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Front Burner Transcript for February 10, 2025

Host: Jayme Poisson

[Music: Theme]

JAYME POISSON: Hey, everybody. I'm Jayme Poisson.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: You know, they don't pay very much for military. And the reason they don't pay much is they assume that we're going to protect them. That's not an assumption they can make, because why are we protecting another country?

JP: In the latest whiplash from the White House, Trump told reporters on Air Force One Sunday that on Monday, he would announce 25 per cent tariffs on all steel and aluminum imported to the U.S., including from Canada. This, of course, comes a week after he decided to give Canada a 30-day reprieve from blanket and crippling tariffs on all our exports to the U.S. He said that the pause would give the two countries time to make a, quote, "economic deal." Who knows what that means at the moment? But on Friday, Trudeau told a group of business leaders that he thinks the president is serious about wanting to annex Canada, and that he's motivated by access to our critical minerals.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Trump has it in mind that the easiest way to do it is absorbing our country and it is a real thing. In my conversation...

JP: To state the obvious here, this is an incredibly tense and chilling time for two countries that have been allies and trade partners for a long time. And I think it's fair to say that after last week, a lot of Canadians felt like a ton of trust had been shattered. But the current fear and anger over tariffs and annexation talk, this isn't actually a new thing. For example, I want to play you part of this Liberal attack ad on the Conservative Prime Minister Brian Mulroney ahead of the 1988 federal election, where trade with the U.S. was a big issue. The ad shows two diplomats, one American, one Canadian, sitting at this table looking at a map of North America.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Since we're talking about this free trade agreement, there's one line I'd like to change.

VOICE 2: Which line is that?

VOICE: Well, this one here, it's just getting in the way.

JP: And the American diplomat just erases the border between the U.S. and Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 3: Just how much are we giving away in the Mulroney free trade deal? Our water, our health care, our culture? The line has been drawn. Which side do you stand on?

JP: The tensions over sides, trade, national identity have been around since Canada became a country. So, how does this current crisis compare, and what lessons might those past fights offer? Asa McKercher is here with me to talk through all of this and more. He's the Hudson Chair in Canada-U.S. relations at the Brian Mulroney Institute of Government, and teaches at St. Francis Xavier University in Antigonish, Nova Scotia. He said, it's so great to have you here. Thank you so much for making the time.

ASA MCKERCHER: Hi, Jayme. Pleasure to be here.

JP: So, here we are, a week out from a really dramatic escalation in Canada-U.S. relations that is currently sort of on pause. So basically, I think it's fair to say holding this country hostage. As a student of Canadian and U.S. history, big picture. How does this current moment stack up against other tense moments in, in our history together?

ASA MCKERCHER: Sure. I mean, we've had a lot of periods of tension in Canada-U.S. relations. You know, younger listeners might remember the Iraq war and the differences between the Bush administration and the Chrétien administration about whether to support that conflict.

SOUNDCLIP

JEAN CHRÉTIEN: Canada worked very hard to find a compromise to bridge the gap in the Security Council. Unfortunately, we were not successful. If military action proceeds without a new resolution of the Security Council, Canada will not participate.

ASA MCKERCHER: Or Richard Nixon and Pierre Trudeau over, over a host of issues, including trade matters.

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RICHARD NIXON: We do not have a wall between us. While we do have this great unguarded boundary. This does not mean that we are the same. It does not mean that we do not have differences, but it does mean that we have found a way to discuss our differences in a friendly way and without war. And this is the great lesson for all the world to see.

ASA MCKERCHER: Older listeners might remember some of the differences between Lyndon Johnson and Lester Pearson around the Vietnam War.

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ANNOUNCER FROM CLIP: Leader Lester Pearson becomes the Dominion's 14th Prime Minister. Immediately upon taking office, Mr. Pearson announces that the first task of his new government, a task expected to be completed within the month, will be to mend U.S.-Canadian relations. It was the refusal to accept nuclear warheads for U.S.-supplied missiles that cost former Prime Minister John Diefenbaker his office.

ASA MCKERCHER: Or even the Kennedy-Diefenbaker years of the 1960s, when there were personality differences between Presidents and Prime Ministers, and often policy differences. What we haven't really seen for a really long time is a President who seems to be going out of his way to question the very existence of our country. And so that, I think, is a big difference between sort of past crises that, or tension points in relations that I think listeners could kind of rattle off, off the top of their heads. And this kernel, we haven't really seen something like this in well over a century, if not a bit longer.

JP: And when you say that we haven't seen something like this in well over a century or maybe a little bit longer, like what? What are you referring to?

ASA MCKERCHER: Yeah. So, I mean, tariffs are a very long-standing issue, or sort of tariffs and trade issues in Canada-U.S. relations, though, one of the reasons Canada actually formed as a country in 1867 is because we had a trade agreement as British colonies with the United States, and the Americans had ripped it up in 1864 because of their anger at British support for the South or the Confederacy during the American Civil War. And so, the colonies, British colonies that had came together. One of the reasons, was this lack of a trade issue, lack of trade with the Americans. They said, "Well, better to trade with ourselves." There were other issues as well around railroads and also the fear of an actual American invasion that were Americans talking about, you know, turning the Union Army north into Canada. There was a bill really into the House, a draft bill in the House of Representatives calling for the annexation of Canada. It didn't actually go anywhere, but there were these kind of threats out there. And if we sort of flash forward to the late 1890s, the Canadian government by that point under Sir John A. Macdonald had put in place some tariffs called the national policy, essentially a way to kind of build up our little kind of Canadian industry, sort of parallels to what Mr. Trump wants to do with his tariffs and, but was hoping to have trade, a trade deal with the Americans. And in 1891, there were some kind of negotiations, sort of that began between the Macdonald government and the American administration at the time. And essentially, the American Secretary of State, a guy named James Blaine, said essentially, unless you're willing to join with us in a single country, we're not going to have any kind of trade agreement. So essentially, what Donald Trump was exactly saying, "Join us as the 51st state," although at the time, it would have probably been [inaudible] the 46th state, or something with. [JAYME POISSON: Yeah.] And, and tariffs then, won't be an issue because we'll be one country. And it's no, no coincidence that this is a period that Mr. Trump seems to be really attracted to, the kind of era of William McKinley, and kind of the muscular kind of American expansionism of that period.

JP: Could you just, that's so interesting. Can you just tell me a little bit more about why you think he's so attracted to that period? You know.

ASA MCKERCHER: It's a period which William McKinley at first as a Congress, Congressman and then later as President, put in place a whole series of tariffs, really to protect, you know, growing American industry, worried about competition from the British and from the Germans and, for that matter, from the Canadians. And so, put in place a series of really big tariffs that actually caused an economic depression. Mr. Trump kind of forgets about that word, but was also a President who, who oversaw the kind of overseas expansion of the United States. So, there's a war with Spain in which the United States then gobbles up Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines. And, you know, a few years later, the U.S. takes part in a, you know, kind of a bizarre expedition to take over parts of Colombia, which that become Panama and then, to build the Panama Canal. So, this is a period which the Americans are using muscle to make themselves a great power. And there's fears in Canada that kind of attention actually at the time would be turned towards us. For Mr. Trump, you know, he's, he's concerned about kind of great power competition with China, with Russia, and is probably also looking to burnish his, his reputation. And so I think, you know, territorial expansion seems to be a great way to do that, whether it's Greenland or Panama, or craziest fantasy perhaps, annexing Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: You know, the Prime Minister said this weekend to a group of Canadian businessmen, he was a private meeting. He said that your wish for Canada to be the 51st state is a, quote, real thing. Is it a real thing?

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, it is.

JP: Can you kind of take me through... I know we got a lot of ground to cover, but when it comes to trade and tariffs and tension points like, where else we would have seen fights with the Americans over that kind of stuff?

ASA MCKERCHER: Yeah. So, you know, the classic example I think that historians like to point to is the federal election in 1911. There was a Liberal government of Wilfrid Laurier, been in power for 15 years. Was Canada experienced a period of economic growth, and they were looking to sort of keep the economic ball rolling. And so, they thought, well, you know, a trade deal with the Americans was really good at that time. The American President was a guy named William Howard Taft, who had a very favourable view to Canada, he had a summer cottage in, on the St. Lawrence River in Québec. And so, they negotiated a free trade agreement, and it sails through the U.S. Congress, which makes a lot of Canadians suspicious because normally, Congress was, was pretty protectionist. And what's then worrying is that a guy named Champ Clark, who was due to become the speaker of the House or a pretty important character, makes a statement to the effect, basically, "I can't wait to see the Stars and Stripes fly over, over Canada." And that, of course, alarms a lot of Canadian nationalists who say there's a plot afoot between the Liberals and the Taft administration to essentially bring Canada into, into the United States. And so, they're very, you know, viciously fought election in 1911, in which the conservative opposition wins under, under Robert Borden, essentially painting the Laurier Liberals as Yankee sellouts, as traitors. And so, that really cast the shadow over the next you know, 60, 70 years. And so, for a long time, Canadians were the ones really concerned about annexation. I mean, you had that great, that great opening attack ad from the 1988 election.

JP: Yeah. Yeah. Because obviously, like, this fear never went away, right? Because here, here we were in in 1988 talking about it again. Talk to me a little bit more about the 1980s, and the eventual signing of NAFTA. You know, I know that we've talked about it on the show before. It was actually a really big fight. But just, just remind me a little bit more about what happened there.

ASA MCKERCHER: Yeah. So, there had already been a kind of a relaxation of, of tariffs on a whole host of items between the Canadians and Americans going right back to, to the 1930s to try to get out of the Great Depression. But then the 1980s, flash forward, there's rising protectionism in America, partly due to fears about Japan and Japanese imports into United States, particularly in cars, but, but other items as well. This is where Mr. Trump, as a young, as a younger guy, really becomes really opposed to free trade, particularly around the issue of Japan.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP (FROM CLIP): Something is going to happen over the next number of years with this country because you can't keep going on losing 200 billion. And yet we let Japan come in and dump everything right into our markets. And it's not free trade. If you ever go to Japan right now and try to sell something, forget about it, Oprah. Just forget about it. It's almost impossible.

ASA MCKERCHER: But there's this growing, kind of, protectionist sentiment in the country, also in Congress. And so, the Mulroney government is very concerned about that. And it just so happens that Ronald Reagan, the American President, is a free trader, at least in terms of thinking about the Canada-U.S. relationship. And so, they're able to, able to sign that free trade agreement.

SOUNDCLIP

RONALD REAGAN: North Americans are bound in our visions. You know, our optimism and in our commitment to moving forward together. We settled this continent to change the world [inaudible] proves we need to keep on changing for the better. As Prime Minister Mulroney said not long ago, going forward or not with this agreement, quote, "The choice couldn't be more clear cut. Voices of the past against a vision of the future.".

ASA MCKERCHER: It faces some opposition in the U.S. Congress, but that passes through. And it's in Canada where it stirs up, you know, these, these kind of, you know, fears about American annexation through, through kind of back door means.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: It was a battle of wills, a battle Windsor police officers eventually lost as they threw up their hands and led 2000 anti-free trade demonstrators swarm on to the Ambassador Bridge.

REPORTER 2: Thousands marched through the heart of downtown Toronto in one of the biggest demonstrations held so far against free trade.

VOICE 4: We don't want to be Americanized. We don't want the American health system. We don't want everything that goes with it.

VOICE 5: I don't think it's a good deal for anybody. I have three sons, and this country is going to be for them when I leave, and not for the United States.

ASA MCKERCHER: And, you know, John Turner, the Liberal leader, gives a speech that's making the rounds on social media today, warning about what it will mean to be so close to the United States, to rely on the Americans so much, and what that would mean potentially in the future, particularly if there's a, you know, American government that's not so, not so keen towards us, that's not as friendly as Ronald Reagan was in his views on Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN TURNER: We're just as Canadian as you are, Mr. Mulroney. But I'll tell you this. You mentioned 120 years of history. We built a country east and west and north. We built it on an infrastructure that deliberately resisted the continental pressure of the United States. For 120 years, we've done it with one signature of a pen. You've reversed that, thrown us into the north-south influence of the United States [MARTIN BRIAN MULRONEY: With a do--], and will reduce us, reduce us, I'm sure, to a colony of the United States. Because when the economic levers go, the political independence is sure to fall.

MARTIN BRIAN MULRONEY: Mr. Turner, with a document...

ASA MCKERCHER: But the Mulroney government wins that election, although actually if you do the kind of popular vote totals, the opposition NDP and Liberals actually win the majority of the vote, the popular vote, which suggests perhaps that the majority of Canadians were not in favour of free trade, but the way the first past the post system works, the Mulroney government merges with, with the government, and the free trade agreement passes through.

[Music playing]

JP: What would you say happened to the fears that we would, you know, be taken over through the back door, right? By the Americans? What do you think happened to those fears in the intervening years after NAFTA and before, I guess 2016, probably, right? Before the first Trump administration?

ASA MCKERCHER: Yeah, I think, you know, this kind of anti-Americanism is a big part of Canadian identity. Whether it's kind of Margaret Atwood's kind of fears of the way she paints America in The Handmaid's Tale is a kind of a, you know, evil theocracy as opposed to Canada, which is kind of a land of freedom, and that kind of thing. So, there's that kind of, you know, that kind of negative view of America.

SOUNDCLIP

MARGARET ATWOOD: We've been told this deal is just about money. It's not just about money. Money talks. And right now, it's screaming that it should not be allowed to hog the conversation.

ASA MCKERCHER: But there's kind of a just a sense of being different. And I think that's the way Canadians have often defined ourselves.

SOUNDCLIP

MARGARET ATWOOD: What we call culture is not just the opera. Culture is the fabric of society. It's what kind of beer you can buy. It's what you hear on the radio. It's how the society works. That's what Canadians tend to mean by culture, and that's what we feel is threatened by this deal.

ASA MCKERCHER: And I think what we see in the wake of the kind of NAFTA, NAFTA in particular, 1983, NAFTA goes through is a kind of a way to sort of define ourselves as being different from America, not necessarily in a kind of a, you know, openly hostile way. There's a certain element of kind of complacency there. And sometimes, you know, we might, we might, you know, we spend so much to finding our health care system is different from Americans. So, we might not look at other countries that do health care in different ways. But we, we have this kind of focus on there. And I think this is where we see the rise of a kind of a nationalism that someone defined around some of those consumer products, the Hudson's Bay red mittens at Olympic time, or the mania around Tim Hortons defining ourselves that way. You know the Molson Canadian I'm Joe Canadian beer ad.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip of Molson Canadian "I'm Joe Canadian" commercial]

ASA MCKERCHER: We find ways to define ourselves differently from Americans. And so, I think what we, what we take for granted, I sort of took for granted maybe till now, is the idea that there will be a North America economy and that so we better get on with it. And it's largely been beneficial for, for a lot of Canadians to have lower prices and products and, and to greater labour mobility, and a whole variety of other kinds of things. And I think what you're seeing then, the kind of popular anger that many Canadians have expressed over the last few weeks is a disbelief that, you know, there's this sense that we took this chance in 1988 toward free trade. And now, the Americans are, are ripping up that, that agreement and the, and the kind of consensus that had seemingly been built around that between our peoples.

JP: And I suppose they're even now ripping up USMCA, right? Like, the agreement that we negotiated with them in good faith several years ago. Do you think there's a part of us here that was too complacent? Like, you know, I see in 2023, nearly 77 per cent of our total exports went to the U.S. That's not a very diversified economy, right? Yeah. And like, what would you say to that?

ASA MCKERCHER: Yeah. I mean, in the 1950s, John Diefenbaker, the Conservative leader, wins election in 1957. And then, there's another election called in 1958 on a essentially, a policy warning about the kind of overreliance on the United States, which he blamed on, on the Liberals who had been in power by that point for, for 20, 20 years or so, and said, essentially, we need to find new partners elsewhere. The problem was: That was just a really difficult thing to do. You know, geography is, is really important. And there were many other countries that were looking to trade with Canada. You know, the Europeans at that time were forming what becomes the European Union, they were really far more interested in trading with themselves. Flash forward then to the 19, early 1970s, and Richard Nixon imposes actually a 10 per cent tariff on, on all goods coming into the United States, including from Canada. And the Canadians, you know, lobbied them in Washington to be exempted from that, and the Nixon administration backs away. But then, Richard Nixon came to Canada the following year and gives a speech in the House of Commons where he essentially says, you know, "I thought you guys wanted some separation. I thought you guys were worried about, you know, being too reliant on this." Wasn't this tariff, basically he says, "Wasn't this tariff what you guys kind of wanted to make some distance?" And he says, you know, very pointedly, "There is no special relationship between our countries. We were just two countries which have our own interests." [JAYME POISSON: Ah], and that spooked a lot of Canadians. And so, the government, you know, undertook a report. It eventually sort of popularly called "The Third Option" because they ran through three options. One was kind of closer relations with the Americans. One was sort of the existing kind of status quo. And the third option, the one that government settled on, was to diversify our trade economic prospects with all countries all around the world. And it doesn't really try that very hard. And so, subsequent governments have sort of, you know, tried to do similar kinds of things. Under Stephen Harper, to show this is like, you know, a part of nonpartisan kind of consensus, Stephen Harper, you know, and his government signed a record number of free trade agreements with other countries. Most importantly, perhaps the TPP, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and the free trade agreement at the European Union to, I think, diversify Canadian economy. I mean, particularly in the wake of the financial crisis in 2008. And, you know, the number you just said, you know, indicates that, you know, we still got a lot of, a long way to go. And so, I think there is this complacency in the business community amongst government that [inaudible] you can't really blame them. Geography is important. America is a huge, huge economy. Why not trade with them? But I think it's now times like this where we're seeing, you know, the chickens come home to roost.

[Music playing]

JP: I just want to pick up on that quote you mention from Nixon that there is no special relationship between our two countries. You know, I think for a lot of Canadians, they don't feel that way. Right? And the Prime Minister hit on that last week in his speech when he talked about how we have fought and died with Americans in wartime.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: From the beaches of Normandy to the mountains of the Korean Peninsula, from the fields of Flanders to the streets of Kandahar. We have fought and died alongside you.

JP: And I know that you talked about this a little bit at the beginning of our conversation, but I wonder if you could elaborate for me a little bit more on how conflict has shaped our relationship with the U.S.

ASA MCKERCHER: Yeah. I mean, obviously in Canadian history, Canadian history with the United States, you know, conflict has sometimes been a bad thing. So, we obviously had the War of 1812, you know, and the kind of memories of that.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: 200 years ago, parts of North America erupted into battle. Soldiers from here and around the British Empire successfully defended Canada from American invasion.

ASA MCKERCHER: And Mr. Trump, interestingly enough, mentioned apparently to Mr. Trudeau that, you know, we had, we had burned down the White House. And so, that was one of the reasons he viewed as a national security threat when he imposed tariffs on us in 2018. So, but, you know, the Americans were a threat for a while, but then obviously, in the 20th century, they become allies. They become allies briefly during the First World War, they become allies again in a much more concerted manner, obviously during the Second World War. And what we see there during the colder years is the kind of growing close, close cooperation in terms of defending the continent, as the Prime Minister noted in his comments. You know, the Canadians took part in the Korean War. And so, you know, we become allies, but we also stand aside from the Americans sometimes. So, Canadians, for instance, you know, were not a part of the Vietnam War, obviously, you know, of the, you know, the Iraq War [JAYME POISSON: You mentioned that, yep] more recently, we kind of stand apart.

SOUNDCLIP

GEORGE W. BUSH: I want Canada to do what it feels comfortable doing in Iraq. That's that. And that's what I've told the Prime Minister before. Canada is an independent nation. Canada makes it's, makes it, can make its decisions based upon her own judgment.

ASA MCKERCHER: And so, you know, it's kind of a complicated thing. But the you know, the kind of sentiment around, you know, wars are hugely important kind of events in human affairs. Obviously, you know, a lot of blood and treasure is kind of spent on these things. People give their lives for these kinds of things. And that forges a lot of sentimental kind of ties that Mr. Trump, you know, as Mr. Trudeau noted, you know, seemingly kind of throwing, throwing away. So, I think that gets to, gets to some of the popular anger, I think, that many Canadians feel a sense of disbelief that, you know, we are allies and, you know, at this very moment means a uniform to whisk our American allies at NORAD and other places. And Mr. Trump seems to be, seems to be giving the middle finger to that kind of, that kind of history. And so, that strikes many Canadians as being, you know, not right.

JP: The other thing I want to ask you about, obviously, people matter in history. Two characters, right? And you mentioned earlier that there was animosity between Diefenbaker and JFK. Trump loves to mock Trudeau. He calls him the Governor of the Great State of Canada. It doesn't seem like he likes him very much. Has a relationship between a Prime Minister and a President ever been this ugly?

ASA MCKERCHER: Yeah, probably. Just not in public. And so, you know, you talked about, you know, Kennedy and Diefenbaker. It's clear they didn't, you know, they kind of got on a little bit in 1961, but then, they had a falling out, you know, late 1961 into 1962, over, over nuclear weapons and some other issues. And to the point where, where Diefenbaker and this kind of famous story. Kennedy, when he'd visited Ottawa in 1961, he, he dropped essentially a briefing note out of his pocket that was a kind of a series of bullet points of issues he wanted Canada and Canadian help on. And Diefenbaker kept this, and in 1962, there's a kind of a diplomatic dispute between the Canadians and Americans on some issues. And Diefenbaker called in the American ambassador to Ottawa and says essentially, you know, "If you guys don't back down, I've got this little list that, you know, is your President's briefing note, and I'm going to publish it in the press, or leak it to the press and could approve that, you know, this, your President is trying to boss us around this kind of blackmail." And Kennedy responds, I'm not going to swear on your, your family podcast here, but responds with some good Boston Irish expressions to describe the Prime Minister, and, and the relationship never recovers. You know, the Nixon, you know, his again, four letter words that he liked to describe Trudeau with. Actually, it became public only because the Watergate tapes or the presidential tapes were released as part of the Watergate thing. He kind of thought Pierre Trudeau was this kind of airy fairy philosopher, king sort of person who needed to come down to the real world and deal with real world matters. So, you know, these things were often in private. What's different about Mr. Trump is, and maybe this isn't surprising, given he's a Twitter troll, and he's comporting himself in the presidency in that manner. And so, that's what's new. I mean, I don't know what Richard Nixon would have done if he had, had access to Twitter, but maybe it would have been a similar story to Mr. Trump, who knows?

JP: This has been so fascinating. I could really ask you about this all day. Obviously, none of us really know where this is headed exactly. But do you think that what we're seeing right now is likely just another pendulum swing in our history together? A tension point? We've talked about many of them today. Or do you think that this is something fundamentally different?

ASA MCKERCHER: Sure. Yeah. I think, you know, historians make really bad profits. So...

JP: So do journalists. Yup.

ASA MCKERCHER: I would think. Well, fair enough. Yeah. I would think if this is a pendulum shift, it's toward not a decoupling of Canada-U.S. relations, because, again, the geography is important. The United States will remain a huge economic market that will want to trade with. You know, Canadians will still wanted to fly down to Florida, and go to Disney World or Las Vegas. But I think, you know, if this is a pendulum swing, we'll see us trying to build some of those more serious bridges to other countries. I think we're already seeing movement on things like interprovincial trade. I think we're seeing a swing back to a bit more of a kind of a flag-waving patriotism on the part of Canadians. So, I think we're seeing if there's a pendulum shifting, it's in those kinds of areas. We'll still, you know, be allies probably of America, unless we become the 51st state, in which case it'll be a different issue. But I think, you know, if we remained a sovereign country, it'll be as a sovereign country more aware of our over-reliance on America. Probably not trying to, to fall into the complacency we've had in the past.

JP: Just before we wrap up, I just want to know, you know, you seem to be taking this idea that we could become a 51st state at least somewhat seriously, right? Like, just listening to you right now. I think for a lot of people, it sounds so ludicrous that it's not serious. Do you think that it's actually a serious threat?

ASA MCKERCHER: Well, the Prime Minister does. And he's been in the room with Mr. Trump. And, you know, I, there's a interview that Global News did with Steve Bannon, who's a sort of a Trump whisperer within the MAGA movement. He seems to be talking about Canada not becoming a 51st state, but at least becoming a kind of a protectorate of, of the United States, in part for access to critical minerals and the art of defense.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE BANNON: If you're part of that market, which is what I think he's talking about in making you a state, or agreeing to a state, then you're in, then you're inside the golden door. The compelling logic of the 21st century geostrategically and geoeconomically is going to make this at least something that Canadian people have to weigh and measure and consider. Look...

ASA MCKERCHER: I mean, it's a pretty wild interview in that sense. And I think, you know, maybe they don't want to bring us in as the 51st state, but I think they're interested in, in keeping us close in the kind of great power rivalry that they envision with China. And so, I think we really need to think about what that means in terms of, I think Nordic Canadians don't want that. And so, I think that means we really need to get serious about diversifying our economy, and doing more to, to defend ourselves, not in an actual shooting war, which I don't think would happen, but just having the presence in the north and the presence elsewhere on our overseas and our airspace, to just be the kind of markers of a sovereign country. I think that's perhaps the task that is facing us today. But, you know, I don't think the Marines are going to be marching into Ottawa anytime soon. You know, Jayme, I, I just don't know. [JAYME POISSON: Yeah], I just don't know. Yeah, yeah.

JP: I think that's as good a place as any for us to end this conversation. Asa, this is great. Thank you so much.

ASA MCKERCHER: Thank you.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right. That is all for today. I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: Theme]

For transcripts of this series, please visit this page.

Canada-U.S. tension, a history - Transcript

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