Matthew Green was hostile, standing in mud and 'hiding' near bridge, officer tells hearing

A Hamilton police officer charged with making an improper street check with a black city councillor says he can't say specifically whether he's been trained to avoid discriminating against people.

Could it have been that he was just a black man checking his phone by a bridge and you were questioning him?- Wade Poziomka, lawyer for Matthew Green

Const. Andrew Pfeifer is in the midst of a disciplinary hearing over an incident with Coun. Matthew Green. Pfeifer told the hearing he doesn't think racism, racial profiling and other biases exist in policing. 

"I don't think so," he said. "Not in my experience, no."

Pfeifer spoke publicly about an incident with Green for the first time Thursday, testifying in his defence in a Police Services Act misconduct hearing in downtown Hamilton.

Pfeifer said Green was aggressive, hostile and "hiding" next to a bridge when he stopped to question him on a cold day last April.

Pfeifer said when he stopped, he was worried for the Ward 3 councillor's wellbeing, and thought he might be dealing with someone in some kind of mental health distress. He said there are no official parameters for when an officer can do a "wellbeing check."

'Does racial background motivate you?'

The incident happened as Green waited for a bus near the corner last April. Green says an officer questioned him for several minutes, making him feel "psychologically detained."

I observed him standing in a puddle of mud.- Const. Andrew Pfeifer

Pfeifer said he later thought and wrote in his officer notebook that the person was "trying to bait me" into doing something unprofessional when he was repeating questions back to him and frowning.

"Could it have been that he was just a black man checking his phone by a bridge and you were questioning him?" asked Green's lawyer, Wade Poziomka.

"I don't know," Pfeifer said.

But Bernard Cummins, the officer's defence lawyer, followed up and asked, "Does racial background motivate who you stop?"

"No, sir," Pfeifer replied.

Pfeifer said Green was "angry, aggressive and hostile." That tone, along with other factors, made him continue questioning Green, he said.

The area has a number of social service agencies, Pfeifer said, which suggested to him that it's "saturated" with people with mental illness.

Pfeifer's testimony came on the third day of a heated disciplinary hearing to determine whether he did an "arbitrary or unjustified street check." Pfeifer is charged with discreditable conduct under the Police Services Act.

About 30 people filled the hearing room in the Sheraton hotel Thursday, some to show support for Green and others for the officer.

'A puddle of mud'

Pfeifer said that he has never "carded" anyone. He also said he's unfamiliar with the form Hamilton police once used to document interactions on the street with people who aren't under investigation.

But questioned by Brian Duxbury, lawyer for the Hamilton Police Service, Pfeifer said that he did ask for Green's name and note that in his officer notebook.

In cross-examination, he also conceded that some of the descriptors he now uses regarding the situation — that Green was standing in a "puddle of mud" and "hiding" behind the Claremont Access underpass, and that he beat his chest — were not written verbatim in the notes he made after the interaction that day.

"I observed him standing in a puddle of mud," Pfeifer said.

"You want us to understand that that was strange," Duxbury said.

"Part of the reason to stop him, yes," Pfeifer said.

"That critical description you give us today is not in your notes," Duxbury replied.

"He was standing in a puddle of mud and I observed him standing in a puddle of mud," Pfeifer said.

"Your notes made that day are just wrong, then?" Duxbury asked.

"No," Pfeifer said.

'He wasn't free to move along'

Duxbury asked Pfeifer whether he thought Green would feel free to go based on the officer continuing to question him, including asking if he was from the neighbourhood.

"Anyone on the street would think, 'Oh my gosh, this process is just starting all over again,'" Duxbury said.

"No," Pfeifer said.

"You're asking the question," Duxbury said. "In asking that question, he wasn't free to move along."

"No, I won't grant you that," Pfeifer said. "I'm in a car 40 feet away from him."

'Go make good notes'

After the interaction, he and a fellow officer went back to Central Station, where Pfeifer told his supervisor what had happened, that he thought the person might have been Coun. Green and that there was a chance there would be a complaint made based on Green's tone.

He said his supervisor told him to "just go make good notes."

When he was writing his notes of the interaction, he remembered saying to the other officer something like "Oh my God, I can't believe this happened," he told Poziomka.

"I was just kind of in shock about the whole situation."

He said he didn't think he was in trouble, but that he thought there was a chance there would be a complaint filed against him.

He said when he realized the person might be a city councillor, he thought there was a chance that "I don't think he actually needs my help."

But he admits he still asked once more, "Are you OK?"

The hearing continues Friday with another witness for the defence.

Cummins, Poziomka and Duxbury all declined to comment following Thursday's proceeding.

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