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The AIH transcript for February 18, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

HM: No seat at the table. The U.S. and Russia start negotiating an end to the war in Ukraine -- without including Ukraine in the negotiations.

CH: Leaping to our defence. Given the threat the Trump Administration poses to the world order -- and Canada in particular -- retired general, and former MP, Andrew Leslie says it's time we re-assess our national defence needs.

HM: Sleeping on the jab. Louisiana announces an end to promoting mass vaccination -- but the head of the New Orleans Health Department urges people to listen to the science instead of the state government.

CH: She did more than just survive. Her former principal-turned-friend remembers Anne Marie Hochhalter -- who was shot and paralyzed in the Columbine shooting in 1999, but never gave up on life.

HM: A get-unrich-quick scheme. The president of Argentina is accused of pumping up a cryptocurrency, only for it to crash -- and cause a lot of people to lose a lot of money.

CH: And...building a collection instead of building a building. An Oklahoma man earns a new record for having the world's largest collection of bricks. And trying to make him stop collecting is like banging your head against some kind of wall.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday Edition. Radio that knows a lot of people wanted that record, but, you know -- them's the bricks.

Part 1: U.S.-Russia Meeting, Columbine Survivor Obit, Argentina Crypto

U.S.-Russia Meeting

Guest: Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze

CH: The stakes were high as negotiators met today in the Saudi Arabian city of Riyadh to begin discussions intended to secure a peace in the war in Ukraine. And given the stakes, it was odd that the negotiations included only Russian and American delegations -- and no one from Ukraine at all. U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio addressed criticism that that was either a strange oversight -- or an intentional exclusion.

SOUNDCLIP

MARCO RUBIO: Three years while it's raged, no one else has been able to bring something together like what we saw today. Because Donald Trump is the only leader in the world that can. So, no one is being sidelined here. But President Trump is in a position that he campaigned on to initiate a process that could bring about an end to this conflict.

CH: For his part, Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelenskyy said, "Decisions on how to end the war in Ukraine cannot be made without Ukraine, nor can any conditions be imposed." Nevertheless, the talks did apparently yield an agreement to form negotiating teams -- and held out the possibility of “historic economic and investment opportunities” for Russia if the conflict is brought to a successful end. Ivanna Klyimpush-Tsintsadze is a member of Ukrainian parliament. We reached her on a train from Warsaw to Kyiv.

HM: Ms. Klyimpush-Tsintsadze, Marco Rubio, the U.S. secretary of state, says no one is being sidelined right now with this meeting in Riyadh. So, what message do you think is being sent to Ukraine by not having your country take part in these preliminary peace talks?

IVANNA KLYIMPUSH-TSINTSADZE: You know, I think that it doesn't matter whether Ukraine is taking part in those preliminary peace talks. If, for example, Ukraine would have been consulted and clearly aligned the position with before that. But once we are hearing that something is happening over our heads, that is definitely very concerning and very worrisome for the whole of Ukrainian nation that has been fighting fiercely for some sovereignty, for its independence, and the right to choose its own future.

HM: What are you hearing from your fellow Ukrainians? What are people saying about the fact that these talks have proceeded without your country?

IKT: Well, obviously, everybody has not expected something like that to happen. We've been counting, and continuously, on our partners from the U.S. We've been grateful for the great support of the American people that has been given to Ukraine, along with other partners. And we were expecting but nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine principle will be honoured further.

HM: Do you believe that the U.S. delegation has Ukraine's best interests in mind?

IKT: I would hope that the United States is cherishing the international law. I would hope that the United States team, negotiating team, is not going to trade on the Ukrainian sovereignty, territorial integrity, independence, Ukrainian sovereignty with the EU and NATO membership. Because this is not up to the Russian Federation to decide, and it is up to us and our partners to decide what we are doing next.

HM: Secretary Rubio has said that if the talks proceed to a more serious level, Ukraine will have a place at the table. But if that were not to happen, realistically, what can you do? What options do you have left?

IKT: Russia did not change its intentions. Russia does want to exterminate our nation. Russia does want to subjugate our country. And Russia does want to change the international order. And that is also about Europe and that is about the United States and other NATO member states. So therefore, for us, it's important to us to ensure that we are capable of defending our sovereignty, defending our territorial integrity, defending our choices. So, it's up to us to re-galvanize ourselves. But at the same time, also counting that European actors will be much more active in their deeds.

HM: Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said today that Russia would not agree to any NATO troops or any EU troops, for that matter, to be placed in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. The U.S. has also said it's not interested in sending troops. So, what kinds of security guarantees do you think are realistic to ensure any peace deal is lasting?

IKT: First of all, in the very same statement, Lavrov has also said that Russian Federation has never attacked any Ukrainian energy facilities. So, I mean, we, we see that disconnect with the reality on behalf of the Russian Federation and its minister of foreign affairs. That's one thing. With regard to security guarantees, I do believe that the only, and the most efficient, and the cheapest, and the fastest security guarantee would be making sure that, would be making sure that Russian Federation does not have any say in Ukraine's NATO membership. And having Ukraine in would actually mean that we are all together much stronger with Ukrainian capacities inside. But definitely, showing a sign of strength and unity to the Russian Federation. And that is the only language they do understand. But with regard to other options, you know, closing Ukrainian skies, providing Ukraine with such an air defence capabilities, with rockets, with the, with the possibilities to cover the country with, with protection. That would be something that would also be useful. Investing in the Ukrainian defence industry so that we could also provide ourselves as possibilities to all to defend ourselves. But that requires action and common, common vision among all international actors of the free world.

HM: Ukraine, President Zelenskyy continues to insist that your country will not cede territory to Russia. But it does appear as if the areas of land lost in this war and in previous conflicts are potentially on the table here. It looks like it's impossible that a deal will be reached without those lands being given up. Is that something you think your country can come to terms with?

IKT: Would Canada agree to give up any of their territories if someone was attacking Canada? I don't think so. I don't think that any European nation would be ready to do that. If we do care about the international law, if we do care about the it will still stick to the principle that international borders can be re-drawn by force and military might. Because if we do agree to all of that, that means that we will ensure that we are ready to fight wars in Europe and in the future from the Russian Federation, fight wars in the Indo-Pacific and other parts of the globe, and forget about any peace, and prosperity, and development for the time being.

HM: Ms. Klympush-Tsintsadze, thank you so much for giving us your time today. I really appreciate it.

IKT: Thank you, Helen. Thank you.

CH: That was Ukrainian member of parliament Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze. We reached her on a train from Warsaw to Kyiv.

[funky instrumental]

Columbine Survivor Obit

Guest: Frank DeAngelis

CH: Anne Marie Hochhalter didn't call herself a victim of the 1999 shooting at Columbine High School. She called herself a survivor. Ms. Hochlater was 17 years old, when she was shot twice, and paralyzed from the waist down. Here she is in 2009, reflecting on the day's events and how they changed her.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNE MARIE HOCHHALTER: That day started out as any other day. I went to class in the morning, met up with my friends, and we decided to sit outside for lunch because that was the first nice day in April. Before I was injured, I was a very, very, very shy person. It forced me to come out of my shell. I think now, on the, on the other side of what happened to me, I gained faith.

CH: That's Anne Marie Hochhalter, speaking on the 10th anniversary of the Columbine High School shooting. Ms. Hochhalter died earlier this week at her home. She was 43 years old. Frank DeAngelis was the principal at Columbine High School in 1999. He's a friend of Ms. Hochhalter and her family. We reached him in Arvada, Colorado.

HM: Frank, I'm very sorry for your loss.

FRANK DEANGELIS: Thank you so much. It's tough. She'll always be one of my kids.

HM: Yeah, I can well imagine. How well did you know Anne Marie before the shooting?

FD: Very well. Anne Marie was an outstanding student. She just was phenomenal. She was in our marching band. She played the clarinet. Just someone who cared very much about all the other kids. She was one of the four that was critically injured on that day. And I can remember her being transported to the hospital, and not sure of what exactly was going to happen. But once she survived those wounds, they moved her to Craig Hospital, which was a rehab center. And I used to go visit her along with the other three that were critically injured. And she was an inspiration to me and so many others because even though she had lost, you know, the use of her legs, she never gave up hope. She was really just a great inspiration.

HM: Can you, can you share some of the things you talked about at that time? It had to have been such a shock for her to be facing this new life.

FD: It was, you know? And I would bring her friends to visit with her and things of that nature. And, you know, she was a junior at the time that the shooting happened. And, you know, her, and Patrick was also a junior. And I said, I look forward to when they returned to Columbine High School. She provided hope for everyone. And whenever I talked to her, she said, I'm not a victim. I'm a survivor. And just the inspiration that she offered, and I could remember when we returned to Columbine, and she did spend some time down at Columbine, but she was also at home where there was home care for her. But I can remember her, and I'm thinking it was our homecoming parade that she was with the marching band in her wheelchair participating. And never gave up hope. Unfortunately, it was six months after that her mom died on that day, and I had to break the news to her brother, Nathan, who's her younger brother, and also to Anne Marie. So, some tough times.

HM: Yeah. Let me just ask a little bit about that. Because, you know, the fact that Anne Marie was a victim of gun violence, and then her mother, who had suffered from severe depression, took her own life using a gun, it was an incredible amount for her to deal with at that time. She was just early in her own recovery.

FD: Right. It was very difficult. I remember sitting in my office, and a detective comes in, says, We need to talk. And I said, What's going on? And he said, You need to go get Nathan, because Nathan was in school that day. And he told me what we had to do. And I can remember riding with Nathan up to the Hochhalter's home because Anne Marie was up there and Nathan kept saying, Mr. D, what's going on? And I remember going up there, and, unfortunately, having to share the news to Anne Marie and Nathan, that her mom, their mom, had died. And that's something that just will stick with me for the rest of my life. And I know recently when I had to do the same thing, when I found out about Anne Marie having to call Nathan to tell him his sister died, very difficult. And Anne Marie had to just go through so much in, you know, the past, it'll be 26 years just because of all the surgeries and things. And it's been so much. She's lived in so much physical pain, but she's provided so much inspiration for all of us.

HM: We've seen a number of survivors of, of gun violence, school, gun violence in particular, turn into activists, proponents of gun control. Did Anne Marie take that on?

FD: Anne Marie reached out. Unfortunately, in Colorado, we've had our share of gun. Violence. We had the Aurora theatre shooting, and I know she was there to support the victims. Anne Marie would join me several times to reach out and give her perspective from a school student's voice.

HM: I understand you saw Anne Marie a year ago at the 25th anniversary of the Columbine shooting. Can you tell me about that, that time, and the time you spent together, and the conversation you had?

FD: We, it was last year, the 25-year remembrance. And she was there and her brother was there. And most of the time when I, you know, Anne Marie and I contacted it'd through text or through Facebook and things of that nature. And to see her there, and just give her a hug, and it was, it was hard to believe because I was at that event. And what really hit hard for me is when one of the parents who lost their child said, My daughter would be 43 this year. And I'm thinking Anne Marie was 42 last year. And all I kept thinking about is that's what I was when the tragedy happened. And these kids are now no longer kids, even though they'll be my kids for the rest of my life. They're adults. And Anne Marie's brother Nathan got up there and talked about his journey with his sister and everything he went through and other family members. Tom Mauser, whose son Daniel was killed there, spoke on behalf of Daniel and the others that lost their lives. And Anne Marie was part of that. It was just a night that was very, I came up with a phrase that said a time to remember and a time for hope. We'll never forget the 13 who lost their lives and now Anne Marie. But Columbine also represents hope, and that's what Anne Marie represents, represented.

HM: You mentioned that she had had multiple surgeries over the years and had been dealing with a lot of pain as a result of her injuries. Were you aware that, that her health was failing? Did her death come as a surprise to you?

FD: It did come to a surprise. She posted something on Facebook within the last month just stating that she had some sores and things that were really creating a lot of pain. And, at this point, we're waiting to get the final report from the coroners to find out exactly what was the cause of death. But I know over the years she's had multiple surgeries to deal with what, you know, what happened on that April 20th from the gunshot wounds that she received.

HM: Frank, thank you so much. I really appreciate this conversation with you. It's, again, I'm sorry for your loss. I'm glad you're comforted by some of those memories.

FD: Thank you so much.

HM: Bye-bye.

FD: Bye.

CH: Frank DeAngelis is the former principal at Columbine High School. Anne Marie Hochhalter was his student there, and survived the 1999 school shooting. She died earlier this week at the age of 43.

[sombre instrumental]

Argentina Crypto

Guest: Facundo Iglesia

CH: Every time there's a story about a cryptocurrency memecoin, we have no idea what happened, because we can never remember what that is. So, we do some research and find that it's a kind of cryptocurrency that goes extremely viral, thanks to a few high-profile investors. People rush to buy into it. Then it crashes, millions of dollars are lost, and someone is accused of fraud. That is pretty much the gist of what just happened in Argentina. The crypto coin at issue is called Libra. And the high-profile promoter happens to be the president of the country, Javier Milei -- the anarcho-capitalist strongman known for wielding chainsaws onstage. Facundo Iglesia is a reporter with the Buenos Aires Herald. We reached him in Buenos Aires.

HM: Facundo Just how much money have people lost on this crypto coin Libra?

FACUNDO IGLESIA: Well, estimates are in the millions, but, like, the total market capitalization of the coin was $4.5 billion. So, I would say, yeah, the estimate of how much people have lost is in the millions, for sure.

HM: That is a lot of money.

FI: It is. It is.

HM: So, this all started on Friday. It involved a post on X by President Milei. What did the post actually say?

FI: The post said that he was presenting to the public a new crypto token called Libra. It was unknown until then. And he said the token was dedicated to boosting the growth of the Argentine economy by funding small businesses. So, it was not presented as a meme coin. It was presented as a project to help the Argentine economy. So, yeah.

HM: And what effect did that have when he did that? I mean, how much did the coin's value change?

FI: Well, the coin was launched around, like, three or five minutes before Milei made that post. And it was worth, of course, nothing, or a little more than nothing. And, yeah. Then, in less than an hour, it was worth $5. Because around 40,000 people invested money in it. The effect was immediate, right? The crypto soared. But the thing is, around 40 minutes after it was launched, the first users who had bought it started to sell it. That prompted a collapse in its price. And first, it was worth, like, from $5, it was worth then, like, $1. And then, less. And then, close to nothing.

HM: Well, this is described as a rug pull. What does that mean?

FI: That means a scheme where in this case, around five people held around 75 per cent of the tokens, right? So, what they did was cashing out after the value was inflated. Insiders sold their stake and made the tokens worthless for the majority of investors.

HM: Wow! So, so, President Milei is now being accused of fraud because he promoted this cryptocurrency even though he says he wasn't promoting it. There's this court challenge. A judge has to decide whether he might even face criminal charges. We know he is denying wrongdoing. Have you seen evidence that President Milei had any involvement with this company or the scheme?

FI: The thing is, Milei went, after the crypto crashed on Friday, he deleted the original post, and said he was not aware of the details of the project, and that he was not involved in it. But the thing is, after that, the day after that, on Saturday, an official communique by the president's office revealed something that we already knew. That was that Milei had met with the people behind Libra, right? And he had spoken to them about the project. And the thing is, just like an hour ago, a website which is specialized in crypto trade said that Hayden Davis , who, as I told you, met with Milei. He claimed that he paid the Argentinean president's sister, that is Carina Milei, who is the, who is the president's secretary general, to promote the scheme. He said that Carina Milei, who the president's sister, did whatever he wanted to. Those are his words.

HM: In defending himself, President Milei has sort of implied people should know that crypto is risky. He said it's like playing Russian Roulette and getting the bullet.

FI: Yeah.

HM: How is that going over in Argentina?

FI: Not well. That interview was not well-received. And the thing is, he also compared it to a casino. And he said that he didn't post it as, as the head of state. But he did post it as regular citizen, right? So, but he's still the president, so his defence is not, is not very solid. He was in damage control mode, and he still is.

HM: He has survived lots of political storms, we will say, since he's been in office. Can he survive this one?

FI: This is the worst one yet. Every time something happens, he has been able to spin it to his favour. For example, he made severe cuts to the university funding. And he somewhat extolled the idea that universities are corrupt, and woke, and whatnot, right? But this thing goes straight to his main asset, which is his credibility. He stands as a, I would say, an outsider who is not corrupt, who doesn't steal. And, yeah, this is a very, very difficult situation for him.

HM: Facundo, thank you so much. It's a, it's a fascinating story. I'll try to keep an eye on it.

FI: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It is fascinating. And everyone in Argentina is, like, on Twitter or on X all day long because there are news coming by the hour.

HM: I bet. All right. Good to talk to you. Thanks so much.

FI: Thank you.

CH: Facundo Iglesia is a reporter with the Buenos Aires Herald. He's in Buenos Aires.

[chip tune]

Brick Collector

SOUNDCLIP

CLEM REINKEMEYER: One of my favourite bricks.

CH: Sorry, can you stop the tape for a second? You may be wondering who starts a sentence like that. Well, I'll tell you who starts a sentence like that, A Guinness World Record-holder. That's who. Okay, go ahead.

SOUNDCLIP

CLEM REINKEMEYER: One of my favourite bricks.

CH: I mean, look, Sorry. Sorry to interrupt again. I mean, I have never said the phrase "one of my favourite bricks". But I don't have a favourite brick, let alone a bunch of favourite bricks that one particular favourite brick could be one of. Do you? It's great if you do. And if you do, maybe one day you will surpass Clem Reinkemeyer.

SOUNDCLIP

CLEM REINKEMEYER: One of my favourite bricks.

CH: Sorry, last interruption: that's the voice of Clem Reinkemeyer. He's an 87-year-old Oklahoma man who has assembled a collection of 8,882 unique bricks. His family went into his barn and counted them, and told the people at Guinness, and now -- to his surprise -- Mr. Reinkemeyer has himself a brick world record. Here he is describing one of his favourite bricks.

SOUNDCLIP

CLEM REINKEMEYER: One of my favourite bricks, we don’t know where it’s from. But this is a sidewalk brick. And this is a brick that they used, we think it was made in Washington, D.C. And the only brick maker in Washington, D.C. ever was where The Pentagon is now. So, there may be some of these under The Pentagon. But I think that this is one-of-a-kind.

CH: The audio quality was not great there, but he says he thinks it's one-of-a-kind. And, you know, that seems to apply to the majority of his nearly 9,000 bricks. We all wonder what starts someone building a Guinness-quality brick collection brick by brick. Well, Clem Reinkemeyer says he likes bricks because they have names and you can trace their histories. Fair enough. Look, who among us can fully explain why we love what we love? And if that explanation isn't good enough for you, you can hit the bricks.

[hip-hop]

Part 2: Canada/U.S. Security, Louisiana Vaccinations

Canada/U.S. Security

Guest: Andrew Leslie

CH: Canada's foreign affairs minister says she's alerted our European allies about the threat U.S. President Donald Trump poses to Canada. Melanie Joly was in Brussels today, where she was asked why longtime allies haven't spoken out against Mr. Trump's talk about Canada becoming the 51st state.

SOUNDCLIP

MELANIE JOLY: Based on my conversations with many European colleagues, many of them are not necessarily completely aware of what is going on, first in the US, and second, in Canada. And Europe has its own challenges. We have had very productive meetings over the past week. It was necessary for me to be in Europe to tell them exact what's going on, to make sure that we would coordinate on any form of response to tariffs. And that we would be together defending our national security and sovereignty. And in that context, I think that it was a wake-up call for Europeans to hear what we're going through.

CH: Canada's minister of foreign affairs, Melanie Joly, speaking in Brussels. Andrew Leslie is a former Liberal MP and a retired lieutenant general in the Canadian Forces. We reached him in Ottawa.

HM: Andrew Leslie, what do you make of the foreign affairs minister saying that she had to give Canada's European colleagues a wake-up call about the threat that Donald Trump poses to this country?

ANDREW LESLIE: Well, I think that's an interesting interpretation of events. I believe that President Trump's comments vis-a-vis Canada have been broadcast internationally now for some weeks. And, indeed, some of the key themes of those messages, of those recent messages have, been announced by him over the last several months. And, indeed, certain of the issues, for example, our laggardly defence spending, or weakness on the borders has been also mentioned by his predecessor.

HM: We haven't, though, heard that much from other leaders about these threats to Canada. Why do you think they have been so slow to, to say things publicly about, about the demands he is making?

AL: Well, I won't presume to speak for them, but I'm certainly, you know, willing to offer an opinion. And maybe it's because some of them, for example, the defence spending one, there's really no defence of Canada vis-a-vis its laggardly defence spending.

HM: One of your former Canadian Forces colleagues, retired Vice-Admiral Mark Norman wrote over the weekend, I quote, We are under attack. And more significantly, so too, is the global system. What do you say to, to his argument that Donald Trump represents an existential threat to Canada?

AL: Well, if I had a magic wand, I'd like to see the rhetoric around the Canada-U.S. relationship focused on some concrete facts. And my interpretation of some of the facts is that for a couple of years now, senior political figures in the United States have pointed out that Canada has not spent enough on defence. It hasn't provided enough output, I.E. highly-trained crews, tanks, guns, ships, planes, submarines, the list goes on, with which to meet its defence obligations, not only in terms of defending itself, but contributing to the defence of the NATO Alliance. The second issue is the one of borders. And the Canada-U.S. border has been, perhaps not as much as Mexico, but we have still seen the borders be relatively porous, and people are getting across who shouldn't get across down into the United States. And many pounds of fentanyl are getting in there and causing an untold number of American deaths. And that's not acceptable. So, we have to do better on those two issues. And the third issue to be talking about is the trade imbalance. Okay, let's talk about these three issues. Let's see how can can help remediate some of them, but keep the dialog going.

HM: When you hear President Trump repeatedly say Canada should be absorbed into the United States and become the 51st state, what do you hear?

AL: I hear someone who's used to getting his own way, who has written a small book on the art of the deal, and he's negotiating. He's coming in with an extreme high. He wants to see a logical counterproposal, I think. And I don't think there's any yet.

HM: So, when you hear Prime Minister Trudeau iterate that the U.S. president really does want to take over Canada, have us absorbed into his country, what are you thinking that his strategy is?

AL: I think the prime minister, the current prime minister of Canada, saw his position in the polls literally plummeting down like the submarines that we don't necessarily have plummeting to the bottom of the ocean. And this is a godsend for him because it acts essentially as a galvanizing factor to most Canadians sitting at home, not understanding some of the nuances of what the Americans might be asking for. Wrapping ourselves in the flag and voting for the current government. That's what I think is happening. Never, never waste a good crisis. And that's what's going on.

HM: The rhetoric that Donald Trump is using, though, it hardly sounds like nuance to many of us.

AL: Well, I was involved in the previous NAFTA negotiations, and President Trump really hasn't changed. That's how he always talks, quite frankly, in my limited experience. So, why are we surprised? Deep down, does anybody actually out there believe that a Republican president wants 41 million Canadians, who are more often than not likely to vote for Republicans, question mark. And the answer is no.

HM: Earlier this month, you let your support on social media for Pierre Poilievre

and the Conservatives' plan to send armed forces troops and also helicopters to the border. Is that a sign of where your political support now lies?

AL: Well, it's a sign that I'd like to see system improvement on defence and security, vis-a-vis our relationship with the United States, and our contributions that we've been promising for 10 years now to NATO, which we have not met. So, I'm suggesting, actually, Mr. Poilievre was

suggesting, and I support the idea of, as a show of good faith, send a couple of thousand Canadian troops to assist. We've established societies along our border essentially as a show of goodwill. Is that militarizing the border? Of course not. Would they only be there until such time as the 10,000 that were promised actually show up trained and ready to go, which could be a couple of years? Yeah. Is it logical to do it now? Of course it is.

HM: I have to ask, would you consider running for the Conservatives?

AL: No. I've had the pleasure, the honour, of being elected by the people of Orléans. I'm glad I ran. I'm glad I won. I'm glad I left.

HM: Andrew Leslie, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

AL: My pleasure.

CH: Andrew Leslie is a former Liberal MP and a retired lieutenant general in the Canadian Forces. We reached him in Ottawa.

[newsy theme]

U.S. Students in NL

CH: Since last Wednesday, a group of Grade 8 students from Oklahoma have been trying to get to Dublin for a school trip. First, there was a delay that caused a missed flight. Then, a medical emergency on their next flight forced an unexpected landing -- and weather has kept them grounded ever since. But luckily, that unexpected landing was in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, a place that knows how to make stranded travellers feel at home. So what started off as a major bummer for the students -- stuck in a place some say they didn't know existed -- has turned into a great adventure, that even included a curling lesson from Olympic gold medallist Jamie Korab. Nick Brown is the principal of Jenks Middle School in Jenks, Oklahoma, a suburb of Tulsa. He's chaperoning the group.

SOUNDCLIP

NICK BROWN: We're really looking at it as a bonus. We thought we were just going to get to go spend some time in Ireland, but we've been in Newfoundland. And now, we're going to go to Ireland, and maybe we'll be able to tell the other students who are in Ireland, half of our group did make it to Ireland. And so, we'll be able to tell them about our experiences here.

ABBY COLE: Tell me a bit about what you've been doing while you've been here. I know you went to Cape Speer, The Rooms.

NB: Yeah, so we went to several different places. We've seen some, some fishing villages. We went to The Rooms, which was a world-class museum. Our students were really excited about that. They, they spent several hours there, actually. And so, I was, I was impressed with The Rooms. We were going to the basilica after we leave here. But these students got to try curling today. And they've, they've never tried curling. It's not really a large sport where we're from in the southern part of the United States. So, it's really, really fun.

AC: And tell me about the curling really quick. Like, you're, you got to try out curling with the Olympic gold medalist. How has that been?

NB: [chuckling] That's definitely been exciting. Nothing that we ever expected. Some of the students that I thought would really be good at curling struggled more than the students that I thought would have, would have a hard time with it. So, it's fun to watch kids try new things and maybe even discover that this is something that they like. So, there may be an Olympic curler from Jenks, Oklahoma in our future that we don't even know about right now.

AC: [chuckling] Yeah. Yeah. And the weather hasn't been great the past couple of days here in Newfoundland. Have you guys been holding up fine?

NB: We're doing okay. We did not come prepared for this weather, that's for sure. And so, while we're not really prepared for it, it's also kind of fun because it's something that we don't get to experience very often. And kids are making snowballs and throwing them at each other. And, but we definitely are not spending a lot of time outside. Like, one of our students just has a pair of slide shoes with open toes and socks that he's been wearing around the last couple of days. [AC chuckles] We are so impressed with the hospitality of the people here. Newfoundland is, is beautiful. And we thank everybody who has given us hospitality and has kind of housed us for the last 48 hours. And this will be something that these kids will remember the rest of their lives.

CH: Nick Brown is a middle school principal and chaperone for a group of Grade 8 students from Oklahoma who got stranded in St. John's on their way to Dublin. He was talking to the CBC's Abby Cole.

[lounge jazz]

Louisiana Vaccinations

Guest: Jennifer Avegno

CH: The past four weeks have been stressful for public health experts and doctors in the U.S. But last Thursday, their stress shot up to dangerous new levels. That's when longtime vaccine skeptic Robert F. Kennedy Jr was sworn in as President Donald Trump’s health secretary. And on the same day, Louisiana's surgeon general Ralph Abraham sent out an internal memo to staff saying the state's department of health would -- quote -- "no longer promote mass vaccination," unquote. He also released a letter that included criticism of COVID-19 vaccine mandates. Jennifer Avegno is pushing back. She's an emergency medicine physician and the director of the New Orleans Health Department. We reached her in New Orleans.

HM: Dr. Avegno, when you see RFK Jr.'s confirmation, and at the same time, these communications from your state on the very same day, what kind of hit does that make for someone like you who has gone to medical school?

JENNIFER AVEGNO: Well, it's really disheartening. Certainly, RFK Jr.'s views on vaccines and the misinformation and disinformation that accompanied them were not a secret. Our own state health department in the last year has been making very similar statements. And so, that was concerning to myself and my fellow colleagues in both medical and public health. But to have confirmation that our state agency would no longer be promoting vaccines, or doing mass vaccination events as we've done with them for many years, really was, was gut-wrenching.

HM: Now, this is the state doing this. You are with the New Orleans Health Department. Does this affect you in the decisions you make?

JA: Well, it affects us, certainly. But we are an independent local health department. We're the only local health department in the state. So, we are not subject to state directives. And we have already begun this past year to ramp up our vaccination outreach, and communications, and efforts just in anticipation of this. However, the way vaccines are generally funded in America is that most of the federal money goes to the states for distribution. So, if they choose not to spend it on activities that have promoted vaccinations in the past, then that means we all suffer because we don't have a real easy way to sort of pick up those resources and do it ourselves.

HM: The memo says, I'm going to just quote from, from what I'm seeing of this memo, It says, Rather than instructing individuals to receive any and all vaccines, LDH staff should communicate data regarding the reduced risk of disease, hospitalization, and death associated with the vaccine. And encourage individuals to discuss considerations for vaccination with their health care provider. The letter actually says what you need to do is meet people where they're at instead of telling them or strongly advising them to receive any and all vaccines. What is wrong with that approach in your mind?

JA: Well, I think, certainly, in any medical intervention, you want to know the risks and benefits. You want to be able to talk to a trusted health care professional about that. Many people don't necessarily have access to a primary care physician that they can talk to at length. But, again, we do want folks to be educated. What this does, though, is, is it casts doubt on something, on vaccinations which have time and time again be shown to be incredibly beneficial, not just to individuals and the community. And so, what it does is it really downplays the benefits of individual and mass vaccination for a wide range of disease. Yes, you should always have a conversation with a health care professional about whether a medical treatment is right for you. But we know that over the past century or more, childhood vaccinations in particular have significantly contributed to increased quality of life, increased life expectancy, and just the general overall health and reduced mortality in America. So, I think that's what gets lost, is that these are proven interventions that work, and that they should really be encouraged for an individual's health and that of their community.

HM: The state's memo, though, says that people should be educated to hear that childhood immunizations are an important part of providing immunity to our children. They say you need to distinguish between, say, flu vaccines, COVID vaccines, and the vaccines that we give our children. Does that provide any comfort to you that they're sort of separating these two issues?

JA: I think that what the public hears when they hear that vaccinations shouldn't be promoted, they don't necessarily distinguish between the flu shot and that tetanus shot, or the pertussis shot, or the measles shot. If the leading health authority isn't talking about all of them, then I think that there's a lot of confusion, and most people say, well, if they're not promoting one, then I probably don't need to get any of them.

HM: What is your sense of, of vaccine skepticism, say, in Louisiana? Is it something that is rife? It's something that's growing?

JA: Yeah, it definitely was present before COVID. I think like in much of America, it really accelerated during the COVID pandemic. And, again, you know, I am fully in favour of health care professionals being honest about what we know, what we don't know, any potential risk and benefit. Anybody that comes and says, well, you know, this is always the right thing to do, or science, you know, you know, is perfect, is wrong. But when we have evidence-based interventions, when we have good science, and that's being combated with lies and half-truths or, you know, misinformation, that's not a fair fight. And so, the more that misinformation or false information takes hold, it becomes much harder for the science and the evidence basis to really keep their ground. And I think we're seeing a lot of erosion of trust in science and the medical community in general because of it.

HM: How worried are you about what comes in the coming months and years?

JA: I'm pretty worried, as are many of my colleagues. You know, we've seen many of our physicians speaking out against this. It's no surprise that this year, Louisiana has led the nation in flu incidents for weeks and weeks and weeks, while our state health authority was casting doubt on whether somebody should get a flu vaccine, right? Those go hand-in-hand. And I'm a practicing emergency physician, so I know when we have a bad flu year, that means that our hospitals fill up with really sick people. That means that people who are coming in for things other than the flu have to wait to get a bed. It's a strain on the healthcare system. You know, I certainly don't want to see that happen season after season. And then, we've already seen two measles cases come through the city. If our vaccination rates for something like that drops even further, we're going to see more of those. And again, that's a burden on families, and schools, and our health care providers. All of these are largely preventable. And so, it really is concerning for a lot of us who practice here.

HM: Dr. Avegno, thank you very much for speaking with us.

JA: Thank you for having me.

CH: That was Jennifer Avegno, the director of the New Orleans Health Department.

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B.C. Avalanche Anniversary

CH: The mayor has called it one of the darkest moments in her community's history, and a reminder of the tremendous risk that comes with working in the rugged landscape of northern British Columbia. Today, the district of Stewart is commemorating 60 years since an avalanche hit a workers' camp in the area of the Granduc copper mine. Dozens of men were killed. Angela Brand Danuser is the mayor of Stewart.

SOUNDCLIP

ANGELA BRAND DANUSER: I couldn't even imagine. As a wife, my husband goes away to a camp as well, mining camp as well. I couldn't even imagine what those family members were going through. And, you know, interestingly, too, as we had, we reached out to a few people leading up to the anniversary, the 60th anniversary, And one of the people wrote it, wrote it back, and told us that she was only six months old when her, when her father died, and his brother died in an avalanche. And just last year, she came back to Stewart with her, one of her uncles to take a look at where, where, where the accident had happened. He was only 25. Her mother was only 20. And she said that it was very impactful to come and stand near the helicopter where they landed at the site, and look up at the steepness of the mountains, and just get a different perspective of just, you know, the enormous wall of snow that would have broken off and, you know, claimed all those lives. She said it was, it was very, very touching to be standing in the same spot that he maybe once stood.

BILL FEE: It gives you a sense of the scale of the disaster. Can you take us a little bit through that? You know, February 18th, 1965, to remind us?

ABD: Yeah, the, it was just about 16 minutes after 10 in the morning in 1964. So, some of the nightshift workers were already tucked in their beds. And, you know, the other ones were just starting, I think just after coffee break. And the Granduc portal camp was directly within the path of the Leduc Glacier slide. So, a massive wall of snow and ice and debris came barreling down on the portal camp. And over 100 workers were buried. And, you know, tragically, 26 men lost their lives. Rescue efforts lasted for about nine days. And, unfortunately, seven bodies were never found until the spring. They had to wait for the snow to melt. So, I can't even imagine. I'm sure the whole entire community, and province, and whole region would just be holding their breath, waiting to, you know, hopefully, hope that their, that everybody made it out safe. And tragically, 26 died.

CH: That was Angela Brand Danuser, the mayor of the District of Stewart, speaking with the CBC's Bill Fee -- guest host of Daybreak North. Her community is holding events this week to commemorate 60 years since a deadly avalanche near her town.

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Part 3: AI Publishers Lawsuit

AI Publishers Lawsuit

Guest: Danielle Coffey

CH: Artificial intelligence isn't just making headlines -- it's stealing them. At least, that's the accusation being made in a lawsuit against Canadian company Cohere. The Toronto Star, Forbes, and The New York Times are among 14 publications taking the AI company to court for copyright violation. They say the company is scraping articles without permission, and training AI models with their content -- essentially turning journalism into free fuel for big tech. Danielle Coffey is the CEO of News Media Alliance--which is spearheading the lawsuit. We reached Ms. Coffey in Washington, D.C.

HM: Danielle Coffey, I'd like to start with a quote from you. I'm just going to read it back. You say this is not an anti-AI lawsuit or an effort to turn back the clock. What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

DANIELLE COFFEY: So, that's right. Our newsrooms use technology every day because they've had to adjust to changing environments while maintaining their mission of producing quality content to communities and audiences across the country and around the world on issues that are critical to everyday lives. But in order to do that, we need to invest in people that report on those critical events. And that's a very expensive endeavor. And we rely on subscriptions and advertising revenue to be able to reinvest in the newsroom.

HM: You say that legitimate content is being used to train AI models like LLMs, large language models. Can you explain what exactly you are accusing cohere of doing?

DC: AI companies, including Cohere, vacuums up our content to train their LLMs and regurgitate with verbatim copies of our articles and summaries to replace the need to read the article in the first place, sometimes behind a paywall. Taken without our permission. And then, we're not able to generate the revenue to reinvest in newsrooms like I had just discussed.

HM: You also allege, as I understand it, that they might generate fake content and then attribute that to real news organizations.

DC: Correct. That's the second claim, which is hallucinations when it's created out of thin air. And it's misinformation and it's attributed to us. That's brand tarnishment.

HM: Can you walk us through some examples, some scenarios, that, that you say point to Cohere's copyright abuse?

DC: Yes, actually, we have several exhibits. The first is a very long list of thousands of articles that were taken to train or to give real time regurgitation of our content. And then, there's another exhibit that shows examples of verbatim uses of our content that's really a cut and paste down to the byline.

HM: You know, news organizations are used to something called fair use. It allows the limited use of copyrighted material without the copyright holder's permission. Where do you draw the line between fair use and copyright infringement?

DC: That's one of the biggest questions before the court. And so, the court then decides whether it was or was not a fair use to use it in the way the defendant is claiming. And they go through the four factors of the fair use test. And the two that really are highlighted, and in our favour, are whether it serves the same purpose. And in this case, the user's demand was completely satisfied [chuckling] by giving them the article or summary. There's no need for the original work. And then, the other piece is whether there was a market harm. And in our case, there's a significant market harm. We have analogous and existing licensing markets for the types of works as were used by the defendant here, Cohere. So, I believe we have a very strong case against a finding of fair use.

HM: Is it clear that news sites are actually losing audiences or readers to AI? Or is this just a fear and something you're, you're trying to prevent?

DC: No, this is very real. I mean, over many years, our content has been distributed by various technologies, whether it's Google, Meta. And in this case, we've had diminishing return on our side of the equation over the years. Where it once may have been a fair value exchange, it no longer is because the traffic doesn't nearly satisfy the revenue we should be generating through subscriptions and advertising. And then AI is an exacerbation of that existing problem in that our content is used with, in this case, zero return.

HM: The Toronto Star is the only Canadian news organization taking part in your lawsuit. But The Star has also joined The Globe and Mail and our organization, CBC, in filing a similar lawsuit against OpenAI. If what you're saying is true, and the AI companies are indeed undermining the value of journalism, what does that say about the future of the profession? What does it look like to you?

DC: So, that's a good question because I think about it every day. Our industry is incredibly resilient. A lot of our publications have gone digital because that is how people consume news. The drastic problem today is the marketplace is broken. There is no way that we can get the return that we need to employ journalists, which is why in the U.S., two newspapers are closing every week. And it's in critical areas, and it's critical coverage of communities that no one else will replace. And that's damaging and harmful to society in a way that may be irreversible if we don't address the broken marketplace so that these publications can continue to survive. And then, eventually what I believe can happen is they will thrive. We just need to change the trajectory of so many years of this harm that's been incurred by our industry.

HM: The speed of the AI marketplace is incredible, really, when you see how quickly things are moving. At the same time, you've acknowledged that courts move slowly, and we're seeing, you know, questions about how quickly governments are willing to, to push legislation. Canada, for example, is lagging behind other G7 countries when it comes to regulation. A bill that was in the works died when Parliament was prorogued recently. So, if courts and governments don't move quickly on this issue, in broader terms, what's at risk?

DC: I'm, you know, cautiously optimistic because of what I'm seeing with my own eyes. There are business arrangements that a lot of my publications have made with the AI companies, and I believe that's based on a reliance and a recognition of the need for quality. They've stated we need this copyright protected content, and what goes in is what comes out. We can't have garbage in, garbage out. And so, I think that legal certainty will just further a healthy reliance on licensing and rules of the road that's good for a company, is actually, good for society, and obviously, good for us.

HM: Well, Danielle, we will, of course, be tracking the progress of your suit. Thank you very much for telling us about it.

DC: Thank you for having me on your show.

CH: Danielle Coffey is the CEO of News Media Alliance, that’s a firm leading the lawsuit against the AI company Cohere. We reached her in Washington, D.C. The allegations in the lawsuit have yet to be proven in court. And in a statement to media, a spokesperson for Cohere said the company has tried to mitigate the risk of intellectual property infringement and that it believes the lawsuit is - quote - "misguided and frivolous and expects this matter to be resolved in our favour" - unquote.

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Mini-Update: Leonard Peltier Release

CH: After nearly half a century in prison, Leonard Peltier is finally going home. This morning, the Native American activist walked out of a Florida prison. He didn't speak to reporters, but in a statement he said, quote, "They may have imprisoned me, but they never took my spirit.” Unquote. He will now return to his community on the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation in Belcourt, North Dakota, where he'll be confined to his home. He is 80 years old, and in poor health. In his final minutes as president, Joe Biden commuted the life sentence being served by the one-time American Indian Movement activist, for the murders of two FBI agents in the 1970s. Mr. Peltier has always maintained his innocence -- and over the years he gained the support of Nelson Mandela, Pope Francis, and James H. Reynolds, the former U.S. Attorney who led the prosecution during Mr. Peltier's appeal.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES H. REYNOLDS: Every president that I could I wrote to after the 30 years he'd been in, and I thought that was enough was enough.

NK: So, to, to see it happen, what did that mean to you?

JHR: I'm sorry to see that it happened to be in the last minutes of, of his presidency. But I'm glad that President Biden did it. And I'm sorry that the others didn't do it earlier, so that Leonard could have had some time at home and with his family.

NK: I believe you've never spoken to Leonard Peltier. Is there anything you would like to say? What would you say to him if you had the opportunity?

JHR: I'm sorry.

CH: From January, that was former U.S. Attorney James H. Reynolds speaking with Nil. Today, Leonard Peltier was released from prison. He'll spend the rest of his days in home confinement on the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation in North Dakota.

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MB Kilt Skate

CH: For once people weren't just asking what was under it -- but also, what was behind it. It's a valid question: what was behind the decisions of more than a dozen hardy men, who took to the frozen duck pond in Assiniboine Park in Winnipeg for the Great Canadian Kilt Skate. And what a sight it was, as the men proudly displayed their Scottish heritage, and whatever else, in a bracing windchill of almost minus-40. Dwight MacAulay is the President of the St. Andrew's Society of Winnipeg. He talked to CBC Manitoba reporter Gavin Axelrod.

DWIGHT MACAUlAY: This skate has become an annual thing for the local St. Andrew Society of Winnipeg. We are in keeping with a lot of other Scottish organizations across Canada. We have had these kilt skates going for several years. We actually won the Great Canadian Kilt Skate, which is what this is part of in 2021 and 2023, two years apart. So, 2025, so we're hoping that this will be, this will be our year to win the, the kilt skate again. We were hoping for a bit warmer weather, but that's just the way it goes. It's great.

GAVIN AXELROD: What do you think it says about Manitobans that all these people are out here showing some pride and kilts, like with no, no, no long johns or anything.

DM: I know, what it says about Manitobans as we are a hearty group of people. We really are. We don't mind celebrating winter. This is just one way of doing it. And this is just gives us a chance to spread a little Scottish culture, maybe a little Scottish heritage, if you will, in the month of February. You know, I've got a kilt on. Lots of people here have kilts on, and, and good on them. We're just happy to be out here and having a good time. Quite frankly, given the weather, I'm really surprised, but pleasantly surprised, I think. I think it's great.

GA: Do you get anything if you win, or?

DM: Well, we get bragging rights, I guess, if we win the kilt skate. That's, that's about it. But that's what we're hoping for. But, really, you know, it's just a great family event to come out and have fun on a relatively cool day. I think it's fantastic. It really is. It's just, it's heartwarming to see all the people come out. We have the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders here, and we have a lot of other people here in their kilts and with their skates on. Some don't have skates and they've got kilts on. It just, just says, you know, we're just, we're just out here to have a good time, and proud to be, have Scottish heritage.

CH: That was Dwight MacAulay, the President of the St. Andrew's Society of Winnipeg, talking to CBC Manitoba yesterday at the Great Canadian Kilt Skate.

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Encore: Tiny Artist

CH: His friends call him Microangelo. And with good reason: British artist David A. Lindon is a master of teeny-tiny painting and sculptures. Works that fit in the eye of a needle, or on the head of a pin, and cannot even be seen with the naked eye. Mr. Lindon has just been certified by Guinness World Records as the creator of the world's smallest hand-made sculpture. A Lego-style building brick that measures 0-point-zero-two-five-one-seven millimetres by zero-point-zero-two-one-eight-four millimetres. Yes, exactly, that is about the size of a white blood cell. In July of 2023, David A. Lindon talked to Nil about what drew him to the surprisingly big job of making tiny art.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: David, why is making the tiniest of art so appealing to you?

DAVID A. LINDEN: Well, I love the challenge. I love sitting down at a microscope and creating art. I love creating something which, if it was full-size, it's a good piece of art, but I like to shrink it down and put it into the eye of a needle. And it's just doubly interesting.

NK: It sounds interesting, but painful, no?

DAL: Yes. Oh, it's really hard to do. It takes a very, very long time. And the problem is, because it's so tiny, you can lose it with a cough or sneeze. Static electricity can reach out like a little hand and pull the art away. And once it disappears from underneath the microscope, I'll probably never see it again.

NK: And you sound like a man who has experienced this more than once, this kind of loss.

DAL: [chuckle] I have, especially when I was learning how to create the art. I could spend months and months making something, and right at the last minute, it can disappear. And I was making a little spider. [takes a breath] I just breathed in a little bit too hard, and it disappeared. [NK chuckles] Where did it go? I think it went up my nose! It disappeared. Crazy.

NK: [laughing] Is that as disconcerting and upsetting as an actual bug?

DAL: Oh, well, it's even worse because I've spent such a long time working on it. It's heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. I did, have created a Picasso, actually, the "Weeping Woman". And this is a fantastic piece of art. Lots of colours and squares and shapes. And I was working on this, and it's taken me about two months to create, and then my hands twitched a slight twitch, and I ripped this painting into several pieces. I had the world's most expensive jigsaw in front of me under the microscope. I could have cried. I was mortified. I was so upset with myself. But the most of it, I could still see under the microscope. So I was able to stitch it back together like a surgeon. I've even falling asleep at the microscope.

NK: You had a lot of successes, though, too. Little twitch, as you said. A little cough or sneeze. Your portfolio includes a pair of swans in the eye of a needle. Banksy's "Love Rat", also in the eye of a needle. SpongeBob SquarePants on the head of a pin. You know, what was the first thing that got you into this?

DAL: Well, I've always been interested in art, and I have an engineering background. And back in, I think, it's 2019, I saw a TV program about a couple of artists who made small pieces of art. And I just thought in the middle of the night, I woke up, I think I can do that. How small can I go? And I thought, I wonder if I can get that into the eye of a needle? And then, I spent the next couple of years working out what materials to use, what microscopes to use, and I put in the practice, practice and practice. But I work mainly at night because of the vibrations and noises of the passing traffic.

NK: Oh, you need to give me total silence. But like all great artists, you have, you have a creative name that your friends and family have given you, as I understand it. Do you want to share that with our listeners?

DAL: [chuckling] Microangelo.

NK: Of course. Yes.

DAL: Yeah, it's fine. I, yeah, I'm very happy to talk to anybody about my art. I love showing people what I do. I mean, you know, it's available to, to, to, to buy -- hammondgalleries.com. So, yeah, I love what I do. And the more people I talk to about it, the better. I use special tools. I've got, I've got little tools. These are all handmade. So, I make special bespoke tools for each piece of art that I create, from, from paint brushes to chisels, even drills. But they keep breaking, so I have to keep remaking my tools, which is quite, quite difficult.

NK: And what about the paint? Is, is it regular paint or do you have to use a special kind of paint as well?

DAL: Well, I use of a veriety of materials because I do sculptures as well as paintings. So, it's quite a variety of things from, from kevlar strands to the carpet fibres, even pieces of ceramic. And the gold frames that the pictures are set in are actually, they're actually made from gold. They are the 24-carat gold frames. I use gemstones as well when I can to help add to the interest of the art.

NK: Do you get headaches? Do your eyes hurt?

DAL: My fingers hurt because when I sit at the microscope at night, I rest my arms and I squeeze my fingers together quite hard to hold my, my special tools. And I try and stop my fingers from twitching. And I can, I slow my heartbeat down, which luckily I'm able to do quite, quite efficiently now. But my hands still, still twitch a little, so I squeeze my fingers together quite hard. But I almost work between heartbeats. I have to wait and work between the rhythm of the way my hand twitches. I have to work between heartbeats. That's quite, quite a hard thing to do.

NK: Well, you seem like a very energetic person. So, how do you turn that off?

DAL: Well, what I do, I jump on the treadmill, and the cross trainer, and I make sure I'm --

NK: You train to be able to art.

DAL: I have to go, I have to go and really build up a sweat in order to, to concentrate and hunker down and control every emotion, every fibre, every nerve of my body.

NK: It's like Olympic training.

DAL: It is, yes.

NK: What's your next masterpiece?

DAL: The next one, I'm working on the Golden Temple of Amritsar. That's a secret. Don't tell anybody. [NK chuckles] But that's what I'm working on at the moment. But I've got a list of art to do. But that's not the problem. I've got lots of art I want to create, but it takes such a long time to make the art that I probably got enough, enough ideas for the next 20, 30 years.

CH: From Our Archives, that was Nil's conversation with British micro artist David A. Lindon. Guinness has just certified Mr. Lindon as the creator of the world's smallest hand-made sculpture.

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Calgary Dodgeball

CH: It's an event the very name of which strikes fear in the hearts of everyone who ever played the game -- including those of us who haven't played it for decades, and wouldn't play it again for $14 million: the World Youth Dodgeball open. This week, young dodgeballers ages nine to 17 are gathering in Calgary for the inaugural tournament, in which they will test their throwing arms, and their abilities not to cry, against their peers from around the world. Duane Wysynski is the president of the World Dodgeball Federation. He joined Italian player Filippo Ricci on The Calgary Eyeopener to talk about how the tournament came to be.

SOUNDCLIP

DUANE WYSYNSKI: We had long wanted to kind of do junior and youth events, and this started off with a phone call from a club in in Great Britain who reached out to me and just said, hey, could we do a friendly? Like, could we bring a bunch of athletes to Canada and just play with some of your kids and do something for fun? And, you know, word got around, and all of a sudden, Mexico and Hong Kong and Italy were saying, well, we kind of want to do that, too. And so, we held this event, which is a youth open. So, it's not necessarily based on national teams. It's more about clubs, which is why we have a club from Regina, we've got one from Calgary, we got one from Winnipeg, from Canada.

ANGELA KNIGHT: It is incredible to see all of these teams coming, like so many international teams. Is dodgeball obviously this popular everywhere around the world?

DW: Yeah, it is. I mean, most people listening, you know, you've played dodgeball at some level of your childhood. And I mean, that experience is shared internationally. You know? Any country we talk to, you know, maybe it wasn't the dodgeball we're used to, but some form of dodgeball, some form of throwing, and catching, and trying to get the opponent out is played in countries all over the world. We find that the sport's grown a lot in countries where they have more economic challenges for sport. And unlike something like, you know, we love downhill skiing, and as Canadians, we love hockey. But those sports require quite a bit of capital and a bit of infrastructure. With dodgeball, you know, we can send a crate of balls, and they can play on the beach, or they can play in a field, or they can play on a court or whatever is accessible to them. And that has not been a barrier like it sometimes is in other sports.

AK: Okay. So, we have all of these international teams here, but how how do we stack up in Alberta against the competition?

DW: Well, I mean, we'll, we'll see what happens this weekend. [everyone laughs]

LOREN MCGINNIS: We'll know in a few days!

DW: I think, I mean, at the international level, kind of at the at the senior level, Canada is the top-ranked country in the world on the foam side. But at the, at the youth level, Canada's is still kind of coming along. We're still developing. They've got a great program in Regina, but in, in Hong Kong, and in Italy, and in Malaysia, like, they've been doing youth dodgeball for a long, long time. So, it might be a bit of a learning experience. I guess we'll see.

AK: All right. Well, let's, let's talk with Filippo, who's here from Italy. Filippo, are you happy we're not outside this morning?

FILIPPO RICCI: Yeah. Yeah, I'm happy. It's too cold outside.

AK: [laughing] How did you get into dodgeball?

FR: From a friend. A friend told me to play dodgeball because he liked it. And I, I, when I was younger, I used to play dodgeball at school, and I was a pretty good. So, and I think I'm, I'm not bad.

AK: So, when you say you're not bad, do you mean you're great at this?

FR: I don't know. [all laugh] We're going to see. We're going to see.

AK: All right.

CH: That was Duane Wysynski, president of the World Dodgeball Federation, and Italian player Filippo Ricci, talking to Loren McGinnis and Angela Knight on The Calgary Eyeopener today.

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FOA: GigaPearl Owner

CH: Over the long weekend, for the first time in years, a one-of-a-kind gem was displayed front and centre at a luxury art exhibit in Toronto. And it is a true gem of a gem: a giant pearl called the "GigaPearl" -- the world's largest authenticated natural pearl. It weighs nearly 28 kilos -- which is 61 pounds. And you can see it in the exhibit, along with other precious jewels and gemstones, only by private appointment. The GigaPearl is a family heirloom, which was unveiled by artist Abraham Reyes -- who inherited it in 2019, bringing it home from the Philippines to Mississauga, Ontario. Mr. Reyes spoke to As It Happens after he unveiled this giant nacreous wonder to the world. Here's part of that conversation with guest host Megan Williams:

SOUNDCLIP

ABRAHAM REYES: I want to share it to the public. I want to have it exhibited because I find that, you know, it has an environmental importance as well as a historical importance.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: How so?

AR: Because pearls are indicator and barometers of our oceans' health, and they can only grow and thrive in pristine and perfect water temperatures. So if the ocean does not produce pearl anymore, our world will be in trouble. And pearls are also a reflection of our delicate ecosystem.

MW: And along with the environmental and the historic worth of the pearl, how much is it actually worth in terms of money?

AR: For me, like, it's priceless. We've been trying to answer that question because there's in terms of the size, there is no comparable. The analysis for authentication, I went to the Gemological Institute of America. But for appraisals, I went to jewelers in New York, and as well as in Hong Kong. And it's totally different the valuation they would give me. The most conservative one I got was $60 to $90 million. Hong Kong gave me $150 million. New York did not want to comment because they said that since there is no precedent in this size, it's really hard to value.

MW: Now, that's a lot of money. How, how are you keeping it safe? I mean, I think, you know, a lot of people, if they had a pearl of

that value, would be very worried about it being stolen.

AR: When I first brought it to Canada, it stayed with me in our home for about a month. And then, we decided to put it in the vault.

MW: At home?

AR: No, not at home. So, it's an undisclosed area, unfortunately, that one I can't disclose because it's still in that same vault. [both laugh]

MW: How did your family come to possess the Pearl in the first place?

AR: So, it came from the island, it's a southern island in the Philippines, close to Mindanao. The pearl still attached to its clam. My grandfather gave it to my aunt in Manila. And this was in 1959. And then my aunt, she had it for all these years until 2016 when she requested it to me.

MW: How soon did your family discover that the clam contained such a treasure?

AR: So, my family, like even my grandfather, were not aware that it's a pearl because the family traditionally, like I said, the pearl. For them, it's round, it's shiny. It's only in 2016, when I brought it to Canada and officially had it tested with the GIA, that's when we knew it was officially a pearl.

CH: That was Abraham Reyes, owner of the GigaPearl, talking to Megan Williams on As It Happens in 2019.

The AIH Transcript For February 18, 2025

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