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The AIH transcript for March 20, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Net losses. B.C. harvesters of the "geoduck" -- a brawny, burrowing clam that's popular in Asia -- are bracing for a big financial hit, thanks to new Chinese tariffs on Canadian seafood.

CH: Deprived of reprieve. Ottawa tried to stop China from executing four Canadian citizens -- to no avail. And Beijing ignored our guest's pleas as well -- to his frustration and sorrow.

NK: Electric mayhem. A Tesla backer weighs in on Elon Musk's chaotic and controversial role in Washington -- and the growing protests targeting his E-V company.

CH: Under scrutiny. When an Antarctic iceberg breaks off and exposes the seabed beneath, a team of scientists become the first people to take a peek -- and find it teeming with more life than they'd ever imagined.

NK: Turn your head and Kafkaesque. At first, companies were unhappy to suddenly share the name of the evil company from "Severance" -- but now, businesses named Lumon see opportunity looming.

CH: And...giving himself a LEGO up. A Washington, D.C. homeowner created an exact scale model of his house out of LEGO for fun -- but now his real estate agent is using it to attract potential buyers.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday Edition. Radio that hears he's doing a bricks business.

Part 1: Seafood Harvester, Tesla Finances, Uncharted Ocean Exploration

Seafood Harvester

Guest: Terry Keith

CH: It's not the most widely-known fishery. But B.C.'s geoduck harvest is a very lucrative one. The unique clam, which you have to see to believe, is harvested by underwater divers. And more than 90 per cent of the catch is exported to China, and harvesters can fetch as much $20 a pound for it. But as China imposes a 25 per cent tariff on Canadian seafood today, the industry is bracing for a big hit. Terry Keith is a geoduck harvester. We reached him in Prince Rupert, B.C.

NK: Terry, now that these these tariffs on, on geoduck have landed, I mean, this is a reality now for all of you, how are you dealing with it?

TERRY KEITH: Well, currently the way we're dealing with it is not, not currently fishing. In our industry we have annual quotas. And there's a few boats left here with me in Prince Rupert that have yet to achieve our quota. We have a few weeks left, and now this has hit. So currently, we're tied up waiting for some clarity from our, our buyers in Vancouver, which are, essentially are, you know, they are the exporter. I think it's causing us some anxiety. And so, we're, we're kind of waiting today. Hopefully, today or tomorrow we'll get some idea of what the new, you know, what the new reality is for our price. And how much, basically how much our pay is cut.

NK: What, what are you, what are you thinking that reality might be in the next day or two?

TK: Well, you know, if the tariffs, we, on a little background, just in the last month alone, we've had a couple of price, a couple of months in that we've had a few price drops in our industry, which we haven't seen in years. It's been pretty stable and good pricing. But in the last, this year, in the last few months here, it's been very, very unstable, and we've had some price cuts. So, we've already seen a significant price cut. And this one, if it's 25 per cent, we're going to see, you know, I don't know about a total of a 50 per cent drop in our price, and incomes -- subsequent incomes -- from that. So, it'll be quite significant. So, what we're waiting for is to see if this tariff will come at the cost of just the fisherman, or will it be shared between the fisherman and the importer, or the customer over there?

NK: A lot of people are probably just learning about geoduck for the first time as we have this conversation. They're a type of clam, very specialized market. China is your main market. Can you just tell our listeners what they look like, maybe even what they taste like, so they can get a sense in their mind?

TK: They're, you know, they're a bivalve mollusk, of course, that is burrowed in the sand, or so the substrate -- could be a mix of sand, gravel, and things. But, and they grow to be quite a large size. It depends whether it's cooked or eaten raw, but it's quite crunchy and very rich in flavour. They're, they're, they're a highly regarded delicacy for not only their, their flavour, and the texture, and their look. But, you know, the, the shape of it is very, well, let's just say relatively phallic looking, I guess. And it comes from Canada in a very, you know, our product from Canada to China is always desirable. We have a history of good, clean water, and fresh product, and it's just a lot of return on your, on your, you know, on the product. There's a lot of, there's, there's a lot of meat on that geoduck on the siphon, and on the body meat, and then even on the inside. There's many, many ways to cook it. So, there's lots of reasons why it's highly regarded. So, it's, it's one of the top seafood, luxury seafood items.

NK: With all of the concern and uncertainty about tariffs from China and the United States, we've certainly been hearing a lot of talk from politicians about breaking down, you know, inter-provincial trade barriers, but also diversifying international markets for Canadian products. Is that a possibility, a realistic one for geoduck?

TK: The way we see it, it's not, it's not a realistic possibility. Our, our main market is China. In fact, I think we're at, you know, Around the 95, 96 per cent of our, of our total catch yearly is Chinese market. We've, we've developed this over decades. And, you know, great relationship with the exporters and our importers here, and, and, and the trade has been going great. Perhaps we did rely too much on China as our, but it just developed that way. The demand is not strong enough. We've, we have experimented with other markets, and trying to develop other markets by attending seafood shows, and getting contacts, and shipping small amounts to different markets around the world and different cities. The demand just would not be enough to, to ship. We're certainly hoping that this cannot, maybe that, maybe there's a chance this will not be in place for a long time. Perhaps the Canadian government can, can do something about this.

NK: There is tension, as our listeners have been hearing on many fronts in this relationship between China and Canada. The tariffs are certainly part of it. A response to Canadian tariffs on Chinese made E-Vs, as we know. What would you like to see the Canadian government do?

TK: I understand there's more, there's more at play here than just, you know, it's not so easy to just lift it. But there's reasons why they imposed a tariff on E-Vs from China. But I'm not. I'm not fully sure why. I've been reading about it, and I do listen. But overall, that's what we'd like to see is some negotiations. Maybe we can lessen the impact or remove it altogether. But just something, you know, to help. We rely quite heavily, almost 100 per cent, you know, on the Chinese market. But other seafood, other products, other fisheries in, in Canada, it's going to affect all of us.

NK: In the meantime, as you wait for more answers to see what happens, you have crew members, obviously. How many do you have on your team, and what kinds of conversations are you having? What will this mean for them?

TK: Well, we're expecting, obviously, a lower price. So, you know, and we're not just talking a smaller, it makes a, that's kind of our, our margins, you know? And it takes away the profit margin kind of thing. So, it's, I've had a discussion with my crew members. We have three people, and they, three crew in there. So, it's, it's not a large crew. But, you know, their, their expected paycheque will be significantly smaller, and that will affect their bills and, and the things that, the decisions they make. And, you know, if it was just one trip where we have a blip in the price, we can handle that. But if it's, if this is a long-term thing in the future, it's going to be maybe devastating for some, but certainly going to impact all of us.

NK: Terry, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you for your time.

TK: Oh, thanks for listening. I appreciate it.

CH: Terry Keith is a geoduck harvester. We reached him in Prince Rupert, British Columbia.

[heist music?]

Tesla Finances

Guest: Dan Ives

CH: Today, Tesla recalled virtually all Cybertrucks in the United States. Safety regulators warned drivers that 46,000 vehicles are at risk of an exterior panel that runs along the windshield detaching while driving. And that recall is just the latest bad news for Tesla. As we talked about yesterday, Tesla vehicles and dealerships across Canada and the U.S. have been hot spots for vandalism and protest since CEO Elon Musk was appointed to oversee the newly-created Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE. Just yesterday, 80 cars were vandalized at a Tesla dealership in Hamilton, Ontario. All of that has sent Tesla shares falling dramatically since January. Here's what U.S. Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick said about Tesla stock last night on Fox News.

SOUNDCLIP

HOWARD LUTNICK: I think if you want to learn something on this show tonight, buy Tesla. It's unbelievable that this guy's stock is this cheap. It'll never be this cheap again. I mean, who would invest in Elon Musk?

CH: Dan Ives is a managing director at the U.S. financial firm Wedbush Securities, and a self-described Tesla “core bull." That means he buys Tesla stock expecting to sell it later for a profit. We reached Mr. Ives in Westfield, New Jersey.

NK: Dan, it's certainly extraordinary and unusual that, that a member of cabinet, the secretary of commerce, would say anything about a private business, let alone that. What are you advising investors?

DAN IVES: Look, I think for investors, I mean, this decision was noise to some extent. I mean, because the more Tesla becomes a political symbol, and the more conversation that comes out of the Trump White House around Tesla, it's not a good thing. And that's been part of the overhang in the stock.

NK: Two weeks ago, in a note to investors, you wrote, quote, the best thing that ever happened to Musk and Tesla was Trump in the White House, end quote. What made you change your mind?

DI: Well, over the long term, autonomous is ultimately the biggest thing for Tesla. I mean, that's worth $1 trillion to the company itself. But in the near term, no one expected that Musk would just so aggressively continue to go down the DOGE path. And as he's done that, the positives from the Trump administration has been, you know, way outweighed by the negatives because of the brand issues that are happening, and really globally.

NK: You put out a note to investors today saying Musk, you know, needs to step back from DOGE and focus on Tesla. What difference do you think that would make at this point?

DI: I think it's about balance. The problem now is that investors feel like Musk, all he's focused on is DOGE . Every time he's pictured, it's the White House or Mar-a-Lago,

and Tesla investors need him to be CEO of Tesla. And I think that's why it's a moment of truth for Musk. I looked many times over the last 15 years, we've been there with Tesla, different challenges, and navigating. That's how the company's gotten to the global brand it has. But for Musk, I mean, the clock's struck midnight, and this is the time to pivot.

NK: Businesses cozy up to, to politicians, and certainly to, at the highest levels to, to presidents all the time, certainly. But, and I know you're a dollars and cents guy, you're a stocks guy, but did it concern you at all this, this, even before DOGE that they were so linked. I mean, when, the White House is not normally a place for, for a president to stand outside and talk about a car as if it's az the showroom of an auto show, right? So, were you concerned about this before?

DI: Well, the concern, there's always concern in terms of political attachment. But the view was Musk being a huge supporter of Trump. And they were always going to have a strong relationship. No one expected that it would become this bromance, this interlock, this first buddy, whatever you want to call it. And the biggest issue is, is that now, any frustration toward Trump, toward the politics, toward DOGE, whether it's domestically or internationally, it could now be taken out on Tesla. And that's a very bad thing for the brand and for shareholders.

NK: And that's already happening to actual cars, and to, and to the brand as we're seeing, right?

DI: Exactly. And that's why, you know, for Musk, it's not even just a moment of truth, it's really how he handles this next call it two months. It will be important in terms of the future of Tesla because they need to read the room. We saw him do it in Twitter. We've seen do it in other periods over the last --

NK: You think he read the room on the, on the Twitter file?

DI: Oh, I think he read the room in terms of he was selling stock at a mad pace, huge frustration, he took a, you know, he ultimately pulled back a bit, and then Tesla became a $1 trillion market cap. So, the point is, the signs of success were there. And you cannot deny that Tesla is, you know, with Nvidia probably one of the biggest disruptive technology players in the world. But there's a moment of truth for Musk.

NK: Why would Musk returning full-time to Tesla be better for the company, do you think, than from him stepping away from it entirely? Because when you talk about the brand, and damage to that brand, and, you know, once there is that level of disdain for something, it's hard to, to, to right that ship. So, why would you want him to come back at all?

DI: I mean, Musk is, you know, many view him as a modern day Albert Einstein. So, his view of the brand, it's so important to the success that Tesla has had.

NK: So, you think he can, even with all of the baggage, and what people have seen him, seen him do and say, [chuckle] that, that he could, he could, people would get behind him again -- investors would get behind him?

DI: Oh yeah. Yeah. I have a pretty high confidence in that. But this is a key period for him to change course.

NK: And if over these two months he doesn't do what you think he should do, what, what will happen?

DI: Well, then I think the brand damage becomes more of what could be a permanent black eye. And that's where this, instead of just a dark chapter with a scar, becomes something a lot more nerve-wracking for investors in terms of the long-term growth trajectory.

NK: You know, we've seen that Musk wants to, to, to have influence around the world politically, certainly beyond his companies. Buying into social media was part of it, weighing in on elections, not just here, but, but elsewhere around the world. So, knowing what you know about Elon Musk today, do you think it's realistic that he would want to let go of that proximity to power and the actual power, whether people are comfortable with it or not, he is actually wielding right now?

DI: Well that's good, that's the key question, right? I mean, if he just continues to go down this path at this pace, it's a bad thing for the Tesla brand.

NK: Dan, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

DI: Thanks.

CH: Dan Ives is a managing director at Wedbush Securities. We reached him in Westfield, New Jersey.

[ambient]

Uncharted Ocean Exploration

Guest: Patricia Esquete

CH: When you're on a scientific vessel in sub-zero temperatures, surrounded by massive floating glaciers, in barely-charted waters, you learn to expect the unexpected. But you don't necessarily expect the unexpected to be good. Or to include the discovery of a thriving ocean ecosystem containing a whole bunch of potentially new-to-science species. But that's the unexpected thing that happened to the research team on board the Schmidt Ocean Institute's R/V Falkor (too) earlier this week. That ecosystem revealed itself when the massive George the Sixth (VI) Ice Shelf calved, leaving a huge, previously-unexposed area of Antarctic seabed exposed. And now, the scientists are sharing some of what they found there for the first time. Patricia Esquete is a researcher in the Biology Department, and Centre of Marine and Environmental Studies of the University of Aveiro in Portugal -- and was the chief scientist on board the Falkor (too) that fateful day. We reached her today at a conference in Kingston, Jamaica.

NK: Patricia, could take us back to that day in January. You're looking at the satellite imagery, you know, on the on the ship. What do you see? What did you notice?

PATRICIA ESQUETE: Well, in the first place, a few days before we noticed that a piece of George the Sixth Ice Shelf was breaking off. Then, a few days after, we noticed that there was actually an iceberg forming and drifting away. But it's still, you know, it's still in the same place. And a few days after, we noticed that the iceberg has moved a lot -- like several kilometres away, leaving us space behind to study whatever ecosystems are down there under the ice shelf. And that was a really special moment. That was wonderful. We were like, immediately, we know we had to go there and explore that particular area.

NK: You had to take a closer look. But what were you expecting to find?

PE: Our expectations were a very impoverished ecosystem. Because, you know, normally, marine ecosystem is fed by the energy of the sun, and, and the primary production of the food that is produced on the surface. But if you have over 100 metres of ice on top of the surface, normally that light is not going to reach. So, that means that photosynthesis cannot happen. So, this energy and food is not going to be produced. So, we were expecting some forms of life fed by food that is being transported laterally by the currents. But we didn't expect much. And then, the first images that we got from the seafloor were amazing. We found pink, I remember, the first image was a huge sponge with a crab on it, and that was a really woah! [both laugh] That's, that's special. That's beautiful.

NK: Are you saying wow in that moment, too, you as you look at the pictures?

PE: It was more like, woooooaaaaahhh! [both laugh] But yeah, that was exactly, that was exactly what we said. We all said, that was the sound in the room. Look at that, look at that thing. Oh, and that sponge as also other species living on that. Have you seen that one? So, there was a lot of excitement. There was a lot of people in that room eager to see how, how that would look like.

NK: Why do you think, yeah, why do you think there is this thriving ecosystem down there?

PE: Certainly, the food that feeds that ecosystem needs to come from somewhere else. What and how, and how does it happening, and how that does its function, and how, indeed, that ecosystem is, is being fed, and what makes possible that array of life is something that we really want to figure out. Let's say the next step, that's going to be really the most exciting research that we can do is that get to understand how life thrives under the ice, so.

NK: You mentioned the sponge. Tell our listeners some of the other things you were able to photograph. Because you believe that some of what you found could be new species.

PE: Many of them will be probably new species. When we were in an area that's been very little explored, and we know that when you explore the deep sea, when you sample the deep sea, you always find new species. We are expecting to find, well, I don't want to say numbers, but there will be probably dozens of new species, just because we were exploring an area that, that has never been explored before. And that's, that's how it is. And also, species that probably can only live under those conditions. But that's, again, something that we could only be sure of when we do more research.

NK: From what you saw, I mean, can you even pick favourites from those images and those discoveries at this stage?

PE: Of course I have my favourites! So, I taxonomist myself, so my job is to discover new species, and I do crustaceans. They're like arthropods, and there's a few of them that I knew, and that we were able to witness, which is a very rare opportunity. And thanks to the, to the fantastic ROV that we had. So we, my favorite is what we call an isopod. It's similar to the, what is normally called a sand dollar. And they are like flat,and they're like kind of flat shrimp-like animals that live on the sand on the seafloor. And we found very beautiful ones in this, in this expedition. So, that would be my favourite.

NK: Why are they your favourite?

PE: This, just, I guess just because it's the type of animals that I normally work with.

NK: Right. I hear you. So, next step is genetic testing then?

PE: Genetic testing. So, a full morphological study of all the species that we found, and then genetic analysis. Then we have, as I was saying, we have to go in more detail of the geology of the area, the sedimentation rate, the current regime, and the nutrient regime to actually see how the whole system works.

NK: You'll be looking at the ice melt itself to try to figure out how this eco system was, was thriving under the ice sheet.

PE: Yes. And not only, there's a lot of water currents, that's other, other conditions. Not only the melt, the melt water.

NK: I appreciate your time. Thank you.

PE: Okay. Thanks to you.

CH: Patricia Esquete is a researcher in the Biology Department and Centre of Marine and Environmental Studies of the University of Aveiro, and the chief scientist on a ship that's studying the seabed exposed by the recent calving of an iceberg in Antarctica.

[hip-hop]

Lumon Company

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: Our customers do not just buy glass and aluminum. They buy something more. They buy more room for life.

CH: That was part of a commercial for the Lumon Group.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: This is Lumen, the first device for hacking your metabolism. With just one breath, Lumen tells you what you're currently burning for energy, carbs, or body fat, so you can see what's going on with your metabolism in real-time, and what to do about it.

CH: That was part of a commercial for a device called the Lumen.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: Hello, my name is Mr. Milicic. I manage the Severed Floor of Lumon Industries Branch 501. With me is our fellow in training, Ms. Wong. Greet the viewer, Ms. Wong.

WOMAN: Hello.

CH: Now, you may suspect that Lumen, Lumon and Lumon are all fictional. But Lumon -- which specializes in "glazed living spaces -- is real, even if "glazed living spaces" does sounds made-up. And the Lumen is a real object you can breathe into, but whether it hacks your metabolism or just your credit card, I have no idea. Lumon Industries, though: now, that one is fake. And it’s bad. What are they doing to Gemma? Lumon Industries is the evil company in the Apple TV show Severance. Lumen and Lumon are among the various actual companies named Lumon or Lumen that were at first bemused by sharing a name with a villainous fictional corporation. And are now trying to capitalize. On the one hand -- according to the Wall Street Journal -- 200 people recently applied for a single job at Lumon, the glazed-living-spaces place. The vast majority of those people applied as a joke, and probably said, "You have the same name as a thing from TV," in the job interview. So that's annoying. But on the other hand, a lot of people are searching for the unreal Lumon Industries and winding up on real Lumon websites -- and that's good for business. You might have assumed that it would be a problem to share a name with a disturbing corporate entity that's conducting nightmarish experiments on human beings in the name of profit. Turns out: nope! It's just fun! If you're a company with the name of that bad company, you're in good company.

[ambient]

Part 2: Canadian Executions, LEGO Home Listing

Canadian Executions

Guest: John Kamm

CH: Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly delivered some shocking news yesterday: China had executed four Canadians on drug-related charges. Minister Joly strongly condemned China's decision. She said the four men were all dual citizens, and were executed earlier this year. No further information about their identities is being released in order to protect their privacy, and the privacy of their families.

SOUNDCLIP

MÉLANIE JOLY: We worked a lot within Global Affairs in Beijing, in different parts of China, but also in Ottawa, to make sure that ultimately this will not happen. I raised this issue also at the G20 when I was in South Africa, and the foreign minister of China was there. I've raised it many times. Prime Minister Trudeau also raised it for many times. And we'll continue to do so in every future case. But what I can tell you is that my hearts and prayers are with the families, and we're respecting their privacy, particularly as they're grieving.

CH: Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly speaking with the CBC. John Kamm was helping to lobby China on behalf of the four men. We reached him in San Francisco.

NK: John, this will be shocking and very upsetting news for a lot of people. Of course, the families involved. How did you react when you found out?

JOHN KAMM: Well, I too was shocked. I had worked quite hard on this, trying to convince the Chinese government not to go forward with this terrible event. And I might say at this point that I, I would commend the Canadian government for the efforts it made to stop this at the highest level, all the way down the line. I believe they did everything they could to stop this, all right?

NK: Why do you think that this time, John, despite all of your efforts, your organization's efforts, and the Canadian government's efforts, as you've said, why do you think those efforts were unsuccessful this time?

JK: Well, I'm sorry to say I don't think that the Chinese government cares about international opinion. They've made that very clear. You know, so, this, these cases have been before the Supreme Court for more than two years, around two years. So, for two years, the Supreme Court in Beijing has been reviewing this, and they decided to go forward with it, despite pleas to the contrary, and despite the damage it is doing -- has done -- to China's image in the world. I, I can't stress that enough. You know, China doesn't have a very high positive rating in Canada or the United States, but this certainly is not going to improve their image, if you will. There is not a single country in Europe that still practices the death penalty, not one. So, it's basically China, the United States, I guess, Japan, Singapore. But, by far, China is the biggest executioner.

NK: Have you been able, in your previous work and previous cases, to, to stop an execution or executions from going forward?

JK: I have. It's, it has happened. On the other hand, I had failed on many occasions. I'm sorry to say. But yes, I have. There was an option. The Chinese court did not have to do this. In China, there is a unique sentence -- I don't know of any other country that does this -- it's called death with two-year reprieve. In other words, you sentence him to death, but you give him two years to see how he behaves. And I can assure you that people behave very well under such a sentence.

NK: And these are drug cases, or were as we understand it, that's, that's what we've, we've been told -- according to, according to China at least. So, why would that be cause for execution?

JK: Well, this is China's opinion. They think that, you know, I have talked to the Supreme Court about this in the past. And they say, well, you know, you have no idea. Drugs are the same as murder. I mean, basically when you, when you sell somebody fentanyl, for example, and that individual consumes and dies, well, that is in the eyes of the Chinese -- and in the eyes of many people, I might say -- that's murder. So, the Chinese government has taken the position they do not tolerate drug trafficking at all. And I'm sorry to say they have decided to execute Canadian citizens to make that point.

NK: The families involved have asked for, for privacy, understandably. I know you are not able to say much for those same reasons, for privacy reasons, but what can you tell us?

JK: Well, I can tell you that we do not still know the exact, the actual date of the executions. We don't know where they took place. We assume they took place in the detention centre where they are currently, were held. We don't have that information yet. I'm trying to get it. What else do we know? Well, we assume that they were executed by means of lethal injection. That's what we know, or what we can reasonably speculate happened.

NK: I last spoke to you on this, on this show in 2021. We were talking then about Robert Lloyd Schellenberg, a Canadian who is still detained in China. This is over drug charges as well. What do you think what has happened in these other cases might mean for him?

JK: Well, this is very bad news, obviously, and for Mr. Schellenberg. I am in touch with the family.

NK: What did they say to you?

JK: What do you think? [laughing] They are obviously very concerned. And I, I will try to do something. I may issue a statement about that. You know, in that case, it's another great tragedy. He was originally sentenced to 15 years in prison. Then he appealed. After he appealed, then they changed the sentence. It's very tragic. I'm very sorry.

NK: You've talked about Canada's work -- their attempts -- in terms of these other cases, what at this stage could -- or should -- Canada do?

JK: Well, they just need to keep pushing. They need to keep raising Robert's name. You have to put it firmly in front of the Chinese government. And, hopefully, it'll do some good.

NK: Do you think this is about the escalation in the trade tensions between our countries? Is China trying to send a message there?

JK: I don't know, it's possible. I suppose it could be sending messages to Canada and to others. It certainly might be sending a message to the high commissioner for human rights that they really don't care what the international community thinks. I just don't know. I kind of doubt it, but it's possible.

NK: John, I appreciate your time, as always. Thank you.

JK: Thank you.

CH: John Kamm is the executive director of the Dui Hua Foundation, a humanitarian group that advocates for detainees in China. We reached him in San Francisco.

[‘80s electronic]

New Winnipeg Police Chief

CH: On Monday, the RCMP confirmed that the second set of human remains found at Winnipeg's Prairie Green landfill were those of Marcedes Mayran -- an Indigenous woman who was murdered by a serial killer. The news followed the discovery of Morgan Harris's remains earlier this month -- and came on the same day that Winnipeg's new police chief, Gene Bowers, was sworn in. The new chief spoke to CBC Winnipeg earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

GENE BOWERS: Winnipeg is my home. I've raised four sons here. I wanted to make a difference in our city, and I feel my background -- and personally and professionally -- has, you know, put me in a place where I think I can make a difference.

MARCY MARKUSA: I know you had a chance to speak to the families of Morgan Harris and Mercedes Mayran, and I am wondering how you will start to rebuild trust with the Indigenous communities, specifically after the police decision not to search the landfill.

GB: Just to clarify, I've only met with one of the families -- the Mayran family -- so, I'm still scheduled to meet the other families. You know, reconciliation and moving forward, there's been many, you know, the AJI, the MMIW, calls to justice, the TRC calls to action, and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. All those are a framework for, for moving ahead. You know, a lot of this, we just have to look into these recommendations. You know, the AJI has laid it out very, very well about what we need to do to make relationships better, building respectful working relationships. You know, knowing and understanding the people that we are serving, and inclusion of Indigenous people within our ranks. You know, within all of our ranks, those types of things have been laid out in many of these different reports. So, I'm going to take those and move forward with many of them. I've already implemented a number of the calls to justice from the MMIWG with our Coordinated Missing Persons Response unit. So I, I am looking to continue on that path.

MM: Just last, Chief Bowers, I do want to ask you something quite direct. I mean, Indigenous advocate Sheila North -- who's part of your circle -- said that she feels you need to personally connect with families, which you're doing, you said. But she also says that you need to apologize on behalf of the Winnipeg Police for that decision not to search the landfill. We did see apology from some in the province already. You know, the interim leader of the PC Party, for example, apologizing politically. I'm wondering whether or not that is something that you are going to do or will, will commit to considering, at least? I wonder what your response is to that today live on CBC?

GB: So, I would just, out of respect to the families, I want to meet with each family first, speak to them, and talk with them about this issue before I say anything publicly. I will be saying something publicly. But once I've spoke with each family.

CH: Winnipeg's new Chief of Police, Gene Bowers, talking to Marcy Markusa, host of Information Radio in Winnipeg today.

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LEGO Home Listing

Guest: Andrew Huddleston

CH: As a child, I passed many blissful hours playing with LEGO. But I passed more frustrating and baffling hours playing with LEGO, because everything I built was terrible. I would set out to make an elaborate tribute to a Frank Lloyd Wright house and wind up with a perfectly square LEGO box in which I forgot to install windows or doors. So, I'm impressed and jealous of Andrew Huddleston -- who has built a brick-by-brick replica of his Washington, D.C. townhouse. It's incredible -- it’s perfectly to-scale, it depicts every detail of his home, including a door. And you can see that replica in the real-estate listing for Mr. Huddleston's actual townhouse. Although the replica is not for sale. We reached Andrew Huddleston at his new home in Portland, Oregon.

NK: Andrew, I'm a LEGO fan, so, so I understand the attraction, but it's usually buyers who have to, you know, really work hard to, to get in the good graces of people who are selling, hoping to get that property. Why would you need to do this for a property you're selling?

ANDREW HUDDLESTON: Well, you know, I didn't actually do it specifically for the purpose of selling the house, but I did it because I love the house. I actually built the LEGO model about two years ago, after we'd been living there for a couple of years, and I felt like we'd settled in, and had it nicely decorated. I thought it would be a fun project to try to recreate the space as realistically as possible, to build the four-story townhouse and decorate it in the way that we had it decorated and furnished at the time.

NK: So, it was a way to memorialize it forever, wherever you ended up living?

AH: Yeah, exactly. And because, because I love LEGO, I've been doing a number of different kinds of creative projects in recent years. Kind of started during the pandemic, when you know me, like I was stuck at home like many people were, and I started doing some larger art pieces. Two I did at first were inspired by the television show Dallas. [NK chuckles] I did LEGO portraits of the characters of J.R. and Sue Ellen Ewing, kind of to make of them look like '80s-style pixelated computer graphics, but just kind of writ large.

NK: Right. This is the second time, I have to say, this is second time Dallas has come up in the span of a week on our, on our show, which I think is funny. And two very different stories, but continue.

AH: Oh, that's funny. So, but yeah, but after doing those art pieces, I thought, well, I'd like to try something more three dimensional, and something that's more about a building. Because, you know, I've been a LEGO fan since I was a little kid, and I've always loved the different kinds of things you can build, either with the sets or when you're being creative and doing something original. And so, I thought this would be a cool project, really stretch myself to, to build our house.

NK: And how long did it take?

AH: You know, it took several months. It was, it was an involved process. First, I kind of had to study the floor plan, and think about what the right proportions would be, you know, to make sure that the hallways would line up with the windows and the stairway, and and kind of get it the right size to be, you know, not too large, but large enough that I could have the detail that I wanted. And then, after that, I built it out with the LEGOS that I had on hand, because I have a pretty, a pretty good collection.

NK: [laughing] Yeah. And this is not a set. Like, you're not building from a set, right? You're, you're buying all the little pieces and big pieces that you need.

AH: Exactly, yeah. So, after I kind of had it the way I wanted, I then bought additional pieces so that I would have the right colors and the right shapes. I, you know, I love, I like being creative, and I like being artistic. And so, it's actually fun to get to do something like that. And LEGO is a good medium for being creative, you know? I think, I think we have a really great house, and I think converting it into a LEGO project, yeah, I hope I really did it justice in terms of making it look, look real and look nice.

NK: Yeah, I know you said you did this to, to memorialize it and honour this townhouse that you loved. But you did put it on the listing, right? Why did you do that?

AH: Yes. Yes. So, we recently moved from Washington, D.C. to Portland. So, I'm not in the townhouse anymore. And it is, it is going up for sale tomorrow. And so, we really hope that we find somebody to buy it who loves it as much as we did, since it's a great house and it's in a really great neighbourhood.

NK: Is it risky, though, to put it in a listing? I mean, why did your agent think that that might be a good idea?

AH: To put the, like, the LEGO?

NK: Yeah.

AH: Pictures. I mean, I think he thought it was creative and original. That it might be a way to, to get people's attention, and do something different. And I thought it was a clever idea, and I really appreciate that, that he thought of it.

NK: The replica is with you in Portland, yes?

AH: Well, right now, it's on our moving truck. [chuckling] So, with a cross-country move, it takes a couple of weeks for your stuff to arrive.

NK: Right.

AH: So, it is crossing the country right now, but, hopefully, it will be here eventually.

NK: Are you worried about it?

AH: I think it'll be fine. I packed it very carefully.

NK: Are you going to make one for your new place, too? Or is this just a one-off?

AH: You know, I might. Our new house is beautiful also, and it's very different. So, I think I'll probably give it a try once things have settled down, and I have time for that kind of project.

NK: Andrew, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

AH: Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

CH: That was LEGO connoisseur Andrew Huddleston. He built a precise LEGO replica of his house, and is using photos of it in the real estate listing.

[jaunty instrumental]

Ashes In Space

CH: Last year, Glenn Holmes's wife of more than 40 years, Wendy, passed away. He remembers her as someone who loved animals, was empathetic, intelligent, independent...and unconventional. Which is a big part of the reason Mr. Holmes has decided to honour her in an unconventional way: later this year, her ashes will be put on a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket and sent to space. In an interview with the CBC this morning, Mr. Holmes talked about why he wanted to do that for Wendy.

SOUNDCLIP

GLENN HOLMES: From the time she was a very little girl, and she was, so, I guess quite young when the moon landing happened. But she was fascinated with Star Trek, fascinated with space, and all the way up until her very last days, she would tune in when there was any SpaceX launch or anything like that. So, she's followed them all. Also, sometimes we would get broadcasts and launches, or landings, or things like that from the Russian ones too. And so, she'd watch that.

DAVID COMMON: So now, I'm getting the love of space, and the fascination with space, and I know that she had requested to have her ashes scattered how did you connect with the idea of scattering them in space?

GH: I asked what she wanted to do with her ashes, she said, well, scatter them. I didn't think that was good enough. I said, wait a minute. Just scattering her ashes is meaningless. I went and looked at graveyards and things like that, and said, no, that's not for Wendy. She's special. So, I contacted this company called Solestus, which is an American-based company, which specializes in this type of thing. And so I, I phoned up and said, can I do this, too? I said, I love my wife. My wife loves space. Can I send her up there? And they said, oh, yeah. And then, they gave me the options. And so I said, that's for my wife. That's it.

DC: And it's not just for your wife. I understand you're going to make a trip there, too.

GH: Well, you don't get to send all of their ashes. Of course not, because we'd have to buy the rocket. The amount of, they charge for, for payloads. So, we do have some of her ashes still.

DC: I see.

GH: And my idea is that. And actually, it came up, I guess it was Solestus, when I was talking with them, were talking with one of your, your, your staff, your people. And they came up to me and they said, yeah, actually, I'm going to reserve through my, through Solestus, I'm going to reserve it so that she and I will both go up together. But we're going to do the same orbit. We're going to do the same, same thing. Where, at the end of it, we return to Earth. We're not going to go into deep space, never to return. Both of us love Earth. This is our home. We want to go out and go through space, like, for three to 10 years, and then come back home.

DC: And then what? What happens at that point when the rocket comes back?

GH: We disintegrate. We get, we get cremated twice.

DC: Can I ask a ballpark figure for sending some?

GH: No.

DC: No? All right.

GH: No, I have, because there are, there are, there are four different things, and there are base prices for them. But you can, you can add or whatever. So, I would suggest that you would contact them, and then work it out for yourself. This is for Wendy. And it's not an extravagance. She's my wife, and it didn't matter what it cost me. It's the idea of it's the very last thing I can ever do for her. It's the last gift. And, yeah, expensive be damned. It wasn't that expensive, though.

CH: Glenn Holmes of Acton, Ontario, talking to David Common, host of Metro Morning in Toronto, about his plans to send some of his wife's cremated remains to space.

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Part 3: Antisemitism Definition, Blainville Toxic Dump

FOA: Dry Cell Lawsuit

CH: What Lisa Adams endured has already been deemed a breach of her charter rights. And now, she's suing the federal government over it. In 2020, Ms. Adams spent 16 days in a type of solitary confinement known as a "dry cell", in a federal prison in Nova Scotia. She was put there because she was suspected of hiding drugs in her body. An exam eventually revealed that was not the case. A provincial judge ruled that the law that kept her in that cell discriminates against women. And now, Ms. Adams is suing the federal government for damages. We spoke to Lisa Adams in 2021 -- when the initial ruling in her case came down.

SOUNDCLIP

LISA ADAMS: I was there for 16 days. At all times, I had a guard sitting outside of my glass cell, and I was also being recorded 24/7. I had to have three guards present while I use this special toilet that they brought in for me to use. And I had to have three guards present every time I showered. I was allowed very minimal items. Every time that I left my cell to call my lawyer, they would search my entire cell. I had to be in handcuffs when I left. I was allowed outside less than a handful of times. There was no vegetation or anything. It was just like a little yard with absolutely nothing to do.

CAROL OFF: I don't want to get into too much of your privacy, but what were they expecting would happen with the, with these alleged drugs in your vagina, which they found were not there at all. But what did they think would happen in a dry cell with expelling that? What was the theory behind this?

LA: Well, I think that that's where my case is definitely highly egregious because there was no expectation. They put me into this dry cell on the assumption that I had them in my vagina, when in reality, a dry cell is meant, like you said, to have something expelled. And now, as everybody knows, I mean atomically, something could theoretically stay in a vagina for an indefinite amount of time. So basically, from what I understand, they were, I think, hoping to basically torture it out of me. They assumed that the longer they kept me in there, the more likely I was to give up whatever it was that they thought I had.

CO: The ability, this law that allowed, that gave the prison authority for that, this is now what you have challenged successfully. And, but it was deemed to be discriminatory based on gender. And the Nova Scotia judge is giving the federal government six months to reform it on those grounds. But others are saying that the, this entire idea -- this entire dry cell treatment -- has to be abolished. What would you say to that?

LA: That's essentially what I would like to see happen. I'd like to see the practice in general struck down. In my opinion, it's a form of torture. I know even in the men's prisons, they're under the same conditions. And the conditions itself, they play on your mind. And for somebody who could very well be innocent to be put in those conditions, it should be completely deemed unconstitutional.

CH: From Our Archives, that was Lisa Adams talking to our former As It Happens host Carol Off in 2021.

[‘80s electric]

Antisemitism Definition

Guest: Kenneth Stern

CH: The Trump administration's immigration crackdown continued today -- and brought the news of Bader Khan Suri's detention by the Department of Homeland Security. Mr. Suri is an Indian postdoctoral fellow working out of Georgetown University on a valid visa. Now, he's in DHS custody in Louisiana. Department officials allege he was, quote, "actively spreading Hamas propaganda and promoting antisemitism on social media." Unquote. His lawyers maintain that he's innocent, and the university says, "We are not aware of him engaging in any illegal activity." Late today a judge ruled he could not be deported, at least for the time being. Mr. Suri's detention follows that of green card holder and Columbia university graduate Mahmoud Khalil, whose story we've been covering on the show. And in both cases, Trump officials have cited antisemitism -- one definition of antisemitism in particular -- as justification for their actions. Kenneth Stern is the lead author of that definition -- and the director of the Bard Center for the Study of Hate. We reached him in New York City.

NK: Kenneth Stern, when you see and hear the Trump administration justify detentions and funding cuts to universities by using the word antisemitism, what words come to mind for you?

KENNETH STERN: I'm worried about the campus ability to, to continue to be a place for critical thinking. I'm worried about democracy. I'm worried about, you know, students being -- including foreign students, but even ones who are American students -- worried about being able to say what they think for fear of having the government come really after them or their institution. There have been times in American history where that's happened before, including the McCarthy era, including World War One. Those were not good times, either for the academy or for American society. And I'm worried we're stepping into a similar period today.

NK: You first drafted this definition of antisemitism about 20 years ago now. I'll just read it really quickly for our listeners. Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred towards Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals, and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. That's your definition. What was your goal in crafting it?

KS: Well, that part of the definition really isn't what's contentious. It's, it was put together in 2004 for a European group that was focused on collecting data about antisemitism in Europe, and it listed a whole bunch of examples of things that the data collectors and all these different countries that didn't have a common play sheet should look at. And some of them were about Israel. But what happened is that especially around 2010, in the United States, it started getting weaponized. There's a thing in the United States called the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title VI, that applies to educational settings. And what happened was you started having some groups saying, wait a minute. You know, there were things being said on campus, things being taught on campus, speakers coming in, texts being assigned, that they thought violated some of those examples. And they try to force universities to lose these Title VI cases with the intention of saying, if you don't, you know, go down this road, we're we're going to come after your funding. And that's, that has a chilling effect. And what you want to do is speech you don't like -- and a lot of the speech I don't like -- is your answering. You teach about it, you bring in other speakers, you do all those things. You don't try to use instruments of the state to suppress.

NK: We should mention it was, your definition was adopted by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance in 2016. And just to be clear for our listeners, for you, what components are most integral when you're defining antisemitism as you, as you've see it?

KS: Well, I, I, it's, it's really two things at heart, right. It's conspiracy theory that Jews are harming humanity. And the second component of it is that conspiracy explains what goes wrong in the world. So, that's the core of where antisemitism is at its most dangerous. But what I worry about, not only the impact on the campus, but the, the desire to look at antisemitism as simply, okay, let's define it. Let's put it through this. Is it on this side of a line or that side of a line? It loses so much about how antisemitism actually works in society. If you think about it, the Tree of Life massacre. What was the background noise to that? In the United States, it was a lot of hysteria about invaders coming over the southern border. And the person who shot up the synagogue and killed 11 Jews knew that there was a program at the synagogue that was for immigrants. That, clearly antisemitism. You don't need a definition to know that. If you look at the shooting in the Walmart in El Paso a few months later of Mexican, Mexican Americans, nobody would say that's antisemitism. But you look at the ideology of the two shooters. It was nearly identical. You know, people at Charlottesville were chanting Jews will not replace us at a protest about a Confederate statue. How did Jews get into this? It's them thinking that, okay, we're white supremacists, we're superior to people of colour. We're losing this battle. How could that possibly be? Somebody must be putting their fingers on the scale. That's the Jews. That's how antisemitism actually works. A definition writ large blinds us to so many things that are important to see.

NK: And back in 2017, in Charlottesville, people may remember Donald Trump said there were, quote, very fine people on both sides. At the inauguration in January, a lot of concern about what Elon Musk did onstage, appearing to give a Nazi salute, not once, but twice. How concerned are you about antisemitism within the White House right now, potentially?

KS: Well, you know, I'm concerned about things that the administration is doing that, again, like empower groups on the right. Hate, I mean, look at the, look at the, all the people -- everyone -- was let out of the January 6th rioters, including the guy with the Auschwitz t-shirt. You know, the far-right, the people that have, many of whom have an antisemitic agenda, a white supremacist agenda, feel empowered by what this administration is doing.

NK: And in, in that reality, do you think universities and colleges are going to do what you say to contend with this. As you said, teach and encourage, you know, students to talk about ideas and things like that. Do you think that's actually going to happen when things are tightening around them?

KS: Yeah. You know, it's a great question. If you look back at the history of the American academy, and, you know, the early 1900s, when the American Association of University Professors was created, it was because of political interference and trying to fire some people because of their political stances. And for over a century, we've had the idea that faculty really drive what the university teaches. Are there problems with some of what's being taught? I think so, but the remedy isn't to have government dictate what's being taught. That's what you do in authoritarian countries. That's not what you're supposed to be doing in the United States.

NK: Kenneth Stern, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

KS: Thank you very much.

CH: Kenneth Stern is the director of the Bard Center for the Study of Hate and author of the book, The Conflict over the Conflict: The Israel/Palestine Campus Debate, published by the University of Toronto Press. We reached him in New York City.

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Roller Derby U.S. Boycott

CH: Their sport is bruising, but player safety has to be paramount. Which is why a number of Ontario roller derby teams have cancelled trips to compete in the U.S. They say they're nervous about the safety of some team members, after President Trump signed an executive order entitled "Keeping Men Out of Women's Sports" -- which reiterates his administration's insistence that there are only two genders. Tri-city Roller Derby is a team based in Waterloo, Ontario. Teammates Maggie Middleton and Kaitrin Doll talked to the CBC about their decision not to cross the border.

SOUNDCLIP

MAGGIE MIDDLETON: Well, it was, you know, pretty clear from the get-go that people from various communities are becoming more and more unwelcome in the U.S. And, and then that was really solidified through the number of laws that were actually passed, executive order, etc. So, it was really, actually, quite an easy decision. Some of our skaters were not going to be safe. We're not feeling safe. We're not feeling confident about traveling. And if we can't go, if all of us can't go and feel good about it, then none of us are going to go. So, it was a pretty quick and easy decision, decision for the league.

KAITRIN DOLL: I was really happy about the decision. So, as a skater on the team who is trans and gender queer, there's a lot of uncertainty with what's been happening in the larger political landscape in the U.S. But, you know, also in Canada as well. And it was just not clear whether or not even, like, some of our documentation would be recognized at the border, what that meant. And it was really great to have this proactive, supportive approach from our team leadership. And I think what it really did is that it was a decision that avoided potentially harmful and, and triggering conversations to happen and foster within our team and community. The reality is, roller derby is a sport where we have a, had trans and gender diverse inclusion since basically the inception of our sport. We are one of the only full-contact sports that is trans-inclusive and has trans-inclusive policies at, at the highest level.

MM: We have a few U.S. teams coming to play us, but we have heard concerns from them about leaving the U.S. and then going back in. You know, we've heard stories of people having documents confiscated at the border, and just that general fear of people just feeling like, I don't know how my country is going to treat me when I'm trying to get back into it. Will I be treated like a citizen? Will I be treated like everyone else? So, I think that, I'm hoping that that's not, I'm hoping that people will still cross the border to come play with us. But you know, if teams decide that, they make the same decision that we made of, that our skaters aren't feeling safe with this, you know, we'd have to support that as well. To say, yeah, we get it. We're in the same boat. And we totally, totally sympathize with what's going on.

CH: Maggie Middleton and Kaitrin Doll of Tri-City Roller Derby talking to Craig Norris, host of The Morning Edition in Kitchener-Waterloo.

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Blainville Toxic Dump

Guest: Karel Ménard

CH: For over 40 years, a landfill in Blainville, Québec has been accepting hazardous industrial waste from across Canada and the U.S. And it's been a routine process: staff treats the waste, and then buries it underground. But now, Stablex -- the American company that operates the dump -- says it's running out of room. And it wants to expand the site, pronto. The municipality and residents are opposed to any expansion. But the provincial government is pushing a new law to force the city to sell land to Stablex, so the project can go ahead. Karel Ménard is an environmentalist who spoke at the hearings regarding the bill. We reached him in Montreal.

NK: Karel, Bill 93 hearings are wrapping up, as you know, you were a part of those hearings. A decision is, is close. It could be determined tomorrow. How are you feeling ahead of that?

KAREL MÉNARD: If it closes tomorrow, it will be a very bad decision because there is a lot of unknown elements. And the project is for the next 40 years. We are talking there about 2 or 3 million tonnes of hazardous waste that could be in landfill next to peatland. And City of Blainville, where the landfill is, doesn't agree with that. Neither the regional government, and we don't have enough information to make a good decision.

NK: What makes you think that there is significant environmental risk here?

KM: First of all, it is under the site of a former plant of ammunition that was at operation during World War Two, and until the 1960s, I guess. We don't know what's underneath. We don't know exactly what's underneath the ground. Some bomb, maybe some bomb with phosphorus in it. So, it could be very dangerous if it is exposed to the oxygen, to the air. It is next to, as I said, a peatland, a bog. So, risk of contamination. It is not very far from houses. And the waste is put into a kind of a semi-solid cement, and then Landfilled. So, they say it is stabilized, but we don't know how it could react after 20 or 40 years. We don't know how it can react if chemicals can be mixed together. A lot of risk that, for which we, we don't have the the answer. So, in this case, I think it is a good thing to take the time in order to make the good decision. We're not against dispose, the disposition of our hazardous waste. We need to dispose of them because we, we produce them. But I think we have to have all the answer to our questions.

NK: City officials are against this. The environmental watchdog in Quebec says it should not proceed, as we've been discussing. But the province, Quebec's natural resources minister, told our Radio-Canada colleagues that the expansion is, quote, important for the Quebec economy. What do you say in response to that? There's clearly a lot of opposition, but the province says this is necessary.

KM: I think the Quebec will lose money. Because, first of all, in order to, to, to buy this land, to force the city of Blainville to sell the land to the government, it will, it will cost $17 million. Then, the government will rent -- not sell, but rent -- this land to Stablex -- the company -- for the next 40 years for $44 million. And then, this land, when it will be filled with hazardous waste, about 2 or 3 million tonnes of hazardous waste that will be there, it will belong to the Québecers, to the, to the government. We won't make a lot of money, and we will inherit land with filled with the hazardous waste for 100 of years. So, I don't think it is a good thing.

NK: What would be a better solution? Because Stablex is saying it's going to run out of space by 2027. That's just in a couple of years. Six hundred companies based in Quebec, as I understand it, use this site to dispose of their hazardous waste as well. So, where should that waste go?

KM: A lot of MPs asked me this question, but I told them, I will give you the same answer I gave you before, we don't know. Because there is no answer to the question we, we, we have asked. So, of course, we know that we need some places in order to dispose of hazardous waste. We are not against that, but what we have were proposed that means a land that which is next to a peatland for the next 40 years, a landfill that we don't know exactly what will go in it. Who will use it? From where? I think it is not a good decision now. So, if it is the only way of dispose the waste. Maybe it could be an answer, but I'm not sure of that at all. We always talk about disposal. Maybe we should talk about clean production. Other ways for companies to reduce their production of hazardous waste. So, we always talk about things that we have to do. But can we prevent the, the problem instead of trying to find a solution to this problem. So, I think we have to reverse the way of thinking about our waste, hazardous regular waste, if I, if I can say. And that, I think, should be part of the discussion that we are, we are asking in an eventual public hearing.

NK: Karel, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

KM: Okay. Merci. Au revoir.

CH: Karel Ménard is an environmentalist with the Quebec Common Front for Ecological Waste Management. He's in Montréal.

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Dark Brown Mammals

CH: When you picture the earliest mammals on Earth, how do you imagine them? Exactly: you see those little creatures, scurrying amongst the dinosaurs, in all the colours of a box of crayons -- a 48-crayon box, not just a 12 box. Eye-blasting hues in vivid patterns. Bright blue fur, polka dots, yellow and purple stripes -- the types of shades you'd naturally expect for primarily nocturnal creatures whose main job was to avoid becoming giant lizard food. But new research suggests that early mammals actually weren't especially good at colouring outside the lines. For a long time, we've known there were warm-blooded furry creatures back then. But we didn't know the colours of their furriness. Well, researchers in China and Belgium studied five types of fossils from the Early Cretaceous and Jurassic Periods. And they've determined that all those creatures had the same, unpatterned dark grey-brown colouration. From flying-squirrel-like gliders to mole-like creatures -- it appears to have been a real all-greiges event. Always a dull moment. Still, the scientists say this is notable and useful, and don't seem upset to have bummed us all out. In fact, one evolutionary biologist not involved with the study wasn't bummed out at all, saying he'd always believed fur colour would remain an unsolvable mystery -- and these results have left him nothing short of "flabbergasted". Well, I'm happy for him. And boring colours do make, you know, a lot more sense. So, I guess there's no harm in increasing bland recognition.

The AIH Transcript For March 20, 2025

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