The AIH Transcript For March 19, 2025
The AIH transcript for March 19, 2025
For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.
NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.
CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.
[theme]
CH: Tonight:
NK: Unplugged. You won't find any Teslas at the Vancouver International Auto Show this year -- because, given recent protests and attacks on dealerships, organizers believe the security risk is just too great.
CH: Keep your frenemies close. A U.S. Senator holds a roundtable near the Vermont-Quebec border, to hear from business owners on both sides about how they're dealing with the trade war.
NK: Unrivalled. The mayor of Istanbul was expected to be President Erdoğan's strongest opponent in Turkey's next presidential election -- and an opposition politician tells us that's why Ekrem Imamoğlu was arrested this morning.
CH: Throw the booking at 'em. The Quebec government moves to discourage no-shows at restaurants -- in the hopes that they'll be able to take reservations without reservations.
NK: Who goes up must come down. Astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams left Earth for a short trip to space. Nine months later, they've finally returned.
CH: And...crashing the potty. Two more men are convicted for clumsily stealing a solid-gold toilet -- and getting rid of it so effectively that police believe they'll never get a handle on it.
CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that believes if you're going to steal a toilet, just go ahead and take the plunge...er.
Part 1: No Tesla Auto Show, Istanbul Mayor, Butch And Suni Return
No Tesla Auto Show
Guest: Eric Nicholl
CH: In the video, multiple cars are on fire -- and across the front door of the dealership behind them, someone has spray-painted the word "resist". Officials believe a suspect fired three rounds into parked vehicles at the Tesla dealership in Las Vegas this week, and also threw Molotov cocktails. And that's just one instance of the electric carmaker's showrooms, charging stations, or vehicles being targeted recently. There have also been peaceful protests against Tesla and its CEO, Elon Musk, in cities across the U.S. and Canada. In his role overseeing the newly created Department of Government Efficiency, Mr. Musk has slashed jobs, gutted departments, and become a leading figure in Donald Trump's presidency. Today in B.C., the Vancouver International Auto Show kicked off. And one automaker is absent: Tesla. We reached the executive director of the show, Eric Nicholl, in Vancouver.
NK: Eric, why have you made the decision to, to pull Tesla from your show?
ERIC NICHOLL: The decision was made to remove Tesla. It is solely and purely based off of security. With the recent events that have been transpiring throughout the U.S. as far as the East Coast, Central Coast, Las Vegas, we move up to Seattle, we move to Nanaimo, B.C. My job as the executive director is to make sure we provide the safest environment for our guests, for exhibitors, for our staff. And it was, making this decision was purely from a safety perspective.
NK: Had your show received any threats? I mean, what was the worst-case scenario you were imagining?
EN: I'll be totally transparent. We did receive emails coming in from unknown figures, saying wouldn't it be nice to destroy a Tesla on site, and then have a ceremonious burning of vehicle at the end of the show? So, there were issues that were coming in, and as they continued to increase in numbers, we did. We had conversations with the Tesla team and said, what are your plans? How are you feeling about this? We have an opportunity here to get ahead of this and make sure that your staff are safe, our event staff are safe, and the event is safe. Ultimately, they turned that option down. We looked at our security processes that were in place. I really am a numbers guy, and I look at weighted average probabilities. And if you look at a one per cent scenario based off of an average of 130,000 attendance, there was, there's 1,300 opportunities for harm, harassment, or damage. And no matter what security I had put into place, there's no way we could mitigate that. So, the only way to do that was to make the decision, keep the event safe, and remove Tesla from the show.
NK: Was any part of this decision about making a political statement?
EN: Absolutely not. I've been running major consumer events for approximately 25 years. Every decision that I make is based off of a safety and security position. I, there was no political pressure. At the end of the day, I have to do what's right to ensure the safety of our event. And I'll be totally honest, this was the hardest decision I've ever had to make in my career because I know the value of these major automotive events to all the manufacturers, so it's not a decision we took lightly.
NK: Yeah. I want to ask you about response to it in just a moment. But even if this wasn't a political statement, it certainly, you know, we're having this conversation. There's headlines about it. We know the U.S. president and Elon Musk are certainly not shy of, about targeting people online. Was that something you thought about? Did it factor at all into your decision?
EN: The honest answer to that is no. I am looking after the safety of 130,000 people in our venue.
NK: There are others who, who might say that Tesla didn't have a place at your show in the first place. That, that it should take a stand against Elon Musk because of his role in this administration. So, you know, they might say, why did it have to come to the point of a security issue? What would you say to people who, who have that argument and that feeling?
EN: So, that's a good question. And I want to transition that away from the political aspect and bring it back to what the Vancouver Auto Show does for the manufacturers globally. We have conversations with every manufacturer in a global position. We understand the value that these events do in order to market and put consumers into the funnel, and help them guide through the sales and decision-making process. So, whether it was Tesla or whether it was any other manufacturer, we would have looked at this through the same lens.
NK: In terms of, of response from, from people there. However they feel about Elon Musk, they might have been interested to, to see the display. What kind of response have you been getting from people? It's a, it's a pretty big hole on the, on the floor of the show, I would imagine.
EN: So, we got a couple of questions in there. Let's start with this one. So, what type of response have we had to, to making the announcement? Overwhelmingly positive. People are agreeing that we made the right decision to ensure that the venue, the event, the exhibitors, the staff, everybody involved is safe. And we did, we did. We made the right decision.
NK: How prominent would have Tesla's place been at the show? What do you do with that space now?
EN: Again, my job is to do everything I can to backfill space. We have great relationships with various high net worth individuals, with private collections, with supercars, hypercars, associations, car clubs. We did do a last-minute adjustment to add additional features into that footprint.
NK: You talked about the size, you know, the crowd that comes -- more than 100,000 people, as you said. Not being featured at a show like yours, even when it's a big name like Tesla, their stock has been, has been falling of late, what kind of impact does it have to not be at a show like yours?
EN: The manufacturers make the decision to participate in events across the country and throughout the U.S. I leave it to their team to judge and justify what their ROI is on participating. My job is to make sure that we bring well-versed consumers that are hungry for education, the opportunity to see the newest and latest models. From a production standpoint, we do know that being present at these events is important for all manufacturers.
NK: You talked about, you know, this is, this was such a difficult decision, the most difficult you've had to make in your career, and as executive director of, of the Vancouver International Auto Show. Do you think, I mean, we're living in different times now, as you know. So, this may not be the kind of decision you had to make in the past. This time, it was about security, as you've said, for you. Do you imagine you're going to, you're going to be making more difficult decisions like this?
EN: That's a very good question. So, I would say any time we have a security issue, we look at what the potential challenges are, and what is the exposure for public to be harmed, harassed, or damaged. And we take those on a case-by-case basis. This, this really was the hardest decision that we've had to make. I feel confident in that decision. And we'll take circumstances on a case-by-case basis.
NK: Thanks for your time, Eric.
EN: I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
CH: Eric Nicholl is the executive director of the Vancouver International Auto Show.
[ambient]
Istanbul Mayor
Guest: İlhan Uzgel
[sc]
[a man speaks Turkish]
[/sc]
CH: This is Ekrem Imamoglu, the mayor of Istanbul, moments before he was detained by Turkish authorities today. In that video, which he shared on social media, he is tying his tie and looking into the camera, saying hundreds of police officers were waiting outside his home to take him into custody. And they didn't just detain Mayor Imamoglu; they detained a hundred people connected to him. On Sunday, he is expected to be nominated as the official presidential candidate of Turkey's biggest opposition party, the Republican People's Party, or CHP. He's the strongest rival to long-sitting President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan -- and now, he may start his campaign behind bars. İlhan Uzgel is deputy chairman of the CHP. And we reached him in Ankara.
NK: İlhan Uzgel, where is Mayor Imamoglu now?
ILHAN UZGEL: Well, he's in custody in a police station in Istanbul, and he's going to stay there for about four days. Because the charges are about both corruption, being a leader of a gang, you know, and assisting the terrorist organization PKK. These are very heavy charges. So, the prosecutor asked for four days of detainment.
NK: And do you expect he will stay in custody for all four days?
IU: Yes. Yes. That, that, that's the routine. That's the standard operation process of the, of the government. Not, not the judicial system.
NK: The charges are serious, as you said. Where are those charges coming from?
IU: Well, I mean, it's not about the judicial process itself. It is the way the government, you know, alleges eliminates his political rivals. I mean, we have a nationalist party leader in prison right now. He has nothing to do with the PKK, Kurdish issue, etc. He is quite anti-Kurdish. But he's in jail. So, this is nothing about the, the, the charges. I mean they're all groundless on basis. They don't mean anything from a legal perspective. If the government wants to eliminate a rival, a political opponent, it's either corruption or links to, to, to a terrorist organization. So, we're not interested in the judicial details of this process because the government is using the judicial system to, to, to terrorize the, the political and social opposition in Turkey. It weaponizes the judicial system. There is no separation of power in Turkey right now.
NK: Mayor Imamoglu is very popular in Istanbul. And obviously, has his sights set on the national stage as well, and was gathering support on that front. But knowing that, but also knowing what you just said, were you surprised that this day came, and that, that he is in detention right now?
IU: There were some, some clues that they were chasing mayors. So far, three CHP main opposition party mayors are, are in, in jail right now. They were attacked by the government. And the opposition was replaced by pro-government mayors. So, we were expecting that he was somehow being excluded from the presidential race because he, Erdoğan himself, you know, fears that Imamoglu will challenge him in the, in the next presidential elections. So, this is, this is about being a strong candidate against Erdoğan. And it's nothing about the PKK charges. I mean, how on earth a mayor, a popular mayor, would assist a terrorist organization? This is unbelievable and incredible. I mean, this doesn't make any sense. But, you know, I did find anonymous witnesses, they fabricate evidence, and they, they, they, charge any opponent. It's not only about Mr. Imamoglu. So, maybe the judiciary system is totally controlled by the ruling party. That's the reality of Turkey. We're, we've been going through an authoritarian trajectory right now. So, this is what we're trying to confront. And we are resisting this crack, heavy crackdown on, on the, on the opposition forces in Turkey.
NK: One of the other clues was that yesterday, Istanbul University, where Mayor Imamoglu is a graduate of, the university invalidated, nullified his diploma, which is an extraordinary thing for, for people outside of Turkey or anywhere to hear, regardless of, of their, their political leanings. But that would disqualify him from running for president. So given that reality, given what you said about your concerns about the judiciary, and the type of charges and the evidence that might be brought forward, how will your party push on? You want to nominate him still in the coming days as your candidate. What will you do in response?
IU: Yes. Well, I mean, this is ridiculous that Mr. Imamoglu obtained this degree 35 years ago. I mean, it was a routine procedure involving the college. So, they decided to, to, to disqualify him from the presidential race. So, they made up some, some committee. We're still going to hold all the primaries on Sunday where Mr. Imamoglu is a candidate. So, we're going to declare him officially that he's our candidate for the presidential race.
NK: Istanbul is Turkey's largest city. It's also a city Erdoğan knows well, where he built his base and built his, you know, political trajectory, trajectory there. How, you know, we've seen small-scale protests. There's, there's a ban on protests. Social media earlier at least, was, was slowed down or shut down to, to prevent, you know, people from, from talking about this. How do you think people will respond in the coming days? Because people certainly have been going through this for a long time in Turkey, as you know. But that can also dull the response, and, and make them afraid to speak out, or make them feel like it's pointless to protest and speak out.
IU: To some extent, people are kind of afraid, frightened because the, the regime itself is, is so suppressive. So, they don't tolerate even a mild criticism posted on, on, on Twitter. So, it makes our job a little bit difficult. But especially the young people, they defy populist oppression in Istanbul, in many parts of Ankara. So, we are hopeful that the society will not allow Erdoğan to do what he wants. So, this, this government wants to rule Turkey without any serious opposition. So, we're not going to allow it.
NK: İlhan Uzgel, I appreciate your time. Thank you.
IU: I thank you. Thanks for having me.
CH: İlhan Uzgel is the deputy chairman of the opposition Republican People's Party in Turkey. We reached him in Ankara.
[grunge]
Butch And Suni Return
Guest: Cady Coleman
CH: The moment Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams splashed down off the coast of Tallahassee, Florida last night. A moment that was a long, long time coming. The pair of astronauts left Earth for what was supposed to be a week-long stay at the International Space Station. That was last June. But because of technical problems on the spacecraft they'd traveled on, their trip stretched into a nine-month-long adventure -- or, from the perspective of someone with claustrophobia, a nine-month-long unbearable ordeal. [NK chuckles] It was an unexpected turn of events. But in periodical updates, Ms. Williams and Mr. Wilmore seemed to take it all in stride.
[sc]
SUNI WILLIAMS: You know, what are you going to miss about Space? Everything about Space. You know, this is just, this has been Butch and my third flight to the International Space Station. We helped put it together. We've been up here seeing it change throughout all these years. Do a lot of science up here. I think just the fact that we're living up here in this very unique place with, gives you an amazing perspective, not only, you know, out the window, obviously, but also just on how to solve problems. I don't want to lose that, that spark of inspiration.
[/sc]
CH: That's Suni Williams talking to reporters from the International Space Station earlier this month. Now, we can all try to imagine what it would have been like to be in her space boots, but very few people really know. Cady Coleman has a pretty good idea. She's a former NASA astronaut who once spent 159 days aboard the International Space Station. We reached her in Shelbourne Falls, Massachusetts.
NK: Cady, they were up there for such a long time, unexpectedly, as you know. What, ultimately, do you think it was like for them to, to finally leave the space station and come back to Earth?
CADY COLEMAN: Even though I know they were really excited to come home, and happy to be leaving, and, you know, it's in the plan, when it actually comes to, like, flying through the hatch of your ship and getting ready to go home, I think there's a, there's a part in your gut where you just realize, you know, I'm probably not going to be back here for a long time, if ever. And then, they had that 17 hours of, you know, coming home, the journey home. And there's just a few feet between them in Space. And in a way, it's this transition between, you know, saying goodbye to the space station and saying hello to Earth. They open the hatch, and someone pokes their head in and makes sure everybody's okay. But there's the moment that you actually emerge, you know, like, you know, as if, as if you're coming from a cocoon. [chuckling].
NK: Yeah.
CC: And I think that is the moment of arrival. And then, of course, there's a really special moment a few hours later when you get to have that first hug with your family back in mission.
NK: Oh my! I can only imagine. And particularly in the circumstances, with the circumstances in this case, that it was, the length of their stay was, was a surprise, certainly. But once they, you know, they go through the medical checks, obviously. What does that kind of extended stay do to your body?
CC: It depends on the person, but there's some things that we're definitely looking for, partly because we've seen signs in people, you know, as we've been studying folks over the years. And, and that's why extended stays actually, candidly, are so much more valuable than the eight days that they were going to be staying. And that is certainly in bone health, where up there, we lose bone 10 times faster than someone, you know, a person who is 70 years old, who has osteoporosis. And that's the bad news. The good news is it happens so fast, it's very measurable and easier to study than down here on Earth. And so, we do, you know, understanding how our bones are doing. You know, as our lives go on, we get physicals every single year.
NK: What kind of things would you be doing, or would they have been doing to counteract any of those potential effects?
CC: Well, we, they've definitely been doing exercise up there. And especially, I will say, Suni Williams, because she's somebody who exercises down here on the ground quite a bit. And running is not new for her. And it's been, it's been pretty, you know, great amounts of exercise. Up there, we, we exercise about certainly five days a week, and probably more like six or seven. And if you don't exercise up there, you really feel it. And if you miss, like, a day down here of exercising, you're like, oh, I should get back to it. Or two days, or three days, and you know. But, but up there, once you've missed two days, it's almost painful just to get back on the treadmill. And it's just, it's definitely a lot of exercise up there that we've been doing. And also looking at diet, vitamin D, I think people are taking. I know that I did do that up there, but I would say it's mostly diet and exercise.
NK: You talked about that, that incredible moment when you get to hug your family members and loved ones. Was it hard for you to leave, though? Because you clearly loved it up there, too.
CC: It definitely was hard for me to leave. You know, we had actually just some things that came up that our crew was, and at least one person on the crew might stay longer. And I was like, oh, pick me! [both laugh] And I'm not just saying this in retrospect. I mean, a question came up, and it made me think about how I would feel. And it sounds terrible, but, you know, my, I'd been up there, you know, for a little over five months, and my family was doing great down here. And, and once you get up there, it takes about a month to get good at working. And once you're good at working and getting stuff done, you just want to get so much more stuff done. And so, I really wished to stay to finish some projects, to, you know, get more things on the timeline done. And, and there is, I think, a certain grief in leaving. And then, it's a very, it's a very special place. And, you know, it'll be a long time before you go again. And so, when I got home, actually, I found it when I would be on an airplane, which I was quite a bit because my family moved far away. And, you know, I wouldn't really want to sit next to the window. Just because, like, looking out the window, you do have that larger perspective, not quite as profound as from Space, but it reminded me of just all the things that I saw from Space. And I just wasn't quite ready to go there, to be there yet.
NK: Suni Williams talked about that, that perspective, and how it shifted her approach to life as well. How has it changed you?
CC: It certainly makes me a person that likes to think about the possibilities, and knows that they're real. Like, when, in looking back at the Earth, it's just seems completely true and possible to me that if people could be more connected, they could work together. If they understood, you know, who does this, and who does that, and how together, you could make a team when you don't even know each other, and you may think you're far away. But when we look back at the Earth, I mean, everyone is back on the same place. So, it was really clear to me that if we could connect people together more, if they knew how connected they could be, we could really make a dent in some of the challenges that face us as a planet and as people.
NK: Cady, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.
CC: Thank you very much.
CH: Cady Coleman is a former NASA astronaut who's spent a total of 180 days in space. We reached her in Shelbourne Falls, Massachusetts.
[muzik]
Golden Toilet Folo
CH: The criminals who stole America really did a bang-up job. It would have been better if there'd been less banging. When I say America, in this case, I am referring to the artwork by Maurizio Cattelan called America, which is a fully-functioning, solid gold toilet. Or it was. Now, it's gone -- due to the cunning brilliance of three master thieves. Including Michael Jones of Oxford, England -- who was found guilty of the theft yesterday. In September, 2019 -- after taking pictures inside Blenheim Palace, where America was installed…and working -- Mr. Jones and two accomplices arrived in the pre-dawn hush, with cat-like stealth.
[a car screech]
CH: Then, with astonishing dexterity, they made their way past a heavy wooden door like sneaky phantoms.
[wood banging and cracking]
CH: Then, employing mind-boggling finesse, they noiselessly removed the toilet.
[not noiselessly. Lots of crunching]
CH: And finally, after delicately spiriting it down the stairs --
[tumbling]
CH: They loaded it into the trunk and vanished -- as quietly as they did everything else, if not more quietly -- into the morning mist, like will o'the wisps!
[a car starts up and screeches again]
CH: Seriously, though, those guys made a lot of noise. Their master burglary involved smashing down the door, ripping the toilet out of the wall -- which flooded Blenheim Palace, by the way, the birthplace of Winston Churchill -- and then just tearing off at top speed. It was...unsubtle. Within a month, Mr. Jones was arrested. And, as I mentioned, yesterday he was convicted -- along with another guy, who helped find buyers for the gold. As buffoonish as they were, they did manage to make that gold toilet disappear completely: police haven't found a trace of it. And like most of us, they'll never find their pot of gold.
[diner music]
Part 2: Border Meeting: Welch, Quebec Reservation No-Shows
Border Meeting: Welch
Guest: Peter Welch
CH: They're in the business of beer, maple syrup, furniture, and farming. And yesterday, they gathered with other Canadian and Vermonter business representatives near the border, in Newport, Vermont for roundtable discussions about Donald Trump's trade war. The meeting included Canadian MP Marie-Claude Bibeau, and was hosted by Democratic U.S. Senator Peter Welch of Vermont, who's also a member of the Senate Finance Committee. We reached Senator Welch in Norwich, Vermont.
NK: Senator, we as Canadians, we have a reputation -- a pretty good one, I think -- for being polite and even apologetic at times. Is that how you would describe the Canadians you met with yesterday, who are facing all that we're facing in terms of this uncertainty and the tariffs from, from the White House?
PETER WELCH: Well, I'm a Vermonter, and we love Canadians. We have such a long history with you. You know, our kids play hockey back and forth across the border. We've got a library up in the Northeast Kingdom that's half in Vermont and half in Canada. And we've had incredibly close economic ties that have been based on trust. And we like Canadians. You are polite, but you're smart, and you're tough, and you're really good at what you do in your own businesses. And really, really good competitors. So, we're appalled in Vermont with what President Trump is proposing on again, off again with these tariffs that are going to be very destructive. And we're also, in Vermont, extremely upset at the president using this demeaning term of 51st state. It's insulting, and Canada is pushing back. As I think one of your politicians said, when the gloves are off, the fight begins. So, we totally understand the proposals in Canada for retaliatory tariffs no matter what we do. It's, it's hard. You know, we don't want that to happen. But we understand that Canada's got to stick up for itself. Canada is our biggest trading partner. But for us, not alone, there's 34 states that are tied to Canada as the top trading partner.
NK: One of the motivations your president has said for these tariffs is to increase "Made in America" products. And he keeps saying that, that America somehow has, is, is being, is being taken advantage of. I know you disagree with that, but did anyone at the roundtable yesterday say these tariffs would actually -- or could actually -- help their business? Because, you know, there's union leaders who, who have agreed in some cases.
PW: Not all tariffs are terrible. I mean, if you are competing in China, I'll take that example with the country that is dumping products. It's using illegal trade practices to the detriment of our workers, and to the detriment of our businesses. I could be supportive of tariffs and that would be appropriate. But Canada has very strong labour protections. It has very strong environmental protections, and we have very strong mutually beneficial economic relations. So, up in Detroit, where we have car parts going back and forth between Windsor in Detroit. That is a mutually beneficial arrangement. And these tariffs, if they go into effect, in effect, that, that'll really hammer car production both in the United States and Canada.
NK: The Democratic Party, as you know, is, is facing criticism broadly for its response -- or some say lack of response -- to the current administration. They're saying, you know, that there is no unified approach or strong message to confront the current president. What can you do? How much can you do for your constituents if the party is struggling to come together?
PW: Well, first of all, that criticism is about us, not us having a shutdown in government. I was, I voted no on the so-called continuing resolution. And Senator Schumer, our leader, voted yes. And I think that the, that hurt us because it appears that we're not united. I think, really, at the heart of this was the very difficult dilemma that the country faced. What's worse, a really bad continuing resolution? I thought that was really, really bad. I voted against it. Or is it worse to have a shutdown, where, in fact, Elon Musk is going to be totally empowered to run rampant over the federal government. Senator Schumer made that call. He thought it was better to keep the lights on. And the big problem we had there was in messaging. But what I'm seeing, this is the second on the more important question of are we unified? We're home for the first week, all of us, since the Congress began, and we're all doing town halls and meeting with constituents, where, for instance, we're meeting with veterans. And they're going wild about these cuts to veterans. We're meeting with our hospitals, who are going to be totally hammered to the point of financial insolvency with the Medicaid cuts. We're meeting with our farmers, who are going to get really squeezed if we have to pay 25 per cent to import grain and fertilizer from Canada. So, what I'm seeing is the Democrats are united in our opposition, and now we're getting a voice by mobilizing folks, by making very concrete presentations as to how these policies of Trump are going to really hurt you. So, I'm upbeat about our capacity to be unified and to have a clear message that is about just exposing the harm that's being done, as opposed to just a partizan outcry.
NK: Do you think that will, that will build to a point in the next round of elections that the people might vote differently?
PW: Well, that's the goal. And, you know, this is where I think the Democrats have to be somewhat self-aware. We blew some things, okay? We were not good. We did not have an effective message on the border. And that's not the northern border but the southern border. And a lot of folks who voted for Trump did so for reasons that I completely understand. They were having trouble living paycheque to paycheque, and inflation was tough. And they didn't get a sense that we were going to address that. Trump did. But the lie of Trump is that what, as much is he tapped into that legitimate concern on the part of working Americans, his proposals are all about the billionaires. It's sticking it to farmers. It's sticking it to veterans. It's jeopardizing Social Security. It's taking away health care. And as people start to see that what Trump said and what Trump does are two different things, and as we are focused on the economic message, I think we have a chance to restore that traditional relationship the Democratic Party has with everyday working people, who are willing to work hard, want to pay their bills, and be good Americans.
NK: Senator, I appreciate your time. Thanks for this.
PW: Thank you very much.
CH: Democratic U.S. Senator Peter Welch in Norwich, Vermont.
[lounge jazz]
Gareth Southgate
CH: He was a star soccer player in the '90s, and managed England's national team for close to a decade. So when Sir Gareth Southgate talks, people listen. And he's counting on some of those people being young men. In the annual Richard Dimbleby Lecture, which was broadcast today on the BBC, Sir Gareth talked about the highs and lows of his own career -- before turning to the challenges facing young men today, and those who seek to exploit those challenges.
[sc]
GARETH SOUTHGATE: Young men are suffering. They're feeling isolated. They're grappling with their masculinity, and with their broader place in society. Suicide remains the leading cause of death for men aged under 50 in the U.K. That is heartbreaking. I care deeply and equally about the plight of young women. By focusing my remarks on young men, I don't for a second intend to underplay their challenges, not least around self-esteem and mental health. But given my background, and having developed young men throughout my career, I feel more qualified to talk about the challenges they face. What seems to have changed is a sense of traditional family and community role models. The Centre for Social Justice report highlights how 2.5 million children in the U.K. have no father figure at home. This is, as they describe it, an epidemic of fatherlessness, noting that boys are more likely now to own a smartphone than to live with their dad. Now, all the experts I've listened to over the last 20 years speak about the importance of male role models in a boy's life. There's a point at which boys look naturally for mentors outside their immediate family, and it's often where they find the role models who inspire them the most. However, boys are spending less time at youth centers, sports facilities, and community events. They aren't meeting the traditional role models I used to meet, such as coaches, youth workers, and teachers. As real-world communities and mentorship declines, young men end up withdrawing, reluctant to talk or express their emotions. They spend more time online searching for direction. And this void is filled by a new kind of role model, who do not have the best interests at heart. These are callous, manipulative, and toxic influences whose sole drive is for their own gain. They willingly trick young men into believing that success is measured by money or dominance, never showing emotion, and that the world, including women, is against them. They are as far away as you could possibly get from the role models our young men need in their lives.
[/sc]
CH: That was Sir Gareth Southgate, delivering the Richard Dimbleby Lecture for the BBC.
[ambient]
Quebec Reservation No-Shows
Guest: Lindsay Brennan
CH: It's the kind of thing that drives a restaurant owner to chug the cooking wine: it's a busy night; and the place is buzzing; and you just had to turn people away, to save a table for a group that made a reservation weeks ago. Presumably because they really, really wanted to show up, and eat there. Except they didn't. Because they don't. No-shows have dogged restaurateurs for decades. But in Quebec, penalizing them hasn't really been allowed. Now, the province says it's looking to change that. Proposed tweaks to Quebec's Consumer Protection Act would allow restaurants to charge parties larger than five up to $10 per person in the event that none of them show up to honour a reservation. Lindsay Brennan is the co-owner of Montreal restaurants Alma and Tinc Set. We reached her in Montreal.
NK: Lindsay, no shows can be a nuisance, rude even, I would say. But what's the, what's the financial impact on a restaurant or restaurants -- small ones, like the ones you have?
LINDSAY BRENNAN: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a, it's very, it's a large financial impact because it means that we have empty seats. And it also prevents people that would have really liked to have come dined with us from, from having joined us. So, you know, it depends on how many exist. But an empty, a no-show is really the equivalent of, you know, a full cheque of a table that would normally have been there that evening.
NK: And before you got into the restaurant business, I mean, like I said, I think it's really rude. If you can't make it at least -- at the very least -- call. But is this something you've ever done before.
LB: A no-show? [chuckling] No, never. No, it wouldn't cross my mind. No. And I think also we have to be careful because a no-show -- like, you know -- not showing up, and not calling ahead of time, and not letting us know is one thing. But also, last-minute cancellations, even though we appreciate the call, are almost as detrimental. So, I think that, obviously, the call is really helpful, and a much more humane way of handling a situation. But I think that the root of the problem is, is really the idea of a commitment to a, to a reservation, and what that means. When you have a concert or a, you know, a show that you've prepaid for, oftentimes you do everything you can to make sure it's your priority. So, I think that that's really the element that, for me anyway, that is up for discussion is what the commitment means, and the weight of it.
NK: And even before these, these changes proposed by the provincial government since the pandemic, at Alma -- you're one of your restaurants -- you've, you've taken to charging the full price of the meal ahead of time. Other restaurants do this as well. And, and so, it's, it's a high price for people to pay right upfront. But you give them some options if they can't make it, right?
LB: Yeah, absolutely. So, the idea of the, the menu carte blanche at Alma, and the prepaid reservation is, is just that. It's to create a mutual commitment between the client and Alma. And, and it's something that, you know, is a practice all over the world, especially with a tasting menu formula, and the sort of the quality that Alma offers. So, while we were really at the forefront of it in terms of Quebec, it's a practice that we see all over the world, and, you know, outside of Quebec, in, in the rest of Canada. And honestly, it's been a really positive practice for us. I think it develops an element of trust between the restaurant owner, and the, the team, and the, and the clients. It also just, yeah, it commits people to, to the reservation in the same way that they would be committed to going to a, you know, a concert, or a show, or anything else. And it's in their calendar. And because they've already paid for it, it's, it's a true commitment, rather than a maybe. But, of course, when there's an illness or, you know, travel delays, or, you know, something that, that happens even the day of, people are committed to letting us know right away, and we're committed to finding a solution. So ideally, we transfer the reservation to another date. It can also be transferred to another person. It can be converted into a gift card. We try to explore all of the different options before, you know, a full refund.
NK: So then, is there a need for the province to make changes like this? And $10, you know, do you think it will actually make a difference?
LB: So, I don't, actually. I think that the fact that there's a new law that's being put into place is a step in the right direction. However, like many of these types of laws, it doesn't take into account the range of different styles of restaurants, and places, and, and business models that we have throughout Quebec. So, perhaps $10 per person in a very casual establishment with a lot of different seating options could be something that could be very helpful to certain businesses. But in a place like Alma, for example, a $10 per person and cancellation charge is not going to, to make a difference in our evening, and it certainly won't replace the cost of a table of four or more than that not showing up or canceling at the last minute.
NK: Other restaurants use apps, you know, OpenTable is one of them. And, and they get the credit card information. They bill those credit cards. So, why do you think there is this, there is this push for this $10 fee that you yourself have said it's not really going to make a difference?
LB: Yeah. I mean, I think it's the government's attempt to acknowledge the fact that Quebec is -- I think the only province, I might be wrong -- where, you know, consumer laws prevent from actually charging if there's a no-show. And I would like to also mention that I think that as restaurant owners, our intention is never to charge [chuckle] the people to get to that point where a charge is put into place. And I think the idea is more to really have the customer ask themselves, is this what I'm truly committed to? Or am I maybe thinking that I want to go to Alma next Friday night, and maybe I'll reserve just in case? And that way, I have my options. I think it's really the idea of having a credit card being required, whether it's charged right away like at Alma or for a menu, if, if for our five-course menu, it's just a hold that reminds people that they're responsible for their, for the reservation, I think it's really just a way of filtering and, and asking the customer, do you really want to come, you know? And if you do, wonderful. And we'll take great care of you.
NK: You said your, your advice to diners, so what you would, you would suggest to them, what about other restaurant owners who maybe have different formats than, than your two restaurants? Should they be putting in place what you already have?
LB: Yeah. I'm really, you know, of the belief that each restaurant owner and restaurant has its own identity, and its own protocols, and the right to make decisions for themselves. And I think that that is also constantly evolving. And so, I can say for us at Alma, with the 20 seats and the nine-course tasting menu with fresh ingredients that are purchased every day, specifically for the presence of our clientele, we, we really think this is a important step in the reservation process. But I think that we have to, you know, give everyone the option to, to make the decision for themselves. And I do think that more and more, you know, this awareness, and I think maybe the, the new law with the government of Quebec can contribute to this. The more awareness and the more that it's part of a conversation, maybe this will help open the minds of, of consumers that aren't quite on board.
NK: Lindsay, thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
LB: It's a pleasure. Thank you so much for, for including us today.
CH: Lindsay Brennnan is the co-owner of the restaurants Alma and Tinc Set in Montreal. And that's where we reached her. Quebec's new regulations on no-show reservations are scheduled to come into effect in July -- and the province will be conducting consultations on the proposal in the meantime.
[hip-hop]
Lytton Basket Collection
CH: On June 30th, 2021, John Haugen barely had time to grab the essentials as he rushed out of his house -- before fires consumed it, and the town of Lytton, B.C. Among the irreplaceable items Mr. Haugen lost that day were his family's Indigenous baskets. And now, four years later, he's working to re-build his collection. And he hopes to share the skills and techniques that went into each basket with his community. John Haugen is a Lytton First Nation councillor. He told the CBC why the baskets are so special to him.
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JOHN HAUGEN: Oh yes, they're a great part of our culture. They symbolize a lot of things for us. That the artwork, and the amount of work that goes into them is a thing where people were taught from generation to generation to harvest the roots. They are made from cedar root. And they also have the technology of dyeing cherry bark and those other things that really make them relevant to today's world.
DOUG HERBERT: And when did you first start to appreciate these baskets?
JH: Well, I've always known about baskets because my mother was a collector, and we've had them in our home. My Aunt Nancy made baskets when I was younger. They are really important because they connect you to your ancestors, and to our way of life in the past.
DH: And you suffered a big loss with the fire in Lytton with your baskets, didn't you?
JH: Yeah. That's correct. On June 30th, 2021, the huge fire consumed most of the village of Lytton, and wiped out my family home for over 50-something years that we were there. And it had both my mother's collection and my basketry collection as part of that loss.
DH: When you think back to that, what was that like for you at the time?
JH: Well, you were just really on the move because I knew I was going into my house to get my passport. And luckily, close to where my passport were, two baskets that didn't belong to me, they were given to me to caretake in regards to Annie York. And Annie York is a huge icon in our knowledge base.
DH: And so, you managed to save those two baskets, but you and your Mum's big collection, just wiped out?
JH: Yeah, there was no time. The fire had already started to come through the kitchen window and those kind of things.
DH: How old are some of these baskets would you estimate?
JH: I would think there's one at least 150 years old in amongst this group. And then, the rest would probably date to the '30s. Well, we're getting into close to 100 years for some of them.
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CH: John Haugen is a Lytton First Nation councillor. He was talking to Doug Herbert on Daybreak Kamloops.
[instrumental]
Part 3: Hungary Pride Ban, Israel/Gaza Negotiations
FOA: Euclid Mission
CH: The Euclid mission launched in 2023 with a clear purpose: to map the universe. Yeah, a simple, easy task. Today marks a major milestone for that space telescope. The European Space Agency has released the mission's first batch of survey data -- which includes a classification survey of 380,000 galaxies -- the data take us one step closer to understanding the mysteries of outer, and outer outer, Space. Last year, we were dazzled by another milestone, when the agency released some photos captured by Euclid. At the time, we called up one of the mission's coordinators, Will Percival.
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WILL PERCIVAL: They're very beautiful images. It's amazing that out there in the universe, there are objects that have this intrinsic beauty, that have this intrinsic pattern. And what's amazing is not just that they're beautiful to look at, but they can tell us, scientific, information. They can provide scientific information for us.
NK: So, Messier 78, for example, why is it named that? First of all, I have a hunch. But then tell me what it shows.
WP: Oh, it's part of a catalogue of such objects. They are, objects in our galaxy, and they are other areas where there's a lot of dense gas and it is being gravitationally attracted to other parts of it, and it's forming stars. This is a stellar nursery. We're seeing stars forming. So, it's amazing. It's like the birth of part of the universe that we're seeing here. We can try to look at scientific questions like, what are the distribution of sizes of stars when they're born? And this is a fundamental property of the universe.
NK: Do you imagine, you know, young people buying posters of these and putting them up on their walls? What do you what do you hope they think and dream about as they look at them?
WP: Oh, I would have done this were I still a young person. I think they're beautiful and they're amazing, that our universe is so complex. Our universe has patches in it that just look amazing like this. So, it's not just an abstract piece of art. It's there. It's out there. And we can look at it and we can use it to get science out. We can use it to understand some of the big questions in the universe.
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CH: From Our Archives, that was Will Percival talking to Nil last May. Mr. Percival is the director of the Waterloo Centre for Astrophysics, and a science coordinator for the Euclid space mission.
[lounge jazz]
Hungary Pride Ban
Guest: Máté Hegedűs
CH: If you were planning to attend Pride celebrations in Hungary this year, the Hungarian government has an unequivocal message for you: don't. Yesterday, Hungarian lawmakers overwhelmingly passed a bill banning Pride events. That same law allows authorities to use facial recognition technology to identify and fine anyone who breaks the law. It's the latest in a series of crackdowns on 2SLGBTQ+ rights under Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's far-right Fidesz party, which claims the law is about "child protection." Máté Hegedűs is an organizer of Budapest Pride. We reached them in Budapest.
NK: Máté, when you think about Budapest Pride, and the events you've been to, what kind of memories come to mind about Pride events in the past?
MÁTÉ HEGEDŰS: I have so many memories as an organizer for five years now. I had speeches, I organized registered groups, and I worked with a lot of volunteers. So, it's always a really fun event that a lot of people attend. There are families, and there are couples, and there are supporters and allies. So, it's always a great time for everyone, even though we are marching as a protest for our rights, which are being cut back for a few years now. So this year, we are organizing the Budapest Pride.
NK: So given all of that, but also given the reality of, of this law being passed, the risk of fines, will it go ahead this year?
MH: Yes, we are organizing, and we are going ahead as planned. We are still in contact with our legal advisors. And although there are, these scare tactics of being fined, being recognized by facial recognition by the police, we are still going. We believe that this is just for the police to, to scare away, and for the government to scare away people from attending. We strongly believe that we have the right to protest, and to, to assemble for common goals.
NK: So, you're pushing, pushing to make sure that this goes ahead in some shape or form -- despite the law. But are there those who, who are worried, and who are frightened at this point?
MH: I think there's a strong reaction from people who haven't been to the, to Budapest Pride, and who are not part of the community, who are saying that even though they wouldn't support our cause, this is much bigger than the LGBTQ community, which is nice to see. So, I hope that even though it's a scary time, our community is holding together, and gathering strength from all the solidarity protests, and Facebook and Instagram posts from, from abroad, and from Hungary, who are really supporting now our organization, the movement, and the community.
NK: The prime minister there has hinted in the past that, that something like this was coming, but when it, when it did pass -- 136 to 27 votes, that's how it all came down -- did those numbers, and that level of support surprise you?
MH: It's not really surprising because of the state of the opposition parties in the parliament. There is a majority for Fidesz for the last few years now. So, it's, it's sad to say that we are used to the fact that kind of whatever they want to do, they can do, unfortunately. Although the opposition parties, many of them support Budapest Pride, unfortunately, they don't have a lot of room to move around. It's important to know that Fidesz modified a lot of laws connected to elections, so it's really hard now to win an election against them because they made the system harder now.
NK: Yeah. You were prepared for this, it sounds like. But does that make the reality hurt any less?
MH: It wasn't really surprising. We are starting a petition that people can join and sign, so they can receive more information as we go ahead. But this just shows that there's no more democracy anymore in Hungary.
NK: Well, how do you cope with that? That's a, that's a big thing to, to feel and say.
MH: It's really hard to, to explain, like, how in the last 10 years, our reality changed because of Fidesz. So at this point, it's not that surprising. The sad part is that they could do a lot of changes with actual problems, for example, health care, education system, inflation, but they are focusing on just grabbing onto this power by scapegoating minorities.
NK: The law, as you know, does not just affect the pride festivities. And the legislation is, is under the umbrella of what the government in Hungary calls its "Child Protection Law". And we've heard that reference to children and protecting children when this kind of legislation comes up elsewhere in other parts of the world, including in North America. What could this legislation mean for Hungarians in their daily lives -- specifically, of course -- 2SLGBTQ+ Hungarians?
MH: I think the, the mostly impacted communities is the trans community. So since 2020, legal gender recognition is not available for the trans community. And with this modification of our fundamental law, they are still pushing this agenda that people can only be a man or a woman, for example. In their everyday life, when they go to the post office, if the police stops them, or they go to the doctor, their documents are not matching their identity, and their appearance or expression. And this could be a big stress factor. And can cause a lot of problems.
NK: The European Union has, has pushed back when Hungary has tried to, to bring in this kind of legislation or similar laws in the past. The Council of Europe's human rights commissioner said he was, quote, very concerned about this new law, and he was calling on the president there to, to veto it. What would you like to see from other EU states, the international community, do in response to this?
MH: A really strong statement is coming to Budapest Pride on the 28th of June, and joining our march, if it's possible for them. It can give us protection from the police, and it can show the world that it's not completely upside down, which it feels like sometimes. That there are still good people supporting this cause.
NK: Máté, I appreciate your time. Please take care.
MH: Thank you so much.
CH: Máté Hegedűs is an organizer of Budapest Pride. We reached them in Budapest.
[ambient]
Search And Rescue Award
CH: Quebec has over 3,000 kilometres of coastline. That's a lot of space for something to go wrong. So volunteers with the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary have to be ready to move fast when a distress call comes in. And one team in particular is exceptionally good at that. Earlier this month, at the annual Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary Volunteer Awards ceremony, members of Matane's 54th Unit were recognized for their search and rescue efforts in Eastern Quebec. Ted Savage leads that team, and he also received an individual honour for exceptional bravery. He told CBC Quebec about the rescue that got him that award.
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TED SAVAGE: It's a group of us, actually. We went out on a particularly nasty night to do what we would consider to be a fairly standard medical evacuation from a large cargo ship that had deviated to the port of Matane because of a crew member on board that was particularly ill, and needed immediate hospital attention. So our, our, our mission was to get him off the ship and to hospital as quickly as possible -- it was a life-and-death situation -- and it was the 15th of November. So, [chuckle] it was a dark and stormy night. And there was already ice in the Marina. We had all of our boats out of the water. Everybody had all their boats out of the water, but we had a standby vessel on, on a trailer, which we took to Matane from where I am in Métis Beach, and went, got it in the water. And a crew of four of us went out. And, I'll make a long story short, it was a particular, particularly difficult, and arduous, and risky operation, but we succeeded, and got him off the ship, and to hospital attention. And quite frankly, saved his life. So, it was, it was very satisfying. And, and it was tough. It was a little traumatic, but it was tough. And, and it was a tough situation, yeah. There is this tendency in our culture these days, I think, that equates volunteerism with something that is less than professional. And I, I very much see it in a different way. And, and all of the people I work with in this service see it differently as well. It's the same thing with firefighters. You may be part-time, you may be a volunteer, but you're trained to professional standards. And when we have successes like this in very, very difficult conditions, with, with, with great outcomes, it does allow us to have the opportunity to say, well, okay, you know, for example, we had a rescue in Rimouski that we were part of in 2018, which was very close to shore. It was very dramatic. Everybody saw it. It was on the news, it was reported, all that type of thing. But most of what we do, nobody sees. And because everything is confidential in emergency services, we don't broadcast that type of thing. So, when we get awards like this, and we have successes like this, it allows us to highlight the fantastic people that, that, that do volunteer. The Jonathan Bernays of the world, and the Kevin Isobels, and the Francis Belangers, and the entire team that puts all of this stuff together, there's really remarkable people. And they, they respond to the opportunity that this type of service gives them. And we're very grateful for that.
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CH: That was Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary Volunteer Ted Savage talking to host Alison Brunette on CBC Quebec's Breakaway.
[newsy theme]
Israel/Gaza Negotiations
Guest: Shira Efron
CH: Protestors on a highway in Jerusalem today, voicing their discontent with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. They're objecting to Israeli hostages being put in danger by the renewed bombardment of Gaza. But Israel shows no sign of pulling back on its offensive. Yesterday, airstrikes killed more than 400 people in Gaza; those strikes continued today at a lower intensity. And the military retook part of a key corridor that bisects Gaza. In a televised address last night, Prime Minister Netanyahu talked about the ceasefire agreement.
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BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: [speaking: Hebrew]
TRANSLATION: From now on, Israel will act against Hamas with increasing force. And from now on, negotiations will only take place under fire.
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CH: Shira Efron is watching all this from Tel Aviv. She's an analyst with the Israel Policy Forum think tank.
NK: Shira, when you hear a clip like that, I mean, it is a ceasefire even salvageable -- a deal salvageable -- at this point?
SHIRA EFRON: The chances of salvaging the deal are very, very slim, and getting slimmer by the moment for two reasons. Netanyahu and his coalition are adamant about returning to war for objective reasons, which we can discuss, but also for political reasons for Netanyahu himself. And because there's another side to this agreement: Hamas. And Hamas has no interest in returning to a ceasefire when there is no end of war in sight. And therefore, even if we're able to salvage, let's say, extend the ceasefire by a number of days, the strategic deadlock means, in all likelihood, we're returning to war, unfortunately.
NK: Yeah. You've been following these negotiations very closely. To remind our listeners, the first phase of the ceasefire began in January. It saw Hamas release 33 hostages, and Israel freed about 1,800 Palestinian prisoners and detainees. You hinted there at the start of our conversations, Shira, but the second phase of the ceasefire deal, why is this part proving so difficult?
SE: So the first phase of the ceasefire deal expired on March 1st. And I have to say because skeptics among us did not even think that we're going to see through the completion of the first stage. Because, as I said earlier, we have a strategic deadlock. Israel, to begin with, had two war aims. The first war aim was to dismantle Hamas as a military and a governing authority in Gaza. The second war aim that actually came afterwards was to return the hostages, which Hamas still holds. There are 59. And so, these two war aims are in contradiction, right? And the first phase was about, okay, let's return as many hostages as we can. But at the end of the day, the agreement was that after 42 days -- six weeks of the initial ceasefire -- the IDF was supposed to withdraw from Gaza. The parties are going to come to an understanding of who rules Gaza the day after the war. And there's a declaration with guarantees from the mediators that the war ended. And this is just not something that the Israeli government is willing to do.
NK: And we've seen that the leader of the ultranationalist Jewish Power Party, Itamar Ben-Gvir, has, has now rejoined government, taking on, taking back his national security minister portfolio. What did you make of that move, and why that, that is important to Netanyahu right now?
SE: Okay. So, I do think it's important for your listeners to understand that there are objective reasons for Israel to pursue Hamas, right? The barbaric terrorist organization that inflicted the most horrendous disaster on the Jewish people since the Holocaust. And, and we do have to say it's a terrible leadership for the Palestinian people. So there is married to the argument of going after Hamas. Where it becomes complicated is, first of all, we're not sure that it's going to deliver the right results at the end of this campaign, the next war. But also, politically, why it matters. According to Israeli law, the coalition -- the Israeli government -- has to pass the national budget by next week. Otherwise, the Knesset -- the Israeli parliment -- disperses and the country automatically goes to elections. Netanyahu -- the prime minister -- does not want to go to elections because every poll has constantly showed in the past two years that he's not going to be a prime minister, he's not going to be elected. The numbers are against him. He's coalition partners. Itamar Ben-Gvir, who you mentioned, who actually left the government in protest over signing the ceasefire agreement, conditioned his return on a resumption of the war. So, Netanyahu is really shackled by his coalition partners with a narrow majority that he, and he needs every vote. This is where it gets really complicated, and it's very much against the desires of the Israeli public. Polling constantly shows that 70 per cent of the Israeli public, including right-wing supporters of this government, wants an end of war, the hostages back home, and going to elections.
NK: I do want to ask you about Hamas and how you think Hamas will respond to, to what is unfolding. The state of the ceasefire deal, but also the renewed attacks we've been reporting on?
SE: Right. So, I mean, Hamas is unquestionably to blame for this situation, right? There's no justification for any of its actions, but it's a terror organization. So, my expectations have been pretty realistic all along. And Hamas has always been clear about its demands. Hamas said we will return the hostages when the war ends, the IDF leaves our territory, and we have a guarantee there will be no resumption of the war. So, Hamas has been very clear about it. What is happening now, we're seeing already on the ground with Hamas placing IEDs. It has been able to restock and rearm, and it's ready to fight. It could, unfortunately, kill, murder some of the hostages, as we've seen it do. There's no incentive for Hamas -- who sees the, the hostages as an insurance policy -- to negotiate under fire, as Netanyahu suggested.
NK: This conflict has gone on for so long. And before October 7th, obviously as well. What do you think will end it?
SE: You know, it's so hard now when Israel, and backed by President Trump, right, in the White House, who's promising all hell to pay to speak about peace and diplomatic crowd. But I think that if 15 months of fighting in Gaza was essentially the IDF going with a wrecking ball through the territory, right, has not made Hamas surrender. There will always be new recruits. There's no, I know, I know, it sounds like a cliche, but there's no substitute to a long-term, really difficult diplomatic process. And if this bloodshed, right, that we've seen since October 7th on both sides is not turned into an opportunity and changing course, both for the Palestinians and Israelis, this will be tragedy for generations. You know, there are lives at stake here, many, many lives at stake here for Israelis and Palestinians.
NK: Shira, I appreciate your time. Thank you. And please take care.
SE: Thank you.
CH: Shira Efron is a senior fellow and research director at the Israel Policy Forum think tank. She's in Tel Aviv.
[ambient]
Schumer/Hostin
CH: It's been five days now since Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer voted to advance controversial Republican legislation, and avoid a government shutdown. And he's been explaining that vote, over and over again, ever since. The six-month GOP funding bill cuts non-defence spending by about $13 billion U.S. dollars -- and gives the Trump Administration even greater leeway to dismantle federal agencies. Mr. Schumer says that was the lesser of two evils. But only nine other Democrats agreed with that logic. And in an interview on ABC's The View, co-host Sunny Hostin asked him how he explains his logic.
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SUNNY HOSTIN: Governor Pritzker's chief of staff, Anna, Anne Caprara, has said the following. The fight going on in the Democratic Party right now is not between hard-left, right, and moderate. It's between those who want to fight and those who want to cave. And it gives me no pleasure to say this to you because we are friends. But I think you caved. I think you and nine other Democrats caved. I don't think you showed the fight that this party needs right now. Because you're playing with, by a rulebook where the other party has thrown that rulebook away.
CHUCK SCHUMER: True. [clapping]
SH: And so, in my view, what you did really was, in supporting that GOP partizan bill the Democrats had no input in, you cleared the way for Donald Trump and Elon Musk to gut Social Security, to gut Medicare, to gut Medicaid. Why did you lead Democratic senators to play by that book that the Republicans are not playing by?
CS: Okay. First, I'd say, Sunny, no one wants to fight more than me, and no one fights more than me. You got to fight smart. It is not, that bill had far less, it was bad. I hated it, but it does far less damage to, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid are far more susceptible to being eliminated, which is what that horrible Musk, can you imagine this guy Musk, a billionaire saying $11,000, $1,100 for a senior citizen is not necessary, or a Ponzi scheme?
SH: But aren't there cuts in that bill?
CS: There are many fewer cuts in that bill than would be in a shutdown.
SH: But they exist.
CS: Yes, they exist, but if you have --
SH: You have to work with the cards you have.
CS: If you have two choices, one bad, the other devastating, one chops off one of your fingers, the other chops off your arm.
SH: That's right.
CS: So, I want to fight, and we are fighting. We're going to fight every day on this, every day. Today, we're fighting them on Medicaid. Tomorrow, we're going to fight them on, you know, the next few days on tariffs. [clapping] We're going to fight them on Social Security. But I want to win and fight smart.
SH: Yes.
CS: Not just, I understand we want to stick it to them. We're going to stick it to them, and fight smart and win.
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CH: Democratic Senator Chuck Schumer, defending his choice to advance a Republican funding bill and avoid a government shutdown last week. He was speaking with Sunny Hostin on ABC's The View. Yesterday, Democratic congressman Glenn Ivey of Maryland became the first to publicly call on Chuck Schumer to resign as Senate minority leader in the wake of Friday's vote.