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The AIH transcript for January 29, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: A holy rite goes terribly wrong. At a huge religious gathering in northern India, millions of people rush to take a dip in sacred waters -- and dozens are killed in the ensuing stampede.

CH: They'll always have Paris. Trump withdraws from an international climate pact again, so a coalition of U.S. governors bands together again, to pledge that their states will abide by the climate goals set in the Paris Agreement.

NK: Off duty. A staffing shortage leaves Prairie communities short on RCMP officers. The deputy mayor of Steinbach, Manitoba tells us that -- among other things -- the streets of his city have become speedways for drag racers.

CH: Father go figure. A Louisiana aquarium has a new star, and a mystery, on its hands after a baby shark is born in an aquarium that is home to exactly zero males.

NK: Lost and found lunch. Scientists in Denmark are absolutely spewing joy after a discovery they thought was a bunch of fossilized sea lilies turns out to be a perfectly preserved pile of 60-million-year-old vomit.

CH: [both chuckle] Eureka!!! And...missed nomer. The governing body overseeing athletics in Australia takes on what it calls a "bold, new identity" -- by swapping the order of the two words in its name.

Happens It As, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that doesn't mind a little reverse psychology.

Part 1: India Festival Stampede, Trump Paris Agreement, Prehistoric Barf

India Festival Stampede

Guest: Hari Kumar

CH: The most sacred day at the largest religious gathering in the world has turned deadly. A record 100 million people were expected to take part in a river bath at the Maha Kumbh Mela festival in Northern India today -- a holy ritual Hindus believe will cleanse them of past sins and end the process of reincarnation. But early this morning, a stampede broke out. At least thirty people were killed, and dozens more injured. Hari Kumar has been covering the festival in Prayagraj for the past few days. He's a New York Times reporter, and we reached him just as he arrived back home in New Delhi.

NK: Har, I know you've just come back to New Delhi. What did you see when you arrived at the site of the festival?

HARI KUMAR: So, it was, it was millions of people were there. Millions of people were there. And everybody wants to have the holy dip at the holy time on the holy spot, right? And that's why, that's why the pressure of devotees is so much there on the spot that this kind of craziness took place.

NK: And so, in the moments that the stampede broke out, where were you? What did you see?

HK: So, when the stampede broke out, we were at our tent. So, the pressure of devotees was so much, and there are so many devotees who were sitting on the city and sleeping on the riverbank. And so many fresh influx was taking place. And then, at 1ish today, that fresh influx, the barriers, the barricade couldn't hold. And then, because of the pressure of the devotees, the barricading broke down. And then, everybody ran towards the river. And in the process, they trample the people, those who were sitting on the river side and those who were sleeping. That was in between 1 a.m. to 2 a.m. And many of the devotees wanted to have the holy bath a little later, say, around 3, 4 a.m. because that is considered the most auspicious time. So, because of that, the stampede took place.

NK: Did you see the victims?

HK: We met some of the victims, those who are looking for their family members. Their family members were missing. And those people, they themselves had some injuries on their back because of the, because the people ran over them. So, and then some of them were complaining that my uncle is missing, or my wife is missing, or my, yeah, yeah, something like that.

NK: How would you describe the scene?

HK: It was a complete chaos situation. And then, people left their belongings, and slippers, and bags, and, and other belongings, and they all were lying on the river bed. And so, it was a quite chaotic situation. And one can imagine that when such kinds of incidents take place surrounded by millions and millions of people. So, it's, it's it's a very big decision. And most of these people, those who are, those who were present there, they are from the, from the, India's villages. And most of them were 40-plus 50-plus people. So, they, they, they, they, they, they just have no idea how to handle the situation. And among the many of them lost their belongings. Many of them lost their family members. Many of the members were missing, and they have no idea how to phone them. And but, but, but, but, but the situation was brought to under control within hours.

NK: They, as you say, the people who, who came, may not have known how to handle that situation. But one would imagine, and hope, and I know there's criticism there from opposition politicians and others, that, that officials there should definitely know how to handle a situation like this. And, obviously, these kinds of things have happened before. There were the people killed at a train station near the festival back in 2013. There was more recent stampede deaths as well. So, what kind of protocols besides those barricades were put in place?

HK: So, there are very standing operating, standard operating procedures. And they're using technology. They are using CCTV cameras. And the huge police command control centre is created. And they were claiming, before this incident, they were claiming that, that our CCTV cameras with the artificial intelligence will tell us where the population pressure is increasing. It seemed that somewhere somebody made a mistake or there was an error of judgment someplace. Or they ignored the, the, the trigger by the CCTV camera. Or they allowed, they allowed many more number of people to gather at a limited spot. And somewhere something went wrong. And it's a matter of investigation that what went wrong. I mean, the, the government has already initiated a judicial inquiry. And they, they, they, they, they say that we will try to find what went wrong.

NK: Do you think there will actually be change based on what's happened in the past? You know, you mentioned the inquiry and the questions. Does this time feel any different than the previous times?

HK: Government has more resources. Government has more sophisticated technology, and government has the previous experience, or at least these administrators, they have the previous experience of dealing with the situation. But, again, every time the crowd is more and more and more. I mean, when it took place in 2019, they claimed that 250 million people participated in that over a period of five, six weeks. This time, they're claiming that 400 to 500 million people are expected to participate over the full 46 days of the, of the festival. So, the number of people is increasing. And there is always in such kind of a situation, there is always a scope of error. Somebody made some mistakes somewhere. It's a huge area. The whole festive area is around --

NK: It's a deadly mistake.

HK: Yeah, the whole festival area has spread to 10,000 acres, right? And, and, and within that area, and when you have created a kind of temporary city out of nothing on the river bed.

NK: You said it was, the situation was brought under control in a few hours. How are they dealing with things since? I imagine that there are still large crowds. So, how are they making sure people are safe now?

HK: There are still large crowd there. What happened, what happened is that there were, entry were more, and exits were less. And that's why it created a population of pressure. So, if entry and exit are meeting, as many number of people are entering, as similar number of people are exiting, it can create a problem. But if many number of people are entering, and the less number of people are exiting from the, from, from, from the river, then there is the scope of having this kind of event. And this is what has happened early this morning.

NK: Thank you for this, Hari. Please take care.

HK: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CH: Hari Kumar is a New York Times reporter based in New Delhi. And that's where we reached him.

[bright instrumental]

Trump Paris Agreement

Guest: Casey Katims

CH: It's official: the US has withdrawn from the Paris Agreement...again. Yesterday, the UN confirmed it had received notification from the Trump Administration that the U.S. would be quitting the climate change accord, just as it did during his first term in office. And, in another echo of that time, an alliance of 24 American governors have pledged that their states will continue to honour the Paris Agreement, and work toward curbing greenhouse gas emissions. Casey Katims is the executive director of the U.S. Climate Alliance. We reached him in Washington.

NK: Casey, your alliance was formed when Donald Trump withdrew from the Paris Agreement the first time he was in office. Were you expecting it to happen this quickly this time?

CASEY KATIMS: We knew coming in that the administration would come in prepared to make the same misguided decision. But we have a decades-long track record in our states and territories of advancing impactful action and solutions to the climate crisis, and are ready to fill the void left by the federal government as we did last time.

NK: Donald Trump is already targeting aspects of the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency, including reviewing a rule that empowers the EPA to regulate greenhouse gases. So, could any potential changes at the federal level make it harder to do what you want to do? To, to crack down on polluters at the state level?

CK:

So the federal government in the United States sets the floor for regulatory action, but they don't set the ceiling in most respects. And most of our states across the U.S. Climate Alliance are already enacting more ambitious, more protective measures to tackle climate pollution and create the clean energy future. The impact will be, in many cases, in non-Alliance states and territories. Our responsibility is to continue advancing the solutions that our governors have signed into law, and are actively implementing. States and territories across our coalition have clean energy standards that are creating a pathway to fully 100 per cent clean electricity grids. They have carbon markets where they are putting a price on carbon and generating critical revenue for climate mitigation measures. They are advancing methane reduction programs in the agriculture and land use sectors. And so, all of the solutions that our states are advancing, using their authority at the state level, will continue regardless of what happens at the federal level.

NK: What message does what is happening at the federal level convey, though? Obviously, your work will continue as you're saying. I hear the fight in your voice. Does it have a chilling effect in terms of the messaging it sends out?

CK: You know, our governors, on the day that Donald Trump announced that he would once again be withdrawing from the Paris Agreement, sent a message to the international community in a letter to the UN Climate Change Secretariat to make sure that the global community understands how much authority is vested in states and in governors, so that the international community understands that climate action in the U.S. will not stop just because the federal government is taking a different approach. I think for the stability and the long-term durability of global climate cooperation through the Paris Agreement and through the United Nations, we certainly have a big job to do, and our governors are committed to doing just that. To ensure that not just Americans, but people all over the world understand that climate action is going to continue.

NK: Your press releases mention the governors that are part of this alliance. You talk about bipartisanship, crossing party lines. Three of the 24 governors in the alliance are Republicans. The rest are Democrats. So, are you trying to bring more Republicans on board?

CK: Our coalition has been bipartisan since its founding in June of 2017. We immediately were bipartisan, and we have been since our founding. Our governors don't believe that climate change is a party issue. When cities are facing evacuations and damages from wildfires, when they're being evacuated for floods, when they have failing crops because of droughts, the climate crisis does not discriminate on the basis of party. And our doors are always open for any governors across the United States who want to partner with us, roll up their sleeves, and tackle this crisis.

NK: Are you hearing from more, are you hearing from other Republican governors?

CK: You know, we are in conversation all, you know, our governors work with all of their colleagues. Governors in the U.S. are, you know, they're peers, they're partners with their colleagues, especially on a regional basis. And those lines of communication are absolutely open. But, again, our commitment is to ensuring that the states who are committed to upholding the goals of the Paris Agreement have the tools, the resources, the support they need to do just that. And that's going to continue to be our focus.

NK: Can it be effective if you don't get more Republicans on board?

CK: I think all you have to do is look at the impact that Alliance states and territories across our coalition are having. We had, as of 2022, which was the last full year of data for greenhouse gas emissions, had already driven down climate pollution 19 per cent below 2005 levels across our coalition. And we're on track to reduce our collective greenhouse gas emissions by 26 per cent by the middle of this decade. And we are working to achieve a pathway of cutting our emissions in half across our coalition by 2030. So, if you look at the hundreds of millions of dollars that are flowing into communities to create new good-paying jobs, to open new battery manufacturing plants, to new, open new EUV manufacturing plants, to install heat pumps, to install other clean technologies like solar panels that are lowering electricity bills. Our governors are driving real impact and real results. And over the next four years, we're going to continue to build on the progress we've made, and create the foundation for future federal action.

NK: What would you say, Casey, to those who think this is, this is a good gesture, a nice idea, but would say that the Paris Agreement is meant to be an agreement between nations, not parts of nations?

CK: The role of state and local governments can only serve to strengthen the durability of the Paris Agreement. Across the world, the United States is not alone that there are sometimes changes in federal leadership. And we've seen the same happen not only in the United States, but in Australia and Brazil. And when you don't have a federal government that's committed to tackling the climate crisis, state, local, and regional governments across the world can ensure that their countries continue to make progress towards their emissions reduction goals, and keep us on a path to a livable planet. And a safer, more resilient, healthier future. And what I always like to say is our governors were here before Donald Trump was president, and our governors are going to be here after Donald Trump is no longer president. And it is actually the role that state, local, and regional governments around the world can play, can ensure that climate action is durable. And that, you know, the Paris Agreement structure and global climate cooperation can only be strengthened by having all levels of government involved.

NK: Casey, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

Prehistoric Barf

Guest: Jesper Milan

NK: Jesper, does the fact that this is prehistoric vomit make it less disgusting than fresh?

JESPER MILAN: Yes. It doesn't smell anymore.

NK: [chuckling] Good. What does it look like? Just describe it for our listeners.

JM: It's, it's totally white. It's preserved in white chalk. And then, it's a small collection of skeletal bits from these animals that are called sea lilies. So, it doesn't look disgusting at all.

NK: But sea lilies sound beautiful.

JM: Yeah, It's a very delicate creature. They are related to starfish and sea urchins, but look more like a plant.

NK: But they were eaten and then thrown up. And that's what brings us to this conversation. [both chuckle] What did you think, an amateur fossil hunter found this, brought it to you and the museum. What did you think when you first set eyes on it?

JM: Well, my very first look at it was not, I was not very convinced because it was not prepared. He had only noticed there was a few bits of sea lilies lying in the rock.

NK: What do you mean by prepared?

JM: They hadn't cleaned it off, probably.

NK: Oh, I see!

JM: So, we started to carefully clean it. And with a very fine airbrush, we could dust off all the chalk. Then, we could see it was a collection of small sea lily bits, lying in a small circular lump, a pellet shape.

NK: And so, how long did that process take?

JM: That took a few days for my consolidators to do that.

NK: And how big is it?

JM: It's 3.5 centimetres in diameter, so it's not very big.

NK: Okay. And delicate, obviously. So, a few days to do that work. And then, when you take a look at it and you realize, okay, this is vomit. [chuckle] Well, how did you react?

JM: First, first, we saw it was just one sea lily that has died in a particular way. But then, we had one of my colleagues from Holland looking at pictures of it. And he could see it was not only one sea lily, it was two different species of sea lilies that were mixed together in this small pellet. And then, that's when we started to think about, oh, this could be vomit. [soft chuckle]

NK: And have you come across prehistoric vomit before?

JM: I've seen it from, from a few other places in the world. It's not so common to get it preserved. Because normally, vomit is mostly soft things that doesn't get fossilized. But in this case here, it consisted of a lot of skeletal plates made of calcium. They are very easy to get preserved. So, in this case, it was all the hard parts that were thrown up again after the animal had been eaten.

NK: And your thinking is that this is around 66 million years old. How do you land on that number?

JM: It's because it was extracted from a cliff site in Denmark where the cliffs are very well-dated to 66 million years old -- just the end of the Cretaceous period.

NK: So, I'm just thinking about the amateur fossil hunter who found this and brought it to your museum. Are there a lot of folks like that doing this? Should they be doing this work if this is what's there? I mean, should should your teams not be there?

JM: Yeah, but I'm professionally employed. I have a lot of administration to do. [NK chuckles] And after my teaching, and exhibitions, and writing scientific papers, and he's a retired person. He has all the time in the world.

NK: So, you're okay with amateurs taking on this work from time to time?

JM: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They are doing a great job in Denmark. So, I think two-thirds of the specimens in our scientific collection are found by amateur collectors.

NK: You mentioned that the, the, part of the reason why this, this was so well-preserved is what was left behind -- the bones. Why else do you think this was able to, to stay intact this way -- the barf itself?

JM: It's the, it has to, yeah, it must have got buried in the seafloor quite fast. So, I could imagine it was being covered by limestone mud or something quickly before the animal started to mix it up.

NK: And what do you know at this point, if anything, about what creature did the vomiting? Ate these sea lilies and then didn't like the way they felt.

JM: We have a few possibilities, but my main suspect is one of the small bottom-dwelling sharks. They are still alive today, that kind of shark. They are called bull head sharks or Port Jackson sharks. They feed on the sea starfish, and sea urchins, and mussels, and crayfish, and a lot of things with hard shells. And we find the fossilized teeth from that kind of shark in the same deposit as the, as the vomit.

NK: Fossilized, what?

JM: The teeth from these sharks.

NK: Ah, teeth.

JM: Yeah, teeth. Yeah.

NK: So, this is the first piece of fossilized vomit you have in your collection. It goes on display to the public in just a couple of weeks now. Do you think it's going to be popular?

JM: I hope so. It has been in the media all over the world. I'm totally shocked by the reception by the media. [both chuckle] We wrote the press release aimed for the local newspaper and perhaps the local television stations. And, suddenly, I was called by Washington Post, and New York Times, and BBC, and I've seen it in Chinese and Russian news. And it's, it's spread all over the world in less than one day.

NK: Hey, people love discoveries and fossils. And, I mean, even if they don't love vomit, it's a universal. We can all relate.

JM: It's a small feelgood story from the end of the Cretaceous, and it's something everybody can relate to. [NK chuckles] Just been eating something and throwing the rest up.

NK: When you, when you entered this field and started doing this work, is this the kind of moment you dreamed of where you would be celebrated and world-renowned for, for prehistoric vomit?

JM: [laughing] except for the vomit part, it's, it's one of the better days, yes.

NK: Jesper, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

JM: Thank you.

CH: Jesper Milan is a paleontologist at the East Zealand Museum. We reached him in Faxe, Denmark.

[folk]

Athletics Australia

CH: Jumping

[sc]

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: Did you notice that they changed their name, too?

MAND: No, I didn’t even see it.

WOMAN #2: Oh, they swapped it around.

CH: [NK chuckles] All of those clips are from a story on 10 News First in Australia, about Athletics Australia -- the governing body for athletics…in Australia. An organization that took a good hard look in the mirror and saw the need for dramatic change. It also seems like maybe it looked in the mirror and saw its name, but backwards. Because it has embraced what it describes as a "bold, new identity" -- and Athletics Australia has rebranded itself as...Australian Athletics. According to the organization's CEO, Simon Hollingsworth, Australian Athletics replacing Athletics Australia is "about re-imagining what athletics means to Australians". Well, sure: now "athletics" is the word that comes second. So congratulations to everyone involved…I think. Some will say they can't see that it makes any difference, really.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: What do those outside the organization think of the change.

WOMAN #2: I can’t see that it makes any difference, really.

CH: I mean, her, for example. But it's no big deal if it's not major progress: so much of athletics is just running around in circles.

[chiptune]

Part 2: Prairie RCMP Staff Shortage, Fatherless Shark

Prairie RCMP Staff Shortage

Guest: Michael Zwaagstra

CH: If you're in the Prairies and you feel like you've noticed fewer RCMP officers on the roads, you're not imagining that. The agency has issued a countrywide internal memo asking frontline officers to volunteer to fill shifts in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. The RCMP are so short-staffed in both provinces, they're asking Mounties from the rest of the country to pitch in for two-week stints starting this spring. Michael Zwaagstra is the deputy mayor of Steinbach, Manitoba -- one of the communities that's facing a shortage. And that's where we reached him.

NK: Deputy Mayor, what does this shortage look like and feel like in Steinbach?

MICHAEL ZWAAGSTRA: Well, we certainly notice when we're down in officers there's less proactive, there are fewer proactive measures being taken. So, for example, a longstanding issue in our city is the issue of traffic, particularly racing on our main street. It's a significant enough problem that a couple of years ago, council decided to add an officer to increase it from 17 to 18 to have that officer deal exclusively with traffic issues. But, of course, when numbers are down, that means that we, that officers are pulled away from doing the routine patrol, which is still important, and they're having to deal with crisis situations. And when you don't have that, you know, the full number of officers, those important routine things, you know, the patrol, the police visibility ends up being considerably less. And so, that obviously has a negative impact on our community.

NK: What have officers who are there been telling you?

MZ: Well, we've heard very clearly that they are very busy. I mean, there is plenty for them to do. And when you have fewer officers on the ground, that means that they have to pick up the slack. That means a lot of overtime. It means you're having to juggle a lot of different things. And so, it definitely adds to the stress level.

NK: In the months ahead, if things don't get up to the complement of, of RCMP officers that you, that you're allotted, that you need, what do you worry most about?

MZ: Well, I worry about things, you know, crime increasing. And the fact is, is that dealing with things such as traffic and the routine patrol, yes, it sounds minor when you first hear it. But that police visibility is an important deterrence factor that, you know, a lot of people who commit crimes, who commit the more serious crimes, will typically start with the, with the less serious crimes or the nonviolent crimes. And so, when you're not able to proactively deal with those things, you're not able to address those, it makes it worse. It makes it worse for the city in the long run. And so, obviously, we want to make sure that all crimes, whether it's at the most, you know, the serious violent nature or whether it's a relatively minor traffic offence are dealt with. And just on the issue of traffic, I mean, if you, when you have racing on a main street, that's a safety concern. I mean, it sounds minor until someone gets hit and killed. And, unfortunately, over the years, we've had, you know, people that, you know, come into our city from elsewhere, and they think that they can race up and down our main street. And we largely had cracked down on that when we were able to add that extra officer. But when we don't have that patrol happening as often, then the problem resurfaces. And so, we want to be proactive rather than simply being reactive.

NK: When we talk about the why, why is this happening right now? There are a couple of things at play, and I wonder what, just broadly speaking, this says to you, Deputy Mayor, this shortage, not just in Steinbach, of course, but what does this say about RCMP recruitment overall to you?

MZ: Well, it tells us that there's a, there's a nationwide problem here. That, clearly, the RCMP as a whole needs to have more officers because our city is not unique in this. There are many other municipalities in Manitoba that also have RCMP contracts. And the federal government needs to get a handle on this. It needs to ensure that if we're going to have RCMP providing community policing, we need to make sure that we have enough officers to fill those vacancies.

NK: One of the other things that has been discussed, certainly, Assistant Commissioner Rhonda Blackmore has said that as part of their recruitment, they've changed their policy that, that, in the past, would determine where officers were sent. Now, recruits or RCMP cadets can choose where they are placed. What does that say to you about why cadets are not keen to come to Steinbach and communities like that?

MZ: One of the best ways to have people from your province in your community working there is, is to recruit people that are from there. And so, it tells me that there needs to be a more concerted effort that if we're, if there aren't as many officers that are choosing Manitoba as their first choice, then there needs to be a concerted effort to recruit more cadets from Manitoba. Because when you're recruiting people from a province, and particularly from a city, they're far more likely to want to come back to that province and that city. So, obviously, someone who grows up in a different part of the country maybe less likely to want to come here.

NK: And have you had conversations with, with higher levels at the RCMP, high level officials, about perhaps going back to the old policy?

MZ: Well, we haven't had that conversation specifically. And, again, I mean, these are decisions that are made at a much higher level. I mean, these are decisions made at a national level. And so, we, obviously, will provide input as a municipality. But we are also realistic in that we recognize that it's unlikely that there's going to be a sudden change in federal policy that affects the whole country based on feedback from one city.

NK: I know that RCMP have, have asked members and reservists to sign up for two-week stints or secondments in the two Prairie provinces this spring to try to make up for this shortfall. How does that sit with you? Is that something that would actually make a difference?

MZ: It's hard to say. It may help on a short-term basis. And the area in which I think it could have the potential to help is soft vacancies, where you have a member that's a way for, let's say, a medical leave for a month and that sort of thing. And those, obviously, are typically not filled. We just have to simply deal with the gap during that time. And so, if you have officers that are coming in on a short-term basis to replace people that are away on a short-term leave, that could potentially be helpful. However, if this new plan is simply as a, as an ongoing stopgap. And that instead of having officers come on a permanent basis or a long-term basis, they're just coming for two weeks at a time, then I don't think that that's terribly helpful.

NK: But you don't want to see just a rotating list of people doing these two-week stints.

MZ: No, I, no. I mean, obviously, we know that RCMP officers do get transferred periodically, but we want them to be able to stay long enough that they form some connections and relationships within the city. And so, I mean, if all we're having is, is having temporary replacements for two weeks at a time, and that takes the place of our longer-term officers, that is not something that I want to see at all.

NK: Deputy Mayor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MZ: Well, thank you.

CH: Michael Zwaagstra is the deputy mayor of Steinbach, Manitoba. And that's where we reached him.

[‘90s toy store music]

NL Marathoner

CH: Now, I'm going to try to convince you to do something incredibly difficult, and punishing, and excruciatingly painful, but truly rewarding. Probably, I don't know: I've never completed an ultra-marathon, because I've never started an ultra-marathon. But hear me out. Now, ultra-marathons are grueling, multi-day races, often across more than 100 kilometres of hilly, tricky terrain. The kind of ordeal that causes runners to hallucinate from exhaustion. You might lose a toenail or two. But in the end, it will be over! Now, it's possible that you're still not convinced, so let me hand it over to Samantha Harper. She's a family physician from Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador who recently returned from completing an ultra-marathon on Antarctica, which included some close encounters with local inhabitants.

SOUNDCLIP

SAMANTHA HARPER: Lots of penguins. And, John, I don't know if you've ever seen penguins in real life, but they're kind of smelly, yeah. They're very cute, but they smell a little bit. But, yeah, there, there were penguins everywhere. And, you know, again, with the ethos of sort of responsible tourism, we were intended to kind of stay away, don't, you know, don't go play with them and that kind of thing. Don't disrupt them. But they're pretty curious, and they would wander over to us running on the course, you know, whether we tried to avoid them or not. Yeah, it was great. Penguins are adorable.

JOHN GAUDI: How would you describe the terrain you're, you're traversing here?

SH: Very hilly, very hilly. There are, again, rugged mountains and that kind of thing. There was very few areas that were actually flat, which, hey, this is a challenge. That's okay. We didn't, we didn't sign up for a beach vacation.

JG: Samantha, you've got to tell me about running a stage on Danco Island.

SH: Danco Island is one of the many island stops that we had. So, we did, do run one stage on actual mainland Antarctica. But there are so many islands around Antarctica that the boat also stopped on a few islands for the race. This one isn't a particularly scenic part of Antarctica. It's near a channel called the Errera Channel. It's very beautiful, lots of icebergs and whales migrating. And so, like many the other days, we had a looped chorus on, on Danco Island, uphills, downhills, switchbacks, running in circles. But the weather was just so gorgeous that day. And, John, people say, like when you're at the dentist or something, just, just close your eyes and think of, like, a beach somewhere or something. And I've always thought, you know, I can't think of a beach or anywhere nice that would make me want to feel relaxed. But I tell you, that day, and I think the photos will back me up on this, it was just so serene, so surreal. There was penguins running around. There was whales frolicking below in the bay. There were icebergs drifting by. We were running up hillsides. It was beautiful. And I think, you know, next time I have to close my eyes and think of someplace that's the best ever, that would be Danco Island. Again, it's, it had all of the things. It was. It was a pretty surreal day.

JG: And just what was completing the last stage of the Antarctica, the last desert ultramarathon, like?

SH: It was a rough day. [chuckling] I would love to tell you that, oh, it was the bird sang and it was the most beautiful day ever. [chuckling] But it was a slog. It was so windy and, you know, everything was sore, you know, after five days of being out slogging through the snow. Because, again, there's no trails here. We're breaking trail. Yeah, it was a rough day. But you know what? The last lap, I knew it was going to be the last lap. And as I approached the finish, I ran into a couple other competitors that I'd known from other races and stuff like that, and we all finished together. So, it ended on a high note, but it was, wasn't the best day. [laughing] But that's it. You have good days on the trail and bad days on the trail. But as well that ends well.

JG: Euphoria?

SH: Relief. [both laugh].

JG: Okay.

SH: Relief of being over. [laughing] I mean, maybe euphoria. But also, I think, just looking forward to getting a nice hot shower. [laughing] And getting the bling, of course, these awesome medals, you know? [medals clank] But I think that, like, the the bigger thought is if you have something like this that just seems a little bit crazy that you're kind of thinking about, and you're thinking, no, I probably couldn't do that, you know? Like, you'd be surprised. I am an average Joe or Jane who has interesting hobbies and, you know, just try it out, you know? There's no time like the present. Today is the youngest you ever going to be. So, So, why not give it a go, and, and, you know, nothing is beyond reach.

CH: Ultra-Marathoner and Family Physician Samantha Harper speaking to John Gaudi on Labrador Morning.

[ambient]

Fatherless Shark

Guest: Greg Barrick

CH: A baby swell shark named Yoko is a star at The Shreveport Aquarium in Louisiana. Partly because she's the mother of all aquatic enigmas: Yoko was born in a tank with only female inhabitants -- a tank that hasn't had a male shark in it for over three years. Greg Barrick is the curator of live exhibits at the Shreveport Aquarium. That's where we reached him.

NK: Greg, how is Yoko doing?

GREG BARRICK: She's doing great. And I do also want to say that I'm using that as a space filler. We need about a month to really determine gender, but it feels less genuine to call it an it, so. [both laugh]

NK: I hear you. Yeah.

GB: Yeah. So, I'm saying she, for now, but that might change.

NK: Understood. And we should say, I wanted to ask you about the name Yoko. I know it's. It's short Onyoko. It's a Chumash words, right? Can you tell our listeners how you came to that name?

GB: I'm going to be very honest. In the aquarium industry, the number of Bonnie and Clydes that I've worked with, [NK laughs] the stereotype, and then some, some animals, I know one of my past coworkers named an eel Crunchwrap Supreme. I am very much that if we're going to name an animal, it needs to be meaningful. I was just thinking about it. I was inspired. I'm like, I want to do it in another language. I'm like, I want it to be meaningful, though. So, I researched where this species was native to; native to the California coastline, all the way down to Peru, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly, along the Pacific coastline. So, I was like, well, let me find a Native American tribe. But I ended up just settling with we're just going to shark. I pulled up a few instances from different Native American tribes, and I always try to go for a name that also can be shortened to something that's kid-friendly.

NK: It's great that you put that, that level of thought into it. [GB chuckles] And, of course, a lot of people are putting thought into the how of all of this. There are a couple of theories. One of them is a form of asexual reproduction. What leads you to believe that that could be what happened here? How common is that in sharks?

GB: I can think of five instances with zebra sharks that's occurred in human care. Swell sharks specifically, it is not particularly common. It has been observed before, but literally, we can probably count, the number is probably below 10. I will say that's an estimate on my part, but that is a very reasonable estimate of the number of times that it's actually happened in human care. So, it is quite rare. Parthenogenesis is whenever there's no viable mate, or at least it's theorized, that they're like, okay, well, we need to pass, like, the whole point of life in the animal kingdom most of the time is reproduction, passing on the genetics. That's the entire point of life in most concepts. So, they still need to do that. So, unfortunately, there's no genetic shuffling, which does mean that if a baby is from parthenogenesis, they are genetically identical to the female. And it can cause some recessive traits that can cause some health problems to come into play that might have been stopped had there been a male involved that introduced some dominant genes.

NK: So, you'll be monitoring, you'll be monitoring Yoko for, for all of that.

GB: Yes. Yes. So, that is definitely something that we might see. She could be perfectly fine one day, and then the next day, we start seeing some genes start to express themselves in different ways, which would be a definite possibility, and something that we're definitely focusing on.

NK: The other theory that you have is delayed fertilization. Tell our listeners how that would work.

GB: It's not common either. However, basically, a shark can kind of determine when there's a good time to have babies. And even though there might have been copulation at one point in time, it's not necessarily going to immediately fertilize. Just biologically, through different processes, they can actually control when they actually fertilize that egg. It's been recorded up to, I forget the species, but up to 45 months in some species. So, it can last for quite a while. And this would be something that wasn't actually planned on to be discussed. But me and my general manager found this out yesterday. We contacted the previous facility, who hadn't housed them with males either all the way up to 2014. So, these animals have actually not been with a male, this is a revision from the original press release, for 10 years. So, if it is delayed fertilization, it's the first of its kind for that length. But it does heavily imply parthenogenesis. I still want heavy evidence to really say it for sure.

NK: And you're getting that.

GB: This. That's a, that's a new development for you guys, yeah.

NK: Oh! [chuckle] Well, thank you for saving that for us. [GB chuckles] Genetic testing is needed, obviously, as you, as you've, as you've said. How long is that process before you can actually collect what you need?

GB: We have a science advisor on staff who's kind of telling me a bit more because, I mean, I know the animals, but the karyotyping process and all that, he's an adjunct professor at a nearby university, and he's able to tell me a bit more of what's required. And from our discussion, they need a decent amount of blood. And at her size, it's not suitable to remove that amount. So, we probably need to wait two, three months until she's a bit larger, until we can do the proper blood draw. And then, we'll need to do a blood draw on both of the females that we have since we did not observe the mother laying egg. We don't actually know which female it came from. So, we will blood-draw both of them, and then we'll send it off to a nearby university, LSUS, to actually karyotype it and actually figure out is this genetically identical to either of the females? And if so, it's parthenogenesis and it's that mom. Or is this different from both the females? And if so, then it's delayed fertilization and there was a father involved. So, that's kind of the, going to solve it all for us.

NK: Many mysteries, many mysteries to solve. So, it's an exciting time for your facility.

GB: Yes, definitely.

NK: Well, what about the public? When do they get to see Yoko in person?

GB: So, we're still working on some plans for that. We don't have anything set in stone yet. We're considering the possibility of putting a webcam in her tank that goes down to a TV screen that we'll put right next to the mother's tank. Unfortunate, her size, and with the chance of predation from different fish and stuff, I just can't put her at that size down there with the mothers or anything like that. For the time being, she will remain in our quarantine area and her safe water table area where we're able to closely observe her.

NK: Greg, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

GB: Yeah, Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Greg Barrick is the curator of live exhibits at the Shreveport Aquarium. He's in Shreveport, Louisiana.

[hip-hop]

Quebec Mosque Attack Anniversary

CH: Eight years ago today, on Jan. 29, 2017, a man walked into the Islamic Cultural Centre of Quebec City, where evening prayers had just ended, and started to shoot -- killing six people and wounded 19 others. Today, there were events across the country marking the anniversary, and paying tribute to the dead. Salam El-Mousawi's brother was shot during the attack, and left paralyzed. Salam El-Mousawi spoke to the CBC today.

SOUNDCLIP

SALAM EL-MOUSAWI: Six widows and 17 fatherless children were left to mourn. Nineteen others were injured. Five seriously, including my brother, who was left permanently paralysed. Eight years ago, what happened was I got a call from the police researcher trying to pass a message of assurances that everything is under control, so that I can pass to our congregation and to the rest of the community. We believe it's ignorance and distorted information of the assailant about Muslims, which led him to fear, fear led to hatred, and hatred led him to commit this violent terrorist attack.

SEAN HENRY: Tell us. Go ahead.

SEM: Yes, sorry. I mean, this, this, like, made us as activists come together and sit and brainstorm to understand what happened. And, in light of this tragedy, we came up with Muslim Awareness Week initiative.

SH: Right. Tell us a little bit more about how that's been working over the last few years.

SEM: It's been a difficult situation in the Middle East. And what's happening in Gaza and Palestine wasn't easy to bring awareness, especially with all the killings happening and the people are grieving. What we promote to have a dialog with the other with respect. So, with dialog, we try to spread awareness about what's happening because, as you know, it's, and as I mentioned, always the, the unknown brings some fear. And the fear will bring the hate. And the hate will bring unfortunate actions. So, we are always open, we extend our hands to the other.

CH: Salam El-Mousawi speaking to Sean Henry, host of Daybreak in Montreal, on the anniversary of the Quebec City mosque shooting.

[ambient]

Part 3: Looted Museum Objects, Photogenic Shrew

FTR: Kennedy Confirmation

CH: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. says he supports vaccines. And since he's the nominee to be the U.S. secretary of health, it seems like that should be a given. But it's really not. Today, at his confirmation hearing, President Donald Trump's controversial pick was grilled by senators about his views on abortion -- which he now says he does not support -- and vaccines -- which he now says he does support. And it gets even more confusing. Here's Senator Bernie Sanders.

SOUNDCLIP

BERNIE SANDERS: I think the gist of what you were trying to say today is you're really pro-vaccine. You want to ask questions. You have started a group called the Children's Health Defense. You're the originator. Right now, as I understand it, on their website, they are selling what's called onesies. These are little things, clothing for babies. One of them is titled "Unvaxxed. Unafraid". Next one, and they're sold for 26 bucks a piece, by the way, next one is, "No Vaxx. No problem". Now, you're coming before this committee, and you say you're pro-vaccine, just want to ask some questions. And yet, your organization is making money selling a child's product to parents for 26 bucks which has fundamental doubt on, on the usefulness of vaccines. Can you tell us now that you will, now that you are pro-vaccine, that you're going to have your organization take these products off the market?

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Senator, I have no power over that organization. I'm not a part of it. I resigned from the board of leadership.

BS: That was just a few months ago. You founded that. You certainly have power. You can make that happen. Are you supportive of this?

RFKJ: I've had nothing to do with leadership.

BS: Are you supportive of these onesies?

RFKJ: I'm supportive of vaccines.

BS: Are you supportive of these, this clothing, [RFKJ chuckles] which is militantly anti-vaccine?

RFKJ: I am supportive of vaccines. I want good science. And I want to protect --

BS: But you will not tell the organization you founded not to continue selling that product. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [RFKJ chuckles]

CH: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. being questioned by Senator Bernie Sanders at his confirmation hearing for U.S. secretary of health.

[lounge jazz]

Intl Humanitarian Law

CH: International humanitarian law is usually presumed to be about protecting people on the receiving end of aggression. But the head of the International Committee of the Red Cross said it's about protecting aggressors too. Speaking at the United Nations general assembly in New York, Mirjana Spoljaric Egger warned delegates that respect for international humanitarian law -- or IHL -- is "in crisis." And she says that crisis puts everyone in danger. She called on UN member states to join an initiative launched by Brazil, China, France, Jordan, Kazakhstan, and South Africa to galvanise support for IHL. And she called on her own recent experiences of visiting places afflicted by war for evidence of why that initiative is needed.

SOUNDCLIP

MIRJANA SPOLJARIC EGGER: This is not an abstract issue. It is one that impacts millions of lives every day. And one that costs hundreds of billions of dollars to recover from. This month, I visited Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. I saw so much suffering, so much rubble, and so much devastation. What is important in the face of this misery is not who wins or loses. What is important is that a human life is a human life, and that every human being deserves to live in safety and dignity. I met people whose lives are irrevocably changed because their rights under international humanitarian law were disregarded. The same could be said for millions of other civilians living through armed conflicts in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ukraine, Sudan, Myanmar, and elsewhere. Mr. President, you opened the 79th session of the General Assembly under the name "Unity in Diversity". This is precisely what the Geneva Conventions represent -- a universal body of international law ratified by every state, striving to protect a minimum of shared humanity. The core principles of international humanitarian law transcend national constitutions, borders, religions, and cultures. Yet, what we see is a seemingly limitless tolerance for death, destruction, and dehumanization. If you continue this path, where will it lead us? We are already seeing wars without limits, without regard for human dignity. And we are seeing deepening divisions, rendering the struggle for peace harder than it should be. IHL is not meant to prevent wars, but it is to contain excessive deployment of force. Once unleashed, unrestrained violence breeds even greater global security risks where and when you least expect. To put it simply, it is in all state's interest to uphold international humanitarian law, to protect the security of their own people.

CH: ICRC president Mirjana Spoljaric Egger, speaking to the UN General Assembly.

[indie rock]

Looted Museum Objects

Guest: Natasha Reichle

CH: The Asian Art Museum in San Francisco is parting with some of its collection. And it's opening up about how it got those objects in the first place. Last year, the museum got a letter from the government of Thailand, requesting the return of four ancient bronze statues. The statues, which depict Buddhist spiritual figures, were stolen from the ruins of a temple decades ago. And the request for repatriation is the latest case of a museum reckoning with some of the dark truths behind its collection. The museum plans to return the artefacts in the coming months. But before then, they're the focus of an exhibit about how they got to the museum -- called Moving Objects: Learning from Local and Global Communities. Natasha Reichle is an associate curator at the Asian Art Museum. We reached her in San Francisco.

NK: Natasha, if you could help our listeners visualize what they'll see and experience when they come to see the Moving Objects exhibit.

NATASHA REICHLE: It's a, actually, very small exhibition, a single room, which highlights four bronze sculptures that come from northeastern Thailand. They range in size from about seven inches, to, I think, the tallest ones are over two feet tall. And remarkably beautiful images of Buddhist deities, Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, and surrounding that is didactic texts talking about the history of these objects, and how they got to the museum, and their journey soon back to Thailand.

NK: What do you feel when you're standing in that room?

NR: I feel a mixture of things. I'm always very taken in by the workmanship, and the fact that these artists were able to produce in this very early date. They date from the seventh to the ninth century. So, it's really spectacular works of art. And I'm also sort of happy that they're going to be going back to the people who are descendants of the people who made them.

NK: You were already planning an exhibit on provenance, as I understand it, to go on display at your museum. Then that request from Thailand came to you. How did that shift your plans?

NR: The plans were shifted for various reasons. The director of education, who is in charge of the exhibition on provenance left the museum. And so, we were rethinking it already. But then this provided an opportunity to talk really specifically and deeply about a set of objects that were all connected and tell one story, versus before we were able to tell a whole series of stories of different objects.

NK: How long did it take you to figure out where these statues came from?

NR: We've known for years about this group of statues. But we learned more about the history of their looting through the recent information that came out about Douglas Latchford, the British dealer and smuggler who was based in Thailand. And also, through, definitely through, the research and advocacy of members of the Thai community, who have for years been advocating for the return of these objects.

NK: And what was happening when they were looted.

NR: So, because it was looting, [chuckling] and because there was no scientific excavation of the site itself, there's still a lot of mystery. I visited the site earlier this year, and there's very little that remains besides part of a brick temple that's, you know, standing, barely standing. But you can see throughout the whole area of the temple that for, for years, it's been dug up for people, you know, searching for more objects. Douglas Latchford was involved in this looting in the early 1960s. The Thai community has done a lot of research into this, and interviewing members of the community who lived in this area, who still remember him visiting, and the smugglers themselves who have talked about where they found things and the types of objects they found.

NK: Given the suspicions about these pieces, and that management at the museum knew, why do you think these items were not given back earlier?

NR: I think museums in the West in general have just held on to things. And I think it's not until the last 10 years, and largely based on the advocacy of communities in other parts of the world, that there's been a, hopefully, a sea change in thinking about objects. I also think that there's been a change in attitudes within museums, where for a long time, the UNESCO's convention, which set the date of 1970 of sort of the date if you had an object that came out of its country of origin before 1970, you didn't really look into its provenance that deeply. Well, now, there's much more emphasis on considering the laws in place in the countries of origin of these objects.

NK: We've had a lot of conversations on this program about that shift and what it means to the other countries, the other communities, to have these items returned. It can be very moving for, for those involved. I'm curious about the decision to, to have this exhibit first as opposed to just returning them. Why do that?

NR: Well, all the objects in our museum belong to the city of San Francisco. They don't belong to the museum itself. Because of that, there's sort of a legal process they have to go through in order to be deaccessioned, which involves two votes, which are six months apart. And so, this six-month period was an opportunity for us to talk about the whole process and to be transparent about how these came into the museum and attitudes at that time. And then, the process of them being repatriated.

NK: And an acknowledgment as well.

NR: Yes.

NK: Yeah.

NR: Yes.

NK: What, you talked about, Natasha, how you feel standing in that room. What do you hope visitors will, will feel and take away from their experience?

NR: Well, we do have, like, a feedback wall and a feedback box where we've gotten a lot of responses, almost all of them positive and hopeful. We've had this amazing privilege of having these objects in San Francisco for many, many years. And just, I think, I would hope that they would rejoice in the opportunity of the people of Thailand to enjoy them in the future.

NK: Natasha, thank you for your time.

NR: Thank you.

CH: Natasha Reichle is a curator of Southeast Asian Art at the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco. And that's where we reached her.

[Spanish guitar]

German Chanellor Olaf Scholz On Musk

CH: On one hand, it's not surprising that German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is unimpressed with Elon Musk. After all, Mr. Musk is very publicly endorsing Mr. Scholz's political opponents in Germany's upcoming federal election. But the chancellor says this is about far more than who wins that vote. It's about what the far-right AfD party stands for. And it's about the fact that Mr. Musk's comments happened to coincide with International Holocaust Remembrance Day. At an event this weekend, the Tesla CEO alluded to Germany's Nazi past, saying, quote, "children should not be guilty of the sins of their parents, let alone their great-grandparents." Unquote. Speaking to reporters yesterday, Olaf Scholz responded.

SOUNDCLIP

OLAF SCHOLZ: I disagree completely with Elon Musk and what he's doing. So, as a social democrat, I'm used to rich media entrepreneur that intervene in politics in Germany. They started in the 19th century, did that during the Weimar Republic, and also in the Federal Republic of Germany. It's history. So, that's not new. If you look at the print press in Germany, you will see that there are many billionaires that also intervene in politics. That's not new. What is new is that he is intervening in favour of right-wing politicians all over Europe. And this is really disgusting. And it is not good for the democratic development in all the European Union. This is the week where we are remembering the freeing of the last people in the concentration camp of Auschwitz. And I'm absolutely clear there is a responsibility of Germany that will continue to be a responsibility about the things that have been done by Germans in the past. And this is also true for all these people that have no relationship to the past in Germany because they are migrants. This is also true to those who have parents and grandparents that lived in Germany for centuries. So, my view is that Germany has a good reason to take the responsibility that comes from the bad past. We are very happy about the United States that freed our country and helped us to become a democracy again. And this is why I am so angry about Elon Musk intervening for the far-right. And Elon Musk also not acting adequate for this killing of so many Jews and other people in Europe done by Germans in the past. This is the historic responsibility we will continue to take in the future as well.

CH: German Chanellor Olaf Scholz, speaking to reporters yesterday.

[Arabic strings]

Photogenic Shrew

Guests: Prakrit Jain, Harper Forbes

CH: There are creatures in this world we have yet to discover. Ghostly weirdoes tiptoeing around on the bottom of the ocean; amphibious recluses that lurk in the least accessible depths of the rainforest. But the chance of discovering these elusive critters becomes a lot greater if you put two young undergrad students on the case. In 2022, we spoke with Prakrit Jain -- after he and Harper Forbes identified not one but two new species of scorpion. Recently, alongside wildlife photographer Vishal Subramanyan, they set -- and then met -- a new goal: snapping the first photographs of the Mount Lyell shrew -- the only known mammal species in California to have avoided cameras to that point. Prakrit Jain is a third-year biology student at the University of California Berkeley, and Harper Forbes is a third-year biology undergrad at the University of Arizona. We reached them in Berkeley, California, and Tucson, Arizona, respectively.

NK: Harper, help our listeners paint a picture in their minds, if they haven't seen the photographs yet, of the shrew. What does it look like?

HARPER FORBES: Yeah, so imagine a mouse, but a little bit smaller, with a pointy nose and very tiny eyes, and perhaps legs that are a little more thin and small.

NK: It's smaller than a mouse.

HF: Well, there's many species of mice, but this would be quite a bit smaller than your average, your average mouse, yeah.

NK: Okay. The one most, the kind of mouse most people are, are used to, to visualizing, or seeing, or not seeing if they, if they prefer. So, Prakrit, you and Harper were able to do something that no one has been able to do, to, to photograph these shrews. Was it difficult?

PRAKRIT JAIN: Certainly, it was a challenge. There was a few aspects that made it quite difficult, including the cold weather and the amount of work to set so many traps. But, overall, it, it was a bit easier than we expected. We managed to find more of the shrews than we thought we were going to.

NK: And, Harper, why, why is it that, that no one else has done it until now?

HF: It seems that other people who are studying small mammals, mainly rodents and the group that shrews belong to, do general studies on small mammals in a particular area. And you have to have a bit of a focus on shrews specifically if you want to catch them alive. They have a high metabolism, and you have to check traps really often -- like every two hours -- to see them alive. And so, any given person who's trying to do a survey of an area doesn't have the wherewithal to be able to catch shrews alive on a constant basis. It's a little bit tricky.

NK: Why were you particularly interested in this species?

PJ: Well, both Vishal and I are photographers. And one of the things that we find very interesting is to take pictures of species that are poorly recorded. And we found it really quite amazing that there was a species of mammals in a place as well-studied as California that had never been photographed before. We thought it would be a wonderful story, an excellent research opportunity, and a great, a great moment to let this unique and very overlooked animal get its time in the spotlight.

NK: So, Harper, in the end, how, how did you guys catch the shrews?

HF: Yeah, we were pitfalling. We got 150 pitfalls in the ground.

NK: Well, describe what that means.

HF: Yeah. So, they're really just plastic cups. And so, we dug holes in the ground, small holes, put the cups in the ground, leveled the ground around them, put a flag next to it, and then baited it with cat food and mealworms and that's it.

NK: How many did you catch?

HF: We caught around 16 shrews. Is that right, Prakrit?

PJ: I believe we got 18 shrews, of which we were able to photograph 14.

NK: What happened to the other four? They got away?

PJ: They ran away.

NK: [laughing] They're tricky. They're tricky to photograph a little bit. They're kind of cute, I have to say. It's not usually my area of love when we're talking about creatures, but they're pretty cute. Maybe it's your photographs.

PJ: Yeah, they do have a pretty charming appearance, I think, with their, with their long nose and their really small bodies.

NK: They are charming. That's a perfect, perfect word. So, then there's the, there was the step of confirming that, that it was, in fact, the Mount Lyell shrew. Harper, when you got that confirmation from the genetic tests, how did that feel? Did you, were you expecting it, or were you a little bit worried?

HF: I was expecting for sure that at least one of our shrews was a Mount Lyell shrew. I would have been quite surprised if one of them wasn't, actually. But the shrew that we initially had some expectation of being the Mount Lyell shrew wasn't actually the right species. So, I was a little bit disappointed because for, between Vishal and I, we had to take a lot of videos of the shrews. And we had sort of misestimated which shrew to give the most attention to in the field. But we made do in the end.

NK: Did anything as you, as you recorded those videos and took the photographs, did anything about them surprise you as you observed them and documented them?

HF: Yeah. Really cool behaviour in not just the species, but I didn't know that shrews did this. Their venom has a paralytic effect that can paralyze their prey. They are venomous.

NK: Less cute than initially discussed. Okay. [chuckling]

HF: Yeah. The, the shrews were taking some of the insects we were giving them and stashing them in like a hiding spot, and then returning to them later to finish their food.

NK: And, Prakrit, what about you? Anything surprise you?

PJ: Yeah. I was also quite fascinated by their behaviours. Another thing that I found surprising was that after a couple of nights, we started catching the same individuals that we had caught previously again and again. And once we'd got the same individuals a few times, they became rather tame. And they would, they would be entirely okay with you picking them up.

NK: Awe. They wanted to be found after a while.

PJ: I think they realized they were going to get fed if they photographed.

NK: [laughing] Yeah, I think you're, I think you're right.

HF: Maybe.

NK: Folks might remember, Prakrit, you were back on our, you were on our show back in 2022, again for work that you and Harper were doing. You had discovered a new species of scorpion. And that was just at the beginning of your mission to document every species of arachnid in California, if I remember correctly. How is that going? Are you close?

PJ: Well, I'm close for some groups, less close for others. As far as scorpions go, I only have a couple left that I haven't documented so far. But for some other arachnid groups, there's a lot of diversity. You know, for instance, in spiders. And trying to document many of them is going to be a challenge.

NK: Harper, the two of you met back in high school, if I, if I recall correctly. Can you imagine both of you doing this, you know, for decades to come?

HF: Yeah, I think so.

NK: Is there one for both of you that is the, the ultimate, you know, the bucket list, at the top of that bucket list, to identify.

PJ: I don't know if this is something that would be easy to narrow down.

NK: Yeah.

PJ: I don't know if you have one, Harper?

HF: I've never been able to pick favourites, like ever.

NK: [laughing] Well, just, you'll just stay busy as you have been. And maybe we'll speak again. Prakrit, Harper, a pleasure. Thank you.

HF: Thank you so much for having us.

PJ: Thank you.

CH: Prakrit Jain is a third-year biology student at the University of California Berkeley. Harper Forbes is a third-year biology undergrad at the University of Arizona. We reached them in Berkeley, California, and Tucson, Arizona, respectively.

The AIH Transcript for January 29, 2025

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