Ontario physician says public health officials, media, should be reporting undetected cases of COVID-19

Guests: Eileen Aldis, Yoni Freedhoff, Jason Kindrachuk

MG: Some say they are the gold standard on how to fight COVID-19. South Korea has slowed new infections down significantly and they've done it through a system of intense nationwide testing. Here in Canada, the rate of testing differs from province to province. British Columbia seems to be leading the way, but the country's most populous province, Ontario, has a serious backlog. Eileen Aldis lives in London, Ontario, and she's been trying to get a COVID-19 test for two weeks now. Eileen, good morning.

EILEEN ALDIS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How are you feeling?

EILEEN ALDIS: Well, I'm going to try not to cough in your ear.

MG: It's OK. If you're not feeling well.

EILEEN ALDIS: I'm doing okay all things considered. Thank you.

MG: Good. I'm glad you're doing, I mean, it's all relative, I suppose. Tell me a little bit about your experience. You started feeling symptoms, what, a couple of weeks ago?

EILEEN ALDIS: Yeah. So I had been feeling some different symptoms, but the main thing that was really disconcerting to me was very persistent, pretty severe chest pain, which had been going on for five or so days. So I decided to go to one of the COVID-19 assessment centres that had been set up in my hometown here in London, Ontario. And they're open daily, so I decided to go in and try to get a test. And that was on March the 19th.

MG: And part of this is about you. But the other element here is your parents. Tell me a bit about your parents.

EILEEN ALDIS: Right. So I'm staying with my parents right now. Normally I'm travelling, but I'm here with them during this time. And, you know, they're both seniors. And my dad is on dialysis. He's extremely immunocompromised and really amongst the most vulnerable. So having to share a space with him, I was even more concerned and wanting to be hyper vigilant.

MG: So you go to the testing centre and what happened?

EILEEN ALDIS: So we have been expecting a long wait. We'd heard stories of hundreds of cars waiting to be seen. However, when we went, there was nobody else there. So they had erected a sort of temporary tent and trailer and they had nurses outside with full protective gear. And, you know, they asked us why I was there, what my symptoms were. And then the second stage, which I understand not everyone gets to, a lot of people are just seen at that first point. However, we went into the assessment centre itself, which is located, this one anyway, inside a hockey arena, which made me extra glad to be home and it felt very Canadian, to be honest. But that was really the only comfort, because once I got inside, you know, it just became clear that there just were not enough tests. So, for example, when I first came in, there's a waiting area with this you know, the chairs spaced really far apart. And we're called over to talk to a couple of nurses who take your symptoms further and, you know, take your temperature and all of that. And then a nurse practitioner comes over to consult and she more or less said well you definitely have something, however, I'd love to test you for COVID, but we just do not have enough tests right now.

MG: What went through your mind when you heard that?

EILEEN ALDIS: Well, I was really disappointed, an element of frustration as well. You know, I understand that the tests are limited right now, but I kept questioning why that wasn't. My main concern was not only for my health, but of course, I was thinking of my dad.

MG: And you mentioned that to the nurses as well?

EILEEN ALDIS: Of course. Yeah. And, you know, they were compassionate and really kind and did understand my concerns, you know, knowing how how vulnerable someone already on life sustaining treatment is and having to share a space of them and not really having any other option there. But it just still was not possible.

MG: And so what happens then? They say, we'd love to give you the test, we can't because we don't have enough. You just go home?

EILEEN ALDIS: I went home. The advice was, you know, look, if you had COVID-19, which we wouldn't know for days anyway, because even if you're given the test, there's a waiting period, the advice would be the same whether you have COVID or not. And so that advice is to self isolate. And so what I've been doing is just isolating as much as possible within the home, which in my case means I've sort of tucked myself away in the basement and not been near anyone. We're being very vigilant about, you know, cleaning and washing hands and all of that.

MG: Have you spoken to any, I don't know whether you have a family physician or anybody else, but have you spoken with anybody else about this?

EILEEN ALDIS: I did. The end of last week, you know, it had been more than a week since I've been to the centre and I wanted to check in with her and get her input on this. And she basically told me, look, you're not going to get a test. I'm sorry to tell you, but, you know, she herself, as a family physician, had developed a new cough and so needed to get a COVID test. And even as a health care worker, she had had to drive from London to Kitchener, which is more than an hour on the highway and so if a healthcare worker like herself and also, you know, her husband is an E.R. doctor. So they're interacting with patients on a daily basis, if she has to drive to Kitchener for a test, I think that sort of paints a picture of the scarcity there.

MG: And she said, you're just not going to get a test.

EILEEN ALDIS: Yes.

MG: Take care of yourself. I hope you're feeling better. And I hope you know, that sense of isolation that you're in, down in the basement works out in terms of spreading anything and avoiding spreading anything to your parents. Eileen, thank you.

EILEEN ALDIS: Thank you so much.

MG: Eileen Aldis lives in London, Ontario. Not being able to get that test is one complaint. There are other concerns when it comes to testing across this country. As of last night, Ontario alone had a backlog of something like 70 to 100 test results at least. My next guest says there is a real urgency to get the real numbers of undetected cases of COVID-19. Dr. Yoni Freedhoff is an Associate Professor of Family Medicine at the University of Ottawa. Doctor, good morning to you.

YONI FREEDHOFF: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of what you've just heard from Eileen Aldis and her experience in London, Ontario? She doesn't feel well. The nurse there says she has something, but they can't give her a test because we don't have enough tests.

YONI FREEDHOFF: I mean, I think that's the key. It's not for a lack of desire or a lack of understanding that this would be useful. It's that we simply don't have the capacity or the ability to provide tests to everybody at this point. In fact, for the most part, we've been testing people who are in high risk populations. We've been testing people who are sick enough to be hospitalized, but everybody else like Eileen. Unfortunately, they will not likely be able to get tested. And as she was mentioning in regard to her family physician, sometimes health care professionals are not getting tests that they need. And as well, even physicians who are getting these tests may not get their results. You mentioned the backlog of thousands and thousands of tests. Those include health care professionals. I have a friend I was speaking with yesterday here in Ottawa who is a surgeon in the hospital, and she's now 12 days waiting for the results of her tests. Twelve days where she's not been able to go into work, 12 days where if she had contact with people who if she were positive, she was able to trace back her contacts. It's a concern. And I know that everybody's working hard to try to improve upon that. I don't think this is a matter of negligence. This is just a matter of the reality on the ground right now.

MG: We'd hoped to speak with the health minister for the province of Ontario this morning. She wasn't available, but we do know that Ontario wants to buy something like a million test kits from a company in Ottawa that's developing a portable test. They're waiting for regulatory approval from Health Canada. What difference do you think those kits could make?

YONI FREEDHOFF: I think that the kids will make a difference and they will come online. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. We will see real changes to testing, but what we could see sooner than that. If there were a will and an interest is changes to the way we discuss cases here in Ontario. I'm looking, for instance, at a headline right now from the CBC stating Ontario announces 211 new cases of COVID-19 bringing provincial total to 1355. That's 1355 known cases. We also know that epidemiologist and infectious disease specialist estimate there are tens of thousands of people currently infected with COVID-19, all of whom who can spread the disease. And yet we refer to this number of cases and perhaps it provides people with false senses of security and assurances that perhaps things aren't as bad as all that. And I can tell you, as a clinician working with patients on a regular basis still, as well as a family member, there are people out there who believe that the number of cases in Ontario isn't particularly high as a consequence of these ongoing headlines that don't explicitly provide context in terms of how many tens of thousands of people in Ontario may currently be affected, are infected with COVID-19. The other. Sorry, go ahead.

MG: I was going to say that that reporting is done in part because that's those are the numbers that we get from Health Canada or from the provincial health agencies. Right?

YONI FREEDHOFF: Absolutely. And so I think that it would be important and I know certainly here in Ottawa, where I live, our medical officer of health, Dr. Vera Etches, she has been absolutely forthright about the thousands of cases who are currently undetected in Ottawa. I think it's an important piece of information that should be included at every press briefing, in every bullet point and every tweet that refers to cases here in Ontario. And it goes further and we need to be more transparent around what is actually happening in our hospitals. There was a report on the CBC and I certainly knew this to be true before the report as well, that there are plenty of people currently on ventilators who are suspected of having COVID-19, but who haven't been tested or whose test results aren't back yet. And as a consequence, when we hear about I.C. use and how many people are there currently with confirmed COVID-19, it forgets this number of suspect suspected people. Right now, it would appear as if our capacity for ventilators and ICU beds in Ontario, we're at about three quarters capacity where the majority of those are suspected cases, not confirmed. But we need to report that to the public rather than hold it tightly to our chests. I think transparency is important, not as a matter of fear, but again, as a matter of providing important context for decisions to be made at an individual level as well as at a policy level.

MG: Can I go back, just in the last minute that we have, go back to something that you said earlier, which is that this can create a false sense of security. What's at stake if there isn't a true transparency that you're calling for? If we don't actually know what's going on and we aren't saying in some ways that we don't know really what's going on.

YONI FREEDHOFF: I think that people might not take physically distancing recommendations as seriously as they ought to. The stay at home recommendations. I mean, really, unfortunately and sadly, within a week or two, everybody will understand the severity of this. But had we from the get-go been reporting not only the known number of cases, but pointing out the limitations of testing, the paucity of testing and the predicted or estimated number of undetected, but yet still infectious people with COVID-19, maybe people would have been better at staying home and more careful when they are out.

MG: Doctor, good to speak with you. Thank you.

YONI FREEDHOFF: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Dr. Yoni Freedhoff is an Associate Professor of Family Medicine at the University of Ottawa. Jason KindraChuk is the Canada Research Chair in Emerging Diseases at the University of Manitoba. Joins us from Winnipeg, which is home of the National Microbiology Lab. Jason, good morning to you.

JASON KINDRACHUK: Good morning.

MG: When you hear those concerns about communicating the real severity of this panic, including a sense of unconfirmed or likely cases, what goes through your mind?

JASON KINDRACHUK: You know, I completely agree with Dr. Freedhoff to a T. I think for us, the the issue is, is that we we know how rare disease is. We know how quickly it is spread just in the last 12 weeks, but we really need to get that that messaging out to the public. You know, the limitations of testing in the end, you know, really what what we're kind of up against to try and reinforce this idea of fiscal distancing and the other preventative measures that are being undertaken. If we are we are at a critical stage right now with, you know, with how this disease is transmitted in Canada. And we still have a chance to curb things, but we're you know, time is of the essence.

MG: So the doctor mentioned the medical officer of health in Ottaw,. Dr. Vera Etches, who said that this city, that city kids could see as many as 4000 new COVID-19 cases per day. That can be alarming to some people, but is is that stark warning what's necessary to try to get that message across?

JASON KINDRACHUK: Yeah, you know, I think we're at a point where it is. And I go back to the idea that very unfortunately, that when this virus started to spread through China, you know, we obviously we saw that there was some association between infection with severity of disease and in higher age groups, in particular, seniors. So. That suddenly created this false sense of security for poor people that were younger. And now we know the data that's come out of the United States has shown that a beer at the very least hospitalisations across all age groups. I'm above the age of 20 is actually fairly normalised and obviously quite concerning. So you know what? Again, I think all this data, these are the reasons that we need to reinforce the these ideas. This is not just a disease that affects the most vulnerable. It affects everybody across the board. And on top that if we get to a point that we max out the the amount of available space with people that are coping, 19 patients now, that also decreases the ability to respond to people that have other maladies that need be taken care of, that at hospitals or health care centres.

MG: Let's talk about testing. How bad is the backlog and getting test results from your perspective?

JASON KINDRACHUK: You don't. I think it's a variable across region, right? And I'm concerned about it. You know, I spent time, obviously, in West Africa during the Ebola epidemic running diagnostics. We knew how critical it was at that time to get test results back so we could get people separated and identify those cases that that that were confirmed here. I'm quite concerned about the backlog. I think, you know, obviously this is something that that has affected people on a global scale. And I think that, you know, we need to reinforce that messaging that this is not just an issue with, you know, with kind of lackadaisical attitude in Canada. But I think at the same time, I think one of the critical things we need to do with this backlog is start to look at, you know, the addition of you don't say things like academic labs or or private laboratories to to help at least with with backlogs. Once once we have those reagents to take some of the pressure off the provincial and national labs.

MG: Well that's the other issue without the reagents, there's the shortage of tests. We heard from Eileen. She can't get a test. Her own doctor, her own family physician can't get a test. Why is this such an issue?

JASON KINDRACHUK: Well, the issue is that what's happened with these tests is we've become reliant essentially on a core group of of chemicals or reagents to run the tests. And the unfortunate side is that, of course, this pandemic didn't spread at the exact same time. Every reach in the world. So what's happened is that obviously, you know, certain nations that got hit hard up front, you know, tested like crazy as they should have an end to their to their own betterment. But now we're in a position where there is, you know, a backlog or a potential dearth of reagents available for the rest of us. So, you know, I think that's where the concern comes in. So I do have a lot of hope with some the point of care tests that that have been approved in the U.S. recently and looks like they will go forward in Canada. I think that will help.

MG: In the absence not just of test results, but of tests actually being done, do we actually have any idea then how widespread COVID-19 is across this country?

JASON KINDRACHUK: So that's a great question. You know, I think, I'm not a disease modeller. I'm a, you know, a simple PhD virologist, but I look back on the fact, I think that if people have been able to make some good assessments based on what we've seen out of populations from around the world so far, with being able to look at what has been confirmed at a period of time, and then once they've gone back through some of the backlogs, figure out what the actual number is. We will also get a better idea fairly soon. There's a sort of all day test which looks for antibodies that has been developed recently reported that will allow us to actually go out into populations and get an assessment on who actually has developed some sort of an immune response to exposure to the virus. And that will give us some guidance on exactly how many people in the community have truly been exposed or infected by this virus.

MG: Do you have a sense as to where we land globally on this? I started by talking about South Korea, which a lot of people believe is the gold standard because they did such extensive testing. People have been paying close attention, of course, to what's happening in the United States as well and what has been widely described as a failure when it comes to getting tests out in an efficient way. Where does Canada land in this?

JASON KINDRACHUK: You know, in my mind, I think we're actually, we're doing quite well. Singapore and South Korea set the gold standard for their testing and as well as Germany, to be fair, you know, they've had just had an excellent upscaling strategy so far. I think, you know, I think we've definitely fall, you know, above the United States, although I think the U.S. obviously has had a number of issues with their strategy. I think we're doing well, given the circumstances where we're at. I would like to see some additional coordination between the provinces in terms of messaging, but I think that will come in time. I mean, this is a new virus and unfortunately, things that applied in the past for things like influenza, I think now where we can't necessarily translate those directly to what we're dealing with with COVID-19, so that, you know, the rules are are changing and adapting in real time as well.

MG: You mentioned Ebola and the work that you've done on that. Just briefly tell us about what you learned from that.

JASON KINDRACHUK: Yeah. You know, there were quite a few things we did. The biggest thing that I learned is the fact that, you know, I went in its temper 2014 into Liberia. That was a period of time where generally the public still did not believe that that the virus is real. I think at that time, I was quite struck by the fact that you could see so many people sick and have, you know, a general pushback from a large contingent, the population not believing that this was as severe as it was. You know, my biggest lesson that I've tried to talk to people now that I think this is not just what happens in vulnerable regions of the world. We're seeing it here. We have a lot of people who simply if they accept that it's a real virus, but they don't believe that it's as severe as it is.

MG: We saw that this weekend. I mean, spring is, you know, popping up across the country and in some areas and in Toronto and Vancouver and other areas, we saw people still out gathering.

JASON KINDRACHUK: Yes. Same thing here and in Winnipeg as well. Right. And I think, again, there's this misnomer that this is just a disease that affects a very small portion of the population. And that is something that I think we need to message back against and at the same time, we need to applaud ourselves for the decision that Canada is in and how we've responded so far, but we also need to again continue with the messaging of so we are essentially at a precipice. We have two choices. We can either continue to try and curb transmission and bass and make some short term sacrifices to reduce the long term burden or, you know, we kind of continue down this path of not taking it seriously as a public and seeing this thing extend out or for lengthy periods of time.

MG: Jason, good to speak with you. Thank you.

JASON KINDRACHUK: Thank you so much for having me.

MG: Jason Kindrachuk is an associate professor at the University of Manitoba, Canada Research Chair in Emerging Viruses. We'd love to hear from you about testing. Have you tried to get a test? Are you in the health care world, doctor, nurse, physician and you failed to get a test? Let us know. You can reach us through the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. The news is next and then we asked kids around this country to submit questions to us about COVID-19. We got some great questions, answers coming from two CBC personalities, Dr. Brian Goldman and Tai Poole from the podcast, Tai Asks Why. That's coming up in about six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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Brain Goldman answers questions from kids

Guests: Brian Goldman, Tai Poole

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, each province is handling this pandemic differently. In 30 minutes we'll check in across Canada and compare notes. But first, kids, this is for you.

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MG: We've been getting a lot of mail with questions about the coronavirus. Last week we took some time to answer adult questions. Now it's time for the kids. We put out a call last week, asking specifically for questions from children and teens. We heard from many, many of you. Thank you so much for your thoughtful and curious questions. We're going to try and answer as many of them as we can today. So parents, turn the radio up. Call the kids. Get them ready. We have a couple of experts here to help out. Tai Poole is from the CBC podcast, Tai Asks Why and Dr. Brian Goldman, host of White Coat, Black Art and the CBC podcast The Dose. He is an emergency room physician as well. Good morning to you both.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Good morning, Matt.

TAI POOLE: Hello.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Hi Tai.

TAI POOLE: Hey.

MG: Tai, you have a podcast, it's all about asking questions. Plus, I'm sure you have a lot of questions as well because you're a kid. What have the last couple of weeks been like for you?

TAI POOLE: I mean, I've been kind of anxious. You hear all the stuff in the news, but that doesn't even pale in comparison to the fact that I'm so cooped up. There's only so much of your family that you can deal with. Right?

MG: I'll let you go first, because we have a lot of questions from listeners. But, you know, you have the opportunity here to ask the doctor something specific. Do you have a question for Dr. Goldman?

TAI POOLE: Yeah. I do, actually. Hey Brian. Me and my family recently went travelling to New Zealand and then, you know, om the airports and in the airplanes, you hear people coughing and, you know, you see people that just look kind of sick. But I feel fine. So how would I know I'm sick?

MG: Well, Tai, first of all, let me say, it's a pleasure to speak with you, and I'm glad that we're on a first name basis. So let let me let me start to answer your question. You'll know you're sick if you have symptoms. The symptoms of COVID-19 include cough, fever, difficulty breathing, general weakness and fatigue. You know, if you were to get a chest x ray, it might show pneumonia in both lungs. We certainly hope that isn't gonna happen with you. Emergency physicians like me who've seen some patients with COVID-19 say a lot of them have loss of appetite and loss of the ability to smell. You just stop smelling stuff and you might get some nausea, vomiting and a bit of diarrhea. But some people may have little or no symptoms. So you may not know you have symptoms of COVID-19 because they're so similar to a cold or flu. Symptoms may take up to 14 days to appear after you've been exposed to somebody who has COVID-19. That's the longest period of time. We think in most people it's a lot less. More like five to seven days. And, you know, researchers are trying to figure out whether people who have COVID-19 but have no symptoms can transmit the virus to other people. That's possible, but we don't know for certain.

MG: And so Tai should stay in isolation.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: For the 14, yeah, for the 14 days. The idea is to get to, you know, well past the 99 percentile of people who could possibly have gotten COVID-19 from somebody.

MG: Excellent. All right. So we asked for questions. We got a lot of them. Let's get to some of the questions from listeners. This is from 8-year-old Penelope from Toronto. Have a listen.

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VOICE: Why don't kids with COVID-19 show symptoms as often as adults?

MG: Very straightforward question, Dr. Goldman.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: So for Penelope, the symptoms of COVID-19, are similar in children and adults. So cold like symptoms that I've just talked about when I answered the question to Tai. Vomiting and diarrhea have also been reported more often in kids. And as Penelope said, kids with COVID-19 generally have presented with milder symptoms than adults. And experts aren't certain why adults and especially older adults, tend to have a more serious form of COVID-19. It may be that as we get older, the immune system is less able to fight off the infection. And certainly the older people get, the more likely they are to have diseases like diabetes and high blood pressure and heart disease and chronic lung disease. So when older adults who have these diseases get COVID-19, they tend to get more severely ill. We don't know yet whether some children may be at higher risk of severe illness. You know, for instance, children who have underlying medical conditions and special health care needs and that's something we need to learn a lot more about.

MG: We got some and this kind of picks up on that. We got some questions about the survival rate for kids. These are anxious times and we heard some of that anxiety from Tai. Brian, just talk a little bit about that briefly, if you could, to alleviate some of the fears that kids might have.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Yeah. You know, and certainly whenever we hear reports there was a report of an infant in the United States who died, and those are going to happen because we're talking about a disease that's going to affect 30 to 50 percent of us. But I can certainly alleviate the fears that parents and some kids may have, you know, because young children and even some teens may not be as reliable as hand-washing and physical distancing, they may be more likely to infect one another. So they're going to be a major source of new cases of COVID-19. So that's why they need to physically distance themselves and and not have playdates and that sort of thing. But children appear to be at very low risk of severe disease and death and I haven't seen anything to make me think otherwise.

MG: Excellent dr. Goldman. Tai, you have a question from a listener. Who are we going to hear from?

TAI POOLE: This is a question from Nora. She's 11. She wrote to us Saskatchewan asking this. If you get COVID-19, are you immune?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, Nora, because we're in the early stages of figuring out covered 19. I can't answer that question for certain. The answer really depends on how quickly the virus mutates or changes. Experts believe it's not mutating quickly. So I think that my kind of back of the envelope answer right now is that if you recover from COVID-19, you're probably immune for at least a few months. But if this turns into something that visits us every season, then then it's possible that the COVID-19 becomes or you know COVID-20 or COVID-21, COVID-22. I hope that doesn't happen, but if it does, you may not be completely immune to that.

MG: These are great questions. Tai, we have another one. Who are we going to hear from now?

TAI POOLE: This one's from Tess here in Toronto. She's eleven.

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VOICE: I was wondering if you have a broken limb, are you still able to go to the E.R.? Can you still go to the doctors for your yearly check-up? And lastly, how do they test people for COVID-19?

MG: Those are all great questions. A few different ones there. Start, brian, if you would, with people visiting an E.R. or the family doctor. If they have to go there for something other than COVID-19, is that still safe?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Yeah, it is. And let me start by saying to Tess, I hope you don't break an arm or leg. But if you do, you should definitely go to the emergency department. You're still able to go. In fact, you should go because that's the place where you're going to have a broken arm fixed or stitches if you need them. You know, grown ups with heart attacks and strokes should definitely call 9-1-1 and get taken to the emergency department. You know, we have figured out ways to separate the patients with COVID-19 from the ones who don't so that we don't spread the infection around. And you know we're creating whether it's green zones and amber zones and red zones, but we're trying to cope, we call it cohorting. We're gonna put the COVID-19 patients on one side of the emergency department and put the non-COVID patients on the other side of emergency.

MG: So the doctor's office is still a safe place to go?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Yes, if your doctor is running office hours and and of course. Check with your own doctor, because some of them have modified their hours as they as they start to do virtual visits. And you may be able to see your doctor by, you know, by Google Hangout or, you know, one of the secure ways of Zoom or something like that.

MG: Tess's other question was just about testing. How do you test people for COVID-19?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, Tess, doctors and nurses and other health care providers will take a swab from way up inside your nostril. It's called a nasal pharyngeal swab. It looks like a very long, very thin and very flexible Q-Tip. I've had it done to me.

MG: Does it hurt?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: It tickles. It tickles and it irritates a bit. It may induce a cough. It's not painful. Of the person who, by the way, you know, they'll put a mask on you and the person who does the test will be will be gowned and wearing face protection and a mask. So we don't want them to cough on the health care provider. The thing is, though, you probably won't get a test done unless you get sick with suspected COVID-19, and probably not unless you get admitted to hospital. And, you know, certainly we're you know, they're ramping up more testing. And and and so I expect that that that's going to happen more often. But but there's been, frankly, rationing of testing in many parts of Canada. Now, the other thing is that will detect the virus or particles of the virus, and they test three things to see, to see. You know, it specifically is that COVID-19 and not some other virus. Eventually in the next few weeks, we hope to have an antibody test. This is a blood test that will determine whether you were recently infected with COVID-19. If we get that, then we're gonna know if people are already immune. And we don't have to worry that if they get symptoms of a virus that that we know that it's not COVID-19 because they were recently infected.

MG: All right. Let's keep going. We have lots of questions to get to. This is from 8-yea- old Grace from Logi Bay in Newfoundland. We've got a lot of questions like this one. Have a listen.

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VOICE: I would like to know how that coronavirus started and how the doctors knew that the first person had it.

MG: Brian?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Grace, that is a wonderful scientific question. You know, since COVID-19 first appeared in Wuhan, China, late last year, scientists have been trying to figure out exactly the answer to that question. Now we know that this is the seventh coronavirus known to infect human beings. And researchers have concluded that this virus was not created in a test tube. It's not some biological weapon, It occurred naturally. As many of the early cases of COVID-19 were linked to a particular market in Wuhan, it's possible that an animal source was present at this location, that's what's suspected. Since COVID-19, looks very similar genetically to a coronavirus that infects bats, many researchers have concluded it's likely that it originated in bats and jumped species to humans. And that's because there's an unfortunate gene sequence on that coronavirus that allows this it to to cause inflammation and damage to the lungs quite quickly.

MG: Tai Poole, this is a question that you have that I think a lot of us are asking whether you're a grown up or whether you're a kid. Go ahead.

TAI POOLE: Yup, Matt. This question is from Cassia. She's 7-years-old and lives in Victoria, B.C.

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VOICE: How can a coronavirus live on certain surfaces and not others?

MG: That's an interesting question. How can it live on certain surfaces, but not others? Dr. Goldman?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: So Cassia, a recent study by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases found that, you know how long viruses can survive depends on the type of surface. For instance, COVID-19, can survive on plastic for up to three days, 72 hours. It can survive on stainless-steel surfaces for up to 48 hours. It can survive on cardboard for 24 hours. And on copper for four hours. So let's start looking at why, you know, more or less, depending on the surface, some surfaces are riskier than others because of various factors, one is the smoothness of the surface. Viruses survive longer on smooth surfaces like metal or plastic. The one exception is copper. Copper only for hours and that's because copper containing metals that are able to kill viruses more quickly. I didn't know that until I looked it up. Viruses generally don't survive as long on porous surfaces like paper or clothing. Another factor, of course, is how often the surface is touched. So doorknobs, faucets and phones are touched by a lot of people and can therefore infect a lot of people. And those are the ones you really have to pay attention to disinfecting. You know, indoor surfaces are riskier than outdoors because ultraviolet rays in the sunlight can help kill viruses.

MG: We've got a question from Martina, who's 8-years-old. And this kind of picks up a little bit on what you're saying. She's lucky. She says my friends have been sending me lots of cards in the mail. Can I catch the virus from touching the mail?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Yeah, we've rediscovered mail, haven't we? Snail mail.

MG: It's good to get a card in the mail.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: I love getting cards in the mail. Now, Martina, cards in the mail should be safe it because in general, it takes more than 24 hours for cards to get from your friends to you. So that means that the virus if there was virus on it, which is highly unlikely, it would have died by the time it reaches you. We don't have precise information on clothing, but experts believe you can find living virus on clothing for several hours to maybe up to a day. So less than some of those metal surfaces that I was talking about before.

MG: Don't touch your face.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Don't touch your face.

MG: Tai, next question for you. Go ahead.

TAI POOLE: This is Otis. He's 15 and from Toronto and he has a question about masks.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I'm a stock boy at No Frills. I've been home for two weeks because my brother and dad have been sick. And I'm going back to work this week. Should I wear a mask? I have heard mask don't help protect us, but I see images of frontline hospital workers wearing them. What is the best for us grocery employees to do?

MG: Dr. Goldman, you see a lot of people wearing masks these days. Tell us how useful they are.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, actually, depending on where you go, where you travel, you see in some countries I've been seeing people wearing masks for a long time out in public. Now, Otis, you gave some specific details. I don't have you on the line to to ask you some questions, to clarify some things, you know, by sick I'm going to assume your dad and your brother had a cold or some other virus and not COVID-19. The World Health organization says that if you're healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected COVID-19. So that means that you're in close contact with that person. So they could be coughing or you could be in contact with their secretions, you know, runny nose, et cetera. It's also recommended that you wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing and therefore at home in self-isolation. So if you live with other people and you could infect them, you should be wearing masks. Masks are also worn in hospital by patients with suspected COVID-19, and other respiratory infections are also warned by health professionals like me when we're taking care of patients to limit our exposure so we don't get sick. And so that we don't have to go into self isolation where we can't look after patients. So, you know, the WHO, World Health Organization says masks are effective only when used in combination with frequent hand-washing or an alcohol based hand rub or soap and water. So so the bottom line here is that is that if you would wear a mask to work, you're only trying to telegraph to others that you're thinking about COVID-19, but it's not going to be particularly effective.

MG: Excellent. And Otis, thanks for doing the work that you're doing, because you're making sure that people have the food in the stores and the other things to buy. Tai, this is a question that a lot of people have been thinking about. It's about social distancing. Who are we about to hear from?

TAI POOLE: This is Eliana. She's nine and from Toronto.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: My grandparents came over and waved to us from their car. Is it okay to hang out with them or could it spread the virus?

MG: It's a tricky question for kids trying to figure out how close and whether they can even get near their grandparents. Dr. Goldman?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Yeah, very, very tricky question, Eliana. And I'm sorry to say that at this point it's not OK to visit grandparents in person just now. Unless, of course, you want to to visit outside their house and wave to one another through a window. I know a lot of people are doing that. They're driving by and waving. Keep in mind that if you don't live with your grandparents, the journey to their place on foot by bike or in a car risks your chances of getting COVID-19 along the way. If your grandparents are age 60 and older, they're at greater risk of getting a severe form of coronavirus. Unfortunately, it also means not being able to visit loved ones in hospital or in Long-Term Care Facilities. What you can do is visit them virtually. So we've gotten away from calling this social distancing. It's not it never was that it's physical distancing. It's you know, you can stay in touch with them virtually by computer, by smart phones. You can use apps like House Party and Face Time. And what's app. And they're great for staying in touch and encourage you to do that. And, of course, use snail mail because people still a bit your grandparents loved to receive cards in the mail.

MG: We also got another question from someone who lives with her grandparents and is worried about visiting his dad and his dad's girlfriend on weekends. There are a lot of kids who are in this type of situation. Is there anything that they can do to reduce their risk?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Yeah, this is a tricky question. And it has both a public health and a social answer. You know, ordinarily, you know, physical distancing means kids stay stay with one parent. And that would be the rule. But, you know, I think I think in the modern world where where kids may be visiting multiple parents and staying with multiple parents, you know, I think public health authorities would make an exception in this case, provided you are taken back and forth directly from one parent's house to the other. So no drop offs at neutral sites like stores and shopping malls because you're just increasing your risk of picking up COVID-19 along the way. That, of course, assumes that everybody is well, if anybody in the house develops symptoms, including children, that person must self isolate, as should other members of the household, which would basically end the moving back and forth from one parent to another. So, you know, if you're co-parent has has symptoms of coronavirus, you should not send your child to their house. So that's advice for the grown ups. Equally, if a vulnerable person like a grandparent lives in a household, their welfare should be taken into consideration before deciding whether a child should visit. So I hope that answers your question. It may not be, you know. You're going to be very. And, of course, scrupulous hand-washing. Lots and lots of hand washing and cleaning off of surfaces because you don't want to increase the likelihood of spreading the virus in that way.

MG: Ryan is 7-years-old. And Ryan wanted to know whether animals can get COVID-19?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Yeah. As far as we know, Ryan, you know, there's currently no evidence that domestic animals like pets can become sick with COVID-19 or can spread the virus to other people.

MG: That's good to know. Another question from Owen, who's 10 years old, wrote us on Facebook. How important is it to continue getting outside to play if I'm staying a safe distance from others?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: You know, as somebody who runs and and I know Matt is a runner as well. You know, I think it's important and safe to play outside, provided you stay at least two meters or six feet from other people. You know, the air outside circulates much more quickly and completely than the air indoors. You know, in that way, from the standpoint of Koven 19, the air outside is healthier than the indoor air. What increases the risk outdoors is getting too close to a much larger group of people. So you have to physically distance yourself from others. But I would not. And it's good for your. It's good to get the sun. It's also good to get some exercise. It's good for your well-being. I would not tell people to not exercise.

MG: I'm going to trying to squeeze a couple more questions. This one comes from Ibrahim in Quebec. How fast could the coronavirus mutate?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: We think that the coronavirus, you know, it's there are two circulating coronaviruses right now that we're aware of. And you know, that suggests that it can mutate on the order of, you know, maybe once every three or four months. And and so I think that's that that's how fast right now. And and and that's the rationale. That's the reason for suggesting that that people would get at least partial protection from from coronavirus, from the second coronavirus. And your immunity would last at least three to four months. But, you know, of course, it's a sneaky virus. It could change and it could change its properties in the months ahead.

MG: These are smart questions.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: They really are yes.

MG: OK. We have one more. And this is the number one question that we heard from kids. Tai, why don't you set this question up for us?

TAI POOLE: This is from Owen, who's 6-years-old from Winnipeg. And this is a question all of us kids want to know, including me.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I'm in kindergarten. I just want to know when would I go back to school?

MG: Owen's in kindergarten. When is going to be able to go back to school, Brian?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Oh Owen, everybody wants to know when life will get back to normal. You'll know we're on the right track. When public health people start saying we're past the peak of COVID-19. So watch the numbers we need. We need much more testing, particularly in some provinces, more than others. When that happens, you know, when we say that when the public health officials say we're past the peak, the number of new cases will start going down. That's unlikely to happen in the next two to three weeks. And I think all of us need to prepare for the strong possibility that school won't start again until June or even the summer, and possibly not until the fall. Until then, you know, wash your hands, practise the physical distancing. You know, I'm hoping that schools get a lot better at developing online learning modules and find a way of doing that better than they have so far. But they're all scrambling just as we all are. I think we have to remember that we're all in this together.

MG: School in the summer?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: School in the summer.

MG: Might be possible.

TAI POOLE: Nooo.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Tai doesn't like that.

MG: Tai, what are you looking forward to doing when all of this is over?

TAI POOLE: Let me first say that all of these questions were amazing, but when this all blows over and we can go and see people again, I'm just really excited to go with my friends and just get a poutine.

MG: Poutine? That's gonna be the first thing you're going to go out and eat with your friends when this is done?

TAI POOLE: It's been so long Matt. We used to have a weekly tradition. So it's sad.

MG: The cheese curds and the gravy will wait for you. Dr. Goldman, you're in the middle of this and you're working in a hospital and you're busy. What are you looking forward to when this is all over?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, you know, certainly I look forward to the hospital coming back to more normal operations. And but I also have another life and I would say that I'm very interested in a return to one of our favourite pastimes, and that's Blue Jays baseball. I'm also, I'd be very happy when the Raptors and Leafs get back. But of course, there are people who are listening to us saying the Leafs? Are you kidding?

MG: Some people may not want that team back. These are great questions. And maybe, I'm going to ask for more because maybe we'll have the opportunity to answer some more of them. In the meantime, thank you, doctor.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: You're welcome.

MG: And Tai, take care yourself.

TAI POOLE: Ooh.

MG: Tai Poole hosts the podcast, Tai Asks Why, a CBC podcast, you can get wherever you find your podcasts. Dr. Brian Goldman is an emergency room physician. He also hosts White Coat, Black Art on CBC Radio and the CBC podcast, The Dose. If you're a young person who's listening, this is can be scary and you may have more questions. Send us the questions that you have and we'll try and get them answered. You can reach us through the website. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact link. And if this is scary and you want to talk with someone now, the Kids Help Phone has counsellors that you can call. You can ask them anything. You can talk to them how you're feeling. You can do that at anytime. In the middle of the day, in the middle of the night, they're always there. And the number is 1-800-668-6868. Again, that number is 1-800-668-6868. Coming up in about 90 seconds on The Current, we're going to check in on your neighbours. And by that I mean very distant provincial neighbours. Find out how different regions in this country are handling this pandemic and what we can learn from when it comes to how we're all in this together. There's a lot that can be shared. My name is Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us. We'll be back in a minute.

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Major COVID-19 stories across Canada this week

Guests: Anthony Germain, Debra Arbec, Rob Brown

MG: I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. And at this point, the COVID-19 outbreak has touched almost every corner of this country in some way. I'm joined now by three CBC journalists from all over this country to talk about some of the biggest stories in their regions. Anthony Germain is the host and anchor of Here and Now. It's the 6 o'clock newscast out of St. John's, Newfoundland. Debra Arbec is the anchor of the CBC Montreal News at 6. Rob Brown is anchor of the CBC Calgary News at 6. Good morning to you all.

DEBRA ARBEC: Good morning.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Hi Matt.

ROB BROWN: Good morning Matt.

MG: Anthony, we'll start with you. Tell me about what's happening in Newfoundland and Labrador and in St. John's right now.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Well, we've had a lot of developments over the last 24 hours, Matt, including some in just in the last hour or two. I think a lot of people here, specifically on the island, were hoping that we would avoid this without any deaths. But unfortunately, I've just received word of the first death linked to COVID-19 this morning. It certainly caught on social media. A lot of people thinking that maybe we might be able to dodge this, but it was becoming pretty obvious over the last 24 hours and more indications that people were starting to be hospitalized. We had our first patients put into intensive care yesterday. So a lot of people in Newfoundland, Labrador, are waking up to our first death this morning.

MG: Debra, tell us about Montreal and the mood in Montreal right now.

DEBRA ARBEC: Yeah, it's tough. There's no doubt about it. You've probably heard Quebec has the highest number of cases of any province. And we did have the highest number of deaths until yesterday. But we did hear some encouraging news from the government yesterday. We've seen an acceleration of cases being lower in Quebec than what they planned for. So cases are increasing, yes, and they did increase exponentially last week. We're at 2840 cases, but what the government is saying at this point is that number is actually below expectations. So we're we've been on a downward trend for the last week or so. So this morning, despite, you know, still seeing cases rising, a little bit of a sense of of encouragement.

MG: What about in Calgary, Rob? What's the mood in your city right now?

ROB BROWN: It's pretty bleak for a lot of reasons. The COVID-19 pandemic chief among them, of course, but also what's going on with energy prices, oil prices, Matt. In terms of where we're at in the response, 661 cases, 3 deaths. It's now in several seniors homes, which as we've seen in other provinces, notably B.C., is big cause of concern. But it appears we're shifting to phase two. So preparing for those waves of people to descend on our hospitals and our care facilities. I'll throw the province. So testing protocols have changed recently. The premier like to point out earlier this week that we've tested more people per capita in Alberta than any jurisdiction in North America, force in the world. So they have a good sense. They think of the numbers out there. And now they're focussing in on frontline health care workers, on on folks who have who have or are mino compromised and underlying health conditions so that they can really zero in on the people who are going to need the help in the days and weeks to come as those waves dissent.

MG: As you said, the province has taken a battering and in a couple of different ways. And one of them is obviously the health crisis that the entire country's in, but the economic crisis as well has compounded the situation. What is the province doing to deal with it?

ROB BROWN: Oh boy. Yeah, the timing is just absolutely terrible, the demand side is just crashed worldwide for oil, of course. No one is driving, no one is flying. And then you have the supply side price war going on between Saudi Arabia and Russia, which has flooded the markets to the point where they're running out of places to put oil in terms of what the provinces are doing about it. We're seeing help, dribs and drabs of aid packages targeted first and foremost with people who are being affected by the pandemic. But what Jason Kenney, Premier Jason Kenney is focussed on more than anything at this point is what Ottawa can do to help. So it appears that Ottawa and the provincial government and the industry are working in lockstep at this point in terms of getting some sort of aid package delivered to the energy sector. It's not coming as quickly as many had hoped. It may be announced as soon as today, we're told. But what they need, those big companies that have decent balance sheets right now, they're said to be in okay situations, even with a curtailment, even with the shutting down of production. But a lot of companies are on the brink. They could be going under and of course, mass layoffs. So what they need is a liquidity and Jason Kenney among many in the patch looking to Ottawa for help with financing. And Bill Morneau has suggested that companies will be able to service debt. Will be able to make payroll. But yeah, everyone holding their breath because of what it could mean on the other side of this thing Matt, I think you can't overstate it enough. I think across the country, people are they're holding their breath and waiting to get through this because they think, all right, we get through it, we get back to life as normal on the other side. But given where things are going with energy prices right now, a lot of Albertans are wondering if life will ever be the same after this is over.

MG: Well, and just the last point on that, it is there the sense that there could be and again, people are trying to figure out what's happening in real time, but is there the sense that coming out of this that you could have economic diversification beyond oil, that that might be part of the recovery effort?

ROB BROWN: Well, it may be forced for sure. And that's such a long term conversation. It is a conversation that's been going on Matt since the last downturn. Over the last five years, there have been attempts to diversify. There's an awareness about that. But honestly, it's not in the water yet. People are just trying to get through today and trying to save the furniture as it was, because, you know, this is the biggest employer in the province and you can't flick it, switch and diversify overnight. People are are aware that there needs to be down there effort under way, but yeah it may force it in a way that we haven't seen to date.

MG: Anthony, I could hear you in the background. Go ahead.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Yeah and certainly you know, people have talked about diversification. We know where the offshore oil is so important newfoundland, Labrador, unlike Alberta, though, heading into this. I know Alberta is suffering, but the Newfoundland Labrador situation with this was, you know, a horrible economy to begin with, the highest rate of unemployment. The oldest population in the country, massive debt. And last week, we borrowed another $2 billion with the help of the federal government to get through this. But to Rob's point, for those provinces that depend on these oil royalties, I'm looking at Brent this morning, it's not less than $30, less than $25 a barrel for a government that predicted and made all of its spending on oil to be at least $65 a barrel. I mean, it's really, really hard. If you'd asked Newfoundlanders Labradorians, two weeks ago or three weeks ag, what's the biggest story? It would've been a blizzard. That horrible blizzard that people had to deal with. We thought that was bad for business and now this. So our politicians have almost they're almost working like a coalition government now. I mean, they're talking about when this is over, whenever that is. They're citing June, July as a possibility of things getting somewhat back to normal. But they're talking about seeing conditions that we have not seen since the 1930s. So the whole economic side of this thing is, you know, it's terrifying for a lot of people in this province.

MG: Debra, Anthony mentioned politicians. Tell us a little bit about the Quebec premier and how he has responded to this. It's been a really interesting story.

DEBRA ARBEC: It really is. Francois Legault has definitely been a popular premier in Quebec and his support has always stood around 60 percent in the province. But he he was really catering to a particular part of the province. And it was not necessarily province wide. So the Anglophone community in in Quebec, not really much of a supporter of Francois Legault. And he brought in some rather controversial programs recently that weren't necessarily very popular with that part of the community, nor with immigrants. But the premier has definitely stood up for all Quebecers throughout this entire pandemic. And and it's been remarkable to see, actually, because his his popularity has soared in opinion polls to between 85 and 94 percent. That is absolutely unheard of here. Now what is happening here? Well, the premier comes out daily and does his his his briefing to the province. He's always punctual. One o'clock, he comes out. He he's he's very caring. He's empathetic. He knows what he's talking about. He's concise. He's unscripted. He hands off to his equally popular public health director, Horacio Ruda. When he doesn't know the answers and he's really been trying to rally the entire province, he he uses wartime language to rally, saying that we're we're all in this together. We're like an army in the fight of our lives. So he's really appealing to Quebecers coming together and and getting through this together. And it appears to be working. You know, not everyone saying that they'll so they'll necessarily support him in the next election. But they do feel that he has really stood up and is a leader that this province needs right now.

MG: Rob, what's happening in Alberta, particularly when it comes to the relations between the province's doctors and the provincial government? This has been a tense relationship, if I can put it that way, before this pandemic began. What's the backstory and how is that playing out now?

ROB BROWN: Yeah. Tense is a word that we're getting used to when it comes to that relationship. So the backstory is that on the eve of this pandemic, the government was preparing to pass, you know, a belt tightening budget. And as part of the u.s.'s fiscal restraint going forward, they've been eyeing every line in the budget. They settled on doctors and said, you know what? As far as we could tell, doctors are the highest paid in the country. We're going to make some amendments on that front. We're going to not allow them to bill in ways that they have in the past. And then COVID-19 blows up. So it was acrimonious to begin with because understandably, doctors were in shock at that change. They were decrying it. They were saying from the get go and continue to say that it's going to change the way they can deliver health care because they're now capped at a certain amount of time they can spend with the patients. A family physician, prior to going over that amount of time, they would get extra compensation. That looks like it will no longer be the case. All of this set to kick in in a matter of days. So the doctors and the health minister in particular, but this government were at odds and then the pandemic sets in. Everything is heightened and it's to the point where the health minister, who's been laying pretty low throughout all of this, but is clearly under stress and you would understand that he's been a target and his spouse has been the target of various memes on social media. One of them sent out by a doctor in the health ministers neighbourhood, a person that the health minister knew for a really convoluted reason. I don't have time to get into here. He ended up basically on this doctor's doorstep and berating the doctor in front of his family. So CBC broke the story the other day and let the opposition leader, Rachel Notley, that this health minister is not fit to stand in office during a pandemic clearly.

MG: I was going to say all of this happening in the midst of a health crisis.

ROB BROWN: Oh, it's unbelievable. So the premier was asked out. He stood by his health ministry and told him to stand down from social media. In the meantime, though, the doctors are ramping up their concern and making this very much a political issue in the middle of the pandemic as well.

MG: One of the stories, Anthony, that people were talking about this weekend, I think it was right across the country, was the story of the number of cases in Newfoundland that can be traced back to a funeral homes in St. John's? What is this story?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Well, I'll get to that. I just want to make one point about when we compare provinces and their case numbers Matt, because it's a strange world we live in, because each province, as Rob is mentioning, Alberta's best record there with testing, which is true. And Quebec has upped its testing as well. It's very difficult to make comparisons, but people look at Newfoundland saying if you take a look at population half a million plus our cases, we actually ranked second to Quebec when you look at have cases per hundred thousand. People take it much more serious. But to your question, we have 133 cases, but what's weird is that 99 of those cases are traced to a single funeral home. This is a place called Calls, has been doing business in St. John since about 1890. And what happened was there was a funeral for somebody who died, not related to COVID-19. There was a traveller from outside Canada who came. This person was positive, did not know it at the time. And so you had a wake, you know, three days, people coming to pay their respects. And you know what happens at these events? People are kissing. People are crying. People are hugging. And so this every single briefing we get, they're talking about the Calls cluster, which is this funeral home, because ever since day one of this, that number has just grown and grown and grown. So that here we have most of our cases, of the 133, almost 100 directly traced to one person's death before this actually hit.

MG: We have seen conversations across the country about the importance of physical distancing and the importance of people actually taking it seriously. Is that happening in your town Anthony?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Well, it's it's an excellent question, because this is a strange, different kind of part of the country. And I mean, I'm from Quebec, so I know Debra will know that Quebecers and Newfoundlanders, not sort of isolate Albertans and all this, but Sunday dinners getting together in the shed. The shed is like an institution here. People known to have a few drinks, not necessarily diet sodas either. It's they're really trying to get people list. Listen, just because you think you're OK does not mean you should be socializing the way you've been socializing, the way your dad did, the way your parents did. So they're really trying to crack through here at least to try to get the message, saying, hey, look, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. This is not the same. Stay home with a couple of people if you're already there, but do not socialize. And it's very difficult, this culture, to convince people to just sort of stay home, don't do anything.

MG: Debra how's that playing out in Montreal? It's been a long winter and spring is on our doorstep and people want to get outside.

DEBRA ARBEC: And at this time of year, people, as you say, are hankering to get outside, to sit on their balconies, to sit on the Tauruses, the famous Tauruses here in Quebec. But Montreal is currently in a local state of emergency and people are still getting together. We have a case that just broke last night just north of Montreal in a community called barbree. And there's a Hasidic a rather large Hasidic community of 4000 people there now asking the government to tuke. Closed down their community because about 150 people over a Purim March 9th and 10th headed down to New York City, we know that's a hot spot. They came back and now 20 members have tested positive for Cauvin 19. So that's how it happens, right? It it one community or one large group gets together. We've seen weddings also in a certain sector of Montreal over the weekend, a half ago. And now we're seeing that sector of Montreal, the number of cases proliferating. So as Anthony mentioned, you know, you get together, you hug, you kiss, you share food, you share plates, utensils, you're spreading the virus. So that's definitely become an issue here in the Montreal area with the state of emergency. We saw a cluster of cases in a few communities. Now it's spread and it's spreading right across the island to the point where we don't know whether in the next few days the government might decide that we have to lock down the entire island and start closing bridges.

MG: You think of not just what's happening now, but people start to project in the future as well. Days, weeks, months ahead. And Rob we'll end on this. You think of anchor events across the country and in Calgary, that would be the Stampede. What are people thinking when it comes to you? That's a huge gathering. And it means so much to people in the province and in that city. What are people thinking when it comes to the stampede?

ROB BROWN: It does mean so much. It's interesting you say that, Matt. You know, I got my final haircut the other day before all the salons closed.

MG: You're not going to cut your hair at home? That's not going to be happening?

ROB BROWN: We're going to see how that goes. I think there are gonna be a lot of interesting before and after moments in a couple of months. Yeah, they were closing up shop. And I was just talking about where life's going to be like in the coming months for them because, you know, small business owners getting by and, you know, they're going to weather it and so many are. And as I'm walking out the door, one of the owners said, you know what, I hope they don't do is I hope they don't cancel the Stampede because it'd be like cancelling Christmas. It's that wanting to have something that is normal in your life to look forward to and of course, you don't want to be a prisoner of the moment, but we're currently in a state here where gatherings of 15 or more are banned. And you cannot foresee, I think at this point that it's seen as July that that would be lifted and tens of thousands of people would be able to gather. And not just on the fairgrounds near, but in the community, at the pancake breakfast that is so famous for Stampede. Of course, the Stampede has faced adversity before. 2013, the floods, it's weeks before, it was under floodwater. And the slogan out that year was come hell or high water and go ahead. It's never missed. A Stampede has never been missed in all of the years since the 1920s. It's been going consecutively. But this may be the year 80 percent of staff have already been laid off. The cowboys who have to start training for the chuckwagon races, they're saying we've got to start training now and it looks unlikely, but who knows where this thing is going?

MG: We'll check back in with all of you I think in the weeks ahead, because this story will continue to change right across this country. In the meantime, stay healthy and stay well. Thank you.

DEBRA ARBEC: Thank you, Matt.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Anthony Germain, the anchor of Here and Now, it's the 6 o'clock newscast at a St. John's, Newfoundland. Debra Arbec is the anchor of the CBC Montreal News at 6. And Rob Brown is the anchor of the CBC Calgary News at 6.

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MG: This is an extended edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. Mr. Tom Power, host of Q is with us. Good morning, sir.

TOM POWER: Hello, Matt. How are you holding up? How was your weekend? Did you get a weekend?

MG: I did get a weekend and tried not to pay attention to things and then real life starts to intrude. And it did last night. Coming from the music world.

TOM POWER: So sad. I mean, just heartbreaking. Some news out of the country music world. The death of the great country singer Joe Diffie, icon of neo traditionalist country. 35 Billboard hits, 5 number ones. On Friday he was being called the first country singer to publicly announce that he had the virus, that he had the coronavirus. He died in Nashville on Sunday at 61. So the country music community around the world was grieving. And then more news struck that John Prine, one of the greatest singer songwriters.

MG: Of all time.

TOM POWER: Of all time. An icon for a certain sort of funny rebel DIY style of country music is in critical condition after experiencing symptoms of coronavirus. We're all thinking about John and Fiona and his family today.

MG: We'll move from that to maybe a bit of better news.

TOM POWER: Well, you know, I've been trying to focus on the good news around this thing. I was listening to David Common on your old show on the Metro Morning Show on Friday. And there was a lot of he was trying to focus on the good news and it brought to mind of the fashion industry. Don't wear a lot of Gucci, Matt. I don't know if you could tell from the jean jacket.

MG: Really?

TOM POWER: Don't wear a lot of Gucci.

MG: Wasn't aware.

TOM POWER: Don't wear a lot of Louis Vuitton here. We didn't have that outlet out in Newfoundland. But I was talking to our Q fashion contributor, Mosha Lundstrom Halbert, about the way that these big time fashion brands are trying to help out at this time.

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TOM POWER: Hi, Mosha.

MOSHA LUNDSTROM HALBERT: Hi, Tom.

TOM POWER: You safe in California?

MOSHA LUNDSTROM HALBERT: I'm safe. Thankfully, we're on lockdown here, so we're socially distancing, but there's still a lot of news happening. And it's a very important time for the fashion industry.

TOM POWER: So let's talk about fashion designers and brands have been stepping up with offers to make hospital gear during COVID-19. Can you tell me more about that?

MOSHA LUNDSTROM HALBERT: Yeah, it's been really remarkable, frankly, to see brands big and small getting involved here and really converting their efforts from their own brands to making hospital gowns and masks. Of course, in the US, which we've just seen recently, it's currently there's a high number of cases anywhere in the world here. So brands here are chipping in in a big way and converting their infrastructures, such as Ralph Lauren, as you mentioned, who's not only making hospital garb, but also has made a donation of ten million dollars. The gap is also making medical essentials. I think it's quite interesting, too, that on one smaller brand front, brands like Christian Siriano and Brandon Maxwell, who are known for making red carpet gowns, are now making hospital gowns. And these brands are really following the lead of French and Italian companies such as LVMH. there's the owner of Louis Vuitton, Givency, Dior, Celine, they converted all of their factories, cosmetic factories in Europe to producing hand sanitizer and soap the other week. Prada is also making hospital scrubs. Louis Vuitton factorie, apparel factories are making hospital garb now. And, you know, these brands have huge resources, so they're really doing the right thing by trying to help with this effort.

TOM POWER: You mentioned brands there. And typically these are headquartered in countries like Italy or the U.S. or Spain. They've been hit hard by COVID-19. Canada is not immune. And I want to talk about Canada's response in just a second. But first, how is the fashion industry going to look when all this is over?

MOSHA LUNDSTROM HALBERT: I think everyone is taking a massive hit. I don't think there's any fashion brand that's going to come out of this better in a way financially. But I do think it's really making everyone re-evaluate their values. We're basically skipping an entire fashion season, tom, if you think about it, cause all of this spring merchandise had just shipped to stores just as this outbreak was really kicking into high gear. So if there's anything you can do right now with, you know, if you think of all the people in the fashion industry that have lost their jobs or you can go online and support these retailers and smaller brands that you believe in during this unprecedented time. But I will say I think it's helpful to look at history as a whole in times like this. And I think a lot of times creativity and ingenuity can come out of the toughest circumstances. So I think a perfect example would be how Burberry and company created the trench coat during World War One. So I remain hopeful that these brands will be OK and creativity will rise.

TOM POWER: Let's talk more about Canada. So the outerwear brand, Canada Goose has announced they'll be lending a helping hand. Can you tell me more about that?

MOSHA LUNDSTROM HALBERT: Yes. So Canada Goose, everyone knows them. They had eight factories in Canada. Many abroad, but of their eight factories so far, they've converted two in Canada to producing medical essentials, which is very commendable. You know, they're such a big brand. They make over $800million dollars a year, so it's so heartening to see them converting these resources to help Canadians in need right now.

TOM POWER: I have to say, I thought the next time we'd be talking would be kind of early May. I mean, listen, Mosha, I've never had to talk to you.

MOSHA LUNDSTROM HALBERT: You neither, Tom, but this is this is a downer. I'm not going to lie.

TOM POWER: That's a bummer for sure. I mean, you and you usually come on to talk about the Met gala. The Oscars of fashion. Raises money for the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, but it's bigger than that. It's essentially the biggest night in fashion, especially in the Western world. So the Met Museum closed this year's gala indefinitely postponed. And I've heard that some of the organizers have turned their focus to something else, right?

MOSHA LUNDSTROM HALBERT: Yes. So the Oscars of fashion is not happening right now, but Anna Wintour, along with the American fashion designer, Tom Ford, who is the president of the Council of Fashion Designers of America, have relaunched a fashion fund called the Common Thread, which they initially had created in 2003 to help with emerging designers who were impacted during 9/11. I think now, more than ever, these designers are really facing such difficult times. And, you know, I'm told that the Canadian Apparel Federation is also working on something similar on an individual level to back to Italy. I was so impressed. Tom, there is this Instagram star. I love saying her name. She has like 19 million followers and she galvanized them to raise over 4.3 million euros to go towards a hospital in Milan. So it really is amazing to see what people are doing at these times.

TOM POWER: You know, with everything happening right now in fashion, all this uncertainty about the future. We're seeing a lot of tweets and a lot of articles of people saying don't wear pyjamas all day where you're going to get dressed for work. I'm interested for someone who I, one of my favourite Instagram fashion presences, Mosha Lundstrom, Halbert, what are you doing to keep fashion alive during this pandemic?

MOSHA LUNDSTROM HALBERT: Tom, we must dress for the world we want to live in, not our current reality. You know, even you and I, when we're even if you're going on the radio or you're just going on phone calls, you must dress in a way that is uplifting. And I I'm a firm believer that fashion is such a great impact on our mental health. And just that routine of getting up each day and putting on something that is kind of like your armour or that sparks joy right now. My mum has even started in Canada doing a thing where she wears a different colour of the rainbow every day. She thinks that this is a way to combat the spirit of corona because you're wearing different clothes. The science is still out on that, but it definitely brings me a lot of happiness seeing her dressed in all these different colours. And I would encourage everyone to, you know, dress with gusto, pull something from the back here, cause you haven't worn in ages that might be impractical or ridiculous and wear it now because why not? Don't delay joy.

TOM POWER: Mosha Lundstrom Halbert, stay safe down there, hey.

MOSHA LUNDSTROM HALBERT: Thank you, Tom. You too. I always love speaking with you. So thanks for letting me share this story.

MG: Thanks for that, Tom. That's the CBC's Tom Power speaking with Mosha Lundstrom Halbert, regular fashion contributor to Q. Tom will be back a little bit later on with another story for us from the world of arts and entertainment and things that can divert us perhaps from the news of the day. The CBC News is next. And then spring is in the air in some parts of this country. Victory Gardens were a morale booster during the Second World War. We'll speak with a gardener who thinks we need them now more than ever. We're thinking of planting some inspiration for you. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in about six minutes. Stay with us.

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With more people staying at home, COVID-19 recession is first in history that’s service-driven – and women will be hit hardest, economists say

Guests: Armine Yalnizyan, Frances Donald

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, the case for Victory Gardens. They were meant to empower people during the Second World War. Now a gardener in Toronto thinks it's time to bring them back. We'll hear more on that coming up. But first, how COVID-19 is shaping our economy?

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MG: Well, you don't need me to tell you that the effects of this pandemic are profound. You may be out of a job right now. Maybe you were forced to shut down your business. Maybe you can't make rent or you have to delay a search for a house. Maybe you're getting anxious about the R-word: recession. COVID-19, is rippling through the Canadian economy in ways that can feel overwhelming. So to help make sense of it all, we've asked a couple of economists to join us today. Armine Yalnizyan is the Atkinson Fellow on the Future of Workers. She's in Ottawa. Frances Donald is Global Chief Economist at Manulife Investment Management and she is in Toronto. Good morning to you both.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Good morning, Matt.

FRANCES DONALD: Good morning.

MG: Armine, let's start with you. If you had a headline that you could deploy to describe what COVID-19, is doing to the economy, what would it say?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Basically turning up the normal operating procedures for the economy on its head. So after 40 years of trickle down economics, we are recognizing that we have to do a bottom up approach to protect people and the economy from collapsing and that is what virtually every government is doing.

MG: I want to get to the details in terms of how that's playing out here in Canada in a moment. Frances Donald, for you, what would your headline be?

FRANCES DONALD: I would say we're in for hopefully short term pain, but that forever changes the global economy and not just the way we think about economics, the way our media are alluding to, but how we treat the underlying problem. We're looking at a game changer in terms of the way we operate, interact with each other and think about the whole profession.

MG: What is different Armine and I'll ask Frances the same question, but what's different this time around? We've been through recessions before. The economy has faced a seismic existential challenges in past. What's different now?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, two major things. The first thing is that we are experiencing globally the first ever service driven recession that makes it a domestic economy situation where usually in a recession, governments are trying to stimulate demand. People are you know, our governments are telling us to stay at home. We're actually actively suppressing demand right now by reducing ourselves to the most essential economy that we can come up with and putting a pause on everything else that we've never experienced anything like that. And second part of it is this idea that most recessions are driven by men making stuff and this one is a she-cession and it will also be a she-covery because women are going to be very central to both the type of jobs that are being cut back in and retail and hospitality and all sorts of things that are deemed non-essential. But also the front lines of essential services in health care, child care, elder care, cleaning, retail clerks, women who have never been more important both in their paid and unpaid functions. And a lot of these women that we're talking about, were already precarious workers in low wage jobs. So the whole idea of what is valuable is shifting.

MG: A she-cession?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Yeah.

MG: If you take a look at those workers and I want to bring Frances in a moment, but if you take a look at those women in particular who are workers on that frontlines, as you say, of the economic carnage, what's the fallout going to be for them?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: We don't know. It depends on how long this goes on, but it's also women are the ones that are on the front lines of the fix. So on both sides, on both the carnage as well as the pick up the pieces side, women are for the first time leading economic responses through public policies and through market actions. So it's going to be a fascinating period where we suddenly recognise our essential equality, not just through gender, but through classes and the way workers have been valued.

MG: How many jobs, Canadian jobs do you think could be at stake in all of this, Armine?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, there's 19 million workers and those who are working on the front lines, like in the sectors that are hit hardest and retail, education, hospitality, etc. they make the labour force currently is roughly 6 million people. Add to that 2 million people who are working temporarily. A third of all young workers are working temporarily and two million people who are self-employed with nobody that they don't hire anybody as well. So we're talking about millions of people that are extremely exposed.

MG: Frances Donald, you said that this was a game changer. Tell me more about why you believe that this is different than anything else we've been through.

FRANCES DONALD: Well, like usual, I agree with Armine. I would add two additional big picture factors, which is that this is the second incident that calls into question the idea of globalisation and global supply chains. The entire profession of economics is based off the concept of free trade and open trade between many countries. Now we've had both trade wars and shutting borders between companies because of the virus. So if you're opening a new company right now, you're thinking twice about whether you want to engage with trade abroad. You may want to pay extra for domestic labour because it doesn't come with these additional complications. It's insurance. So the globalisation trend that was seeded last year is probably going to accelerate. Secondly, we've talked a lot in the last couple of years about the possibility of a fourth industrial revolution. That being technology and the productivity gains from it. But what we're witnessing now in real time is entire new infrastructure is setup with companies now moving to work from home. Infrastructure developed for telecoms that I think is also going to act as an accelerant for this technological development. What we're going to see so the way that we do business is likely going to change even if we came out of quarantine's, which we won't. I suspect that the psychological impact for the way that not just small companies, but global companies operate is also going to change. That's going to have to change the way we think about investment in this country as well.

MG: Can you unscramble the cliché? Can you unscramble that omelette? I mean, we are already interconnected. So much of what we get, I think of the things that are in front of me have come from far away. If the walls, if they're not going to go back up, but people are going to perhaps rethink how interconnected they are, is that possible in the economy that we have right now?

FRANCES DONALD: Let's think about it this way. How many apps did you download on your phones to communicate with work or communicate with home that you've never used before? How many grocery delivery services did you engage with that you've never used before? How many things to order from Amazon that you've never done before? You know, these are the infrastructures that we've all been forced to adapt really quickly. And while we might back up on some of them, I don't think we're going to back up on all of them. So there will be a way to quantify. We can see, for example, the changes in the amount of fitness equipment that people have bought for home, the amount of do it yourself tools that have been purchased for home. So there is a way to calculate this change in behaviour. But the first step is to recognize that there is a change of behaviour and that is likely to be lasting.

MG: The other part of that, Armine, you're looking at the future of workers is a lot of people working from home. You wonder whether companies will say, oh, you can do that from home. You don't need to be in the office. And whether that will change how we think about work.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, to Frances's point about the relocalization that is taking place, both because of public policies that were taken like the geopolitics of the moment that was happening before COVID and now what COVID does. But in addition to that, the technology that promises to be localized, we've been hearing in the news things like 3D printing and much more DIY solutions to problems working at home. I just I do want to emphasize that some there's another factor at play here that isn't just technological on the future workers, but the future of workers is likely to be much more government labour going forward. And that's not just because it's covered, that's because of population aging. So there's going to be less demand for, you know, mass produced goods and basically by shopping when 25 percent of your population is over the age of 25. I mean, sorry, 65. And we know that older people shoplift and have less expenditures. We know that the slowing growth that we were experiencing is going to continue to accelerate even well-beyond recovery from this. So, you know, again, for the last 40 years, the rule of. Was the best way to grow an economy is through less government and more market. We are going to need more market sorry, more government, and we are also going to need more non-profit services. So while the investment, a notion that Frances just raised is really important. We're going to be having to invest in way more non-profit activities. We are looking at a major revolution in what we how we see what the economy is, therefore, what is its purpose and do. Is it there to serve people or people there to serve it?

MG: Let me talk about some government intervention that came on Friday. If you're running a small or medium sized business you're panicking because to Armine's point that your business may have just evaporated. The government promising upwards of a 75 percent wage subsidy and a guaranteed interest free loan program as well. Frances, what do you make of that? Is that going to help?

FRANCES DONALD: Well, thank goodness we have it. It's a little bit late because we've already seen some significant layoffs. But when I think about government money, particularly when I'm thinking about it in a pure econ101 sense of how long are we in a recession, how deep is the recession? When do we get out? The type of government money that we'd seen globally was really focussed on helping workers who had been laid off. But if you really want to prevent the worst of the recession, you have to prevent those layoffs from happening in the first place. An employee not laid off means that employees don't have to worry about rehiring. And the idea that companies were going to be just 10 percent short of wages was really optimistic. They probably weren't going to be closer to the 75 marker. So this to me is trying to stem the problem before it becomes much worse over time. I still think that we're going to continue to see companies who aren't capable that there's a lag between these policies, that there are implementation challenges that have to be addressed. But this wasn't an excellent first step from my perspective. Hopefully we continue to see more. You know, as AMI mentioned, we are deliberately shutting down our economy. And that gives us a new perspective to talk about policies that even a month ago were considered taboo, things like universal, basic income, modern monetary theory, even the most, you know, kind of alternative type of economists were saying, well, I don't want to be too optimistic on these. It's still a little bit of a challenge discussion. But now even your conservative call it right wing economists and policymakers are saying these are the right policies. So this call, the 19, is acting as an accelerant on so many of the economic scenes that we're developing in the last couple of years. It's taking them and putting them on a fast track to becoming mainstream thinking. That's a really, really significant development. And it changes the way that we not just think about policy, but the way we implement it.

MG: Armine, tell us from your perspective and again, it's impossible to know when this is going to end and when we will see light at the end of the tunnel. But when we get there, what will we have learned? When it comes to that adaptability, but also, what Frances is talking about were some things that perhaps were off the table might now be back on the table.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Without question, I think Frances is right that we're not just looking at a health crisis and an economic crisis, but a crisis of our ideologies, where what was passing for orthodoxy was already being pointed out is not not serving the greater good. And and yet we didn't have anything to replace it. So what was is dying, but what was to be born had not yet been born. And this is almost like a premature baby that is thriving, but a baby that was going to arrive one way or another. And we're just hoping it doesn't arrive with too many problems, because this is going to be what we're going to have to develop in the early 21st century. You know, we've been talking about a lot of the issues on the inability of income support and the way we value workers for the last 30 years. Because about 30 years ago, we started stripping back income support for working age populations. And we've been having that conversation ever since. That should a big thing come along. Too many people were exposed. We were going to destroy the economy, just not just the front lines of the people caught in it. And it's a miracle that in about two weeks we have seen a federal government that has actually crafted an architecture of social supports for the early 21st century in days after 30 years of talking about it.

MG: And do you think those, do you think they'll stick around?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: I think elements of it will and they will provide the scaffolding for what it is we erect next to what we decide we need to tear this part down and do something else. But it has opened up sightlines on what needs to be done as part of an essential economy, which is to protect the most vulnerable.

MG: Frances, you started by saying that this you are hoping that this would be short term pain. It would lead you to believe that this would be short term.

FRANCES DONALD: Well, what's so challenging about being an economist right now is that we're asked to make economic forecasts based on essentially public health outcomes, which we have, of course, very little experience with. So there is some elements of this story that economists are well suited to, things like how will central bank policy make sure there's not enough liquidity in the market? How will oil prices change investment? Those components were capable of forecasting. What I can't tell you because it's simply not my profession is when are we going to see a peaking case counts. It's assumed that an economy can begin to come back on mine, but I have seen far too much analysis telling us by the third quarter, you know, by the summertime, we're going to be back to normal. I don't know about you, but I don't think we're all going to be going around to crowded movie theatres and concerts and shaking hands with each other come July. It's going to take a while. And our behaviours are probably not going to go back to how they were before. Even a two week shock like this is going to change the way that households and businesses operate. And I'm not a psychologist either, but even as an economist, I can tell you I have pretty high confidence we're not going back to the way we were.

MG: We'll talk more as this unfolds. In the meantime, it's great to speak with you both this morning. Thank you.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Armine Yalnizyan is the Atkinson Fellow on the Future of Workers. Frances Donald is the global chief economist at Manulife Investment Management. And we'll check in with them, as I say again in the weeks ahead.

[Music]

Why one gardener thinks old-time Victory Gardens could take root in this time of the coronavirus

Guests: Debi Goodwin

MG: My name's Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Just for a moment, I want to take you back to the early 1940s. The world was sliding into war. For many, that meant all hands on deck and those who weren't fighting did anything and everything to contribute.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Victory Garden. That's the answer. We can grow food for victory in our own backyards and even in vacant lots where perhaps only weeds flourished before. Because so long as this war lasts, great quantities of food must be grown.

MG: Well, it's not exactly the front line, but Victory gardens were our response to a world at war. Today, as the world battles a different crisis, some people are saying it may be time to bring those gardens back. Debi Goodwin is a former CBC producer and the author of A Victory Garden for Trying Times. Debi, good morning.

DEBI GOODWIN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: That was stirring to listen to. A call to plant in some ways.

DEBI GOODWIN: Yeah, no, they had all the sow for victory, all sorts of slogans.

MG: What were the Victory gardens? For people who don't know, what were they?

DEBI GOODWIN: Well, the short answer is they were home vegetable gardens used to supplement food in times of war. They actually started in the First World War in Great Britain. Didn't quite take hold there — I think the British liked their roses too much. But the Americans really ran with the program. And there was a wonderful man named Charles who came up with posters of feisty vegetables as ammunition and slogans like "The Garden Victorious," and he managed to get five million war gardens, as they were first called, into American gardens. And as the speaker at the beginning said to what they called slacker land — any land that was available. It was essential to help Europe. At that time, Americans saw that because they knew that when peace came, there wouldn't be farm for ages because of what had happened to the lands and the abandoned farms. And again, it disappeared. As soon as war was over, they disappeared and they came back in the Second World War.

MG: Well, this is something that perhaps people are thinking about for a bunch of reasons. It's springtime. I've been thinking about what I might plant in my garden just as a way to distract myself from the news of the day. What in the pandemic got you thinking about victory gardens?

DEBI GOODWIN: Well, I did a first victory garden four years ago. My husband had oesophageal cancer and I needed something to get me distracted, as you said, but also to remind me that life goes on and I've always found being in the garden a wonderful solace. I grew up on a farm and my favourite memories are planting vegetables with my father. So I think sometimes we turn to those fine men. And also, I think it's good for the planet. I like to save money. I like my own produce. I like to cook with my own food. So it became my project that you had to learn about it. Plan one and create one.

MG: You mentioned your husband, the great CBC radio and television producer, Peter Kavanagh. So many of us knew and loved him and his work. Tell me about the garden and how it helped you through through that tough time.

DEBI GOODWIN: When I'm in the garden, I'm only in the garden. I wasn't thinking about the next treatment we had to go to. You know, I wasn't thinking about what I looked like. I wasn't thinking about anything but what I was doing. I think that was the main benefit. And seeing planting a seed and seeing it come up, a sign that there is hope that things could get better. So I kind of ran with that and, you know, my garden was tremendous that year. Unfortunately, Peter died just as I had all my crop and I really hated the garden then. I didn't want anything to do with it for quite a while because I felt like such a fool for putting hope in to a garden. But, you know, gardens pull you back in. They have to be cleaned. They have to be weeded. And by fall, I wanted to live to another spring to plant another garden. So it saved me.

MG: What did he think of the garden?

DEBI GOODWIN: Oh, he loved the idea. He really encouraged me. Peter knew me pretty well and he knew I needed to be in nature. I needed to be on my own digging, even when he got his terminal diagnosis, he said, Debi, this does not stop your victory garden. I didn't know quite what he meant by that by the end, by months later, I figured he meant I just had to go on and plant another garden.

MG: How do you think that that idea would help people now who are dealing with the anxiety of this pandemic that we're in? There's a lot of uncertainty. People don't know what's what's going to happen later today, let alone what's gonna happen in six weeks.

DEBI GOODWIN: Exactly, and I think anxiety is the key word. When you work in the garden, you kind of have to have patience. You get back into the rhythm of nature and we have to remember that's still going on, even though our whole world is changed. And I think we're all grieving. We're all feeling the loss of a world. And as your last guest said, the world is probably not going to come back if we knew it, so I think going out and doing something for your family, you can do it for your community. This community garden that we could make function if we have no shifts in social distancing and give food to other people. I think it can be part of our community building. It can be part of our personal survival. And being out there for hours can ease that anxiety.

MG: We are just creeping out of winter and spring is around us, but there's always the danger of a false spring and winter could come roaring back. Are you starting to think about the garden?

DEBI GOODWIN: Absolutely. I've got my seeds started and that's the plan and ordered seeds. In fact, I did some calls around to seed companies, and Stokes Canada had to close the website to gardeners, home gardeners because they can't handle the demand. So other people are thinking about this too. I spoke to a nursery and they're planning on planting more seedlings because they know the demand is going to be great. So it's not just me thinking about it. I think people are looking for something they can do. But also, I think people are worried about the safety of the food they touch in grocery stores and whether food will get through at all.

MG: There is really something special about eating the food that you've grown yourself.

DEBI GOODWIN: Absolutely. I mean, even after Peter died, my garden was there and I was in a fog. But I'd you know go out and grab stuff and eat it. And that was my food for the first few months.

MG: Food for thought. Debi, it's great to talk to you about this. You've got me thinking about what to plant this spring. Thank you.

DEBI GOODWIN: All right. Thanks a lot, Matt. Bye bye.

MG: Debi Goodwin, the author of A Victory Garden for Trying Times. Thinking about planting? Here's some music that might encourage you. This is Laura Mvula and it's called "Green Garden."

[Song: "Green Garden" by Laura Mvula]

MG: That's Laura Mvula. Tune called "Green Garden." Coming up in about 90 seconds, we head south of the border and talk of states that are far from united in the way that they're handling this pandemic. More on the spread in the US when The Current returns after 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. Stay with us.

[Song: "Green Garden" by Laura Mvula]

As the number of COVID-19 cases in the US surges, Americans prepare for a tough new normal

Guests: Carl Hiaasen, Kat Stafford, Sarah Smith Hymes, Eric Ding

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. And by now you've probably heard that the United States is the new epicentre for COVID-19. Yesterday, the White House's top infectious disease expert, Dr. Anthony Fauci, predicted that millions of Americans would be infected and perhaps one to 200,000 could die. U.S. President Donald Trump extended national self-isolation rules to the end of April, backtracking from his earlier plans to get the country back up and running by Easter. There is not exactly political consensus on what to do to best protect Americans. Some states are ordering citizens to stay home. Governor Ron DeSantis has resisted doing the same for Florida.

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VOICE: People are going to go out of business. People are going to lose their jobs. There's going to be upheavals in their lives and that is something that we should not do flippantly.

MG: There is a patchwork response to this pandemic in the United States. And we're going to check in with different states now to see how that is playing out. We begin in the Sunshine State. Carl Hiaasen has spent decades writing about the people and politics of Florida as a columnist for the Miami Herald. He, of course, is also a well known novelist. He is in Vero Beach in Florida. Carl, good morning.

CARL HIAASEN: How you doing, Matt?

MG: I'm well, we just heard the governor there saying that you don't close down businesses flippantly. How would you describe the pandemic situation in Florida?

CARL HIAASEN: Well, right now, it's concentrated very heavily in South Florida, where I was born and grew up in Broward, Miami-Dade, Palm Beach counties. And, you know, they've closed the Florida Keys, which to outsiders and the tourists, which was a significant move. You could argue that some of it came pretty late because Governor DeSantis did not show this level of alarm when all the spring breakers were going nuts from Panama City to Key West. The beaches were open. I am, we all fear that there's going to be a a later explosion of cases, as there was in New Orleans after Mardi Gras Carnival because the spring break just recently ended here. But there, you know, there are thousands and thousands of kids wallowing together. Even as a result, the country was facing the first wave of the pandemic. So I think he was a little late to the game. But different parts of the state have very, very different concentrations of cases right now. It's quite interesting when you look at the map.

MG: How seriously do you think people are taking this pandemic?

CARL HIAASEN: I think it all depends. I mean, there are counties up in the Panhandle that have zero cases. There's a couple counties up at Lake Okeechobee. They don't even have a single diagnosed case. And I don't and then they tend to be rural. And I think if you live on a ranch, a big ranch or a cow farm or sugar cane, I don't think you have the same sense of people, you know, the confinement, people breathing on you, people touching you. I think they probably have a little different attitude. I think if you're in a big city, Miami or Lauderdale, I think people are sort of properly freaking out.

MG: Is that why the governor has been reluctant to tell people to stay home, in part because it's a big, sprawling, diverse state and different people are being impacted in different ways?

CARL HIAASEN: You know, I don't know how to get inside his mind. But I do know this, there's 22 million people in this state and you can tell him to stay home until you're blue in the face. They're not all going to stay home. They're not waiting with bated breath or from the senators to tell him how to behave. People who are in a vulnerable situations are already self isolating. They're already careful. Somebody that lives out in the middle of the Everglades probably really doesn't, you know, it's not that psyched up about it. So but it's a very hard thing to say everyone stay at home and then make them stay at home. There are people who are still working and some of them have very isolated kind of jobs. You know, rural outdoor jobs, agricultural jobs. That's the sort of thing. So there's a real question is, you know, and they're not in a high risk area, do they, you make them, you know, put the tractors away and the equipment away and you stop farm production when there's no cases in their area. I mean those are legitimate questions.

MG: I just see so much of the economy or a huge part of the economy is tourism. And I would think and you mentioned spring break, but I would assume that much of the tourism and that tourism market has just evaporated.

CARL HIAASEN: Totally. Once they shut Disneyworld and like Universal, you know, those central attractions in central Florida and once they closed, to be honest, once they started closing the beaches in south Florida and all the way up here to where I live, people either left or wherever they went, they went because, you know, that was the attraction obviously. Spring break without beaches is pretty lame. So they and they shut the bars and then it just poured into the grocery stores to try to buy, you know, beer and wine there. And that is all settled down, but the damage that was done during that period and it was almost two weeks is what everyone's waiting kind of holding their breath on right now. I mean, the cases are very as I said, like, for instance, the county I live, we have and they've been testing here too, we have right now only 20 cases and no deaths. And yet there are counties down south that are more populated and have you know much, much higher, grimmer numbers than that.

MG: Just before I let you go, how worried are you about what could be coming?

CARL HIAASEN: I mean I'm not an epidemiologist, and I can only, I worry because we are very, very populated state and and not everyone is paying attention. I think that's true all over the country though, Matt. I think you have people that really haven't gotten the message yet. And that's what I worry about. I think individually people tend to be smart and safe, but I think you have enough, you know, frankly, you have enough morons out there who can spread the disease very recklessly and into very vulnerable populations because they just aren't paying attention yet. So those are the people I worry about, the people that I see, you know, still gathering, still hugging each other, still drinking and holding parties. I think these, you know, there's an element of Darwinism at work here. The problem is they're infecting innocent people.

MG: Take care of yourself Carl. It's a real pleasure to talk to you.

CARL HIAASEN: All right. Matt, thanks. Take care.

MG: And you. Carl Hiaasen is an author and columnist for The Miami Herald. He's in Vero Beach, Florida. From Florida to Michigan, this nurse is describing her first shift during the pandemic.

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VOICE: Today was the first day that I worked since our unit was designated the second COVID ICU in my hospital. And now for the past 13 hours, honestly, guys felt like I was working in a war zone. Completely isolated from my team members, limited resources, limited supplies, limited responses from physicians cause they're just as overwhelmed as we are dealing with a ton of other stuff. So basically, I just spent the last 13 hours like treating two critically ill COVID patients on the bed basically by myself. And this is my new normal for the next however many months that it takes for this virus to die down.

MG: Michigan is quickly becoming one of the hardest hit states in the United States, and some people say it's having an outsized effect on Michigan's most marginal marginalized communities. Kat Stafford is a race and ethnicity writer for the Associated Press in Detroit. Kat, good morning to you.

KAT STAFFORD: Good morning.

MG: We just heard the desperation in the voice of that nurse talking. It's harrowing of what she saw on her first shift. Give me a sense of what it's like to be in Michigan right now.

KAT STAFFORD: So we have seen, frankly, a really dramatic increase in cases here in Michigan. And even just yesterday, I was tuning in to the White House press conference and we had once again an official make a reference specifically to the city of Detroit here as well. The county in New Orleans is the next place to watch. This weekend I was working in. I spoke with a doctor at a local health system here. And the way she put it was she said, at this point, Detroit's trajectory is even more steep than what we've seen in New York and she said this is off the charts. She called it almost tsunami in terms of how these cases are just flowing into the hospital.

MG: Why is Detroit so vulnerable right now?

KAT STAFFORD: So Detroit is unique because Detroit systemically has had a lot of issues. You have populations that have high rates of asthma because we are such an industrial area, we have populations that are battling diabetes, hypertension, all of these health issues that can make it someone get COVID-19. It will make it that much harder for them to fight it. And also, when you take a step to look beyond the fact that this population has significant health issues, you have to look at the fact that in the city of Detroit, there are a lot of folks who don't have transportation. There are a lot of people who are living in poverty, the state. The city of Detroit has one of the country's highest rates of poverty. So when you look at all these factors, you even take a step further and fold into the fact that African-Americans historically have a distrust when it comes to the government. They also don't trust the medical system because of systemic racism in how that has impacted their communities. So when you put all of that in the bowl together, it's really creating a dire situation here.

MG: Are people generally following the guidance to stay at home and, as they say, help flatten the curve in Michigan?

KAT STAFFORD: So what we have seen is our governor, Gretchen Whitmer, has taken a series of aggressive steps to really kind of ensure that people are staying at home. But unfortunately, we have seen videos of people congregating in different parts of the community. We have seen the Detroit mayor urge and basically plead with people to please be at homes for a while. I think a lot of people, even in my own neighbourhood. I'm seeing people that are following these rules. They're staying at home, but unfortunately, there are some people that still don't quite seem to be taking this seriously enough.

MG: The other element and this is something that you've written about is around water. We're being told to stay home. We're also being told to wash our hands, you know, dozens, hundreds of times a day. What is the situation in Michigan when it comes to people having availability of running water because the water has been shut off in some people's homes.

KAT STAFFORD: This is crucial. The CDC, who every official has been pleading with people, please washing hands. But in a city of Detroit since 2014, there have been more than one hundred twenty seven thousand watershed jobs for people who were past due on their bills. Now, the city of Detroit recently started a program to restart and reconnect people to their water. But critics are saying it's not moving too fast. And when you have people in your community who can't wash their hands. The concern is will this spread COVID-19 either further in a city that's already had all of these issues stacked on top of it. So this past week, I took a deep dive and I actually found out that watershed authoirty issue across the entire nation. But in Michigan late Saturday night, the governor actually issued an executive order pretty much ordering every single community in the state to turn people's water back on.

MG: That's what the governor is doing. I started out by saying that there isn't a lot of alignment across the United States when it comes to how individual states are operating. What's the relationship like between the state government and the federal government?

KAT STAFFORD: So we've seen a bit of tension over the past couple of days. Governor Whitmer has been very vocal in pretty blunt about the fact that Michigan, like every other state right now across this country, has a shortage of supplies. We have hospitals that are begging for it. We just put more material so that they can better serve these patients as they come in. And I think that frankness has kind of drawn the ire of President Trump, who recently has on Twitter in even in certain interviews, publicly attacked her. But over the past couple of days, we've also seen the state get more resources. So it appears that that relationship is starting to come to a point where everyone just wants to get people better. They want people to be safe. And hopefully that's what we'll continue to see because we have yet to hit our peak yet here in Michigan.

MG: Kat, take care of yourself and thanks for talking to us.

KAT STAFFORD: Thanks.

MG: Kat Stafford is a race and ethnicity writer for the Associated Press in Detroit, Michigan. Colorado Rockies, home to that state's famous ski resorts, have emerged as an unlikely hotspot in the American COVID-19 outbreak. As of last week eagle County, Colorado, had the most cases per capita of any county in that state. But even then, public health officials suspect that thousands of cases are just not showing up yet because people haven't been tested. Sarah Smith Hymes is the mayor of Avon, Colorado,. Sarah Smith Hymes, good morning to you.

SARAH SMITH HYMES: Hello. How are you?

MG: I'm well. How concerned are you about what's going on in your area, particularly in the number of cases that might not even be detected out there?

SARAH SMITH HYMES: You know, we're used to taking local action about things because we're a rural community that is tourist based. So we responded to the first onset of cases very, very aggressively through the leadership of our the CEO of our local hospital and through our county commissioners. So when the ski resorts were closed by the governor, I think that that was such a wakeup call for all of us that the governor of the state of Colorado and Vail Resorts would actually close their ski resorts in the middle of spring break. I think that that really lit a fire under all of us and the community, Avon as part of Eagle County. And we've really responded to this crisis countywide. We have a county wide public health department. So, of course, I'm very concerned. We're very concerned, but we have been extremely aggressive. We prepared our hospitals, started preparing at the end of January with a special task force. So even though we are very concerned about it, of course, and are the proportion of cases in Eagle County is very high because of the number of international visitors that we get. And we had a huge Burton open was here at the end of February, which is probably part of the reason that we had it had such a spike in cases. Of course, I'm very concerned, but I'm also very confident in the preparations that we've made as a county.

MG: So on the one hand, you have those big resorts that are shutting down. As you mentioned, there's also a huge snowboard competition that happens at the end of February. There are people who are gathering. We've been hearing, you know, whether it's in Michigan or whether it's in Florida, that people perhaps aren't taking this as seriously as they need to. How seriously are people taking this crisis in your community now?

SARAH SMITH HYMES: They are. When the ski resorts were closed on the 13th week, the town we were full of visitors, lots of people left. But I think it was on on March 18th, the CEO of our local hospital, Dale Health, sent a letter to the community that was startling in its projects, in its predictions about how desperate this situation could become if people didn't start following the rules. And so starting on March 18th, I think people they really started taking it seriously.

MG: The CEO hospital said.

SARAH SMITH HYMES: There's still there's still a young population here that feels that they are not susceptible to the virus. So I think some of that population isn't following the rules as carefully as they might. But for the most part, I think the county is complying pretty well. We have a very large non English speaking community here, the service workers that serve the ski resorts in hotels and restaurants. And I think trying to get the message out to them is critical. We have everything we do is done in Spanish and English. But for the most part, I think people are complaining.

MG: The CEO and I apologize for interrupting, the CEO of the hospital said that, these are the CEO's words. "We will not have enough respirators to keep people alive. Locals of all ages will be dying." How do small towns try to think about caring for people who are going to get seriously ill with this?

SARAH SMITH HYMES: Well, we're really lucky in this mountain community. We are cooperating with all of our mountain town partners and we have been able to send our most critical cases to Denver to a lower altitude. So up until now, we are in. We're in good shape. We have enough respirators. We've been able to care locally for the non-critical patients. And the critical patients have been sent to Denver. And again, we're cooperating across all of these mountain communities. We're sharing resources. So we're you know, I'm expecting the wave to hit us, but right now, we're managing fine. But we're prepared and we're prepared to share our resources across the different mountain communities that are in close proximity to each other.

MG: As this spreads, it gets closer and closer to us. How close is it to you?

SARAH SMITH HYMES: I'm sorry. Say that again.

MG: I said as this spreads, it gets closer and closer to us. We might have thought that initially this was a distant thing. Then it's friends of friends then its friends. And we know people who work in the health care system as well. How close is this getting to you?

SARAH SMITH HYMES: Oh, you know, it's you know, we're a small town. We're a small community. The mayor of Vail has COVID. He's fine. But and, you know, the father of some hockey, the father of a hockey friend of my son's is one of the two fatalities in Denver. And, you know, one of the most popular entertainers for the last 30 years, he is our second death. So we're very sensitive to it and, you know, it it's I think people have seen everybody knows someone who has it. And many people know that two people who have died from it. So, you know, it is hitting home. And, you know, we're all being very, very careful. Even my son, I have a 25 and a 26 year old son. And, you know, in the beginning, they were a little bit cavalier about it, but they are both of them are taking it deadly seriously and they are following all the rules. So we it's you know, we are aware of that threat that it poses to our economy. Our greatest threat, aside from the health threat, is the long term economic impact on our town. If that's even, it's not more frightening than the COVID, but it is just as freightening. And that's what people are so stressed about because our economy has evaporated overnight.

MG: I wish you the best of luck. Thank you for talking to us.

SARAH SMITH HYMES: Thanks Matt.

MG: Sarah Smith Hymes is the mayor of Avon. That's in Eagle County, Colorado. Many people have accused the United States of dragging feet on this crisis. My next guest is somebody who tried to raise the alarm back in January. Eric Ding is an epidemiologist at Harvard. He called on the World Health organization and the CDC to declare a public health emergency months ago. Eric Ding is in Arlington, Virginia. Eric, good morning to you.

ERIC DING: Good morning.

MG: You're in Virginia. The number of cases there is around 900. What is the situation like there?

ERIC DING: There well, I'm in a suburb of Washington, D.C. and so D.C. has, metro area has quadrupled the number of cases in the last week alone. And unfortunately, there's a whole series of nursing homes between Baltimore and Richmond, Virginia, that have been hit really, really hard with some. Like the one nursing home in Baltimore was hit with like 70 or 80 cases of between its patients and staff. So and we know the nursing home population is extremely vulnerable. And of course, there's also some sort of high profile individuals, members of Congress and their staff, who've also tested positive and in certain ways to also bringing it back to their communities, as well as having the previous some conventions in which people have speculated it was any of our leadership, you know, infected or not. So, you know, people are on high alert, but at the same time, there's way too many people who are out. The Cherry Blossom Parade last weekend, not the parade, the Cherry Blossom Festival. So it is altogether still people are not thinking as seriously as they should. Senators are going around with huge entourages. And the night they were taking votes, there were a lot of people gathered altogether. So it's really hard to say because I feel like people are still not taking this seriously. I raised the alarm a long time ago because, like, I saw the information and I was reading the tea leaves that this epidemic is really bad. It's not your typical flu.

MG: Is your sense, I mean, the president has stepped back on his calls to reopen the country by Easter. Now, extending this until at least the end of April. Is your sense that the White House is taking this more seriously now?

ERIC DING: They are taking a lot more seriously now, but begrudgingly and in many ways, no. There is obviously a lot of pressure to reopen the economy, but it's I think what people are missing is, besides the number infected and the number of people who die, this disease is so serious and clogging the healthcare system that some there are people who are on ventilators for three or four weeks, literally on ventilators, can't breathe by themselves, three or four weeks. This is assuming they even live and there's enough ventilators for everyone. So then the nature and the congestion of health care system is almost incalculable, because right now if you have a heart attack and you need to see a doctor in New York, you have a high chance that you won't be seen soon enough or fast enough. And even people who don't have COVID are also likely to be suffering a lot of health care implications. And this is what people are not appreciating. It's the cost of health care is soaring and the quality is declining exponentially as this thing is hitting us as.

MG: As somebody who tried to ring the alarm bell in January, what is it like to hear, we've just been speaking to people across the United States, in Florida, in Michigan, in Colorado, to hear of a situation that doesn't seem to be coordinated at all, where individual states are making decisions and that doesn't lead to the sense of coordinated effort that perhaps is needed to tackle something like this. What's it like for you to watch that unfold?

ERIC DING: It is extremely, extremely frustrating. It is the feeling I'm shouting and no one's listening and I'm shouting and people reacting late. And the lack of coordination is also worrisome because in order to have a system nationwide effective in stopping the epidemic, you know, all over U.S. states are very porous and borders. There's virtually no real borders. If you one state is implementing this, you know, shelter in place and business closures will be joining, state is not. That is like a leaky hole in a ship. And you can, if your ship has 50 holes and you plug 30 or 40 of them really tight, the ship is still going to be sinking because that's the nature of the United States. It's the very poures country between states. And it is so frustrating that we need all our governors on the same boat and we can't playing favourites, place political favouritism and whatnot from the federal government either.

MG: Do you worry when the president talks about the economy and importance of the economy and maybe we can get back to, you know, regular life by the end of April, the people who've been taking the steps that they need to take that they might doubt the seriousness of the situation?

ERIC DING: Yeah, there is a lot of people who are doubting it or just dismissing and saying, let's just take the hit, reopen the country. And that is extremely, extremely dangerous of an attitude. And I cannot emphasize enough that will jeopardize not just prosperity economically, but also prosperity and our trust in government and long haul in our civil society. Because when you have a couple hundred thousand people or half a million people potentially die or more and you could all have been easily prevented, that is when a lot of even greater civil unrest will happen and that will actually hurt our economy and our society way, way more in the long term. And this is why we must do everything we can to stop this epidemic.

MG: Just, we have a few seconds left. What gives you hope in the middle of that? Much of what you've said is very bleak. But is there something knowing what you know, is there something that gives you some modicum of hope?

ERIC DING: Yes, there's a lot of great new technology of testing. That there's five minute rapid testing that's been FDA approved and will be available in 50,000 units by April 1st. We hopefully will have get through a lot of the bottlenecks of our testing that way and the testing, mass contact tracing will potentially put out the fire if the mitigation is successful enough in lowering the number of cases. And so I think we can get to the front of the head of the virus, maybe getting to testing frontier. And then we know like if we get to that testing frontier, we can actually lower the cases to stop the epidemic like how South Korea has. Hope is not lost.

MG: Hope is not lost. We'll leave it there. It's good to talk to you. Thank you.

ERIC DING: Thank you.

MG: Eric Ding is a Harvard epidemiologist. He was in Arlington, Virginia, just outside of Washington, D.C.. CBC News is next. Coming up in about six minutes on this extended edition of The Current, for many Canadians, you know that cash is tight right now. It's a big problem for charities across this country. They're the ones that need some help in this moment. We'll hear more about that coming up in six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

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Canadian charities say they need a bailout too

Guests: Ahmed Hussen, Samantha Nutt, Andrea Seale

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, Tom Power's conversation with Ellen Page. You may know her from films like Juno. Her new project is in Climate Activism. We'll hear all about that coming up. But first, Ottawa's help for Canada's charities.

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MG: [sc]

VOICE: Not only are organizations in the charitable sector and the non-profit sector doing incredibly important work during very difficult times, they're also in many cases seeing their donations dry up and are very worried about their capacity to continue to do the work they're doing. We're going to ensure that they can continue to do this incredible work that is so important for Canadians.

MG: That's the prime minister announcing the latest series of measures to respond to the COVID-19 pandemic. Yesterday, the federal government committed close to $225 million to help people experiencing homelessness, as well as to charities like the United Way and Kids Help Phone line. Ahmed Hussen is the Minister of Families, Children and Social Development. Minister, good morning. $157 million of that money was announced to help people experiencing homelessness. Who's going to get that money?

AHMED HUSSEN: We will be channelling that money through the federal Reaching Home program. So it goes directly to community entities that serve homeless individuals directly. And so it's a very efficient and very community based approach that helps frontline organizations, designated communities right across the country, including the territories, including indigenous communities, including rural and remote streams. So this is money that is on top of the regular anti homelessness, federal money that is supposed to come online for this year on April 1st. This is an additional amount of money specifically meant to target COVID-19.

MG: The need for that money is real because we're seeing already cities having to set up pop up shelters and community centres and convention centres. And in parks, people are handing out tents to the homeless, in major cities, including the city of Toronto. In your mind, are those acceptable ways to house people who are experiencing homelessness?

AHMED HUSSEN: No and that's precisely why as soon as we were sezed with the issue of COVID-19, I have been on the phone with major city mayors almost every other day. And we moved very, very quickly. Matt, in addition to the $157.5 million, we released an initial amount of $15 million, which is additional to the one $157.5 million that went directly to the to the most impacted urban centres to help them move quickly to make sure that we prevent an outbreak of COVID-19 within the homeless population and then manage any potential.

MG: But the reality is those temporary shelters are being set up, that people are sleeping in tents. And they concern from people who are on the frontlines is that those who are living in those sites are able to practise the public health recommendations around social distancing that we're being given by public health officials. Are you concerned about that?

AHMED HUSSEN: Very much concerned. And that's precisely why the $157 million is clearly targeted towards that. So it is meant to be flexible and used for anti-COVID-19 measures. So it enables local entities to procure hotel space, motel space, additional shelter space and even physical barriers to promote physical distancing and all the things that the public health agency and public health officials in the provinces are asking people to do. It's difficult to do that in overcrowded shelters and this money is supposed to do precisely enable those entities to practice that that advice with respect to the homeless population.

MG: What complicates this in some ways is that this crisis was already under way when it came to the shelters before COVID-19 appeared. That many shelters operate at or above capacity. We have something like 35,000 people who are on any given day are without a home in this country. How do we get to this point where that many people are homeless?

AHMED HUSSEN: I think it's fair to say, Matt, that when it comes to housing, there had been over the last decade, there had been an absence of federal leadership and quite frankly, federal real investments in housing. And if you want to deal with housing, you have to deal with housing throughout the whole spectrum of housing, from homelessness to making investing in community and social housing and making rent affordable and then even folks to access home ownership. And the national housing strategy, which we introduced in 2017, is the return of the federal government in terms of leadership and resources. And our job and my job specifically as the minister responsible for housing federally is to provide that federal leadership, but we can't do it alone. We need provinces to step up as well. We need municipalities to be creative, to unlock land and to unlock other incentives and speed up the planning process. So it's a whole of society approach, but the federal government, of course, plays a lion's, provide the lion's share of resources and crucially, the leadership necessary. And we have done a lot, but there's more work to be done.

MG: And in this crisis, what leadership will your government do when it comes to those who are working on those front lines with those homeless populations? We've heard from street nurses, from social workers who are concerned that they themselves are at risk for COVID-19 because they're helping people in a population, again, that's dense, that's tight, that cannot practise social distancing. So is your government going to be providing those frontline workers, those specific frontline workers with supplies, perhaps better personal protective equipment so that they aren't as much at risk?

AHMED HUSSEN: Absolutely. So, for example, in the $157.5 million dollars, although it doesn't cover all the organizations, but the organizations that are serving the vulnerable populations of the homeless individuals, there's also an additional $50 million that's going directly to women's shelters. For both those fundsm for a total of $207 million, it's actually meant to procure personal protective equipment, supposed to procure cleaning supplies and other supplies and other medical supplies. It's flexible precisely because of that. We want those entities to make those decisions and not to be encumbered by requirements that prevent them to use these moneys for those kinds of approaches. But on the larger issues that you point out, it's really, really important that at a time when more and more vulnerable people, more dependent than ever before on frontline organizations, that we are there for them. They're seeing a drop in their donations, we're seeing a dramatic drop in the number of volunteers and even supplies that they normall would see. So our job is to be there for them. And we've been talking to the sector. I've been talking to folks in United Way, YMCA, YWCA, those with call also besides that, with hundreds of smaller community based organizations. We're listening to them. There's a number of proposals that they've brought to the table.

MG: One of those proposals is they're asking for $10 billion in stabilization funds to continue doing what they're doing.

AHMED HUSSEN: That's one thing and then there's also a more immediate ask for an emergency response fund, which would enable some of these folks to continue the work that they're doing for the most vulnerable Canadians, folks who are very hard to reach, folks who are very access. Enabling folks to access benefits through helping them file their income taxes, for example, or delivering meals on wheels to seniors. We have to be there for them and we will in the next year we'll be making an announcement with respect to how precisely we'll be able to do that.

MG: Just just to be clear, though, just to be clear, will it be the $10 billion that those agencies are looking for?

AHMED HUSSEN: As I said, the fact is there's a number of things that have been announced that potentially could help these organizations. But on top of that, they do require immediate help to serve the most vulnerable and then also have a conversation around stabilization of he entire sector. This is a really important sector. Employees, millions of Canadians. It does really important work on the ground for populations that are that are vulnerable on a regular day and in the context of COVID-19, have even more challenges in front of them. We have to be there for them. How is what we'll determine over the next few days, but those conversations are on-going. We're listening to the sector. We've got to get it right and policy making has been speeded up in the context of COVID-19, but we're listening to them and the best way to make the best policy with respect to helping this sector is to listen to them and to see how best we can help them in a way that works for them as well.

MG: We're going to listen directly to members of that sector now. In the meantime, Minister, it's good to speak with you. Thank you.

AHMED HUSSEN: Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: Ahmed Hussen is the Minister of Families, Children and Social Development. As he mentioned and as we raised, Canada's charitable sector is warning about the impact of COVID-19 on their ability to do their work. And they are indeed calling for a $10 billion stabilization fund. Two of the people behind that campaign, they're calling helping the helpers. Joining me now is Dr. Sam Nutt is the founder and president of War Child Canada. Andrea Seale is the executive director of the Canadian Cancer Society. Good morning to you both.

SAMANTHA NUTT: Good morning Matt.

ANDREA SEALE: Good morning.

MG: Sam, are you encouraged by what you've heard from Ahmed Hussen?

SAMANTHA NUTT: I certainly am, and I'm encouraged by the announcements they've made so far, although those have been largely targeted announcements focussing on specific sectors, in terms of, as you mentioned, homelessness already, women's shelters, Kids Help Phone. Those are great and important initiatives, but the whole sector needs a strategy. And you mentioned what we've asked for, which is the $10 billion stabilization fund. Every day match charities are making really tough decisions around whether they can afford to keep their staff on the payroll and continue to do their work. And the longer it takes the federal government to signal to the charitable sector that there will be immediate action in line with some of our recommendations. Unfortunately some of those tough decisions are being made and we're hearing that every day from the more than 200 charitable partners who signed on to the emergency coalition.

MG: Tell me more before I bring Andrea in, tell me more about the impact that you're talking about there. What is this pandemic doing to Canada's charities?

SAMANTHA NUTT: It's been absolutely devastating. I mean, I can't even begin to overstate it. Many of us have event based fundraisers that are a significant part of our revenue, all of those are either cancelled or on hold. In the case of War Child, it's our 20 year anniversary. So we had a series of activities leading up to that, that would have generated more than a million dollars for our organisation. That's all on permanent hold. They're being suspended. Some of us have had foundational grants, individual donors who are now no longer in a position to be able to continue to support our efforts and our experience is War Child really echoes what I've heard over the past week. Again, for more than 200 charities, ones that everybody in this country would recognise who has signed onto this letter to the prime minister and the finance minister who are all facing the same kind of constraints and who are looking at a steep and rapid decline, if not the complete sort of evisceration of our fund raising and revenue streams.

MG: Evisceration. That's a really strong word. Andrea, Canadian Cancer Society is a charity that many Canadians would know. What has COVID-19 meant for your organization?

ANDREA SEALE: Well, for us, it's been a twofold hit because for the for the more than a million Canadians who are living with an beyond cancer there, their needs have grown during COVID-19. They need to get to their treatments. Cancer is not stopping during this pandemic and so the national support system that we provide for them. There's parts of it that are much harder to deliver now, which is meaning that people need online help. We're shifting our support to go online and to send people to things like our toll free cancer help line and our online support forums. But that's happening at the same time, as our, as Sam mentioned, as our donations are being kept so severely.

MG: I think of, well you think of April, right? April is a big month for you.

ANDREA SEALE: Exactly. April is a huge cancer awareness month. And it's when we're out fundraising in the community. We were we were set to have 27000 volunteers out in communities fundraising for cancer. And like many organizations, we've had to cancel all of that, of course, to to support social distancing. And we've counselled hundreds of events that were planned for the next for the next couple of months. So we're expecting for us. I mean, it's hard to say because none of us know how long this is going to last. But. This is probably the biggest threat that the Canadian Cancer Society have faced in an 80 year history, and we're expecting potentially half of the funds that we would would need in a year might might not be able to be raised.

MG: Have you had to lay off staff?

ANDREA SEALE: Well, we have been doing everything that we can to avoid that, but yes, actually today we are announcing that we're laying off about a third of our staff.

MG: Wow. So what is it, well, you already talked about what's happening now is meaning to the people who rely on your organization. If you lay off a third of your staff, what is that going to mean for people who use this organization?

ANDREA SEALE: Yeah, it's going to making partner. I mean, we're absolutely dedicated to supporting people, and so we're we're doing it in the best ways we can right now by by creating those online connections to people and by mobilizing volunteers to help help directly to patients and their caregivers. But I think most important that we want to see is for everyone to respect the physical distancing and for us to get through the pandemic together and get on the other side of it so that we can we can get back to supporting people in the way that they really need it.

MG: Sam, the work the War Child Canada does continues in the midst of something like this. How is this affecting that work?

SAMANTHA NUTT: It's been extremely challenging, as you know, Matt. We work in the most unstable corners of the world where, including in refugee camps where even social distancing is virtually impossible under those circumstances. So we've responded. Obviously, the priority is to keep our staff and our team safe, but also to engage in outreach and education, to try to offset the impact that this is going to have, particularly when it starts to to hit on unstable parts of the world. And we are seeing that we're very active in many African countries, who are active in Afghanistan, in the Middle East. And so we're having to do a lot more right now and the demands that are on our teams are significantly greater to Andrea's point than they even were a month ago. It's hard to believe it was only a month ago now, but we're also facing the greatest constraints financially that we've ever faced as an organization. So it's really tough. And just to get back to Andrea's point, I mean, this is her experience and it created the Cane Cancer Society. This is what we're hearing from partners. We're hearing that every day that it takes to get a signal from the government that the kind of stabilization funding that we're asking for is going to take place. People are being forced to make extremely tough choices that we won't. Many in many cases be able to come back from most charitable organizations in this country has less than one to two months of operational reserves on hand. By definition, if you give money to a charity under normal circumstances, you want to see that money put to good use immediately. So that means we're not putting money into bank accounts to save for rainy days, which means that we are uniquely vulnerable at a time like this. And many of us, frankly, won't make it beyond the summer without some sort of strong indication and support.

MG: Ahmed Hussen, I mean said he's listening, but he also really was very clear in not answering the question about whether $10 billion is coming. So you go back to the question of being encouraged, if that money doesn't come sooner rather than later, you're suggesting that some of the people who signed onto this letter, their organizations could disappear.

SAMANTHA NUTT: Yeah. I'm not suggesting it. I'm guaranteeing it that way. From what we've heard from the more than 200 aid agencies that have signed up is that many of them will not survive this and they don't even have the capacity to survive more than a couple of months.

MG: For you Andrea, why did the Canadian Cancer Society sign on to this help the helpers campaign?

SAMANTHA NUTT: Well, I think it's just important to draw attention to the charitable sector. It's kind of invisible in many people's lives, but it's actually what holds so much of our society together. People who are working in for health or education, food banks, blood banks, all of this is supported by charitable organizations and we're huge contributors to the economy. We employ so many people and so we need that targeted help right now. And I know that everyone is suffering at the moment and there's a lot of places that need support, but I don't, we don't want the charitable sector to be forgotten and all of the people that we serve to be forgotten.

MG: And so if you don't get, if this $10 billion or some sort of stabilization fund doesn't come, what happens in three weeks? What happens in a month Andrea for the Canadian Cancer Society?

ANDREA SEALE: Well, we're going to keep adapting. I mean, we've been adapting as quickly as we can. Every day the situation changes and we know about Canadians, people are touched by cancer. It's not going away. We're incredibly important to people and I know that, I know there will be support there. And so we're just going to be reaching out to people to continue encouraging them to give what they can to get involved where they can to to help the people in their community who they know are living with cancer and and need extra help. And we're for the month of April, we've we're focusing on our online fundraising. We have a new digital daffodil that we're hoping that people are going to to share. It's the kind of thing you can do while you're socially isolated. And so we're going to be pioneering some new ways of getting support, but that's the same as every organization is doing that right now and just adapting as quickly as we possibly can.

MG: Sam, there are a lot of people who have lost their jobs and are wondering how they went to pay the rent in a couple of days time. There are still a lot of people who, this is a wealthy country, who have a lot of money, high net worth people. And one of the phrases that's been circulating in the midst of this and it might involve charities, it might involve people who perhaps could contribute to other facets of this recovery is where are the billionaires? Are they showing up with offers of support? And it doesn't just need to be billionaires, but people who would be able to afford to extend a helping hand in the midst of this.

SAMANTHA NUTT: I hope they will, Matt. Certainly I haven't had any banging down my door, but I'm fully available if anyone's interested in helping out in this way. The truth is, a lot of people who would normally give have seen their investment portfolio also decimated, and that includes high net worth individuals and foundations. And so right now what we're seeing is the opposite, that many are having to scale back and are able to give less right now than what we had seen previously. So I'm hoping that the more we can amplify this message and help I think Canadians to understand just how how threatened the sector is right now. And to Andrea's point, I mean, we contribute, not a lot of people know this, but we contribute to 8 percent of the Canadian GDP, the charitable sector. We employ 10 percent of working Canadians, 1.4 million people. So when we talk about packages to to rescue businesses and airlines and others, we need to consider the charitable sector as a significant contributor to the Canadian economy and to Canadian employment. And it makes good sense to keep that alive. And so whether it's private money or public money or if you give to a charity and you can afford to keep on giving despite these tough times, all of that is really, really appreciated.

MG: Andrea, what are you hearing from the major donor for the Canadian Cancer Society? There are many of them.

ANDREA SEALE: Yeah, there are many and some of them have been coming true for us, people who maybe were planning to come to an event or sponsor an event have allowed us to just keep the donation and even though the event has been cancelled. So we've seen some of that and we hope that that will continue. Absolutely.

MG: What would you say, couple of minutes left and I'll ask you both the same question. What would you say, Andrea, to people who feeling anxious, but they want to help people out as well? Are there ways that they can help a charity beyond donating money? And I'll start with you just briefly, Andrea.

ANDREA SEALE: Yeah, they can help by by getting getting everyone through this pandemic. So following the advice about social distancing is so important. It really helps that people who are most vulnerable right now and we came to the people that, you know in your life who who need extra help. Go online. There's so many great places online that you can connect with others and provide provide that sort of emotional support. We have something called counter connection that seei which is a an online community and people who are helping people. So people with cancer caregivers, people who've been through it, helping people that way is the perfect time to do that right now.

MG: Sam, last minute to you. What should, what could people do and what should they think about doing if they can?

SAMANTHA NUTT: I agree with everything Andrea said. And again, if people can afford to donate, then by all means, there are a lot of organizations that still need volunteer support even remotely and that's obviously welcome. And of course, the campaign, which has help the helpers and we're really hoping that Canadians who support our causes or whose lives have been touched by our causes will we'll speak up and let the government know that this issue matters to them.

MG: I think the stark nature of how you describe this and the high stakes of play are really going to be alarming to a lot of people, sam.

SAMANTHA NUTT: Well, and I wish we weren't in this position Matt. I've been doing this work now for 25 years and I've never seen such a significant threat to organizations and to the work. And right now, whether it's in Canada or around the world, people, especially vulnerable people, need us more than ever before and we want to be there for them.

MG: It's good to speak with you both. Thank you.

SAMANTHA NUTT: Thank you so much, Matt.

ANDREA SEALE: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Sam Nutt is the founder of War Child Canada. Andrea Seale is the chief executive director of the Canadian Cancer Society. Coming up in about 90 seconds time, we're going to do our best to answer the questions about COVID-19 that we got from kids. Grown ups, you'll want to hear this as well. They're saying at the end of last week, Tom Power was here saying that sometimes there are questions that we don't want to ask because we might think that they are an obvious question. There are no dumb questions. There are just questions. And we'll try and get some answers specifically to the questions that kids ask us. That's on its way. I'm Matt Galloway. This is an extended version of The Current. Stay with us.

[Music]

Ellen Page expresses frustration with 'absolutely horrifying' environmental racism in N.S.

Guests: Tom Power, Ellen Page

[Music]

MG: We're going to take a bit of a break from pandemic stories. Tom Power, host of Q, is here. Hello.

TOM POWER: Matt, you know, what I love about it, about this whole thing is that people are asking questions. I've never seen so many like town halls or experts with doctors, people just getting on and being able to ask what everyone. I feel like I want to keep this going after this is all over.

MG: Sometimes it's great to not know things and actually be open about the fact that you don't know and be willing to ask somebody else.

TOM POWER: I have to say, a couple of those questions, I was going I think I wanted to know that, but I was I maybe thought I should know it already. So thank you for the kids for asking them.

MG: People have been trying to find diversions from the pandemic. A lot of people watched the Tiger King on the weekend. People you watch.

TOM POWER: Yeah. Did you watch that? Did you watch the Tiger King?

MG: That's for another show. But the answer is, it's starting. You have been speaking with one of our great Canadian actors.

TOM POWER: The great Ellen Page. You might know her best from the movie Juno. You might know her earlier work as as a child actor in the Trailer Park Boys. Her new documentary is a really important political issue that we're facing in this country right now. It was kind of all around the world, but I really do like she focuses it on Canada. Environmental racism in Nova Scotia. Ellen's from Nova Scotia and we got to talk a little bit about what that's all about and why she wanted to use her stardom to make a movie about such a thing.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM POWER: Hi, Ellen.

ELLEN PAGE: Hey, how are you?

TOM POWER: Not too bad. I must say, I'm holding up, all things considered. How are you? How are you holding up?

ELLEN PAGE: Well you know, we're OK. My wife and I are here in New York, self-isolating of course, with our dogs. And, you know, we're doing good, mostly, of course, thinking of all those who don't have the ability to stay at home and who are in a much more vulnerable position.

TOM POWER: I want to talk a little bit about your film, which I got to see and it's it's incredibly powerful as I mentioned. Your film introduces, I think, to a lot of people who will be watching it, environmental racism. And you do a really great job of explaining it through a chart and a map of Nova Scotia showing where indigenous and black Nova Scotians typically live and precarious environmental sites. I mean, given that we're on the radio and where we can't have that map in front of us, can you give people listening to this an idea of what environmental racism is?

ELLEN PAGE: Yeah, sure. I mean, it's essentially the disproportionate placement of landfills, hazardous industry next to indigenous and black communities. And not only that, it's about the lack of government response to the impacts to the atrocities to the suffering and trauma, which is very horrific.

TOM POWER: I want to play a clip from the documentary. Take a listen to this.

[Clip from documentary "There's Something in the Water"]

TOM POWER: That is Louise Dalil, who lives in Shelburne, Nova Scotia. That to me was one of the more powerful moments of the film. She's been trying to get a community well put in. Can you explain what's going on there?

ELLEN PAGE: Yeah. So, um, essentially back in the 1940s, a dump was put in this area, Shelburne, predominantly black neighbourhood of Shelburne. And not only it was all surrounding garbage. Lavie waste. Hospital waste. Cetera put in this dump. It would also just be set afire. So this community was living for so long, which needless to say, is incredibly hazardous materials in the neighbourhood that were also being burnt. And they were just overcome by smoke coming up in their windows. And so for a long time, they stayed zero with contaminated water. You know, Anderson, this is a conversation of whether or not the dump is actually responsible for that. So they don't need to be seen with more tests and what have you. This dump is, you know, literally steps away from most of these homes. And you know it right now, you know, with, I guess, most of the wild contaminated neighbourhoods in the vast, vast, vast majority. And we have been working with other community members for a long, long, long time to get help office and to get support guides to what that community has suffered from because of the amount of sickness and loss and trauma and what have you.

TOM POWER: One of the parts of the film that I found the most impactful and maybe it's because I'm a white Newfoundlanders is at the very beginning of the film, you kind of set up, you know, Canada as this sort of place that's known for, you know, looking after its citizens and and peace and and, you know, and equality. And at one point, you said that you show kind of videos of yourself lying on the beach in Nova Scotia when you were a little girl. And you say, I you know, I thought that, too. That's kind of what I. That's what I assumed I was growing up in. What does it do to you to see in making this film what you didn't see growing up?

ELLEN PAGE: Yeah, I mean, it really needless to say, transformed so much of my idea of that province. I mean, of course, it's been some time that, you know, the reality of our history and the reality of treating indigenous and black people in Nova Scotia has become more clear, despite, you know, what we were learning as children in school. But this was just a whole a whole other level to know that I, you know, been in these places like Shelburne. I spent a lot of my childhood in Shelburne. I played in soccer tournaments, I, you know, around these areas and had no idea. And when you ,you know, it's one thing, needless to say, to researched all these things, but it was nothing like going to these communities and seeing the degree of suffering and trauma, that's really unimaginable. Families who have just. Lost so many families that can't grow old together sickness after six months after sickness, as people see in the film and beliefs, for example, is driving around the neighbourhood and pointing out the amount of cancer in all the households near the dump. And it was absolutely horrifying.

TOM POWER: You know, it brought to mind, I think what it means so much to me, as is because you were willing to admit that, you were willing to say like, you know, I didn't see these things and they were happening. And I think it's something that a lot of Canadians are reckoning with, a lot of white Canadians, especially a reckoning with this idea that, oh, we were we were told everything was fine. We were we were sort of wilfully blind to everything. And then you look at something like Idle No More or you look at the situation with Wet'suwet'en or the things that you're talking about in your film. It's it's an it's an awakening moment that's necessary. I thought that was, I thought that was powerful that you included yourself in that.

ELLEN PAGE: Yeah. I think like you're saying and I think the films about this, too, is just so much of the denial that Canada then, you know, purposely and anyways. For others, it's different in regards to, you know, genocide, residential schools or stress, racism. And it's incredibly important that. Know we talk about it, those who are unaware and their privilege has made them much aware. And it's our responsibility to educate ourselves. Complacency is a part of what causes the suffering.

TOM POWER: Has your documentary work changed the roles you'll take as it intersected with your acting work at all?

ELLEN PAGE: That's a good question. You know, I suppose they the worlds are quite separate from me. You know, as I said, like so much of my interest in terms of me being behind the camera and that filmmaking capacity is definitely, I think, more aimed at non-fiction. That's what I'm drawn to. And then, of course, as an actor, not doing my job gracefully. Doing my job job. I think for me, I feel like maybe just these issues are the kind of issues that obviously this film explores from such a part of what I'm interested to and that there could just be a natural gravitation to certain stories, but it's connected and separate in many ways. I'm not saying this very well. My apologies.

TOM POWER: No, you are. You're right. I think it's an interesting, I mean, I think it's an interesting idea. You know, where we're talking so much about essentially, you know, how whether we separate those two things from ourselves, whether they are both part of ourselves. And why does that mean, you know, and when someone like you, you know, being in a superhero movie or being in a comedy can also have value to make people feel connected, to make people feel entertained in the same way a documentary might say. I understand it's sort of it's a challenging sort of idea.

ELLEN PAGE: Yeah. No, I guess, you know, in a slightly more abstract way than you know, I mean, for sure. You know, even when I think of Umbrella Academy and that first season, so much to do really with, you know, childhood trauma. Quite frankly. You know, in all these individuals now as adults, you know, reckoning with that and coming to terms with that and such a huge part of their individual journeys in that season. So it's I think it's it's it's mostly a natural part of acting like in general, you know, you're going to find that scene. You're going to find that story through any job. Yes. Even if it's a complete comedy. So I suppose because it is you infusing yourself into a character probably just as natural, naturally happening in many ways, whether your problems are not perhaps.

TOM POWER: I want to thank you again for the documentary and I was watching it last night, perhaps with a naive optimism that maybe when we all come out of our homes, maybe when we all get through this together, when we mourn those who we've lost, we might be able to to work together a little bit more.

ELLEN PAGE: Yeah. I mean, let's not certainly hope. I mean, I do feel like the current situation we're in obviously a horrific and devastating one, I think for many who maybe weren't necessarily as aware, are seeing like the degree of inequality, the degree of how the system works for very few and similar to the documentary. It's reflecting how the most vulnerable are disproportionately suffering the most. It's black and indigenous communities that don't have clean water. So the advice aswh your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands, well, it's some can't or it's very difficult to. Or communities like we think of Louisa's community where she's driving around and starts pointing to all these households where individuals have cancer or in the community and first nations that has, you know, a lot of respiratory issues. It's all these communities suffering environmental racism that are, you know, going to be more vulnerable to the current pandemic we're facing. You know, so I think there's a lot of similar issues to this and yes, I hope through all this, through conversations about the damage of a system that's profit over people, that is seemingly by many and considering the economy more important than human lives. Hopefully those conversations will continue and perhaps in many ways there will potentially be a shift in consciousness and some movement for change.

TOM POWER: Ellen Page, thank you so much for your time.

ELLEN PAGE: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

TOM POWER: So that's a film, it's called There's Something in the Water. It just came out on Netflix.

MG: Have you finished Netflix yet?

TOM POWER: I didn't hit the end screen yet. No, I haven't beat the Bowzer of Netflix yet. Though I haven't enjoyed I have been enjoying the television. I don't normally get to watch. You know, I've been watching the show. McMillian's, if you see. Can I give you, can I give a recommendation?

MG: If you like, sure.

TOM POWER: There's this move to show out on Crave. Now it's an HBO documentary called McMillian's and it's about an FBI investigation of McDonald's Monopoly. And it's blowing my mind.

MG: Really?

TOM POWER: Yeah.

MG: Now, that's the kind of thing that perhaps you wouldn't have time otherwise to watch.

TOM POWER: No, I never would, you know, but it's spectacular and it's a great thing to take your mind off of everything.

MG: We watched Knives Out on the weekend.

TOM POWER: I hear it's great.

MG: It's fantastic. That's all I'll say. A great film. And Jamie Lee Curtis is spectacular.

TOM POWER: All right. I'll check it out.

MG: Tom Power, thank you.

TOM POWER: Matt Galloway, you take care of yourself. Stay healthy.

MG: Tom Power is the host of Q and here with us on the regular, this extended edition of The Current. That is it for the program for today. Reminder, you can catch up on anything that you missed through the CBC Listen app. Find it wherever you get your apps. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. Take care. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: Theme]

The Current Transcript for March 30, 2020

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Ontario physician says public health officials, media, should be reporting undetected cases of COVID-19

Brain Goldman answers questions from kids

Major COVID-19 stories across Canada this week

With more people staying at home, COVID-19 recession is first in history that’s service-driven – and women will be hit hardest, economists say

Why one gardener thinks old-time Victory Gardens could take root in this time of the coronavirus

As the number of COVID-19 cases in the US surges, Americans prepare for a tough new normal

Canadian charities say they need a bailout too

Ellen Page expresses frustration with 'absolutely horrifying' environmental racism in N.S.

Mar. 30, 2020 episode transcript

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