cohen has been covering this evolving relationship between Musk and the ADL for Jewish Currents. She's here to talk about that, and how it fits into ongoing criticisms the organization is facing.

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JP: Hi, Mari. Thank you so much for coming on to Front Burner.

MARI COHEN: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

JP: All right, so let's start with Elon Musk here. As I mentioned in the intro, he's essentially said that the "everyone is Hitler" attack is tired. But tell me a bit about how much traction his gestures from earlier in the week are getting online. Who have we seen respond to what he did with, I don't know, let's say enthusiasm?

MARI COHEN: Yeah, absolutely. So whatever Elon Musk intended with his gesture, it's obvious that certain members of the far right who have been known to express, you know, neo-Nazi views or affiliate with white supremacism and antisemitism, have obviously been very happy to see what Musk did. So there was a helpful roundup from Rolling Stone about some of, how some of these far-right figures have responded. For example, like Andrew Torba, founder of the Christian nationalist social media platform Gab, shared the clip and said, "Incredible things are happening already lmao." You've got this Christopher Pohlhaus, leader of neo-Nazi group Blood Tribe, posted the clip on Telegram and said, "I don't care if this was a mistake. I'm going to enjoy the tears over it." So there's already like a roundup of figures who are very appreciative of what Musk did.

JP: Yeah. Let me add just two to that pot. White nationalist streamer, Nick Fuentes, said that the move was a, quote, "straight up, Sieg Heil, like, loving-Hitler energy."

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NICK FUENTES: It wasn't even like a, like a subtle, like a wave, like one of these, like a Laura Ingraham... Rmemeber when Laura Ingraham did that? That was a straight up, like, Sieg Heil, like, loving-Hitler energy. [laughs] That was a, that was like a straight-up-with-intensity Roman salute.

JP: And then Andrew Tate, I saw last night, talked about bringing back the Nazi salute.

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ANDREW TATE: You know, I'm kind of thinking we should bring the Nazi salute back. Because the people we've been arguing with for the last four years have no interest in objective truth. Heil SpaceX.

JP: There's some context here to get into with you. Can you tell me more about how Musk has been criticized for essentially opening the floodgates of hate speech, and in particular, antisemitic speech in recent years, following his purchase of Twitter? And maybe if you could give me some examples there as well.

MARI COHEN: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the big reasons that Musk wanted to take over Twitter in the first place in 2022, and part of the reason that he started his bid, was that he claimed that Twitter was clamping down on free speech unfairly. And he believed that Twitter's moderation policies, which often did involve kind of banning any kind of, you know, super hateful white supremacist neo-Nazi content.

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REPORTER: Tonight, a new phase of fallout in the stunning incendiary wake of Kanye West's actions. The artist now simply known as "Ye," once again banned from Twitter after another antisemitic post. This time, a now-deleted image of a Star of David enveloping a swastika.

MARI COHEN: He, you know, believed that this was stifling conservative speech. And when he took over Twitter in fall 2022, he, you know, immediately started relaxing some of those standards. And the other thing he allowed was that anybody could become a blue check kind of verified account as long as they paid for it. And so anybody could pay for this account and then have their replies prioritized and boosted, which meant that people promoting often this kind of harassment were able to get verified and then have their content, like, boosted and prioritized. And you can just see that. Like, anyone who uses the site now, I think it's pretty easy to see that happening, which is that, like, you know, you'll go to a tweet, and in the replies, there'll be a bunch of people with blue checks. And often some of them will be saying nasty stuff about minorities or about Jews or about women. And that stuff is all over the platform. And this was something that a lot of groups started tracking pretty quickly after Musk's takeover in 2023. I think there was a report by Media Matters saying that, you know, X had been running its ads for major companies right next to the neo-Nazi posts, which is something that actually really upset a lot of the major companies and led some of them to pull advertising. And then also the ADL itself actually was tracking some of this stuff because they have a technology and society division that kind of reviews content on social media platforms. And I think they tracked like a 60% increase in antisemitic content just a few months after Musk's takeover.

JP: Right. I remember some of the criticisms at the time. There were like these accounts that would just broadcast Hitler's speeches and praise like his genocidal regime.

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JP: So talk to me a bit more about what the ADL did here. Right? So, they're tracking this, they see this increase. And in November 2022, the ADL, along with a number of non-profits, they start an advertising boycott. And then about a year and a half later, Musk actually threatened to sue them, right? And so what was the accusation at the time? How did the ADL respond? How did that all shake out?

MARI COHEN: Yeah. So basically what happened was, yeah, the ADL, with a coalition of other, I think, like, kind of civil rights or minority groups, started the boycott campaign called Stop Hate for Profit, where they said they wouldn't advertise on X. And I believe they were trying to encourage, you know, businesses and corporations not to advertise. Although it should be said that many of these businesses and corporations were stopping advertising of their own accord because they didn't like having their posts next to neo-Nazi posts. And Musk was upset about this. So I think, yeah, in fall of 2023, I think this is like September 2023 maybe, he's tweeted about it. And he tweeted: "Since the acquisition, the ADL has been trying to kill this platform by falsely accusing it & me of being anti-Semitic. To clear our platform's name on the matter of Anti-semitism, it looks like we have no choice but to file a defamation lawsuit against the Anti-Defamation League ... oh the irony!" So that was kind of-- he's like, they're defaming me by saying that I'm antisemitic, and so I need to sue them. And he starts kind of like, just, I think on Twitter/X at the time, he starts supporting this online campaign of people complaining about the ADL. That's basically complaining that the ADL strangles hate speech and that they support civil rights and diversity and social justice efforts, and so the ADL needs to be banned. And really, kind of the implication here was that the ADL had been the sort of instrumental organizer in this advertising boycott, and that it was sort of behind any advertising revenue that Twitter was losing.

JP: And then they patch it up, right? The ADL and Elon Musk. And tell me how that even happens.

MARI COHEN: Yeah. So, well, first of all, in response, the ADL had actually resumed advertising on X at this point. It had like some of its own advertising for its own anti-antisemitism programing. And then they stopped advertising again after Musk was attacking them. And then a month later they actually started again. So already the ADL was like not taking a super confrontational approach. But the way that things really get patched up has to do with Israel. And basically what happened was, you know, soon after this whole dispute, October 7th, 2023 happens. You know, Hamas attacks on Israel and then Israel immediately starts with this onslaught on Gaza, which quickly, as the casualties pile up, many people start calling it a genocide. There's a kind of eruption of protests and student movements against Israel, people calling for a ceasefire. The ADL comes out very strong, criticizing those movements, criticizing people who are opposing Israel's war as antisemitic. And there's a lot of debate over, like, certain phrases, and as they're used in the student movement. One of those phrases is, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." The ADL has been against that for a long time and called it antisemitic. And I think in November 2023, Elon Musk made a tweet that was basically like, we're going to ban 'from the river to the sea.' And the term decolonization. Because a lot of people use this kind of colonial or decolonial analysis of Israel's position with respect to Palestinians. He said that they're going to ban those phrases. Basically, he said that they were going to ban users who use them, or suspend them. [JP: Mm-hmm.] I don't think they've done this. I don't think Musk followed through on that. It didn't seem like that happened. But he said they were going to. And Greenblatt was happy. He kind of responded to it and said, Elon Musk is being a leader in the fight against hate. And that was kind of their rapprochement.

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JP: And when you say Greenblatt, this is the CEO of the ADL. And just tell me a little bit more about him and why he is at the heart of the recent criticisms that the league has been facing.

MARI COHEN: So Jonathan Greenblatt is the CEO of the ADL. He's been in that position, I believe, since 2015. When he came on, he was considered to be kind of like a sort of young, new, progressive guy, bringing new energy to the ADL. He didn't have a ton of experience. Like, one of his big areas of expertise, like, things that he did before coming to the ADL, was he was involved in an effort to like sell socially responsible water. But he also had briefly served as an Obama staffer. So people kind of associated him with Obama politics and the Obama administration. But over time, Greenblatt really has distinguished himself. He's basically the face of the ADL everywhere. You know, he's making his own tweets. He's going on TV, on CNN, on MSNBC, to talk about the ADL's perspective. And he really has distinguished himself for starting a new policy where the ADL is going to target anti-Zionist politics as antisemitism. And much of what he's doing in these public appearances and on Twitter is really calling out people that he perceives as, you know, criticizing or protesting Israel.

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JONATHAN GREENBLATT: I'll tell you, as I think about corporate, corporations. First I'll just mention universities. Because I think we saw at Harvard the total utter failure of leadership for days after the massacre. And the students who came out with this bizarre, bewildering piece. Yale University. The secretary and dean of academic life, put out a piece on the 9th which is truly ghastly. In the passive voice: We deplore the loss of life on all sides. Like, this was a massacre of civilians. And if Yale University, like Harvard, like so many others, can't speak clearly when they have in the past about -- and appropriately, by the way -- about Black Lives Matter and stopping Asian hate and climate and so many other issues...

MARI COHEN: And so he's really distinguished himself in that way. And it's quite different than what people originally thought that he was going to do at the organization.

JP: And just to be really clear here, the main criticism here is that he's using his voice in the organization to equate antisemitism with anti-Israel sentiment, right? And [MARI: Yeah, yes.] as you explained, there's a lot of controversy over that. Maybe you want to talk a little bit more about that, this idea of whether or not anti-Zionism is antisemitism.

MARI COHEN: Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, a lot of the debates over Israel and Palestine, you know, in the U.S. and Canada and many other places today, really comes down to this question. And, you know, basically the argument that groups like the ADL make is that they say that they don't... that it's okay to criticize Israel and the Israeli government, but it's just not okay to criticize Israel's status as a Jewish state. But in practice, even a lot of people who criticize the Israeli government come under scrutiny from groups like the ADL. But basically, their argument is that, you know, Israel is a representation of self-determination for Jews; its Jewish nationalism; it's a place where a lot of Jews live. And so to call out Israel or to oppose the idea of a Jewish state in the land is to basically single out Jews as not being deserving of a state. Now, what a lot of other people say -- including a lot of progressive Jewish groups, which are growing in number, as well as, you know, Palestinian groups, other groups on the left -- is that, well, you know, at the end of the day, Israel's status as a Jewish state means that there are all these, you know, Palestinian people who live in the land who actually don't have voting rights, don't have citizenship. And, you know, Israel's constitution in this way basically requires there to be a large number of people in the land who are oppressed, who, you know, in terms of the occupied territories, are often under military rule, don't have access to full civil rights, don't have passports, and also always require Israel to exclude certain people from its borders if it's defined as a Jewish state. And that this doesn't have anything to do with opposing Jewish people, it just has to do with opposing a state formation that, you know, is kind of anti-democratic at its core.

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JP: There's another criticism of the organization that I know that you've reported on quite a bit, and that's how they collect and present statistics on antisemitic incidents. And just tell me a little bit more about that briefly.

MARI COHEN: It's both related to the anti-Zionism criticism and also a little bit broader. Every year, the ADL does this audit of antisemitic incidents, and they kind of count up all the reports that they have been... that they've taken over the year of antisemitic incidents that had happened in different places. And then they put them all in a report and they count them. And then they say, this many happened this year, this many happened last year. That means there's an x percent rise in antisemitism.

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JONATHAN GREENBLATT: By any measure, 2019 was a devastating year for the Jewish community in New York. At the ADL, we tracked more than 300 antisemitic incidents, including acts of harassment, vandalism and violence.

MARI COHEN: And often what they do is they-- like especially for the past few years, they've really used it to show that antisemitism is exploding all over the U.S. They said, there's a 'this percent' rise. They said, this is why we really have to be on guard.

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JONATHAN GREENBLATT: Yeah, you know, we know that social media is a super spreader of antisemitism and bigotry of all forms. And I think what we're seeing now, Becky, is it's just exploded. Events in the Middle East, polarization here in America. And as you said, 18 to 22%, half of teenagers between 13 and 17, report having been harassed online. The numbers are staggering.

MARI COHEN: But if you look at the statistical methods, a lot of sociologists, etc., are actually quite critical, because oftentimes the methodology will change year over year. For example, I think it was maybe from 2021 to 2022, they added a bunch of new partners who were bringing them data. So they had a bunch of new sources of data compared to the year before, but they were still reporting as if they could do an apples-to-apples comparison from the previous numbers. And then also just in general, you know, it's like a pretty tough way to try to understand antisemitism, because there's all different types of incidents that are like lumped together in one report. So you-- say you've got like a white nationalist handing out a flyer, plus somebody punching somebody and calling them a 'dirty Jew,' plus somebody drawing a swastika on a wall. You know, it's all just kind of lumped together in one report. So it can be really hard to tell what these different things mean, if some things might be more severe than others, how to understand them. And also, historically, the ADL has sometimes included anti-Zionism in these reports, which is obviously quite contested, as I talked about. And then actually, since October 7th, 2023, they have started including basically anti-Israel rallies in their reports. So they've actually increased the statistics in that way. [JP: Right.] And one of the reasons for the criticism is, you know, it's not that they're... it's necessarily wrong to try to measure antisemitism in American life, which is what they're doing, focused on the U.S. You know, statistics do show that there has probably been a rise in antisemitic incidents, like over...

JP: And very high-profile ones, too. I'm thinking here in Canada, police are investigating fires at a synagogue. In Montreal, a Jewish school that has been shot at twice. Please, continue.

MARI COHEN: You know, there are studies that do show that when Israel is in the news and, you know, there's news of Israel committing certain brutal actions, that that often does tend to result in more violence against Jewish communities in the diaspora. So this is something that we're seeing. And it's not to trivialize it, but the way that the ADL does its audits seem often to kind of focus on being able to put out a press release -- especially as an organization that relies on donations, needs a lot of support from people who are scared about antisemitism -- but without really being able to break down the incidents in a clear way that really shows what's happening. And also these statistics are often used then to target the pro-Palestine movement. So, you know, Greenblatt will be in one of his appearances, and he'll say, well, antisemitism has increased 'this percent,' so that's why it's not okay for there to be a protest against Israel. And so even if they are capturing some real antisemitic incidents in the reports, then they're being used for this criticism of the pro-Palestine movement.

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JP: Mari, I'm so interested, how has all of this controversy borne out in this, you know, 100-year-old organization? I know there's been reports of staffs quitting over what they see as ADL's pro-Israel advocacy.

MARI COHEN: Yes, there definitely, it definitely has caused a lot of dissent within the organization. That's something that my colleague and I have reported on. You've seen some resignations, people leaving. Alex and I reported a year ago that three people had left since October 7th, like over the course of fall 2023, just from the Center for Technology and Society, which does the social media stuff. And one of the more high-profile things is that Yaël Eisenstat, who had come in I think like a year-and-a-half before to lead that Center for Technology and Society and was kind of a big name in fighting online hate, she left because of Greenblatt praising Elon Musk. And she didn't say that publicly. She said she was just taking another opportunity. But we kind of heard from sources inside that it was over this disagreement. You know, so for some of these people, it's not necessarily about the Israel-related advocacy. It's more about this idea of cozying up to Musk. But it's all a little bit connected, in that I think for many people in the organization, there's a perception that when a college student is saying something about Israel, the ADL is going to go full turbo mode, calling them out, doing everything to stop them. And then when somebody like Elon Musk, you know, richest man in the world, close associate with the president, is doing a Nazi salute, the ADL is going to say, oh, it's okay. Take a deep breath. Don't criticize him too much. And there's a lot of disagreement with that within the organization.

JP: Has Greenblatt and the ADL responded to all of these criticisms that they've been getting?

MARI COHEN: Publicly, no. I think, you know... My understanding is that whenever, whenever there's a leak to the press, if like, you know, for example, Jewish Currents publishes things from... that employees have told us, or, you know, Vice and The Daily Beast did some reporting last year, I think that there's a lot of, I think that they're really trying to stop those leaks and they really don't want people to talk to the press about it. So we know that they're concerned about getting this press. And then obviously, we know... I mean, even before October 7th, in 2022, when Greenblatt kind of announced a big policy change -- that the ADL would officially define anti-Zionism as antisemitism -- there was a meeting where some employees were expressing dissent with that. We obtained the audio, and Greenblatt was very much like, well, you need to think about whether this is the right place for you, and if you don't agree with us about anti-Zionism, maybe you don't want to work here. So he obviously is kind of dismissing a lot of those concerns. And last year, also, he gave a speech at Brown University at one point, Greenblatt did. And he made a mention in there to, you know... No matter what you hear from socialist magazines that very few Jews actually read, anti-Zionism is antisemitism. And so it seemed like he was making a reference, perhaps, to us at Jewish Currents.

JP: Yeah. As the socialist magazine, yeah.

MARI COHEN: As a Jewish socialist magazine that has done a lot of reporting on him. And it seemed like he was basically saying, whatever they say, that's not... we don't agree with that, or that's not true. I think there's like maybe some times when there's enough of an uproar they'll do something. In fall 2022, Greenblatt went on TV, and it was after Musk had taken over Twitter. And Greenblatt, he was supposed to-- his staff had prepared talking points for him to talk about some of Musk's problematic history with racism. And instead, he praised Elon Musk as the Henry Ford of our time. And people thought that was really ironic because Henry Ford was like a very well-known antisemite. But he was saying it in a positive sense. And I think at that point there was enough backlash that Greenblatt apologized and said he had misspoke and that Henry Ford was bad and whatever. But it's, you know, most of the time, no, there isn't a response, and they definitely are not changing their policy direction.

JP: Okay. Mari, just before we go, and I don't want to put you on the spot here, but I wonder if we could kind of end where we started with what we saw this week with Elon Musk, and also the ADL's response. You are a Jewish person, and I just wonder what that's like for you to watch all of this play out.

MARI COHEN: I'm quite used to the ADL operating in this way after reporting on it for a while, so it's hard to be surprised. But I honestly think... It's really disappointing. It's really disappointing to know that there's not an organization that can actually speak up about antisemitism in a clear way and can see how it operates when it actually is operating at, you know, high levels of power, and to say something about it. It just feels like there's a total void, where this organization that's supposed to be the main organization fighting antisemitism just doesn't care, as long as these people agree with their goals in Israel and are in power. And that feels pretty disappointing for me as a Jewish person that this organization that's supposed to represent me is so... acting in such a way that's so opposite in what I believe in terms of both my own safety and justice for other people. And I think it's just, it's really disappointing and really sad for me to see that, you know, Jewish history and Jewish politics and Jewish subjectivity is being used in that way. So, it's really heartbreaking.

JP: Okay. Thank you so much for that. Really appreciate you taking the time.

MARI COHEN: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

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JP: Okay, so before we go today, a quick update. In the aftermath of all of the criticism that he's been facing, Elon took to the platform that he owns and posted a series of Nazi jokes. They're all one liners, and I'm not going to repeat them. But Greenblatt replied, quote, "We've said it hundreds of times before and we will say it again. The Holocaust was a singularly evil event, and it is inappropriate and offensive to make light of it. Elon Musk, the Holocaust is not a joke."

JP: Front Burner was produced this week by Allie Jaynes, Kieran Oudshoorn, Lauren Donnelly and Mackenzie Cameron. Sound design was by Sam McNulty and Marco Luciano. Music is by Joseph Shabason. Our senior producer is Elaine Chau. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Lokos. And I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Thanks so much for following us this week, we really appreciate it. And we'll talk to you next week.

For more Front Burner transcripts, please click here.

Elon Musk, Nazi accusations, and the ADL - Transcript

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