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The Current Transcript for February 14, 2025

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

JOE CLARK: I don't believe this country is broken, but, you know, this country is breakable. Most countries are breakable.

MATT GALLOWAY: Come together and rally around the flag. That is the message in a letter signed by Canada's five living former prime ministers. And it comes in a moment where the United States president continues to insult Canada and threaten this country's sovereignty. And Canadians have responded with anger. In a moment, former Prime Minister Joe Clark on Donald Trump and the break between Canada and the United States, what the maple leaf means to him now, and what he wants in this moment from fellow Canadians. Also this morning, relations with the US have come to the centre of the current election in Ontario. In 30 minutes, three election watchers on how a provincial vote came to be focussed on issues based in Washington, DC, not Wawa. And later, there is a lot of news. You could do with a break. I know just the place.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA HINTS: It is a sacred place. When people go to church, we go to smoke sauna, and we take off our clothes. Not just physical clothes, but also emotional clothes. And we enter there into a kind of cosmic room.

MG: In an hour, why for many cultures, the sauna is more than just a hot space to get your sweat on. But we begin with a former prime minister on a surge in Canadian pride. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

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JOE CLARK

Guest: Joe Clark

MG: Tomorrow is Flag Day here in Canada, a chance to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the red and white maple leaf flag. But this day has also taken on more meaning, with Donald Trump continuing to threaten Canada's economy and independence. Yesterday, the US president announced sweeping global reciprocal tariffs. He also upped his rhetoric about Canada becoming the 51st state, calling us a very serious contender to join the United States. In the face of these threats, all five living former Canadian prime ministers signed an open letter urging Canadians to show their patriotism. Joe Clark was Canada's 16th prime minister, from 1979 until 1980. He's with us from Victoria. Mr. Clark, good morning.

JOE CLARK: Good morning.

MG: When you take a look at what is going on south of the border, what goes through your mind?

JOE CLARK: Well, a sharp distinction between the two countries. They have always considered themselves a superpower. I guess we have always considered ourselves a cooperative power. For a long time, we've got along with quite a high degree of mutual respect. The election of Donald Trump has brought a different mentality to the US, and it is undoubtedly threatening to Canada. I personally, to look at one bright element of this, one encouraging element, I'm very encouraged by the nature of the Canadian response because it has not simply been a response by the people sitting in leadership positions. There has been a clear statement of real pride in Canada from across the country, including, interestingly, in Quebec, where that has not always been the definition. But I think that the initial reaction of Canadians, the widespread expression of confidence and faith in our country is an asset we have to build on. And sometimes, simple things are what we have to do. I’m not sure it's very helpful to exacerbate the tensions with the president. We have to deal with that on an issue by issue basis. And I think the responses of the various Canadian governments have been quite positive. But I think what we want to take a look at is what can we do on a citizen to citizen basis, including simple little things like, excuse me for the simplicity, simply writing letters to our friends in the US, being in touch with them, not to condemn their president, but to make the case of the value which most of them know quite precisely that Canada holds.

MG: Why did you… it's interesting. In the simple gestures, one of them is coming together with, as I mentioned, former prime ministers as a collective, which does not happen often, to speak with one voice. You told The Globe and Mail, these are your words, I was frankly surprised when Jean Chrétien phoned me with this proposal. As he was going through it, I realized, and I've had my differences with him, that this, in a sense, was Chrétien at his best. Why was it important in this moment to have you and fellow prime ministers come together to speak with that one voice?

JOE CLARK: Well, for one thing, it's not rare. It's been a characteristic of Canada for quite some time. You know, in my time in the House of Commons, particularly with the opposition, I was a pretty harsh critic of the then government on particular issues. But the atmosphere that prevailed even in the worst of those times, the most difficult of those times, that was a cooperative atmosphere. We were in this together. And I'm sorry to come back to the response by Canadians so far. I'm very encouraged by that because I think that in this modern age, with so many things preoccupying a country that is engaged internationally as we are, this sense of pride in this country is an asset of which we have not perhaps seen enough. We've not called on it enough in the past, but it's here and alive and it's not artificial.

MG: The letter tells Canadians to show the flag as never before as this country contends with threats and insults from Donald Trump. What do you mean never before in terms of what we're up against?

JOE CLARK: I can't think of a case in which there has been similarly direct targeting of Canada. It's not exclusive, of course, but we are next door, and that has traditionally been a mutually cooperative relationship. This is a quite dramatic change in tone and in treatment.

MG: There is an ease with which Donald Trump has said that Canada should just become the 51st state, that he thinks we would be better off. And I just wonder what you make of that tone, that it's not… initially, people perhaps thought it was a joke. And very clearly, it became clear that it's not a joke.

JOE CLARK: It's not a joke. It also doesn't apply specifically to Canada. It is a Trumpian expression of American power, and that is certainly something we have to deal with. Part of the issue is that, and I don't know this, but he had a fairly broad mandate. I doubt that being troublesome to Canada was a central part of that mandate. And indeed, I doubt that it was a central part of that mandate that he would be troublesome toward, aggressive to other countries. I'm not sure that he has the support of his base in that question. And remember, he was elected not simply by his base, but by a number of people who, for one reason or another, had voted for a change in US governance. So I think what we have to do, and I want to come back to this question of Canadian to American contact, I think we have to take a look at what we as citizens, individuals can do about his base. And we don't want to do it simply by attacking activities that we think are uncalled for and unhelpful by the president. I think we want to mobilize the goodwill that has historically been part of our relationship. And look, this has not been a one way relationship. I mean, Canada and the US have made the kinds of accommodations to one another that friends usually do. That has been a pattern for a long time. Sometimes, it's been quite dramatic. I wasn't in office very long, as you'll recall, as I recall, But I certainly remember one very precise event when Ambassador Ken Taylor and his colleagues brought American hostages out of Tehran. I recall the moment the issue was brought to Flora MacDonald, my foreign minister and myself. We immediately agreed that that should be done, and that was carried forward. And it was widely appreciated, not only in Canada, where I think they thought that was an appropriate neighbourly action, but also in the United States. The numbers of communications we received from people we'd never heard of in the US thanking us for that action was not only an expression of gratitude. It was a recognition of a state of affairs, a state of relations, a state of mutual respect that existed between Canada and the United States through very much of our history.

MG: What has happened to that sense of mutual respect now?

JOE CLARK: Well, one thing that's happened, and that's a very important question, because many things have happened. One of the things that's happened, of course, is the Trump presidency, because he has brought a much more aggressive role to what was long ago called a bully pulpit. And we have to consider that's going to continue to be the case. We want to deal with it as well as we can on a diplomatic basis, nation to nation basis, but I really think we want to take a close look at how we do that on a citizen to citizen basis. And I say that in part because so far at least, in an unusually difficult time for us, with a liberal leadership campaign in full sway, the House of Commons not likely to last it's convening, all of these sorts of things, it's a difficult time for us. This is a time where more than usually, our citizen role citizen to citizen with people who share this, part of this North American continent with us is very important. And I think it's, you know, this sounds very simple, but I am writing to friends of mine, people I've known over the years, not so much to criticize the current president as to recall the essence of the Canada US relationship, which has been by and large a very positive one. I think that we're not likely to persuade him directly. We may well be able to persuade some of the citizenry on which he relies. And remember, these are early days in the Trump administration. He obviously calculated a series of efforts that would put everybody off balance. And we're obviously in the process now, we Canadians, of trying to determine what are the best ways for us forward. I'm not part of those discussions nor should I be. I’m no longer in office. I'm a former, a commentator at this, an observer at this stage. But the polling in Canada has indicated that we have a very substantial weapon, call it instrument, option of our own that citizens can express as we have been in Canada. But now, we have to do it across the 49th parallel.

MG: Let me ask you a couple of things just about this country we have seen. You talked about a difficult time in Canada. We've seen a number of deepening divisions in our own country over the past number of years. And there's been a narrative that has circulated that because institutions may be failing or people are losing trust in institutions, that Canada is broken. When you hear that, what goes through your mind?

JOE CLARK: Well, then I take a look at the poll that shows so many Canadians expressing their pride in the country.

MG: You don't believe this country is broken?

JOE CLARK: I don't believe this country is broken. But, you know, this country is breakable. Most countries are breakable. I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that it's happening. I don't even think that's on the edge of happening. But I think that we have to recognize that one of the components of maintaining our strength as a country is first of all, action by all of us in that realm where we might have some influence, but secondly, a greater appreciation of the strengths that we have. We're a federal country where both federal and provincial levels of government have real power. And we're a country where there have been historic divisions. I'm a Western Canadian by origin. And I know that we grew up with a sort of an incipient sense of being unequally treated in the large country. Those sorts of senses of difference have always been in the country. What's interesting is that more recently, we have retreated into our parts, I think, and this clearly is a time when we have to find ways to move forward together. And as I say, even in a fractious time with leadership campaigns in process, with the federal provincial relations which are difficult, we are finding that our formal Canadian leaders, premiers, the federal government are coming together. What about the citizens? What role can citizens play? It's not a facetious question. There's a strong bond of friendship across our borders. And there's also an instinct, I think. I think there's a sense in which in this very narrow particular, Mr. Trump is an outsider in his own country. I'm not saying that he can't stir up antagonism towards others. He's certainly trying to do that. But I don't think we should assume that his citizens will simply snap to attention.

MG: Can I ask you… I'm talking to you on the eve of Flag Day. And for many people in recent years, the flag has become a symbol. I mean, we've seen it as part of protests. We've seen it in the wake of the pandemic, during the pandemic upside down on the back of cars and trucks, often with a sticker cursing out the current prime minister underneath it or something like that. When you saw that, I just wonder what your reaction was and what you think the flag means now to Canadians.

JOE CLARK: Well, I think that comes to the point that I'm trying to make, is that we have to treat it as something else. We Canadians have to treat the flag and our country as something worth addressing.

MG: Were you disappointed when you saw it used as a symbol of protest?

JOE CLARK: No. I mean, I think that's… it's not the way I would use it. Using it as a symbol of protest I think misunderstands the power of the flag. Look, I was a young Progressive Conservative. In fact, I was the president of our youth federation at a time when Mr. Diefenbaker, a leader I admired and followed, opposed what he called the Pearson pennant, what became the Canadian flag. I as a member, an active office holding member of his party and most and almost all of my young Conservatives at that time supported the flag. It was not universally accepted. It became accepted over time. And yes, there may well be occasional misuses of it now. But I think, and the polls show this, it is a clear and accurate demonstration of contemporary Canadian pride in the country. And we can't keep that to ourselves. We have to make sure that the citizens particularly of a generally friendly neighbour nation, who have had generally positive relations with Canada for some time, realize as much as possible on a person to person basis that what is happening now is not some distant affair of state. This is a matter of real direct concern to citizens on both sides of the border.

MG: This is, I mean, a moment, it feels like in some ways. And yet, you've hinted at this. Do you think patriotism is something that comes easy to Canadians?

JOE CLARK: Yeah, in a crunch. I think it does.

MG: In a crunch.

JOE CLARK: Yeah. I mean, I don't think we travel the world celebrating Canadian virtues, but I think that we all carry a sense of the advantages we have of, and they're not just personal advantages, they are collective advantages. They are community advantages. I still believe in this country as a community of communities. That means we have taken account of and we show respect for our own differences. And that is a message that has to cross the border because Donald Trump's actions indicate he does not respect the genuine differences of this country. I think a lot of his fellow citizens probably would respect the differences of Canada and of some other countries. And I think that we have to as Canadians, as the people closest to the Americans, in many cases, not just physical, we have to make use of those contacts and connections now.

MG: What do you want to see from political leadership in this country at this moment?

JOE CLARK: I want to see as much consensus as we can find on the process of asserting Canada's interests and defending Canada's interests. And I think to some degree, that seems to have happened now. It's a hard time for it to happen because there is a clear opening in the leadership of the government, of what is now the governing party.

MG: And an election on the horizon.

JOE CLARK: And an election on the horizon. But that does not mean we should put aside our deeper concerns, which have to do with the nature of the country. So far, the actions of most of our leaders have been very constructive. Look, I'm disappointed at the contentious tone that seems to have overtaken Canadian politics in the last several years. I think it has developed. And it's unfortunate because it has the impact of edging Canadians away from one another. And we have always needed incentives to come together to identify the strengths we have and to move them forward. I'm quite disturbed as I watch a House of Commons where I used to be very active at the mutual tone of virtual disrespect that I see across the House. I'm not saying it's brand new. I can remember once in a particularly contentious debate, a quite large, stronger than I was Liberal member charging across the floor with his fist raised at me. And a couple of my own guys, equally capable of fisticuffs, sort of stood up behind me. But it ended. He stopped himself midway across the floor. It was an isolated instance. By and large, we were a cooperative place. We were a mutually respectful place. And I think that we, the members of all parties, have an obligation to try to establish what has been. That tradition is a deeply ingrained Canadian tradition. We have to try to restore it. But what I really want to say at this stage looking for other things that we can do is that this is a time for citizens to come to the active support of their country by using the contacts, the personal contacts that we all have in the United States. We shouldn't assume that just because he's president, that Donald Trump speaks for his citizenry on this question. And if there's a risk of that happening, that heightens the necessity for us to become involved making the case for Canada.

MG: Do you feel that he has under, Donald Trump has underestimated Canada and Canadians in this moment?

JOE CLARK: I don't think he thinks about it. I think he is a very narrowly focussed national leader. It's surprising because very often, assuming national leadership broadens your vision, I don't think that has happened with him. What is also alarming to me is that the quality and inclination of the people he is moving into senior positions seems more narrow than it was even in his first administration. And that means that we have a problem here. And that problem has to be addressed by a number of Canadian agencies. But yet, that includes Canadian citizens with friends and influence of their own. Exercising that influence.

MG: Joe Clark, it's a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you very much.

JOE CLARK: Thank you very much.

MG: Joe Clark was Canada's 16th prime minister, from 1979 through 1980. Your CBC news is next, and then.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: I'm asking the people of Ontario for their trust.

BONNIE CROMBIE: Doug Ford has shown he can't negotiate his way out of a paper bag.

MIKE SCHREINER: Housing starts are down. Housing costs are up.

MARIT STILES: So do I think we should have an election right now? No.

MG: Ontario voters head to the polls in under two weeks for a snap provincial election. And despite more local concerns, the focus has been in many ways on relations with the United States. We'll talk with three election watchers about what's at stake and what's unfolding in this campaign. That's coming up in six minutes. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

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ONTARIO ELECTION

Guests: Laura Stone, Mike Crawley, Rob Benzie

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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DOUG FORD: Working together, Canada and the US can be the richest, most successful, safest, most secure two countries on the entire planet. We can usher in a new American Canadian century, what President Trump calls new golden age. We do so by building Fortress AmCan.

MG: Ontario Premier Doug Ford took his fortress AmCan pitch to Washington, DC, this week. Doug Ford is the current leader of the premiers group that's trying to defend Canada in the face of a trade war and ward off American tariffs. But he's also running a re-election campaign as the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party leader, after calling a snap election more than a year early because he said he needed a fresh mandate to deal with the economic threat to Ontario's economy. With less than two weeks before voting day and a debate today and again on Monday, we are looking at what matters to people in the Ontario election. Mike Crawley covers Ontario politics for your CBC. Robert Benzie is Queen's Park Bureau Chief for the Toronto Star. Laura Stone is a reporter with the Globe and Mail’s Queen's Park Bureau. Good morning, everyone.

ROBERT BENZIE: Good morning, Matt.

LAURA STONE: Good morning.

MIKE CRAWLEY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Laura, did you ever imagine you would be taking a detour to Washington, DC, while covering an Ontario election campaign?

LAURA STONE: I didn't. And, you know, I spend a lot of time with Mike and Rob, so I can't get away from these guys.

MG: That's what happens. Rob, explain why this election is happening. The Progressive Conservatives under Doug Ford have a big majority. They have time left in their mandate. Why did he say he needed to pull the chute now and have an early vote?

ROBERT BENZIE: Well, Mr. Ford has been looking for an excuse to have an early election since last May, Matt, and they've been casting about for one. And Donald Trump has given them a really solid one because they say they need to get in front of his tariff threat and have some certainty here in Ontario. Now, the reason Mr. Ford's been looking for an excuse to have an election for so long is he is popular in the polls, and he's trying to get in front of an RCMP investigation into the $8.28 billion green belt land swap scandal. Mr. Ford has denied any wrongdoing, but there is always the off chance that someone in the government’s circle or someone in their orbit gets charged, and then, you know, this thing all goes off the rails. So they wanted to get in front of that. But the excuse, official excuse is the Trump tariff.

MG: Just briefly, Rob, tell us, we'll get to them in detail, but we've talked a little bit about Doug Ford. Who are his rivals in this case?

ROBERT BENZIE: The main, two main rivals are NDP leader Marit Stiles, who is the official opposition leader in the legislature at Queen's Park, and Liberal leader Bonnie Crombie. And both Ms. Crombie and Ms. Stiles are new, are new leaders. They only became leader in 2023. So this is their first provincial campaign, but they're both experienced politicians. But today in North Bay, the first of two debates will be the first time the four of them have been on the stage together, along with Green leader Mike Schreiner.

MG: Mike, what do you make of the election call now? I mean, Rob talked about what's going on in terms of the tariffs and the fact that perhaps Doug Ford had been looking for an opportunity to go. There is also political uncertainty, he said, in Ottawa, and questions as to whether, you know, and when there will be a federal campaign. How does that all factor into what we're seeing right now?

MIKE CRAWLEY: Yeah, the timing is perfect for Doug Ford. And they chose this timing, right? They didn't have to call an election until June of next year because Ontario has these six state election rules. And so they've controlled the timing. This is coming in at a time when Doug Ford happens to be the chair of the Council of the Federation, the chair of the premiers. So he's had a pretty big national profile.

MG: There’s a photo that’s circulating of him sitting in a chair, and he's surrounded by microphones and cameras and people kind of leaning in.

MIKE CRAWLEY: It kind of looks like the Lord's Supper or something or some kind of medieval painting. Yeah. And, you know, he's been making a bunch of appearances on US networks because, you know, with a lame duck prime minister, who do the American networks reach out to to talk about this 51st state stuff and tariffs and all of that? So his profile is very, very big. And, you know, what's kind of interesting is if you think back to Doug Ford's, you know, original, his origins as a politician, you know, stepping in as a Toronto city councillor while his brother was the mayor of Toronto and, you know, his very narrow focus on Toronto, suddenly to see him on this, on the national stage talking about, you know, relations with the US, it's actually quite remarkable the transformation.

MG: Is he at all worried about the federal scene and the fact that, I mean, polling is changing such as it is, but that there was the sense certainly a few weeks ago that Pierre Poilievre, leader of the federal Conservative Party, not Progressive Conservative, but Conservative Party, perhaps was a prime minister in waiting.

MIKE CRAWLEY: Well, and that is actually also part of why he wanted to call the election earlier. In addition to the things that Rob mentioned, the idea that there would be a Poilievre government by, you know, sometime later this year before all of this evolved wouldn't have been great politics for Doug Ford because a couple of reasons. One is, you know, if Pierre Poilievre comes in, then Doug Ford loses his foil in Justin Trudeau. A lot of his campaigning has been against Justin Trudeau as much as it's been against, you know, the opposition leaders here in the province. And if, you know, Pierre Poilievre came in and did a bunch of things that upset Ontario voters, you know, that might blowback on Doug Ford. So I think, you know, I think that's one of the multiple reasons why they wanted to go sooner rather than later.

MG: Laura, it's the halfway point in the campaign. Is your sense that the gamble that Doug Ford took in going early, is that paying off?

LAURA STONE: I think Doug Ford has dominated the discussion of the election. And so in that sense, I think it has for him. I mean, a lot can happen in campaigns. The debates are pretty high stakes as well, today’s and Monday's. It's the first time the public will see the leaders squaring off and perhaps the first time the public will tune in to the campaign in any particular detail. So a lot can happen in the next two weeks. But I do think in the sense of Mr. Ford looking like he's still the premier and still the leader, which he technically is, but eating up a lot of air time and that message of taking on Donald Trump I think has been the dominant message of the campaign. And so I think in that sense, it has worked out for him. I think what's been really interesting to watch during the campaign and down in Washington where we all were was the fine line that, or maybe it's not even that fine, but the lines that have been blurred by Mr. Ford in the sense of him still acting as the premier of the province, but also running a re-election campaign. And I asked him in one of his scrums in Washington, so who are you right now? Are you the premier or are you the PC Party leader? He said, I'm the Premier. But the PC Party also paid for him and his political staff to travel down to Washington. I think sensing there was some sensitivity around the optics of him heading to another country during the campaign. And there was some controversy yesterday around a video that Mr. Ford posted of footage from his trip walking, walking along the streets of Washington in the Capitol, looking very literally, I suppose, and then ending with the PC Party slogan and the campaign slogan, which is protect Ontario. And that video was later removed and reposted. And I think Mike Crawley noticed that first. And so I think a lot of lines have been blurred here in terms of exactly which hat Doug Ford is wearing throughout the campaign.

MG: Rob, is your sense that that trip to Washington paid off? I mean, the premiers met with the deputy chief of staff for the White House who then subsequently said that, yeah, we're still interested in Canada becoming a 51st state. Also met with the director of personnel, which people have been snarking, saying that's great if you want to get a job, perhaps less great if you actually want to have an impact on the White House. Did the trip play off to and play well to voters here at home?

ROBERT BENZIE: I mean, I guess that remains to be seen. I think that Ford and his team certainly feel that it was helpful to them. The meeting, that was really unusual meeting at the White House. And actually, Kate McKinnon from CBC broke the story that it was thanks largely to this $85,000 a month contract that the Council of the Federation of Premiers has with a lobbying firm in Washington that is very closely linked to the Trump administration. So I mean, look, it was smart of them to hire a connected lobbyist. If you're going to, if you're going to do that, you might as well do it to someone who's going to get you some influence. But I don't know. To your point, Matt, yeah, the deputy director of or deputy chief of staff and the guy in charge of hiring. It's not exactly like you're meeting with, you know, Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, or President Trump himself. But I think, and funny, Laura and Mike and I were talking about this in DC, with Trump, it's so ad hoc. There's always a chance that he sticks his head in the door. I mean, Wab Kinew from Manitoba bumped into Elon Musk, who's really the second in command in the White House after Trump, just in the hallway at the White House. So I think just being there was not unhelpful. Now, look, you're right. The guy trolled Premier Eby and said, we still want to have you as a 51st state, which is Eby was right. It is a non-starter. It's the one thing all 13 premiers and all 41, 42 million Canadians agree is we don't want to be a 51st state for a million reasons. So I think it's brought us together as a country, actually.

MG: And yet, and just the last point on Mr. Ford, Mike, he was caught on camera last week saying that he'd actually been happy that Donald Trump won until, in his words, Donald Trump pulled out a knife and then said other things that we can't say on the radio. It was turned into an ad that people perhaps saw during the Super Bowl. What does that do to Doug Ford?

MIKE CRAWLEY: So leading up to the tariff thing, Doug Ford had not really made a secret of his, of how he felt about Donald Trump. He'd even previously, you know, previously said that he wanted Trump, you know, to win the election in 2016. He, you know, he had said his support for Donald Trump was unwavering. So I guess the question, though, Matt, of how does that affect the campaign now? People's opinions in Ontario about Doug Ford are pretty firm. Folks, there's a lot of information out there about Doug Ford and things he's done in the past and said in the past that people know about. And so I just don't know whether him admitting that yeah, he wanted Donald Trump to win the election a few months ago actually shifts votes because it solidifies the opinion of people that don't want to vote for Doug Ford that yeah, here's another reason not to like him. But for the folks who do, that's kind of baked in to their feeling about Doug Ford.

MG: One of the things that's surprising, perhaps to people who aren't following this as closely as you are, is that this campaign is so dialed into what's happening between Canada and the United States, and that in the province of Ontario, there are big issues that people are facing that perhaps aren't getting as much attention. Have a listen to what the leader of the Liberal Party, Bonnie Crombie, had to say about the issue of health care.

SOUNDCLIP

BONNIE CROMBIE: We have a plan that will invest $3 billion, which incidentally is about the same amount as those pre-election checks everyone is receiving. And we would put that into health care. We would put that into hiring 3100 family doctors to ensure that you get the health care that you need.

MG: Laura, those checks that she's referring to are $200 rebate checks to taxpayers coming from the Ontario government just before the election was called. What do we know about why it is that health care, we talked to people in Walkerton, Ontario, who were standing out in the freezing cold for hours in the midst of a blizzard trying to get a family doctor. Why isn't this one of the top issues or the top issue, do you think, in the campaign? Or is it and perhaps people are just talking about something else?

LAURA STONE: Well, I think it is a top issue. And I think the Liberals have kind of rightly zoned in on one thing that they want to talk about during this campaign, which is health care. That's their main message. They've tried to run a very focussed campaign. I think probably knowing that Mr. Ford and the PCs were going to talk all about tariffs and all about Trump, I think in kind of a message control fashion, they thought, let's have a, let's run a very focussed campaign. Obviously, they're going to talk about other issues in the province. But health care and the lack of family doctors is a major issue, and people are talking about it. I think there's perhaps among the public almost a resignation to how bad it is. And I don't want to downplay the situation, because if people have had negative experiences in the hospital waiting rooms, for instance, waiting for 10, 12 hours to see someone, or if you've waited a couple of years and you can't get a doctor in your area, these are big issues that impact your life on a daily basis. I think maybe because it's been low level there for so long, it's not as much of a pressing issue as the visuals of Donald Trump in the White House saying we're going to take over Canada. So I think, you know, I do think it's a big issue. I think the Liberals have tried to make it a big issue. Their campaign bus is splattered with stats about the health care system instead of pictures of Bonnie Crombie's face. But I think kind of maybe the more pressing issue of Donald Trump and the tariffs, which is dominating the news cycle, dominating discussion, maybe the thing that everyone's talking about right now, that's what they're up against. And so that's why I think the debates will matter. And I think the issues that are happening in the province, you know, be it housing, be it social services, health care, lack of family doctors, and we know that millions more people are going to lack access to a family doctor in the next couple of years, I think they will kind of rise above the noise that we've been hearing throughout the campaign because of Trump. But Trump just takes over. Trump dominates at the dinner table. He's what everyone's talking about. And so it's been difficult for the opposition parties to get attention.

MG: Leader of the NDP, Marit Stiles, is trying to break through that as well. She was on the campaign trail in Windsor, Ontario. Have a listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIT STILES: It's the workers of this province. I will stand with them and we will protect every single one of those jobs. And they are absolutely under threat. You cannot count on Doug Ford and his Conservative MPPs to stand up for working people. They're not there on the picket line, right? They won't fight against the scabs. They won't fight the private agencies. They are not the friends of working people.

MG: Mike, how well is that appeal going?

MIKE CRAWLEY: Look, this is quite possibly the biggest transformation of the Progressive Conservatives under Doug Ford.

MG: We were in Windsor and saw that.

MIKE CRAWLEY: Yeah, because when Doug Ford was elected first in 2018, one of the first things that his government did was to gut labour legislation, froze the minimum wage, made it more difficult to join a union, like all sorts of basically anti-worker stuff in their first year in government. And they realized by the time the 2022 election rolled around that actually, as I had it told to me by a Conservative strategist, there's a lot more workers out there voting than there are business owners or employers. And they transformed somehow, Doug Ford into a friend of the working man. And so a bunch of his campaign appearances were in front of workers in orange reflective vests. And they got endorsements from a bunch of private sector unions, mainly in the construction trades. And that's been happening. They've been practically announcing a union endorsement every single day. So for the NDP, this is really difficult. The NDP lost seats in places like Windsor and Timmins and Hamilton to the Conservatives last time. So the reaching out for working people's votes is hard for the New Democrats this time. And, you know, in some ways, maybe this is a bit like how in the US, there were, you know, unions and working people wanting to vote for the Republicans and for Donald Trump.

MG: We're almost out of time. Rob, I have to ask you, one of the things that you wrote is that, and you said this early in the campaign, the Progressive Conservative Party believes there's only one candidate that can defeat Doug Ford, and that's Doug Ford. You have a story in the paper today about a speech that he gave at the London Police Service dinner, in which he called for the return of the death penalty. What did he say?

ROBERT BENZIE: Well, he said that he'd like changes in the federal Criminal code so that judges could, what he said, empower judges to, quote unquote, send them right to sparky, meaning the electric chair. This is a story that my colleague Rob Ferguson and I did. It’s on our front page today, actually. And it was quite a, it was quite something for him to say this. It was caught on tape, and we have the recording. And, you know, he said, here's what he actually said, Matt. Don't even go 25 years. I say send them to sparky, and we'll take it from there.

MG: But he also said that he was concerned, that there was concern that he would go off script, right, that he would say something different.

ROBERT BENZIE: Yeah, and that was the main thing. They were very worried about his off the cuff remarks. I mean, he has a bit of a… he has a folksy charm. And he is a strong communicator much of the time. But he even says, oh, you know, my campaign says don't go off script, and then he does. The same thing with, Mike mentioned the 100, him saying he 100% wanted Trump to win the election. That was caught on a hot mic. His campaign wasn't happy. And interestingly, at first, yesterday when we contacted them, they were, they played it down, and then they realized that it was not playing very well. And they put out six hours later, they put out a statement calling it a poor taste joke and that they are not in favour of the death penalty, the Tories.

MG: Who knows what will unfold in the next couple of weeks. The campaign is only halfway through. We will continue to follow this. It's good to have you all here this morning. Thank you.

ROBERT BENZIE: Bye, guys.

LAURA STONE: Thanks.

MIKE CRAWLEY: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Laura Stone, covering Ontario Provincial politics with The Globe and Mail. Robert Benzie is with the Toronto Star, and Mike Crawley is reporting on the campaign for your CBC. You can find the latest at cbcnews.ca.

CANADIAN FLAG DESIGN

MG: This is The Current. My name is Matt Galloway. As we mentioned earlier, tomorrow is Flag Day in this country. The Maple Leaf celebrating its 60th anniversary at a time when Canadians are feeling especially patriotic, and that goes beyond election campaigns. The former prime minister, Joe Clark, talked earlier in our program about the debate over the creation of the flag. And so here from The Current's archives, the story behind the making of our country's flag.

SOUNDCLIP

RUTH STANLEY: My name is Ruth Stanley. My husband was George Stanley. Alas, no longer with me.

DELLA STANLEY: My name is Della Stanley. My father was George Francis Gillman Stanley, the person who submitted the design of the present flag for Canada.

RUTH STANLEY: He was first and foremost a historian.

DELLA STANLEY: The Dean of arts and science at the Royal Military College. I think the first thing we have to understand is that Canada never had had an official flag. We had at various times since Confederation used the Union Jack or the Red Ensign.

RUTH STANLEY: When I first met George, he started talking about Flag, and I said, well, we have. We have the Ensign. And he said, but it's not suitable. He spent a lot of time explaining to me why we had to have a flag. And in about five minutes, he convinced me. And then we spent the next few years trying to convince everybody else.

DELLA STANLEY: In the election of 1963, Lester B. Pearson promised that if he was elected, within two years, he would make sure that Canada had a flag that represented all Canadians.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Let's look back at Sunday night when Mr. Pearson put his policy to a largely dissenting audience of Legionnaires.

SPEAKER: In World War Two, in January 1944, the Red Ensign came officially on the scene.

[cheers and applause]

DELLA STANLEY: Then there was a proposal. He had a flag which he thought was a good idea, and it later on became known as the Pearson pennant. And he proposed it to Parliament, and it went over very negatively.

RUTH STANLEY: It was an awful flag he had dreamt up.

DELLA STANLEY: And so at that point, he decided to turn the whole issue over to what became known as the Flag Committee.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: So we sometimes forget.

SPEAKER: It’s all right, Mr. Chairman. This is a veterans meeting.

[laughter]

SPEAKER: And as Harry Truman once said, if you can't stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen.

[laughter]

DELLA STANLEY: People from all across the country submitted designs. There were 1500 to 2000 designs.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: And submitted ideas ranging from elaborate creations in silken gold to cardboard cut-outs.

RUTH STANLEY: And my husband had a certain esthetic sense that he knew exactly what he wanted.

DELLA STANLEY: I can remember my dad coming home late for supper one night. I clearly remember him explaining to my mother why he was late for supper. He was sitting in his office, and he was looking across the parade square and he could see the RMC flag. So in his proposal, he took the RMC flag and essentially took out the coat of arms for the college and inserted a single red maple leaf.

RUTH STANLEY: And that's it. That's all there is to it.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: I believe that today, a flag designed around the maple leaf will symbolize and be a true reflection of the new Canada.

[cheers]

DELLA STANLEY: I was 13. I had two younger sisters. We were certainly enthusiastic supporters of the idea. Sadly, a lot of our friends’ school and our teachers and even family members did not share that same enthusiasm. I had a teacher that I really, really admired, and every time I came in the room, he'd say, why would your father do that? It's such a rag of a flag.

RUTH STANLEY: British organizations were very unhappy about this flag and didn't hesitate to tell you so.

DELLA STANLEY: Of course, we were very much aware of the very rancorous debate that then went on in the House of Commons. They went on and on and on.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Yesterday was the 210th in a weary procession of argument, political manoeuvre and straight name calling.

DELLA STANLEY: Until finally, obviously, the government introduced closure in order to get the flag passed in Parliament. And then, of course, the first official flying of the flag was on February the 15th, 1965. My parents went to that first raising of the flag at Parliament Hill. We as children could not go. And the reason was that someone had sent letters to my father threatening to assassinate him.

RUTH STANLEY: George did get a letter. He was told not to go to raising the new flag because he had killed their flag and he wasn’t able to kill him. So as a result, my children didn't go to that. They never saw that.

DELLA STANLEY: My son when he was little, he would tell people when we were downtown and we would look up at the flag on the post office and he'd say, that's my poppies flag. That's my poppies flag.

RUTH STANLEY: It's a wonderful story, you know, really. He was a marvelous man. Quite remarkable. I was lucky.

MG: The design behind Canada's flag was produced by The Current’s Ines Colabrese almost a decade ago. Ruth Stanley has since died on Flag Day, no less, February 15th, 2017. Well, coming up after your regional update, we will escape the news and the snow that many Canadians are digging themselves out of right now and head to the sauna. More than a place just to take your clothes off and get your sweat on, as we were saying, it is a place of cultural significance for so many. Into the hot box coming up in 90 seconds here on The Current. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

SAUNAS

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. It is winter and it's cold. Large parts of this country are getting walloped with snowstorms. And I spent some quality time this morning on my way in to work digging myself out before I could actually get here into the studio. You know what feels great at this time of the year? Being in a sauna. Our relationship with saunas appears to be getting steamier. TikTok and Instagram are full of sauna champions who believe that sitting in a sweltering room is the secret to living longer and living better. So this morning, we are going to hear about both. We'll start by going for a sauna. And to do that, you need some wood for the fire.

SOUNDCLIP

[wood chopping]

MG: Valtteri Rantala is chopping wood for his business, The Finnish Sauna. It started in 2019 as a mobile sauna on a trailer, and Valtteri toes it from the beaches to yards and even back through back alleys across Vancouver. He's since expanded this project, but the core of sharing Finnish sauna culture has stayed the same.

SOUNDCLIP

[crackling fire]

VALTTERI RANTALA: The heat has a slightly, not even slightly, but it has a humbling softening and the present awakening characters to it. So. So it cultivates a space where you want to share and listen and be in whatever comes up. So I love sauna for storytelling, for listening stories, for singing or just being in silence and listening the fire crackle and then see what comes up.

[pouring water, fire]

VALTTERI RANTALA: Okay. In Finnish, we call it Lola. It's very similar in Estonian. And we call it the Lola is a good way to put your intentions, ask for the spirit of Lola for kind of like healing, soothing or whatever you want to let go. So it is kind of a good way to set intentions and make it into a spiritual health or whatever, awakening, meaningful experience for yourself.

[fire]

VALTTERI RANTALA: The memories are coming back now because I go back home and I have eight nieces and nephews there, which are from two months to 11 years. So you can see the whole, all the chapters and the different steps in the sauna life when they first started a little top in the floor. When they become a bit more like four or five, you start like going in the bottom bench, five or six, you go and you try the top bench. And I think my memory is, would be, yeah, somewhere around four or five, with mom and dad and just like just, you know, going for it and being like overwhelmed and then rolling in the snowbanks after. And we would make a hole in the lake in there with the ice, which would be like three feet thick, and then have little stairs to go down the ice and have cold dips.

[fire]

VALTTERI RANTALA: And some of the best saunas that you go in Finland and Northern Europe can be 100, 150 years old. When you go into a hundred-year-old sauna, you know that how much life it has seen, you know, how many sweats, how many stories. So there is a depth to the space that is different than a brand new, shinier sauna. So I would say sauna is like wine. It will just get better over time as long as you properly maintain it.

MG: Sounds cozy. Now, Finland should not get all the credit here. Estonia also has a vibrant sauna culture. Anna Hints is an Estonian filmmaker. Her documentary, Smoke Sauna Sisterhood, lets us into the intimate conversations of women over several years in a smoke sauna. And this film was Estonia's nominee for last year's Academy Awards. I spoke with her last year. Here's that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: I have a friend, a colleague who is Estonian, and she says there's a sign near her sauna that says a sauna is a poor man's doctor. What does the sauna broadly mean to Estonian culture? What's its place in Estonian culture?

ANNA HINTS: It is a sacred place, especially smoke sauna. So smoke sauna is like old type of sauna that has no chimney. And it dates back to pre-Christian times. When people go to church, we go to smoke sauna, and we take off our clothes. Not just physical clothes, but also emotional clothes. And we enter there into a kind of cosmic room where you can share absolutely everything. And it is, I can say, the best doctor, like best mental and physical doctor. And something that is so deeply in our culture or like people need that, like you need, you get the sauna need. When you haven't been to sauna or you haven't been to smoke sauna, you get this kind of itching in your body. At least I get.

MG: Can you explain how that works? You said there's no chimney, so the smoke just comes back into the room or what happens?

ANNA HINTS: So there is no chimney. It means that you have to heat it beforehand. So you have to take time, six to eight hours, depending on the temperature, what is outside. And then you heat it and then you let it stay for some time and then you let the smoke out and then you enter. So you cannot be inside smoke sauna and put fire or hear the fire because then, the smoke would come and you would die, basically. So it works, it works differently. And really, you have to take time to be in smoke sauna. You cannot do it in rush. And because there is no chimney, the walls are dark and it’s this kind of tarty smell. And really, it has no electricity. And you enter into this darkness that has only one or two, maximum, two small windows and natural light or candlelight, and you feel like you're inside kind of timeless space. And it really is also a place where you can meet your ancestors. Like we have special time in late autumn when we believe our ancestors, our spirits come to see us, and then we make special smoke sauna for them. And there is this, yeah, this smell and this different type of Leil, different type of this heat that comes from smoke sauna. And it stays a long time warm. And women used to give birth in smoke saunas, also wash the dead and heal for centuries. So it's significantly special for women.

MG: All the way through life, as you said, from birth to death.

ANNA HINTS: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. You give birth there, and then later, your body is being washed there with cold water before a funeral.

MG: What does that heat… you said it's a different kind of heat. What does that heat feel like when you're in that space?

ANNA HINTS: It feels… it really goes deep into your body and cells. And it is this kind of heat where… that at the same time, it's not like you're not feeling exhausted because sometimes, saunas can be very sharp. It's not sharp. It's like it gets to your bones. But at the same time, it is like embrace. You know, it's… And how it is, how it functions is that with the heat, you start to sweat. And then with time, deeper, deeper layers of physical dirt start to come up to the surface. But also, emotional dirt starts to come up to the surface, and then you let it out. And I've never experienced this kind of listening to each other like smoke sauna. Like every story, every experience has the birth right there, and you just hear each other out. It's this kind of safety. You feel very safe there and very like protected and embraced. And what is nice is that that warmth comes with you also outside to this world. That is, you know, as we know, a lot of challenges and not nice things also in the world, but then you have that heat that stays with you.

MG: When were you first introduced to this? When did you, I mean, as I said, it goes right through life. But what's your earliest memory of that?

ANNA HINTS: Yeah, you start to go to smoke sauna already when you're in the mother's womb. But a very significant moment that I remember is when I was 11, and my grandfather had just died and his body was in the house, and we went to smoke sauna before funeral, one day before funeral. It was my granny, my aunt, my niece. And their granny revealed that grandfather had actually cheated on her not just once, but several times. And she released like all the emotions connected with that. And there was, I remember, frustration and anger, but also a lot of shame and, you know, like how difficult it was Soviet time and for kids. And she released all that also, like, [makes sound effect], you know, like really vocally releasing all the emotions. And one smoke sauna session lasts several hours. So you're there, you go out, you come back, you're there. And once we put clothes on and we fully went out, I felt that granny had made peace with grandfather. So that next day, we could bury grandfather in peace. And this was the time when like next layer or next door of smoke sauna opened to me. And I realized that, okay, on this earth, there is a safe space where absolutely all your emotions, all your experiences can be shared, can be heard. And when we give voice to our story and when we give space to other stories, there is like huge, huge healing power in that. And so, and also, now, I think it is just the time when I was like initiated to the sisterhood, to these kind of sharings. So I was 11 at the time.

MG: This is the thing that you see throughout, I mean, your film is beautiful, and that's the kind of emotion and the scenes that we see throughout the film where there are women who are talking about cancer and miscarriage and sexuality and violence. And these are hard things to talk about, but they're also laughing and there's moments of joy. And I mean, it sounds obvious, but you're in the sauna and you don't have your clothes on. You're naked, but you're not just naked physically, if you know what I mean. There's something else that is brought up, as you said, in that space. What do you think is going on that those conversations are different than outside of that space?

ANNA HINTS: There is the permission for everyone to be totally vulnerable. And there is this kind of, I mean, many things. First of all, there is the darkness, there is the heat, but there's also the centuries-long tradition that gives you that permission. And, you know, I thought about that when I started to make film that I made seven years. I thought that the most important is the courage to share the uncomfortable. And by uncomfortable, I mean all these experiences and, you know, that we are usually hiding outside in the world or, you know, we're ashamed to talk about. But there, you have that permission. But then when I made the film, I realized that maybe the most important is the courage to hear the uncomfortable. We are looking for a connection, but we are often thinking that there should be like an easy way or like, okay, can we connect without being vulnerable? And I'm like, no, there is no other way. It is true that vulnerability, and you learn to be okay with that. You learn to be okay with the uncomfortable. You learn how to be okay with that vulnerable. And you after that, you start to feel more and more alive. And my granny said that, you know, when we have traumas, then they are like frozen water inside us. But and sometimes, we can find ourselves in deep, dark winter, just ice fields. But it's so important to remember that that ice has the power to flow again. We just need warmth and safety, and then we can melt our traumas. So with that thought, I say a lot of love to everyone.

MG: Your granny was right.

ANNA HINTS: Thank you.

MG: Thank you, Anna.

ANNA HINTS: Thank you.

MG: Anna Hints is an Estonian filmmaker. Her documentary is called Smoke Sauna Sisterhood. It turns out that saunas aren't just culturally important. Researchers are finding evidence that they can actually both help your heart and your mind as well. Dr. Peter Attia is a Toronto-born medical doctor who specializes in lengthening lifespan. His bestselling book is called “Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity.” Here's my conversation with him.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: Dr. Attia, good morning.

PETER ATTIA: Yeah, thank you.

MG: Are you a sauna person?

PETER ATTIA: I am. Yes, very much so.

MG: Tell me about that, because that changed, right? You used to… I remember reading somewhere that you used to believe that, you know, they felt great, but that was kind of it. What did you learn that led you to become, as I say, a sauna person?

PETER ATTIA: Maybe about 10 years ago, my view in looking at literature was now this was, there were a lot of what were called healthy user biases. So people of higher socioeconomic status, people who were healthier tended to use sauna. But I repeated the analysis, or I should be more clear. I had my team repeat the analysis in 2020, late 2019, and actually came to a different conclusion based on the strength of the data that in fact, there probably was causality there. And if that's the case, then it would imply that using sauna, at least within the parameters that the research suggested, might actually reduce the risk of chronic disease.

MG: Tell me more about that and what you learned and what we know about the actual, the health benefits of using a sauna from medical literature, from research that's been done.

PETER ATTIA: Well, I think, you know, it's always easiest to stop with the findings. And then what's a little harder to parse out sometimes is the why. But the findings would suggest an unambiguous association between sauna use at about the following frequency. So in, you know, in individuals using sauna at least four times a week, at least 20 minutes per session, and at least, 179 to 180°F. And I apologize that my Canadianness has, I've forgotten what that is in Celsius, but I'm guessing it's about 80°C. Maybe, you know, plus or minus. But so we're obviously talking about a very hot sauna here, at least 20 minutes, at least four times a week. And if an individual does that, the association is clear that there is, you know, on the order of a 30% reduction in the risk of cardiovascular disease and on the order of a 60% reduction in Alzheimer's disease. So then the next order question is, well, okay, what would be the mechanism for that if we were to believe that there's causality there? And I think here, it gets a little harder, but I would actually attribute three benefits, two of which are kind of technical, but one of which I think is interesting and not necessarily technical. So on the technical level, I think we're seeing an improvement in cardiovascular function. So there's this concept called hormesis or stress, where little bits of stress are very beneficial when we respond to them and recover from them. So the obvious example of this is exercise, right? Everything you do while you're exercising is actually stressful to the body, right? Your heart rate goes up, your blood pressure goes up. None of those things would be good for long periods of time. But it's when your body responds and recovers from those things that good things happen. Similarly, when you're in a sauna, your heart rate goes up, your blood pressure goes up, your body's working very hard to rid itself of the extra heat. And that hermetic stress, because it's just given in small doses, produces a positive effect during the recovery. The other thing that seems unique to sauna is something called heat shock proteins, which, as their name suggests, are proteins that are produced when the body is under a lot of heat. And those heat shock proteins you can think of as little sort of, I don't know, garbage disposal cleaning crews that walk around the body, cleaning up cellular debris, cells that are potentially, you know, on the down that are maybe going to become cancerous or things of that nature. But I actually want to emphasize a third benefit to sauna that I wouldn't have fully appreciated until I started becoming a regular user, which is sort of the pro social effects of sauna, right? So it's really a wonderful time to be completely detached from your electronics, you know, a TV, your phone, the stresses of life. And you're often doing it with people you enjoy being with. So for me, that means my wife. My wife and I are always in the sauna together. And it's a great time for us to talk. And we just tend to do it in the evening. So it's kind of part of the wind down ritual to produce a far better night of sleep. And I don't think you can discount the health benefits of that.

MG: You mentioned earlier that there was the possibility of minimizing risk of Alzheimer's. What more do we know about that?

PETER ATTIA: Well, again, at this point, it is just a very, very strong association. But again, you know, I don't think it's an accident that the two chronic diseases that seem to have an improvement of risk are cardiovascular disease and Alzheimer's disease, because those two diseases, more than any two chronic diseases, tend to travel together. And the old adage that what's good for the heart is good for the brain is almost universally true. And so I think what's happening is that the same factors that are improving circulation, reducing inflammation, you know, utilizing these heat shock proteins as we talked about, they’re having all of these favourable effects on the heart. And I think we're also seeing them have the same effects on the brain. And of course, Alzheimer's disease is a pretty complex disease. There's many paths to get there. You know, there are some that seem a little bit more genetically predetermined. There are some that seem a little more tied to the same types of risks of cardiovascular disease. And it might be that we're seeing just a subset of that disease respond favourably here.

MG: It's interesting in talking to you about this at a time when we're seeing stats that show that life expectancy in countries like Canada and the United States is trending downward in recent years. What do you make of that? Why is that happening?

PETER ATTIA: Well, I can't speak to Canada because I don't, I'm not as familiar with the stats, but I can speak to the United States. And it wouldn't surprise me if they're very similar. In the United States, you're absolutely correct. The past four years have seen a reduction in lifespan. There's two things going on there, one which is transient. So you have to sort of strip out the COVID deaths from that because that was obviously seen across the globe. But even when you strip out deaths from COVID, the US is still on a decline of life expectancy. And it's actually being driven by what we would call deaths of despair. So these are deaths attributed to alcohol use, accidental overdose and suicides. And in particular, it's the former two that are driving it the most. So alcohol related deaths and accidental overdose is more than suicide or deliberate self death. And so, again, we can speak to what that's about and what might be at the root of that. Is it a crisis of meaning, despair, other factors, isolation? I think there's probably a lot of things that factor into that. But it is worth noting that that trend began before COVID. So something was going on even pre-COVID, and potentially COVID exacerbated that. Certainly in terms of isolation, it did.

MG: In the face of that, your book “Outlive” has become a sensation. What do you think people are looking for?

PETER ATTIA: That's a great question. I suspect that one of the reasons the book has been as successful as it's been, which has actually been a very, you know, big surprise, but I think it's actually been an equal emphasis on health span to lifespan. So I think, you know, people might look at the title of the book and say, wow, you know, this is a book about living longer. You know, okay, that's interesting, but who cares? But really, I think the book is more about living better. And if you really focus on how to live better, so how to be more physically robust, how to be able to play with your grandkids later in life, how to be able to stay cognitively sharp, and perhaps most importantly, how to be emotionally healthy, then you're going to live a better life, full stop. And by the way, as a bonus, you're probably going to live five or seven years longer along the way. But I think it's this focus on health span, where you get some of the lifespan benefits for free. That might be what's resonating with people, because I don't think anybody out there in a sane state of mind would say, yeah, I'd like to live longer and prolong suffering, right? Nobody's really interested in lifespan without health span.

MG: What is a better way to think about who we want to be and what we want to be as the new year starts?

PETER ATTIA: I think one of the things to do is not tether it to the new year per say. I find it very difficult when I'm working with my patients to make or to help them or guide them into making sustainable behavioural changes. You know, the good news is that behavioural changes, whether it be, you know, exercise probably more than anything else, but certainly nutrition, sleep, etc., these things have a much greater impact on both the length and quality of your life than people realize. They’re far more potent tools than the suite pharmacopoeia that we learn about in medical school. And that's the good news. The bad news is they're actually harder to comply with, right? You know, it's hard enough for most people to just take their pill for blood pressure. There's about 60% compliance in something as simple as that. When it comes to these behaviour changes, it's obviously much less. But to me, the first step begins with a very clear understanding of your goals. And I think they can't be abstract, right? It can't be, yeah. I want to be healthy or I want to live longer. It has to be, no, picture exactly what you want to be doing in that last decade of your life, something I write about and call the Marginal Decade. And if you can picture what you want to happen in the marginal decade, who do you want to be with? What do you want to be doing? And I mean that very specifically, right? Like do you want to be able to sit on the floor with children? Do you want to be able to stand up on your own? Do you want to be able to walk up a flight of stairs carrying a bag of groceries? If you can go through that exercise very tangibly, then all of a sudden, the exercise you have to do 40 years sooner becomes far less abstract because it's in service of a very specific goal.

MG: I'm really glad to talk to you about this. Dr. Attia, thank you very much.

PETER ATTIA: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

MG: Dr. Peter Attia’s bestselling book is “Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity.” We spoke last year. That is The Current for this Friday. It’s the 14th of February. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. It is, of course, Valentine's Day. You know, I just said that, and somebody probably just remembered that in a panic. It's Valentine's. Sorry about that. This is a song for you. It's for the lovers. Grab your partner and dance slowly. It's Al Green and “Let's Stay Together.” I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend. And if you are like much of the country buried in snow, be careful with the shoveling. Maybe get out tobogganing and enjoy yourself. I'll talk to you on Monday. Take care.

[Song: “Let’s Stay Together” by Al Green]

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Friday, February 14, 2025 Episode Transcript

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