Calls to clear the backlogs in Canada’s courts

Guests: Cassandra DeMelo, Rick Woodburn

SOUNDCLIP

I was so angry at the accused, and now I'm just as equally angry at the system. I'm scared of the fact the defence is going to start asking me certain times and dates. We're talking four years ago. I just need closure. We just need this to end.

MG: That's Susan Forsyth. Her son, Jeffrey Johnston, was stabbed to death in Oshawa, Ontario, in 2017. A trial for the accused was supposed to begin in 2020, but has been pushed to 2022. It is just one example of court delays related to COVID 19. Krystal Mann lives in Windsor. She was seriously injured in a car crash in 2014. She has launched a civil lawsuit, but her lawyer says a trial isn't expected until 2023.

SOUNDCLIP

I can't provide for my kids on my own. They had to remortgage my house. I still live with chronic pain. I'm limited to what I can do. I kind of feel like I'm trapped in purgatory because of something that was completely out of my control. I feel like I've been forgotten and I've been left behind like what happened to me doesn't matter. Like, I no longer possess any type of value. The longer this takes, the more delays, the longer it takes to be heard. I don't get closure.

MG: backlogs in the judicial system where already a chronic problem in many parts of Canada, but now nearly 20 months into this pandemic, lawyers say things have reached a critical point. Cassandra DeMello is a London, Ontario, criminal defence lawyer and vice president of the Criminal Lawyers Association of Ontario. Rick Woodburn is a crown attorney in Halifax and president of the Canadian Association of Crown Counsel. Good morning to you, both.

RICK WOODBURN: Morning, Matt. Good morning, Cassandra.

CASSANDRA DEMELO: Morning.

MG: Good morning. Cassandra DeMelo, what are you seeing in your practise in terms of clients who aren't getting their day in court because of these pandemic related delays?

CASSANDRA DEMELO: Certainly, we're seeing a critical point in terms of the number of files that I'm managing on day to day basis. That's because, of course, of the backlog and the files that have not been able to move through the closure. But then also I'm just seeing in general an increase in the severity of the type of charges that we're seeing do not because I think there's an increase in crime, but because the files that I do have left are are, for the most part, the serious ones, the ones that don't necessarily have an easy answer. And so the only options really left are some sort of resolution where if my client denies the allegations and that's not really an option or a trial, and if we can't get to trial, then we're just stuck in limbo.

MG: I mean, just briefly, give me a sense as to to what the biggest area, perhaps within those types of cases you might be seeing.

CASSANDRA DEMELO: So definitely domestic violence or what we call intimate partner violence now, those are very common cases. In our practise.

,Unfortunately, they're a bit run of the mill. And what happens there is that we oftentimes will have two parties that disagree about what happened and so we need a trial. But then there's other times, too, where the parties are maybe on the same side. They didn't intend for the police to get involved in the manner that they became involved, and by that, I mean to lay charges. They thought, perhaps by calling the police, that something more minor or more, you know, temporary might be a solution that comes out of that evening and instead now their families are separated. You know, the accused persons are sometimes not able to see their kids in a meaningful way. And those parties might actually want to see resolution happen sooner, but it's it's getting backlogged because of the just overall backlog of the system. The other one that I'm seeing a lot of is and this is one that's very common where we can't go to a resolution, a sexual assault trial. So you have a party that saying they were sexually assaulted and you have the other party, my client saying it didn't happen that way well or didn't happen at all, perhaps. Well, then at that point, the only option is trial. And of course, at that point, the crown attorney is probably feeling their hands are tied to and they need to proceed to trial absence, the accused pleaded guilty. So again, we need a route to trial and a route to not guilty in those circumstances.

MG: Rick Woodburn, what are you seeing in Nova Scotia? How many cases in that province are backlogged?

RICK WOODBURN: I think Cassandra hit the nail on the head all around, she gives a good overlay of the the lay the land with regards to delay and how it's affecting. And I can tell you that in Nova Scotia and across the country, we're seeing massive delays. The cases that were before before COVID are piling up the ones during COVID are piling up. And now we're just seeing that wave of cases hitting the courtroom all at once, like, say, in Nova Scotia that we have well over a thousand cases in provincial case, a court that are over the Jordan timeline.

MG: And we should explain what that is. I mean, the Jordan timeline offers what a reasonable time frame for the gap between charges being laid in a trial.

RICK WOODBURN: And that's that's where I met. The Supreme Court of Canada stated that 18 months for a provincial court trial, from time of charges laid until the finishing and 30 months for Supreme Court trials. Now that's your murder trials. A lot of your sexual assault trials and more serious trials have 30 months, but we're seeing we're seeing it going far beyond that 30 months.

MG: What happens if things go beyond that timeframe? I mean, the court has said that that needs to be the window. So if you exceed the window, do those charges get thrown out?

RICK WOODBURN: They do. And we've seen it. We've seen murder charges being thrown out. We've seen sexual assault charges being thrown out, drinking and driving, you name it. Those cases have all been thrown out because of delay. And what we're expecting is in the future when these cases start hitting those Jordan timelines, that these cases too, be thrown out.

MG: As a crown attorney, how frustrating is that for you, but also for those who are in the system?

RICK WOODBURN: Frustrating is probably not not the word for all of us, including defence lawyers. We all got into the justice system for a reason because we want to see justice served. So seeing a case come to fruition is what we want. We want that to happen just as much as the defence does. For us, it's very, very frustrating because that's where we're going to use for victims. It's devastating. You can imagine what it's like to go to the parents of a child that's been killed and look into their eyes and say, we don't have the resources to bring your sons alleged killer to trial.

MG: Is that what it is, it's about resources?

RICK WOODBURN: it's about resources, it's about having courtrooms, it's about having judges, it's about having legal aid and defence counsel. It's about having more grounds to assess these cases. And don't forget, we're not- when we review cases that we review them for a reasonable prospect of conviction. So some of these cases, if we have the time to look at them, we can withdraw them. So if we have the time, some of these cases wouldn't even make it to court because we could we could assess the assess the cases and decide whether or not they should even go forward. And that's really what Cassandra was talking about is the Crown's need time in order to review these cases.

MG: Have you seen, Cassandra, in Ontario cases being thrown out because of the Jordan threshold being exceeded because of the pandemic that we're still in?

CASSANDRA DEMELO: Unfortunately, I will differ a little bit here on my answer. So Jordan is a bit more complicated than that. It's not an automatic thing. So once it hits the threshold of 18 months or 30 months, it's not like the charges are just miraculously dropped. And that's something that my clients often need education on as well. Instead, what happens is that we, as defence counsel, have to bring a special motion or an application that asks the court to stay the charges because they were not brought to justice fast enough. And I can tell you in Ontario, COVID has been given a lot of room for an explanation as to why the Crown was not able to get the matter to trial in the 18 or 30 months. So my experience in Ontario, at least, COVID has not- just started having cases thrown out left, right and centre. Instead, courts have been quite generous with their approach to COVID and the fact that that is not built into those aged 30 months because it was beyond everyone's control. And as a result, now not only do not have a path to trials oftentimes, and that is getting better now. Now as we're getting out of the pandemic, that is getting better. But my point is that not, for a while, not only did you not have a path to a trial, but you also had court saying that 11 b the whole calculation is different because COVID has just changed it. COVID has changed us all for, it's what this whole thing on its head.

MG: But we're almost 20 months into this pandemic. I mean, we're not in a lockdown anymore. In Ontario, the courts are running either in-person or virtually. So why is this still such a big problem, Cassandra?

CASSANDRA DEMELO: Part of the problem with jury selection. So for the bigger trials, the ones that really eat up a lot of time. So we're talking, you know, five day trials, two week trials, three week trials, sometimes longer to really clear those cases out of the system. You need a judge and a jury if that's what the accused decides they want. In the case of murder, it's a requirement. So what you end up having is a trial that needs, at a minimum, 14 to 20 people in the room. And how do you do that with social distancing and making sure that everyone is safe? And now with vaccination requirements? And so it's just been a constant hurdle of trying to figure out, Okay, now we're at this point in the pandemic now people are starting to get vaccinated. What does that mean? Are we going to require jurors to be vaccinated? And so every incremental step forward that we take in the pandemic then has to be reassessed in the context of the criminal justice system to say, OK, now what can we do with that now for us? And so jury trials are really only now this fall, really getting into the full swing of things. And even then, we're seeing these bizarre situations happen where, for example, where we're suddenly being told on the eve before a trial that we're going to have a virtual jury, meaning that the jury will be in the courtroom or in the courthouse, but in a different courtroom watching on a virtual feed while the rest of us play it out in the courtroom, which wasn't what anybody expected. So then now we're arguing applications suddenly about whether or not that's correct. And I can tell you, defendants aren't really fans of that. So, we're just continuously coming across problems as we, every time we think we're making a step forward, it's like, OK, what, have we considered this thing or that thing? And it just shows everything right down to a halt again.

MG: So how do you ease the backlog, then, Cassandra, what do you do to try and move this forward?

CASSANDRA DEMELO: So there's a few things that I have those recommendations. The first is a properly funded legal aid system that is going to help our vulnerable and our indigent meaning or marginalised accused person to be represented in the system. There are far too many unrepresented people in the system that are clogging it up as well, and they simply cannot afford a lawyer. And the threshold for legal aid is so low that even legal aid has not been able to give them a certificate for a lawyer. A properly funded legal aid system that includes a lawyer from start to finish of your matter, whether that's a trial, whether that's a guilty plea, whether that's resolution of some other sort, that is necessary in order for the backlog to be cleared. And the Chief Justice where they're actually quoted this recently, it's a quote that goes around every once in a while and it's an important one. Every dollar spent on legal aid saves six dollars somewhere else in the system. So it's an investment in our future and an investment in period, not just the backlog, but also clearing up some spending by later for us. The second thing I would recommend is, as we've already talked about this morning, more crown attorneys, more people in the courtrooms, clerks and judges and all of the players there just needs to be more people to help move the system along. And finally, what I really need to see is from both crown attorneys and specifically probably the attorney general and also from judges, more of a focus on trying to get to a resolution that doesn't necessarily mean a guilty plea. We cannot just simply be trying to coerce people into guilty pleas when the onus is on the crown to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. And so what that means is I need the attorney general to tell his attorneys what cases need to go and needs to be an instruction. It can't be so flimsy. It can't be so full of discretion. It needs to be, these are the cases we don't have time to worry about, and they're low end. So get rid of them. And let's focus on the big fish here.

MG: Rick Woodburn, when you're representing the crown. So do you agree? Is it time for, in some ways, a different approach to which cases actually get brought to trial?

RICK WOODBURN: And Cassandra's right immediately, Jordan, the court is starting to give us a pass because of COVID with regards to the Jordan timelines. However, we do have these cases piling up and pushing us into the future. I have cases set down into 2023, so we're looking at maybe not tomorrow because we're still reeling from the COVID. But in the future, you're going to see the courts less and less likely to accept the fact that the government had time. They had time to put these resources into place, and they didn't. So this is the time to act now before these these cases start getting thrown out. Cassandra's right fully fully funded legal aid system, like we have in Nova Scotia, certainly cuts down on costs and aids to the defence bar here. Also, we need more judges, more infrastructure, more courtrooms, um and of course, more crown.

MG: I've heard people compare this to the health care system. In some ways, what you're saying is things that people have been saying for a while. But the pandemic put a spotlight, a broad spotlight on on the cracks that were already there.

RICK WOODBURN: And and you're right, before COVID, you would if you go back, you'll hear me saying the same thing over and over again. With regards to resources, the justice system has been crumbling. But now we're starting to see those cracks get larger. And as we pushed these massive piles of cases through, we're going to see it start to crumble even more. And Cassandra's not wrong when she says the AG is going to have to make some decisions. They're going to have to make a decision on what cases they want us to prosecute. Do they want us to prosecute human trafficking, sexual assault, drinking and driving? Do they want us to drop of all frauds?

MG: What kind of choices that I mean, when we're trying to figure out what justices

RICK WOODBURN: It's your you hit the nail on the head. What kind of justice system do we want? Do we want the one where we're just going to throw out all low end charges to make everything better? Or are we going to build a proper and justice system that everybody can feel comfortable in? And I'm going to say the cornerstone of a democratic society is their justice systemand it can't be ignored.

MG: I was going to say Cassandra raised the issue of access to that justice system through legal aid. The Ontario government has announced something like $72 million over the next couple of years to help clear up the backlog. But one part of this is something called the judge led Intensive Case Management Court Cert system. It's a mouthful, but what it means, essentially is that defence lawyers get a flat fee to represent people without lawyers. Is that the way, Cassandra to ensure that people have some representation?

CASSANDRA DEMELO: Absolutely not. So let me paint a quick picture here for you. In 2019, legal aid budget by our government, our provincial government was cut by $130 million or so that first year, and that continues every year since then. So in the last few years, we're talking about nearly a half a billion dollars in cuts to our legal aid system. And then this year, because of COVID, we're being thrown $72 million not for legal aid. And I'd be very clear that's towards the system as a whole in Ontario. And so that's for the addition of more crowns. We're told us for the addition of more court staff. All things that are necessary is already heard me say today. And so a very, very, very small fraction of this action to be determined. We're not even sure of that 72 million is now going towards the Jeremic certificates is what we've been calling in for lack of a better way make a lot of a mouthful. And so the Jeremic certificates are only helping those people to get to either a guilty plea, a resolution or your trial is now set off. You go into the wind as an unrepresented person. Good luck to you.

MG: We're just about out of time, but the belief is that that would help people in some ways plead guilty that it could. It could pressure somebody to plead guilty.

CASSANDRA DEMELO: Exactly. And it's it doesn't have to be a direct threat, right? Imagine being an unrepresented person facing the eyes of the judge and you're being told you can have the help of a lawyer if you plead guilty. But otherwise, if you want to go to trial on your own, you're on your own right. That's not a choice.

MG: We just have a few seconds left in. Rick Woodburn talked about what kind of justice system do we want? Is it that basic of a question to you, Cassandra, that we are deciding in some ways what the justice system in this country will look like, how we get out of the system?

CASSANDRA DEMELO: It's time to reimagine the justice system in a very general way. What does justice mean is going to differ depending on the person? And we need to start looking at ways outside of the formal criminal justice system to look for accountability for offenders and to look for ways of resolving the ills that happen in our society. And that starts from a top a bottom up approach, meaning grassroots projects, more funding for social programmes, more funding for our schools, more funding for all of those things. And then that gets at the root causes of crime. It really just we just require reimagining at this point of our justice system.

MG: We'll see whether this is an opportunity to do that. It's great to speak with you both this morning. Thank you very much.

RICK WOODBURN: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

CASSANDRA DEMELO: Have a good day. Thanks so much to both. Great speaking with you.

MG: Cassandra DeMello is the vice president of the Criminal Lawyers Association of Ontario. Rick Woodburn is president of the Canadian Association of Crown Counsel. He was in Nova Scotia. Thoughts on this would be welcome. You can email us at thecurrent@cbc.ca, your CBC news is next. And then,

SOUNDCLIP

Indigenous peoples had access to the land, water and resources than there would be no poverty, and things would be very different in this country.

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MG: Clayton Thomas-Müller is a fascinating young man. He joins us coming up in six minutes to talk about the link between indigenous justice and environmental justice. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

Lack of control over land leaves Indigenous communities exposed to pollution, says activist

Guest: Clayton Thomas-Müller

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MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, protesters in Sudan are calling for a return to democracy after a military coup in 30 minutes, we'll hear from one protester fighting for her country's future. But first, Clayton Thomas-Müller fighting for a people and a land.

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SOUNDCLIP

[Drumming and singing]

MG: That's Clayton Thomas-Müller, he's singing and drumming as part of a march against the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion in Burnaby, British Columbia, in 2018. He's organised scores of demonstrations like this around the world, many of them with thousands of participants. He's a senior campaign specialist with the environmental organisation 350.org. He's also part of the Mathias Colomb Cree Nation in Manitoba, and his new memoir is called Life in the City of Dirty Water A Memoir of Healing. It details his experiences growing up in Winnipeg, surviving abuse, discrimination, juvenile detention and gangs, and then turning that into a lifelong pursuit to protect the environment and indigenous rights. It is an incredible story. Clayton Thomas-Müller. Good morning.

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Hey, good morning.

MG: What is it like to listen back to to the sound of that demonstration?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Well, that was a that was a really chilly morning at the Burnaby terminal in Vancouver, the headquarters of Kitna Morgan. There, a site where there, you know, at the end of this, the construction site, the proposed construction site of the Trans Mountain Pipeline, and I remember feeling excited and both scared. And, you know, but it was a beautiful day. And that was part of a series of protests that we did where we actually did beat Kinder Morgan, send them back to Texas with their tail, with the between their legs. But of course, you know, Justin Trudeau turned around and bought the pipeline.

MG: I can ask you about that a little bit later on. This is a book. It's a beautiful book because it's your story, but it's the story of your connexion with a lot of different things, including the land. Tell me about where that starts for you and your home community and what the land meant to you.

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: You know, one of the things that I always hold close to my heart is the, you know, the the incredible lengths that my mother went to when I was a little boy to take me back home every summer to my grandparents, travelling to my great grandparents up near Pukatawagan First Nation in northern Manitoba. You know, it was here where some of my earliest memories are, you know, holding my great grandmother's hand while she made medicine by the fire outside of our cabin, walking the trails with my great grandfather, Edward Hart, checking the trap line, you know, you know, checking the rabbit snares. And of course, watching my uncles pull fish from from the net. And, you know, having fresh fish every day and picking berries to us, kids almost puked out in the meadow. You know, this was a place where I had my first opportunity to just see the incredible abundance and majesty of our traditional territory. And of course, even as a little boy, hose memories of summer and tape are line juxtaposed against, you know, Winnipeg winters. It made it even that much more special because back then, winter was really Winnipeg winter. You know, I don't think climate change had set in quite as hardcore as yet.

MG: Your mom left the community for the city. What was she looking for?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Well, when my mother moved to Winnipeg, you know, she she was pregnant with me at the time, she was living it in Thompson. She was very young at the time, 16. She talked to the social worker there in Thompson, you know, the social worker encouraged her to get an abortion. And you know, my mother, having gone to Indian residential school and you know, she was she grew up Catholic. And so that was definitely out of the question. And the social worker did convince her that going back to Pukatawagan and having a baby as a single young teenager would be very difficult. And that perhaps going to Winnipeg and seeking out opportunity in the city might be more beneficial, not just for her, but but for me too.

MG: What do you, when you look back at that time, I mean, what did you notice about the indigenous communities in the city at the time?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Well, it was mixed. I mean, my memories of that time are of my grandparents or my aunties and uncles, you know, she had quite a few brothers and sisters at that time, before she got pregnant with me, she had been raising them because of the, you know, her parents were well, they were absent. You know, they were they would go on long drinking binges and disappear. And so my mother, for the most part, raised her brothers and sisters, and they followed us to Winnipeg, actually when she moved down. And there was a lot of drinking, a lot of domestic violence at my grandparents house. And so there's both light and dark memories because I also remember my mother taking me to powwows at the Indian Friendship Centre. I remember Main Street in Selkirk Avenue. You know, these streets were bustling. I always remember Selkirk in the morning smelling like buns from Gunn's bakery. You know, you could smell all the doughnuts and all the buns being baked, super early in the morning.

MG: She sounds like a real force. And she worked really hard in that time. I mean, again, to connect you with culture. Why do you think that was so important for her?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: I don't know. Blood memory, perhaps wanting something better for me, I guess. I mean, she did it all. You know, she raised me both traditional and also Christian. I have memories of going to church as well. And but, at a very young age when I was just a toddler, she did take me to receive my spirit name from the late elder George Daniels, from Long Plain First Nation. And he gave my name and my colours. And, you know, over the years, my mother would always, you know, light smudges and, you know, do all kinds of things, you know, she's just always there. And I think, more importantly, like then just actual ceremonies, she would talk to me, ever since I was just a kid, about how residential school affected her and you know, about her stories about surviving. Every subsequent years she went to residential school, the more deep into alcohol her parents got. And you know, she would tell me about how hard it was for her and her siblings. And you know how difficult it was to to to have to go to the dump at Lynn Lake and dig through the garbage of that mining town, you know, to try and find something to eat for her siblings, you know, like really hard core suffering. And then I'd be sitting there eating a meal. She had just cooked me well, she would be telling me this stuff. And so, you know, she made sure deeply ingrained, you know, the values of our Cree culture, but also the importance of doing better, you know, in the next generation because of what had happened here in Canada to native people in the policy of residential school. So that was deeply ingrained in me at a young age. And of course, you know, there was a lapse, though. I think there was a lapse in that time and I eventually found the culture and language again in my teenage years.

MG: There's a scene that you describe in your book in which you're in school and you talk about, you know, what your mother went through and what her family went through. You're in school and you're asked by a teacher, Are you ashamed of being Aboriginal? Tell me about that. I mean, it's breathtaking to think about, but tell me a bit about what was happening there.

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: I don't know what the heck was happening there or what the heck was going on in this. It wasn't a teacher, actually, it was the prince. Yeah, it was. It was a school, an elementary school in Dawson Creek, B.C. at the time. We were staying there for a year and this principal just called me out of the blue and was like, Yo, I want to have a conversation with you. And I was like, OK, what did I do? It's like, Oh, nothing, nothing just coming to my office. And I was like, OK, and you know, there was nobody there, no social worker or school counsellor or, you know, expert outside expert or anything. It was just this principal. And yeah, he just started asking me questions. And the question I really significantly remembered was, do you feel inferior to the other students here in school being native? And I got this real sick feeling in my stomach, and I said, young man, I don't know what your deal is, but I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to ask me questions like that without my mom present. And I got her number memorised at work. I'd like to call her right now. And you know, she's going to freak out on you, basically. And so I called my mother and she came straight over from the hospital. My mother's, a registered psychiatric nurse, and she came, gave that principal, you know, a load of her mind and said she ever talked to my kid like that. What the hell's your problem?

MG: What did it tell you about the system that you were in? Not just the education system, but the broader system around you?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: I think from even before that, you know, kindergarten, I started to have a sense of systemic racism and how different rules applied to indigenous kids. I was part of the first generation that didn't go to residential school in my family and that was integrated into the Canadian public school system. And, you know, we didn't have the National Guard here in Canada when racial segregation ended for natives. You know, we just had to show up at these schools. And unfortunately, I think a lot of us experienced a very heavy and destructive and very subversive form of racism that was very harmful. And so it didn't surprise me.

MG: You tell stories in this book of when things went - you describe it as spiralling a little bit and things went sideways in your life and you end up being drawn into gang culture. You end up in juvenile detention and you end up in jail as well. What was going on there? I mean, how would you describe that spiral?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Well, life was pretty good for a few years there. You know, we did well and we ended up doing a stint in northern British Columbia in terrorists and and that was one heck of a challenging place to live, you know, because if I wasn't fighting the racist redneck kids, I was getting beat on by the commission and the nysc. And you know, all these all these big, huge B.C. native boys that thought I looked different, you know, and and I was the skinny little Cree boy from from Winnipeg. But I had still deep relationships with my cousins back home, and - she's my cousin. But I considered or more of a sister - she got killed in a car accident by a drunk driver. And that that really devastated me. And already I was getting into trouble. I was kind of losing interest in school again because of a lot of the racism I was facing, not just from the students, but from the faculty. I just didn't. I just didn't feel right, you know, and I would always get suspended because I would challenge these teachers on the curriculum they were teaching. I read a lot, you know, ever since I was a little boy. And, you know, at the time, my best friend who I considered a brother, you know, and his brother got in a car accident and his brother passed away. We were like, You know what? The world is screwed up. We both got expelled from school and we just kind of went nuts and started getting into crime, drinking and rob. And basically, we would go back and forth between terrorists and Prince Rupert and, you know, break into houses and gotten all sorts of trouble. And that's how I ended up in juvie and after juvie, the province of B.C. sent me back to Winnipeg to live with my mom, and I tried that for a couple of months. And I ended up getting kicked out of the school I was going to in Winnipeg after juvie and my mom said, You know, you're not working, you're not going to school, you're not living with me. And so I was I was homeless for a while in Winnipeg and. And so I called my dad, who I didn't really know. And I said, I never talked to you really or ever asked you for help in my entire life, but you're my father and I'm pretty pitiful right now. I'm living in the streets and I sure could use some help. And he said to me, So well, my boy, I'm not going to send you money. But if you want to work, I'll help you work. And he gave me a number to call, and so I called that number and it was my brother, Johnny, who I just connected with the summer prior. But then I went back to [unintelligilbe] to go to court and ended up in juvie. And he's like, Holy [unintelliglbe], where the heck are you, man? What? I'll come get you right now. And he came and got me, and he's with these other big Indians, and that's how I learnt, you know, I got introduced to Manitoba Works. I said, you know, dad said, you can give me a job. He's like, Oh, he told you, that. Eh? OK. Well, all right. Well, look it up. So I got a job, you know, running a drug house, actually, like a storage house for the Manitoba lawyers, that was like my first real hardcore job was where my brothers and my dad hooked it up.

MG: You end up spending time in jail and you say the jail didn't reform you, it politicised you.

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Mm hmm.

MG: What do you mean by that?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Well, you know, you asked about the school system and my awareness of of systemic racism within the school system, or at least that's how I interpret it, but where where I really, really learn about how things were set up against natives, how things were kind of skewed was when I was locked up. And because of the the crimes I had done in northern B.C. as a juvenile. And I noticed that there were a lot of young native kids, there were also in there and that they were getting significantly abused and that the guards would do nothing to protect them. I saw a lot of that. And it really started to bother me. But for the first couple of months, I was like, Just keep my head down. I was a big guy when I was in juvie, so just keep my head down. And there was all kinds of bullying happening in the unit. And so we devised a plan. We got all the little native kids together and we said, you know, like by ourselves are weak, but together, nobody's going to know what's going to mess with this. And so we picked a fight with the toughest white guy in the unit who was best friends with the main guard and always getting favourites. And we set up a circumstance where, you know, I took his chair at the TV room and he came up and tried to take it back. And all the little native kids and my buddy Cohen came up and were like, No man, is there could be any more of that? There's just going to be peace. You know, from here out, we're all going to get along. Everybody's going to, you know, have a chance and the nice cheer because they put one nice armchair and then all plastic chairs in the TV room just to create unnecessary tension. And then they favour the white kids, you know? So and there was peace, you know? But I'll never forget the day that I got out and I was looking at all those little native kids who my buddy Cohen and I were protecting, and they had a real, sad look on their face. And I never knew what happened to them, but I sure hope that they made it.

MG: You say in the book, These are your words. You can't be Indian and not be political.

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Well, yeah, of course you're born political, here in this settler colonial state of Canada if you're native, you know, life is is political no matter what. You know, every interaction, you know, people, whether it's the medical system, whether it's the prison industrial complex or the education system, within the workforce, within different industries, indigenous peoples, we face a lot of systemic challenges that other people benefit from who are not indigenous. And, you know, we've got a long way to go. That's why these apologies and, you know, these days of truth and reconciliation are a bit more putting the cart before the horse. How are we supposed to have forgiveness for one hundred and fifty years of residential school and the horrors of that that are now being unveiled in such a traumatic way? YWith all of these thousands of children from unmarked graves coming home? We have to talk about reconciliation and to native people, that means land back. And indigenous peoples in Canada hold less than one percent of the country's landmass under our control. And if we just had control like treaties that have been signed and agreed upon, and we do have control in the places where there are no treaties, it's just that the provincial governments interpret that in a different way. And the federal government let's the grey area exist over title and jurisdiction. But if indigenous peoples had access to the land, water and resources, then there would be no poverty and things would be very different in this country.

MG: How do you see that shaping the work that you do in the environment as an environmental activist?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Everybody on Earth has the right to work, live, pray and play in a safe and healthy environment. But in the United States and Canada, that is not the case, you know, and environmental protections and enforcement mechanisms do not apply in communities of colour for the most part, especially in indigenous communities. And here in Canada, if you take a map of all of the most toxic, destructive polluting industries, the biggest climate changing industries in places like Sarnia, if you lay that map out and you lay a map of all the meaty hamlets, all the Inuit settlements, all the 600 plus First Nations, you see that every one of those facilities is, for the most part, directly adjacent to one of our communities. And so environmental racism in Canada is very much a red and white issue. There are definitely poor black communities and other communities of colour and even poor white communities that face environmental injustices here in this country. You know, it's not defined directly by race, just disproportionately. But class certainly plays a role in that, too.

MG: How do you square that with- in those communities, there are First Nations that would support whether it's work in the oil sands, whether it's mining, whether it's logging because it helps people find a way to make a living?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Well, native people are not a monolith, right? Like this pan Canadian indigenous concept of We're All Just Indians is racist in itself. We're very diverse. So we've got those evil, capitalist, greedy people in our communities, too, but I just want to make money. And so, of course, we have conflict and debate within our communities. But the difference between municipalities and urban centres and First Nations, especially in this country, is that we have the right to self-determination and sovereignty rights that are in the Canadian Constitution to hunt fish and trap inalienable rights that cannot be interfered with by provincial jurisdiction or by industry or by the federal government. You know, settlers have a really hard time with that, but that's how Canada was made.

MG: You have two kids, two sons?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: I do.

MG: You smile when I ask you that. What kind of world, given the work that you do, but also the story that you tell in this book, what kind of world do you want to leave for them?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: I got a 15 year old and a 12 year old, and I want them, not just them, but like all kids to have the right, the experience, the access that I had when I was a little boy. Like in my lifetime, we used to live in the bush and like, live as part of the ecosystem. And I'm forty four years old now and I remember my grandparents just straight up or bush people. You know, people will come from miles. You know, they would emerge from the forest into the meadow where a cabin was with things to trade for medicines for my grandparents. I remember that. I remember my grandfather saying, Look at this. My friend came to visit and he put this like butcher paper on the cabinet table and he opened it up and it looked like a human arm. And I was like, Oh, what's that? He's like, Oh, ha ha ha. Supper. Supper. And he goes, Go look outside. And I went and looked outside, and it looked like Arnold Schwarzenegger was hanging in there but skinned. And it was. It was a bear, you know? And that's what, you know, we eat Black Bear where I come from. And I want my sons to have that kind of thing, you know, just freedom. Complete freedom. And at the rate that our climate is destabilising, that water is being polluted, that you know, that Canada continues to based its economy on mega extraction with no concern about the indigenous communities that it's impacting. I'm very concerned that they're not going to have the same thing.

MG: The story that you tell in this book at times is a really harrowing story, and you've kind of hinted at some of that and some of the really tough times that you personally went through. Do you ever wonder why you survived?

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Ancestors. Ancestors, culture and language. Your ancestors are always with you, especially in the darkest moments they're are surrounding you, they're protecting you. That's our world. And Cosmo Vision as cree people, you know, as a nation are bad people. You're never alone. Your answers. My ancestors are right behind me right now. I could feel them as I do this interview and talk to you. And so, you know, some say it's going to take seven generations to heal from residential school. And you know, so for me, you know, that's that's that's how I'm here. That's how my mother's here, still. That's how my sons are here. And we're going to keep going.

MG: I'm glad you made it, and I'm glad that you wrote this book. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you.

CLAYTON THOMAS-MÜLLER: Thank you.

MG: Clayton Thomas Mueller is a senior campaign specialist with 350.org. His new memoir is called Life in the City of Dirty Water A Memoir of Healing. It's a kind of guy you could talk to for a couple of hours, I think, and you'd just be scratching the surface as to what his story is. Coming up. After your regional update, Sudan finds itself once again in a battle for democracy. We'll speak with a woman who is on the front lines of the protests and talk about how that country could get back on the road to democracy. That's coming up in a few minutes time. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio O ne. Stick around.

Protests engulf Sudan after military coup

Guest: Karin Marley, Asadoya, Jonas Horner

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. We are heading to Sudan next, where protesters have been on the streets after a military coup. But first, we are going to take a few minutes to talk about our special coverage on climate change. We have stories in the works from COP 26, where the high level work is being done to address climate change. We have stories from around the world where people are living day to day with the effects of a warming planet. Tomorrow we are dedicating the entire programme to the climate migrants, people being forced to leave home because of everything from drought to floods. Those people are looking for safety and they're looking for food, and their displacement is on a scale that we have not seen in our lifetime. So to fill you in on what's ahead and to follow up and where we started this week, I'm joined by the current's senior producer Karin Marley. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Matt. Let's start with the response to Monday's special over a barrel Canadian energy and the climate emergency. Because we got a lot of mail.

MG: That is true. We did. Indeed, on the programme, we met some people who rely on Canada's fossil fuel industry and people who are working to transition to less polluting economy. One of our guests was the longtime environmental activist Tzeporah Berman. She had an interesting proposal a non-proliferation treaty to phase out production of oil and gas. But even she says this is not a simple idea.

SOUNDCLIP

I think we in the climate movement have made mistakes by getting so excited about the potential of cleaner energy systems and new technologies that we may have glossed over in the past. You know how hard it was going to be to acknowledge people's reality and people's fear? You know, I learnt that we really needed to look for common purpose. We had to have compassion. To be honest, it's not going to be easy and also honest that we've all benefited from the fossil fuel industry. We've all benefited from the last many decades.

KARIN MARLEY: So many listeners appreciated hearing that idea of finding common ground. Corey Smith from Waverly, Nova Scotia, wrote, I appreciate the theme that we need to engage in meaningful conversation, not polarisation. So the oil and gas industry representatives insulting our intelligence with ridiculous spin is not helpful. I would also like to suggest that the magnitude of the climate change problem is such that we citizens cannot sit back and listen to the scientists and the oil industry debate. We all need to have climate change on our daily agenda.

MG: Wayne Goronzy says, I just heard your guest put forth the argument that we need to stop scaring the children and work together to solve the issue. Let's not forget that without these scare tactics and pressure tactics, these oil companies would be doing business as usual, pumping emissions into our atmosphere at unprecedented rates. It is the pressure tactics used that have moved these green initiatives, not peace, love and kumbaya attitudes.

KARIN MARLEY: Many listeners wanted to talk about specific actions individuals can take. Karen Wallace Dudley from Calgary, wrote Many years ago we looked into installing solar panels on our roof, but we were told we had too many mature trees to produce much energy. We re insulated our house, installed better windows and high efficiency furnace. We drive a hybrid vehicle. We use cell phones, computers, televisions that are years old. We've removed two thirds of our law and replaced it with native perennials. We eat less red meat. I'm tired of being told to write my politicians. I need practical, workable advice. It is my maybe misguided hope that many, many people making small changes will help while we wait and wait for our governments to come to terms with climate change.

MG: This next one is from Kathleen O'Hara, who is inspired to hear Tzeporah Berman and frustrated to hear what she calls the fossil fuel industry's pie in the sky promises of high tech clean solutions. She goes on, Carbon capture and sequestration is an expensive pipe dream. We can't capture and bury enough carbon to save us. The industry is pushing the high tech solutions to cut emissions per barrel, but they are expensive and not developed yet. The problem is we aren't funding the growth of green tech fast enough.

KARIN MARLEY: Riley Coppicus in Whitehorse writes We are heavily reliant on fossil fuels as there's little in the way of public transportation within Whitehorse and no buses or trains going out to the smaller communities. We also have tank heated houses, so everyone either uses propane or oil. We're also heavily into mining. We would have to spend billions, if not trillions, across the north to get ready for no fossil fuel use.

MG: The North does have some specific challenges with this, and this is part of the country that's probably facing the most acute and dramatic climate crisis. So next week, we will delve into that on a show that crosses the territories, looking at changes to transportation, hunting and other ways of life.

KARIN MARLEY: I'm looking forward to that one, and we have time for one last email from Mike McGraw in Sussex, New Brunswick. He believes our inaction is hurting more than just our environment. He says consider the hundreds of millions of climate, refugees and people too poor even to flee their climate problems. Yes, our transition away from oil is going to hurt us, but not transitioning is hurting millions of others far worse. We in the global West are mostly to blame for the climate crisis. We have an obligation to bear some of the hurt.

MG: And once again, one of our listeners is raising an issue that we will explore more in depth. Tomorrow on the programme, we bring you another special edition of The Current. We're calling it the climate migrants. We will hear from people like Tsena Andor, deputy director of the NGO SEED Madagascar. Her country is in the midst of what the U.N. believes is the first ever climate change created famine.

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The Malagasy people are eating rice three times a day and we growing rice in this part of the island as well. So it looks like the rice field is like a football place where children is playing on. It should be full of water, but it's dried like a clay, like a sun, on the rice field. About 10000 people have emigrated from that part of the island to here in the hope to find even water.

MG: More on the climate migrants tomorrow on The Current, we'll hear from people in Africa, Asia and Latin America.

KARIN MARLEY: And then on Friday we'll hear from Mark Carney, former governor, of course, of the Bank of Canada. Now U.N. special envoy on climate action and finance. And he'll talk about progress at COP 26 on the money front.

MG: What's to come? Karin, thank you very much.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: Karin Marley, senior producer of the current. And of course, we love to hear your thoughts on anything you hear on this programme. Get in touch. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or shoot us an email thecurrent@cbc.ca.

[Music]

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. The United Nations Human Rights Council will hold an emergency session on Friday, looking at Sudan. This comes after a deadly crackdown on mass rallies.

Unidentified: [sc]

[Protestors chanting]

MG: Thousands of people in the country, have been taking to the streets to protest the military takeover. It was only two years ago when Sudan ousted its dictator, Omar al-Bashir. And now the transitional government that was formed in the wake of that has been dissolved. Phone and internet services are largely down and a state of emergency is in place. The general in charge claims the move was necessary to secure peace in a politically divided country. Asadoya is one of many pro-democracy protesters demonstrating against the coup for safety reasons were not using her real name Asadoya, hello.

ASADOYA: Hello, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm OK. How are you? What is life like for four people in Sudan right now?

ASADOYA: Life is currently one big cloud of uncertainty. The only thing that is certain at the moment is that the people have had enough of decades of military oppression and refuse any kind of negotiation or mediation with any members of the Military Council and Security Committee. There is a complete state of civil disobedience declared by the people of Sudan and their resistance committees. The shops are closed, streets are empty, the banks are closed but are going to be open for two days for people to receive their salaries and those who have reached the disobedience, the civil disobedience. On our working, for example, the airlines have been completely shunned by Sudanese civilians and diaspora, both online and offline, and added to what's called the list of shame.

MG: The list of shame.

ASADOYA: Currently it's pretty crazy over here.

MG: You mentioned offline and offline, and I said in the introduction that that, you know, phone and internet services mostly are down. How are people getting information about what's going on right now?

ASADOYA: Well, within the communication and media blackout, the blackout Sudanese diaspora are actually playing a very critical role in ensuring the revolution keeps progressing successfully, according to the benefit of the people. And since local calls and communications are completely cut off for us, information about the safety and well-being of our own family and friends, we would only be able to get that information from those outside Sudan because we can receive international calls, but we can not have any local calls or internet. And you know, for example, I'm only able to know that my family members living literally 20 minutes away from me are OK only when my sister calls from the UK. You know what I mean?

MG: Take me back to last week. How did you first hear about the coup?

ASADOYA: Well, it's actually a funny story. I woke up to start my working day very normally, only to find that the internet isn't working and to find many missed international calls upon. I'm answering one of them, I came to find about the military coup and how they have committed this violation of internet blackout, as well as kidnapping our prime minister and wreaking violence deadly havoc in the country. After and shortly before they also cut off local calls, I tried to make calls and just check up on everyone I know, you know, especially those who are who are a part of the civilian transitional government and the resistance committees to see if everyone is okay and if anyone has been threatened, kidnapped or arrested.

MG: And when you heard that, I mean, how concerned are you about friends and family and people you know?

ASADOYA: Well, I was extremely concerned, like I was even concerned for myself and for everyone from those and the civilian transitional government to those who are digital activists, to those who are, you know, in any position where they have influence, you've basically got concerns for everyone because it's very violent. And for the most part, you have no idea what's happening, both like here and outside. So it's just a complete state of uncertainty and just worry because anything could happen at any given moment.

MG: We heard those protests at the beginning of our conversation. What was it like to be in those protests?

ASADOYA: Well, it was absolutely incredible to be in one place with that many people, you know, from different backgrounds, different areas of Sudan, different socio-economic levels, different ages, although they were mostly younger generations of women and men. People have different ideologies and political differences who all took to the streets sharing one common goal, which is to lead peaceful protest, demanding immediate end to the violent military rule. And ironically, the militias only responded with more violence. Teargas, live ammunition, kidnapping, illegal detainment and unconstitutional decisions that violate human rights, such as, you know, for example, creating a nationwide communication and internet blackout.

MG: You felt like you needed to leave those protests. Why did you feel like you needed to get out of that situation?

ASADOYA: You know, at some point, at some point we during the protest, we would start getting calls from internationals and Sudanese diaspora telling us right now the protest and these out of town are getting attacked by tear gas and bullets, and they've got this many people. So, you need to get out of there, so you would always just be on the lookout because like I said, anything could happen at any given moment.

MG: The general that has led this military coup, General Abdel Fattah al-Burhan, says that this coup was necessary to avoid a civil war that was being sparked by political division. What do you make of those comments?

ASADOYA: Well, first of all, there is no such thing as a necessary military coup. Second of all, the only political division that the people of Sudan are observing and facing is between the public, a majority of civilians and the military. There are only two divisions people in military other than that so have literally placed all ideological political differences aside, as soon as the coup happened and and everyone just agreed on one common goal an immediate end to the military involvement in politics and handing over full power to civilians.

MG: Do you believe that these protests will will push the military out? Do you do you really believe that?

ASADOYA: Well, to be honest, I am very hopeful this time, though. Generally in Sudan, for the past few years and since the 2019 revolution, it's been very hard to stay hopeful, given Sudan's terrifying presence and uncertainty and traumatic history of politically and religiously extreme military dictatorship that has most significantly harmed women, children and vulnerable groups and all states of Sudan. As you know, in addition to the killing, they also face - women and children - also face daily crimes of sexual violence, domestic abuse and complete lack of safety inside and outside of homes, particularly those in areas of military conflict, power struggles and those of lower socioeconomic positions. So we certainly are more hopeful given, this time there is no one leading the revolution. Last time there was the Sudanese Professionals Association. This time the revolution is leading itself. The people are leading the revolution with the support and guidance and coordination of their resistance committees. So this time it's a lot more organised and we are a lot more hopeful and we all just have a common goal and majority rules at the end of the day.

MG: What is it like to be back in the position that the country was essentially two years ago? I mean, it was on the road to democracy. It had it had thrown off the shackles of a dictator and seemed to be progressing toward a democracy. And now this happens. What does that like to be to be in the midst of and to see that unfold?

ASADOYA: Well, we thought that was like we thought 2019 was the kind of thing, you know, you go through once in your life and it was hard and then we move on and we were very close to finally achieving the goals that we've set for ourselves years back. But this has literally just pressed pause and on everything and. But at the end of the day, even though we didn't see it coming, it was an inevitable outcome of civilians sharing power and doing politics with violence, overemotional extremists and military men. So it wasn't inevitable evil, but at least now we can get it out of the way. At least now the people have unified their common goal. And you can see who the real villain is in the whole situation.

MG: Do you see a future for yourself in the country?

ASADOYA: That's very hard to try. I'm sorry at the moment because like I said, there is a lot of uncertainty. But as the rest of younger Sudanese generations, I would, and even before this happened, we're all just trying to make this country a better place, a more a place that's more up to date with the times, a place where women and children can feel safe, and we're all just trying to help. So we're really just hoping that this time is the final coup we have an end to Sudan's violent history. We hope this could be a new page for Sudan and a new page, you know, and a new role models. We could be a new role model to other African countries who are essentially facing the same demons that we are.

MG: We aren't using your real name. How worried are you for your own safety?

ASADOYA: To be honest, I am worried. You're always in a state of danger, so it's always better to be safe and it's always better to have measures of safety. But at the end of the day, nothing is certain in this country and and one can only hope to stay safe. You just never know. And especially like being being an activist and being a woman, generally, there is always more dangerous when you're a woman in this country because it's a very patriarchal, military minded society that we live in. And there's always danger to everyone, but especially to women and especially to younger women.

MG: Stay, stay safe.

ASADOYA: I do my best to stay safe. Thank you so much.

MG: Stay safe. And I'm glad to talk to you. Thank you very much.

ASADOYA: Thank you very much. Have a great day.

MG: Asadoya is an activist in Sudan. As you just heard her say, she is concerned for her safety, so we are not using her real name. Mediation efforts to resolve the crisis are currently underway. The U.N. special envoy to Sudan says he is hopeful that a clear path forward will emerge in the coming days. Jonas Horner is the deputy director for the Horn of Africa project and senior analyst on Sudan at the International Crisis Group. He is in Nairobi, Kenya, this morning. Jonas Horner, hello to you!

JONAS HORNER: Hi there. Thanks for having me.

MG: You were in Sudan just days before the coup and left a couple of days before things happened, what were you seeing leading up to this?

JONAS HORNER: Yes, well, what we saw was, in some ways, a soft coup attempt that presaged the main event. You saw the civilian section of government start to split up and there was an attempt to have a friendly civilian government, a civilian government friendly to the military's interests. At least that was that was that was created and they were contrived anti-government protests and sit ins outside of the presidential palace and the cabinet trying to sort of give some sense that there was a popular will to see the government dissolved. You also saw intense pressure on the prime minister to dissolve government and really new levels of belligerence shown by a key military figure figures to execute two diplomats that I had spoken to in the days leading up to the coup.

MG: Why did this happen now? I mean, why did the military seize power now?

JONAS HORNER: Well, this is the expression of fears that the military have held really since the revolution beginning in 2018 and culminating in 2019. You saw military fears of a handover of power of the country's sovereign council, which is essentially the executive body that that was meant to be handed over to civilian control after a specified amount of time in this in this transition, and the military are also concerned about potentially facing justice for crimes committed during the Bashir era and even since then, during the revolution, they're concerned about losing control of companies that they owned that hold sway over key sectors of the economy as well. You have currently this hybrid military, civilian transitional government that has been in place for the last two years, and I think the prospect of losing control of that government, leaving the sovereign council to civilian hands, the military worried that there might be a new push to see them face justice and to reform the security sector and lose their key hold in the economy.

MG: So when you hear the general who's behind the coup saying that this was done to avert civil war, what do you make of that?

JONAS HORNER: I would assess that as a spurious claim. You know, it's also disingenuous, given that General Burhan was himself in some ways were head of state as head of the sovereign council. So, you know, any failures of the government would have should have been laid at his feet in particular. So any sort of criticism of the government, which was the reason given for the coup because of underperformance, you know, really, really was self-criticism. You know, no civil war was was was imminent. The military had been a key part of the government, but they've been dragging their feet on reforms, particularly around the economy and sabotaging the economy even even more directly. And one example of just how this took hold is that in the weeks since the coup has taken place, you've seen prices suddenly dropping for key commodities and scarcity for some of those commodities disappearing, too. So, you know, magically, the military enabled a reduction in scarcity and a reduction in inflation rates.

MG: I want to ask you more about the economy in a moment, but when it comes to the democratic process, there were elections that were planned for 2024. What happens to that plan now?

JONAS HORNER: Well, the military declares as it took over, that it wanted to move elections up to July of 2023, which is some shortening of of of the electoral calendar, but to be honest, the elections as they were planned instead were always on a rather short horizon. You know, important technical aspects were required. For example, a new census was required to really sort of situate people and understand where people lived and then how many Sudanese indeed there were in different areas for four voting reasons. You know, the other thing to point out on elections is there's a particular question about the timing. The shorter timeframes generally are seen to be better for established political entities with which the military potentially has a strong set of relationships. A longer horizon makes allows newer political entities that are created as a result of the revolution to maybe get a foothold and to find their way into organise to be to be effective competitors in those elections.

MG: In the meantime, how precarious is the economy in Sudan right now and the lives of those who rely on parts of that economy to function well so that they can get food, keep the lights on and live the lives that they want to live?

JONAS HORNER: Yes, well, look, the economy is probably the main question in Sudan's transition. If the country and its international partners can't pull the economy through to the other side, then probably none of the political aspects that matter matter anyway. But the country has seen rampant inflation and significant increases in hunger. Just shortages in goods. But it must be said also that in the last couple of months before the coup, there had been a notable reduction in inflation rates. The balance of trade had improved. Sudan had secured for itself a status as a heavily indebted, poor country, which would have allowed it to take care of its debts. And I think in part to go back to an earlier question. Those signs of success will have worried the military who relied or premised their approach to this transition on the civilians failing in the face of this myriad of obstacles.

MG: And so in the wake of the coup, you have the United States and the World Bank talking about suspending aid. What impact would that have on the people of Sudan?

JONAS HORNER: Well, those moves will certainly squeeze things. But the military in its equation around the coup was betting on other external actors, particularly from the Gulf and potentially even Israel's stepping in to make up for this shortfall. But the problem is that that approach doesn't really help. That is really a Band-Aid. It won't address Sudan's deep structural economic problems, which Sudan's international partners from Brussels, from Washington, from London and elsewhere had been so keen to to to address it in a more concerted and systematic fashion.

MG: As we came to air this morning, there were rumours of a potential deal or the hints of a deal to try to resolve this situation. We know the talks are ongoing. What's the latest in that as you understand it?

JONAS HORNER: Sure, there are several several tracks of negotiations underway. They feature, you know, Burhan, the coup leader, a key paramilitary leader, academics, business leaders, the civilian forces for freedom and change and also the United Nations. And key questions within those negotiations are around, for example, the military's ongoing place in the transition. You heard from your previous guest. YThere's real lack of patience to see the military continue within the transition. There are also questions of whether the prime minister will be restored. That is very likely and then whether his cabinet will be restored as well. But the concern, I think at the end of the day is that perhaps this accord will be another elite bargain that doesn't necessarily take into consideration the broad concerns on the street that your previous guest outlined and potentially any agreement that comes out of these. These higher level negotiations may be may find significant pushback on the street.

MG: Just in the last minute or so that we have, we mentioned that U.N. body will be meeting on Friday. What's the role of the African Union in this and trying to bring some peace to the situation in Sudan?

JONAS HORNER: Well, International Crisis Group would genuinely like to see the EU take a key and leading role in mediating this, this this real pickle of a problem the Sudan now finds itself. Unfortunately, the EU has been a little bit slow to get to the ground. They should be just arriving today that the Horn of Africa envoy Olusegun Obasanjo, the former Nigerian leader, should be arriving now. But the EU did suspend Sudan despite an initial push back from Algeria and Egypt, and that is often a pretty clear and strident indication from the continental body. But we would really like to see the EU take up. The role that it took during the revolution in the African Union was integral to bringing about the transitional agreement agreement and brokering the deal between civilians and military.

MG: Jonas, good to speak with you. Appreciate your insight into this. Thank you very much.

JONAS HORNER: Many thanks.

MG: Jonas Horner, deputy director for the Horn of Africa project and the senior analyst on Sudan at the International Crisis Group. He was in Nairobi, Kenya, this morning. That's The Current for this Wednesday accused. Up next on CBC Radio One will leave you this morning with some music from Sudan. During the 2019 pro-democracy revolution, there was a song that was kind of everywhere in that country. It was surrender by the late Sudanese legend Muhammad Wardi, kind of an anthem of sorts with protesters, and it once again is inspiring people. This is that song Surrender covered by contemporary artist Zoozita. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

The Current Transcript for November 3, 2021

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Calls to clear the backlogs in Canada’s courts

Lack of control over land leaves Indigenous communities exposed to pollution, says activist

Protests engulf Sudan after military coup

Wednesday November 3, 2021 Full Transcript

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