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The AIH transcript for January 15, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Hard fought piece. After months of stop and start talks, negotiators for Israel and Hamas agree to a multiphase cease fire agreement. That could mean a lasting truce if it holds.

CH: Cause for cautious celebration. We'll hear from a Palestinian humanitarian worker in Gaza, and the brother of an Israeli hostage still being held by Hamas, about the hope that comes with today's announcement and the questions that remain.

NK: Taking the bully by the horns. Canada's prime minister and premiers meet to discuss the economic threat the U.S. president-elect is posing, and emerge with a rare sense of consensus.

CH: Crash course. An Alberta truck driver is honored for his heroic efforts to save a fellow trucker in a situation that started out nerve-wracking and became life-threatening.

NK: Remaking the pitch. After last year's disastrous drone spying scandal, Canada Soccer hires a new head coach for the women's team. And Casey Stoney says she's not one to move the goalposts.

CH: And...the fruit of all evil. A British pizzeria shows its reluctance to put pineapple on pies by charging the equivalent of $175 Canadian to anyone who dares to order it. And we are pine-appalled. [NK chuckles].

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that yearns for the days of Hawaiian and roses.

Part 1: Gaza Ceasefire: Resident, Gaza Ceasefire: Hostages, New Canadian Soccer Coach

Gaza Ceasefire: Resident

Guest: Amjad Shawa

CH: After fifteen-and-a-half impossibly long months, Israel and Hamas have agreed to a ceasefire. Qatari Prime Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani made the announcement in Doha, earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

MOHAMMED BIN ABDULRAHMAN AL THANI: The phase One of the agreement will go on for 42 days, and it will include a ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli forces to the east away from populated areas. Israeli forces will then be positioned along the Gaza border, and which will allow for the swap of prisoners as well as the swap of remains and the return of the displaced people to their residences. This will also facilitate the travel of a wounded and sick people in order to receive treatment. Phase One also includes an increased flow of relief and humanitarian aid to all parts of the Gaza Strip, as well as the rehabilitation of hospitals, health centers, bakeries, and allowing the entry of fuel and civil defense equipment, as well as basic necessities for displaced people who have lost their houses as a result of the war.

CH: Qatar's prime minister, announcing details of a three-phase ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas. Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet is set to vote on the deal tomorrow. Phase One will see 33 Israeli hostages released by Hamas, and dozens of Palestinian detainees freed in exchange for each hostage. Later stages of the agreement involve the release of all remaining hostages, the complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza, and eventually, the reconstruction of the besieged territory. It's a long and very uncertain road, but that didn't stop people in Gaza from celebrating the news today. Amjad Shawa is the director of the Palestinian NGO Network. We reached him in Deir al Balah, 13 months after his family was first displaced from their home in Gaza City.

NK: Amjad, how did you and your family learn the news of the ceasefire?

AMJAD SHAWA: We have no television, you know? That this is apartment with just some mattresses and just have our mobiles and we have a line of Internet. This is that we had, we have the radios that everyone is all but as his own channel to get the news. And we have to share it with each others. So, this is the case. And sometimes, some colleagues or friends are phoning or sending messages to share this news about the ceasefire.

NK: What kind of messages, Amjad, are your friends and colleagues sending you?

AS: First. [a distortion]

NK: What was that noise in the background?

AS: People are launch fireworks and things outside. They are celebrating outside. Like, there's big demonstrations in the streets now. People are celebrating the ceasefire. And myself, I am celebrate the ending this, this war. And it's mixed feelings. I cannot resist happiness. After 13 months of displacement and pains that we had, and losing so many beloved ones, and the destruction that we had, and the daily suffering that we witness, the nightmares.

NK: Did you believe the news when it happened?

AS: I have to. I cannot imagine if this will not happen. It'd be really a catastrophe within the big catastrophe that we are living in. We lost so many of my friends, beloved ones, colleagues who were killed. I staying in the apartment that I came to earlier with my mother, with my brother, and their families, and with my wife and two daughters, and the sun.

NK: How are they all reacting to the news?

AS: Each one has, his own mobile and some on the balcony. You know, they're watching that the people who are celebrating outside, everybody's happy. The children, everyone is following up through the radio, through whatever we have to get some news about the declaration of the ceasefire. And we are pushing ourselves to believe at this time.

NK: What are the questions you have at this stage about the details? We're still waiting for a lot of those details to come out, to be worked out. What are you looking to learn at this stage?

AS: At this stage, just to stop this military operations in Gaza. And the second, which is very most important, to return to our homes about, I do not, I have not so much about news about my home. Since 70 to 80 per cent of Gaza and the north is destroyed. But what got destroyed or not, I want to be beside my home. The issue of displacement and the issue of humanitarian access. You know, one of the things that just 10 minutes ago, one of the cancer patients is in very critical situation. So, he was asking Rafah crossing with Egypt would be open. Tell me that.

NK: This is someone you know, Amjad, is that right?

AS: Yes. Yes, I know. He is from the Shawa family, from the same family of mine. There is another one who is a colleague of mine. He's a human rights defender in Deir al Balah. His home was airstriked. He lost his wife, the two daughters, the two sons, and is in very critical condition. So, this is a humanitarian catastrophe. We have to have an end for this.

NK: We're hearing that the agreement means more aid will, will start coming in again. But given what you've said, given what we've heard over the last months and months about how, how desperate the humanitarian situation is all across Gaza, how much of a difference do you think that aid coming in now can make?

AS: Well, I'm part of the, the humanitarian country team with the UN. What I do is that we have discussions for two or three days now about the preparation for this. And we wish that this will happen, that more aid would get there, and more food to be distributed widely to the people, and that mainly for the children who are suffering from the malnutrition, water to be there, more, more interventions and psychosocial support, which is very important that these children would pass through and back to the education and to the schools. They lost two years of their education. But we couldn't see real actions in order to stop these attacks on the Palestinian civilians, to protect, to protect our people, to protect our children, to get the Gaza back. So, [deep breath] it's, it's a lot of messages, but we're shouting in the desert.

NK: How would you, if you, if you had to put it into a few words, describe the last 15 months for you personally?

AS: It's unprecedented, unimaginable catastrophe situation personally that I passed through. I ever, never could imagine the worst nightmares to be, but to pass through these conditions that I'm in. No words to be described to help me to describe the situation me and my family passed through.

NK: And as you try to imagine going home, and what this cease fire will mean, what do you imagine or hope for, for the next 15 months.

AS: For the next 15 months, to quick Gaza construction and recovery, to get these children better conditions, to get back, to draw the smiles to their faces. My son Hamoud is 14 now. We passed two other children that ran out the first three days in Deir al Balah when he was out to buy something from one of the stores. There was the support and due to an airstrike, he was in the same building. We went out to check, and there was about 40 people were killed. And it was 30 minutes 'till we find them. So, it's not only him. It's almost all of the children. But I'm afraid. I'm afraid because it's not the first time that we have getting an agreement. So, I hope that this will be end and we will witness this Ceasefire. Everyone is, and myself, I have to believe that this time is different.

NK: Amjad, I hope this time is different. Thank you. Please stay safe.

AS: Thank you. Thank you.

CH: Amjad Shawa is the director of the Palestinian NGO Network. We reached him in Deir al Balah, in the central Gaza Strip, earlier today.

[cold into next story. No music]

Gaza Ceasefire: Hostages

Guest: Yotam Cohen

CH: As you heard, 33 Israeli hostages will be released during the first phase of the ceasefire agreement, which is expected to last for 42 days. But Nimrod Cohen doesn't appear to be on that list. The IDF soldier was just 19 years old when he was taken hostage by Hamas on October 7th, 2023. Yotam Cohen is his brother. We reached him in London, earlier today.

NK: Yotam, what did you say and do when news of this ceasefire came?

YOTAM COHEN: You know, actually, in Israel, it's not really technically official.

NK: Yeah.

YC: We got confirmation from the American administration. Confirmation from the government in Qatar. I think, you know, my brother will be released only in the second phase. So, this newly signed hostage deal does not include him right now. And we still have a long way to go until the other hostages are back.

NK: How does your family cope with those realities? There's a vote set for tomorrow in Israel. We can talk about the politics in a moment. But that reality, it doesn't sound like this feels real or final to you and your family in any way. Your brother's name is not on this Phase One list of hostages to be released, as you've said. So, how do you and your family cope with all of that?

YC: So, my family's together in Israel. I just spoke to them. But the same way I look at things, it's not real, and nothing is done and set in stone until the hostages are back. Even those who are, are meant to be released in, in the current phase, the first phase, until they're home, until they're back safely in their houses or until they get the proper burial they deserve, nothing is set. Both sides, both Hamas and Israel, can sabotage the hostage deal. And, for me, nothing has changed. We're going to continue to do the same things we do, the same interviews we did before, just like I'm doing right now, until every single hostage, all 98, are back home.

NK: Israel's Security Cabinet, as we've said, is, is among those that have to, to approve this, this ceasefire deal. How are you feeling about the chances that it will or will not go through? Are you concerned that the politics and wrangling there could derail it.

YC: No, this vote is a joke. Everything is, is, is preset. The Israeli government and our prime minister managed to stall and managed to avoid a hostage deal up until now, when Trump is about to enter his office. And he's, he has said to today's Israeli government and to Netanyahu, enough is enough. You are going to end the war. We're going to bring, bring, bring back the hostages. And that is the only reason that there is an upcoming deal right now. Neither Netanyahu, neither, either, and no minister in the Israeli government has the power to change that. When Trump tweeted today that the deal is done, we all took a sigh of relief because we know that the deal really is about to start.

NK: When we spoke last year, it was, it was Passover. And you talked about the shift in how a lot of families like yours were feeling in Israel. That, initially, the protests were peaceful and then there was anger. We're angry at the government, you said. We think they are failing us. They're doing something wrong. Does this time, this moment feel different?

YC: You know, just yesterday, one of our ministers has confirmed in his own voice that he and his party has to appeal the hostage deal for political reasons. He confessed to doing so and confessed to, confessed trying to do the same thing right now. So, everybody still had questions in their head or was still unsure whether or not this is some major complicated political game. He's got his answer. Everybody in Israel, every single Israeli citizen right now, knows the simple fact, the Israeli government, for narrow, absurd political reasons, has managed to kill 30 hostages in captivity and more than 100 soldiers who fell in battle inside Gaza. And the only reason that the people of Israel can cry in joy, not cry in pain, is because of the soon-to-be-president of the, of, of America. And those like us, who from almost Day One said that the government is deliberately torpedoing the hostage deal. We were right all along.

NK: You talked about the work that you and your family will keep doing as you have been doing, but what will you be looking out for? What are the questions you still have about making sure this gets to Phase Two and Phase Three?

YC: So, I think the spotlight is going to be on the Israeli government. Preventing them from pulling any dirty tricks to a torpedo the hostage and restart the war or the military campaign in Gaza. We're going to do the same things, the exact same things, but with a different message. Before, it was let's get a deal. And now, the message is let's keep the deal. And we're hoping that the international community, every word of leader, every Jewish and non-Jewish community around the world, will join forces in the same pressure and put up a united front saying that the deal that, hopefully, will start this Sunday. And this time, we're expecting to see hostages back in Israel, it will start, and will continue, and will last all the way to the end. Like, like I said before, until every single hostage is back in Israel.

NK: What do you know about your brother's condition?

YC: We know that he was taken alive. We know that hostages who came back, so in last November, we got multiple pieces of information from the IDF intelligence that he was at certain point alive in the tunnels. Nothing that recent. But we know that there is a lack of information coming back from the tunnels because of lack of reception, a way, ways to communicate. And we're still holding on to the hope that he is alive and he's well. We are hoping to see him in six weeks, which is the time when the second phase is about to start. And, hopefully, we'll manage to recover in some way.

NK: I hope so, too. Your mother said in another interview that one of the reasons why your family has been so vocal and so public is your hope that he might see one of the videos. If your brother could hear you right now, what would you want to say?

YC: I will say that we just made another huge leap towards you getting back home. We have fought before. We are fighting. And just so you know, we will never stop fighting. We will keep fighting with the same, the same force we have been until today. And, hopefully, hopefully, in less than two months, we'll see you back home.

NK: I hope so, too, Yotam. Thank you very much for your time. Please take care.

YC: Thank you.

CH: Yotam Cohen's brother Nimrod Cohen is among the Israeli hostages still being held by Hamas. We reached Yotam in London, England, earlier today.

[dissonant piano]

New Canadian Soccer Coach

Guest: Casey Stoney

CH: It's a new year. And Canada Soccer is really, really hoping for a fresh start. The organization has hired a new head coach for the women's national team -- a role that had not been permanently filled since Bev Priestman was fired after the Olympic drone-spying scandal. And now, Casey Stoney will take on that job. She's a decorated former player and captain of the British national team. She was the head coach of the Manchester United Women Football Club. And after that, the San Diego Wave, until she was fired last summer. Here's the general secretary and CEO of Canada Soccer, Kevin Blue, responding to a journalist's question on Monday.

SOUNDCLIP

KEVIN BLUE: As a federation, you know, as, as earnestly as we are trying to move forward, we are also being humble about learning from the past so as not to repeat the same mistakes again. And I'm not talking specifically about flying drones. I'm talking about some of the underlying structural issues that may have precipitated things that have caused difficulty broadly in the federation as, you know, over time. And this is, this sort of humble approach about understanding what happened, learning. from it, and then continuing a agenda of change and reform is something that the federation is committed to. And, hopefully, bringing in people obviously like Casey, who's a world-class coach with strong values and character is an example of what we're trying to do.

CH: We reached Casey Stoney, the new head coach of Team Canada, in Toronto.

NK: Casey Stoney, we heard a bit from Kevin Blue there. You said in that same media availability that, initially, you had some doubts as well. What were they?

CASEY STONEY: I think originally, they were more like personal doubts about whether I wanted to do international football because I've been in the club game for quite a long time. And the day-to-day of the club game and what I thrive. And that was one of the, some of the doubts. And then obviously, you know, previously, there had been some issues with the players. And I did a lot of extensive research. I probably interviewed them as much as they interviewed me. And the more I was involved in the process, the more I spent time with Kevin. And he's a key factor in this for me, and his values, and his integrity, and the way he wants to drive the organization forward. The more understood the culture of Canadian people. And obviously, having a really extensive call with Jesse Marsch to understand how he manages from club gaming to international. It was a no-brainer for me. It was such an opportunity to be able to come in and have an impact on the program and work with good people that it just excited me so much. So, I genuinely couldn't wait to get started.

NK: There is the widespread drone spying issue, of course. Radio-Canada, our colleagues there, investigated that quite a bit -- well beyond the Paris Games. There's been financial issues, accusations of a toxic culture, and secrecy as well. So, as you did your research, what did folks tell you? What did Canada Soccer tell you that changed your thinking and brought you to this point of excitement?

CS: To be honest, the big part was Kevin. Having spoke to, I know players that have played in, in the team for a while. And they, they were very adamant that he'd made such a big impact in the short time he'd been in role in terms of changing, A, like, equity and parity for the players, which is really, really important. And the culture and the standards that he wants to set. He wasn't happy with the standards that were set previously. I understand this driven coach. I am about integrity. My values are really important to me. And he was very, very aware of that. And I felt like we were aligned on a lot of things. So, you know, I know that, I thought the players unfairly got a little bit of the character question during the Olympics. That should never have happened because I thought what the players did during that difficult time was really admirable. And it shows the resilience of the togetherness of the group. So, for me, to be able to come in and lead that group is a privilege.

NK: In your conversations with the players, what did they tell you about the impact that all of that negative attention, the headlines internationally, had on them?

CS: I think it obviously had a massive impact on them as people. I think when your character and your integrity is being questioned, and you haven't had any control over the situation, that can be very difficult. But they very much just said they want to move forward. They want somebody who's going to lead with integrity. They want someone who's going to support them as players. They want someone who's going to lead the program and take them to the next level. And, you know, I feel like when I was involved in the process, I told them I'm a player's coach. I'm here for them. I'm here to support them. I'm here to guide them. I'm here to challenge them. I'm here to develop them. And I'm here to try and help the program be the best it possibly can be. I'm very much about winning, but I'm about winning the right way. Then, you can look back and be really, really proud of your accomplishments, knowing that you did things with integrity. You did things in a fair way. And I don't know any other way than that. And that's the way I'm going to lead this team.

NK: Your experiences as a, as a player, obviously, and as you've said, will inform what you do -- already informs what you do. What about your time as a coach in San Diego? What will you bring from that? What have you learned from that to apply here?

CS: Yeah, I learned a lot. I actually think the NWSL is as close-fitting to international football in terms of pace of play and the way it's played. So, that tactically, in the way that set the team up there, will help me in this role. And also, when I walked into the situation at Wave, a lot of those coaches had had negative experience of coaches. My first probably three months was about building trust. And about building a culture of psychological safety. And making sure the players were free to make mistakes. And players could be their best version of themselves and be in a high-performance environment and challenge each other. I think that learning is going to be key walking into this job.

NK: I think, I was surprised to learn, and maybe our listeners might be as well, that part of your salary is, is coming, it's being paid for by donations, philanthropic contributions. Does it concern you that the organization needs donations to pay your salary?

CS: No, I think that's part of the ongoing process that Kevin's going through now, is to make sure that the organization is funded and donations come in, sponsorship comes in. I know that he's working through a lot at the moment in terms of changing the finances of the organization. So, I don't see it as a negative.

NK: And who, who are those donations coming from?

CS: They haven't been made public to me yet.

NK: Yet. We'll see. We'll see. I have to ask, this is a time of celebration, certainly, for you. Are you tired of people telling you congratulations?

CS: I just want to get to work. I'm like, I can't wait for February, where I can actually touchpoint with players and we can start, start playing games.

NK: What do you think will, it will take as coach for, you know, for your team to go from being ranked sixth in the world to number one, you know, by 2027, and the World Cup?

CS: It takes a lot. It's going to take a hell of a lot of hard work, a lot of preparation. And in tournament football, you need luck as well. You need your best players fit and available. You need to, you need a good draw. You know, you need to be prepared as possible. We need to go in having the right amount of experience in terms of the caps on the, on the roster, making sure that we've got the right young players prepared and ready to go. And, you know, we're going to, we're going to do everything we can to try.

NK: Your family is still based in San Diego, as I understand it. Is part of this trip, apart from doing interviews like this one, house hunting? I mean, are you, are you all moving here? Are you going to be based here?

CS: There's no plans to move here in the immediate future. Just because we've had a lot of turmoil and change in the family in the last kind of six to eight months. So, just giving the children a bit of stability is important. But I will be in Canada frequently. And I'll be up here. I'll be watching the end of Brazil, doing coaching symposiums, working across the league and the pathways as much as I can, as well as getting out to Europe and watching the players play there, too.

NK: People feel like this is, I mean, they're hungry. Soccer fans certainly, and fans specifically of this team, are hungry for a turning point and hungry for glory, obviously, and the wins, as you are. How do you carry that excitement but also that weight?

CS: It's a privilege. I think when you're in positions like this, the pressure is a privilege. And I thrive in that. And I welcome it. I think the fan base here is incredible. And it's about taking them on the journey with us, and getting them excited about what we can possibly achieve in the future.

NK: Casey Stoney, a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you.

CS: Thank you very much.

CH: Casey Stoney is the new head coach of Canada's women's soccer team. We reached her in Toronto.

[folk]

Part 2: Premiers Meet, Pineapple Pizza Fees

Premiers Meet

Guest: Dennis King

CH: Canada's first ministers say they're in agreement about how to respond to Donald Trump's threats -- with one notable exception. The 14 federal, provincial, and territorial leaders met online and in Ottawa today to hash out a response to the U.S. president-elect's tariff talk. But at the end of the day, Alberta Premier Danielle Smith didn't sign the final statement. Instead, she posted on social media that, quote, "federal government officials continue to publicly and privately float the idea of cutting off energy supply to the U.S. Until these threats cease, Alberta will not be able to fully support the federal government’s plan in dealing with the threatened tariffs." Unquote. That prompted this response from Ontario premier Doug Ford.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: That is her choice. But I have a little different theory. I have a different theory that protect your jurisdiction, but country comes first. Canada is a priority. And I don't believe in jeopardizing one sector or another. Premier Smith's oil is Ontario's auto sector, right? So, again, we all have different views. And we can respect each other's views. But at the end of the day, when the tariffs come, it's going to affect Albertans, it's going to affect people from B.C., and Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, all the way down the road. No one's exempt from that. And all I believe in, you know, if it comes to that, let's, let's have the tools in our toolbox to react.

CH: Ontario Premier Doug Ford, after today's first ministers meeting. Dennis King is the premier of Prince Edward Island. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Premier King, Premier Doug Ford sounded baffled there in terms of the play we saw from Alberta Premier Danielle Smith today. You know, he's talking about putting together, putting forward a united front. Are Canada's first ministers actually united on this issue?

DENNIS KING: Yeah, I think, Nil, I do believe we're united. I think what we were talking about all for most of the meeting was what we need to do as a country to be prepared for the potential imposing of 25 per cent tax by the United States on Canadian goods and services. And we talked at great length about the importance of a Team Canada approach, about how we need to have everything on the table. But we didn't really get into the specifics of if he does this, we'll do that. But I do think in general terms, we're united in our, in our approach. First of all, we don't want to see any tariffs implemented because that won't just impact Canadian businesses and Canadian citizens. But there'll actually end up being a tax on American citizens as well. So, we'd like to do everything we can to avoid that. But if we need to prepare a retaliation strategy, that's what we talked about today. And, of course, once we find out what we need to retaliate for, if anything, we'll then as a country try to figure out what is the best approach for us to take.

NK: It is certainly no small thing, as anyone who, who knows even a bit about politics, to see this much unity from, from the majority of, of first ministers in this country on this issue. But as you well know, Alberta's premier, Danielle Smith, did not sign the joint statement that you all released. She, she released late in the day her own statement saying in part, quote, Alberta will simply not agree to export tariffs on our energy or other products. End quote. What signal does that send, Premier, do you think, to the United States at this moment?

DK: Well, look, I do think, I'm just getting back from the meeting. I haven't got a chance to get overly familiar with Premier Smith's comments. But, you know, listening to her today, and listening to her in the past, I certainly understand and respect from where she's coming from. What we all talked about as premiers is, is we want to make sure jurisdictionally, if we need to respond, that there's some kind of equality across the board. One group of people shouldn't take or bear the brunt for all of Canadians in this process. So, to the extent the federal government can, they will try to be equal across the board. But we do need to take the approach from a Team Canada perspective that if there are tariffs imposed, our goal has to be to work as fast as we can to get them removed as quickly as we can. And that's why we want to make sure that everything is on the table to do that.

NK: Prime Minister Trudeau has said he supports a dollar for dollar response to any U.S. tariffs, should it come to that, of course. What can you tell us about how that might work?

DK: Well, I think that is the $64,000 question that we have to figure out. One thing that I did try to bring up at the table a couple of times today is these tariffs are only being talked about. They're not put in place yet. The new president-elect doesn't actually get inaugurated until the 20th of January. And then, we will see what happens from there. But I don't think we as a country should give up the ghost yet of making sure we do everything we can to make sure the tariffs shouldn't go in place in the first place. And I think a part of our, you know, Team P.E.I. mission to the northeastern U.S. this week was about talking directly to American consumers to make sure they understand that a tariff is a, actually, we're calling it the "Trump Tariff Tax". And that this will be a tax on the bottom line for consumers in the United States who fought the election and voted for the incoming president in November because of the cost of living. And adding tax to the bottom line of groceries and goods and services for American citizens is not going to be very popular, I think. And I think if we can continue to take that approach, we might actually head this off before it starts.

NK: And what kinds of things did you hear as you, as you made that pitch and told people that on your trip?

DK: Well, we talked to 400 or 500 Americans, you know? And I never heard one that wants a tariff. I think they understand in particular places like New Hampshire, the live free or die state, where they don't have taxes, they don't like the talk of any tax going on the bottom line. They want to, they want to reduce taxes. So, we haven't heard anyone down there who wants this tarrif. And when they begin to understand that, you know, if you look at the Hannaford grocery chain, 180-some stores in northeastern U.S., they have hundreds and hundreds of products from Canada on their store shelves. And if there's a 25 per cent tariff or tax on those products, all of those products end up, you know, it gets passed on to the end user. And when Americans hear that, they say, well, we don't want that. We, we have a long-standing history and friendship with Canada. You're our best friend, you're our ally, and you're a great neighbour. We want to continue to help each other. Instead of talking about what divides us, let's try to find more opportunities that are there to grow our economies on both sides of the border.

NK: Would you, would you say, though, Premier King, before you made that pitch and spoke to all those folks, was anyone worried about Canadian retaliation?

DK: I don't think anyone down there truly understands what tariffs actually mean and what they represent. And that's where I think maybe the missed opportunity for us as a country has been not talking directly to American consumers as of what this actually represents. You've heard me say this before, Nil. The, the United States should very much try to level out its, its trade imbalance with many other countries. But its trade imbalance with Canada is negligible. And we're so integrated on both sides of the border that we need our economies to continue unobstructed and uninterrupted. But we should be supporting the United States when they look to level their trade imbalance with countries like China and Germany and other countries around the world.

NK: I know you don't have a crystal ball, premier, [DK chuckles] but what's your, what's your read? What is your gut telling you about what is going to happen on Monday in the U.S. in terms of tariffs?

DK: Well, this is what I know. Donald Trump will be inaugurated as the president of the United States, and then he will begin to go to work implementing many of the things that he talked about during the election campaign. I remain hopeful. I'm an eternal optimist. Maybe I'm too optimistic. I believe there are just too many other important issues that the American people and the American government need to focus on that should actually, pardon the pun, but Trump, this need to talk about Canada in terms of unnecessary tariffs that are only going to hurt people that supported the president and will continue to support the president.

NK: Well, we do know a lot about puns here at AIH.

DK: [chuckling] Yes, you do.

NK: Premiere King, I appreciate your time.

DK: Nil. A great honour to be back on with you. Thanks for having me.

CH: Dennis King is the Premier of Prince Edward Island. We reached him in Ottawa.

[ambient instrumental]

Trucker Rescue

CH: A trucker from Saskatoon has earned his wings. Kingsley Ogieva has been named a "Highway Angel" by the Truckload Carriers Association. Last November, he was on an Alberta highway when he came across an overturned truck. And when he went to help the driver, he put himself in danger.

SOUNDCLIP

KINGSLEY OGIEVA: We realized that the best option was to break the windshield. And, you know, so he can just come out easily. On getting the windshield out of the way, before he could come out, we heard a big bang. And before I knew what was happening, I was under his truck. Both of my legs were pinned. But the good thing was he was safe after the big bang. And then, I was now the one in distress.

ADAM HUNTER: How much time from when you saw the driver and stopped to when you heard that bang and the other vehicle hit the truck?

KO: It was within, I would say, like seven minutes while we're trying to get him out of the truck. And everything went haywire from there.

AH: How were you able to get free?

KO: I had to wait for a while for fire service guys to come around. I can't remember how long I was there. I guess if it took, for me, it felt like a long time. I would say more than half an hour, I was there waiting for the fire service guys to come around.

AH: What were your injuries, Kingsley?

KO: Just scratches on my left leg. Then, on my right leg, I had lacerations just close to my knee. There was a lot of soft tissue damage right beside my knee. But the good thing is, I didn't have any broken bones. And I didn't make any artery at the scene, so, because I was there for a while. And I just, I was just happy. I was glad that I didn't have to bleed to death, you know, and any other thing like that. So, it was a good thing.

AH: How are you doing now?

KO: I'm fine. I'm recovering pretty well. I put the legs on the ground. I'm able to feel my legs and walk around a little bit with them. I'm busy seeing the physio for now. So, hopefully, there's going to be good news.

AH: Are you looking forward to getting back driving? Or are you going to take a break from that? What are your thoughts on that?

KO: I'm looking forward to getting back driving. I love driving. I love seeing the vegetation in our country, going around from Saskatoon to Calgary, all the way to Edmonton, and back to Saskatoon. It's always fun driving around.

CH: Truck driver Kingsley Ogieva speaking to Adam Hunter on Morning Edition in Regina today.

[funk]

Pineapple Pizza Fees

Guest: Francis Woolf

CH: Some debates are timeless -- cats versus dogs, tea versus coffee, Real Housewives of Beverly Hills versus Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. But few questions will elicit responses as divided, or as passionately committed, as "Hey -- you want pineapple on your pizza?" As It Happens has bravely grabbed this culinary third-rail many times. Most bravely in 2017, when we grilled -- or baked in a wood-fired oven -- Iceland's former president over his publicly expressed opposition to pineapple on pizza. At the time, Guðni Jóhannesson said that, if he could, he would ban it as a pizza topping. Now, one English pizzeria has made its position extremely clear. You can order a Hawaiian pizza from Lupa Pizza in Norwich if you want -- but it's going to cost you 100 pounds -- which is about $175 Canadian. You could call that "extortion," but they're calling it a statement. Francis Woolf is a co-owner of Lupa Pizza. We reached him in Norwich.

NK: Francis, 100 pounds! I just did the conversion, $175.27 Canadian. Is this a protest, a dare, or a secret plan to become millionaires a slice at a time?

FRANCIS WOOLF: [both chuckle] Well, I mean, it would be lovely to become millionaires, I guess. But no, I would, I would say it's none of those things, really. I mean, to be honest with you, it's, it was just a joke. We, we popped it on our, on our online menu at the restaurant over a week ago, just as a joke. We were going over the menu and we thought, wouldn't it be funny to put on a pineapple pizza at 100 pounds? Just to make our stance clear on the matter, you know, that we, that we thought if people wanted to have a Hawaiian pizza, then they ought to, they ought pay through the nose for their, for their terrible judgment. [NK chuckles] And so, and then, obviously, at the end of last week, it got picked up by, by the world's media. And, and here we are.

NK: How are customers reacting?

FW: Interestingly enough, we're open this evening. And I'm just about to head down to the restaurant now, just to see how things are going and see if we've actually sold any [chuckling] of the 100 pound pizzas.

NK: The times are tough! Do you think someone's going to actually pay [laughing] 100 pounds?

FW: Do you know what? I, people, people are pretty bonkers. I think, I think somebody is going to, somebody's going to order it. However, we, obviously, because we're not, we're not complete aholes, [NK laughs] we, if somebody does decide they want to spend 100 pounds, which is, what did you say, $175 Canadian?

NK: And change, yeah.

FW: Wow. Yeah. I mean, it, that sounds like even, that sounds like an awful lot.

NK: It is a lot, yes.

FW: Yes.

NK: In any currency.

FW: Yeah, exactly. But if somebody does, does order it, I think we, well, we've got a bit of a plan in place, so it's not going to be so hard on their wallets. We've got, we've got a little goodie pack that's going to go along with the pizza, which should soften the blow somewhat.

NK: Okay. So, you're not totally heartless here. But I think many people would say misguided, perhaps, on the issue of pineapple. I think you started as a joke, but this is inadvertently triggering an international incident, perhaps. You may, you may know Hawaiian pizza was created by a man from London -- London, Ontario -- Sam Panopoulos.

FW: Yes. Yes.

NK: A big name on our, on our program.

FW: Yeah.

NK: What do you say to Canadians and pizza fans everywhere -- pineapple pizza fans -- who're deeply, deeply offended.

FW: [chuckle] Canadian fans of the Hawaiian, this goes out to you. Look deep down, deep down inside yourselves, and, and think about who you truly are, and if that is how you want to represent yourself in a culinary way? If it is, I think, perhaps you need to look at your life choices.

NK: Wow. [FW laughs] You really do want to start a, to start a fight here.

FW: Obviously, this is all very tongue-in-cheek for us.

NK: I mean, we're taking it completely seriously. I don't know what you're talking about. [FW laughs] The prime minister is drafting a letter to you, I'm sure. The Panopoulos family is filing court proceedings, filing court documents.

FW: You'd be surprised. You'd be, you'd be surprised. We've had some really, really vehement reactions to all of this. Yeah, I mean, I mean, we've, we've [chuckling] had people threaten to burn down the restaurant.

NK: Oh, come on.

FW: Death threats. No, seriously. But, but alongside all of those, we've had some really lovely comments, and a load of support as well, which has been really fun.

NK: You've tried pineapple on pizza, yes? You've made this, this is an educated choice on your behalf? On your part, rather?

FW: Absolutely. I mean, I tried pineapple on pizza many, many times when I was a small child, which is, I think, what --

NK: That's another dig.

FW: I think it suits that kind of palate, if you know what I'm saying.

NK: I knew that was coming. [FW chuckles] Are there other, other, other toppings that are maybe not as priced as as high on your, on your menu, but you also have an issue with?

FW: No, not really. I mean, to be honest with you, like, if I, if I'm being perfectly honest, I think, I do really think, each other, right? I think that I'm, like, the actual ethos of the restaurant, and believe it or not, is, is that people can create their own topping combinations. So, so, we're a bit, we're a bit unique in, certainly, Norwich for this. We, so people choose their pizza base, and then they, they have a tick list of toppings. And they can tick everything that they want on the pizza. Unfortunately, pineapple is not on there because none of us like it. But we do, we do support people to kind of, to kind of make their own choice. I just think, we just [chuckling] don't think the Pineapple is very nice.

NK: Any toppings that you would fight for or pay 100 pound for?

FW: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'm not sure if I'd pay 100 pounds for a pizza full stop. But, you know, we're certainly not trying to do the whole sort of like Salt Bae thing, where we're, we're gilding the crust of the pizza or anything like that.

NK: Yeah, please don't.

FW: Our pizzas are actually, are actually, you know, relatively inexpensive. We're, so I don't know what it would be, actually, what did you say, $175? So, it would be, our pizzas would work out about $15 to $18 Canadian, which, which I think is fair. We're actually fairly inexpensive, which is why this is quite a, quite a big, big leap to go up to 100.

NK: I mean, pizza itself can be how it's prepared. If people have preferences, they would, might be angry whether an Italian or not Italian is, is making this.

FW: Oh, 100 per cent.

NK: Right? I'm sure you hear all the time, what is your pizza like with or without pineapple?

FW: Well, so, our pizza is, is, is actually quite a unique dough. It's kind of, I'd say it's most similar to a kind of New York style pizza. But, but we've worked really hard on creating our own kind of original dough, our own original sauce. Personally, obviously, I think our pizzas are fantastic. And I'd love for anyone from, from Norwich, the U.K., and beyond, all the way to Canada, to come over and try one because I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

\NK: And no chance that pineapple is getting off this, this 100 pound list?

FW: Well, we're going to wait and see. So, there's a few different polls out there. We've got, there's one on our Instagram, and there, there are some running on some, on various news websites. And we’re going to see what the consensus is. If there are enough votes that pineapple should, does belong on a pizza, we are willing to create a special, which we've got, we've got a few in the pipeline.

NK: Okay.

FW: And the special will go on for a week, and it will include pineapple in some way, but not in the way that most people expect.

NK: Interesting. What if one of your family members, I don't know if you have children, but what if they came to you and said, Dad, I like pineapple and pizza?

FW: Well, luckily my daughter is currently out of earshot. [NK laughs] But if she did ever come and say that to me, I think, well, we'd be having serious words, let's say. I mean, possibly writing her out of the will.

NK: [laughing]She's listening. I'm going to text her. I'm going to text and tell her what's what. [FW laughs] Francis, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

FW: And you. Take care. Thank you very much.

CH: Francis Woolf is a co-owner of Lupa Pizza. We reached him in Norwich, England.

[eerie instrumental]

Banksy Boss

CH: A Bristol youth worker is shedding some light on the world's most mysterious street artist. Banksy's stencils now trade for millions. But back in the late '90s he was still building a reputation for tagging Bristol, England with his now-trademark mix of the playful and the political. And that's when a youth worker named Peter De Boer was looking for local artists to bring into a popular youth centre in the hopes of inspiring some of the kids.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER DE BOER: No idea who this guy was. Got his phone number, so I used to call him up, and ask if he'll come and do some art projects. And he did. And he was very, very keen to do that. But this is right on that kind of cusp of him becoming famous. He was doing this out of passion. I don't think he was doing it for the money because I don't think we paid him very much.

ALEX HOWICK: How much did you pay him?

PDB: Well, I think the first one, we paid him 50 pounds. You know, it probably only covered the cost of the spray paints, really, back then. Like, literally, sit around a table with, with young people, talking about their ideas, talking about what they'd like to, to see. You know, getting their ideas, their designs. And I think the young people would be sort of doodling. He would then work with them and sort of develop a kind of idea of what they could look like. And then, in the afternoon, it was about painting. And, you know, they would, they would all just muck in and spray, you know, these, these things that were just invented in the morning. It wasn't more Banksy than the young people. It was definitely a kind of 50/50 thing. And, I think, you know, we'd have to stop every now and then just to kind of tidy up some drips. I personally painted over a Banksy, and I'd thrown a Banksy stencil away when I was cleaning up. You know, he left a stencil here. And I remember throwing that away. We were cleaning cupboards. Yeah, no, I have no regrets at all because, you know, back then, it was, it was much more about working with and engaging young people. And, you know, it was just an art project back then. I'm very proud that, actually, you know, he came here, he worked with local young people. There'll be young people in this community who are parents now, who have worked with Banksy, you know? And they, they may not know that. You know, they might see this. They might twig that, actually, [chuckle] I was there at that time.

CH: That was the Bristol youth worker Peter De Boer, speaking to the BBC's Alex Howick about his alleged time working with Banksy before he got famous.

[ambient]

Part 3: Obesity Guidelines, S. Africa Mine Deaths

Obesity Guidelines

Guest: Katherine Morrison

CH: Obesity has been redefined. Yesterday, The Lancet published new clinical guidelines, endorsed by 75 medical organizations worldwide, and based on years of research by the Lancet Diabetes and Endocrinology Commission. The new approach focuses less on an individual's body mass index, or BMI, and more on medical complications. Dr. Katherine Morrison is the co-director of McMaster University's Centre for Metabolism, Obesity and Diabetes Research, and one of the co-authors of the new guidelines.

We reached her in Hamilton, Ontario.

NK: Dr. Morrison, height, weight, a tape measure, a simple, but as you well know, a controversial calculation. And it has been controversial for a long time. What was BMI getting so wrong about obesity?

KATRHERINE MORRISON: You know, it's a, it's a great question. And you're right, we've been using it for a long time because it's easy. It's simple. The challenge is that at the individual level, it really tells us very little about health. And the purpose of this report, or one of the purposes, was to address that and say, no, we really need to do a better job.

NK: It is, and has been, so pervasive, though. How do you combat that after so much time?

KM: You know, that's a, I hope that getting the message out is the first start. And that includes to, to the public. But, of course, also to doctors. And so, we need to spend our focus as well, having introduced this report, to now make sure that health professionals around the world, physicians, as well as other health professionals, are well aware of what we are saying. And, you know, this is work that Obesity Canada has been doing in the last years, trying to encourage people to focus on health. And, and so, this will hopefully also back them up as they're proceeding with that in Canada.

NK: What you're suggesting here, these, these proposed guidelines, make a clearer distinction between what is known as clinical obesity and preclinical obesity. Can you break, break that down for our listeners?

KM: Absolutely. So, obesity itself will be defined on the basis of the presence of excess body fat. But just having that, there are many people that have more body fat who do not have any health issues. And those are individual, and they may never. And those are individuals that we we define as having preclinical obesity. They are at risk of developing health issues down the road, but they may never develop those. Those with clinical obesity, on the other hand, are individuals who have a chronic, systemic disease that is directly caused by having excess adiposity. So, they already have health issues associated with carrying extra body, body fat.

NK: With the BMI index, you know, a doctor might say, well, well, you're, you're, you're classified as obese, but you're, you're at this number. So, it's, it's not as serious. How is that different, or worse, if that's the suggestion, from differentiating between clinical obesity and preclinical obesity, why are those specific words important?

KM: I think because it's very important that we are focusing on health and not just on a measure of weight for height, which is what BMI is. And that we encourage physicians, as they do with all of their patients, to take a history and a physical exam, and to do laboratory work to actually identify the health issues in an individual. There are people with elevated BMI who have perfectly normal body fat. There are people that have a normal BMI who have increased body fat, and therefore, where we're misdiagnosing a considerable percentage of people just relying on BMI. So, it's important to actually measure body fat. And then, if there is increased body fat, to go and ensure the individual's health situation.

NK: What kind of implications do you think that, that these kinds of guidelines could have on how doctors prescribe drugs that treat obesity or access to insurance that covers those drugs?

KM: Yeah, I, I hope that, that defining this very clearly as a disease with health, health, current health issues, will enable folks to receive appropriate care. And that appropriate care may be based on behavioural modification management. It may be based on, on pharmacotherapy or medications, as you noted. And it may be bariatric surgery. The clear piece is that there are individuals who may have been recommended these who don't need them because their body fat percentage is, in fact, normal. And so, I think we're hoping that we can more personalize the care for individuals.

NK: Is this also, you know, when you say, talking about this as a disease, is this also about dealing with the stigma that, that still exists? Maybe there's been a shift over time, but it's certainly still there -- the stigma that's linked to obesity and, and particular body types. And this idea that, that there's a, there's a character flaw involved.

KM: I think that is a fundamentally important component of this report. And, honestly, the work that we do helping our patients all together. It is very important. And we worked in the report to emphasize the importance of widespread recognition amongst, amongst scientists of the biological and mechanistic underpinnings or things that lead to increased body fat. And we hope that understanding the biology, the importance of appetite, control in the brain, for example, will help to reduce that stigma, remove that stigma. Because we know that obesity has been treated as a personal failure. But this is not a personal decision. This results from the biology of the individual.

NK: In terms of reaction, just personally, what have you been seeing and hearing from people?

KM: I've, I've been hearing from, from a lot of people of my colleagues. So, very happy to hear that we're continuing to focus on, on function and on health of individuals and not just on how they appear or how they look. So, that's a positive thing just from the pediatric side especially. And a lot of questions similar to the ones that we've raised here about, well, how come BMI was used and isn't really very useful? And BMI may be a useful indicator at the population level, but it is not useful as a measure of health risk for the individual.

NK: Dr. Morrison, thank you.

SOUNDCLIP

EDWARD CAMILLERI: It is a considerable disappointment because it is not so much that pigeon racing has not been recognized as a sport. It is the fact that they recognize some sports which require even less activity. For example, yoga has been recognized as a recognized sport. And yoga, to the best of my knowledge, is sitting in uncomfortable positions and relaxing completely, which is hardly a human exercise.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: They've called yoga a sport?

EC: Oh yes, it's a recognized sport.

ME: That's interesting.

EC: They've also recognized pool. I don't know what pool, what pool is in Canadian. But pool in, in England is a game to play with, on a small billiards-type table in pubs.

ME: Right.

EC: And there's more activity in the beer drinking than there is in the pool. [ME chuckles] And that's, that is now a recognized sport.

ME: On what grounds did these tax people make this decision?

EC: Well, the British government, probably Treasury-led, reluctantly agreed to implement a European Union directive, which required sports clubs to be exempt of VAT on their subscriptions. And they produced a list which came from the Sports Council. And the Sports Council decided that pigeon racing was more animal activity than it was physical. And as far as they were concerned, it wasn't a recognized sport, which is quite extraordinary because the Royal Pigeon Racing Association has been a member of the British Field Sport Society for a number of years. And field sports themselves are recognized.

ME: There is, however, something of a point to what they say. The pigeon does work, pardon me, a bit more, a bit harder than the handler, I take.

EC: Yeah. But without the handler, the pigeons' race would be void because when the pigeon comes home, the handler must catch the pigeon, remove a race rubber off the pigeon's leg, put into a thimble, and put it into a clock as quickly as it can. And if he's slow or butter-fingered over it, his neighbour would beat him. Because pigeon racing is a, pigeon races are won or lost on, amongst other things, how quickly you can trap the pigeon and, and get the race rubber into the clock. And if one is fast and one is slow, one is going to beat the other.

ME: What do you think is at work here then? Why do you think this, this decision came down, flying the face of what's obvious to you?

EC: Well, it's a, it's like all these things. I suppose the Treasury don't like, the British Treasury in particular, don't like paying out money. And they draw the line somewhere. Unfortunately, they've got the line drawn in the wrong place. Because if yoga is, is, is a recognized sport, then pigeon racing is more than a recognized sport.

CH: From Our Archives, that was Major Edward Camilleri of the Royal Pigeon Racing Association speaking with former As It Happens host Michael Enright in 1996.

[eerie instrumental]

Stolen Regalia

CH: Toronto police are asking people to keep an eye out for a stolen suitcase with something of tremendous value inside. Last weekend, someone stole traditional regalia belonging to Anishnaabe dancer and educator Tim McGregor out of his truck in downtown Toronto. Today, Mr. McGregor told the CBC how his trip to Toronto took a turn.

SOUNDCLIP

TIM MCGREGOR: I went the night before to the Indigenous Night with the Leafs playing the Canucks. And went back to my hotel. As I was walking up Bay Street from the arena, I saw that my truck was still there. And I went to sleep very comfortably. And I woke up the next morning, had breakfast, and I looked across, and my truck was, you know, nothing untoward about it. But when I got there, I found out that my tonneau cover on the back was slit on both sides. And anybody knows with the tonneau covers, there's pins on the rear quarter panels that you have to pull to open. And, well, that's what happened. They slit, pulled those pins, and flipped it open. And my tonneau cover was slipped open. When I looked inside, my, my large suitcase was gone. And my heart sank then. I just, I knew it was in there. I knew, you know, that in, well, in my mind, it was safe, you know? It just, most times I take my regalia, I take it for teaching moments at schools. And that's what I work for. And I bring it out and talk about my regalia. It's got more spiritual significance, but it also has geography attached to it. It has history attached to it. It's all very much a part of me, a part of the Anishinaabe Nation. So, had that gone, that's why I said, my, my heart sank. And, you know, knowing it was gone, I looked around the parking lot, of course, and it was nothing to see. And that's when, you know, that's when it hit me. It is black, white, and red. It's beadwork. Every piece is beadwork. And it's, it's quite heavy. And it's, you know, very important to me and my, my, the shirt and outfit where it's red and white. So, it's mostly all red and white with black.

DAVID COMMON: I understand those colours had significance for your mother, too.

TM: Absolutely. Absolutely. She was a well-known elder and dancer, and she danced for many decades. And when her, I guess, extremities weren't working as much as well as they should for dancing, so she asked me if I'd carry on and wear her colours for her, which I do proudly. And that was her, her colours. And has a special attachment to me. Those colours are very important to Anishnaabe. But so much so because my mom passed those on to me. That's really, really a deep seated, rooted kind of an emotional connection to that. My heart says it's going to come back. My heart says it's going to come back. So, I'll sit tight for a while. You know, it'll, it'll come back in one way I believe. You know, our teachings tell us to put tobacco down. And I've done that every morning, and asked the higher power, Gizhemanidoo, our creator, to take care of that and bring it back to me.

CH: That was Tim McGregor speaking with David Common on Metro Morning.

[ambient]

S. Africa Mine Deaths

Guest: Zinzi Tom

CH: For months, Ayanda Tom has been stuck underground. He's one of hundreds of illegal miners known as Zama Zamas who are in an abandoned gold mine in South Africa -- and who have either been unable or unwilling to come to the surface. When we first told you about that mine in November, police were refusing to help. In fact, they cut off the miners' supplies of food and water, to try to force them out. That changed this week when officials began a rescue operation, only to end it abruptly today. After pulling out more than 240 survivors -- as well as dozens of bodies -- police say they believe everyone has been brought to the surface. Ayanda Tom's sister, Zinzi Tom, had filed an urgent application with the High Court of South Africa trying to force the government to help. She's been anxiously waiting outside the mine shaft, and was hoping for good news today. We reached Zinzi Tom in Stilfontein, South Africa.

NK: Zinzi, I know you've just returned home from the site of the mine. To let our listeners know, police initially said they were going to continue this mission, the rescue mission, until next week. Today, they stopped. What does that mean for your brother?

ZINZI TOM: I have lost hope. I'm not okay. And it's a very sad moment for us as a family. We don't know. But I don't want to lose hope yet. The, the, community leaders that went down, they said that they have retrieved every body that is underground, and that they have retrieved every person who's alive. So, they are certain that there's no one else underground.

NK: Oh, Zinzi, I'm so sorry.

ZT: Yes.

NK: What was, what was happening outside the mine site, as much as you can share, when you were there?

ZT: We were waiting and hopeful. The police came today. The trucks, all four of them forensic, all of them, they came. But, yeah, as I'm saying, I'm not in a right state. But, hopefully, in some way, he's there. Because they were, they told me that he didn't go in Shaft 11. So, I'm still hopeful that he may be in Shaft 10, he can be retrieved. Since, well, somebody said that two weeks back, he informed them that he's going to try to come out to the gate.

NK: That's the last time you heard from your brother -- two weeks ago?

ZT: No. People who are with him on the ground.

NK: Oh, people who are with him. Okay. And when was the last time you had any communication?

ZT: In July last year. At that time, he was going underground. He just told me that he's going. And, yeah, that was it. That was our last conversation.

NK: How did you feel about him going to do this work?

ZT: At first, I never approved. But he's not a man, he's of the age for him to decide for himself.

NK: Yeah.

ZT: It has basically became a norm that you go there and come back. I didn't know that in July, when it closed, it became a state were by I don't know what is going on with him. I don't want to declare him dead. I'm still hopeful. I'm still hopeful -- very hopeful -- that maybe in Shaft 10, he's on his way. Since there are people who retrieved themselves. I'm hopeful and praying to God that he's going to come back. That's because I don't want to lose hope now. I'm praying to God that he's still alive, and is going to come out.

NK: Yeah, of course. I hope you get the news you want, Zinzi. What did your brother tell you about why he wanted to do this work, given the risks? And you know that South African government officials have described these miners, even, even, you know, when the crisis began, that he said they were, quote, criminals who are not to be helped, unquote. Why did your brother need to do this work?

ZT: Because of unemployment. He has been looking for a job for a long time. Until then, he resorted to risking his life going underground, and saying that he's going to try to make ends meet. As long as he's not terrorizing anyone or harassing the community, he's going to go there.

NK: He's a father, too. What have you been telling his children?

ZT: We've been trying to tell them because they are asking us where's our father? Where's our father? Where's our father? And we are like, he is going to come back. We've been trying to give them that hope.

NK: Have you told them anything about today? How old are they?

ZT: They are minors. I haven't told my family yet. I told, yes, I don't have guards. Even now, I'm just running around. I'm scared. I'm scared to look my mother in the eyes and tell her the news today.

NK: Zinzi, what do you want people to know about your brother and your family?

ZT: There's nothing much that I need them to know. The only thing that I'm asking for their prayers. I'm asking for them to pray for me. I need, I need my brother to come out alive. Can they please pray for us. I'm very hopeful that maybe in number 10, we will retrieve him someday.

NK: You're clearly shouldering a lot of this for your family, Zinzi, do you have someone to lean on -- and support as well?

ZT: Other community leaders have been there for me, supporting me from Day One. Even today, they are with me, trying to encourage me that I should not lose hope now. So, with them in my sight, I get a little bit of strength. Because every time when I try to lose hope and get weak, they will tell me that you can't give up now. You have to be strong.

NK: Zinzi, you've been very generous with your time. I do hope you get the news you're hoping for.

ZT: Take care. Thank you very much.

NK: Please take care.

ZT: Thank you.

CH: We reached Zinzi Tom in Stilfontein, South Africa.

[lo-fi]

Junior Women’s Hockey Coach

CH: Canadian women’s hockey is thriving, and it recently got yet another boost. Team Canada won Gold at the 2025 IIHF Under 18 Women’s World Championship in Vantaa, Finland. Head Coach Vicky Sunohara played a big role in that win. And as one of Canada's most accomplished players as well, she earned a honour that surprised her -- but no one else. She talked to Metro Morning about that today.

SOUNDCLIP

VIICKY SUNOHARA: We started in August with a group of 46. And, you know, our, our plan was just to go one day at a time and one step at a time. And so, we didn't look ahead to a Gold medal game. We just tried to be better. We, we spoke about being better one per cent every day. And the team and staff really focused on that. And I think that when, you know, we were all doing that, that results often take care of themselves.

DAVID COMMON: Vicky, you've got such a deep history in this game and in this tournament. But in this game, you know, I think back to the late '90s, early 2000s, you played, you medaled. What are the changes that you've seen since then?

VS: Well, the players, I mean, I often say I'm glad I played way back when because just the skill level of these kids, the strength, the speed, and the hockey IQ is just growing so much. You know, the, the growth of the game, and with the professional league, the PWHL, there's so many opportunities for girls and women that, you know, I think the sky's the limit.

DC: It's quite remarkable. Here we are now, three Olympic medals later for you. You're going to be inducted into the International Hockey Hall of Fame this year. What did you think when you found out?

VS: I didn't really think that that was why I was getting a call from Louis Tardif of the IIHF. But, you know, what I think about most is it really gives me an opportunity to reflect. And I'm so thankful for the opportunities that I've been given. I've met so many wonderful people, my, my very good friends or some of my former teammates, and just the experiences that I had as a player and now as a coach. It's so rewarding. And, again, I'm just, I'm so thankful for the opportunities that I've been given.

CH: Vicky Sunohara, head coach of the 2025 Canada Under 18 Women’s Hockey champs. She'll be inducted into the International Hockey Hall of Fame this spring. She was talking to David Common, host of Metro Morning in Toronto.

[elevator music]

Dartmouth Musician

CH: This week, Ian Janes got an email from Spotify, encouraging him to promote his upcoming single "Street Alone." And on the face of it, the email wasn't totally out of the ordinary: Mr. Janes is a musician in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. And he does release his music on Spotify. And "Street Alone" was listed as an upcoming release on his profile. The weird part was that he'd never heard, or heard of, that song. And he definitely didn't write it.

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IAN JANES: I look in my profile, and it's a song that I didn't write it, I didn't record, I know nothing about. There's a picture which looked very A.I.-generated. It was a man from behind, like a cartoon character walking down a dark street, which people might do for a single art, but I didn't. I Googled a bunch to see if maybe there was another Ian Janes who actually was releasing a single. But so far, I can't find any trace of that on the internet.

ERIN MACINNIS: That's so strange. And is it like a real song? Did you try to play it?

IJ: I couldn't figure out how to play it. But when I logged back on, I realized that it was, in fact, a 20-song entire record that's supposed to come out. The first single is supposed to come out in a few days.

EM: Oh!

IJ: But it's actually a whole record. There's like a cover of "Hey Ho" by The Lumineers, which is not really very close to my style, but a very popular title that might help it to gain momentum on the platform. But there were several other titles on this 20-song tracklist, which were the same as other songs that had been popular relatively recently. So, that would be another way that the algorithm would be responding because they would see, oh, that title just went number one with a country singer. So, let's put that title on here, too, because it might attract more clicks, you know, or something like that.

EM: So, what do you think is actually going on here? Or what have you been able to find out about why A.I. would do this? Or maybe a person might have done this?

IJ: Well, I immediately reached out to Spotify, so they were like, so, to be clear, you're concerned that this song may not be you? And, and I just laughed and said, oh no, I'm definitely concerned. And I'm definitely sure that it's not me because I didn't make that song and I didn't upload it. So, I did hear back from them, and they were like, okay, we're looking into it. We're going to take this song off of your profile. It might take a couple of days to, to disappear from there, but it won't be released.

EM: Now, the song that you posted online, the fake song, "Street Alone".

IJ: Yes.

EM: I know you haven't heard it, but has that inspired you to possibly write a song called "Street Alone"?

IJ: Maybe I should. I said in my social media post that if it comes out or, you know, again, if it happens to be someone else releasing that song and it's great, then I'm going to post a cover of it.

EM: Sounds good. I'll be, [IJ laughs] I'll be looking forward to that.

IJ: Yeah, me too. I kind of almost hope it comes out. I'd kind of like to hear what it sounds like.

CH: Ian Janes is a musician in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. He was talking to the CBC's Erin MacInnis.

The AIH Transcript For January 15, 2025

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