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The AIH transcript for January 31, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: There's a new tariff in town. Or at least, Donald Trump says there will be, as of tomorrow. He claims his imminent protectionist measures will return Michigan's auto industry to its former glory. But a leader in that industry says Trump needs to pump the brakes.

CH: There went the neighbourhood. We'll take you deeper into the story of a woman wanted for murder in two countries -- who spent decades in hiding in the small town of Taber, Alberta.

NK: Kicking and streaming. Spotify says it's more popular and profitable than ever, and that musicians are reaping the benefits. We'll break that down with the author of a new book about the online streaming platform.

CH: They took a shrine to him. In the weeks since film icon David Lynch died, his die-hard fans built up a memorial outside his favourite diner -- disembodied ears and all.

NK: Did they let sleepy dogs lie? No, scientists did very thorough research on how our canine friends feel about daylight saving time. And the results are pretty relatable.

CH: And...spectator spurts. Every so often, male Amazon river dolphins roll onto their backs and send a cascade of urine skyward -- possibly just to be cool, but possibly to send a message to other males.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio that guesses they're living pee check to pee check.

Part 1: Tariffs U.S. Autoparts, Taber Fugitive, Dogs Daylight Saving

Tariffs U.S. Autoparts

Guest: Glenn Stevens Jr.

CH: There's nothing Canada can do to forestall tariffs. That's what U.S. President Donald Trump told reporters today. But he also said that he'll lower the tariffs on Canadian oil and gas from 25 per cent to 10 per cent. And that those tariffs won't come until February 18th. He declared all of this just after his White House said 25 per cent tariffs on imports from Canada and Mexico are coming tomorrow, with immediate effect. The back-and-forth after weeks of confusion is leaving people -- and industries -- across the continent waiting to see what will actually happen and when. Earlier this week, at his Senate confirmation hearing, President Trump's nominee for commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, testified that tariffs would be rolled out in a two-phase plan -- some on February 1st, and some in April. In that hearing, Michigan Senator Gary Peters asked Mr. Lutnick how his government plans to prevent the tariffs from increasing costs for Americans. Here's what Mr. Lutnick had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

HOWARD LUTNICK: Michigan is one of the great places where we build things, and the car manufacturing went to Canada. It went to Mexico. It is important that that come back to Michigan, and come back to Ohio, and come back to the great states of America that can build. And so, I think a thoughtful tariff policy that drives domestic manufacturing, I think, is fundamental to the American workers, especially to the workers in Michigan.

CH: Glenn Stevens Jr. is the executive director of MichAuto at the Detroit Regional Chamber of Commerce, which represents Michigan's automotive industry. We reached him in Detroit, Michigan earlier today.

NK: Glenn, you heard what Howard Lutnick is saying. He's saying that this is going to be good for your industry, good for business. What do you think?

GLENN STEVENS JR.: Well, a couple of things that strike me there. First of all, yes, production has moved to Mexico, but it has not necessarily moved to Canada. In fact, as we all know, Canada has lost a lot of production and only recently has made some incremental gains. And Michigan has lost production. But we're very stable automotive regions now, you know, both Ontario and Michigan. If its thoughtful execution of trade and tariff policy, the administration will find and know that this is a very interconnected, very interdependent industry. And any tariffs put on Canada do not help Michigan's automotive industry, certainly not in the short-term.

NK: So, you do not support this idea of 25 per cent, a 25 per cent tariff on imports from Canada?

GSJ: No, it doesn't make sense right now because it would be so disruptive to this industry, which already had been, has been under intense pressure. Again, supply chain issues through COVID, the chip shortages, you know, global supply chain issues. And this would be very disruptive to an industry which, you know, is very fragile, operates on very tight lead times and margins, and does not, does not do well when it has to deal with wild swings to its supply chain.

NK: Yeah. And as you know, and as our listeners have heard, there's been so much back and forth and uncertainty, unpredictability, just even before an official, official announcement is made. If things go ahead, if these tariffs are put in place, what will that disruption look like right off the bat for the businesses you represent?

GSJ: Well, there's a lot of things that, that have to play out. But, you know, it takes thousands of components to put together a vehicle. And anything that disrupts it, meaning one part can disrupt that process. So, you know, what would happen is there would have to be some immediate changes to supply chain, and that does not happen overnight. And, eventually, we do feel that if, if tariffs are put in place on Canada and Mexico -- and/or Mexico -- that it would affect the cost of doing business, the cost of manufacturing, and eventually, the cost of a vehicle, and the consumer pays that price. So, in the short-term, while we do want to protect American jobs and grow American manufacturing, this is not something that we would want to see happen in the short-term.

NK: Have you, have your, has your organization or have you or your colleagues reached out to the administration? To the highest levels? Because we're hearing from you and others there who, who have told Canadians, you know, leaders who visited that they don't want this either. So, is that being communicated clearly to the highest office?

GSJ: It is being communicated, yes. We work very closely. In fact, our director of government affairs for MichAuto is in Washington right now as we speak, and is on Capitol Hill right now meeting with leaders. So, that's a, that's something we do. But we constantly are communicating with other trade associations on both sides of the border to make sure that we're working as one when it comes to issues like this that affect the industry. And, yes, we are definitely communicating that to our federal legislators in the highest levels. And, of course, it's difficult with the new administration, new people, and new people that haven't been confirmed yet either.

NK: What does it say to you, though, that despite your concerns and that communication you were talking about, that this appears to be going ahead?

GSJ: Well, I don't think it's either, it's not a, it's not a surprise either. We were expecting some significant change with this new administration on several fronts. So, there's nothing that's really shocking to us. There is, it's been also very clearly stated by Nominee Lutnick that the one of the major issues in the short term is addressing the illegal drug trade. And where that is, what the origin of that and what is happening with that, that's not something that I'm knowledgeable of. But the administration has been very clear about that. And no one should argue that that is something that needs to be brought under control. But when you implement across the board tariffs, other industries that are trading on a regular basis, daily basis, particularly the auto industry, are impacted. So, that's not something we, we feel is feasible at this time.

NK: And we should mention there are other industries in the United States who are welcoming these tariffs, fisheries, the dairy industry. But as you may have heard, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Canada is ready to deliver a, quote, purposeful, forceful but reasonable, immediate, unquote response. Are you concerned about potential retaliatory tariffs?

GSJ: Absolutely. Particularly with Canada. And that goes for Mexico, too. But, you know, here in Detroit, we literally can look out our window and see our partners and neighbours across the street from us or across the river from us. And we have a great working relationship, our auto industry does. It's very symbiotic and interconnected. And anything that disrupts that's important. But, you know, retaliatory tariffs, particularly in something like energy where the U.S. does consume Canadian energy sources, is something we're definitely concerned about.

NK: So, given the volatility, the uncertainty that, that, that you know well, how do you plan for tomorrow?

GSJ: Well, the auto industry has been through a lot. And it always is doing scenario planning. So, it always has to look at backup plans, feasibility studies for critical supply components. They always are looking at. It's, it's really the way business is done on this global trade basis every day now. But it can't turn quickly either. That's the other thing. These are complex, long lead time parts that ship around the world across multiple borders. Just here in our region with the Blue Water Ridge and Port Huron and Sarnia and here in Detroit with Windsor and, of course, the new Gordie Howe Bridge is coming soon. So, it's not something that can be changed very quickly, but everyone has to look at the scenarios.

NK: Glenn, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

GSJ: Yes, thank you, Nil. It's appreciated. And, hopefully, calmer heads will prevail, and, and we'll be able to continue, you know, making components and building cars for, for the people.

CH: Glenn Stevens Jr. is the executive director of MichAuto at the Detroit Regional Chamber of Commerce. We reached him in Detroit, earlier today.

[funk]

Taber Fugitive

Guest: Meghan Grant

CH: At a cemetery, in the small Alberta town of Taber, there's a tombstone for Diedra Grace Glabus, who died in 2022 at the age of 81. But according to U.S. authorities, that wasn't her real name. Her real name was Sharon Kinne -- and she was also known as the "Pistol Packin' Mama." This week, after following up on a tip, the Jackson County Sheriff's Office in Missouri said Ms. Kinne had spent decades hiding out among the 9,000 residents of Taber, after escaping a Mexican prison, where she was serving a sentence for murder. She was wanted by the authorities in Missouri as well. In a statement at this week's news conference, the Kinne family expressed gratitude that this chapter of their history could be closed and said -- quote -- “Sharon was a woman that never faced the consequences of her actions, leaving them for her children to deal with." Unquote. Meghan Grant is CBC Calgary's crime reporter. We reached her in Calgary.

NK: Meghan, how is your story, how is this news landing in Taber? Did people there have any idea that there was a fugitive living there?

MEGHAN GRANT: Yeah, it seems like they had no idea. People are pretty shocked. So, yesterday, in chasing this story, we contacted the mayor. A spokesperson for the mayor told us that we were actually the ones informing them. They had no idea. We spoke with a few friends and neighbours of Diedra Glabus, Dee Glabus, and they also were just in complete shock.

NK: This is a small place. It's known for its corn crop, as you know. What have you been able to piece together about the kind of life Dee Glabus was living there?

MG: Kind of one you would expect for a small-town senior I mentioned we caught up with some of her friends. They were playing a bridge game at the seniors' centre there. She was actually one of their bridge buddies. Her friends say that she was really into quilting and needlepoint. She baked a lot of banana bread, apparently. [NK chuckles] She was a volunteer with the food bank. And then, kind of for her earlier Taber years, we pieced together that through newspaper archives. So, we know she arrived there in 1973. That was with what's believed to be her second husband, a guy named Jim Glabus. And so, that's kind of back in her working days. So, she and Jim actually owned a local motel there -- the Taber Motel. They went on to be in real estate together. And then, Jim died in 1979. He was just 38 years old. So, obviously, that's curious, given what we now know about his wife, and the fact that he was so young -- 38 years old.

MG: So, you know, looking into records from the local newspapers around that time, there was some reporting around a fatality inquiry. The judge did find that Jim died from complications related to alcoholism and diabetes. And then, we know, again, based on kind of those old newspaper clippings, that Dee Glabus married again a couple of years later, that would be like the early '80s, to a guy named Willie L. And Willie L. then died in 2011 at the age of 79. So, that's kind of what we've been able to piece together.

NK: If we go back in time quite a bit to 1960, she was going by the name Sharon Kinne. She comes onto the authorities radar. She's in her 20s at that time. And just give our listeners briefly a sense of what happened.

MG: Yeah, she's in her early 20s in 1960, and it's, we'll take you to March. That's when she first comes on police radar. She's married to a guy named James Kinne, who is shot in the head while laying in bed. So, Sharon calls police, investigators arrive, and she tells them that it was her two-year-old daughter who shot her father. She says this girl has a history of playing with her dad's guns. The cops at the time said that they believed her in this moment. In fact, they ran a test on the two-year-old. They ran a trigger test to see if she was strong enough to pull the trigger and found that she was, in fact, kind of barely, but able to pull that trigger. So, they didn't question her too hard at that point in time.

NK: And then, she's linked to another murder in the United States.

MG: Yes. So, pretty quickly after James's death, Sharon Kinne gets this $30,000 insurance payout. She immediately buys a Thunderbird convertible, immediately starts an affair with the car salesman, a guy named Walt Jones. Now, she wants Walt to leave his wife and he says no. And the timeline on this is important to keep in mind. There's only two months between these two killings. So, by May, this is two months later, after her husband's death, Patricia Jones, Walt's wife, is found dead. She'd been shot four times. And by then, police are starting to put things together. So, days after Patricia Jones's body is found, Kinne is arrested and charged with both murders.

NK: Charged with both murders. Was there ever a conviction?

MG: Yes and no. So, there's a first trial, and that's related to the Patricia Jones death. The jury acquits Sharon Kinne. There's a second trial. That's for the husband's death. She's convicted and she's sent to prison. She spends about a year-and-a-half there. But then, the conviction is overturned. There was an issue at trial with the jury. Two more trials take place. Both end in mistrials. So then, by about 1964, she's on bail, waiting for a fourth trial in her husband's death. And then, she skips town.

NK: And she ends up in Mexico, but eventually escapes prison there.

MG: Yeah. So, she heads to Mexico. She's got a new name by this point. And then, within a few days of arriving there, she meets this guy in a bar and tries to rob him in his hotel room a short time later. She ends up shooting him. And then, she ends up shooting, actually, a hotel employee, too, who hears the gunshots and comes running. That hotel employee survived. The other victim did not. And then, in the course of that homicide investigation, police searched her Mexico hotel room. They find another gun. They then allow the Kansas City police to run ballistics tests on the gun found in the hotel room. Turns out it's the same gun used in a Patricia Jones killing -- the one she was acquitted of. But because of double jeopardy laws, she can't be charged again. But she can be charged in the Mexico murder. She is. The press down there. Give her the nickname La Pistolera. She goes on trial. She's convicted and sentenced to 13 years in prison. She's in a Mexican prison for five years. Five years into this sentence, and one day, she doesn't show up for roll call. Turns out she's managed to escape from that prison.

NK: You mentioned the questions about the deaths of her husbands in Taber, or at least the first one. Have authorities said anything about looking at those investigations again or reopening investigations?

MG: Well, at the press conference down in Kansas City yesterday, they made it clear that while this case, this cold case, is considered closed now, they still want more details about the life that Sharon Kinne -- Dee Glabus -- was living kind of from 1969 on. So, from, you know, the escape from Mexico prison until today. So, they are asking anybody with those kinds of details to get in touch with them. Because there is still an interest in piecing together some of those years.

NK: Meghan, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

MG: You're welcome.

CH: That was CBC reporter Meghan Grant in Calgary.

[jaunty instrumental]

Dogs Daylight Saving

Guest: Lavania Nagendran

CH: By now it feels like there's consensus. Springing forward and falling back are the worst. Right? No one likes time changes. Humans don't like them -- and, it turns out, at least some dogs don't like them either. That gratifying finding comes courtesy of researchers at the University of Toronto Mississauga, whose work has just been published in the journal PLoS One. Lavania Nagendran is the co-author of the paper, and a PhD candidate in the Department of Anthropology at UTM. We reached her in Markham, Ontario.

NK: Lavania, your study looked at two groups of dogs -- working sled dogs and then pet dogs. What did you find?

LAVANIA NAGENDRAN: Yeah. So, we want to look at the two groups to see whether working demands would influence how daylight savings impacts them. And, surprisingly, we did find that for sled dogs, they took at least one day to adjust to the daylight saving times, which just means that on the day of daylight savings, they were up an hour earlier, waiting for their handlers to arrive. But handlers arrived an hour later than they were initially arriving. For companion dogs, we didn't see any clear trends between Daylight Savings Time and their activity.

NK: So, they didn't care. They went about their day.

LN: Yeah, it seems like it.

NK: And did those findings surprise you?

LN: Yes. I wasn't expecting a difference between the two dogs. We were just expecting dogs to kind of react in a similar way. But now that we see this trend, it does make sense. Like, the working dogs have more demand. They're also housed in a different kind of environment. The study was done during COVID times. So, pet owners had a lot of flexibility in their schedules, and there was usually more than one person in the home as well. So, it's not surprising that the pet dogs or the companion dogs already had a more flexible routine. And perhaps that allowed them to more readily adjust to the daylight savings time.

NK: And do you have a sense, I don't know if this was part of your research, but I'm curious, were the working dogs upset with their owners that they kept them waiting an hour?

LN: It's hard to tell. We didn't take any video recording, unfortunately, So, we're unable to tell about, like, any physiological changes or signs of anxiety. But they were definitely up.

NK: You know, many people with pets or companion dogs, as you were saying, will swear that their dogs are waking them up early after a time change. Do you think they're mistaken?

LN: No, not at all. I have a dog as well. [NK chuckles] So, that was my initial hypothesis when going into the study. But we do believe that perhaps there's just a lot of variability in pet dogs. We're also seeing some trends in terms of their age. So, as dogs become older, their activity is lower in those mornings just generally. So, there's many factors that could influence the activity of dogs. It's just if you are concerned about your dog adjusting to DST, perhaps a more flexible routine may help with that.

NK: You looked at the fall-back time change, not spring-forward. But do you think springing forward would yield similar results?

LN: Yes. I think that based on human data, we're seeing that the spring-forward tends to have a more exaggerated impact on human physiology and behaviour than the fall-back. Based on that, I do believe perhaps that we would see those same trends in our pet companion dogs. So, it's definitely worth, you know, furthering the research in that field.

NK: In terms of how this works, you had volunteers put trackers -- motion trackers -- on their own dogs. Why did those dog owners decide to be part of the research? What did they tell you?

LN: So, we were able to recruit people through word-of-mouth referrals and also posters. I mean, the participants are were amazing. They're so enthusiastic. They love their dogs. They want to know so much more about their dogs. This project would not have been possible without their help, especially because it was during COVID times. So, this was done all remotely. We had to ship the items to them, and then they, you know, read instructions or would call us to ask us how to place the materials on their dogs. They kept recordings of, you know, if they were away on vacation, things that would impact their activity. So, we're so grateful to them. And it honestly would not have been possible without them. These participants definitely love their dogs so much, [chuckle] as we do as well.

NK: Is it that love but also curiosity that they told you, I mean, it's a bit of trouble that they went to, certainly. So, did they tell you why they were so invested?

LN: I think it was curiosity. I think a lot of people, they just want to know so much about their dogs, especially if it has to do with their wellbeing or their schedules. If there are ways that we can, you know, help our dogs better adjust. I think that's something most of us are interested in. And I think the participants came from that as well.

NK: You did this in the context, as I understand it, of a bigger project researching domestication and its effects on dog behaviour.

LN: Yes.

NK: What insights did this offer on that front?

LN: So, this is part of a bigger project where we're looking at different groups of pet dogs, working dogs, and then wolves as well. Also, dogs are housed in the same environment as those wolves. My colleague and I, Ming Fei Li, we're interested in, basically, domestication. We're both anthropologists, so we want to really understand it from an evolutionary perspective. So, our big question, again, is how do we as humans influence the activity of dogs or vice versa? And this kind of adds to that question because it shows us that human mitigated changes in scheduling or timing does impact our dogs. But dogs tend to be quite flexible. Even in sled dogs, where we see that one-day change, it only took a day for them to readjust, which could be considered quite quick.

NK: So, what are the takeaways, you know, for pet owners, but also people who don't, who don't like this, this adjustment. And it feels like it takes them a lot longer than a day. Are there takeaways that you even took for, for your dog and yourself?

LN: Yeah. So, I think the biggest takeaway is that, at least for dogs that have very strict routines, we do see that DST does influence them, at least for that first day. This is not necessarily a negative thing. However, if we want to be more mindful of just, you know, slowly adjusting them, or maybe we don't want our dogs to wake us up one hour earlier, perhaps a gradual change over that, like, the couple of days leading up to DST would be a good idea. For my dogs specifically, I feed them within a window. So, instead of feeding them at a specific clock time, I usually feed them, you know, 30 minutes to 30 minutes before or 30 minutes after. And that allows him to just be a little bit more not on the dot.

NK: Chill. A little more chill. Yeah, understood.

LN: Yeah.

NK: Lavania, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

LN: Thank you so much.

CH: Lavania Nagendran is a PhD candidate in the Department of Anthropology at the University of Toronto Mississauga. We reached her in Markham, Ontario.

[snappy instrumental]

Dolphin Pee Height

CH: Okay, it's just you and me here. We can discuss this like adults, frankly and honestly. I'm just going to ask you directly: if you could pee straight up into the air, would you? I should say that, in this scenario, you live in a river. Okay. Where your choice is: empty your bladder invisibly -- no commotion, no spectacle, no oomph. Or send a stream of urine cascading gloriously skyward, glittering in the sunlight and splashing emphatically down somewhere just over your head. If you chose the second one, I think you're right. And so do male Amazon river dolphins. Recently, on a research trip to central Brazil, scientists were stunned to see something they'd never seen before. As Claryana Araùjo-Wang told New Scientist, quote: "...We saw a male flip his belly up out of the water, expose his penis, and then proceed to urinate into the air." Unquote. Herewith, a dramatization.

[the sound that makes you have to pee. Rushing water, peeing, and a dolphin yipping]

CH: [NK laughing] Breathtaking. They witnessed this behaviour dozens of times. Urine streams arching as high as a metre above the dolphins, and landing around a metre north of their snouts. And a majority of the time, another male would then show up and hang around where that urine had landed. Now, one theory is that that urine contains chemical information. The one guy pees into the air so it’ll audibly hit the water and other guys will hear that and swim over. And then, interpret that chemical information. Two, the peeiers and their peers both just think it’s cool and awesome because it is. And in the dolphin community -- and in the scientific community -- it’s really making a major splash.

[soul]

Part 2: Spotify Royalties, David Lynch Shrine

Spotify Royalties

Guest: Liz Pelly

CH: Ten billion dollars. That's how much Spotify says it paid the music industry in 2024 -- that’s the most the company has ever spent in a single year. The streaming giant made that announcement this week, in a post celebrating its first 10 years in business -- or what the post referred to as "a decade of getting the world to value music". But many artists say it's done just the opposite -- they say low royalties paid by the streamer have had a devastating effect on their bottom line. Liz Pelly is the author of the new book, Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist. We reached her in Brooklyn.

NK: You've been reporting, Liz, on Spotify for years. When listeners or audiences see or hear $10 billion going to the music industry, that sounds like a large number to them, certainly. Is Spotify, from where you sit, trying to say we're the good guys?

LIZ PELLY: I think so, yeah. You know, like, not only are they really highlighting the fact that they passed along $10 billion to the recorded music industry last year, but right now, on their own blog, they also have a headline that says on our $10 billion milestone, and a decade of getting the world to value music. And I think that that's a really interesting choice of words in their headline because, for years and years, and, you know, throughout the whole streaming era, you talk to people in the music business, specifically independent musicians and people who work at independent record labels, and a phrase that you always hear is how streaming devalues music. How the normalization of the idea that you should be able to have access to, you know, supposedly all the music in the world for close to $10 a month has really sort of encouraged not just the financial devaluation of music, but also sort of the social and cultural devaluation of music.

NK: I don't know that people feel that they're doing that or they they just certainly don't want to be doing that necessarily. But that's where, you know, your book and your journalism is trying to come in and, and inform folks. I think I almost heard an eyeroll when you read the headline of the, of the blog post. What do you want to, to underline for folks? Because people might assume Spotify pays a certain amount per stream. You break down in your book how it's actually more complicated than that. So, in simple terms, as much as possible, can you, can you break down how it works?

LP: To Spotify's credit, they pass along a lot of money to the music industry. So, I think an interesting thing is that returning value to the music industry, to the recorded, the global recorded music industry, isn't necessarily the same thing as returning value to music or to musicians. Because there are so many different complicated calculations that determine both how much of that pool of revenue goes to each of the rightsholders. And then, you know, there are these complicated calculations that impact how much of the value passed onto each rights then goes to musicians. So, I think something that's really important for people to understand is that, you know, that might seem like a big number, but streaming economics are based on this really complicated model called pro rata, where, you know, artists, you know, they get their music on streaming services, their music gets licensed to a streaming service through a rightsholder, which may be a record label, it might be a distribution company. Each rightsholder is paid according to the percentage of total streams that their catalog receives out of all the streams that happen on Spotify.

NK: So, what are those artists to do in this reality?

LP: That's a great question. You know, like, for a long time, there have been people in the music business have, especially people in the independent music world, have advocated for this new type of royalty model called usercentric, where instead of having this calculated, this complicated revenue model that is sort of a user pays their $10 a month, the streaming service gets their 30 per cent cut, and then the extra $7 goes to the musicians that you stream, you know, some people in the independent music world think that type of royalty model would be more straightforward and more fair.

NK: You've also talked about and written about the cultural shift. It's not just dollars and cents, it, what do you think that is doing culturally?

LP: I think one thing that we've been hearing for a long time is that, in the streaming era, something that has sort of emerged as a kind of byproduct of the ways in which streaming services really prioritize shaping user behaviour around their own discovery products. So, their own playlists, their own personalization features, things like AI deejay or day list on Spotify. But it also puts a lot of power into the hands of the platforms to influence what type of music you are listening to, whether it be, you know, some people talk about how they feel like streaming services, in an effort to hook them as listeners, repeatedly sort of serve them music that they already are familiar with. It's a lot of, you know, reliance on listening history because what they're concern is is retaining you as a subscriber. And an easy way to retain you as a subscriber and keep you streaming is to show you stuff that you've already proven that you, you know, in the past were likely to listen to. Because streaming services really are built as collaborations with the major labels who own the copyright to a really large percentage of the music that streaming services see as, like, most valuable to their product. So, they definitely have this sort of, like, outsized influence and negotiating power when it comes to their relationship with streaming services. It's a little bit of an advantage over independent musicians. Not, like, a little bit of an advantage, it gives them an advantage over independent musicians.

NK: Liz, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

LP: Thank you so much.

CH: Liz Pelly is the author of the new book, Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist. We reached her in Brooklyn, New York.

[folk]

‘Highway Thru Hell’ Driver

CH: Juri Agapow has landed himself on a reality show -- by accident.

SOUNDCLIP

HOST: Rob pulls up to a spun-out farmer, hauling 14 tonnes of hay.

ROB: He sort of stuck there until the snow melts or someone shows up to help pull him up the hill.

CH: That's a clip from a recent episode of the long-running Canadian show Highway Thru Hell -- and the farmer they mentioned is Mr. Agapow. Last year, he got stuck. And this morning, he told the CBC how that, very unexpectedly, landed him on TV.

SOUNDCLIP

JURI AGAPOW: I was hauling hay to one of our ranches on the West Fraser Road, which is just between Quinnell and Williams Lake on the west side. And there's a road that just opened up again shortly before, it was about a year ago. And I knew there was bad grades on that road, like up to 13, 14 per cent. But I never drove it before, but I needed to get hay to my cows there. So, I drove up, actually, the day before and loaded up the hay just north of Prince George. And then, on the way home, actually, my, my, my main truck I was driving with, actually, blew the motor. [chuckle] So, that was the first thing. I had to come home, borrow a truck from a neighbour, and then went back. And, unfortunately, then I came into a very heavy snowfall. There was a warning in effect. I knew it was coming. That's why I was going the day before. But, of course, with that one day delay, I ended up right in that situation. So, I was driving up, and the roads were getting more and more snow-covered. So, I put my chains on the front of the truck, back of the truck. I thought I was well-prepared. And then, I hit this 13 per cent slope. And even with the chains on in 4x4, there was no way.

SHELLY JOYCE: How did you end up on Highway Thru Hell? Like, how does that come into play?

JA: Yeah, basically, like I said, I was stuck on the hill. I was sliding backwards. I got her kind of on hold, so she wouldn't slide anymore. So, I stopped somebody coming down to call me a tow truck. And then, when the tow truck arrived, finally, two hours later, there was not just the tow truck. There was a couple of vans, there was a couple of pickup trucks, and they all jumped out with camera equipment and filming equipment. And, all of a sudden, like, what's going on. And they said, well, just act normal. Do what you would normally do. [SK chuckles] And I guess that they were starting to film that episode for that show, eh?

SJ: Highway Thru Hell. So, you end up on, on this TV show by accident.

JA: Definitely did, definitely did. So, totally unexpectedly, eh?

SJ: So, what, were they able to get you out?

JA: They got me out. They actually pulled me up all the way to the hill. And then, once I was on top, I guess the producer came to me, explained me all the details, had to sign a waiver, still had to pay for the tow. I thought that would be free, at least. But --

SJ: Yeah!

JA: No! And then, everything was all right. So, I made it home and got the hay for the cows. So, a happy ending to the story, but completely unexpected and definitely not staged.

SJ: Did you see the episode? It aired this week. Did you get to see yourself on TV?

JA: I still have not, no. [chuckling] And so, I'm still looking forward to it. I got a bunch of emails and texts and calls from friends and neighbours saying, oh my God, you know, you're on TV, but I have yet to see it. [SJ laughs] So, once I'm home here, I'm actually gone right now. Once I'm home in a couple of days, I'll definitely take the time into researching it, and, well, see myself on screen, I guess.

CH: Chilcotin rancher Juri Agapow speaking with Shelley Joyce, host of Daybreak Kamloops.

[indie rock]

David Lynch Shrine

Guest: Kat Fox

CH: It's been just over two weeks since the death of director David Lynch. And since then, fans have been making a pilgrimage to a place not many people make pilgrimages to: Bob's Big Boy in Burbank. The diner was a favourite of the eccentric film-maker - -who visited daily, at exactly 2:30 pm, for a milkshake and many cups of coffee. While there, he'd scrawl ideas down on paper napkins -- some of which became projects like Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks, and Mulholland Drive. Now, the exterior of the restaurant has become a spontaneous shrine to all things Lynchian -- with flowers, and mementos, and hand-written notes from fans piled high at the feet of the fibre glass statue of the Bob's Big Boy mascot by the entrance. Kat Fox is an archivist affiliated with UCLA who has partnered with the diner's owners to collect and catalogue the objects left by fans. We reached her in Los Angeles.

NK: Kat, can you give us a sense of what it is like to be in your office right now? I'm imagining, you know, where you're storing what you've collected from this shrine so far.

KAT FOX: Yes. I come to you from an office that just reeks beautifully of rosin by the hundreds and coffee grounds by the pound. My office is stacked high with boxes. And today, I'm intaking and indexing owls and severed ears.

NK: Oh. [chuckling] I definitely have a picture and a sense of what it's like. And I get the sense that it's bringing you a lot of joy.

KF: It's a wonderfully fulfilling work. Yes.

NK: And the shrine itself, if we were to walk up to Bob's Big Boy in Burbank, what would we see?

KF: Yeah, you can imagine, right? When, when I first arrived to the Burbank Bob's Big Boy to pay tribute on the Saturday night after the announcement of his passing, it was nearly midnight. There's a low murmur of mourners heard even from around the back of the diner. The air is faintly stiff with smoke, first from kind of the nearby Eton Fire, and then from dozens of people huddled around in the chill of the night, some smoking some choke and smokes from packs of blue American Spirits. They're laying at the feet of the Big Boy Statue. Some just giggling about interview anecdotes or behind-the-scenes trivia. And many more speaking in these reverent, hushed tones about their first or their favourite experiences with Lynch's art. And then, the memorial itself, you know, the neon glow of the Bob's Big Boy sign bathed everything this ruby red. And the memorial sprawls under that unblinking gaze of the Big Boy. Hundreds of roses, cups of damn fine coffee, and slices of cherry pie from just inside. Photos, and filmstrips, and letters, and paintings, and Roy Orbison records, and electric candles. And, of course, the severed ears.

NK: It sounds in your --

KF: It's a sight to behold.

NK: I'm, yes, I'm sure it is. And I'm going to ask you about those ears. Because I suspect people who, who don't know David Lynch and his work are going to wonder what that is all about. So, standby for that. [KF chuckles] But just how you're describing it, it is quite beautiful, and almost like one of his films, one of his screenplays.

KF: Exactly, yeah. There is something really wonderful about, you know, the kind of assortment of that kind of classic '50s Americana wholesomeness, underlayed with, you know, all of these kind of stranger elements.

NK: Where do the severed ears come in?

KF: The severed ears, along with everything else, they're all references to, you know, these moments, either from his films, or moments from interviews, or behind-the-scenes lore that all of these Lynch fans are paying tribute to. So, everything is a little wink and a nudge to something about his work.

NK: Are there, there objects or one in particular that is most meaningful to you?

KF: I, I originally went there as a mourner myself. And, at first, what I left is between me and the Big Boy. But, specifically, all of the original art and the handwritten letters that poured out from fans coming, essentially, to say goodbye to him, to say thank you to him, were really the most wonderful thing to see of, you know, an artist's passing, inspiring further art. It's just incredible to see.

NK: Does that intensity surprise you even as someone who, who will miss him deeply, you know, as a fan?

KF: You know, it doesn't. The way that it's manifested is really special and wonderful. But spontaneous memorialization, these grassroots shrines, even seatbelts along the road at the site of traffic fatalities, these types of things are a really common way for a memorial to manifest because it can provide immediate catharsis before or even just in place of formal monumentation in the built environment. It's accessible, it's collaborative, and it can be extremely personal and creative, as it was in this case. This one at Big Boy started just hours after Lynch's passing was publicly announced.

NK: As you collect and continue to index and catalog these items, what is your ultimate goal here? Where would you like to, to see it all go?

KF: Yeah, we're in talks right now with a few places to find the most appropriate placements for all of the ephemera. Really broadly, it'd be nice to see some of the items end up accessible to the public again, as this kind of was a collaborative, authorial, artistic effort. Whether that's as part of a fan ephemera collection in a dedicated Lynch archive, a digital gallery, or even as a curated memorial installation inside the Burbank Bob's, which we're in talks about now.

NK: How long do you think they'll, they'll let it continue outside of the restaurant?

KF: Yeah. So, the archive or the memorial itself has been collected. The only real reason that we removed the artifacts when we did was because L.A. finally had some much-needed rain in the forecast. And we wanted to ensure the memorial didn't become a sopping heap before we could preserve it. But Bob's has been really generous and hospitable, and very tolerant to this kind of sudden deluge of mourners and memorialists. They weren't aware of what was going on until it was already underway. But they are an institution that really understands itself as a cornerstone of local culture, and leans really hard into its industry history and its regional history. So, it was kind of a shoe-in for the Lynch memorial.

NK: Yeah. And David Lynch was, was a regular, as our listeners heard. So, there's that connection as well.

KF: Exactly. Yeah. It's really a spatial anchor for a spontaneous memorial like this to manifest very near to some kind of place of great meaning to whoever's been lost. So, yeah, in Lynch's case, you know?

NK: You mentioned the much-needed rain, this, and, you know, we've certainly covered the impacts of the, of the fires there in Los Angeles. This is a tough time for people there. And do you think that that's, that's an integral part of all of this as well, this coming together?

KF: Absolutely. You know, the loss of Lynch himself is planetary in its scale, but it's also a very local gouge in the heart of a Los Angeles that is still smoldering from, you know, the most recent just devastating wildfires, ones that forced Lynch himself to evacuate from his home, alongside countless others, just before his passing. And these losses feel, I think, like a compound wound to L.A.'s character and culture. So, kind of not only is, I think, the Los Angeles community already memorial-minded and seeking spaces of community and solidarity in grief after so much has been scorched from our map. But I think really beneath an atmosphere that's celebratory and loving of Lynch's life and work there also kind of calls this great trepidation and a fear that we're losing space in our world for visionaries like Lynch. I think there's a lot of hurt in Los Angeles right now.

NK: Kat, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

KF: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Kat Fox is archiving the objects left at a spontaneous memorial for David Lynch at Bob's Big Boy in Burbank. We reached her in Los Angeles.

[hip hop]

Record-Breaking Drummer

[really fast drumming]

CH: This is not just any drumming that you're hearing. It's potentially world-record-breaking drumming. Behind the drum kit is Johnny Racine, who is attempting to beat the current Guinness record for the longest marathon drumming session by an individual, which is 150 hours and one minute. Mr. Racine is set up at the Brass Monkey in Ottawa, where events will be held all weekend, so people can show support, and dance along, and presumably get Mr. Racine coffee. The CBC caught up with him before he began his world record attempt.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHNNY RACINE: I'm a rock progressive drummer first. I play all styles. So, for me, this is the required setup because I like to play different styles of music. And rock progressive is like Rush and all that. So, that's what we use as big kits. So, I would have in total, I think it's 13 pieces. So, I have four rack toms, [playing rack toms] one floor tom, one gong drum, two snare drums, two bass drums, two concert toms, four rocket toms, and then a big gong cymbal. [a big gong] And a multitude of other symbols.

GIACOMO PANICO: And a couple of wristbands I see there.

JR: The wristbands are important. Got to keep the sweat off my hands, and wiping it off my forehead.

GP: And so, the plan is to play a little bit of everything for that, for six days?!

JR: That's correct. I have to beat 150 hours and one minute.

GP: And so, what are the rules here? How long can you go before you can take a break?

JR: So, for every one hour of playtime, I get a five-minute break. So, that adds up to two hours for every 24 hours. And I can bank those five minutes.

GP: What's your strategy?

JR: My strategy is to try to play for 12 hours straight, and have an hour off. The most I've ever done is about eight hours.

GP: You're going for 150!

JR: Yeah. Crazy, I know. [chuckling].

GP: Why are you doing this?

JR: I want to raise awareness of autism. I was diagnosed autistic at age 47, and I'm 50 now. It was brought to my attention in 2010 that I should get tested because a mental, I had a bad mental breakdown. So, when I finally did get tested in 2022, well, it turns out, yeah, I'm on the spectrum. So. I want to raise awareness of it because I'm still learning a lot about myself. And also, I wanted to find a way of giving back. So, I looked around at different charities to see who might fit the bill that I liked. And it turned out that Ability Dogs does because they train service dogs. Service dogs are really important. But then, I thought about it, and I thought, well, I am I own, my own dog. And I relate really well to animals. And some people have a lot of issues with, you know, they could be, they could be epileptic at the same time. There's all sorts of other things, PTSD, stress, anxiety, social anxiety, and these dogs help them.

CH: That's Johnny Racine speaking to Giacomo Panico on Ottawa Morning. Mr. Racine is still part-way through his Guinness World Record attempt, which -- if he's successful -- will go until Tuesday morning.

[calypso]

Part 3: D.C. Crash: Safety, New Pain Meds

Tariff Effects

CH: 'Twas the night before tariffs, and all 'cross the land, business owners were baffled, their heads in their hands. Confusion and apprehension are the main sentiments uniting Canadians across all industries on the eve of U.S. President Donald Trump's promised 25 per cent tariffs on Canadian imports. Today, White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt denied previous reporting saying they wouldn't come into effect until March 1st. But uncertainty remains about precisely when and how various goods will be affected. Speaking with CBC Radio this morning, business owners in Quebec said the lack of answers has been frustrating. Zoe Desborough owns an online yarn store in the Eastern Townships.

SOUNDCLIP

ZOE DESBOROUGH: This is the one thing that is the most annoying about all of this is that there's no clear information. It's, you know, I have to go look at pretty much every website -- official website -- I can to find a little bit of information. But, again, I heard, you know, it's a small part of the tariff being put in this weekend. And then, in April, maybe a bigger part. And so, I'm just crossing my fingers that I'm not affected. But, currently, it looks like I will be.

SEAN HENRY: Yeah. Remind us again how much you rely on U.S. clients.

ZD: So, 50 per cent of my wholesale, so I wholesale my products, and 50 per cent of my clients are in the States. And I also import a lot of my raw goods from the States. So, if Canada will be retaliating with our own 25 per cent tariff on everything, yeah, [chuckling] everybody's going to get hit. And so, it's going to be a, it's, it's a hard week, month, and it's been hard since November to try figuring out how business will be evolving.

CH: Online store owner Zoe Desborough, speaking to Sean Henry on Daybreak in Montreal. Christian Kaiser is a dairy farmer in Saint-Herménégilde, and the vice president of an agricultural producers' union in the Townships.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRISTIAN KAISER: On the cow floor, a lot of farmers are kind of worried because we don't know what's coming. We don't know what the demands are going to be. We don't know. I guess, farmers, farmers are worried because the, just the information's not out there. And what they're going to be asking, what our government's going to do. And the uncertainty on the Canadian government. But we really, I'm really confident that they're working behind the scenes right now, and trying to get even the tariffs, work it out so it's only a short-term thing. And this get all figured out and fixed. Because, I mean, there's over 30 states in the U.S. that their main trading partner is Canada. So, this is going to hit American consumers big, big time as well.

SEAN HENRY: What would you like to see the government do at this point -- the federal government?

CK: For one, we hope they protect the whole dairy sector and supply management, and not give up any more of our market. Because Canadian farmers, we want to invest in the, in our economy. We want to keep growing. We want to produce more and high-quality and become more efficient. And when you keep cutting off on our market, we can't get more efficient because you can't get bigger, you can't. So, we, we hope the Canadian government's going to stand up and protect the, the Canadian farmers and Canadian consumers.

CH: Quebec dairy farmer Christian Kaiser, talking to Sean Henry about the apparently imminent U.S. tariffs.

[lounge jazz]

D.C. Crash: Safety

Guest: John Cox

CH: It will be months before we have definite answers. So, in the meantime, there has been rampant speculation about why an army helicopter collided with a passenger jet on Wednesday night at Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C. The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the crash, which killed 67 people. And, in the meantime, John Cox is watching closely. Mr. Cox is an accident investigator and former airline pilot. We reached him in St. Petersburg, Florida.

NK: John, we're learning, and you already know, that this airspace, this airport, certainly busy. There, there have been warnings and close calls in the past, including, as The Washington Post was, was just reporting, the day before this, this crash, when another plane had to abort a landing to avoid a crash with a helicopter. So, given all of that, and given what you know, do you think that conditions were building to a tragedy like this one?

JOHN COX: No, actually, I don't. And I've flown in and out of Washington Reagan National Airport for decades. I've flown airliners into that runway. I have dealt with helicopters that have passed below me and behind me. And this, these flight procedures have been in effect for decades. It is a little unusual to have the helicopters in the proximity of airliners, but the procedures were good in that the helicopters were below you. And they tended to stay on the east side of the Potomac River. The pilots were specially trained -- both in the airliners and in the helicopters. And so, these flight procedures worked really well for decades. Now, has there been occasions where there have been aborted takeoffs and aborted landings? Yes, but that happens at a lot of different airports, Toronto, Montreal, wherever. Those things do happen. Do I think Reagan National Airport has a higher incident? No, I don't. And I don't think the statistics bear that out.

NK: I think people listening to you, many will be comforted by what you're saying. But also, it underlines a lot of the questions and raises some other questions as well. We're learning in the reporting that this was an annual night proficiency training flight, as the wires put it, for the soldiers on this helicopter. So, there'll be questions about that. The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating, of course. But it can take, you know, a year or more to, to fully understand what has happened. So, without speculating, obviously, based on your experience, what stood out to you?

JC: My question was, once I heard the air traffic control tapes, was what did the helicopter see? Where was the helicopter? What altitude was the helicopter? And what did they see? The jet, looking at the profile that it flew, it flew exactly what it should have flown, right? And the altitudes were all correct. Air speeds were all correct. So, the thing that the NTSB is going to focus on is what the helicopter saw, and what they expected to happen. And then, from there, we should get an idea about what occurred night before last.

NK: Because it's hard for people to, for any of us, most of us, to, to try to visualize because this isn't like some, a car running a red light and, you know, the other driver has their head turned or something like that. I mean, there's radar, there's communications, as you said. They know they're close to each other. So, how could this happen?

JC: Well, that's, that is the central question, how could this happen? These procedures have worked well for decades. What was different night before last? Why, what, that night, why didn't those procedures on that vertical separation work? What happened? And that's what's going to be essential. The flight recorders off of the Black Hawk will tell an awful lot. They will specifically give us the track, and the altitude, and the air speed that the helicopter was flying. And that may be very central to understanding how this tragedy unfolded.

NK: There is a lot of reporting that you've likely seen in The Washington Post, The New York Times as well, and perhaps others, about staffing in terms of air traffic control. Understaffing is something that The New York Times has, has reported. Has that problem been building? That, that issue of staffing and working conditions?

JC: Clearly, air traffic control is, staff, staffing issues are very significant and very serious in the United States and elsewhere. So, the FAA has had difficulty recruiting. They've had, training is extensive before somebody becomes a full performance level controller. So, the pipeline of candidates that go through training, and there's a pretty high washout rate as well. So, to get a full performance level controller takes years. And that means that, that the understaffing issue is not going away in the near term. Funding is part of it, but it's also, we're asking an awful lot of the controllers that are there. A lot of them are having to work mandatory overtime. And this all says that we need, as an industry, as a country, we need to face this and improve the, the quantity of air traffic controllers that are controlling aircraft in our skies.

NK: That is not the kind of messaging we're hearing from your president. And, you know, he's raising things that are certainly not proven. An investigation is, is ongoing. And what people seem to be raising is the issue, again, of staffing, not who those people are, but that there aren't enough of them. When you hear those kinds of comments, and you know this kind of investigation, and also the lives lost, what does that say to you? How does that sit with you?

JC: The, I've been an aircraft accident investigator for 35-plus years. And there is a worldwide standard for the methodology that we use in investigations. And it is stay with the facts, don't speculate, and let the investigation lead you where it leads you. Let the evidence determine what the report says and the cause when you publish the cause. To speculate at this point, this early in an investigation for cause is premature. It goes against the worldwide standard for investigation. To politicize any individual, at this point, there has, there have not been extensive checks into the training records of the pilots, of the air traffic controllers. All of these things need to be done before any allegation could even be considered, much less stated in a public forum.

NK: In the meantime, as that investigation goes on, there are dozens of families, and dozens and dozens of more people, who are devastated by what has happened. And we've spoken to, to some of those, those folks on our program. What do you say to the, knowing these kinds of investigations, to people who are grieving and in agony waiting for answers?

JC: The hardest thing that I have to tell them as an investigator is to be patient. It is much more important for us to get the right answer than to get a fast answer. So, as difficult as it is, there is a process. It's a proven process. And the thing that we need to focus on the most is making sure that something like this does not happen again.

NK: John, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JC: My pleasure.

CH: John Cox is an aircraft accident investigator, and a former airline pilot. We reached him in St. Petersburg, Florida.

[ambient instrumental]

B.C. Road Rescue

CH: When most people see a news story about drivers stuck on a snowy road, they avoid that road. But when Luke Pittman saw a story online this week about people stuck on a forest service road, he volunteered to help. And then, went to that service road and was able to get some of those stuck people out. The drivers ended up there after the W. R Bennett bridge in Kelowna temporarily closed on Monday, and they decided to take an alternative route. Here's some of what Luke Pittman told the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

LUKE PITTMAN: So, I have a fully custom-built, it's called a tube chassis buggy or crawler. It's on 58-inch tires and can go pretty much anywhere.

CHRIS WALKER: Fifty-eight-inch tires?!

LP: Yes.

CW: Is it, is it street legal?

LP: It is not street legal, no. I have to trailer it wherever I go.

CW: Okay. So, what did you do?

LP: Well, I saw the article. I loaded up some lunch and snacks, threw the buggy on the trailer, and started to head down toward Penticton with the intention of heading up the 201 to make sure everybody got home that night.

CW: And what did you find when you got there?

LP: It wasn't as bad as I was expecting, to be honest. We, we ran into, was it four, four vehicles on our side. There was a number of vehicles from the other direction, too, that had to get pulled out from the Beaverdell side. But the most interesting thing I found was a dump truck.

CW: A what now?

LP: A dump truck. Yes, there was a dump truck up there. He went to help out his, his neighbour and recover his neighbour's Tundra. And, well, needless to be said, he got stuck, so I had to recover him as well.

CW: Wow. Now, is your rig there, is it heavy enough to pull, like, I think, okay, you've got big tires, but it's, you need, like, a certain amount of weight to be able to yank those big trucks out of the ditch or whatever. How did you, explain how you did this?

LP: Yeah, absolutely. So, the rig itself weighs 8,500 pounds, which relatively speaking, against other four-wheel drive trucks, is a bit heavy, but it doesn't compare to a dump truck. You're right. So, what we have to do is, is called anchoring it, where we'll connect it to some kind of tree or anchor point behind so my, my rig can't go anywhere while it's winching.

CW: Ah, okay. So, you rely on the, the, the big tree to, to shore up your truck as the, as you pull?

LP: Yes, exactly. Yeah.

CW: Have you done this kind of thing before?

LP: Yeah, I've done this for five or six years now. And I've, I would guess I've done somewhere upwards of 100 recoveries over those five years.

CW: No kidding!

LP: Yeah.

CW: Why do you do it?

LP: Because somebody needs to. Tow trucks can't get there. Search and rescue won't, won't go in and rescue vehicles. The only other option for recovering vehicles in the middle of winter would be helicopter, which I've seen before. And I can do it much cheaper.

CW: [chuckling] Yeah, I bet.

CH: Luke Pittman of Peachland, B.C., speaking with Chris Walker, host of Daybreak South in Kelowna.

[bluegrass]

New Pain Meds

Guest: Stephen Waxman

CH: For the first time in 25 years, a new painkiller has been given the green light in the U.S. It's called suzetrigine, and it can help manage acute pain. Which other painkillers can do, of course, but this one has one crucial difference: according to the FDA, unlike opioid medications, the drug doesn’t create a high, and cannot be addictive. Dr. Stephen Waxman is the director of the Center for Neuroscience and Regeneration Research at the Yale School of Medicine. He has spent years studying pain and how our nerves process it. We reached Dr. Waxman in New Haven, Connecticut.

NK: Dr. Waxman, how are you sizing up the significance of this approval of suzetrigine's approval by the FDA?

STEPHEN WAXMAN: Well, I think the significance is very great. And it's this, this is proof of concept that this approach -- this non-addictive approach -- to relieving pain can work in human beings. We're not exactly where we want to be, but we now know that it's possible in humans to reduce pain by targeting one particular molecule. It's called NAVI 1.8.

NK: And I want to get into the specifics with you about how this drug is said to work compared to, to opioids. But we just want to be clear upfront. You were not involved in this research, and you don't have any financial ties to this drug. Correct?

SW: Both are correct.

NK: So, just to break it down for our listeners, you know, opioids reduce pain by binding to receptors in the brain. They get nerve signals, right, from different parts of the body, as I, as we've learned, and many of us are learning now. How would this drug work differently?

SW: This drug does not target anything in the brain. It targets a molecule, a sodium channel, a molecular battery that enables our pain-signaling peripheral nerves to work. And it blocks those molecules. It puts them to sleep so that no pain signals are traveling from an injured limb, an injured part of the body, to the brain. And because the drug does not act on the brain, does not cause euphoria, does not have any effect on the brain, does not produce double vision, impaired balance, sleepiness or confusion, this represents an entirely new class of medicines.

NK: The Associated Press is saying that there were more than 870 patients studied overall. That doesn't sound like a large sample size. What would you say on that front in terms of that research into its efficacy?

SW: Well, it's not a very large number of patients. This is the first proof of concept. Undoubtedly, over the coming years, decades, many more patients will be observed and studied. And my expectation is that biomedical science will build upon this drug to develop even better second generation and third generation drugs.

NK: Because, at this stage, there, if I'm reading correctly, it's not necessarily that effective in chronic pain.

SW: Right now, what we know is that this drug is effective in acute pain. That's pain lasting a few weeks after an injury or after surgery. An entirely different class of pain conditions are chronic pain. That's the pain that you get with peripheral neuropathy, diabetic neuropathy, or the neuropathy that occurs together with chemotherapy, or the pain that occurs after nerve injury and can last for four months or years. We don't yet know for sure whether this approach will be effective in those sorts of long-term pains. We believe there's a good chance that'll be the case, but that needs to be studied.

NK: What would you say, Dr. Waxman, to those who are not just skeptical but, but also concerned when they hear a story like this? Because, as you well know, you know, the impact of OxyContin and the opioid crisis overall and all of its layers. OxyContin was marketed as less addictive. Doctors believed that, their patients believe what their doctors told them, and so much damage was done.

SW: All I can say is that OxyContin was a long acting, slow release form of an opiate. It was known to have addictive potential. This is a drug that should have, in theory, should have no addictive potential. And the studies done thus far show no addiction. But caution is, is, is good.

NK: Do you think that after that experience and what is still unfolding, that physicians, regulators, pharmaceutical companies, and Americans have learned enough and are skeptical enough to make sure that isn't repeated with, with this medication or others? Do you think there's been enough change in understanding?

SW: The OxyContin story, from the start, was one of either failing to pay attention to a warning signal or sweeping that signal under the carpet. And it was a story of overselling a drug. That's what happened. I'm a scientist. I'm not involved in drug marketing or sales or anything of that sort. All I can say is there's no scientific evidence for addictive potential here. And I hope [chuckling] that the drug will be marketed in a way where there's no chance for that. If there are any side effects, we need to learn about them and put them right out, out front.

NK: And I remember, you know, years ago, in the, in the early years of the crisis, speaking with a pharmacist, but also doctors. And they were talking about how in previous years, decades past, they were taught in school about pain and dealing with pain and their patients. And it was always eradicate it. Make sure they're not feeling any pain. Has the teaching around pain and pain management changed as well?

SW: Pain is very complex. It's an entire experience. And I'll give you an example. I have a colleague who has pain due to shingles. She has post shingles neuropathy. And I asked her what's the pain like? She described five components to the pain. And so, pain has many, many dimensions. We may not be able to eliminate all of the components of pain. And we may not drive them down to zero. What we need to do in a very safe way is relieve pain as much as we can.

NK: And do you think that this signals -- this, this drug signals -- a shift in that direction? In the kind of direction you'd like to see based on, you know, what you're seeing with your research at the Yale School of Medicine, but also in your practice?

SW: You know, the way I look at it is if you think about the development of modern medicines, the first, the statin drugs have had an immense effect on cardiovascular medicine. They've saved an immense number of lives. The very first statins had modest effects. And it was only in the second and third generation of, of the statins that the real benefit to society occurred. We know that this drug can reduce pain. It does not totally alleviate it. But we know this approach has a lot of promise.

NK: Thanks for your time, Dr. Waxman. I'm glad we could speak.

SW: Good speaking with you.

CH: Dr. Stephen Waxman is the director of the Center for Neuroscience and Regeneration Research at the Yale School of Medicine. He's in New Haven, Connecticut.

[brisk piano]

Leonard Cohen Auction

CH: Leonard Cohen had a way with words. And now, some of his words can be yours. Dozens of typed and handwritten works by the late Canadian poet and musician are up for auction. Lyrics, letters, postcards, and even one item that combines sexiness and '80s technology: an explicit fax. All of which come largely from a collection assembled by Mr. Cohen’s friend Aviva Layton, and his former partner, Anjani Thomas. You can bid on these snippets of his work -- but you can also bid on snippets of the artist himself. Among the offerings is a small, metal locket containing a lock of Mr. Cohen’s hair. Bidding began at $25, and it's currently still only in the triple-digits. But if you’re interested, keep your hair on. The auction won't officially take place until February 28th, so there’s plenty of time to lock down those locks.

The AIH Transcript For January 31, 2025

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