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Finding Cleo - Episode 9 Transcript

[theme]

Connie: I’m Connie Walker and this is Missing and Murdered: Finding Cleo, an investigative podcast by CBC News.

Connie: So we have about half an hour till we get to Johnny's place.

GPS Voice: Turn left at the traffic light.

Connie: I’m in a van with Christine. We’re on a highway in rural Pennsylvania. It’s the middle of the afternoon in July, but it’s dark and grey outside and starting to rain.

Connie: How are you feeling?

Christine: Pretty good. Yeah, I'm excited.

Connie: What are you thinking about?

Christine: Hope the rain doesn't kill my camera because I'd like to take some shots.

Connie: We’ve arranged for Christine to be here with us for the next few days. To get to see Johnny for the first time since she was a baby. Christine believes that this reunion, this entire trip really, is meant to be.

Christine: Cleo has... she has come to me in my dreams and I knew something was coming. And now today, all these things that have happened in the last week or last few months, it's really a culmination of everything that I've been waiting for many, many years.

Connie: But it’s not only the reunion with her brother she is excited about. We are also going to take Christine to New Jersey to visit Cleo’s grave and once and for all, to try to get the answers she’s been searching for about her sister.

Connie: What does it mean to you that all of this is happening now?

Christine: I have attachment disorder and OCD and all that other, you know, these other challenges. And so what's happened with me is sometimes, I'm unable to express my emotion, even though I'm feeling something on the inside. I think that's a survival thing. Like right now, I'm really trying hard to contain myself and not spoil the moment. You know, like I want to absorb everything. So I want to be, I want to be a hundred percent.

Connie: Are you feeling anxious?

Christine: Not so much anxious just... Oh, I don't know how to describe my feeling, it's just like overdue.

Connie: I feel nervous.

Christine: I feel overdue.

Connie: You feel overdue.

Christine: Yeah.

Connie: Yeah.

Christine: It's not like this man is a stranger to me. In some ways yes, in other ways no. You know, this is my brother. So I'm excited, even though it's raining.

Connie: It’s been months since we started this journey with Christine and Johnny. Along the way, we’re uncovering some difficult truths about their sister Cleo, about their mother Lillian, but also about their own childhoods.

Connie: What's it like to hear that and to learn that?

Christine: I know my mother wasn't perfect. I think our Creator gave my mother this range of children for a reason, right. I was given to her because I don't remember a lot. And that I wouldn't have that same harshness towards my mother. I was always forgiving and patient with her. I think she needed me on some level, and that's why the Creator made me the way I am. You know, like, the life I live now is a direct result of the things that were taken away from me. With me and my siblings, the reason we're so important or I'm so drawn to my siblings is because we all have the same experience. The same rejection, apprehension, isolation.

Connie: Right here. We're very close.

Connie: It’s just a few minutes later, but by the time we step out of the car, the rain has completely stopped

[door closes]

[roosters crowing]

Connie: We’re back at the farm where Johnny feels so comfortable. He’s in his favourite spot by the barn, waiting for his sister. We park in the driveway, so Christine has to walk a little ways to get to the barn. As soon as she rounds the corner, they see each other and a huge smile spreads across her face.

Johnny: She looks like my mom.

Connie: She still has to walk up a small hill before she gets to hug her brother.

Christine: Been waiting a long time.

Johnny: Hey, you.

Christine: Hi.

Johnny: Last I saw you, you were like six months old, I think. Hair's grey like mine and everything. It's good to see you. I'm glad you came down. Good to see you. You all right?

Christine: [emotional] Yeah.

Johnny: What's it been, 40-something years?

Christine: Yeah.

Johnny: It's good to see you, though.

Christine: You look like Brad.

Johnny: Do I? [laughs] That's good, right?

Christine: Yeah.

Johnny: Yeah. I'm glad you came down. I was like surprised that they were… said you were going to come down.

Connie: Christine just keeps nodding her head as Johnny talks. She’s staring up at him with this big smile on her face and tears in her eyes.

Christine: That's awesome.

Johnny: Can someone get water? Like cold water.

Christine: I hope you guys weren’t waiting long.

Johnny: That's a no. I got some drinks and everything.

Christine: Oh, cool.

Connie: Johnny and Christine have seen one another online many times. But in this face to face interaction, they seem to recognize each other in a different way. Seeing each other in person has brought to life memories of other family members. They see the Similarities and mannerisms that can only be explained by their DNA. The first thing Johnny said when he saw Christine is that she reminded him of their mother, Lillian.

Christine: You look like Brad.

Johnny: [laughs] I know, I've seen pictures of him and stuff. You all right?

[Christine cries]

Johnny: It's good to see you, though.

Christine: [emotional] He looks like my son.

Johnny: Yeah.

Christine: Can I sit down somewhere?

Johnny: Sure. Have a seat over there, if you want.

Connie: Christine sits down on a large straw bale next to Johnny in the barn. Before we arrived, Johnny’s friends joined a few tables together to make one long one. They’re covered with white tablecloths and fresh flowers. One of Johnny’s friends hands Christine a napkin and she dabs at her eyes. I notice Johnny’s adoptive sister Erica is there too. I met her the last time we were here. She is recording the reunion on her phone and posting it to Johnny’s Facebook page so that all of the Semaganis family back home can see this reunion.

Johnny: Last I saw you, you were like six months old I guess, maybe a little older.

Christine: Yeah.

Johnny: It was in that one group home we were at. It was a long time ago.

Christine: [murmurs in agreement]

Johnny: How old are you now again?

Christine: 46.

Johnny: 46. 45 years ago. That's a long time. You're born when Montreal won the Stanley Cup with Ken Dryden. Rookie of the year.

Christine: Oh, that's why I'm a Montreal Canadiens fan.

Johnny: Yeah, that's what it is, yeah.

[both laugh]

Christine: That's awesome! That's awesome!

Johnny: It's good to see you, though.

Christine: [murmurs in agreement]

Johnny: I have my friends around here.

Christine: That's awesome.

Johnny: I need moral support, so...

Connie: I’m standing a bit further back with Johnny's friends, watching this emotional scene unfold.

Johnny: This is Tom. Tom, he's my farmer friend here. He's the one that...

Brian: Hi, I'm Brian.

Johnny: That's Brian.

Brian: Nice to meet you.

Christine: Nice to meet you.

Tom: I'm Tom.

Christine: Hi, Tom.

Bob: I'm Bob.

Johnny: This is Bob, another friend of mine, I've known him for a while.

Bob: I've known John for a long time.

Kristen: I'm Kristen and this is Max. This is our son Max.

Christine: Hi, Max.

Johnny: My sister.

Christine: How you doing?

Kristen?: Say hi!

Max: Hi.

Christine: Handsome little guy. Hi!

Johnny: Awesome. I got stuff on the grill I was going to check it out.

Christine: Okay. Cool.

Tom: You hungry? Because we're gonna feast.

Johnny: I think these things are ready. I gotta throw more on.

Kristen: You know, you guys like two peas in a pod. I was like, "Oh my gosh!" Their tone of voice is the same. Their reactions are the same. That's so amazing.

Johnny: You'd think we're related or something.

[big laughs]

Kristen: You would think you were like brother and sister. It's so weird. [laughs]

Johnny: Who's hungry? I'm going to throw some more stuff on the grill.

Connie: The storm has passed, and we even see a little rainbow in the sky. Johnny and Christine step outside the barn and walk toward the field. The light is beautiful. The sun is shining and casting a warm glow on their faces. It’s the perfect time to document this moment.

[camera clicks]

Johnny: There's the sun.

Tom: John, you're awesome. You know, you always have that quiet face, but every now and then, you do smile.

Connie: Hey guys, look here for one sec. This is Christine's camera.

[clicks]

Connie: Johnny has his arm around Christine. They seem awkward and familiar at the same time. I think about what separated them as children and the years of heartache they both endured after. Their shared quest to Find Cleo has brought them together again. Today, it feels like a hopeful new chapter has begun.

Connie: Can I get one with my camera too?

Johnny: It turned out to be a nice day. See? You brought the nice weather with you.

Bob : That's because there's a great reunion, that's why. That's the reason for it.

Kristen: I know seriously, the rain stopped when you arrived.

Johnny: Yeah.

Kristen: It was just like the clouds broke.

Bob: It was pretty hard before.

Connie: Bob Desmarais is one of Johnny’s oldest friends in Lancaster.

Bob: Well, I always knew him as Chief. And for years, I didn't even know what his name was because everybody just referred to him as Chief. But I remember... [emotional] from the beginning he talked about Cleo and just not knowing what had happened to her. And how just it was always on his mind. From the very beginning. It's just so great to see the resolution to the mystery for him. It's been quite a journey for him and for his friends. I've known him all those years, you can tell really how I'm choked up by it.

Connie: It seems like Johnny has such a strong support system of friends here in Lancaster.

Bob: It was just ... We talked about all that has come out of what you guys have found, and how freeing it has been for him especially. And he said that to me one day, he said, like, "I can talk about Cleo in a different way and I cannot talk about it anymore." So that for him, it's just been so life changing and so amazing.

Connie: While we talk to Bob, Johnny goes back to the barbeque. Christine is sitting near him chatting with some of his friends. She’s been emotional this whole time, but Johnny seems to be taking it all in stride. He looks calm and content.

Bob: Well, he's not done processing this. I mean this is, it's decades. One of the things I thought was amazing was when you guys sent him the Facebook photo or you sent him a photo of the gravestone. And he put it on Facebook for the rest of us to see. [choked up] One of the sweetest things he said was that we can't fault that family. They loved her, too. And that was so...amazingly, emotionally mature. I was just blown away by that. I'm like, wow. Here's a man I've known all these years. And I know there was depth to him but that's a level that many of us can't get to, that forgiveness.

[sizzling barbeque, chatter]

Johnny: Burgers are done.

Connie: Smell good.

Johnny: I made them earlier, I was here, I went to the store and everything. I tried to do normal things. It was hard, it was, I even took a nap this morning, which is very unusual, because I had to, because I was like, ha, what's…

Connie: Were you feeling nervous, or why? Did he say he was nervous?

Woman: Yeah.

Connie: Johnny says dinner is ready. Everyone eats and visits and then it begins to get dark. The barbeque embers are fading and most people have left. But Johnny and Christine are still talking inside the barn. It’s only been a few hours, but they already seem more comfortable with one another.

Johnny: It was awesome like I said I was a little nervous this morning but...

Tom: A little nervous, c’mon!!

[laughter; slap on the back]

Johnny: Seems like I'm reading about someone else's life so I'm supposed to turn the TV on and be like, oh, they've got an interesting life.

Christine: So my flight was at 9:00 so I got to the airport at 7:15 and the porter airport staff wasn't even there until 8:30! So I was there all by myself for a long time, but there was a shiatsu massage chair so I tried that out, used up my spare change getting a massage. So it wasn't all bad. [laughs]

Connie: So you guys both did some self-care today. Johnny had a nap, you had a massage.

Johnny: Washed my hair. Got all gussied up.

Christine: [laughs] Awesome, awesome. Okay, but I'm ready for a nap now. Ready to sleep.

Woman: Can we give you these flowers?

Christine: Oh yeah! Thank you.

Connie: Johnny and Christine say goodnight. Even though they’re going to see one another again tomorrow, it’s hard for them to say goodbye.

Johnny: I'm glad you came down. Love you, too. I’m glad you came down, though.

Christine: [emotional] Thank you for the flowers. This was one of the happiest days of my life. Thank you. This is beautiful here.

Johnny: Yes, it is.

Connie: A couple of days later, we drive Christine to Marlton, New Jersey, where Cleo lived before she died. Christine is determined to get as much information about Cleo as she can. She is going to try to access Cleo’s death certificate and we’ve already put in a request for her police file. Jill Slimm - Cleo’s childhood friend who we met at the funeral home has also agreed to meet Christine and to talk to her about Cleo. We go back to the same busy diner where we met her before.

Waitress: Hi I’m Sam, I’ll be your waitress this evening. Can I get you started off with some drinks?

Connie: And this time, she is okay with us recording it.

Christine: So first of all, I want to thank you for taking this time out to meet with me.

Jill: Oh, you're welcome. It's a privilege, really. Like at first when I met these guys, I was so - it was just very overwhelming, very overwhelming. And I've had much more time now just like to process everything. So were you the baby?

Christine: Yes.

Jill : Okay.

Connie: Christine starts at the beginning and tells Jill about her long search for Cleo and all of the roadblocks she’s hit along the way.

Christine: Because you know, the government of Saskatchewan and the government in New Jersey both told me that you know she's passed on, why does matter? This kind of attitude.

Jill: That's not nice.

Connie: Jill pulls out a tattered white yearbook and sets it on the table in front of Christine. It’s from Marlton Middle School in 1978. The year Cleo died.

Jill: So I'm sorry it's in terrible shape. I guess they showed you the picture that was in this, but this is the actual page of Cleo's memorial. I mean, it's not much. It was an eighth-grade yearbook put together by students, you know? I remember the beginning of the school year, she had just gotten braces on. So she refused to - she had the most gorgeous smile. And then she got braces and she absolutely refused to smile anymore. It was funny, she was - she was always covering her teeth up all the time. As I was too, I had braces, I did the same thing, you know. But she was really funny. Just really, really funny. I also remember sitting around, we all were sitting discussing, how come you don't have pimples and we're all covered in pimples? Why is your skin so pretty and ours is not? We were all trying to figure that out.

Connie: The last time we talked to Jill, she refused to tell us how Cleo had died. Now that we know the truth what happened, I wonder if Jill knows anything else about the months and days before Cleo’s death that could shed some light on why she took her own life.

Connie: Did you have any idea when you knew Cleo that she was going through a hard time herself?

Jill: No. I had no idea. Is Cleopatra the name that your parents gave to her?

Christine: Yes.

Jill: And then I guess-

Christine: She was a fan of Elizabeth Taylor.

Jill: Okay.

Christine: And she thought Elizabeth Taylor was so beautiful in that movie.

Jill : I wish I could tell you more.

Christine: Oh, you told me more than I expected. I'm grateful.

Jill: I wish I could.

Christine: I feel a lot of peace knowing where she is. I know that my kids won't have to worry about unanswered questions. I still have some more questions and I'm pretty persistent and I'll get my questions answered. So I feel a sense of completion, but I'd still like to tie up every single loose end.

Jill: I'm sure.

Christine: And if anything, you know, I'm really happy that Cleo will not be forgotten, that her story is told.

Jill: Yeah.

Connie: But this story isn't just about Cleo anymore. It’s about her mother Lillian and all of her siblings: Johnny, Mark, April, Annette, and Christine. And the collective toll that the SIxties Scoop has had on all of their lives.

Jill: I really appreciate you letting me be a part of this.

Christine: Thank you so much. Thank you for giving me those answers.

Jill: It’s a privilege to help you.

Connie: We say goodbye to Jill in the parking lot of the diner and watch her pull away.

Connie: So what was it like to talk to one of Cleo's friends?

Christine: It was a lot more than I expected. It was nice to see a little glimpse of what her personality was like because that was that's a big question. You know, like not only did my sister exist, but what was she like, right. And it's a big comfort to know that she had friends that she was loved.

Connie: It’s dark in the parking lot. The only light is from a streetlight above us and the headlights from cars on the busy road behind us.

Connie: Was there anything surprising or shocking about what Jill told you?

Christine: A little bit. Well, yes and no. Like. I know with my own issues and dealing with the separation and whatnot, I was pretty quiet, too, right. I didn't let anybody know, right. I just handled it by myself because I was already physically by myself, you know, like being a different race and being so different. So it didn't really surprise me that her friends did not know. So that was... that kind of made sense.

Connie: Like what she was going through?

Christine: Yeah.

Connie: Or what might have led her to taking her own life?

Christine: I know exactly what led to her take her own life, it's being isolated and having a memory of, you know, coming from somewhere and being unable to plug in or to fully accept the new life that was laid out before you. You know. And knowing that you came from somewhere else. And for her to deal with that kind of loss with no explanation and no choice and to lose her mother. You know, that's, everybody loves their mother, no matter if their mother was good or bad. Everybody loves their mother. Everybody loves their father. So, you know, and I think the pain of her losses was just a little too much for a 13-year-old. You know, I can't imagine.

Connie: Was there anything comforting about what Jill told you about Cleo?

Christine: I feel I got to know Cleo a little bit better as a person. Because it's one thing to know you have a sister, but it's another thing to know that she was funny and tall and beautiful and had a great smile and you know, that kind of thing. Cleo is a little bit more than just a little one-inch picture on my wall now, right. She's somebody I love very much. So no amount of time changes that, right. It wasn't just me, it was all the people that knew her. My cousins, my grandmother, her friends. She was a loved little girl. She still is. [crying]

Connie: I ask Christine if there are any questions about Cleo that she still wants answers to.

Christine: I want to know exactly what happened the day she died. I want to know who was in her life closer to the end. I want to know as she was showing me in her dreams.

Connie: Do you ever worry that finding all the answers might be too painful?

Christine: There are things in this world that I wish I had not seen. There are... I don't think there's any horrific thing in this world that I have not experienced myself. And I think that I'm her sister because they know I'm relentless. And I won't stop until I get those answers. I have some answers but I want more.

Connie: So there's an option to try and get Cleo's death certificate, is that something you want to do?

Christine: I'll get it. I’ll get it. One way or another. Like, this journey, these last few months-- actually these last few years, I think everything in my life has happened, you know, to prepare me for this and what's to come in the future, right. And When I was 12 years old hiding under my kitchen table in the dark, I realized that nothing was going to save me from the abuse that was occurring to me at that time. I had reached a point that Cleo could not get past. [crying] So I thought, "No one's going to help me. What do I do? No one is going to save me." So I just decided, you know what? Survive it. And in the days to come, there will come an opportunity where I can change things and make things better. Nothing's going to kill me. So I know why she did that. I know why.

Connie: Christine wipes away her tears. Once again, I’m at a loss for words. I know that she’s referring to sexual abuse she endured as a child. It’s such a devastating revelation, I don’t want to keep probing because these are obviously painful memories for Christine. But she doesn’t need any prompting. She is ready to share her truth.

Christine: You know, when I was 12 years old, I came home from school one day and I hid underneath the kitchen, locked the door pulled the curtains. And took the phone because you know, it had a long cord attached to the wall. And I was under my kitchen table and I knew that whatever was happening to me shouldn't have been happening to me. I knew it wasn't right. Nobody had to tell me that. So I was looking through the phone book wondering who will help me. [crying] And so I found the human rights commission. I didn't know who else to call. So I called the lady and I said, "Something is happening to me that it shouldn’t be happening.

Can you save me?" She gave me shit, the lady on the other end. She said, "Does your mother know you're calling?" I said, "No." She says, "Well, how old are you?" and I told her 12. She said, "Well you shouldn't be calling, you’re wasting my time. You need to talk to your mother," and she hung up on me. Then it was a few hours until my mom came home and it was then that I just like had to think you know like, is this going to kill me or do I just continue on and wait for better days. So I just decided that even though as painful as it was, that I was just going to wait for better days. But it's a hopeless feeling to know that no one is going to save you, no one is going to help you. And you have to do it yourself. [crying] You can't tell anybody because I was an expendable child. But then the Creator gave me a child. And more children. And whatever was taken from me, I took back. Everything that I went through, my kids will never suffer. Or my granddaughter. No child that comes after me will ever be lost again. [crying] So that’s why I did this. So that's why I'm here.

Connie: I know I’m supposed to maintain my composure, but I can’t help it. I’m crying, too. We all hug Christine in the parking lot and call it a night.

[solemn music]

Connie: I think again of what April and Annette told their parents about the sexual abuse they experienced as children in foster care and I think of Raven Sinclair, the woman we met who’s studying SIxties Scoop survivors. Her research is still in the preliminary stages, but she told us the majority of the adoptees she’s interviewed were also sexually abused as children. I can’t help but wonder, did Cleo go through this? Was there any truth to the story that her family heard about an assault while hitchhiking home to Saskatchewan? The next morning, we head to the Evesham police department to see about our request to access Cleo’s police file.

Connie: Hello! Are you Rosenberg?

Brian: Yes, I am.

Connie: I'm Connie Walker from the CBC.

Brian: Hello. How are you doing? I can give you an update on where we're at. We do have to give it to the county. Because the way it was investigated, we need approval from the prosecutor's office. So you submitted the OPRA request.

Connie: Yeah.

Brian: The requests went to our upper management.

Connie: Lieutenant Rosenberg says that he needs approval from a county prosecutor before he can show us Cleo’s file or even her death certificate.

Brian: I also spoke with the registrar upstairs. Even in New Jersey, unless it's to a family member, I cannot release even the copy of the death certificate.

Connie: Even if it's not certified?

Brian: Correct. I called her back and I asked her yesterday specifically. She said if it's a family member yes, but not if it's a non-family member.

Connie: What about if it's a biological family member?

Brian: That's what I said, I said brother siblings? She said, yeah, that's fine.

Connie: So, as Cleo’s sister, Christine can try to access Cleo’s death certificate from the county and maybe even her police file. But before we go that route, we want to try to talk to Cleo’s adoptive family.

Connie: Okay, I just want to make sure everything’s good.

Jennifer: How’s your battery power?

Connie: It's good, but you have that extra case, right?

Jennifer: Yep.

Connie: So we should make sure to bring that in. All right, okay, let’s go.

Connie: It’s been a few months since we were last her and met Mrs. Madonia. At the time, she told us she was having major health issues. We have been trying to reach her again since we began planning this trip to see if she might want to meet with Christine or if she would do an interview with us. But she’s never responded to our emails or phone calls. We tried to reach Cleo’s adoptive brother without any luck. We also try to get in touch through another relative and the library where Mrs. Madonia volunteers. We don’t hear back from her, so again, we knock on her door.

[knocking]

Connie: But when we arrive, Mrs. Madonia is not happy to see us. The people we contacted had let her know and she is upset and annoyed at us for trying so hard to reach her. She says she is nearly recovered from her illness, but she’s changed her mind. She feels we’ve invaded her privacy and is adamant that she doesn’t want to talk to us anymore.

Connie: Oh, my goodness

[getting back in the car]

Connie: I feel terrible. Holy shit. [sighs] I think we should leave.

Jennifer: Yeah.

Connie: We leave her house feeling terrible that we’ve caused her more grief, and disappointed that she won’t meet with Christine. But we respect her wishes not to be involved. We know Cleo took her own life, but Christine wants to know exactly what happened the day Cleo died. But without seeing the police file or talking to Mrs. Madonia, I wonder if we will be able to find out any more. Is this as far as we can go in Cleo’s story? We head to the township’s registrar’s office to see if Christine can get Cleo’s death certificate. She’s Cleo’s biological sister, but she doesn’t have any documentation or proof of that. Will her word be enough?

Christine: Whereabouts?

Connie: 201, so maybe here. Might be right here, actually.

Connie: We step into the room and walk up to a large counter. The clerk comes to see us right away and Christine has rehearsed what she wants to say.

Christine: Hi, my name is Christine Cameron.

Receptionist: Christine.

Christine: Yes. Hi. I'm here from North Bay, Ontario, Canada. I'm here to request records and any information you may have regarding my sister Cleo Madonia.

Receptionist: Okay. She passed away?

Christine: Yes, in 1978.

Receptionist: Okay. Here, in Marlton?

Christine: Yes. Yes.

Receptionist: Okay. Do you have a driver's license?

Christine: Yes, I do.

Receptionist: Okay. And I also need you to complete this information. You would just fill in her name here, date of death, her father's name and her mother's name by her mother's maiden name.

Connie: Her mother’s maiden name? I don’t know what that is. I’m worried we’re about to hit another bureaucratic brick wall

Connie: Yeah, I wonder if it's biological or probably adopted name, what do you think?

Receptionist: Oh! I thought this name looked familiar. The police department helped you out?

Connie: Yeah.

Receptionist: Okay.

Connie: Do you want to write your mom's name in there, as well? I don't know if that's at all. I'm not sure, what do you think? We could ask her.

Connie: Christine hands back the form back to the woman across the counter. She looks it over carefully but stops at the section about Cleo’s mother.

Receptionist: Oh, what's her maiden name?

Christine: I don't know her maiden name, I don't know how to spell it.

Receptionist: Okay. I'll sort of help you.

Christine: Okay.

Receptionist: But you have to tell me and I'll tell you. Let me find it because it's an old certificate.

Connie: I'm not sure what Christine is going to say. I don’t know her maiden name and I don’t think she does, either.

Receptionist: Never mind, 'cause it’s not...They have dashes. Whoever gave the information didn't know the mother's name. Okay, why don’t you have a seat? It’s going to take me a couple of minutes to shrink it down.

Christine: Okay, sounds good.

Connie: I’m surprised. It looks like even without that information about her adoptive family or really any documentation showing they are biological sisters, Christine is going to get Cleo’s death certificate.

Connie: I feel a bit nervous.

Christine: No, not me at all, I knew I was going to get it.

Connie: How do you know?

Christine: I just know. I knew there would be no trouble. She wants us to, she wanted to be found. She wants to know. Paving the way.

Receptionist: Here's the death certificate. Thank you very much. Here's your driver's license. I'll put the receipt in here.

Connie: Let's go down the elevator. So you-- right now, you're holding an envelope with Cleo's death certificate.

Christine: I knew I was going to get it. I knew this morning.

Connie: Are you nervous to read it? When are you going to read it?

Christine: Oh, in the parking lot in good light. Don't want to be too excited and then have somebody tackle me and take it away. [chuckles]

Connie: Are you worried about someone taking it away?

Christine: Sometimes.

Connie: The registrar's office is in the same building as the police department. As we pass through the lobby, we see Marnie who is waiting for an update from Lieutenant Rosenberg about Cleo’s police file.

Marnie: He had the file in his hand the first time he came out.

Connie: How big is it?

Marnie: It's thick.

Christine: Okay.

Connie: Christine can’t wait any longer to find out exactly how Cleo died. She opens the envelope with Cleo’s death certificate.

Connie: What does it say?

Christine: Massive cerebral, acute massive cerebral haemorrhage, self-inflicted. Cerebral laceration, gunshot wound of head.

Connie: Cleo died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound on December 22, 1978, at her home in Marlton, New Jersey. We don’t have much time to process this because Rosenberg is on his way out and Christine is still worried that someone might come and take the document away.

Christine: Okay. Could somebody run this out to the truck first?

Connie: Okay, sure, I can take it out. Do you want me to take it out?

Christine: Yes, please.

Connie: Or why don't you take it out?

Marnie: Yeah, yeah.

Connie: Okay.

Christine: Yeah, run all that out.

Connie: She's worried someone's going to take it away from her now.

Christine: Run it out, please.

Connie: I guess we can sit down and wait for Rosenberg? Do you want to?

[door shuts]

Connie: As soon as Marnie gets back, Rosenberg appears.

Brian: He hasn't gotten back to me yet.

Marnie: No? Okay.

Christine: Yeah, I would really be appreciative of any information that you can share with me and my siblings.

Brian: Once they give me the A-OK. You know, I have no problem releasing it, it's just the law. I have to wait until the attorney gets back to us.

Connie: Rosenberg says they are still waiting for permission to release Cleo’s police file. But in the meantime, he is able to give us the names of two retired officers who investigated her death.

Marnie: Thanks so much. So, Tom, that is…

Brian: Bresnan. And John Wainright.

Marnie: And do you think that they're in Marlton?

Brian: I believe so.

Marnie: Cherry Hill or...?

Brian: No, I believe they're in Marlton.

Connie: Rosenberg says that when he spoke to the county prosecutor, they were shocked that the file was even still in existence. It’s their policy to destroy all files that are closed after five years. Cleo’s file should have been shredded in 1983. He has no idea why they still have it. We head back to our van and Christine starts goes over the death certificate in detail.

Christine: Immediate cause of death is acute massive cerebral haemorrhage due to a consequence of cerebral laceration as a consequence of a gunshot wound to the head. No-- oh, yes, an autopsy was performed.

Connie: It’s hard to believe this is where we would end up. After hitting brick walls with governments in Saskatchewan and New Jersey, Christine is now holding a copy of Cleo’s death certificate.

Christine: Was ruled a suicide. Self-inflicted.

Connie: Although this is more information than she ever expected, it’s not enough for Christine.

Christine: So yes, I would like to get some information on her police file just to say that, you know, just to affirm that she wanted to come home on several occasions, right? I think it exists for a reason. I don't believe it's a coincidence that it still exists. I think there are some things that she wants us to know.

Connie: What was your reaction when he said they're usually destroyed after five years but they still have this one?

Christine: Yeah, I knew that they would have something, right. Because even the last few weeks is not a series of coincidences. It's things that she wants us to know. I sometimes get this overwhelming feeling of just unshakeable faith that everything is going to happen and I don't need to worry.

Connie: She only had a few minutes with Lieutenant Rosenberg, but Christine feels hopeful after talking to him.

Christine: Yes, you're a police officer, but there is humanity in you that wants to help us, so just make it happen. It's basically what I was trying to tell him. So I think we'll hear from him at the latest tomorrow morning but I'm thinking probably around 2:00 or 3:00 today.

Connie: Do you think he got that message from you?

Christine: Oh yeah, I think so. And if not for me, then from Cleo. You know, she shouldn't be forgotten or swept under the rug, and this is why I fight so hard. So I feel a lot of satisfaction today, and there's more satisfaction to come.

[car doors shut]

Connie: We find the address for one of the officers that Lieutenant Rosenberg said worked on Cleo’s case back in 1978. We have no idea if he’s home or if he’ll even remember her case, but we decide it can’t hurt to ask.

[door opens]

John Wainwright: Hi!

Christine: Hi! My name is Christine Cameron. I come to you from North Bay, Ontario, Canada. I'm here researching the story, my sister. My sister is Cleo Madonia, she passed away in 1978 and I understand you're a respected member of the police force and I was wondering if you could share any information with me.

John: About what?

Christine: About my sister's death and the events leading up to her death.

John: And what was your sister's name again?

Christine: Cleo Madonia. She was a Native American girl.

Connie: Cleopatra was her full name.

Christine: Yes.

John: How old was she when she died?

Christine: 13.

John: She died over in the woodstream section. She committed suicide.

Christine: Yes.

Connie: It was almost 40 years ago, but this retired officer remembers Cleo.

John: Like I said, around 13, 14 years old.

Joan: Hi.

John: This is my wife, Joan.

Connie: Hi, Joan.

John: And Cleo was in middle school at the time. And from what I understood, she was kind of troubled. And I don't know if that was something that was from the school, that she was being bullied or whatever, but they didn't recognize bullying then, or whether or not it was just, you know, she was just distraught over family situation. Because I think she was adopted…

Christine: Yes.

John: ..or she was a foster child or something like that.

Connie: I’m surprised that Wainwright remembers so much about Cleo’s case so quickly. But he tells us that he was one of the first officers on the scene at Cleo’s house after they got the call.

Connie: What do you remember about that day?

John: I believe that it was like… could have been like when school was out, or the middle of the day.

Connie: Yeah.

John: That rings a bell. And I do remember. I believe she used a firearm to take her own life.

Christine: Yeah, I do have her death certificate.

Wainwright: But if you go to the-- have you been to the Evesham PD?

Connie: We explain to him that we’ve been to the police department and Lieutenant Rosenberg is still working on getting us permission. I wonder again why Cleo’s file is so thick if they knew right away it was a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

Connie: Would there be much in the file if it was a suicide?

John: Well yeah, there might be, there would be the initial report.

Christine: Was she found at home?

John: Yes, she was found up in her room. Because I know I was the supervisor that day. So if I wrote the report, I mean, I would make it as detailed as possible.

Connie: What would you have been investigating at that point if she had been found with a self-inflicted gunshot wound?

Wainwright: Well we would first find out, you know, is it really a suicide or was there foul play involved. But you know it will tell you whether or not she was, she had killed herself with the firearm, whether someone else did it. Yeah, the autopsy could tell that.

Connie: Do you remember what Cleo's autopsy said?

Wainwright: No, I don't.

Connie: We tell him what her family believed about Cleo’s death and about the article we found in the paper the last time we were here.

Connie: I don't know if this rings a bell at all, but about three weeks before Cleo died, a teenager from Cherry Hill was hitchhiking on the road and she was picked up by somebody and sexually assaulted but not killed. She survived.

John: See, I don't I don't recall that.

Christine: Because we were told that she was raped and murdered in Arkansas. So we were looking in the wrong state.

Connie: And that she'd been hitchhiking and that she had been sexually assaulted.

John: I don't remember that one.

Connie: ‘Cause detective Rosenberg had indicated that there were some similarities between what Christine had heard about how her sister died and what was in the file, but he didn't...

John: Well, you know, those are all underlying facts. I mean, if in fact she was molested or assaulted or sexually abused by someone else and this was playing on her mind, then this is what caused her to take her own life. I'm sure that in the report somewhere is either from the county or from what our detectives found out would have been, you know, in the report.

Connie: Talking to Wainwright and hearing his memories of the day Cleo died only makes me want to read the police report even more.

Connie: Do you remember if she was a victim of sexual violence?

John: No, I don't. And the reason I remember her is because of her name, Cleo. I mean, it's not a common name.

Connie: Do you have any-- do you remember having any suspicion that it wasn't self-inflicted or that there was foul play?

John: No. Only because she was a middle school kid and the initial information was that she was having some, I guess, some thoughts about either because she was adopted… well, you know, she was probably having some real severe psychological issues either about being adopted or not being able to find her birth parents, and things like that.

Christine: On behalf of my siblings, I'm really grateful for you taking this opportunity and sharing with me. I really, really appreciate that.

John: I'm glad I could shed some light on it for you.

[mixed goodbyes and thank yous]

Connie: We leave Wainwright’s house and head back to the van. Marnie is waiting with some news.

Marnie: Literally as you were walking into his house, I got an e-mail from Lieutenant Rosenberg.

Christine: Yeah, I told you between 2:00 and 3:00, he would call.

Connie: What'd he say?

Marnie: Saying we have authorization to go and look at the file right now.

Connie: Oh my God.

Christine: Because I knew, I had the idea that we were on the step, that he would call while we were there.

Marnie: Just as you were walking in, I got the message from him and he's there for the next hour and he said we can come in person and look at them, and he'll give us copies.

Christine: Remember though, I told you, between 2:00 and 3:00.

Connie: You did.

Connie: Christine has been adamant all along that Cleo is the one who started her on this journey, the one who visits her in her dreams and wants her to find the answers. She feels this isn't just another coincidence, but really part of Cleo's plan.

Christine: Okay, we'd better hurry up!

Connie: We are on our way to see the police file into Cleo's death. What would it say? Would it tell us what was going on in her life? After months on this investigation, searching for answers, and being so invested in the life of a little girl I never knew, I am almost afraid to find out what is in that report. What would it tell us about the day Cleo died? What would it tell us about the weeks leading up to her death? It’s only a few minutes before we’re back at the police station.

Connie: Are you at all worried about seeing something you don’t want to?

Christine: No, there’s nothing that can surprise me.

Connie: We head into the police station and another officer, Lieutenant Friel, is waiting for us.

Connie: Hello. How are you?

Friel: Come on in.

Connie: I'll follow you, Christine.

Connie: Friel leads us past a locked door and into a small, windowless room.

Friel: I have paperwork for you. This is yours.

Connie: He hands me a stack of documents about half an inch thick. This looks like the typewritten police report we’ve been hoping to see.

Connie: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Connie: I’m holding the file, but my eyes are on another smaller stack of papers still in his hands. They look handwritten.

Friel: This is the originals. What are you looking for, here? I was given this, there's copies of all of them.

Connie: The paper looks yellowed and faded. Is that Cleo’s handwriting?

Connie: What are these, are these letters that she wrote?

Friel: Lieutenant Rosenberg, would you be able to assist us where these letters have come from?

Brian: There are some notes that from what I've read, they are from classmates that she had written friends in school and that they were aware of a lot of what was going on. That's what it seemed. It was basically just amongst friends, classmates, at the time.

Connie: Okay, are you ready to read some these?

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Connie: Can you read them out loud?

Christine: Hey Speed, hi! Making...

Connie: We sit down at the table and Christine starts reading some of the letters.

Christine: [reading] I am about to come over on Saturday...

Connie: They’re hard to understand. The writing is a little faded in spots and the handwriting is messy. But this is Cleo.

Christine: [reading] My brother's birthday is today. He's 15 or 16. I'm not quite sure. He’s an asshole. [chuckles]

Connie: She wrote these letters in the police report. Somehow, almost miraculously, this file still exists and forty years later, Cleo’s baby sister is sitting in a police station hearing directly from her.

Christine: [reading] On Saturday, let's go to the mall. Do you want to? And let's go see "Up in Smoke." I saw Barry and I said hi. He is so, so, so cute. I think he's cute. My grandmother's in the hospital, she has to get an operation.

Connie: It’s so strange to be here with Christine reading letters Cleo and her friend wrote to one another. There’s one dated December 10th, just 12 days before she died.

Connie: Why does it say…. Barry is underlined. I love Barry, it's all underlined and...

Connie: Who’s Barry?

Christine: I'm just skimming through them.

Connie: That one’s to Lori?

Marnie: Lori.

[paper rustle]

Marnie: Does it say on the code sheet who Speed is?

Connie: No.

Connie: Who’s Lori? And Speed?

Marnie: Because there's something here about my mom says she'll forbid me to see you.

Connie: She says, "I'm going to have a gun to protect me from rape."

[solemn music]

Connie: It feels like we’re looking at a picture of Cleo’s life in New Jersey through a foggy glass, and the more we read, the clearer it becomes. By the end of the report, we know the answers to the questions that Christine has been searching for. We know what happened in the weeks, days and even minutes before Cleo took her own life.

Connie: Finding Cleo is written and hosted by me, Connie Walker. It’s produced by Marnie Luke and Jennifer Fowler. Mieke Anderson is our audio producer and Heather Evans is our senior producer. Special thanks to Yasmine Mathurin for her editing help. Subscribe to Finding Cleo on Apple Podcasts or your other favourite podcast app. For a glimpse at Cleo’s letters from the police file, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/findingcleo.

TRANSCRIPT: Missing & Murdered - Season 2, EP 9

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