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The Current Transcript for June 3, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

When this war started, we realised it's our mission to prepare as the projects devoted to this war, to document this war, to highlight this war, to spread the information.

MATT GALLOWAY: Four months into the war. Ukrainians are asking what's been lost? Lives and buildings, certainly, but also culture to show the reality of war. A museum in Kyiv, it's displaying the things left behind by invading Russian troops. In 30 minutes, the war against culture in Ukraine and the fight to preserve cultural memory. Also this morning, remember travel?

SOUNDCLIP

I mean, I love coming into a town where I'm disoriented. And that's one of my I think one of my fortes is being disoriented and not speaking the language and then writing it up. So people who follow me can be oriented smarter.

MG: Through his books, tours and public TV shows, Rick Steves has been the guide for millions of people as they journey through Europe. After a long break, marooned at home during the pandemic, he's back on the road. In an hour, Rick Steves on what he missed about travelling and what he says to those in cities like Barcelona, Rome and Venice who love the pandemic break from all us, tourists. We begin, though, with the Ontario election for more years. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Doug Ford’s Progressive Conservatives win another majority government in Ontario

Guests: Karl Baldauf, Marieke Walsh, Vassy Kapelos

SOUNDCLIP

We started it as an idea. A new approach to politics. Thanks to you, what started as an idea turned into a movement, a political movement that changed the landscape of this province in this country forever. Together, we're re-imagining our party. We're re-imagining our province. And tonight we have changed what it means to be a progressive conservative in Ontario.

[Cheers]

Friends, it's no longer about being part of the blue, the red, the orange or green team. It's about recognising that there's so much that unites us. This is my proudest achievement as a leader of this party building a new coalition, expanding our base, creating a more inclusive party where everyone matters.

MG: Well, it was never really in doubt. But still, the outcome of the Ontario election was a surprise. Doug Ford's progressive conservative government was re-elected with an increased majority. That is rare for a governing party in Canada. The leaders of the NDP and the Liberals both stepped down. And so the morning after. What are the lessons for the province and for this country? Karl Baldauf is a former senior member of the Ford administration. He's now a vice president at public affairs firm McMillan Vantage. Karl. Good morning.

KARL BALDAUF: Good morning.

MG: This election was supposed to be a referendum on Doug Ford's leadership and how he handled the pandemic by many accounts. It wasn't great. He faced an onslaught of anger and criticism for the crisis in long term care, homes and hospitals. His lockdown measures were unpopular within his own party. He was booed at the Raptors victory parade. How did he win? How do you explain these results?

KARL BALDAUF: Well, I mean, it's a it's an impressive victory for the premier and one that he and the whole Conservative Party in Ontario has to be very proud of. But look, you know, when we think back to that event in 2019 and the Conservatives first budget in 2019, followed by the resignation of the Premier's chief of staff at the time, I think in that moment the Premier took stock of where he was and what kind of premier he wanted to be. The first Conservative budget, after 15 years of a Liberal government, a left of centre Liberal government was never going to be easy. But I think more importantly for Ford he realised that he wanted to rise above the type of circus he had he had seen at City Hall that he had been a part of five years earlier. He did not want that to be his legacy or the legacy of his family. And so he built a positive and inclusive vision rather than digging into a fervently right wing ideology. He chose a different path. And I think, you know, the pandemic for him represented an opportunity to put that vision on display. You know, you make a comment about some of the challenges he faced. And that's true. But by and large, Ontarians have just decided that they want to look toward the future. And Doug Ford has given them a vision for the future and one that last night they they embraced.

MG: Let me ask you just about the pandemic, though. I mean, why wasn't his handling of COVID 19 a bigger factor in this? He talked about building an iron ring around long term care. That didn't happen. The schools in Ontario were closed longer than any other jurisdiction in North America. Why wasn't that a factor in this election?

KARL BALDAUF: Well, you have to ask Andrea Horvath and Steven Del Duca that question just as much as you have to ask Doug Ford that question. When you're challenging an incumbent government, by and large, the population will go with the devil they know. Unless you are able to stoke embers of change and draw contrasts that emphasise why the existing government has failed, that requires going negative. And if you look at the first few weeks of the campaign, it was essentially a game of chicken where both the NDP and Liberals refused to go hard on the negatives for fear of appearing to be negative themselves. They wanted the other to do it. And so this game of chicken failed for both of them, because what happened was Ford was able to focus on his narrative. I think back to the 2011 election when Tim Hudak had to go very hard because then as now, Andrea Horvath refused to draw the contrast that were necessary to enable a change election. And because of that, we were able to successfully bring the Liberals of that time down to a minority. But in this instance, neither opposition party went hard on the negatives and they paid for that.

MG: You just heard in his victory speech Doug Ford talking about, you know, how he has changed the Progressive Conservative Party. What does that mean?

KARL BALDAUF: Well, you know, it's an interesting line. I don't know that this is an anomaly as much as it is a return to form. I think what you're seeing is a progressive conservative party operating on all cylinders. This is the return of the big blue machine. And I had heard because I'm younger, that my parents talk so much about the 43 years of unabated progressive conservative governments in this province through premiers Frost, Robarts, Davis and Miller. Doug Ford has regained that position and trust, and this is a unique beast in Canadian politics, the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party.

MG: But is he a conservative? Is he a populist? I mean, people have been trying to figure this out over the course of his first term, and I think they're trying to figure it out now in the wake of this election.

MG: I mean, having worked with Doug Ford, having seen his vision unfold from within government, you see how he puts so much focus on taking cost out of government, internal efficiencies. He's a huge proponent for the Lean Six Sigma management style that was popularised by Toyota. So, you know, I do see conservative fundamentals at play in terms of how he conducts himself as premier, but he has demonstrated that a conservative, progressive conservative party under his leadership will not be afraid of spending and investing in order to stir up prosperity. And that reflects, I think, for Ontarians, ah, right now they want to see important investments. They're getting in their cars again. They're returning to commuting to work. Suddenly, infrastructure investments are once again very important. You know, where we do talk about the pandemic, the Premier is able to emphasise investments in hospitals, long term care investments that are forthcoming. Right. And so he's not afraid of making those expenditures. And I have seen, you know, core conservative fundamentals in how he operates and conducts himself as premier. So once again, I think the Ontarians public population have said that's the type of style that's in place of inclusive government that reflects where we are on the political spectrum. And they rewarded him last night.

MG: Just a couple of quick questions before I let you go. One is and you've hinted at this, but is he actually a different leader than he was four years ago when you think of the chaos of that first year in government?

KARL BALDAUF: You know, I don't think- I think he's the same man by and large, but I think he's learnt from experience and I was able to witness a maturation of an individual that wanted to be absolutely becoming of the office in which he held. He has grown in this role and he cares deeply about his legacy. And so I would say, yes, 2018 was perhaps a change election, but 2022 is fully Doug Ford's to enjoy as a reaffirmation of the vision that he has brought to this role. And I think, as I say, a return to form for the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party and its natural place as, frankly, a natural governing party in this province.

MG: So just finally, very briefly, what is the message, do you think, to other conservatives in other parts of this country?

KARL BALDAUF: Take a close look. You know, I did say in Ontario, progressive conservatives are perhaps an anomaly in this in this country. Alberta conservatives are different than those who maybe espoused conservative values in Quebec. And so, you know, you cannot take this as a template for what will lead to success at a national level. But it is certainly something that must be studied and analysed by those vying for the leadership of the federal conservative Party.

MG: Karl, good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

KARL BALDAUF: Take care.

MG: Karl Baldauf is the vice president of public affairs at Macmillan Vantage. Former chief of staff to Ontario's finance minister. Vassy Kapelos is the host of Power and Politics on CBC News Network. Marieke Walsh, political reporter at the Globe and Mail. Good morning to you both.

MARIEKE WASLH: Good morning.

VASSY KAPELOS: Good Morning.

MG: Marieke. We'll talk about the broader implications that we were just speaking about when it comes to Doug Ford's victory. But he now has another majority government. Just like a year ago, he was facing calls to resign because of his handling of the pandemic. What changed?

MARIEKE WASLH: I think what you've seen from the Premier is a marked change in the discipline that they've approached governance since. I think you're referring to that April press conference when they were going to put police officers monitoring parks and those kinds of things. I think from that apology onwards, you saw a different approach in the management of the pandemic. Much more focus around sticking to a plan and laying out a roadmap to managing the different waves of the pandemic. And I think you also saw that he was able to be much more disciplined. He had a strong campaign team around him, and he was able to acquit himself. To be honest, as many incumbent governments across Canada have, that they have not been punished for their handling of the pandemic. And that stayed true last night.

MG: Vassy, what do you make of that? I mean, he faced criticism from all sides, including from his own party, for his response to the pandemic. Why is it that most voters seem to have put his handling of that crisis behind them.

VASSY KAPELOS: Because he apologised, at different times, something other premiers didn't do, especially I'm thinking, for example, of Jason Kenney who was equally criticised, if not more of it, for his handling of the pandemic. He never came out like a reference there and said I didn't do the right thing here, I'm going to change course. And Doug Ford did do that. And I think that voters are more forgiving than maybe we expect them to be. I think the acknowledgement that, you know, a leader is human and can make a mistake is one that resonated. And I think then as long as he was able to sort of follow that with a better plan and an actual plan and less of the like, I'm going to shut down playgrounds and not acknowledge the issues with long term care. Like as long as the pivot occurred after the apology, it looks like it sort of diminished or deflated the anger towards him.

MG: And so if it wasn't about the pandemic fashion, what do you think this re-election says about what a majority of voters care about? What are the issues that they were driven by?

VASSY KAPELOS: I think the main issue, if there is a single issue kind of at the forefront of all of this, was the cost of living. It is the issue of affordability. The parties all had different ways of kind of addressing that. But right off the bat, with that pre campaign budget, the the Conservatives were able to say, hey, we're going to this line of like putting money back in your pocket. I think that did resonate to a certain degree. And I think, you know, it's hard not to talk about what mattered in the election without talking about the depress turnout and how low it was. I don't think for many Ontarians the election did end up, and it breaks my heart to say it, did end up mattering.

MG: Just over just over 40%, the lowest voter turnout at this point in Ontario history.

VASSY KAPELOS: Yeah, it kind of like just, you know, like I said, it really breaks my heart to hear that. But but I do think that that ultimately favoured Ford and certainly the incumbents in this case. And I think if there is one thing that they were motivated by, it is the cost of living. It is sort of the state of the economy. And that seemed to favour Ford and the policies and platform he put forward.

MG: Marieke, you're nodding.

MARIEKE WASLH: Yeah, I think she's right on the money. The polling, the data throughout the election showed that the most important thing for voters was looking forward and looking at the economic uncertainty they face and the pocketbook pressures they face. And they tied Doug Ford and the progressive conservatives as being the best able to manage that issue. Yes, there were questions around the pandemic, but voters appear to want to look forward. They want to put the pandemic behind them. And yes, health care is so important. Yes, that was tied to the NDP in terms of their ability to manage that from the data. But that wasn't the top issue going forward.

MG: How much of the turnout do you think, or at the very least, the result has to do with the relationship between Doug Ford and Justin Trudeau, the prime minister. Relationship that was pointed in years past and we saw it just in seem like the days before this election was called Justin Trudeau and Doug Ford working together on a childcare announcement.

MARIEKE WASLH: Childcare announcement, auto manufacturing investments, Matt. And those were billions of dollars worth of spending over several weeks and months, the last one being just days before Doug Ford triggered the election campaign. And then we saw no comment from the federal liberals really in terms of a message from the Prime Minister's office, from the Prime minister, from Deputy Minister Chrystia Freeland about their provincial cousins. So certainly there's been a dramatic shift in the approach between Queen's Park in Toronto and Parliament Hill in Ottawa in how they will navigate this really important relationship because the voters for Doug Ford are the voters for Justin Trudeau. And I think you see that, especially in that critical swath of seats around Toronto, the 905, Brampton, York Peel, all of those are blue today. And that's where the Liberals also have. So they see that they have overlap and I think they've decided that it's better just to work together. But certainly an almost tacit endorsement from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Doug Ford and a dramatic change from 2018 when Doug Ford said he was coming for Trudeau next and 2019 where Justin Trudeau spent more time attacking Doug Ford on the campaign trail than Andrew Scheer.

MG: So Doug Ford has a huge majority. I mean, the slogan for this campaign was Get it done. What do you expect in the next four years?

MARIEKE WASLH: Well, what will be interesting is they will have to barr another pandemic crises knock wood, they will have to deliver on this mandate in a way that the pandemic disrupted their first mandate. But I think you see that focus, as Vashti talked about, about those pocketbook issues, about making sure there is more money in voters pockets, doing things like building the ring of fire, trying to improve mining of critical minerals, trying to improve the auto manufacturing sector. All of those are blue collar jobs that Doug Ford and the progressive conservatives really courted in this election, in this campaign leading up. And we see that with the union endorsements that they got. And that's also where you see the overlap with the mandate from the federal government to do work.

MG: Ashley What should other provincial conservative leaders take from Ford's strategy, but also what he presented to voters?

VASSY KAPELOS: Well, I'm pretty sure most of them are sitting here being pretty jealous right now of what they just witnessed because their fate has not, in all instances been the same. I actually am hesitant to say that conservative leaders in other provinces can take a whole lot, only because the political dynamic in Ontario and this is the point Carl made where the federal case is concerned as well. The political dynamic in Ontario is a bit different and always has been than other provinces. I spent years working in Alberta and I can tell you a conservative in Alberta is not necessarily ideologically perfectly aligned or even close to being perfectly aligned with a conservative in this province in Ontario. And so I'm not sure there are a lot of lessons other than the one that I pointed out at the beginning, which is sometimes a little humility from a politician can go a long way. And that seems to be something that has been forgotten, particularly, I think, in the last decade.

MG: Okay. What about what about those then who want to lead the federal Conservative Party?

VASSY KAPELOS: That's the big one. Right. Because I also took the point from from Karl that this is a much more complicated job, because how do you appeal to those who vote for Doug Ford and those who vote for Jason Kenney and then decide he's not conservative enough? Right. There is a massive political spectrum at bay for you. I think strategically, though, it does require that you take, if you're running to be the federal conservative leader, a very close look at what Doug Ford was able to accomplish because where he won this election was in the nine or five. Why? Because people who voted for Justin Trudeau, who did not vote for Erin O'Toole or Andrew Scheer in the last election, decided that they could vote for Doug Ford. Where is the disconnect there? And will any of the candidates who are striving to be leader of the federal party be able to resonate in that area of the nine five? Because, like it or not, in the rest of Canada, you ultimately can win the entire election if you're able to win that section of this province. And so far, federal conservatives have not been able to do what Doug Ford managed to do resoundingly last night.

MG: So what do you think the lesson is for those who want to lead the federal Conservative Party?

MARIEKE WASLH: It certainly does. You know, we're in the middle of another race. It looks when you look at Doug Ford's campaign, it's very different, for example, than front runner Pierre Polya.

MG: Who yesterday announced a private member's bill to...

MARIEKE WASLH: End all vaccine mandate.

MG: Vaccine mandates in the future.

MARIEKE WASLH: Exactly. And so part of it is the fact that right now they are playing to their base, not to a general election, but it absolutely does need a calculation. And it might be an interesting moment with today's the deadline for memberships for the Conservative leadership race federally. It's a critical day and it might give some some voters in that party pause to wonder who actually is electable in a general election because they want a true blue conservative. They want somebody that they can relate to, but they also want to win an election. And so that might take a rethink. I also, though, think there are lessons here for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and the federal Liberals. Doug Ford got more than 40% of the popular vote. Justin Trudeau has eked out a government, a minority government with low thirties.

MG: So what would the lesson be?

MARIEKE WASLH: Well, it's it's a it's more a question of I think that's what they need to study, what they need to look at. How is it that Doug Ford, who, as you pointed out, has been so unpopular in past years, was able to secure another mandate and grow it at the expense of the liberals? The liberals do not have official party status for the second time in a row now in Ontario. That is a dramatic shift that I think, yes, there are differences between the federal and provincial, but it speaks, I think, to a change and a more focus on personality over the party. And I think that changes our electorate and how our elections have.

MG: That's just about out of time. Is that a cautionary tale for the federal Liberals and the federal NDP, perhaps.

VASSY KAPELOS: Maybe. I don't know. I'm not 100% sure. I'm not. I think it's more strategy. I think it involves the 905. I feel like there was a period in which Justin Trudeau was the brand of the Liberal Party and that worked to their advantage and then it stopped working to their advantage. So what that means for the future of that party, I'm not sure. I do think it means that the bromance continues for for a little while longer between Justin Trudeau and Doug Ford, which is not something I would have been saying to you four years ago.

MG: And you just wonder whether those who are leading the federal who want to lead the federal Conservative Party will try to get Doug Ford on their side given his resounding success.

VASSY KAPELOS: You know what? I wonder if Doug Ford will go there, because he certainly wouldn't during the campaign. I don't know. You could if you look at the platforms being put forward, as you mentioned, the you know, the PMB around vaccine mandates yesterday, it's so diametrically opposed to I mean, Doug Ford was kicking people out of his party for not being vaccinated. There are two different types of conservatives. So rectifying that it's certainly going to be something to watch in the federal race, certainly.

MG: Thank you both. Appreciate it.

MARIEKE WASLH: Thank you.

VASSY KAPELOS: Thank you.

MG: Vassy Kapelos, host of Power and Politics, Marieke Walsh, a political reporter at the Globe and Mail. Well, CBC News is next. And then we'll talk about culture and the preservation of culture in the face of war. In a museum in Ukraine, artefacts are on display from the ongoing Russian invasion, things the troops left behind. We'll talk about how that exhibition is designed to preserve history as history unfolds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in six minutes. Stick around.

Kyiv museum documents Russia-Ukraine war through objects abandoned by Russian forces

Guests: Dymtro Hainetdinov, Damian Koropeckyj

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, international travel is back in a big way and many Canadians planning summer getaways. But things certainly changed since the pandemic began. In just under 30 minutes, the travel writer Rick Steves on reorienting ourselves. But first, preserving the artefacts of war in the midst of battle.

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MG: When Russian forces abandoned the siege of Kyiv, they left things behind their boots, bullet casings, handwritten notes documenting casualties left in, burned out buildings. Together, these things tell the story of what happened when Russian forces entered places like ere pin or borrowed the anchor. And they are now on display in Kyiv's World War Two Museum, which is open to visitors in an exhibit called Ukraine Crucifixion. Dmytro Hainetdinov is the head of the museum's education department, and we have reached him at the exhibit two Metro. Hello.

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Hello.

MG: I want to talk about this exhibit in a moment, but tell me about life in Kyiv right now. This was a war zone just a few weeks ago. What are the streets of your city feel like today?

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Fortunately, today it is sad and it is impossible to compare the atmosphere in the city with what happened in March or in February, because right now the citizens feel much more safety. The Russian army is not standing on the edge of the city, and the shelling of the shelling of the city is not is not conducted every day. Of course, every day we have our Syrians. And a few weeks ago, we also had the missile attack. However, many residents of the city feel a relative safety and they the many of those who fled from the war in the early days, they returned to Kyiv. They feel much more stability in the situation.

MG: And you're able to open your museum. You're in the museum now. Tell me about the exhibit and what's on display in the room that you're standing in right now.

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Right now, I am standing in the introductory room of our exhibition, Ukraine Crucifixion. Since the beginning of the Russian aggression in 2014, we have prepared a number of projects devoted to the current Russian aggression. And when this war started, we realised it's our mission to prepare as a project devoted to this war, to document this war, to highlight this war, to spread the information. Right now, in the middle of the hall where I am standing, there is an installation consisting of the Russian army boots. The installation is made in the shape of Red Star, the symbol of the Russian army. And the Russian boots were collected in numerous settlements of the region. In fact, the first chapter of this exhibition tells only about the army of the occupiers the ammunition, the equipment, the weapon is displayed for the visitors, as well as a sample of their propaganda and the videos with the statements of the Russian officials, as well as the expressions of the ordinary people who unfortunately widely support the aggression against our state.

MG: These are the actual boots from Russian soldiers that were part of the invasion.

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Yes, yes. Every scene is authentic.

MG: I want you if it's possible to get a little bit of a tour of the next room, do you mind walking into the next room and telling us what you see there?

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Okay, great. So why live in this room? The first room I see is a shoebox with the Russian artefacts displayed. Instead of the normal show boxes, we used the real containers of the Russian book missiles. This is a surface to air missile, the proposal for destruction of the air targets. And we found these containers for the missiles in Germany region. It is north east from Kyiv. And right now I am entering the room number two and I see all the photos of the destructions in the settlements of Kyiv and Cherney regions on the wall. And the hall is full, filled with installations made of the Russian weapons. For example, I can see here the cluster bombs used by the Russian army to destroy the settlements and to inflict severe casualties on the Ukrainian population. Right near my feet, I can see an installation made of the mortar mines and the broken windows of the from the Ukrainian house. This mortar reminds four found in the small village where the Russians also committed the atrocities against the civilians. And now I am approaching the book missile itself. This weapon book became notorious in 2014 when the Russian army used the book to destroy the MH-17 flight when almost 300 persons died on the on the wall. The videos of the fights in Kiev region are projected and this is a message to Ukrainian people and to the foreign visitors of exhibition that there was a huge role of the resistance, of the armed resistance of the civil resistance in breaking the Russian plans to. Ukraine's sovereignty. So now I am returning back to the first room, and I can I can see the helicopter pilots helmets, which belonged to the Russian pilot who took part in the massive helicopter attack on hostile Kiev irk region on the first day of the war when the Russian army planned to land the huge forces in hostile and then to move this forces on. You also I see here the unique map used by the Russian subversive group in Kiev in the eastern part of the city, and this group planned special operations. This is a diversion against Ukrainian forces and that there are different marks on the map, including police stations, administrative buildings and metro stations.

MG: I know that you don't have cell service in the basement, so you can't go down there. But describe that's a really important part of this exhibition. What is in the room that's downstairs in your gallery?

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: We visited the military town of [unintelligible], which is a residential area where the families of the Ukrainian military personnel lived. And the Russians occupied this area on the second day of their offensive. And the people who lived there stayed under the occupation during 37 days. They lived in unimaginable difficulties. It was heavily destroyed. And people had to live in the basements, in without electricity, without heating. They evacuated the items from to the basements to our exhibition, and we recreated the bomb shelter from installment in the smallest details, even recreated the order in which the jars with food, for example, or the blankets were set in the real bomb shelter when we came to this place. And also, it's interesting that we tried to translate even the smell from this places and we took even food, even the remains of food from the real bomb shelters in a customer to the basement to we would like to our visitors to feel all the difficulties.

MG: That's incredible. Why I mean, why was it important for you to recreate this in such detail?

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Truly, we would like to demonstrate the real consequences of war right now in in Kiev. There are many different groups of people coming to our exhibition. There are some people who said that they experience that very similar things. But at the same time, many people fled from the war at the beginning and unfortunately they haven't seen all of this horror. And that is why we would like to show this people what was the face of the war, what it is, what how ugly was this face?

MG: You were part of the expeditions that went out to gather the material for this exhibition. What was that like? What was it like to be part of that?

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Of course, when we visited all these places, it had a very strong emotional impact on me and as well as some the other members of the exhibition, because we saw many destroyed settlements. We saw how the ordinary life of the ordinary people was ruthlessly destroyed. We saw the dismantling of the rubbles under which, in [unintelligible], for example, the bodies of the dead people were found later. And so I saw this military town or hostel may be it was the hardest emotional impact on me because I saw as I absolutely dead place, on the three persons of this area refused to be evacuated and as a people were evacuated to safer regions of Ukraine and only destroyed ruins of the houses was there. And of course, we had heavy emotions after this. But I assume as well as many of my colleagues want to accumulate this emotions, these impressions into our profession so that we can work in the into the information sphere of Ukraine now and to pay more attention to this war, because right now, silence is the worst Ukrainian enemy. So as soon as this war could be silenced, Russia could have the unlimited resources and the possibilities to continue its violence.

MG: What about seeing the items in the collection that belonged to Russian forces? What does it mean to you as a Ukrainian to see those items in this gallery?

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Of course, as well as other people, not only the museum researchers, but also ordinary visitors. I had the question, what was the driving force of this people? What was the motivation for them to commit the atrocities? Because we know that the attitude to the Ukrainian population was very cool in many locations. And probably not all the materials can explain this but this is one particular exhibit which can show us the emotions of the Russian officer as well. In the village of Katerina North from Kyiv in the local secondary school, the diary of the Russian officer, the handwritten diary was found, and this man, who seems to be rather well-educated, describes his personal approach of this war. And he is not, is to the paradoxes, because on the one hand he wrote about that he was unsure that the invasion was was right, was was good idea. He said that he could not adapt to the thought that here this officer is in the in the another state. But then we saw the information about the interrogation of civilians who were called the Nazis. We understand what followed by what followed this interrogation. And to really in this part, we can see the image of the invaders army. And it's very important for Ukrainians as well, I think, to personify this army, to know this occupier and to understand that these are not just the abstract enemies. There's a real people. And those who committed crimes had to have to be punished to have to be brought to responsibility.

MG: Just finally, this is an exhibition about a war that's not in the past. This is a war that's still happening. And you have visitors who are Ukrainian who are coming. You mentioned foreign visitors as well. What are you hoping when they leave the gallery? What are you hoping that they're thinking about?

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: We understand that the personal approach of these people can depend on their previous experience. For example, I remember the people who said that, you know, it's very difficult for us to enter this exhibition because we are, for example, from Kharkiv, where the artillery firing continued without stoppage. And we respect this position of the people because they had very difficult, difficult stories. But of course, we have the ideas which we want to promote amongst the society. First of all, the idea or of understanding. It is necessary to understand that the dangerous clothes that right now the horrors of war are underway in east Ukraine and south Ukraine. And right now, people are dying. That is why we want to consolidate the support of the Ukrainian resistance. It is necessary as well inside the country as well as outside the country. And that was the most common question from the foreign media was, was it coincidence that this exhibition was opened on May eight? It was it was purpose to date, because we would like to demonstrate that ghosts of World War Two are very close and we have the aggressive power personified in the Russian leadership and in the Russian ideology, which is widely spread amongst the Russian society. And this power want to restore the international order of the 19 soldiers, the old rules of the game. And if they manage to do this, it can be a step to the next disaster. And that is why we remind the people about the historical responsibility of the whole mankind to prevent this.

MG: It sounds fascinating, and it must be really powerful as Ukrainian to see this in the midst of a war unfolding. I'm glad to speak with you about it, too, Metro. Thank you very much for taking us through your exhibition.

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Thank you. It was a pleasure for me. And greetings to all your Canadian listeners.

MG: Take care of yourself. Bye bye.

DMYTRO HAINETDINOV: Thank you.

MG: Dmytro Hainetdinov is the head of the Kyiv World War Two Museums Education Department. In this war, museums like the one Dmytro is speaking from, have been under threat, and many curators have moved priceless collections out of the country to protect them from shelling. My next guest says this is all part of an attempt to control the narrative of history. Damian Koropeckyj is the senior analyst and Ukraine team lead at the Cultural Heritage Monitoring Lab in Virginia. Damian, good morning to you.

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for being here. Can you just give me a definition so that we have a sense as to what we're talking about to you? What does cultural heritage mean?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: So cultural heritage is a you know, it can be tangible and intangible, but these are items that tie a group to their identity and to the places where they live. So that can certainly be pretty expansive. You know, you're looking at personal items, but you're also looking at those landmarks that, you know, any person in a small town may recognise. Houses of worship, monuments, things like that that really tie you to these places and to these ideas.

MG: And so in a war, why would those things? Museums, art galleries, the things that tie you to a place, why would those things be targeted?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: I'll draw it to this conflict. You know, when you have a power who is literally telling you that you do not exist as a people, that becomes an easy target to then erase that memory or that identity, these places where these collection agencies are telling stories.

MG: You've been monitoring this through your lab. How much of that cultural heritage has been targeted in Ukraine since the war started? Not in February, but in 2014?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: So I'll go I'll speak to what's occurred since February 24th. Today, we've seen at least 450 potential impacts on cultural heritage. So that ranges from archaeological sites to houses of worship, monuments, museums, libraries, cemeteries, other cultural elements like that, cultural property.

MG: You surprised by that?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: I'm not surprised. You know, I can't speak too much to intention, but I'll say generally that this is the the Russian way of war has it's always been conducted. And, you know, when you see these attacks on dense urban environments, you're certainly going to see impacts of cultural heritage.

MG: I've spoken with people in Ukraine who are working to protect that in the midst of war, sandbagging, statues, monuments, moving pieces around, moving curators around so that they're safe. I mean, as you understand it, what's the scale of work that's being done in the country to protect that cultural heritage?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: It's a 24 seven effort, you know, families in contact with folks on the ground, you know, these cultural first responders through our partnership with the Smithsonian Cultural Rescue Initiative. And it is really inspiring that so many individuals are risking their safety to to rescue these objects.

MG: Cultural first responders is a really powerful turn of phrase.

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: Yeah, it's a visceral experience. I'm not there. This is a remote project. But, you know, I was actually in Kyiv for Victory Day in 2014. You know, I've seen the power that that culture has in this conflict in particular. So certainly, you know, that's it is a real war in all senses going on, obviously, and people are experiencing that every day.

MG: The exhibits that we were hearing about is interesting, in part because it's in the World War two museum. What do you make of that positioning of putting this exhibition in the midst of war in a World War two museum?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: It's obviously so powerful. I mean, firstly, you've seen since the conflict began in 2014, I mean, even in the beginning of this conflict, this narrative that the new Ukrainian government was a continuation of World War Two Nazi governance, the return of fascism. You've seen also on the Ukrainian side this large campaign to take down symbols of the Soviet Union. And that's actually included discussions about the large monument that's sitting on top of that World War Two museum. So to be able to answer some of these Russian narratives that are playing out is practical and necessary.

MG: In this exhibition that Dmytro was talking about, one of the things that that is making it stand out is that it uses physical objects as proof of the war as it unfolds. How important is it to have those physical objects of war from your perspective as an archaeologist?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: I mean, a big part of archaeology is trying to understand the life of an object from before it was even created, up to the point where we find it in the ground. So to see how the meaning of that object is changing. It's particularly powerful to see that being done with these weapons of war and these tools of power. I mean, that's a story that goes back centuries in these conflicts, you know, almost trophies, but certainly telling a different story. In this context.

MG: What do you mean, trophies?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: So obviously, these are, you know, objects that had been found after the victory in these areas in Ukraine. And so with that, the museum obviously has an opportunity to tell a different story with these objects.

MG: So when you have burned out Russian tanks that have, you know, been displayed on the streets of Kiev, what is the purpose of that? What what narrative does that further?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: You know, there's this very pragmatic understanding and Ukraine, at least that I've seen. You know, they're very realistic that it's it's necessary to fight, obviously. It's not even a question that they're going to continue fighting these battles. I think it certainly symbolises that, but it also just makes it so real, as Dmytro mentioned, for other individuals who have not yet witnessed the conflict firsthand to see just how real that is.

MG: Can you talk more about the way that this is being used, the war itself, but also the objects of war and the artefacts war being used by both sides to further a narrative? I mean, we're seeing this from the Russian perspective when it comes to, as you said, the ties to the Second World War. This whole idea of denazification from the Ukrainian perspective, they're telling a story about resistance as well. How is that playing out more broadly as the war unfolds?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: I think, again, we have to look back to how the war has unfolded since 2014. You know, the Russian government in these occupied areas has undertaken these massive archaeological excavations to pick not only, you know, they're not only taking this modern material, but they're also excavating these archaeological sites and turning that into that larger narrative that this territory has been Russian from the beginning. And you can just see step by step how the Ukrainians are fighting back with their own identity and emphasising the fact that they belong there and that's their territory.

MG: Tell me about the Alley of Angels in Donetsk. What is that?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: So the Alley of Angels is a memorial complex in Donetsk that started construction. Construction not long after the conflict began in 2014. It's dedicated to children who were killed in the Donbass region in that conflict. And it includes a couple of different elements. So it's got a plaque listing the names of these children that were killed. And it also has a very striking composition, you know, a small boy protecting his sister, which they've modelled after a child who was killed in that conflict. And, you know, it's a huge element. It has a huge physical presence. It's in the main part, but it's also become its own. I don't want to call it a meme, but it's become its own narrative in social media. So I witnessed in the early days after February 24th that a lot of individuals were tweeting photos of the monument itself as a justification for the war, you know, trying to justify this as a Russian intervention in genocide and the dumbasses they called it. So it's become kind of this reciprocal legitimising that you see between what's going on on social media and with this monument in the physical realm.

MG: It speaks to the nature of having a war in 2022, in a time of social media where there is a physical war, a brutal war that is underway, where people are dying, but there is also an air war that exists online.

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: Yeah, I think it's so interesting that, you know, with all of these Russian objects that they're displaying in the World War two museum, they're displaying that in conjunction with this messaging from the Russian government and other apparatuses with these narratives that they're displaying is propaganda. I think that's a really powerful way to show that this has real world consequences, these information weapons.

MG: And again, watching this remotely in Virginia, what is that like for you personally to see this?

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: Speaking personally for a moment know I do have friends and family in Ukraine. So it's certainly it's certainly very powerful to see what's unfolding over there. But you know what? It strengthens the resolve. We worked in other we've assisted other organisations, in other conflicts, in natural disaster. And so at the lab, you know, we always approach it with giving as much as we can, whatever help they need.

MG: Damian, it's great to speak with you about this. Thank you very much.

DAMIAN KOROPECKYJ: Thank you so much.

MG: Damien Kotowski is a field archaeologist and senior analyst and Ukraine team lead at the Cultural Heritage Monitoring Lab in Virginia. Well, coming up after your regional update, are you excited about maybe travelling this summer, maybe heading to Europe? We will speak with the guidebook author Rick Steves. He's just back from Europe. He is euphoric and he has some advice on travelling, what's changed and how we should think about those who are in the cities that we're visiting. Rick Steves coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

Rick Steves on the euphoria of returning to travel

Guests: Rick Steves

MG: Hi. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Be out early, be out late, go to the less famous places and treat them like the famous places. Some pretty good travel advice from Rick Steves and he should know. Rick Steves is a professional traveller as well as a TV and radio host. For many, he doesn't just write travel guidebooks. He writes the travel guidebooks. And as you can imagine, the pandemic kept him uncharacteristically close to home. He has just returned, though, from a 12 city, 40 day trip to Europe, and he has some tips for those of us looking forward to travelling once again this summer. Rick, good morning.

RICK STEVES: Good morning, Matt. Nice to be with you.

MG: Great to have you. How did it feel to be back in Europe?

RICK STEVES: You know, for travellers it just feels euphoric. It's not overstating it. You just feel like a bird who's been in a cage for a couple of years and then bam, you can fly again.

MG: Let me talk to you about being in the cage. I'm going to put you in a time machine. In early 2020, COVID was spreading. People were trying to figure out what to do. You wrote this on your Facebook page. This is from the 28th of February, 2020: "As for me, I'm booked on a flight to Istanbul on the 12th of April. At this point, I haven't even thought about cancelling. I'm thinking positive and hoping to make my trip. If things change between now and then, I'll do the responsible thing. But for now, Easter Sunday is for me. Wheels up." You did the responsible thing and you ended up not travelling at all. Is that the most time that you have spent at home in recent memory over the course of this pandemic?

RICK STEVES: Well, yeah, that's I spend 100 days a year in Europe. I've done that ever since I graduated from high school back in the mid-seventies. And it's just a routine for me. I spend April and May in the Mediterranean area, and I go home and and collect my thoughts in June. And then I go back to Europe in July and August for north of the Alps. That's how I do my research. That's how I update my guidebooks and get ideas for my TV shows and organise the, you know, the bus tours that we take around Europe. And I was in such a routine. And, you know, I don't I can't remember when I was home for my birthday in mid-May. I'm always in Europe. I get a fax from my office saying, Happy Birthday. And this year I was home for my birthday. Of course, nobody could get together. But it was very odd to be home. And you know, I've heard Seattle is nice in the summer and I learnt it is.

MG: I've heard. What is a man who travels for a living do when he can't travel?

RICK STEVES: Well, this was really for me a sort of a blessing because I'm so focussed and one minded about my travel. I just love it. No regrets about that. But of course there are other, other, you know, dimensions of life. And I had a chance to just take my what I called my travellers mindset and employ it while being sort of homebound. And that means be curious, try new things, you know, get out of your comfort zone, you know, dust off old passions. And I did that. I was I was playing my trumpet, which I hadn't played for decades. I played taps for my neighbourhood every time the sunset would said I was playing the piano like never before. I was learning how to cook for my first time and my girlfriend's got dogs and I never really appreciated dogs. And now I'm in love with these dogs. So, you know, there's lots of dimensions to life. And my my mission, I'm I'm on this planet, I think, just to, you know, go far away, make mistakes, careful notes, come home, take careful notes, come home and and help other people travel smarter. Learning from my experience, rather than their own. That's just what I love to do and it's nice to be back in the groove.

MG: How long did it take until the wanderlust set in? And you thought, Well, that's very nice to play the piano and hang out with the dogs and blow taps on the trumpet. But I'd need to get on an aeroplane and get somewhere else.

RICK STEVES: Right from the start I had to get over worrying about not travelling. I had to get over worrying about not making money. And I just decided during this pandemic I'm going to focus on my community, make sure that I'm I'm a good local neighbour and citizen. I kept my staff together. We have about a hundred people on our team. And and I was determined to keep my team together through the pandemic. I kept him on the payroll. We didn't have much to do. So we we used our time creating a volunteer corps to visit people who were shut in and helping the food banks and to clean up the parks and this kind of thing. And it was just a time where we we really got real. You know, there's more important things in our lives than than the bottom line in my business and how many books where we're writing. And we had serious work to do. And that was make sure we stayed healthy and took care of our neighbours and that's just good citizenship. So I didn't worry. It was really kind of interesting. I, I was, we were on such a trajectory, my, my work that my, the only business I've ever had and worked at it for decades. And we had our best year ever in 2019 when that, when the pandemic hit, we had we had 24,000 people signed up on our records. Both tours and I just they all had deposits in and we just had to figure out how to send deposits back. We had never done that before. And our our ethic was to send every deposit back. We're not keeping people's money on credit or anything like that. We're on the same time. This is tough for everybody. Here's your money back. Keep your travel teams alive. We're going to keep our investing in our content. And and the day will come when we can all travel again. And now that day is with us. And I've got 90 buses on the road as we speak in Europe. It's just so exciting to be able to, you know, I've got 100 freelance guides in Europe and they had nothing to no work for for two years. And it was a very difficult time for people in tourism. It right now, you know, we're all it's kind of tentative. We don't know where is going for sure. But I think we're feeling pretty good about things.

MG: Did you worry that it wasn't going to come back? I mean, there was that point where everything was up in the air and you noticed if you just look up in the sky, there's no planes that are moving around because people weren't travelling. Did you worry that this would come back?

RICK STEVES: No. I mean, maybe it was just sort of a determination to not get depressed. But I. I just reasoned that there's never been a pandemic that didn't run its course. And I figured it would I didn't know there'd be such a I didn't know the pandemic would get so politicised. I mean, that's the disheartening thing for me that that anybody would take advantage of this to win political points and and scare, you know, frightened people and frustrated people into into making a political issue about it and not and not embracing the vaccine. The vaccine is a miracle. It's a blessing. It's it's just such a beautiful thing.

MG: I've been fortunate enough to do a bit of travel in the last little bit for work, and what I realised is how much I missed getting lost in a city that I don't know, like getting absolutely going this way instead of that way on a run and not knowing where I was and having to try to figure out how to get back. What did you miss about travelling?

RICK STEVES: Well, I missed sharing. As guides, we've got guide in our blood. And you just love to take people who have not been somewhere and enthuse about it and then turn them loose and let them realise, hey, there's a whole dimension to this planet that I never appreciated. I missed. I missed fumbling around also. I mean, I love coming into a town where I'm disoriented. And that's one of my I think one of my my fortes is being disoriented and not speaking the language and then writing it up. So people who follow me can be oriented smarter. But one thing I really love about travel is connecting people with people and the little moms and pops, the little entrepreneurial ventures, you know, those those small guesthouses and cafes and restaurants and bistros. And I was that was the biggest that was what was most frightening to me when I went back to Europe is that I feared that after two years of pandemic, I would be taking away the corpses of the charming little businesses that are the heart and soul of my guidebooks. That's what carbonates the experience is to connect with people who found their niche and enjoy what they do. And thankfully. I went to Europe for four, just got back from 40 days and I've had partners and co-authors that have been then same thing and were we're astounded at how well Europe and Europe are bid. And so it's just Europe that we look at. But how how well the little businesses survived. Now, the businesses that suffered the most, I think, were well, there's two kinds, those that had no track record. So the government didn't know how much money to give them in their bailout budgets and also businesses that that focussed solely on tourism, a what I would call a tourist trap. That would be the business that had the biggest impact because there was no international tourism. What I seek out in my books and with our tours and my TV shows and so on is businesses that are popular with locals that that that a smart traveller can can patronise. And those places still had the local clientele even when there were no travellers. And so the little mom and pops, they trimmed their sales and the owner was back into the in the trenches like he was a few years ago, maybe, but they were determined to keep their businesses going and now they are still standing. And what they're dealing with, Matt, is the same challenge that that we are here in the States. And I think Canada is just the challenge of getting the staff re staffing. It's just hard to get them the people the workers have to man the airports to man the museums to to staff the restaurants and the hotels. Consequently, a restaurant may have the demand to be open seven days a week, but they're only open four or five days a week. The practical fallout is you can't rely on standard business hours. When you travel in Europe. You really need to call in advance to make sure that this restaurant is actually open on Thursday.

MG: Tell me more about that. I mean, specifically what you saw. I mean, one of your videos you talk about going to your favourite deli in Milan.

RICK STEVES: I really because I write guidebooks, I really like the information to be rock solid, reliable. You know, the museum is open every day except Monday.

MG: Because people trust you. This is this. They're using your guidebooks to figure out where they should go in.

RICK STEVES: Yeah. And now we have a word in my staff in vogue in or something. I forget the exact pronunciation, but my staff has invented this word in vogue, and we have to be a little bit vague about things because we can't be as rock solid as we want to be in normal times. What we have to do is have a little sidebar at the very beginning saying, you know, as we come out of the out of the pandemic, it's really important if you're crossing town for something to check online or give them a call and make sure they're open today. It's not that big a deal. It's kind of smart anyways. But, you know, I was it's frustrating for me when I'm right, when I'm when I'm researching. I was just over there for 30 or 40 days updating my guidebooks. And every day I'd have every evening I'd have a long list of restaurants to visit and turn the corner. There's the restaurant. Is it is it still in business? And then if it is still in business, is it open or closed? If it's closed, is it just closed today because they didn't have the staff or is it actually closed because they're closing down? You know, I had to there's a little bit of a sort of a macabre dimension of my research was to find out if they're still alive or not. And as I said, almost always they were alive, but they do not have the ability to be open as much as the demand would would warrant. And I was one thing I was really impressed by in my month and a half in Europe that I'm just just got back from is the energy. You know, that's one thing that I love about Europe is the energy, the passage to Spain, the passage I mean, the passage out in Italy, in the Paseo, in Spain, the the cafes in Paris, the beer halls in Munich, the the pubs in Scotland. These places are just jamming. And there's that energy that I hoped would still be there. You know, you don't I just don't want a low energy Europe. I like a high energy Europe. And I found it. And and that really right there that made me very, very relieved and very happy.

MG: You said something in one of your Facebook Live posts that we're all remembering how to travel again. What? Is there anything that you forgot about travelling while you were stuck at home?

RICK STEVES: I get when I'm on the road and in the groove, I'm I'm I'm very flexible. I'm very well-organised. I don't forget things. I've got a routine and it just was kind of fun to be clumsy again. And it took me a while, but little stuff like, you know, no, I don't know, like setting up in a hotel room or, you know, getting a taxi and and dealing with train stations. Another thing that has changed in the two or three years since the pandemic hit is a greater reliance on on digital things and doing things online in advance and less on cash. I was in Brussels and I was just remarking to my friend, who's a guy that was showing me around, it's really hard to find an ATM. What's going on? Usually there's an ATM on every corner and he kind of just shrugged and he thought, Well, you're right. I guess it's because we don't rely on cash so much anymore, so they're not putting out as many ATMs.

MG: We spoke over the course of the pandemic with some people in Venice, some folks in Barcelona and elsewhere who talked about how in the absence of tourists from around the world, the locals felt like in some ways they got their cities back and that they were able to reclaim some of the space and some of the culture that perhaps had been had been taken over by tourists. What do you make of that?

RICK STEVES: I have a friend in Rome who told me the same thing. You know, locals, they I mean, you get to a point where if I lived in Rome, I wouldn't go to Company [unintelligible] anymore. You know, it's just a it's just an American frat party at night during COVID, when there was no international travel, really, local people were coming out with their children and hanging out on Piazza Navona and at Trevi Fountain and Company Fiore, just like they did before tourism. They were retaking that land. And it's a beautiful thing. A troubling dynamic around Europe is the power of crowdsourcing sites like Airbnb that can drive the value of apartments up to the point where local people can't afford to stay there. And landlords, if they're interested in making money, will get into the short term rental business because you can make as much money in four nights of Airbnb rental as you can by renting your apartment to a local pensioner for a whole month. So the local pensioners are driven to the suburbs, into the concrete sprawling suburbs where there's not much character and no tourist wants to go there and the tourists are taking over the characteristic old town. You know, the the consequence of that is the mediaeval heart of Rome that made company Fiore such a sort of the Italian equivalent of a Norman Rockwell painting. You know, it's just so charming and romantic that's gone and the market is changed and it doesn't cater to the needs of locals. It caters to the needs of tourists. Same thing with the Ramblas. In my last chapter, in my my last edition of my Barcelona guidebook, I said, Ramblas, R.I.P. Rest in peace. It's not the Ramblas we all fell in love with because there's no local people living in the apartments that that kept the the vitality of the Ramblas so Spanish. I was just in Venice, met a month ago and I was filming the fish market and it's down to two fish stalls there at the Rialto Bridge. And the people who sell their produce in the, you know, fruits and vegetables are now selling slushies and exotic fruit on skewers and potpourri and little, you know, little baggies for the kids.

MG: That's what the tourists think that they want.

RICK STEVES: Exactly. Yeah. So it's you know, we're all part of that dynamic and it's sort of the free market system.

MG: But where where should that leave us? I mean, what should we be thinking about as tourists if, you know, we're the ones who are going and, you know, colonising the Ramblas and turning it into, you know, or taking it away from the pedestrian thoroughfare that it was into something else.

RICK STEVES: We're part of the problem. We are part of the problem. And I like a government that does something to protect the character of the town. Munich does that marvellously. I was in Munich just thinking what a what a joy this city is. And my Bavarian friend said in our government here, they have a policy that makes it more efficient and economic for corporations to work outside of town so people can live inside of town. The transit is designed so people stay downtown. The building code is designed so you don't have high rise buildings, nothing taller than the church spires downtown. You've got Octoberfest, which is the greatest beer party in Europe. It's not privately owned. It's not a profit thing, it's a fun thing. It's city run and therefore there's not a big profit motive. And you feel that when you go to that party, it's down home, it's local. There's the Victorian market in Munich, which is the equivalent of the markets I was talking about, so beleaguered. So it's suffering from lack of locals and too many tourists. But in the Victorian market they've got a law that prohibits any big chains from renting there. And it's just the local, the local shops and the local artisans. So you've got policies that keep local people living downtown. You've got policies that support local one off businesses instead of chains which have an economy of scale that enable them to compete unfairly with the little one shops. But that's to me, capitalism is the winning thing. You need capitalism if you're going to have a thriving economy, but you need a referee. And the referee is got to be government. And that's what Europe is so good about, I think is and that's what Americans are so afraid about, is a referee. And I think if you're interested in the social weave of your community and if you're interested in sustainability and what's it going to be like for our grandkids, you need a government to referee the free market dynamic. And that's one thing that inspires me about Europe and that's one thing I enjoy as a travel writer bringing back home to my country.

MG: I'll ask you just a couple more things before I let you go. One is for people who are travelling this summer, what's your advice? We're hearing about long delays at airports and flights being cancelled. That's, you know, the headache to get there. What's your advice when people arrive?

RICK STEVES: Well, be understanding that they're struggling. Also with coming out of the pandemic from a staffing point of view, it's just hard to staff up and, you know, be flexible, be considerate, planning things, double check things. I just make a habit always to call in advance and make sure that what I think is going to happen is expected. So I don't blindside anybody,, from a the mechanics of travelling during COVID, I think, you know, if you're- it's impossible for me to say what's, what's right for you or some other traveller, but I would just say if you're comfortable travelling around Canada or the United States, you should be totally comfortable travelling around Europe. I think. I don't think twice about crossing the Atlantic. That's easy. What I want to do is wear a mask when I'm in crowded places, you know, ventilation. I want to be sure I'm fully vaccinated. In Europe. There's there's two kinds of travellers, those who are fully vaccinated and those who are not. You know, I just have my mask in my shirt pocket and I whip it on whenever I'm going into public transit, into a museum, whether it's it's kind of sometimes it's required. Sometimes I just feel more comfortable doing it. I'm a little conservative about this. I have a lot of responsibilities. I don't want to get, you know, stuck in a hotel for a week. And, you know, I was researching my guidebook in several places, and I remember looking down this staircase and it was a thriving kind of sports bar scene with not much ventilation filled with people who might not be vaccinated. And I just thought, you know, I don't want to venture down there. I don't need to do that. You can do everything in here that I really want to do without putting yourself in a in a place that you're much more likely to to get COVID. But the good news, Matt, is that the businesses have survived, that there's an energy in Europe that just feels great. It's almost more thriving than what I'm used to. For the first time, I'm recommending that people make a reservation for dinner if they really have a place in mind. I didn't worry about that before. In fact, one of the new sort of standards, when I'm updating my guidebooks, we've got like 50 guidebooks covering all of Europe. Yeah. Is now at the beginning of each city chapter we'll have a little sidebar and it says, you know, okay, you're going to Amsterdam. If you want to see Anne Frank, if you want to see the Van Gogh, and if I don't go to the Rijksmuseum to see the Rembrandts, those are the three things you need to get a reservation for. Everything else is wide open, so don't go overboard on these advanced reservations. But the new trend in Europe is the the sites that were burdened by mob scenes are now they have no mob scenes outside their front door because people get a timed entry for. Years, I would go to Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam just to marvel at how long the line was outside. It would go hundreds of yards, and now there's 25 people outside her door because everybody has a timed entry. It's the same thing with the Last Supper in Milano. It's the same thing in many at the Accademia in in Florence for David is you don't have the mob scenes outside the door because the only way to get in is with an appointment. And that just means whether you're inclined to do this or not, go on line and make your appointment. It's just it's not rocket science. Even if you're kind of a technophobe, just go online, get your appointment, and then you have a smart trip.

MG: Last thing you're at home, which is unusual. Where are you off to next?

RICK STEVES: Next week, I'm flying to Europe with my TV crew. It's going to be the third and final of the shoots that we've made for my new art series. I'm going to Belgium, Madrid for the Prado Museum and Vienna for the Kunsthistorisches Museum to just finish off camera work for a six hour series we're producing for public television, which I know a lot of Canadians enjoy PBS shows, and we appreciate your your your viewing them and your support. And this fall, I will debut a six hour series called Rick Steves Art of Europe, taking us from pre-history to the present with all that wonderful art. I'm so excited about it. So that's why I'm heading next week.

MG: Listening to you talk is like listening to one of your your programmes, reading one of your guidebooks. It really feels I mean, I'm stuck here in a studio and my feet are itchy because I want to go somewhere else. It's a real pleasure to talk to you, Rick. Safe travels and thank you very much for joining us.

RICK STEVES: Thank you, Matt. Let's talk again sometime and happy travels to all who are listening.

MG: Take good care of my by now. Rick Steves guidebook author also hosts Monday night's travel show on his Facebook page. And his latest book is For the Love of Europe My Favourite Places, People and Stories. He was at home in Edmonds, Washington. Are you travelling? Are you excited about travelling? Do you spare a thought for those in cities like Rome and Venice who were delighted when we foreign tourists weren't there because they got their cities back? And how should we think about that differently? Maybe you live in one of those cities and you're one of those people. Let us know. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca or on Twitter as well at the current CBC. That is the current for this Friday and for this week. Hughes Up next on CBC Radio One doozy of an interview, David Cronenberg, one of the great filmmakers of this country, sits down with Tom Power to talk about his freaky new film, Crimes of the Future. Got all sorts of attention at the Cannes Film Festival. David Cronenberg. Coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio One. Before we go, a look at something coming up next week on the programme. Just talking about travel with Rick Steves. This will be a voyage of another type. The chef, Adrian Forte, brings us the flavours of Jamaica. He has a new cookbook out. It's called Yard Means Home in Patois. And he stopped by our offices here last week in what is a first for me on this programme. He cooked for us.

SOUNDCLIP

ADRIAN FORTE: So I'm just going to fold some more cornmeal in.

MG: You said this is non-traditional. Yes. So in food, people often get their backs up with. It needs to be this. It needs to be that. Now, you've always been somebody who can kind of move around between traditions.

ADRIAN FORTE: I can. Because basically what I do, if I'm going to learn about a different cuisine, I'm going to get people or champions in that space that teach me about that cuisine. But now, when it comes to Afro-Caribbean cuisine, I always tell people I'm like, you know, I'm a Jamaican. So if I make something with specific ingredients, I'm a Jamaican. So it's a Jamaican food, you know what I mean?

MG: So I'm talking about Afro Caribbean cuisine. How do you define what that is?

ADRIAN FORTE: So Afro-Caribbean cuisine, if you know anything about Jamaica, it's thickening up. It's thickening up. You see that? Yeah. So I'm just slowly folded in. But, yeah. So as most people know, you know, the indigenous people of Jamaica were the [unintelliglbe] or Latinos are the curves or whatever you want to refer to them as, but enslaved people, mostly from Ghana. Most people don't know that, made their way to Jamaica by the transatlantic slave trade. And a lot of the recipes that we think are Jamaican were actually African. Like oxtail, for example. You know, Curry was introduced by the Indians that came to Jamaica. So it's like Jamaica's motto is out of many one people. We have everyone there from India and Chinese, and these people are Jamaican. They speak better. POTTAWATTAMIE You go to Jamaica, you see them, you're like, you're Jamaican. They're like, well, I thought more like you're shocked, even white people, right? So, you know, we're comprised of so many different ethnicities and our food is so multiethnic that when it comes to Jamaican cuisine, you can go so many different directions and it's still Jamaican like you have Hakka Chinese in Toronto, you have Hakka, Jamaican Chinese, and it's like out of this world. They do like curried noodles with shrimp. And it's like it's you just have to go there to kind of understand.

MG: And so why did you want I mean, you could have done a book that's just Jamaican food, but I mean to to lean into the Afro-Caribbean.

ADRIAN FORTE: Yeah, because if I just did Jamaican that I'm just like limited. But being able to do Afro-Caribbean, I can also talk about the historical relevance of the ingredients. You know, like those ingredients, some of the ingredients that are in this book, some of the goodness that we use in Jamaica, they're not native to Jamaica. They have to find out cassava like all these things were brought here during the slave trade. Right? So what I want people to do is cycle back to Africa like this got here because of this.

MG: It's kind of a meditative thing. Listening to all that whisking.

MG: Chef Adrian Forte You can hear my full conversation and find out how that porridge turned out next week on The Current. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to the programme. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you on Monday.

Friday June 3, 2022 Full Episode Transcript

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