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The Current Transcript for April 1, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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When you look at the half a million Americans who've lost their lives from covid-19, I think that's only partly because of the SARS coronavirus. That was also the deliberate defiance of masks and social distancing and now this defiance of vaccines.

MATT GALLOWAY: Peter Hotez has spent his career developing vaccines for neglected diseases. Now he's working on one for covid and he's giving it away in 30 minutes. The renowned doctor is here to talk about vaccine resistance, conquering covid around the world and why he wants the United States to help Canada stamp out the pandemic here. Also this morning, in the shadow of this crisis, the opioid epidemic has been raging. And on the of first nation in Alberta, that has meant redefining what harm reduction means.

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by no means celebrating addiction. But what it does is it celebrates the lives of people without judgement.

MG: In an hour, a look at how the community has pulled together through the eyes of the local physician and her filmmaker daughter. We start, though, with a question. Is now really the best time for the Olympics? Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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'COVID is bigger than the Olympics': Athletes question certainty of Tokyo Games

Guests: Madeleine Kelly, Sydney Pickrem

MG: The sign reads, We are not disposable pawns, and the woman holding it in a photo posted to Twitter is a nurse in Japan. She's part of an online protest against the Japanese Olympic Committee's recent request that 500 nurses volunteer for this summer's Olympic Games. Medical personnel, so say they are already too busy dealing with overloaded issues and rising covid infections to even think about the Olympic Games. And they're not the only ones putting the Olympics aside. Just this week, the world's oldest person, Kane Tanaka, dropped out of the torch relay because she was worried about bringing covid back to her nursing home. This is all part of a growing concern amongst the general public about whether the Olympics should go ahead at all. On Friday, the state of emergency in Japan was extended until the end of May. Satoko Itani is a professor of sports and gender studies at Kansai University in Osaka. It's the city that's been hardest hit by this latest wave of covid and they join us now. Good morning.

SATOKO ITANI: Hello.

MG: You're in the midst of a fourth wave of covid. How serious is the crisis right now in Japan?

SATOKO ITANI: So the the highest number of new infections in Japan is has been recorded in Osaka. And the number might not look as big in comparison to India. But every day we are finding over one thousand new cases and about 40, 40 deaths on the good days. I mean, not good days. That's a hot holidays.

MG: And how are hospitals holding up? We know that. I mean, around the world, intensive care units, for example, have been overwhelmed. What's happening there?

SATOKO ITANI: People like at the hospital workers, they basically said that the system has already collapsed. The people who needs to get the immediate care is not getting it here.

MG: And are people being vaccinated as the vaccination campaign roaring along or is that part of you?

SATOKO ITANI: Well, so they initially said that in February they will start vaccinating medical workers, which is already pretty late in comparison to other countries. And it only began, but only about 30 percent of even medical workers have been vaccinated in Japan. And in April, the thhealth minister said that they would roll out the vaccination for all those people. But basically, it hasn't really started. I don't know anybody around me who are old even gotten the ticket.

MG: Wow. So I mentioned this request for these five hundred nurses to be mobilised for the Olympics. Tell me more about this and why this in the context of what you've been talking about, created so much opposition?

SATOKO ITANI: Well, so the initial plan was to have the ten thousand medical volunteers, right? So maybe they shrunk it down to five hundred. But if we put this in the context of Osaka, we were asking other prefectures to send in maybe 20 maximum. And about 20 doctors are participating from other prefectures to help Osaka. But 20 is the maximum we can get at this point when people are dying without even being able to go to the hospital. So if you think about that, 20 is a lot to ask. Currently asking five hundred hospital workers for the sporting events, which did not have to happen, is outrageous

MG: in the midst of all of this. And you say it doesn't have to happen. I mean, do people want the Olympics to happen?

SATOKO ITANI: As far as I can see in recent polls, 80 percent, 90 percent, whichever the polls you look at are not wanting the Olympics this summer.

MG: Tell me more about that. Why are people so opposed to these games happening?

SATOKO ITANI: I think now one year into the pandemic, we are very aware of so much human resources and money are poured into the Olympics. While we are not receiving the people on the receiving any compensation when they have to close the business right. When there is a state of emergency, they are asked to close the business in other countries, compensating the loss. But in Japan, what we have gotten is very, very, very small. And we see that the Olympics seems to be able to claim as much money as they need. So we are seeing that it so many people are going out of jobs, so many people can go to the hospital. Why there is so much resources, money, any human going into this Olympic, right.

MG: in the face of all of this, the organisers say the Olympics will go forward and the torch relay is actually still underway. I mentioned that the world's oldest person decided to drop out of the relay, but the relay continues. What does that been like?

SATOKO ITANI: Well, this has been the weirdest torch, really, I have witnessed in my life. So it had started in Fukushima, which was the epicentre of the earthquake and nuclear meltdown in 2011. So there's nobody living there, but they wanted to start there. So they basically close off the area. Maybe the runners run around in the circle, maybe 200, 300 metre. It's not even really angry. They're just jumping through spots. And initially they what people saw was this huge caravan of torch relay, not just the runners and officials, but the buses of sponsors and deejays shouting from the top of those buses without well, in the masks. So that was during the rally, the beginning of fourth wave in March. So people are appalled. We were asked to cross the provincial borders and all these events are cancelled, but somehow the torch relay began. So many people gather to witness it. And then when the the criticism was mounted about the situation, the officials started, OK, no more people on the street. We have to like enclose this area off from public.

MG: The organisers, I mean, then that's just part of how the organisers have taken these different tactics to try to. To make the game safe, I mean, there will not be spectators coming from overseas. They're saying that this could be sort of a made for TV event, that the athletes would be tested every single day. And there's this playbook that keeps being revised in terms of the covid guidelines. Given all of that, are you confident that the games could be pulled off in a safe way?

SATOKO ITANI: I don't believe so, because if you look at the playbook, they outlines a lot of measures to keep the Olympic safe and athletes may be protected quite well because they have to go through so many testings. And then the officials. And so the potentially I don't believe this measurement would go perfectly because- but there is clear outlines of what needs to happen every day, testing an isolation measure. But when it comes to if what if, like, we find somebody tested positive, is there a hospital beds? Is there or like where do they even go? Is this like a hospital, isolated units? What Olympians? You know, there are a lot of things that's not answered.

MG: Why in the face of this, are the organisers so determined to pull this off?

SATOKO ITANI: Well, I think everybody is wondering and I'm guessing, why is this so important? And what's frustrating is that not many people are able to find the answers. So people say it's about money and that's very possible. But people who would make money probably already made a lot of money like the developers. And the IOC is famously, have insurance that will cover whatever they have to lose

MG: is part of this. Is it about pride as well?

SATOKO ITANI: Possibly. Like, you know, the Japanese, like especially conservative government, we have now have like a historically antagonistic against China. And in China, it's scheduled to host the Olympics next year. So if Tokyo cancelled then and China hosts really good Olympics, all really good looking, the Olympics, probably the pride will crush.

MG: Just finally, what do you think is going to happen this summer?

SATOKO ITANI: Well, it's really difficult to predict because many people said this will be cancelled by January and it is still going. But I will not at this point be surprised if the Olympics will go forward.

MG: We will wait and see. In the meantime, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you very much.

SATOKO ITANI: Thank you so much for having me today.

MG: Take care. Bye bye. Satoko Itani is a professor of sports and gender studies at Kansai University in Osaka, Japan. Well, even without the debate over whether the Olympics should happen or not, Canadian athletes hoping to qualify for those games have been going through the wringer for over a year. Races, trials and other pre Olympic competitions have been postponed or cancelled, forcing many athletes to pivot and then pivot again and again and again. Madeleine Kelly is Canada's champion in the 800 metre track race. She is currently training and racing in Portland, Oregon, and Sydney Pickrem is a swimmer who competes in the individual medley event. She's in Toronto. Good morning to you both.

SYDNEY PICKREM: Good morning.

MADELEINE KELLY: Morning.

MG: Madeleine. What goes through your mind when you hear that people in Japan have a lot of concerns about whether the Olympics should even go ahead?

MADELEINE KELLY: I think they're completely justified in their concern. I have concerns as well. In my mind, it's still not a completely done deal that there will even be a games, especially when you see that the polls just continue to climb when the Japanese public are asked if they even want a games to happen.

MG: What are your concerns?

MADELEINE KELLY: Well, it's a concern primarily for the Japanese health and safety, because it seems like Canada, especially in the past few weeks, is headed in a better direction when it comes to vaccination. But when you hear that Japan is nowhere near our vaccine numbers, that's certainly concerning. And you also have to take into account that covid is bigger than the Olympics.

MG: I mean, and I want to get Sidney in in just a moment. But there was an announcement that Pfizer is going to be providing vaccinations for athletes. Does that assuage any personal concerns you might have about travelling and going to something like an Olympics in the middle of a pandemic?

MADELEINE KELLY: Well, I certainly personally feel more comfortable doing international travel and living in a village with people from all around the world if I am fully vaccinated. However, I don't forget about the fact that that means that they're a bunch of people in less privileged countries who are still not able to get vaccinated. And those guys are vaccines that are going to us are potentially a Pfizer vaccine that someone more in need isn't getting.

MG: Sydney, what about for you? I mean, do you worry what it's going to be like when you get to Japan?

SYDNEY PICKREM: 100 percent. I always am going to think about what it's actually going to be like if the time does come. And I agree in the fact that I think it's hard to take news actual literally saying we're going to the Olympics. I think we won't really believe it until we're actually there. But I definitely have concerns. You know, it's a hard situation. I mean, no one can prepare for this. This has never happened before, so the unknowns is definitely a bit daunting, but at the end of the day, we have to control whatever we can control.

MG: Tell me about preparing. You've been training in Toronto for the past several months, but you weren't originally supposed to be there, right?

SYDNEY PICKREM: Yeah. So I actually swam at Texas A&M for five and a half years. And then I we were lucky to have an opportunity to actually race in the middle of this pandemic. And we went over to Budapest, Hungary, in a bubble scenario for the international suddenly. And after that, I made the decision to move to Toronto because I knew I would have to do a two-week quarantine prior to the Olympic trials. And so that was just kind of the smartest time to take those two weeks out of the water. And so I moved here and I've been super lucky with the high performance exams that we get to train out here at the centre. And I've had a pretty good training scenario, especially compared to a lot of people. And and I'm so grateful for that. But yeah, I've been swimming out here since December, and that's not necessarily the Olympic preparation I would have pictured, but it is what it is.

MG: What about for you, Madeleine? You're in Portland. How did you end up in Portland, Oregon?

MADELEINE KELLY: I, like Sydney, had the high performance exemption over the winter. So I was training in Toronto. And then as the weather was getting warmer at West, we we being me in my one training partner, went to Victoria, B.C. for the month of March where we trained and competed. So those were the only Canadian outdoor competitions that have really been held since probably about a year. I came back to Ontario fully intending to train and race in Ontario through the summer. But as the case has got worse, there became a question whether or not there would be any racing available in Ontario ahead of the potential Olympic trials. So I had to make a last minute decision to come to the States.

MG: When you're moving around. I mean, what does that do for your preparation?

MADELEINE KELLY: I mean, I've been very lucky. There's a high performance training centre in Victoria, so that's why we were there and we had to serve a quarantine upon arriving in B.C. But then after that quarantine period, we were very well taken care of. And then actually where I am in Portland, we are staying with my teammates sister, who is also an extremely elite Canadian runner. She's actually away at altitude right now. So we just are alone in her apartment. But no, it's not ideal to spend this much time on the road, but this is kind of as good as it could possibly get.

MG: Sydney, you have been nominated for the Olympic team rather than qualifying through a pre Olympic race. What does that mean?

SYDNEY PICKREM: So basically in January, I think was when I got the call from Swimming Canada and from the COC saying that they were going to nominate six swimmers based on the performances in 2019. And we didn't know that that was even going to be the situation. I mean, I moved here because I was going to compete at the Olympic trials. So I didn't expect this whatsoever. And it was a hard thing to process, I think. I mean, I've made my first Olympic Games and I remember those moments when you touch the wall, you qualify all those emotions. And so to go these four or five years training, and that's kind of what I envisioned making my second Olympic team would have those emotions. And to just be on a Zoome call, eating my breakfast, trying to get ready for the next training session and get that call that you're going to the Olympics was so out of the ordinary. And I'm forever grateful. But I also feel a lot for my training members, the people that I see that work hard every day. And I know that they deserve just as much to be in my position. And I'm just kind of waiting for them to get their opportunity to prove that.

MG: What about for you, Madeleine? You're still trying to qualify and you've been very, very close. But what are the opportunities that are left for you to make the team?

MADELEINE KELLY: So I have two more races left that I have planned in California while I'm in the States. And then Athletics Canada is making the call the week of May 17th as to whether or not they will hold the national championship and whether or not there will be what they've called a domestic racing series. So those would, in theory, be more opportunities for me to qualify. However, if that gets cancelled, I will have to decide basically if I come home, serve a quarantine and then return to either Europe or America for one last shot, or I just stay in the States until I've qualified.

MG: And you have to hit a qualifying time. How close are you to that time?

MADELEINE KELLY: I am within a second.

MG: Within a second, yeah.

MADELEINE KELLY: So over eight hundred metres. That's actually a lot. Yeah, but we're getting there.

MG: I'll ask you both this, but Sydney, I mean how do you prepare given everything that's going on outside of what you can control. We're in the middle of a pandemic. Can you put any of that out of your mind?

SYDNEY PICKREM: I think as athletes, it's hard being, normally, I can look for the next two and a half years and always know kind of where I'm going to be. So this past year and a half has just been so different. The last time I raced long course was almost a year and a half ago. And I haven't been to a meet and we just don't have that opportunities. And we haven't had any time off since January because we were planning to have our trials in April. And when that was pushed back, it was pushed back until May. And then last week we got the call that are pushed back until June. And you're just like, OK, I guess we just keep going. And it's been a really, really hard thing as athletes to process the concept of just, OK, now we keep going, OK, now we keep going and we just have to continue to prepare. You don't have that come down. You're just on a constant level. And I think it does get exhausting and daunting for a lot of swimmers.

MG: What about for you, Madeleine? I mean, you said earlier that in some ways there are things that are bigger than the Olympics. Clearly, you're aware of what's going on around you. How is that impacting you, thinking about this incredible goal of getting to an Olympic Games?

MADELEINE KELLY: I mean, I think about it a lot. And I feel like right before I left for this this trip to Portland, the announcement, state of emergency announcement was made in Ontario and there were talks of police checks on the streets. And just these really terrible things that are happening that have absolutely nothing to do with qualifying for the Olympics and qualifying for the Olympics is a stressful thing. But, yeah, there there are constant reminders that there are really troubling things happening in the world. So when you put those two things on top of each other, it just felt like I shouldn't be travelling. Like, why? Why is what I'm doing so important? This feels selfish when there's so many bad things going on. Why do I deserve these resources? Because I have been given a lot of government resources through this pandemic with the idea that I am an Olympic hopeful and the Olympics are important and Canada needs to send a team. And while I'm very grateful, you're constantly reminded of the fact that there are so many people who are having a really hard time right now,.

MG: It's a really thoughtful answer. And it's difficult the position that you're in trying to do something amazing. But in, you know, unprecedented circumstances, as they say, puts you in a real bind. I'm glad to speak with you both. And I wish you both the best of luck. And I hope things work out. And come summer, we're watching you on television and shouting praise and cheers at you from far away.

SYDNEY PICKREM: Thank you so much,

MG: Madeiline Kelly is Canada's champion in the 800 metres. She joined us from Portland, Oregon. Sydney Pickrem is a member of the Canadian Olympic swim team. She was in Toronto. So are the Olympics important in this moment? Is this a good idea? People who love the Olympics talk about how the games bring people together, and certainly people could do with a lift in this moment. But we are in the midst of a global pandemic. And as you heard, people in Japan are not at all interested, according to the polls and actually hosting the Olympic Games. So what do you make of the dilemma that athletes like Madeleine and Sydney find themselves in and should these games be moving forward? Your thoughts. Welcome. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca, tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or find us on Facebook. We are at The Current CBC. The CBC News is next. And then.

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We can vaccinate our way out of this epidemic. If all the adults and adolescents get vaccinated by summer, we can have an extraordinary quality of life.

MG: Dr. Peter Hotez has high hopes for the summer, but says they will be dashed if we don't get moving on vaccinations. He knows of what he speaks. He has spent his career developing vaccines. He's working on one now that is in trials for covid-19 and he's going to give it away. He'll join us to talk about that, but also to speak further about what he says needs to be done and how he believes that antiscience politics is poisoning our chances at getting out of this pandemic. That's coming up in about six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio.

Peter Hotez on how cheaper vaccines could help conquer COVID-19 globally

Guest: Dr. Peter Hotez

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, an intimate look at opioid addiction and the harm reduction efforts of the Kainai nation in Alberta. But first, fighting politics, conspiracy and antiscience in an attempt to get people vaccinated.

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MG: When talk about a covid-19 vaccine began, estimates on when we would all be getting the shots were quantified in years, certainly not months. Well, now that it's out there in record time, the next hurdle is making sure that everyone has equal access. Dr. Peter Hotez has been hoping that his vaccine will help fill the need. Peter is co-director of the Centre for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital and the dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. Dr. Hotez, good morning.

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Good morning. Thanks for having

MG: me. It's great to have you back on the programme. Tell me about the vaccine that you're developing.

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Well, our team at Texas Children's Hospital, we've been developing vaccines for neglected diseases of poverty, you know, diseases like just a symbiosis and Chagas disease, which are common afflictions of the world's poorest people. And we make the vaccines that the pharma companies generally are not in the position to make because there's no obvious financial return. And then about 10 years ago, we adopted a coronavirus vaccine programme because for similar reasons, nobody cared about coronavirus vaccines and so began identifying mechanisms of delivering the spike protein. And and then that's how we started our SARS and MERS programme. We just plugged in the covid-19 sequence into what we were doing and used the same approaches, methodologies and all of the all of the little modest things you can do to really scale up production efficiently and at low cost and wound up making what looks like a very exciting recombinant protein covid-19 vaccines. We've transferred the technology. We didn't file patents on it. We put everything in the public domain. And then we transferred the technology to Biological E, one of the big vaccine producers in India. And now there they have the capacity to scale it up to a billion doses, which is amazing because we've never made a billion of anything before. And now it's entering phase three final clinical testing in India with the hope that it could be released for emergency use authorisation in India sometime over the summer and then after that globally. So we're hoping we can make an important contribution to this terrible, terrible situation that we have not only in India, but in Africa and Latin America.

MG: A few things there that I want to pick up on. One is India. Initially, you see being used. And where else do you see this vaccine being used?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Well, it's well suited for any resource poor settings. So because it's one you can make a lot of it. It's very high producing yeast strains. Second, it's relatively low cost. About a dollar fifty a dose, I think is one of the least expensive of the covid-19 vaccines and simple refrigeration. So as a result, we're hoping that this could be one of the major vaccines used in sub-Saharan Africa and in Latin America and the Middle East and low income countries in Asia. We call it a people's vaccine. And before, because of all those performance features, it could be used in the United States and Canada as well if we had a partner that wanted to accelerate it. And here, here in North America

MG: Why did you decide not to patent this vaccine?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Well, they're just both practical reasons and idealistic reasons. The practical reasons are international patent filings become a big expense very quickly. And, you know, since we were modestly funded by non-profit foundations, if you have limited funding, you know, if I have 100000 dollars, I'd rather use it for paying the salary of a scientist rather than paying a foreign patent fee. And so what we do is we put everything in the public domain. And what that does, it prevents others from blocking us so we can operate freely. And and then the other reason is, you know, most of our vaccines, you know, we want to maximise the likelihood they'll get used in low income countries. And our philosophy has always been if somebody wants to, you know, copy what we've done and from the papers, we're prepared to help them. It's a very different approach from what's typically done by pharmaceutical companies.

MG: Well, in those pharmaceutical companies are making billions of dollars on their vaccines. I mean, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

DR. PETER HOTEZ: We could be. But, you know, this is the reason why we created a centre in an academic health centre rather than moving to industry. We want to focus on really using science for humanitarian purposes. And it's not that the pharma companies don't. It's just that's not our primary motivation.

MG: You know, that there has been this push for weeks now, longer than two weeks to get those pharma companies to waive the patents for the covid-19 vaccines. The United States this week announced that it would support that. What difference do you think that is going to make in terms of getting more vaccines to the people who need them now in countries that perhaps wouldn't otherwise be able? Who access to afford those vaccines?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Well, I have kind of a, I don't know if it's unique by any means, but it's a somewhat unusual opinion and and that for vaccines, I think patents are far less important than we realise. You know, if you're for instance, if you're making an antiretroviral drug, a small a small molecule drug for something like HIV AIDS, if you have the structure of the of the compound more often than not, more often than not, you can identify a bunch of organic chemists to figure out how to produce it. And the only thing standing in your way is the patent in order to offer it cheaply. It's not the same with vaccines in some ways for vaccines. Patents are the least of it. It's the technical know how to know how to scale up, how to scale it up in the billions of doses. These are more complicated molecules. It's the technical know how to know how to produce it at scale and do it under adequate quality control and quality assurance and have the supporting regulatory authority. So my feeling is these patent waivers may have some benefit, but if I were to pick the top five or six barriers to getting vaccine access to low and middle income countries, waiving patents would not not even be on that list.

MG: What would be a top of the list on

DR. PETER HOTEZ: the top of the list right now is we're in a crisis. We need help from the U.S. government, other G7 countries, to produce lots of vaccine as quickly as possible, initially for India, but also for Africa and also in Brazil, that terrible situation there. So we need actual production of vaccine. So funding for that. And then second, in the long run, we have to identify mechanisms to build capacity in Africa and Latin America for producing vaccines. Right now, no vaccines are made on the continent of Africa. South America generally underachieve. Brazil has had some successes. No vaccines are made in the Middle East, with the exception maybe of Israel and Iran a little bit and very little and low income countries of Asia. So we have to build up that capacity and that process will take years. So in the meantime, I think it's all hands on deck trying to identify all of the sites for manufacturing and scale of production of these vaccines as rapidly as possible, making the raw materials free flowing so they can go to these places and providing the support to to make it happen. I mean, for instance, biologically is producing our vaccine a billion doses. But, you know, look at the numbers. We have a billion people in sub-Saharan at one point, one billion people in sub-Saharan Africa. 650 million people in Latin America, half a billion people in the small or low income countries of Asia right there. That's over two and a half billion people. Two doses of vaccine each, that's five billion doses of vaccine. We're not going to come from it. And the heart of the problem is the you know, everybody was so focussed on innovation, you know, making very good marnay vaccines. You know, I took the Pfizer biotech vaccine and I'm grateful for it. But, you know, with the brand new technology, there's a learning curve to how to scale it up. So we need more more low cost, unfussy vaccines that you could just make lots of it.

MG: You are also calling on the United States not just to help scale up the vaccination programmes in parts of the developing world, but also to help Canada. Why Canada?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Canada and also, to some extent, Mexico. I think, you know, I think for Canada, they're both pragmatic reasons and emotional reasons. You know, Canada's a population of, what? Thirty seven. Thirty eight million people when you're talking about the United States, which is which has almost ten times that, the amount of vaccine it would need to make available for Canada's only a 10 percent add on. So it's not a huge stretch for the United States to do it. That's number one. Second, it's in our own enlightened self-interest because we share a massive border. Right. One of the largest borders in the world. And as I say, you know, I mean, do we really think we can halt transmission in Detroit, Michigan, without stopping virus transmission across the Detroit River in Windsor, Ontario? Do we really think we can all virus transmission in Buffalo, New York, without doing anything across the peace bridge on the other side and Ontario? So the virus, certainly it's not going to recognise international borders. So we have to do it for our own interruption of transmission. And then there's there are emotional reasons. You know, I always like to say Canada has always been there for us. They've been you know, the United States has very few countries that give us what I call unconditional love. And in Canada has always been one of them. And I you know. Four years ago, I remember what happened after 9/11, and I remember, you know, I forget how many years, like thousands, maybe 100000 Canadians were in Parliament Hill, you know, in solidarity with the U.S. And, you know, we don't have a lot of other friends that do things like that for us. And an undisclosed conflict of interest by my grandfather is from Montreal. And that's a very interesting story, too. He was Jewish and Maurice Goldberg grew up in the [unintelliglbe] the Jewish quarter of Paris, and got up before the Nazis came in and and Montreal took him in and his brother. And, you know, I always say the only reason I exist is because of the goodness of the Canadian people.

MG: We have tentacles everywhere and the Canadian goodness.

DR. PETER HOTEZ: They're good tentacles.

MG: Does that mean I mean, you're looking at the United States shipping vaccines en masse to Canada to try to to stamp down the virus and to jack up the vaccination rates in this country?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Here's what I want. I would like the United States to treat every province in Canada like they would treat a state in the United States, make that vaccine fully available. And, you know, and I express that on Twitter and you know how wonderful Twitter is, right. As Lady Gaga calls it, the toilet of the Internet. But, you know, then people said, well, what about Mexico? And I said, yes, of course, we have to help Mexico as well. Mexico is a little more daunting. It's, you know, over 100 million people. The health system is is more fragile. We certainly have to start that process of helping Mexico. And I'm certainly supportive of that. And people say, what about India? I said, absolutely, we have to support India. But I said that dynamic there's a little different. That's a you know, we're talking about one point six million doses of vaccine. So providing 20 million doses of AstraZeneca vaccine, that helps. But, you know, what is it? It's a small district in the suburb of Delhi. I think they're the emphasis has to be on scale up production and giving India all the raw materials it needs to be successful. Remember, India is one of the largest producers of vaccines in the world. We give them all the tools that they need to be successful. I think that's got to be a priority and that may include some financial support as well. And also remember, now there's a domino effect because Prime Minister Modi, at least for the time being, has implemented an embargo for India to export vaccine. And the whole game plan for vaccinating the world relied heavily on India providing vaccines for Africa. So now there's a domino effect, and I'm quite concerned about that as well.

MG: Let me ask you about what's happening in your country, in the United States, where there have been reports from health officials suggesting that the whole idea of herd immunity looks less likely now that the number of vaccines that were going out an extraordinary rate, but that that seems to be plateauing. What's going on, do you think?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Yeah, I don't even like using the term herd immunity anymore because it's been so corrupted by political extremists on the far right and think tanks and coming up with fake numbers that you reach herd immunity at 25 percent or 40 percent or even stay away from the term. What I do say is we did modelling studies with a group at City University of New York that showed in order to really slow transmission, you have to get about 60 to 70 percent of the entire population vaccinated. And now with these new variants, which are more transmissible, like the Bee one one seven variant from the UK, which is the dominant variant, we're probably looking at 80 percent plus to halt transmission. That's a really high bar when you consider we lose around 15 to 18 percent right off the top for kids that are so far are now ineligible to get vaccinated under the age of 12. So pretty much every adult and adolescent and that's looking less and less likely. I'm hoping that things will still continue to pick up, but it's going to mean vaccinating almost all the adults and the adolescents. And unfortunately, we've never done anything about all the anti vaccine aggression that exists in the U.S. from dedicated anti vaccine groups that the Centre for Countering Digital Hate now estimates has 58 million followers, which is extraordinary. And we also have the problem that U.S. and British intelligence report about the Russian government under Putin has been flooding our Internet with the term that's being used as weaponized telecommunication to discredit Western vaccines in favour of Sputnik V, that's doing a lot of damage. And now we've got this expanding anti vaccine sentiment being expressed by the conservative groups in the U.S. This was a this started. And the reason I know about this is because in addition to be a vaccine developer, I'm the parent of a four adult kids. And my youngest daughter, Rachel, has autism. And I wrote this book a few years ago, called vaccines did not cause Rachel's autism and which made me sort of public enemy number one with the anti vaccine group, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., one of the lead anti vaccine activist, calls me on his Instagram, the oggi villain, which I had to look up at me and the original gangster villain. So so that you've invited the original gangster villain onto your show.

MG: How do you wrap your heads around that? I mean, given your own personal experience, given, you know, the advancement of science, how do you understand the user where the aggression of that movement?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Yeah, I know it's and it's very real. And it gets quite hard and it's taking this very ominous and dark turn with this politicisation to the to the far. Right now you've got New York Times and BBC reporting. Q and non-involvement and then all the stuff coming out of, out of Russia. It's it's now and I've been talking about this for a few years now, saying we've got we've as a country, we failed to try to stand up to it and really launch any type of counteroffensive, because the message I've always gotten from our U.S. government is, Peter, you know, we're not talking about this now. You have to stop talking about you'll just give it oxygen. And I said, you know, 58 million followers. It's got all the oxygen it needs that, you know, there's this failure. There's always been this tone deafness, this lack of situational awareness to recognise how widespread and mainstream this has become in American life and now globally. So it's not something I ever thought I'd have to be involved with. I got my M.D. and Ph.D. to make interventions to help save humanity, not go up against this. But, you know, sometimes you have you know, I had a Rachel and I found that this could be very helpful in helping to diffuse the anti vaccine lobby. And it did actually for a while. And I think I did a lot to help diffuse the fake links between vaccines and autism. But what happened was the anti vaccine groups always found ways to reenergize. So then in 2015, they found a way to ensconce themselves in the far right wing of the Republican Party, the Tea Party, under this fake banner of health, freedom, medical freedom, and that gave it new life and emphasis. And now they've exported it to Europe. And now they have fellow travellers or allies in the Russian government and others. So it's a become a very complex ecosystem or confederacy.

MG: How do you briefly on this? I mean, how do you go about in this iteration, deflating it and tackling it in a meaningful way? Who who's going to have to take that on?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Well, I've written an article, an essay in Nature magazine, which is one of the important science journals to say, we've danced around this issue for too long and now we have to really take a hard look at what are our levers to pull and push. And and here, you know, upfront, look, I'm a I'm a biomedical scientist. I'm a bit over my over my skis here on. And I'm not saying I have the answers, but what I do know is that this anti science empire has now become as formidable and complex as all the things that we put a lot of investment into, build infrastructure around, such as global terrorism or cybersecurity or nuclear proliferation. Anti science has reached that level, in my opinion, so that when you look at the half a million Americans who've lost their lives from covid-19, I say that's only partly because of the SARS to coronavirus. It was also the deliberate defiance of masks and social distancing that came out of the political right. And now this defiance of vaccines, because we have four major polls now conducted by Kaiser Family Foundation. They just came out with a new iteration, I think yesterday, PBS News Hour, Quinnipiac University, Monmouth University all say the same thing, that the most vaccine hesitant group in the United States right now are what are being called Republicans. 40 to 50 percent of people who identify themselves as Republicans are going to refuse covid-19 vaccines. And it's playing out right now. And if you go to, you know, any of the vaccination track or, say, The New York Times vaccination trackers and you look at the ranking of states by percentage vaccination, the top 10 states that are hitting 50 to 60 percent single dose are all blue or blue states. It's the New England states, New York, California, New Mexico, the bottom 10 states. They're all deep red states. It's Wyoming, Idaho, Alabama, Tennessee. And that disparity is going to continue. So we are going to be the default right now. Unless we figure out a way to control the anti vaccine craziness is we're going to be two countries, the blue in terms of vaccination, the blue country and the red kind of the blue country, the blue part of the country will hold virus transmission in the red country won't. And that's unacceptable. And so, you know, what I'm trying to do is everything I can to reach out to conservative groups. And and for a while, I was going back on Fox News and Newsmax and all those kinds of places. And now it's looks like I've been cut off again. But we've got to figure out a way to reach the conservative groups.

MG: Just before I let you go, I mean, you take a look at the situation in India and it's appalling. But it's not just India, as you mentioned. There's Brazil. There are other areas of the world where it seems as though this crisis is, if not escalating, then certainly nowhere near being contained. And yet in the United States, aside from the issue of vaccine hesitancy, there are many people who believe that the country has turned the corner. Where are we at in this pandemic, do you think?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: I think we're at is a situation where the northern hemisphere eventually will vaccinate its way out of this pandemic and leaving the southern hemisphere mostly bereft of vaccines, and it's something I hoped would not happen. I mean, look, the United States, I think, by summer is going to closely resemble something that looked pre pandemic. Canada will take longer. I mean, I think Canada will get there eventually. Now they're starting to get vaccine supplies and vaccines in UK. Will is figuring it out. Some of the Western European countries will figure it out. Israel has figured it out and that's about it. And and it may be one or two countries in the Middle East, but that's not going to go well either. I

MG: What does that leave us for as a world?

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Or at least his world is a lot of circulating virus and a raging epidemic, that's a raging pandemic that's going to go on at least for a couple of more years until we can figure out how to get it vaccines to the world's low and middle income countries. And that has to be a priority. What the Biden administration hasn't done I mean, they are moving in the right direction, right? They've rejoined Waco. They're joined the Kovács sharing facility. They've now are doing the patent waivers. They're giving some doses out. But it's kind of it's too small a too modest in terms of scope and magnitude. And what what they've not really done is they've not shaped a foreign policy for vaccine diplomacy. And I think that's going to be the next big step. They're doing kind of incremental things. It's certainly better than it was last year under under a different administration. But it's it's it's too little and and it's not coherent and it's not being explained or articulated to the American people what the plan is.

MG: I'm glad to have had the chance to talk to you again. You have a lot going on. So I appreciate you taking some time to speak with us. And I hope we have the chance to talk in future. In the meantime, Peter, thank you.

DR. PETER HOTEZ: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Peter Hotez is co-director of the Centre for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital and the dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. Coming up after your regional update, a look into life at the Kenai nation and how people there are in many ways, redefining what harm reduction means in their battle against the opioid epidemic. That story coming your way in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

How Kainai First Nation is overcoming the opioid crisis through harm reduction

Guests: Elle-Maija Tailfeathers, Dr. Esther Tailfeathers

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. Covid-19 has dominated our lives for over a year now, but throughout this pandemic, another epidemic, opioid overdoses, has continued at a deadly rate.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Alcohol is always been a problem. You always get calls for alcoholism. It wasn't told when you think it was when the fentanyl started.

VOICE 2: I think it got like a really bad two and a half years ago or something.

VOICE 1: Get people dropped off at the front of the fire home like three people at a time. And we're all trying. There's only four of us here at a time. Right. So every one of us is on a different patient trying to bag the patient and then get them back as kind of hectic at that time. But now it's now it's settled down way a lot more than what it used to be. Friends have gone into that. And it's a bad place for them right now. But I just wish it was is gone.

MG: That's Jeremy Weasel Moccasin, a paramedic with Kainai Nation, also known as the Blood Drive Reserve in southern Alberta. He's speaking with the filmmaker Elle-Maija Tailfeathers in her new documentary, Kimmapiiyipitssini The Meaning of Empathy. Elle-Maija captures the efforts of those struggling with addiction and recovery and the work in her community to try to help. One of the people who is helping is her mother, Dr. Esther Tailfeathers, who is a family physician on the reserve, and they are both with me now. Good morning.

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: Hello.

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: Hello.

MG: Elle-Maija, tell me why you wanted to tell this story in your community.

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: There were a number of reasons. The first was just that I was hearing from my mother, who was on the front lines of the crisis about everything she was witnessing. I was witnessing a grief in her community and I was also witnessing an incredible community mobilisation that was happening. And as a filmmaker, I felt an urgency and a responsibility to document this moment. And secondly, I was seeing a lot of misrepresentation and problematic representations of my community, especially in the news media. And there was a real focus on on the tragedy and the trauma and not so much focus on on that community mobilisation that was happening. And kind of is a is a national leader in terms of our response to the opioid crisis. And so I wanted to document that and I wanted to show the world the strength of our community and also be able to explore the ways that harm reduction has worked within our community.

MG: Can you tell me about your community? I mean, how would you describe the kind of first nation

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: Kainai is one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen in the whole world. It's it's the largest reserve in Canada. It's located at the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. Uh, there's probably around fourteen thousand members, half of which live on reserve. Your Blackfoot. We're part of the Blackfoot Confederacy and we are a beautiful people.

MG: What has addiction done to your community?

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: It's devastating that there isn't a single person in your community who hasn't lost a loved one either to be drug poisoning or opioid crisis or to other addictions related deaths. And so it's devastating as there's grief that's felt everywhere.

MG: Dr. Taylor, fathers, you would see this firsthand as a family physician. Tell me what you have seen. Fentanyl arrived in the community in 2014. When did you realise the scale of the crisis that was in front of you?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: We saw it mounting in August 2014, we started to see the deaths and it was almost as if how we see the pandemic, we see the surges and there was surges in deaths from August 2014 until we started mounting a community response and saw our first positive results in our response on March 30th, 2015, where we had no deaths due to our harm reduction approaches for three months, we had zero deaths. So we know that each of our measures has actually had a positive impact and saved lives within our community. So we have just continued to build on that.

MG: Your daughter was just saying that. I mean, there isn't anybody in the community who hasn't been touched by this.

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: That's right, everybody has either had a child or a parent or a cousin or a friend that has died from an opioid overdose.

MG: You were saying, Elle-Maija, that in some ways this film is a response to the coverage of that crisis. And we've heard, you know, across the country different communities talking about how the the overdose crisis has been portrayed, what was wrong with what the media was capturing and saying about your community.

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: Well, it's it's very complicated, I mean, racism on the prairies is so explicit, especially towards indigenous people. And so we were often framed through this this lens that's rooted in racist ideologies in a sense that we placed in a deficit. I was seeing news media come into my community and, you know, use a long lens and do these drive by shots of of of houses that were boarded up and of filming people without their consent. And it just felt so problematic because it wasn't showing the strength and the beauty of my community. It wasn't showing all of the community mobilisation. There are so many people who are educated and more than competent and capable of finding solutions within the community. And so I wasn't really seeing that in the news media. And I think it just kind of harkens to this long history of misrepresentation of of indigenous people. And this crisis was just another example of that.

MG: Esther, how concerned about that? Were you on the front lines of this crisis?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: Initially, trying to save lives was our number one priority. And so once we got going with harm reduction and recognise that actually harm reduction is part of our traditional belief system or value system where kimmapiiyipitssini means helping others who are in crisis. So harm reduction fits directly with that. And using that approach, we began to build momentum in the community. And I just wanted to add on to what Maia was saying, that our our community, as well as every indigenous community across the country, has been hit by trauma, poverty and racism. And it's all in historical context, in historical national policy. So all of us have been beaten down by historical policy based on racism and colonialism. So we need to change this narrative and paradigm that we hear from others and that we see in ourselves. We need to change this to a strength based approach from where we stand and we are starting to do that. So our community response is based on our traditional survival skills, where we are a camp and we need each other to survive. And with that approach, our people in the community have different strengths, skills and experience which has really contributed to ourselves getting ourselves out of this situation that we're in and caring for our people. And what I say is, if we stand alone, we perish. If we stand together, we will get through this.

MG: I want to talk about harm reduction. LMI, you went to Vancouver to learn about harm reduction on the Downtown Eastside. Tell me what you saw in that community.

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: Well, I've lived in Vancouver for over 15 years, and Vancouver's Downtown Eastside is a global leader in terms of implementing harm reduction. And when I started this film, I had so little knowledge of what harm reduction was. I think I had kind of the basic knowledge that most people do. But in spending time with harm reduction, advocates like the folks at the Western Aboriginal Harm Reduction Society and the Portland Hotel Society and then do the Vancouver area network of drug users, I learnt that harm reduction is rooted in empathy and that it's a way of thinking. It's a way of centring the dignity of drug users and alcohol users. It's a way of centring their voices and understanding that they absolutely need to be part of this conversation because they have the lived experience necessary to to find the solutions. And I also learn that the traditional abstinence based models, like 12 step programmes such as NA and AA don't really work in the context of of the opioid crisis. They have worked historically for for people who have alcohol addiction, but it doesn't really work for people with opioid addiction. And we saw that within our community.

MG: Why not? For people who might not understand that? Why wouldn't the abstinence programme where you just don't use, you cut yourself off from the substance? Why wouldn't that work?

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: Because it's a really unrealistic and inhumane expectation of people with an opioid addiction. Abstinence expects people to quit cold turkey just to quit altogether. And with the opioid crisis within our community, when people were being sent to treatment centres, traditional abstinence based treatment centres, they were leaving within a few days and then relapsing and using it at the level of substance they were using before going into treatment and they were overdosing and dying. So the abstinence model was killing our people. And and I think it has to do with just the strength of the biological addiction to that opiate ,opioid. Uh, people experience severe pain when they're going through withdrawal. And so in many cases, they're just trying to to end their pain and to feel somewhat normal again.

MG: This approach of harm reduction, Dr. Tailfeathers, was not initially embraced and it was difficult for some people to wrap their arms and their heads around. Why was that the case?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: Because our people are well trained in the abstinence based model. And as Maija said, the expectations are that they could just quit if they had made up their minds to just quit. They could. But we recognised earlier on in the situation that we sent a lot of our people to abstinence based treatment centres. They came home with a lower tolerance and most a lot of those people actually overdosed and died. So we know it was harmful to our people. The tables that we talked about many, many evenings we had community members at the table in the discussion was abstinence versus harm reduction. And there began to be more people at that table who had lost people, their children in their home. And when they realised that if they had naloxone in their hands to save that person's life, they would have used it. And it quickly became a conversation of how do we instil harm reduction in the community? How do we save lives? And the basic line that people had, if you, that you can't save a dead body, you cannot save a person who is dead and send them to treatment, at least with harm reduction, they've got a second chance.

MG: There's a word that's used in the phrase that it's attached to is giving kindness to each other. What is that word?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: [Unintelligible]

MG: and in the context of what you've just been describing, what how does that apply to the work that you started doing?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: I think when people started to see it within our own traditional value system and concepts, it was embraced because people saw themselves as being kind to their to their family members or friends through [unintelliglbe]. And, you know, like I have many mothers who have worried about their children. And I had one mother in particular who was sleeping out in her car and keeping her adult child who had an addiction in the house and safe. And so she went to great measures to to save her child. And that is through [unintelligible].

MG: Let me hear more about that. One of the people that we meet in the film is Linda, who is trying to overcome her addiction. She's getting care at a mobile unit.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Her last visit was good.

VOICE 2: Yeah.

VOICE 1: You're still really involved with your baby?

VOICE 2: Yes, I still go and visit. They wanted me to go for treatment and they wanted me to go for parenting classes. They're going to have visits here. And if those are going well, like everything is going perfect, then she'll be able to have sleepovers. And then like those sleepovers are good where she's happy like she is- there's nothing wrong with her sleeping here. And then I'll get her back.

MG: Doctor, Tailfathers how common is a story like that?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: It's very common. And we usually have family members who step in to raise the children and become the caregivers of those children. And we're trying to continue to maintain the bonds between mother and child in a safe way. In fact, our detox centre actually has a nursery, and if we have a pregnant mother that comes in, we follow her through her delivery and the birth of the child and bring the child in her directly back to detox so we don't break the bond between mother and child and try to support her. We've had four women who had successfully taken their children home with them, have made a home for their children and and they're supported. So that is much better than putting a child into the child welfare system and traumatising that family in that child even more.

MG: Elle-Maija, tell me about the mobile unit and how important this unit has been on the reserve.

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: Well, as I said before, the Blood Reserve is the largest in Canada, so it's huge. It takes time to drive across the reserve and there are many people who don't have transportation. And with Suboxone or opioid agonist therapy, people have to travel to the pharmacist every day to to have the dose witnessed when they take it. But that just isn't realistic for a lot of people or even possible for a lot of people. So on the borders, are they implemented the mobile medical unit? So there are two nurses who staff the unit and they go to people on the reserve and provide primary health care, but they also deliver Suboxone and are able to witness patients taking their Suboxone. And they also distribute harm reduction supplies like clean needles and and things like that to prevent the spread of disease and and keep people, as you know, relatively healthy as possible. And so I think it's an incredible measure and so necessary. And for people to to continue with their Suboxone therapy,

MG: it's a real struggle. And we see that in the film, just how difficult it is in the context that you're describing and with the pervasiveness of these substances to stay sober. Take a listen. From the film to two people, George and Leah.

SOUNDCLIP

GEORGE: 1977 when we started taking a program.

LEAH: That was a good treatment, like we both got to do something, clean up our act and everything.

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: What happened after you left last time?

LEAH: Oh, came back home. Came back home. And, no no no, there's like somebody passed away that night and that's the thing. So we just end up drinking and using again. That's about it.

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: When you go to treatment this time and you get out, what's going to happen?

GEORGE: I don't know, will just come back onto the streets?

MG: Elle-Maija, tell us a little bit about them.

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: Oh, I haven't seen them since last summer because of this pandemic I haven't seen most of my family. And George and Leah are two people who I hold very dear to my heart and. They are - sorry, I'm getting emotional. George and Leah are two of the strongest people I know. They are so kind and generous and they find ways to laugh. They they currently are without a home and they haven't had a home for a long time in the summers. They generally camp in a tent by the river and they live with alcohol addiction. And it's certainly a kind of represent a population that gets left behind in this crisis, which is people who live with an illicit alcohol addiction. So alcohol is not legally available for purchase on the reserves or in the nearby predominantly Mormon community of cards in Alberta. So they resort to drinking illicit alcohol because they can't afford to go into nearby cities to purchase it. And and it's a vicious cycle. And I don't know if people know this, but if you have an alcohol addiction and you quit cold turkey, it can actually be life threatening. So, George and Leah are kind of part of this, the cycle of people trying to get into detox or treatment. And in Alberta, all of the detox is generally have waitlists as a new treatment centres. And and I think really the issue with charging me is that they don't have housing, they don't have stability in their lives, and abstinence based models aren't necessarily going to change their situation. And we've seen that because they've gone to treatment multiple times. And every time they leave treatment, they end up back on the street because there isn't a safe, supportive housing for them. So they stay at the shelter on the reserve and they live in a tent in the summertime. And so there needs to be there needs to be work done to to take care of that gap and to take care of those people within our community. And I certainly hope this this film places some pressure on our our community leadership to take care of those people and to build safe, supportive housing. And I understand that that, you know, our community is is strapped for funding when it comes to to building housing. There are a lot of people who are living in crowded, crowded housing. And I certainly hope after this film we're able to build on this conversation and try and find a way to build housing for people like George and Leah and to consider alternative methods of treatment for their their alcohol addiction.

MG: You were very deliberate in calling them some of the strongest people you know. Why did you use that word?

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: Because they get up every day and they managed to laugh and smile and be kind to their friends and their neighbours, so generous, they they've given me many gifts. And I you know, I I don't know how they do it. I don't know if I would be able to do it. And they're treated in many cases as less than human, especially in the nearby community of Casten and by some of our our own tribal members as well. So they're very dear to me and and to my mother as well.

MG: Dr. Tailfeathers, this is hard work, particularly as a member of the community yourself. And there's a phrase that is used in this film to describe in some ways the effect of that work and its moral injury. What does that mean?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: That means that the that the injury does not come directly to me, or to the person who's working, but you see the people you love hurt by either racism or biased care or, you know, or neglect, pure neglect. And it hurts it hurts you because you can't change things for everyone. And because our battle is so intense and broad that it's hard to address every situation. So the more work we do in this area, and that includes social workers, teachers, physicians, nurses, all of us in the caring or service industry feel the moral injury to individuals like George and Leah. We feel that moral injury. But the weight of moral injury can really get to you over time if you don't have hope.

MG: So how do you cope with it?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: I stay busy, stay working with strategies. I love my community. We have very many very strong individuals who are doing their part everywhere in the communities. And Maija, her film shows many of those people who are hard at work every day. So I might be one voice, but there are a lot of people out there doing the work and we get strength from each other knowing that we're working towards saving and helping people.

MG: Can I just ask you just briefly just about the resources that are or aren't there for you? We know that in Lethbridge there used to be the safe supervised consumption site Arch's. It was shut down last year. What impact is that? Had Dr. Tail Feathers on the work that you're doing?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: I think it's had a direct impact in terms of many of our members live in Lethbridge and have been using the safe consumption site and there should have been further development in terms of offering detox. But I do want to say that this is the worst year ever for us. Never have we lost 91 people in one year to drug overdose. And I directly associate that with the closure of the safe consumption site. Many of our people died in back alleys or basements or abandoned houses because they didn't have a safe place to use and they didn't have the ability to have outreach help them. So I directly attribute those deaths and many of those deaths to the closure of the safe consumption side.

MG: Do you see that as a reflection of the stigma that your daughter was talking about, but also just broader the stigma that surrounds drug use and in particular issues of addiction?

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: Yes, I do see that. I think that we live in a very conservative world here and people do not understand the history behind addiction and how indigenous people suffer greatly with addiction and addictions basically is self medicating for depression, for trauma, for PTSD, for a number of issues. And without getting that help, we will continue to have the addictions. But people on the outside who have not had the struggles that many of our people have do not understand the difficulty of living day to day in poverty and being shunned and shamed with racism in communities such as Lethbridge. And in an environment where business is more important than recognising that human beings need to be saved.

MG: There's a lot of strength that runs through this film. And just finally, LMI, let me ask you about capturing some of that, particularly in working with your mom. What is it like to work on a documentary like this with your mom, but also about your mom?

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: It was an incredible experience to be able to go and witness all of that hard work that was happening in the community. I felt so deeply humbled and honoured to be able to see the solutions that were coming from within my community and to see all of the tireless work that was happening. Like my mother said, she's she's one voice and she's a very prominent and committed voice. And I am so proud of everything she does. But she's one of many voices. And and I certainly hope that when people see this film, they walk away with the same respect that I have for my community and also walk away with a sense of hope, because there has to be hope. It can't it can't all be about sadness and grief and pain. It has to be about about hope and finding solutions and committing to to doing more work.

MG: And Dr. Tailfeathers, you must be incredibly proud of your daughter for helping to tell that story and tell that story in the right way.

ESTHER TAILFEATHERS: Yes, I am. I'm very proud of all of the work that she does. But her tenacity in this situation and finding solutions on how. Film people in a very respectful manner has contributed to the understanding within the community and hopefully across the country after this film is released, helping to teach people a better approach to addictions.

MG: It's a very powerful film, and I really am glad to have had the chance to speak with you both. Thank you very much.

ELLE-MAIJA TAILFEATHERS: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Esther Tai feathers as a physician and canine nation in Alberta. Her daughter, LMI, a tail feathers is the filmmaker behind Kimmapiiyipitssini, the meaning of Empathy. It's part of the Hot Docs Film Festival that runs online this year until Sunday. Well, that is The Current for this Friday and for this week. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Kieu. Today, a conversation with Colson Whitehead, the brilliant author, Pulitzer Prise and National Book Award winning writer of the Underground Railroad, The Nickel Boys and more. Underground Railroad has just been turned into a TV series directed by Barry Jenkins. You'll hear Tom Power speak with Colson Whitehead about brooding fiction in truth and more. That is coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio One. In the meantime, I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend. And we'll talk again on Monday.

Friday May 7, 2021 Full Text Transcript

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