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The Current Transcript for November 25, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: For people who are really struggling with some of the emotions and the losses as a result of the pandemic or anything else, I do find it can really help to name it as grief and really help them understand that they have a right to grieve.

MATT GALLOWAY: There has been a lot of loss this year, from family members falling to COVID to the shuttering of a business you invested everything into. And the nature of this year means that people haven't been able to come together, as we normally would, to grieve that loss. In 30 minutes, the push for a national grief strategy in the heart of this pandemic. Speaking of those small businesses.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: If back in March you told me, hey, pick one month you're allowed to be open this year and be closed the other 11, it would be from now until January 1st.

MG: It has been grim for those so-called mom and pop shops. Coming up, the very real existential threat they face now with the holidays looming and calls growing for people to stay home. We begin though with our national affairs panel. Toronto is in lockdown. Alberta is clamping down as well. Cases are spiking in Manitoba. And there are calls on the federal government to do more, particularly when a vaccine arrives. How long will Canadians be left waiting for that shot? Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: theme]

As COVID-19 numbers skyrocket across Canada and more regions enter lockdown, our national affairs panel looks at how well governments are responding

Guests: Catherine Cullen, Niigaan Sinclair, Tyler Dawson

MG: Yesterday, Canada once again saw a record: 56,860 active cases of COVID-19. The actual numbers are important, but more so is the stark picture that those numbers paint. This, after several days of some provinces Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia, each setting records of their own. Even Atlantic Canada, until now safely bubbled, is seeing some areas returned to lock down. It's a trend that the country's top public health officers have spoken of recently.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: This is like a snowball rolling down a hill, growing bigger and faster. And it will continue unless we implement strong measures to stop.

VOICE 2: We've got to flatten the curve as fast as we can. If we wait, you know, it is not going to be helpful.

VOICE 3: Some people have spoken about this pandemic as a marathon with a far distant finish line that I've come to think of it really as an Ironman race, a swim and then a bike and then a marathon. The next leg is not quite in sight, which means we need to gather our focus and our energy together now.

MG: Frankly, that sounds exhausting. It's a message the prime minister was pushing as well yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We've seen restrictions increase across the country over the past few days and Canadians are taking extra care to stay home. But I want to remind you, nothing that we do today will bring the numbers down this week. This week's numbers were already determined by behaviours last week and the week before. What we can affect today is what our country looks like a week, two weeks from now.

MG: For their thoughts on how political leaders are handling this crisis right now, I'm joined by our national affairs panel. Catherine Cullen is a senior reporter with the CBC's parliamentary bureau in Ottawa, Niigaan Sinclair is a columnist with the Winnipeg Free Press and Tyler Dawson, the Alberta correspondent for The National Post. Good morning to you all.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Good morning.

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Bonjour.

TYLER DAWSON: Good morning.

MG: The prime minister offered a bit of a reality check and perhaps some bracing news about vaccines yesterday. We'll get to that in a moment, but let's start in Alberta. The premier, Jason Kenney, had been criticized for not doing enough or even being visible in recent days as COVID spread in that province. Last night, he declared a state of public health emergency and announced some of the toughest restrictions in Canada, including the shutdown of schools from Grades 7 through 12 beginning next week. Have a listen to what the premier said.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: If we do not take the right measures, a growing number of Albertans will have to wait longer and longer for important surgery, many of them in pain and suffering. To be blunt, this will cost lives as well, reducing life expectancy. We cannot let that happen. These measures are tough, but they are necessary. They are needed to protect our health care system from being overwhelmed and to ensure that Albertans can access care for medical needs besides COVID-19.

MG: Tyler Dawson, I have spoken with a number of health professionals, front line ICU doctors and nurses in Alberta who have been calling on the premier to take steps like this and more for weeks. Why do you think it took so long for the Premier to impose these restrictions?

TYLER DAWSON: I think the simple answer probably is that the government has been very concerned about the balance between the economy and health and and also there's the ideological part of it where they wanted to they kept saying give Albertans the opportunity to do the right thing. So I think when you combine those two factors that explains the delay in getting around to these sorts of measures.

MG: Do you see that balance still being struck? I mean, as I mentioned, schools from grades 7 through 12 are going to be closed. They'll be online learning, but casinos are still open. Restaurants and bars are still open in the province. So what is the premier trying to do in terms of threading the needle there?

TYLER DAWSON: Yeah, I think he is trying to keep as many places open as possible. Casinos obviously down to just slot machines, restaurants and bars, indoor dining still at 25 percent capacity. So, you know, I think they're trying to look at these things and say, what can we keep open? What is the safest possible way to do this? And then will it have that much of a health impact? The other thing to keep in mind, of course, is that even if the contact tracing system in Alberta is overloaded, the evidence that the government is working off of is that most of the spread of COVID-19 is in private social gatherings and not at restaurants or hair salons or casinos or schools even.

MG: Catherine Cullen, what do you make of what Premier Kenney announced yesterday?

CATHERINE CULLEN: I mean, I thought there were a lot of interesting things in there. We do have to say, I think it is curious to talk about a state of public health emergency and still have casinos open for slot machines, indoor amusement parks, bingo halls, all at reduced capacity, admittedly. But you know, that isn't just Alberta, Matt. I was speaking to the chief public health officer in York region, in the Toronto area where they have asked health officials in Ontario to put off putting lockdown measures in place in that area. He was saying, we want people to stay home, don't leave your house unless you have to. But again, restaurants there are open with limited capacity. I think across the country we really have seen and it is certainly a message that is coming from the federal government and argument that saying that it is about achieving a balance between the economy and health, that is really a false dichotomy, because, of course, if people aren't healthy, there's really not much of an economy. Right? As COVID gets worse and worse, people can't leave their homes. And so to see those two things as being in opposition to each other maybe isn't the right way to look at it. At the same time, you can imagine that if you're a small business owner and you're seeing these growing restrictions and perhaps you are seeing, for instance, people lining up at Costco, but you're being told that you have to close your doors, it may not feel like a false dichotomy. So it is certainly, I think, a very trying situation. And it was very interesting to hear Premier Kenney last night to hear this Conservative premier invoking the charter, which is not an argument I have particularly heard even from Justin Trudeau, but saying if we are going to infringe upon people's rights, we must do it to the most limited degree possible. You look at what the prime minister is saying. It's only been a couple of weeks since he implored premiers and mayors to do whatever they could in terms of new measures to try to protect people's health and said, you know, if it's a question of financial support, we can be there. Let us know what kinds of supports you need.

MG: Niigaan Sinclair, let's talk about Manitoba province under lockdown. There are a number of questions that are being asked about what happened over the course of the summer that perhaps led that province and people in the province to take their foot off the gas. The premier was speaking with Rosemary Barton on the weekend. Have a listen to this exchange.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: If you have had more people died in the past week than in the past seven and a half months, I, forgive me, but it doesn't sound like your plan worked over the course of the summer.

VOICE 2: Well, that's great, except that, Rosemary, to be fair, you haven't come up with a single idea in this interview that would have made this plan work better.

VOICE 1: Premier, I am not an elected official. Premier, I am not an elected official. I'm asking why you didn't move faster to protect the people of your province, sir.

VOICE 2: Rosemary, I'm trying to explain to you that we kept some of the most stringent restrictions of any province throughout the summer, that we've been preparing. Our testing has quadrupled. Our capability in terms of notifying people has been bolstered and strengthened. All of this was the result of working all summer to prepare for this thing.

MG: Niigaan Sinclair, what sort of pressure is Brian Pallister under?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Well, just through that interview, we heard the rest of the country gets a tiny bit of a taste of what we in the media have been dealing with here with the government of Manitoba. I mean, the cases here are out of control to the to the tune of around 500 or so a day, new cases a day, 14,000 total. What that translates into to get the rest of the country just understanding, it's about 1 in 100 Manitobans have the virus. And what that means is the test positivity rates around 14 percent of the people going into and getting tested and in some cases in Manitoba, in Steinbach for example, in the south, we're looking at a 40 percent test positivity rate. That's absolutely out of control. We've gone from the best rates in the country, some of the best rates in the country to the worst and it's in large part due to the inaction of this provincial government and keeping the economy opening way too aggressively, keeping open for way too long and then also setting up the kind of false dichotomy that we spoke about between economy and health.

MG: Is the sense that from people in the province? I mean, in the media is one thing, but is the sense from people in the province that the leadership has lost control of this.

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: I think generally what's been seen from this provincial government is the whole set of wagging fingers, a lot of shaming and what's often called to the press conferences, the updates on COVID-19 by the province of Manitoba is usually Brian Pallister declaring who are the bad Manitobans. And it's become a very divisive situation amongst the public in terms of people who generally are acting well, working hard, especially the small business owners who are doing their best at a very dire circumstance and then there's a small set of Manitobans who are fighting those restrictions, anti-maskers for example, they're gathering in rural Manitoba. But for the most part, the real distance between the way the government is operating and the way Manitobans are acting in their everyday life.

MG: One of the things we've heard from leaders across the country is that the vaccine will be our way out of this. The prime minister speaking outside Rideau cottage yesterday dropped a bit of a bombshell about how long Canadians will have to wait for the vaccine. Later, he was pressed on that during question period. Have a listen to this exchange with the conservative leader, Erin O'Toole.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Mr. Speaker, the prime minister told the House that Canadians would be the first in line to receive the vaccine. Today, he admitted we're going to be behind many countries, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Germany. Reuters is even reporting that Mexico will receive a vaccine before Canadians. How many more months will it take to flatten the curve? Because this prime minister has been unable to rapidly secure a vaccine.

VOICE 2: Honourable leader of the opposition might not have been following this too closely, but Canada is actually being lauded as one of the countries that has achieved the best and largest portfolio of vaccines of potential vaccines for its citizens. So Canada stepped up and has secured millions of doses of vaccines for Canadians that will be arriving in the coming months.

MG: Later the federal procurement minister said that no company will even ship vaccines to this country until Health Canada has approved them, potentially causing even more delay. Catherine, how much of a problem is this going to be for the government if people in this country see other folk around the world getting the shot and we're still waiting?

CATHERINE CULLEN: I think it is a fascinating question, Matt. I'm not going to predict how Canadians are going to react, but you have to think it is something the federal government is cognisant of. I think you were right to describe what the prime minister said yesterday as a reality check. He tried to make it clear to Canadians that there is a reason that other countries like the US, the UK and Germany are going to have these vaccines first. It is because they produce those vaccines in their country. Canada, he said, does not have the capacity to do this. That is something that is, at least to some extent, backed up by some things that we have heard from people within the industry that particularly the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, these are MRNA vaccines. Without getting too technical, essentially they're high tech vaccines. There are very few places in the world that are capable of making them. Canada isn't. I think it is one thing to say to Canadians, we've done all the work we can, we have this enormous portfolio, we're working as hard as we can to get it to you as quickly as we can. The government has said in the first quarter of next year, but as you say, how will Canadians react when they see in the United Kingdom, I mean, there are people getting appointments right now, as I understand it, to be vaccinated. Canadians don't know, are we talking January, February, March? And could there be a spanner in the works if, for instance, Health Canada doesn't offer approval in a timely fashion or any number of other issues really. I mean, this is a very complex undertaking.

MG: Tyler, how do you think this will go over in Alberta if Canadians see people, to Catherine's point in the U.K. or in the United States, for example, getting the vaccine as early as next month?

TYLER DAWSON: I think probably there will be some sort of general displeasure with the federal government. I mean, I think they're sort of always there's a little bit in Alberta. But that being said, I don't think the reaction will be, you know, tremendously different from anywhere else in the country when it comes to people, you know, looking at still being locked down and things like that when other countries are beginning to open up.

MG: Do you think there's any appetite in Alberta for the federal government to take a stronger role in what's going on right now? We talk a lot about interprovincial restrictions and what the government can do and then what the provinces have control over, particularly when it comes to health care, but if the cases are spiking in alarming numbers across this country, is there any appetite, do you think, for the federal government to have a greater role in trying to address this, Tyler?

TYLER DAWSON: No, I don't think there's really that much of an appetite anywhere in the country in Alberta. You know, there's been a controversy over the past few weeks about whether or not we should be adopting the federal contact tracing app. And there's been considerable reluctance amongst the Conservative Party government to to adopt that app, preferring to stay with the one that was developed here back in the earlier days of the pandemic. You know, there's been bits and pieces, I think, of provincial leaders calling for federal intervention. You have John Horgan, the other week calling for a national plan on interprovincial travel, for example. But, you know, is there an appetite anywhere in this country for the federal government to sort of, you know, swoop in and decree rules? I have a very hard time imagining any premier being all that happy about it or any provinces' populations for that matter.

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Niigaan Sinclair, what about for your perspective? I mean, do Canadians care about jurisdictional squabbling or do they want consistent rules to help get the second wave under control and the federal government to take responsibility here?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: It's been really interesting, this entire pandemic, to watch the political scene in the country and the Conservatives trying to get a foothold on issues with the federal government that generally has been seen favourably by Canadians. And I think the Conservative Party probably would be best served keeping with the WE scandals and being trying to go in a low rung criticism in terms of that really falls apart when you think about who can produce the virus or who can produce the vaccine to deal with the virus and who can't and who's going to get it first and who's not. But there is a real life impact of the vaccine, the vaccines being seen as hope. I mean, yesterday, the country heard about the death of Fred Saskamoose, First Nations hockey player due to COVID-19. And in the family's announcement speech, approximately 50 percent of that speech was about how he just missed the vaccine by two months. What that means is that, you know, everyday Canadians are looking at the vaccine as this hope of the beginning of 2021. But they're going to also witness the United States generally, who hasn't dealt with the sickness at all well, and they're going to be faced with getting the vaccine first. So it's almost like watching someone who behaved badly get the most amount of attention and favours first.

MG: You're in Ottawa, Catherine. And it was interesting, I was speaking with the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador yesterday who said that he would welcome federal help on resources, but not really beyond that. We heard to the premier of Ontario talking about, you know, the possibility of the federal government getting involved and referred to it as the nanny state. What sort of pressure is there on the prime minister and on his government to have a stronger role in this?

CATHERINE CULLEN: I agree with what the other panellists have said in so far as I do not see an appetite, frankly, from anywhere in the country in terms of more a stronger hand from the federal government. And when you hear the prime minister asked about this question, I mean, the primary tool in terms of taking control of the health care situation right now that could be used for that is the Emergencies Act. People may well know that the precursor to that is the War Measures Act. It's a very extreme move, early days, early months of the pandemic, you might recall that the federal government was being asked about it a lot. Is this something you would look at? Really, that conversation seems to have gone away. Their questions are about what the federal government can do in terms of coordination, in terms of support. So it's, you know, financial help for folks. There are questions about what the federal government can do. I mean, right now, I really think the primary emphasis is going to be on vaccines. We are talking a lot about who gets access first. I think that is very understandable. But I think we also have to think about the big picture here. It is also about supply and how long the rollout takes. And another really important question, and there is a role for the federal government in this is acceptability amongst Canadians, right? There is going to need to be a public education campaign. We talk about, you know, wanting those health care workers, those people in long term care homes to get this vaccine. But we want the population at large to be willing to use it as well. And there's a balance that needs to be struck there to be shown that, you know, all the right checks have been made by Health Canada and whatnot as well.

MG: So then if this is going to be carried by the provinces, Tyler, what sort of political baggage could Jason Kenney be facing, given, you know, doctors calling on him to take stronger action, the action that was announced yesterday perhaps not meeting their expectations. Rachel Notley, the leader of the opposition, has been hammering on the government, as well. Is Jason Kenny vulnerable to what's going on right now in that province?

TYLER DAWSON: Yeah, I think he is a little bit is he, you know, uniquely vulnerable compared to any other premier in the country? I'm not so sure about that. You know, there was some polling in recent days that showed there's sort of broad support for the measures that he'd taken a couple of weeks ago with the sort of less stringent per shot at this sort of circuit breaker thing. You know, in Albertans broadly thought that there are acceptable measures and that they maybe didn't go far enough. And in terms of the measures that were announced on Tuesday, that the polling showed that there would have been relatively good support for that. So, you know, it's certainly one thing to look at the, you know, sort of outrage in the pages of newspapers on Twitter about how Jason Kenney should have done this, that and the other thing and should have done it, you know, weeks ago. And obviously, there's going to be baggage in terms of the people who got sick, the people who died, you know, the stresses that this is all put on the health care system. But you know, is this going to be a enormous problem for him in the years ahead? I think it's very hard to say, but I don't think he is going to have, you know, a unique amount of baggage compared to anyone else.

MG: We will speak again. There is a lot still to be revealed, including the timeline, to Catherine's point, around that vaccine and convincing people to get the shot. In the meantime, it's great to speak with you all this morning. Thank you.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Thank you.

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Thank you.

TYLER DAWSON: Thanks so much.

MG: Catherine Cullen is a senior reporter with the CBC's Parliamentary Bureau. Niigaan Sinclair, columnist with the Winnipeg Free Press. And Tyler Dawson, the Alberta correspondent for The National Post. Your CBC News is next. And then we'll talk about the sacrifices that we've been forced to make this year. For those of us who have suffered losses during this, grieving, and we're all kind of going through various forms of grieving, has come with new challenges. In a moment, how to navigate grief during a pandemic and the calls for a national grief strategy in this country. What would that mean and what would it do? We'll find out. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

[Music]

Don't put COVID-19 grief 'on the back burner,' says therapist calling for national strategy on mourning

Guests: Nina Vaughan, Andrea Warnick

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, for small businesses across this country, recent rounds of lockdowns couldn't come at a worse time. But first, giving yourself permission to grieve.

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MG: COVID-19 has stolen many special moments this year from graduation ceremonies to birthday parties to even just gathering on a regular afternoon with friends and family. But for those of us who weren't able to spend time with a loved one before they died, to hold their hand and to say goodbye this year has been impossibly hard. Grieving alone, separated from family isn't easy. And so some advocates in Canada are calling for a national grief strategy to help people through this incredibly tough year. Nina Vaughan knows all about tough years. She's living one. She lost her father and aunt to COVID-19 in the spring. They were both living in a long-term care facility in Calgary when they died. Nina, good morning.

NINA VAUGHAN: Good morning.

MG: I'm sorry for for what you've been through. You've had a tough year.

NINA VAUGHAN: Yes, it has been a, it has been a doozy.

MG: How are you doing?

NINA VAUGHAN: I'm OK. I'm OK.

MG: I wanted to say thanks for for agreeing to talk about this, because it's I know it's really hard, but it's also important to speak about what people like yourself have been through.

NINA VAUGHAN: Mhmm.

MG: Your aunt died in April. How much contact were you allowed to have with her before she died?

NINA VAUGHAN: Well, my aunt, my uncle and my father all lived in a long-term care centre that locked down mid-March, so after that we didn't get to have any contact with them. And all three of them were diagnosed by the end of March and she passed away within a week. My dad lasted a month. So we didn't get to have any contact with them after the lockdown until they started facilitating FaceTime meetings. But by then, their mental health had deteriorated so much that they didn't really know what was going on when they were on FaceTime calls.

MG: So you weren't able even to be there with your aunt initially?

NINA VAUGHAN: So nobody was with her when she died. I was, you know, very fortunate compared to a lot of families in Canada in that I was allowed to be with my father when he died.

MG: I can't imagine not being there.

NINA VAUGHAN: Yeah, well, once they let me in, I wasn't leaving until he had passed away because I didn't want him to be alone.

MG: I mean, it sounds obvious, but how important was it that you were there in those moments?

NINA VAUGHAN: I hope it was important to him. I hope it gave him some comfort that he wasn't alone, because by that time, he had been alone for three months in a room by himself all day. So I hope that it meant something to him. For me, it was a double edged sword. It was, you know, a tremendous privilege to be able to be with somebody at the end of their life and help them through that., but it was also, you know, a traumatic experience to watch your parent die like that.

MG: What about for your mom and all this? She lives in a different senior's residence. What has always been like for her?

NINA VAUGHAN: It's been I mean, it's been hard for, you know, our family, it's spread out across the country, which, you know, sort of adds a different layer to the grief because we didn't have an opportunity to get together to grieve. So I had to tell my mother that her twin sister, my aunt, was my mother's twin sister, I had to tell her by FaceTime that her twin sister had died.

MG: Oh, my gosh.

NINA VAUGHAN: And, you know, and at that time, they were in isolation where she lived as well. So she was literally in her room by herself. You know, that's horrible news to give anybody, but then not to be able to comfort them physically, which is such an important part of that process, was really difficult for her and for me. And then I had to tell her my father died over the phone. You know, those are, I mean that's just a tough way to have to give people that information. I mean it's just, you know, multiple layers of really bad stuff this year, in terms of this process. And then, of course, my mother was left to grieve by herself. They wouldn't let me take her home with me for a few days or weeks or however long we needed to grieve as a family. So we just were left to support her as best we could, you know, through Zoom and FaceTime and phone calls.

MG: I mean, it's hard to wrap your head around this and there's this public health imperative, but that runs up against kind of human nature. Do you know what I mean?

NINA VAUGHAN: Yeah, and it runs up against all of these really sad stories that are happening, you know, behind all of those numbers that are reported daily on the news, you know. Every one of those numbers, you know, has, you know, a whole family support system that's had to deal with something similar, some, you know, to what my family family's experienced.

MG: The other part of this that comes out of it and you've hinted at this, is that in the wake of of these losses, we can't and you can't gather together with your family that's across the country to remember a life and to celebrate a life and to give each other even just a hug. You were able to hold a funeral in the summer for your father. But again, it's not normal times.

NINA VAUGHAN: Well, I wouldn't really call it a funeral. We scattered, my brother and my sister, my mother and I got together and scattered my father's ashes. That was the extent of of any service, given the circumstances. So that was better than, you know, my cousins, you know, my aunt's family, they haven't been able to, you know, to do anything. And I know that even just the small act of getting together as an immediate family allowed us an opportunity to at least process some of what had happened to us separately across the country. But by getting together, there's an opportunity to storytell and celebrate somebody's life. So, you know, it does give some modicum of closure, but it doesn't feel like it was really a good way to honour his life.

MG: We're going to be speaking in a moment about this idea of a national grief strategy, some way for us as a society to figure out how better to support people like yourself who are going through this really difficult time. What would have helped you and your family over the last six months or so?

NINA VAUGHAN: Well, I would say two things before, you know, should another really tight lockdown happen, I don't think we can isolate the seniors the way that we did the first time. When I went in to say goodbye to my father, I saw how much all those people had deteriorated mentally from that isolation. And it was really, really tragic. So we have to figure out a better way to support them through another lockdown if it comes to one that includes limiting access to them. But I would also say something about supporting people through with mental health support. So I've tried to get my mother some mental health support and I think she, her first appointment is six weeks after I made contact. So she still hasn't had an appointment yet. And so I think, you know, all of those services are really, really strapped right now. And I think that's, I think there's a huge need there. And I'm very, very concerned for all of the staff in the nursing homes and the first responders and health care workers who have had to facilitate those goodbyes with family members. I mean, that I think I read somewhere that there's a tsunami of grief coming and I believe that that's the case as people start to process what's happened to them through all this, that there's going to be a significant need for mental health support.

MG: Can I just ask you finally, again, it's difficult to talk about this and you've been through a lot. Why is it important for you to do an interview like this, to have a conversation like this?

NINA VAUGHAN: Because I think well, I think talking about our experience is part of how we heal from it and we've been so isolated that there's a limited opportunity to talk about what's happened to us. And so it's sort of stretching out this grieving process and making it harder than it needs to be because of our isolation. So it helps me personally, but also, I think some sort of mental health strategy or some sort of support for people who are going who are going through this, not just me, but like I said, the people who are actually the workers in the field, they're going to need some support when this is all over, once they sit down and have time to process what they've seen and witnessed.

MG: Take care of yourself. It's been a tough several months for you and I really appreciate you speaking to us.

NINA VAUGHAN: Yeah, thanks.

MG: Thanks Nina. Nina Vaughan is a resident of Calgary. She lost her father and her aunt to covid-19 earlier this year. Stories like hers have become tragically common over the course of this year, which is why the federal government is being called upon to implement that national grief strategy to help people cope with the range of loss that we are all experiencing. Andrea Warnick is one of the co-founders of the Canadian Grief Alliance. She's a registered psychotherapist who specialises in grief. Andrea, good morning to you.

ANDREA WARNICK: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How does what you heard from Nina compare to what you're hearing from people that you work with?

ANDREA WARNICK: You know, Nina's story really reflects what we're hearing from so many people right now, and I really think of her telling her story because I think just other people being able to hear her experience decreases in a small way, their isolation. And, you know, she really nailed it with the grief is hard enough as it is, it is so much harder now with people being isolated from one another.

MG: If you aren't able to gather for a funeral or to sit shiva, as you normally would, I mean, what impact does that have, not just on the individual, but on that process of grieving?

ANDREA WARNICK: Well, it can complicate the process of actually processing the grief. You know, like we as humans, we need to come together and we, you know, benefit from being able to come together at the hardest times in life and tell stories, share stories, pass on stories, you know, and that's where I'm really worried about the impact, because I think it's going to take a while before we really see it about not being able to come together in that way. You know, and that's where certainly the families I work with, we really encourage people not to wait to the pandemic's over to do that, to still try to find ways, even at home where there's some some beautiful examples of, you know, cross doom memorials happening, service happening and things like that, but really still not putting those pieces on hold, finding ways to do it until we can actually gather in person.

MG: So there are these calls for a national grief strategy. What is that? I mean, if you're looking at a strategy, what would that be?

ANDREA WARNICK: Well, we're really cognisant of the fact that, you know, a lot of funding has come down for mental health, which is incredibly important, but grief in itself is not a mental health condition. You know, grief is a really natural response to a significant loss in our lives. There's no pathology there. And so people who are working with grief are really cognisant of the fact that grief is slipping through the cracks. And if we don't put good support in place for people who are grieving, that can play out in a number of mental health conditions. But the strategy is really aimed at being proactive and supporting people before they actually have mental health conditions, you know, being able to make sure that we have like a public awareness campaign, because like I often say that we're a grief illiterate society. We really struggle to know what to say or what not to say when we're showing up to support someone. So a big part of the strategy would be just that, you know, educating the public on, you know, how to support one another and also looking at, you know, the current services that are in place, but more importantly, what's not in place? Canada just has a patchwork of grief services and many people have zero access because of geography or finances to any sort of great service. And we really want to fill those gaps.

MG: It's interesting because I think people the idea of grief literacies is fascinating. People might turn to the Elizabeth Kubler Ross five stages of grieving and say that that is, you know, the template, that's the road map. Does that actually work in real life?

ANDREA WARNICK: Absolutely not. You know, and Elizabeth Kubler Ross did a lot of good things for people who are dying at the time. But I actually find the five stages model very problematic. So many of the families I work with, even young kids, will come in and they're like, OK, like basically how do I get to acceptance, you know? And I think our brains like neat and tidy stories. And the five stages resonate with us from that standpoint. But the fact is, like grief is messy business, you know, and I spent a lot of time working with people, encouraging them to sort of let go of their attempts to control their grief process and surrender to it, you know, and that's where I find that, unfortunately, the five stages have set a lot of people up to feel like they're grieving wrong or they're not doing it right. So many people will come to me and say, I had no idea it can be this hard. I must not be doing it right.

MG: If we want to create a strategy, are there jurisdictions that are ahead of us that we could perhaps learn from?

ANDREA WARNICK: You know, I really applaud in Australia in the last year has set up a phone line across Australia for any adult. So I mean, who are who are grieving and they're talking to a trained grief therapist, you know, and so there's, like, absolutely no fee for that. So you just have to have access to a phone or a computer and you can have access to a grief counsellor. The UK, this is one of my dreams that we'll have in Canada one day has phone lines for any adult who's supporting a grieving child. So this could be an educator, this could be a grandparent, a babysitter to be able to call and again, talk to a trained grief counsellor to really be able to get skills for how to show up for kids who are grieving because kids really fall through the cracks when it comes to grief.

NINA VAUGHAN: There are questions as to whether that sort of intervention works for everyone. George Bonanno is a professor of clinical psychology who heads up the Lost Trauma and Emotion Lab at Columbia University. Take a listen to some of what he says about intervening in grief and how he believes sometimes that that can be harmful.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: When we lose someone close to us, we do suffer. That short term suffering is generally very adaptive. It's part of the stress response that we have as human beings. We come equipped with a pretty functional systems that allow us to deal with these kind of aversive situations, and we do deal with them. It's really when those processes don't work properly, when somebody can't quite recover from an event, then they can definitely benefit from professional help if they want it. But I think interfering before people have had a chance to recover on their own can be quite harmful and it's not necessary. Most of the research suggests that how people are doing in the first month in particular asking them doesn't really tell us much about how they're going to be doing over the long run.

MG: Andrea Warnick, what do you make of that? That it's difficult in some ways to intervene because people grieve in different ways, but also we don't know what that grief is going to look like in the long run.

ANDREA WARNICK: You know, there's elements of what he's saying, which I agree with. I mean, I think we have a natural ability of you as humans were built to be able to withstand great deals of suffering, you know, and that's something that I often see in the people that I support is they're really doubting, like, can I survive this? You know? So I do agree with that. But I really think we have to look at what he means by intervene. You know, so much of grief work is actually based on education. It's helping people understand that you're not doing it wrong. It's just hard, you know, and really looking. I mean, so many of the people I work with, unfortunately, get a lot of well-intentioned but misguided advice. You know, our society is really quick to be like, OK, well, you need to move on. You need to get over the person. And that is so not accurate when it comes to grief related to a death. You know, throughout history we've had such rich traditions of storytelling that I find that really have gotten diluted in our society. And this is where so much of my work with people is just educating them and helping them find ways like what does it look like to stay connected to your child, you know, six years, 60 years after your child has died. And that's where, you know, I suspect he's talking more about in depth group therapy, which for sure, most of people most people don't need. Some people do. But when it comes to just showing up and being able to bear witness to one other suffering, we all benefit from that. And unfortunately, it doesn't happen in us and unfortunately, now doing grief in a pandemic, there's extra barriers to that.

MG: So if we had a strategy, how could that help people who are grieving right now? And it's about grieving personal loss, but you think people are also grieving just the loss of routine, the loss of their business that that they invested everything into and suddenly it's gone? I mean, if you have the strategy in the midst of the pandemic, what practically could that give people?

ANDREA WARNICK: Well, I think it could give people, A, more access to grief support. So it would really be doing like that education piece would be applicable to everybody, whether it's that they're, you know, grieving their job, grieving the university graduation that they were looking forward to for a year and didn't actually get you know, but for sure, people who are also grieving death, their losses to separations from family members. So the public awareness part would actually like to support anybody who's grieving any type of loss. But we're also really conscious of the fact that, you know, there's this patchwork of grief services across Canada with big gaps. The vast majority of them, if not all of them, are just depended on donated dollars. So you look at any of the children's grief centres and things like that. And right now there's less donated dollars than there have ever been before. So we want to make sure that this existing services are well funded so people still have access, but also that there can be things such as the phone lines that you see in the UK, in Australia that can be available to anyone, regardless of where you live geographically and your income.

MG: Just before I let you go, do you worry about the cumulative effect of all of this loss? I mean, read the newspaper and you flip through the obituary section, and there are a lot of obituaries of people who have died because of COVID-19 and at the end, it will always say we will gather at a later date. And that deferment, do you worry about what that will accumulate into?

ANDREA WARNICK: I do worry about it. However, you know, this is where I really encourage people, even if you're deferring the big gathering and still make sure we need to make sure we do those gatherings when we can. But make sure you're doing things right now, don't just try to put your grief on the back burner and wait until that happens. It's so important that we're still finding ways to connect with each other now. You know, if you know that somebody in your life has had, such as Nina, multiple people or even just one person who's died in their life, reach out to them. You know, call them. Let them know that you're thinking of them. Talk, offer stories and memories of the person who died. I find often we're hesitant to talk about the person who died after they die because we're worried we'll make people sad and what most people want more than anything, Matt, is for the person who died to be remembered. And we can do that now.

MG: Andrea, it's good to speak with you. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

ANDREA WARNICK: Thanks so much, Matt.

MG: Andrea Warnick is a registered psychotherapist and one of the co-founders of the Canadian Grief Alliance. We'd love to hear from you on this. There is a lot of grief that is being felt across this country. You can reach us through email, thecurrent@cbc.ca.

[Song: "Elegy" by Leif Vollebekk]

MG: The Canadian singer-songwriter Leif Vollebekk and a tune called "Elegy." Again, people are grieving in different ways across this country and we'd love to hear how you are managing that grief. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. After your regional update, we'll talk about those small businesses and the difficult times they are facing right now. I'm Matt Galloway. The Current is back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music]

CFIB says Ontario government should stop favouring big-box stores over independent retailers

Guests: Jolanta Petrycka, Regan Bueti, Dan Kelly, Vinita Dubey

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: The store is the only thing we have as a opportunity.. sorry.. to connect with customers and to people and to sell and to pay my bills.

MG: New lockdown orders across this country have come at a crushing time for small business owners. That you just heard was Tracy Pepe, who's the owner of the Scented L'air in Brampton, Ontario. The next few weeks are usually some of the busiest that those small business owners will see all year. In areas like Toronto, Peel Region and Winnipeg, the closing of all non-essential businesses has left many owners wondering how they will survive, if at all. Jolanta Petrycka is the owner of Take Note, it's a pen and stationery store in the Junction neighbourhood of Toronto. Regan Bueti owns the Style Bar clothing store in Winnipeg and they both join us now. Good morning to you both.

REGAN BUETI: Good morning.

JOLANTA PETRYCKA: Good morning.

MG: Regan, let's talk about what's happening with you. Your store has been closed since mid-November. How are you doing in the midst of all that?

REGAN BUETI: You know, right now we've had to pivot over into online sales, which definitely isn't as good as in-store shopping. I think a lot of people are scared to shop right now online and they just don't know what their financial situation is going to be throughout the Christmas season. So it's definitely been a hard, hard while, you know, since we've closed because it's just scary going into Christmas like this.

MG: Yeah I would think so. Jolanta, what about for you? You just had to close down on Monday in Toronto. It's day three of the lockdown in that city. What's it been like so far for you?

JOLANTA PETRYCKA: Oh, it's a drastic change. And also how people can access and purchase at my store products that they were planning. And what's very disappointing because many people were coming through the month of November and saying, oh, I have to remember that you have this and this, because this time I am shopping everything local. And they won't be able because the store is closed. And you know, that's very disappointing for them when they were having that, they were in the mood to support local. Now I'm not sure what's next.

MG: What does this time, I mean, we're in the run up to the holidays, so what does this time generally mean for a business like yours?

JOLANTA PETRYCKA: It's not a secret, the biggest time for retailers, small and big, to make extra money that allows you to pay your employees and yourself for the next three months where the business is usually goes to a standstill. And so it's very important to sustain my business for the next couple of months, not only to pay myself a bit more money and to my employees.

MG: Same for you, Regan? That this is the time? People talk about, you know, the last couple of weeks before the holiday season is the time when small businesses make their way into the black. Is it the same for you?

REGAN BUETI: Yeah. You know, in January, February, in Winnipeg, when it's minus 30 and people are, you know, saving a little bit after Christmas, those are our really slow times. And Christmas time is when we usually are able to fund those months, so that we can make it through those times.

MG: You said that you initially started to move into an online kind of world. How is that working out for you, Regan? I mean, in part you're selling clothes and so it's a bit trickier perhaps for people to figure out what they want and what fits online. How has it worked for you online?

REGAN BUETI: You know, surprisingly, it hasn't been so bad, I think, because everyone in Winnipeg is really trying to support local. But I am you know, with clothing, it's hard. A lot of people want to touch the fabric and they want to try it on. So it's a lot harder sometimes for clothing. And there's a lot of other clothing brands out there that are also online that I'm competing with. But we are able to do curb-side pick up. We do deliveries throughout the week. So I think that is really helping people want to support and buy from us.

MG: And are you finding that people really want to buy local? I mean, again, Manitoba is prohibiting the big box stores that are still open from selling non-essential items. We see these photos of, you know, garbage bags over certain items and you can buy other items. Are people taking that that guidance and trying to support local shops like yours?

REGAN BUETI: Yeah, that was the reason why there was a push for the big stores to stop selling non-essential goods, because we all felt that it was unfair that we were closed, but some of the essential stores could still carry and sell what we carry and sold. So we as a small business community kind of banded together and we got that changed. So that's definitely helped out a lot.

MG: Jolanta, that's not the case in Ontario. Wal-Mart, Costco, big box stores can sell everything and stores like yours are closed down. What's your reaction to that?

JOLANTA PETRYCKA: Well, it's obviously double standards. There's nothing else because if Doug Ford used the phrase that it would be nightmare logistics for big stores to close the area where they are not where people should not buy it. It's not, I don't believe, but if that's difficult for stores to handle, to change where people are shopping, how they can handle the influx of people is so. And then the second is just, you know, we can see people and we can organize at the small store in flow of people in such a way that people don't stay for too long.

MG: So you think it would be safe to be able to open with just fewer people?

JOLANTA PETRYCKA: Absolutely. I have around 600 square feet of space for people to enter. So I can ask for people at any given time to be at the store. And that gives them 150 square feet around. And people move from section to section in a very well organized manner, and they don't stay for too long, but they have a chance to look to touch the products and pick up a few items that are good for the gifts or for themselves. So absolutely, I think we have a way of controlling this and we proved we do.

MG: In the face of that, how are you keeping afloat financially? I mean, it's only been a couple of days, but money not coming in and running a small business is a bit of a knife edge anyway. How are you keeping afloat?

JOLANTA PETRYCKA: It was a very difficult year. So December was supposed to be a month that would hopefully I can catch up financially. No, I'm dipping into my personal line of credit constantly in order to survive this year and see what the spring brings and how I can move then with my business. But the business is just my soul.

MG: Your soul?

JOLANTA PETRYCKA: Yeah. And this is my source of income for my family. And I also have the help of two people who are artists and they work part-time. So that's very important supplement to their income. And I'm not having this. So that's very bad because I'm also it's, you know, that small store, it's a bit like a community for neighbourhoods and for the people who work. I'm very flexible with hours, so people can continue whatever they're doing in their life as they supplement their income, as they help me around the store.

MG: What about for you, Regan? Again, you run a small business and you put a lot of time in it. You put a lot of effort into it. You put a lot of money into a small business as well. How are you managing financially?

REGAN BUETI: It's definitely been a struggle for me. I'm also a new mom, I have a four month old baby at home that I had to go back to work the next day pretty much, you know cause I had to lay off my employees. So I'm trying to manage all of that. And, you know, it's I have like rent is just crazy. And a lot of the landlords here aren't helping. And financially, it's just scary. You know, we put in I put in all my savings when I opened the business and I'm constantly picking out new loans. And I just don't want to keep incurring more and more debt with not even knowing how long this is going to last.

MG: What kind of toll does that take on you? I mean, mentally, you have a lot going on and congratulations on the baby. I mean, that's a great bit of news, but there's a lot that's happening around that. So what sort of toll does that take on you, Regan?

REGAN BUETI: Oh, it was it was crazy. And then also my husband is a front line worker. So I have a husband who works in the hospital, with the COVID patients and I have a newborn at home who I've had to bring with me to work. And it's just mentally, I don't know how I'm surviving through it, but you just kind of have to take it day by day and and hope that one day it's going to get better. We just don't know how long that's going to take.

MG: What about for you, Jolanta? I mean, part of this is about I said it was an existential crisis. You're a big part of the community that you're in right now, as you said. Do you worry about that disappearing? That we as a community could lose something if this crisis continues?

JOLANTA PETRYCKA: Absolutely. I mean, on a small scale, let's say in respect to neighbourhood, we bring the sort of charm to and character to neighbours, is different stories when you go to the Junction, you expect different stories. When you go to different areas, you'd expect different because this character has been built also through retail stores that stay there. And then people can walk for a few reasons, not only to come to my store, but maybe to small furniture stores, clothing store and bookstore. So that brings people who can walk into the neighbourhood. If that starts disappearing and then commercial buildings start crumbling, we are losing as a community and that's way, and once it happens, it's very difficult to go back to the good pictures of nice neighbourhoods where people can walk around.

MG: I wish you both the best of luck. These are really tricky times and you're all juggling everything, it seems like, all at the same time. Thank you very much for speaking with us.

REGAN BUETI: Thank you.

JOLANTA PETRYCKA: Thank you.

MG: Jolanta Petrycka is the owner of Take Note. It's a stationary store in Toronto. Regan Bueti owns the Style Bar, which is a clothing store in Winnipeg. Dan Kelly is the President and CEO of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. That federation represents 110,000 businesses across this country. He's been listening in. Dan, good morning to you.

DAN KELLY: Good morning.

MG: You listened to those two stories. Are they similar to what you're hearing from other retailers that you represent across this country?

DAN KELLY: They did an awesome job. And yes, we had 70,000 calls to my association so far this year since COVID started, many of them just like that, some of them worse than that, where the owner is so stressed that they this call turns into a suicide prevention caller. It's that dark for so many small business owners.

MG: You said that this was a nightmare scenario for small independent businesses. If you take a look at what happened in the spring, how does what we're seeing now with shutdowns across this country compare for retailers, compared to that first bout of COVID?

DAN KELLY: Well, there's a few really important differences. One is businesses really understood that government was dealing with something brand new and needed to take incredibly blunt action quickly, didn't have time to nuance it at all because nobody knew what we were dealing with. The other thing is businesses were an awful lot healthier at that stage. They hadn't been through, you know, reasonably good period of time economically. So they were a little bit stronger. Right now, a strong wind could blow down small businesses because they're so desperately weakened. They had the closures in the spring, they had limited sales over the course of the summer, there were some glimmers of hope that have been taken away and on top of that, business owners now are questioning because there's been so limited data to suggest that retail shopping is a problem, they're feeling like they're being used as an example to send a message to the public that it's got to get its act together and and take COVID more seriously, rather than shutting down retailers because retail shopping is inherently risky. So the mood on business owners part has really shifted. The thing that, of course, drives them crazy and boosted into anger is the unlevel playing field that we're seeing in some markets where, you know, you can, the independent bookstore is closed, but you can go and line up at Costco and sort through the bin to pull out whatever you want from the big book bin with a hundred other people.

So on Monday, the premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, was asked why big box stores like Costco are allowed to continue selling non-essential goods while those small retailers are shut down for in-store shopping. Here is a bit of what Doug Ford had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It's not fair. After speaking to some of the big box stores it would been a logistical nightmare. They have essential items spread out throughout their whole store. And then on top of that, how do they monitor and restrict people from going in there? All of a sudden, someone goes and grabs a pair of jeans, throws it in their shopping cart, and they have a hundred people behind them and shopping and they have a list of items. It should be a logistical nightmare. And as for Manitoba, after speaking to the CEO of Walmart Canada, it's creating massive problems out there.

MG: Dan Kelly, what do you make of what the premier has to say?

DAN KELLY: Well, look, I I think he's right. It is a logistical nightmare for big companies. They've done it though in Manitoba. They've done it in Vermont. They've done it in Wales where large retailers, big box stores are limited to selling essential goods. Look, if it's dangerous to buy a book in an independent bookstore with five people, then why is it not dangerous to buy that book in a Costco with 200 breathing over your neck?

MG: He says that he heard directly from the CEO of Wal-Mart Canada. Do you think that it is troubling that the folks who who are in charge of those big box stores have the ear of the premier? Is it easier for them to perhaps trade policy than it would be for the independents flower shop or the independent clothing store?

DAN KELLY: There's no question the premier needs to listen to everyone, and I don't take any issue with him listening to the CEO of Wal-Mart. But I've not had a call with the premier about this at all, not through the entire pandemic, to talk about the impact it's having on small business owners. Now look, he knows this. I don't believe for a second that any politician, including Doug Ford, celebrates closing down small businesses. You can see the pain on his face when he's doing it. But my goodness, small firms have supply chain issues too. Small firms are going to go bankrupt. Honestly, the Ontario government has signed the death warrant of thousands of businesses as a result of this. They are not going to survive missing out on Christmas.

MG: You are estimating at the beginning of this that 1 in 7 small businesses could close. What would they be replaced by, do you think?

DAN KELLY: Well, look, my usual line is it would be replaced by the Gap or other multinational retailers. But even those guys are struggling desperately right now. I don't know. I mean, I suspect it's more condos because they're, I don't know who on earth is going to be setting up a small restaurant or, you know, most times where there are business casualties, it's replaced fairly quickly. There are, you know, yes, businesses, independent businesses fail all the time, but they're typically replaced by new start-ups. We're seeing two things happen: Huge numbers of closures expected over the next number of months and very, very few people that are courageous enough to start or plan to start a business in the middle of a pandemic. And I worry that the streetscapes of our cities are already seeing a lot of that, but we're going to see an awful lot more in the spring as the shakeout from this happens.

MG: Just finally, in the middle of the pandemic seems to be a key phrase. The public health experts are saying the people need to stay home and only leave their house to buy groceries or medication, only go out for essentials. Do you see the concern that they have with people who are circulating in the public. That there might be a you know, unlevel playing field, but the public health guidance is just stay home?

DAN KELLY: Look, I get that. And I know that public health officials, politicians have an incredibly challenging job to do. That's why small firms were so serious about trying to make sure that they create a safe environment for their employees and their customers. But ultimately, look, what we're asking for is at least a pathway to allow them to eke out a living. We get that there may need to be restrictions. Our suggestion is limit the small business then to serve no more than three customers at a time with three staff. At least that would give them an economic heartbeat to potentially survive the winter, which for many, many small retailers, it's just not going to be possible under the current restrictions that are growing right across Canada.

MG: Dan, good to speak with you. Thank you.

DAN KELLY: Anytime.

MG: Dan Kelly, President and CEO of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. Dr. Vinita Dubey is here to explain some of the public health reasoning behind these decisions. She is Associate Medical Officer of Health for Toronto Public Health. Doctor, good morning to you.

VINITA DUBEY: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of what we've heard from these independent business owners about the consequences of these lockdowns? That they get the public health concerns, but their livelihood is hanging by a thread at the best of times and that thread, they feel, is about to be snipped.

VINITA DUBEY: There's no question that this pandemic has had very difficult, we've had to make very difficult choices and has had a very significant impact on everyone actually, including small business owners. But the decisions that have been made to restrict areas of the city are important. They're extremely important to prevent the spread of this virus, especially in a city like Toronto where we've seen alarming rates and despite, you know, ongoing restrictions have not been able to get those rates down. Additional action is required.

MG: How much transmission of COVID is happening in those small businesses?

VINITA DUBEY: The main message really is that we need to stay home. I mean, I think we've tried restrictions. We have public health guidance on how to do this properly. But what we're seeing is that when things are open, people are out and about and it's in that out and about gathering, meeting with people that COVID is spreading. And we know that the stay at home message works. We've all done it in the spring. And we also know, looking at this time across the world, that places in Europe, for example, that have had additional restrictions now have been able to slow the spread of this virus. And so that's why the messages to stay at home and to only focus on essentials.

MG: But I guess the question is still important, which is do we know whether there's transmission happening in those small businesses? The big box stores are still open. The small businesses are the ones where you can't go in. Is there transmission happening within those small shops?

VINITA DUBEY: Well, I think the important point is that even though big box stores are open, our message is to only go there for essentials. We know that even small businesses have had outbreaks in workers. That's certainly something that we've seen. It's very difficult often to pinpoint exactly where someone could have got COVID, whether they got it in this store, in that store, whether they got it from a friend that they had coffee with, because you look back 14 days from when someone got COVID. But what we do know is that when people are more mobile, when they're out, when they're shopping, going to a restaurant, going for events, meeting with people, it's in those scenarios interacting with others that COVID is spreading.

MG: Why would it be then that the big box stores were allowed to stay open at all? If this is about trying to tell people to stay home and the message I mean, we've heard this, you know, only go out for essentials, but some of those stores are open. Some of those stores aren't. Why is it that the big box stores would be allowed to stay open?

VINITA DUBEY: Big box store or small retailer, the message is the only the stores that provide essentials, groceries, medications should be open. And that is definitely our public health message. That being said, those small retailers that have had to close, we definitely think that we should be supporting them. And so, as much as possible, we are encouraging the public to use curb-side pickup, online, virtual, whatever is possible to be able to support those retailers that have had to close. But we're in this time together to prevent the spread of this virus.

MG: Do you worry that that message gets undermined if it doesn't feel, if those small business owners don't feel as though they're in it together? That they see, I mean, there was the story in Toronto of The Bay, a six floor department store that was open because it had a luxury food hall that was selling food in the basement. And somehow you could go to that, but you could also go upstairs and buy a television or something like that that people don't feel perhaps that they're all in it together because they worry about an unequal playing field.

VINITA DUBEY: The Bay has been closed that we just got into this, a grey zone on Monday. We definitely recognize that certain people are being more disadvantaged. Hey, COVID is actually also impacting the disadvantaged more disproportionately than others as well. And so we're seeing that with this virus and we certainly do want a level playing field. We want everyone to be protected. And the way this virus is spreading, we all have to do our part and and hope that the other supports that are available will be enough in this short time. If we can all do this together right now, we can get out of it together as well. And that is also part of our hope and our message.

MG: How do you factor in the mental health consequences of a shutdown and hearing from the small business owners, you know, they're juggling all these different things and people are sick and somebody is working on the front lines in their family and they are taking on greater debts. We've spoken with other public health officials who are very concerned about the mental health effects of this. How do you factor that into the decisions that you're making?

VINITA DUBEY: There's no question that the mental health impacts of COVID are big, that they're affecting all all different age groups, all different people, and that it's something that we need to be able to address if we don't put these restrictions in. Now, the alarming increases in cases that have occurred in our city will only continue to increase. We've seen the modelling studies and that too will have a big mental health and public health impacts down the road. And so I think for the mental health impacts that we're facing right now through this lockdown, we need to get support and help. We need to do it in safer ways, virtually for now, with the hope that we will get through this together.

MG: Just finally, we've talked on the program a good deal about covid fatigue. Were many, many months into this. Is the message to stay home, do you think that's getting through to people?

VINITA DUBEY: We've heard this message before, we've all done it together. I think the way this message will resonate is if we can all hold each other accountable and we definitely want to meet up with our family. We want to see them. We want to, we want that. But if we can all at least say, you know what, now's not the time, let's wait for this to pass and we'll meet up again in a few weeks, whatever it will look like. Let's get together virtually for now. I think if we can all lift each other up and support each other through this, that will help.

MG: A few weeks. I hope we're all as optimistic as you are in that.

VINITA DUBEY: Well, right now, we know the restrictions are in place until December 21st. You can imagine that when the restrictions are ready to be lifted, they'll be lifted gradually, just as what happened in the spring. But we won't be in this forever. And so I think the sooner we can buckle down, stay home, prevent the spread, the sooner we'll be able to get out of it.

MG: Dr. Dubey, it's good to speak with you about this. Thank you so much.

VINITA DUBEY: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Vinita Dubey, the Associate Medical Officer of Health for Toronto Public Health. That's it for The Current for today. Q is up next. Alan Doyle,Great Big Sea, on talking about his new book, All Together Now: A Newfoundlander's Light Tales for Heavy Times. We could do with some of those light tales, I think. Before we go, some sad news. You might have heard of this. Fred Sasakamoose died yesterday after being diagnosed with COVID-19. He was 86-years-old, one of the first Indigenous players in the NHL. 11 games he played for the Chicago Blackhawks in the 1950s, paved the way for many Indigenous hockey players. Grew up in Saskatchewan, survivor of residential schools, was a role model for so many people in the community for hockey. He was inducted into the Saskatchewan Sports Hall of Fame and is a member of the Order of Canada and spoke with Hockey Canada in 2017 about the importance of following your dreams. We'll leave you with his words. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I left my way of life, culture back home, to go to the outside world of the world. It was very difficult. My dream was to become NHLer. I wanted to play NHL and I did 53-54. It became a reality. To pave the way for the Indian kids and the Metis, they look at you as a role model and they say wow. They look at my rings, my pictures. This is what I gain in life. This is what brought me to where I am. It's for you now to follow the footsteps. Make it better. Better. Not only just for 11 games, maybe 11 years NHL. May into the Olympics. You become what you want. Your choices is great. Much greater than mine.

Nov. 25, 2020 episode transcript

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