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The AIH transcript for February 17, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

HM: Taken by storm -- almost. When two men set out on their snowmobiles in Cape Breton on Friday, they had no idea they'd find themselves lost in a blizzard, and fighting for their lives.

CH: Just trying to stay afloat. Eastern Kentucky hasn't recovered from catastrophic rain, and is about to get hit with snow. One woman says her small business flooded -- but she's most worried for those who've barely recovered from the last deadly floods.

HM: Out loud. Muhsin Hendricks was considered the world's first openly queer imam. On the weekend, he was fatally shot in South Africa -- and a friend of his says the world has been robbed of a shining light.

CH: She put Acadian culture on the literary map. Over a long and celebrated career, the late, award-winning novelist and playwright Antonine Maillet immortalized her heritage for the world to read.

HM: One caved -- and then they all caved. Hummingbirds are fiercely independent -- so scientists were stunned to find that, in more than one location, a bunch of them are nesting peacefully together in caves.

CH: And... Removing target. With its new campaign slogan, New Zealand intends to welcome visitors -- but as that campaign’s slogan, “Everyone Must Go!”, seems pretty unwelcoming.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that really gets people going.

Part 1: NS Snowmobile Rescue, Muhsin Hendricks Obit, Hummingbird Hive

NS Snowmobile Rescue

Guest: Hughie Whalen

CH: I hope you're warm and safe at home tonight, maybe under a blanket with a hot drink. That's been the best place to be in various parts of Canada recently, as piles of snow have been blown in on gusts of frigid wind. People in Ontario and Quebec are still digging out; today, the mayor of Montreal said the city hadn't received so much snow, in such a short time, since the 1950s. In western Canada, officials have issued extreme cold warnings. As you've been hearing on the news, weather may well have played a part in an incident in which a plane flipped upside-down at Toronto's Pearson Airport this afternoon. And on the East Coast, residents have been dealing with snow and ice too. Among those feeling especially lucky to be home right now are friends Dave Metcalfe and Hughie Whalen. On Friday, the men left for a snowmobile ride in the Cape Breton Highlands. It did not go according to plan. We reached Hughie Whalen at his home in Glace Bay, Nova Scotia, this afternoon.

HM: Hughie, how are you feeling today? How are you doing?

HUGHIE WHALEN: I'm Weak. I don't have no energy at all. I'm just laying on the couch trying to get better.

HM: And are you able to get some sleep?

HW: Oh, yeah. I've gotten lots of sleep; tonnes. Too much, I'd say.

HM: How are you doing emotionally?

HW: A wreck. A wreck. It's just so overwhelming because I was so close to death. And the three men that, they're friends of mine. I know of them. I've snowmobiled with them several times. They came and saved me in the middle of the night, and I don't even know how I'm going to thank them. And they're going to be at my house in the next half-hour. It's going to be pretty emotional, I tell you.

HM: I understand you're not, you're not able to eat.

HW: I don't know why. I just can't, I can't eat for some reason. I tell you, any time a time, I eat, I throw up. I don't know is that because the severe hypothermia I had? Or I'm not sure why, but I just don't have no appetite.

HM: Can you take me back to Friday, and your decision to go snowmobiling with your friend Dave? Yeah, what, what were the conditions like? What did you decide to do?

HW: Well, it was snowing out. It wasn't super bad, but it was snowing. We were having a great day. And we went down to a restaurant. We went and got something to eat. And I always keep contact with my wife throughout the day. I had texted her at the restaurant and said, we're at the restaurant now. We're having some coffee and stuff like that. And I said, but the weather's kind of crappy out. And she said, you guys are nuts. And I said, yeah, I know. I said, well, you know how I love to snowmobile, so I'm going to keep riding in the bad weather regardless. And she said, yeah, I know. That was around 2 in the afternoon. We went back to this place called The Pig and Whistle. It's a place where all snowmobilers get together, and it's a shelter for if you get in trouble or anything like that, it's a great place to go to. It's got a fireplace and all that there. We hung out there for a while, me and my buddy Dave, and then it started to get late. And I'm not the best snowmobile rider at nighttime. To be honest, I've never in my life drove at nighttime. So, I said to my buddy, I said, it's getting dark. We better head back to the truck. And we take the same way back to the truck as we came. And when we came earlier that day, and there was no snow drifts, there was no nothing. It was all flat ground. It was all, these are all groomed trails impossible to get stuck on. But when a snowstorm comes, and it was about six hours later, there was, no word a lie, four maybe six feet high snowdrifts going straight across the trails.

HM: So, what went through your mind at that point?

HW: I was scared then because it's now almost dark. It's, like, minutes away from being pitch dark. We hit the first snow drifts on the trail and we get stuck. We're still 20 kilometres from our truck, and we're already stuck. We try to keep going, try to keep going. And it was just getting stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck. So we said, we got to turn around. We got to go back. But then the blizzard was so strong when we turned around to go back, everything looked the same. No matter where you drove, everything was the exact same. And here we ended up driving 80, 80, what did the police officer said? We were 80, 80, 80 yards, we were 80 yards off the main trail. That's where we found Dave. And to us, when we were driving at nighttime, I thought we were on the trail, but that we were 80 yards off.

HM: And you were, you were out of cell phone range, presumably?

HW: Yeah. There's no cell phone. 911 Don't work up there. I tried it over and over and over again on my cell phone. So, me and Dave both got our snowmobiles stuck in the same spot in this big field. And I got the strength somehow to get mine unstuck one more time. And I got it up on the ground, and Dave was stuck real bad. And I said, Dave, I hate to do this, but we're going to die if I don't go back and try that trail again, try to get back to the truck and get help. And he said, okay, buddy, go for it. And he said, I hope the best that you make it. And I made it as far as I could. And then my snowmobile got buried into a snow drift.

HM: So, how long were you out there? And what were the conditions like through that time?

HW: We were out there the whole night. I got, I got rescued first because I was down right on the trail. The three guys that I ride with all the time, they know my routine. They know what trails I take. They know where I park my truck all the time. So, they had a pretty good idea. When they see my truck was still parked at the place where you unload your snowmobile, they knew, okay, where to go, which way to look for me. But they found me at 3 in the morning, but they had to leave me there. They hated to do that, but they had to leave me there because they had to try to get their way back to the truck to go get help. And they barely made it. They said the snow drifts and the snow conditions were that bad that those three guys barely made it to get to me, to find me. And then they got the groomer because that groomer can go through 10 feet of snow. That's a big machine. And the groomer came to my location around 7 in the morning, I think it was. So, I was out in the snow conditions. And at this time, my friends that saved me said that my jacket was wide open. My, my mask was off my face. I was starting to hypothermia. So, I'm starting to take my clothes off.

HM: Were you aware of being rescued? Were you, were you aware that they were helping you at that time?

HW: No, not really. They said I was, I wasn't even, I was coherent. I wasn't responsive at all. They said I was breathing, but I wasn't, I couldn't even talk to them. I was a whole day in the hospital. I was, I couldn't talk. Like, I was that bad of shape that the police officers kept coming to me saying, Where's Dave? You, you need to tell us, where's Dave? And I couldn't speak. All I could say was, Dave's in a field. He's in a field by some signs. That's all I was able to speak.

HM: How much through that night and all those long hours were you thinking of Dave?

HW: That's all I could think about. I thought, Is he going to make it? Like, are we both going to make it? I really was ready to say my goodbyes. And just luckily, my wife, she knows my routine. And if I don't call her, there's something wrong. Because she always knows when I get back to my truck and I'm on my way home, I calls her and says, okay, I'm on the way home. You know, everything's good. And when this night didn't happen like that, she got right on the computer and started looking for help.

HM: And when all this was happening, were you comforted knowing that she would have your back and she would be starting this process?

HW: Yes. When I was in the, in the snow drifts and I kept thinking, I can't get a hold of my wife. But as every hour went by, I knew my wife was going to be freaking out. So I knew that there's no way that she's just sitting there doing nothing. And I was like, help will come eventually. But I kept thinking, Can I survive this long?

HM: How much longer was Dave out there before they found him?

HW: He was out there 20 hours total.

HM: You know, your wife says that you've learned your lesson from all of this. Are you hesitant to even think about snowmobiling again?

HW: I will always snowmobile. I will never give up the sport. It's the most fun sport in the world. And the friends that you meet snowmobiling, overwhelming, overwhelming. It's just a sport that I'll always love and enjoy. But I'll never go riding again when there's a blizzard.

HM: Yeah.

HW: Never.

HM: Tell me about your feelings towards those guys who rescued you.

HW: I don't even know what I'm going to say when I see them in the next half-hour. They're on the way to my house right now. I only met these guys three years ago. I met them by putting a post on the computer saying, hi, my name is Hughie, and I'm looking to find people to go riding with. And I'm so I'm glad I met them [chuckle] because look, look what happened. They ended up saving me.

HM: Tell me about the first hug with your wife. What was that like?

HW: Oooo, pretty, pretty emotional because, like I said, I didn't think I was going to live. I really did think I was going to die.

HM: I'm so glad that you and Dave survived, and that you're willing to take this time to talk to us about it. Thank you so much, and all the best with, with your recovery, and our best to Dave, too.

HW: Yes. Thank you.

HM: You take care, bye-bye.

HW: Okay. Bye-bye.

CH: That was Hughie Whalen in Glace Bay, Nova Scotia. We reached him earlier today.

[sombre instrumental]

Muhsin Hendricks Obit

Guest: Jide Macaulay

CH: Muhsin Hendricks once compared being considered the world's first openly queer imam to being crowned Miss World. He was joking when he said that in a 2022 documentary. But as a Muslim man in South Africa, being out did bring a lot attention. As did starting a mosque in Cape Town that welcomed other gay Muslims, and calling for the faith to welcome the 2SLGBTQ-plus community. On Saturday, Imam Hendricks was fatally shot, after being ambushed by two men in a pickup truck. He was 57 years old. Police say they haven't established a motive for the killing yet, but South Africa’s Justice Ministry said it is investigating claims that he was the target of an assassination. In that 2022 documentary The Radical, Muhsin Hendricks reacted to the death threats he had received since speaking out publicly.

SOUNDCLIP

[bright guitar]

MUHSIN HENDRICKS: And it just didn't bother me. The need to be authentic was greater than the fear to die. Is this even possible? Is this real? Can we be queer and Muslim? And can we be in this space and, and praying together? The heart is not big enough to contain both fear and faith. You choose.

CH: That was Muhsin Hendricks, from the 2022 documentary The Radical. Jide Macaulay was Imam Hendricks' friend. He's an openly gay British-Nigerian Anglican minister. We reached him in Manchester.

HM: Reverend Macaulay, first of all, I just want to say I'm very sorry for the loss of your friend.

JIDE MACAULAY: Thank you so much.

HM: When you hear Muhsin saying how important it was for him to be his authentic self, what goes through your mind?

JM: What went through my mind is that our authentic self is likely to put us in harm's way. Our authentic self has been criminalized. Our authentic self has been demonized. I'm from Nigeria, so I know exactly what that phrase means. You know, what that quote means for Muhsin Hendricks? It means the same to me. And I think the inability for us to be ourselves literally puts us in harm's way. But for many of us who are people of faith, you know that fear to die is suddenly removed. So we're ready, you know? But at the same time, you know, Muhsin put himself out there. He made himself visible that it is possible to be both queer and a devout Muslim. And he went as far as becoming a cleric, you know, in the very same religion that condemns him, that demonizes him. And that is where it's very painful to see the violence against him.

HM: I want to ask you more about what he meant to queer Muslims around the world. Before I get to that, though, just can you share with us what he was like as a person and as your friend?

JM: As a person, as a, as a personal friend and a colleague, he's gentle, he's jovial, he's playful. He's very dedicated to all things spiritual. And he is a man of prayer, and a man of his words. You know, for me, you know, I mean, he is, he is jovial, and he loves to dance. He loves to have lots of fun. But at the same time, he's also very, very intellectual, very creative, you know? And, you know, he developed a concept of training others, you know, over a period of three months, you know, in order for them to be able to understand the depths of Islam and sexuality. So, for me as a person, it's a great loss because when I first met him over 50 years ago, I think that the first thing that we played around was gay pastor meets gay imam. [HM chuckles] And, you know, as radical as it is, then it was unheard of.

HM: You know, he made it his life's mission for members of the LGBTQ-plus community to be welcomed into Islam. When people learn that you were friends with Musin, what do they tell you?

JM: I think that it depends on, on, on who's speaking, you know? When I meet people that have known Musin, and I engage with them, and I tell them I've just had a meeting with him. I'm coming from South Africa, and I spent a lot of time with him, and I think that, you know, the sheer joy of knowing that somebody knows someone that they are inspired by is always a good thing. But then also, for those who have gained, you know, from histories, and those who have been able to reconcile their faith privately, and followed his teaching, there's always a great joy to hear what they have to say. One of my meetings with Muhsin is in Pretoria, South Africa in 2014. It was at the launch of the Global Interfaith Network, where he had been a great party, a co-founder for this movement, you know? And I think that at that point, he made it clear that we need to create a space for Muslim prayers. We need to create a space for dialog, you know, for Muslims and also across other religions so that LGBT people can find affirmation. They can find acceptance, not just for themselves, but for their family, and their friends, and their communities. Musin has contributed a lot. His legacy is so strong that I'm praying and hoping that it will continue because we need to let the world know that, you know, his death will not be in vain.

HM: You are both obviously men of faith. You shared that. But your own stories about coming out, finding your place in the world in that faith, those stories overlap as well. Can you tell me about that?

JM: They certainly do. I think the overlap with myself Muhsin Hendricks is, first of all, we're both Africans. He's South African. I'm from Nigeria. And, you know, we both actually ascribe, or subscribe to the African culture, you know, of family. You know, both of us got married to women when we were young. He came out at 29 years old. I came out when I was 28 years old. And, of course, you know, we both had to set our heterosexual marriage aside when coming out. And I think out of that, we both had a quest, you know, to ask for pathways to understand human sexuality in the context of same-sex relationships. And I think that for him growing up, of course, I mean, his Muslim upbringing had prepared him. But, of course, he had to go away and learn more about inclusive Muslim teachings and things of that nature. So, for me, I think that breaking out of that takes a lot of guts. And it takes a lot of fierceness in, in Muhsin. And I think that the unfortunate ending of his life is brutal. It takes away something precious from our world today. And that's, you know, is something that the world will mourn. Our communities will mourn for a long time.

HM: Again, I'm sorry to hear he has been lost. And I really appreciate you sharing your memories of him. Thank you so much, Reverend Macaulay.

JM: You're welcome. Thank you.

CH: Reverend Jide Macaulay is a British-Nigerian Anglican minister, and a friend of the late Imam Muhsin Hendricks. We reached Reverend Macaulay in Manchester.

[bright piano]

Hummingbird Hive

Guest: Juan Bouzat

CH: Hummingbirds are tiny, delicate, and adorable. Unless you’re another hummingbird. Then they’re tiny, delicate, and out for blood. These pint-sized warriors of the bird world are known for their fierce territorial battles. So, when a ornithologist in Ecuador stumbled across a cave full of hummingbirds living peacefully together in the Andes mountains, it was unexpected. But it turns out, this isn't just a one-time fluke. Researchers have found multiple hummingbird nesting colonies -- all of which raise questions about why the feisty birds are suddenly choosing to get cozy with their neighbours. Juan Bouzat is a biologist at Bowling Green State University who has studied this phenomenon. We reached him in Bowling Green, Ohio.

HM: Juan, describe for us just how aggressive and territorial hummingbirds are normally.

JUAN BOUZAT: Well, usually, hummingbirds are commonly known as solitary birds that, you know, they tend to forage individually. They are highly territorial. The females tend to nest individually, and they compete highly over resources. So, they are pretty aggressive between each other and, you know, to the point that they chase each other. And sometimes, I mean, there are some occasional reports that even fights can lead to death.

HM: So, what did you think when one of your graduate students, Gustavo, told you that he had found this cave full of hummingbirds that were nesting together?

JB: Well, this was really a surprise, actually. And he goes the first thing that he observed and he was completely surprised is this idea that you go to a single location and you find multiple nesting females with active nest having offsprings. And at the same time, he found a group of birds that were also roosting. So, this is another novelty, another novel discovery, which is not found in many, many avian species, where you, you, you found in the same location coexisting nesting groups and roosting individuals.

HM: Right. It's a big deal.

JB: Yeah. So, that was a big deal, particularly finding in Hummingbirds. So, that led to the possibility of trying to, to study and elucidate what may be the conditions in this particular species that may lead to form a colonial nesting and colonial roosting.

HM: So, what kind of theories are you coming up with about why these birds that would normally be antisocial appear to be colonizing together.

JB: These particular species, as, as many other species who have members, these are living in, in, in a particular environment endemic to the high Andes of Ecuador. So, they live basically at very high altitude in a location that is above the tree line. So, in an environment that is completely harsh, not a typical forest environment where birds can find places for nesting or for protecting. So, our first initial thought was that mainly environmental factors are driving the grouping. So, we first developed a, basically an environmental survey of the conditions under which these nests were found. And we found that basically they are associated with protected areas where they're protected from the very low temperatures. We have an opportunity to explore an alternative hypothesis, which is the individuals are grouping because there are social traits like height, tolerance, cooperation in, in some conditions that make them more favourable to be forming groups than to be nesting solitary.

HM: Some other ornithologists are skeptical. As you know, there's an argument that the hummingbirds are just tolerating each other rather than actively cooperating. What do you make of that?

JB: That's correct. It is apparent that other factors than only environmental factors may be driving the aggregations. Now, it is up to us to try to develop some other studies and test the hypothesis again. So, we were skeptical at the beginning. And that's why we try to make sure that we test the possibility that only environmental factors may be driving those aggregations. Our observations seem to indicate that there may be other factors involved.

HM: Would you consider, or is there reason to perhaps expand the research beyond Ecuador's high Andes region?

JB: One of the possible, I mean, one of the neat thing of this, this observation is that it allows us to make some predictions. So, if adaptive selection is what is promoting the aggregations, we would expect, and we would, in fact, predict that other, other different species from from the high Andes that lives in similar harsh environments may be also forming a, forming aggregations, nesting colonies, or nesting, or roosting, roosting aggregations. So, that would be another avenue where we can, we can search for potential evidence of, of adaptive selection favouring the formation of social groups.

HM: Juan, it's good to speak with you. I'm going to be looking at hummingbirds a little differently than before. [chuckling] Thank you so much.

JB: Bye. Have a great day.

CH: Juan Bouzat is a biologist from Bowling Green State University who helped study multiple hummingbird nesting colonies found in caves in Ecuador's Andes mountains. We reached him in Bowling Green, Ohio.

[overdrive guitar and drums]

New Zealand “Everyone Must Go!”

SOUNDCLIP

[a montage of “Everything Must Go!” ads]

CH: We're being evicted! We don't have to time to explain in detail but things are going very badly for us, financially, legally, and personally! Or we're tricking you into buying stuff, and everything doesn't must go! "Everything Must Go" sales aren't really inspiring. I mean, the whole idea feels manipulative, or potentially sad, or both. So, let's say you're trying to attract visitors to your beautiful country. Do you: a) make sure to refer to that vaguely depressing commercial slogan, or b) fire whatever ad executive suggested a)? Well, if you're New Zealand, you spend half-a-million dollars on a tourism campaign that relies entirely on a). Only you tweak the phrase "Everything Must Go" to make it very confusing. In the new tourism ads, attractive people are in attractive places in New Zealand. And splashed across the top of those ads is the phrase "Everyone Must Go!" With an exclamation mark, to really emphasize how much New Zealand's tourism board genuinely wants everyone to go. Now, when I want someone to come over, I do not tell them to go. Maybe I'm being too strict about the meanings of words. Also, people in New Zealand aren't huge on the implications. They're complaining that it sounds like their country is "in a clearance bin at a sale". Or that "everyone must go" sounds, you know, toilet-related. Or that it is poorly thought-out considering the record number of people -- especially young people -- who are leaving the country. In other words, going. It's just a tourism slogan. It might work out great! But it kind of feels like the slogan makers don't know whether they're coming or going.

[chillhop house tour music]

Part 2: Kentucky Flooding, Zoo Animal Art

Kentucky Flooding

Guest: Amanda Lewis

CH: Eastern Canada isn't the only part of North America coping in the aftermath of a major storm. Over the weekend, more than a month's worth of rain fell on Kentucky. It was part of a powerful storm that swept through large parts of the US. At least 13 people are dead; 11 in Kentucky alone. And now, the state is still under a state of emergency -- as people brace for snow over the next few days. Amanda Lewis is a respiratory therapist at Pikeville Medical Center, which is in the hardest-hit area. We reached her in Pikeville, Kentucky.

HM: Amanda, what kinds of things are you hearing from your colleagues and your patients today?

AMANDA LEWIS: A lot of people, you know, a lot haven't been able to make it to work. Some of my coworkers have family and friends that are still trapped, that people are trying to get to them. And some of the flood barricades are still up. And currently in my hometown of McRoberts, and where I went to school in Fleming-Neon, due to a mudslide, they are currently being flooded as we speak.

HM: Yeah, what are the weather conditions like right now?

AL: Well, right now, it looks okay. And the temperatures are dropped. Actually, yesterday, it started snowing, and the winds started very high. And this morning, the road conditions were very slick because of the snow on the ground and the ice. So, it's kind of crazy Kentucky weather. You never know what you're going to get.

NK: And you had to get into work. So, what was your drive like?

AL: It was very slick in spots, very cold. It dropped to like 25 today, this morning when I left about 5 a.m. Yesterday morning, at 5 a.m., it's 57 degrees.

HM: So, the water in people's homes is probably freezing right now as well and causing further damage.

AL: Yes. Yes. And, you know, therefore, that's going to cause a lot of health issues, pneumonia, you know, and those kind of things. So, it's a little bit of everything. A lot of fear, a lot of emotions are going.

HM: Yeah, I can imagine. And now, I understand, in addition to your work in health care, you own an antique shop. Have you sustained damage there?

AL: Yes, I have. I rent, like, the upstairs part of my shop. It's okay. The bottom part that I rent is my basement where I keep all of my inventory. And it's a total loss from the high waters that got waist-high, and the mud. And due to my work schedule; I work a five stretch, and I won't be able to do anything until my days off.

HM: You know, we hear a lot of people these days saying that their insurance companies are withdrawing coverage because of fear of certain conditions, including flooding. Will you be covered for that damage?

AL: Probably not. It's a total loss. And this is another thing in our area because it is a poverty area. It's very hard. A lot of us, including myself, have multiple jobs. And, and flood insurance is very high and not affordable. So, you know, it's kind of hard. Some, some areas, it's not offered. And so, you know, that is a whole different condition.

HM: Right. Now, what about your home? Are you worried about your home?

AL: My home is okay. Honestly, I'm more worried about my coworkers, my family, my friends. They've lost way more than I ever could. You know, like some are still trapped trying to get out. There's been so many, you know, swimming through flood waters, being rescued by boat. So, I hate to, you know, even say anything about myself because there are so many more that are worse off than me.

HM: Your state was hit with a deadly flood in 2022. Forty-five people across Kentucky were killed in that. How much is that weighing on people's minds in the last few days?

AL: A lot. And, you know, we have some fatalities with this flood also. The numbers still haven't come in because, you know, things are happening as we speak, such as, you know, the mudslides and more flooding. And some people haven't been rescued yet. Like, our area just recovered from 2022, which was three years ago. And people are just moving back in their homes. A lot of people are still displaced with not permanent housing. You know, I have a customer that lives with her son because she's disabled and has no income. And it's just, it takes a while. And people were just moving back, getting into there home and have to start all over again because it hit a lot of the same areas and the same people again. And it's very sad.

HM: You're worried you're not going to get enough support from the state, or even FEMA or other federal agencies?

AL: A lot of the big organizations, last time, nobody got much help from. Honestly, some are just now, three years later, seeing the, the help that FEMA had promised from the flood of 2022, just now getting help with that. And here, they're going to have to follow another claim. And, you know, other organizations, and the worry of FEMA not even being an organization anymore. And it was neighbour helping neighbour on ATVs and foot.

HM: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. You've mentioned your neighbours a few times. You spoke about your own personal concerns about your colleagues. What do you see in a time like this in terms of your neighbours and your communities pulling together?

AL: Well, that's the first thing that we do. It's neighbour helping neighbour. Usually here, there's a southern hospitality. And we're genuine. And usually, even though you're in bad shape, you're going to help your neighbour that may be in worse shape, or not as bad shape, but you put them first. There's a lot of people with servants hearts in our area. And that's just southern hospitality. That's just the way we go, and that's the way we survive.

HM: Well, Amanda, I hope that, that support helps you sustain each other. And I thank you for talking to us, and hope that things go better in the coming days.

AL: Thank you so much.

CH: We reached Amanda Lewis in Pikeville, Kentucky.

[bright acoustic guitar]

FOA: Antonine Maillet Obit

CH: She spoke her mind about the world around her, in her own language. And by doing so, she became the voice of the people. I'm talking about La Sagouine, the Acadian woman at the centre of the play of the same name. But I could also be talking about the writer who created her: Antonine Maillet. Ms. Maillet died overnight. She was 95. Her stories brought Acadia to the world's attention. She was the first non-European writer to win France's top literary award -- the Prix Goncourt -- in 1979, for her novel Pélagie-la-Charrette. It's the story of an Acadian woman, deported to the American South, who sets out on a journey back to Acadia in the late 1700s. Ms. Maillet wrote in Acadian French, but she was a fierce defender of language rights beyond her own mother tongue. In 1990, as division and debates over bilingualism flared, Antonine Maillet was a guest on As It Happens.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTONINE MAILLET: Well, I think there's a lot going on these days, but I'm a natural optimist woman. I don't know why I am, but I don't believe that this is the end of Canada. I think that we're going through some kind of an illness, some kind of a fever. But a fever can be a symptom, and it can be cured. And I believe we can do something. The intolerance that we see now is just something that is in the light. But I believe that that is just a minority. I don't believe that most of the English people in Canada, or the French, French-speaking people in Canada, want the death of the other group. I don't believe that. And I want to come back on the idea of multiculturalism. We profit from all those cultures that came to Canada at the right moment when we could more or less digest it. And it gives something to Canada. I believe in that, you know? And never would I think that having a bilingual Canada would mean to, to kill those other cultures. I don't, but I think it's an asset for everybody to have that. I would never want to impose, for instance, for instance, a person living in your Yukon or in British Columbia to be forced to speak or learn French, no. Just let us do it. I think everybody can speak his own language. He doesn't even have to speak the second language. That's not what bilingualism is for me. It is the opportunity to speak our own and live according to our own language.

CHRISTOPHHER THOMAS: Do you think we're losing that?

AM: I think we're doing something now that is dangerous. Because not that we might lose it, but we might get to have passions around that. And to, the danger is that, that either the Quebec people would say, okay, if you don't want us, we'll go away. And that's the end of Canada, probably. Or that, on the other hand, that Quebec would force the English minority to feel that way. I mean, the idea is that we might get to, to be enraged on both sides. And that is what disturbs me more. I don't think we're going to lose our language, but we might become foreigners to each other. Strangers.

CH: From the As It Happens archives, that's the late writer, Antonine Maillet speaking to As It Happens guest host Christopher Thomas in 1990. Ms. Maillet has died at the age of 95.

[electronica]

Zoo Animal Art

Guest: Jordan Patch

CH: Tickets for the upcoming Dream Big Gala cost over $100. Which might seem a lot to just get into an auction where you'll just spend more money. But it's guaranteed to be worth it, because attendees will have the opportunity to bid on the work of some really talented artists. Artists who've produced some truly phenomenal work, for peanuts…and seeds…and maybe a few raw fish. The featured creators are all residents of the Animal Adventure Park and Preserve in Harpursville, New York. Jordan Patch is the owner of that zoo. We reached him in Binghampton, New York.

HM: Jordan, tell us a bit more about the up-and-coming artists whose work is going to be featured in this auction.

JORDAN PATCH: Oh, each year, our animals go to task and create absolutely remarkable art pieces. And from a diverse collection, everything from lions, tigers and wolves, to giraffes, rhinoceros, and primates, each animal animal is putting in the effort to create the art that helps raise funds for their care.

HM: Describe some of the art for us.

JP: Oh, it's remarkable, and depends on the species. Some of our animals, like our monkeys, parrots, and sloths, will actually hold the paint brushes and apply the brush to the canvas and do unique stroke work that is truly, you know, their interpretation of what they're to do on the blank canvas. Where we have other species that will walk across our canvases capturing wonderful tail drags and footprints. And even like our rhinoceros, absolutely amazing impressions of his lips and his horn, which is life-size and a remarkable piece.

HM: What do you have to do, or do you have to do anything, to encourage these animals to, to take part in all of this?

JP: Well, absolutely. Any artist needs a little motivation. So, what we do is we use positive reinforcement training, which is a part of their normal enrichment and routine while they're in our care. And what we're simply doing is changing our ask of them, and asking them to simply engage the canvas or engage the paint. And then they do so. So, while some of it is food motivation, so positive reinforcement through treats, other things is like normal locomotion of walking over a canvas, or simply playing with their keepers, much like our parrots and monkeys like to do.

HM: I have a painting that was gifted to me that was done by Lucy, who's an elephant at the Edmonton Zoo. And Lucy would hold the brush in her trunk, and the keepers there said it was really an enriching activity for her. What do the animals get out of this?

JP: Well, any time we talk about enrichment, it is the maintaining of a healthy body and mind for the animals. So, when we're enriching, it can be as simple as puzzle feeders, or food foraging, training exercises, or in this situation, painting. It's something different, unique, out of normal routine that engages them and keeps them thinking, which again achieves a healthy body and mind.

HM: Do they get to choose anything about the medium that they use -- the colour or anything like that?

JP: Well, certainly. Sometimes with some of our animals that are more in tune to hold the brush and engage the canvas, we'll offer a palette of colors, and they have free choice to dip their brush into the colours that they wish and then apply them to the canvas, which often yields some really unique blending of colours on the art pieces.

HM: Do you think the, the enrichment is the act of creating the art, or just the kind of the social encouragement, the contact with the keepers, that sort of thing?

JP: Well, it's all-encompassing. So, the engagement by their keepers is done on a daily basis. But it's the ask. When we say the ask, it's the activity that's perhaps out of normal routine, that's the fun, that's the engagement. And whether it's the smell of the paint, or the medium of touching onto the canvases, that's the engaging part of it.

HM: It must be pretty messy at times. I guess, there's a lot of bathing involved after.

JP: Absolutely. Luckily, the paint comes off with a quick wash, and our artists never have any lasting impressions on themselves, we'll say.

HM: Yeah. So, I gather not all of the artwork makes the cut to get into the auction. How do you choose?

JP: Well, you're absolutely right there. So, what we do is we always have a list of our desired artists for each year's gala. And sometimes it'll take two, three, four different attempts to finally capture the piece that is going to best represent that species, but also be an inspiring and engaging piece to our potential buyers. We want the piece to tell a story, so each one needs to be unique in its own way, and is accompanied by a unique description just like you would get in a gallery program at an art auction that's created by humans.

HM: Do you know if there are any of your supporters who are collectors of a particular species?

JP: Without question. By all means. Our giraffes are probably the most sought after collectors pieces. We have five giraffes at a given time, and they'll collect a piece from each individual giraffe throughout the course of a number of years. More recently, our cheetahs, our rhinoceros. So, certainly, it depends with any new additions or an animal that happens to capture someone's heart during a visit to the park.

HM: Well, yeah, I was going to say, is it because they love giraffes, or because the giraffes are gifted artists?

JP: I think it's a little bit of both.

HM: Yeah. How much does this, this go for? How much do these paintings bring in to the zoo?

JP: Oh, it really depends, again, on the size of the piece. But we've had pieces that go for a modest few hundred dollars. And we've had some that have sold for thousands of dollars in the past.

HM: Really?!

JP: Yes.

HM: And what pieces have drawn the most financial support for the zoo?

JP: Our giraffe pieces have. More recently, one of our penguin pieces has. And our flamingos generally tend to create a really unique piece of art which is well sought after each year.

HM: Why is it so unique?

JP: Well, it's, what's unique is that the webbed fee of the flamingos, when applied to the canvas, actually almost gives the visual of a bird flying on the horizon, like that arched view you'd see in a normal piece of artwork. And with the number of flamingos that we have dancing across that canvas, it's a flamboyance. It's like a flock of seagulls flying across this canvas. And each year, the contrast between the pinks and the reds and the black canvas that we use really is eye-catching. And the one thing we always say is under the right light, the piece tells a different story, and that is entirely true.

HM: Do you have a favorite piece among the ones this year?

JP: Oh, I'm actually reviewing them right now. I'd say one of my favourites this year was produced by our Cheetah brothers, Amiri and Tabby.

HM: I see. What do you think draws people to this event?

JP: Well, I think it's the uniqueness of the event. I'm not aware of any other facilities that actually truly host an animal art-centric event where the stars of the show are the animals. But also, it's an opportunity for our followers and supporters to get together with us in the off-season, celebrate the park, celebrate the animals, get back together, and prepare for the season ahead.

HM: All right. Well, best of luck with the event itself. It's been fun to talk to you.

JP: Great. Well, thank you so much for your time.

CH: Jordan Patch is the owner of the Animal Adventure Park and Preserve, which is hosting an auction for art made by its animals. We reached him in Binghampton, New York.

[funk]

FTR: Warwick Davis BAFTAS

CH: As career beginnings go, Warwick Davis's was both humble and out of this world. The actor was born with a rare bone growth disorder that results in dwarfism. He got his big break when his grandmother heard about an open casting call for people four feet and under. It was for Return of the Jedi. Mr. Davis was 11 at the time, and he was cast as an Ewok. Not exactly a starring role -- his face was entirely covered with an adorable Ewok face -- but his personality and charisma won him a bigger role in that film. And then, bigger and bigger roles in subsequent films -- from the starring role in Willow to the Harry Potter movies, and a gig starring as a fictionalized version of himself in the sitcom Life's Too Short. Last night, Warwick Davis was honoured at the BAFTA awards, where he was handed the Academy Fellowship -- or lifetime achievement award. In his speech, he focused on his life offscreen -- in particular, on the loss of his wife Samantha, who died last year, and who’d given him so much support over the years.

SOUNDCLIP

WARWICK DAVIS: While this is probably the best thing that's ever happened to me, and I've been in Star Wars. [laughter] Sory, Tom. Thank you so much. Now, I'm going to keep this short. It's been a long night. Short? Yeah, you can laugh. [laughter] It's good. I thought it and had gone, phew! I won't do any more. That's the last one. But thank you, everyone. So, I'm going to firstly say thank you to my Mum, my very first agent all those years ago. And the reason I'm here tonight, quite literally. She's not a cab driver. She gave birth to me 55 years ago. Thank you, Mum. And also, I'd like to thank my incredible team, my agent, and all the people who have supported me throughout my career. This award isn't just for me. It's for all of you. Hang on a minute! Sub that! I've done all the work. It's for me. This is all mine. [cheers and claps] Above all, though. I'd like to dedicate and thank my wonderful wife, Sammy, who died almost a year ago. She was always so supportive of my career, encouraged me to grab every opportunity with both hands. However, I soon noticed that her level of enthusiasm for me taking on a particular role was often relative to how much she wanted that new designer handbag. [laughter] Since then, life has been pretty tough for me. But thanks to the support of our wonderful children, Annabel and Harrison, I've been able to continue working and engaging in life. [clapping] Special mention two should go to Sponge. You know who you are. Thank you for showing me that life can still have meaning. And for helping me to laugh [choked up] and to love again. [clapping] One final thought. To anyone out there dreaming of telling their story or creating something meaningful. Go for it. The world needs your vision. And in future, if you need an actor to help bring that vision to life, remember the little fellow at the BAFTA. [laughter]

CH: For The Record, actor Warwick Davis accepting the Academy Fellowship, or lifetime achievement award, at last night's BAFTAs.

[jaunty instrumental]

Part 3: Helen Mann Pak

Helen Mann Pak

CH: In five provinces today, people are celebrating Family Day. And as longtime listeners know, Helen Mann is an important part of the As It Happens family. She began her CBC career in 1989, as an editorial assistant, and has excelled in every job she's had here since -- including as a senior writer for CBC News Network and, of course, as a guest host on this program. Later this year, After nearly 20 guest-hosting here, and 36 years at the CBC, Helen will be retiring. So, for tonight's show, we've visited the archives and emerged with some of Helen's many memorable appearances on As It Happens. Starting with her conversation with Steve Jenne. A man who needs an introduction, and here it is: Mr. Jenne is the owner of a sandwich partly eaten by U.S. President Richard Nixon. At the time, Mr. Jenne had had that sandwich for more than 40 years.

SOUNDCLIP

HM: Hello, Steve Jenne.

STEVE JENNE: Hi, Helen.

HM: How are you today?

SJ: I'm fine, thank you.

HM: Great. Well, you have to tell us, how did you come to possess a portion of Richard Nixon sandwich?

SJ: Well, this was September of 1960 in my hometown, Sullivan, Illinois, which is at that time about population 3,000. And Sullivan had sent out invitations to both Mr. Nixon, who was vice president at the time, and John Kennedy to have a political debate in Sullivan. Mr. Kennedy politely declined. He had a previous commitment, but Mr. Nixon accepted. And, in his honour, the town of Sullivan had a buffalo barbecue picnic. And there were thousands and thousands of people who came from all over central Illinois and really all over from other states, as I understand, to, to see the vice president. And we had a, at that time, the security then was my Boy Scout troop.

HM: Really?!

SJ: Yes.

HM: So, I was stationed conveniently, right, right around the vice president's picnic table, and stood right behind Mr. Nixon and his wife, Pat, who was also there. And they served him a buffalo barbecue meat sandwich on a paper plate. And he took a couple of bites from that sandwich, and made some nice comments, and then excused himself to go make his political speech in another part of the park. And when he got up and left, so did all of the thousands of other people that followed him. And I was left standing there at his picnic table. And I looked down and noticed that that sandwich was still on that paper plate, so I just picked it up and ran home with it.

HM: That's a long time ago. But, Jim, can you remember what you were thinking when you ran home with the sandwich?

SJ: I just remember thinking that I wanted to get that home as quickly as possible. My mother was home, and I told her, I said, Ma, this is Vice President Nixon's sandwich that he didn't finish. And she said, what do you want me to do with it? And I just said, I said, well, freeze it! So, thanks to her, she put it in a plastic bag and then put that inside a glass jar and stuck it in the freezer. And it's been almost 46 years ago.

HM: How old were you at the time?

SJ: I was 14.

HM: I can imagine over the years, your mother cleaned out that freezer, that over the course of time, you cleaned out your freezer. Did at any point you ever think of throwing it out?

SJ: Well, you're exactly right, Helen. My, I think when I was away at college, Mom, that did happen. And that the glass jar spilled out and landed on the floor. But fortunately, it didn't break. And dad said, what was that? And mom said, well, that was the Nixon sandwich. [HM laughs] He goes why don't you throw, throw that thing away. And fortunately, she did not. And, and you're right, I have cleaned out my freezer several times. But it's, it doesn't take up that much space. And as long as I'm around, I'm going to keep it.

HM: So, you mentioned a jar. How do you preserve a half-eaten sandwich for 46 years?

SJ: Okay. Well, it's still the way, the same way that Mom preserved it. It's still in a plastic baggie, and inside an old I think it was an apple sauce and jar was a twist off top. And it just fits where I kind of squeeze it inside. And it just sits in a corner of my freezer.

HM: What does it look like now?

SJ: Well, I did have it out just recently for a local photographer, which ran the original story here a couple of days ago. And then, a couple of months ago, of course, I had to take it out to, to Hollywood for the appearance on I've Got a Secret. And took it out there and had to show it to the, the guest celebrity panelists. But it's in remarkably good shape for still being almost 46 years. It's starting to show [chuckling] a little wear and tear, but you can still see the bite marks. The bun is still intact, the meat is still inside, and still looks pretty good.

HM: I have to ask you, when Watergate broke, and that scandal was everywhere. Did you ever think about throwing the sandwich out?

SJ: No. No, I didn't. Well, I shouldn't say, maybe, maybe I thought about it. But no, I didn't really seriously consider that.

HM: Have you put the sandwich in your will. Is it going somewhere when you're no longer with us?

SJ: That's an excellent question. No, I haven't considered that. And maybe I should.

CH: Helen speaking to Steve Jenne -- the proud owner of a sandwich partly eaten by Richard Nixon in 2006.

HM: Yeah, you know. It’s, it’s astonishing how many interviews there are about food on this show. The ones that do stand out the most tend to involve disgust. [laughing]

CH: Yeah. Yeah. And just curiosity in a thing that at first glance…and maybe second…and maybe number more after that seems like a slightly peculiar thing to do.

HM: The best thing is talking to people who have specific interests, little quirks. Because we all have quirks. And it’s a delight to talk to them.

CH: Absolutely. Yeah, and, well, so delightful, in fact, as Mr. Jenne that we actually called him back in 2020. You were not here. But the sandwich turned 60 around then. And just, I know you want to be updated. The sandwich, by the way, is still holding up pretty well.

HM: Oh, thanks so much! I can sleep now.

CH: [laughing] You can sleep tonight. Those kinds of story are our bread-and-butter here on As It Happens -- where we recognize the importance of upholding the show's many age-old traditions -- like our regular check-in with Gävle, Sweden. the town that has a giant straw goat, which it puts up every year. And which -- more often than not -- is mysteriously burned down every holiday season. Now, Helen spoke to people in Gävle several times about their annual efforts to help that goat survive the holidays -- starting in 2009. That's when Helen spoke to Ana Ostman, the spokesperson for the committee that constructs the Gävle goat.

SOUNDCLIP

HM: Ana, this program has discussed the Gävle goat before, but this is my first time on this topic, so can you fill me in? Just give me a bit of the background on on the tradition of building this goat.

ANA OSTMAN: Yes, it all started in 1966. So it's 43 years old by now. And he's the world's biggest straw goat. So, he's made of straw and wood. And then, came up with the idea of making a giant version of a traditional Swedish Christmas goat of straw. And what he wanted to do is, was that he wanted to attract customers to the shops and restaurant in the in the southern part of the town centre. And he's really, really big. He's 13 metres high, tall, and seven metres long.

HM: That is big.

AO: Yes, he's very, very big.

HM: And how much does it cost to construct this thing?

AO: Not that much, actually. It's like, how much would it be in Canadian or in U.S. dollars? It would probably be like $20,000 U.S.

HM: Well, that's a lot of straw.

AO: Yeah. [chuckling] Yeah, but he's giant. He's very, very big, so. And what tends to happen is that people burn him down, which is very, very sad. So, we're trying to protect him every year. So, we've succeeded a few times, but we keep fighting against the arsonists that wants to burn him down.

HM: I guess a big straw goat is a great temptation to someone who is tempted to, to, you know, be an arsonist.

AO: Yeah, I'm afraid so.

HM: Now, you say you've made efforts to try and protect the goat. What are you doing this year?

AO: We used to use flame retardant chemicals to, to protect him, but that turned him so brown, and he didn't look nice at all. So, we've stopped doing that. And what we've done this year that he, is that he's got 2,000 baby goats to protect him. It's like soft toys that he's selling, and he's using the profit to, to hire more guards because that's what's protected him the most.

CH: Helen, talking to Ana Ostman about the flammable Gävle goat in 2009. And then, two years later, she caught up with Ms. Ostman again:

SOUNDCLIP

HM: Hello, Ana Ostman.

AO: Hello, Helen. How are you?

HM: I'm well. How are you today?

AO: Not that well, I'm afraid.

HM: Oh dear. I'm sorry to hear it.

AO: It's a bad day in Gävle.

HM: A sad day. Oh dear. And is that because of the goat?

AO: It is, yes. We're so proud of him.

HM: It seems, though, that it's not really the Christmas holidays unless we call you about the goat. I spoke with you, in fact, two years ago. And the goat caught on fire that year. And here we are again. So, what is left of the, is it Gävlebocken?

AO: Yes, it is.

HM: Okay. What's left of him?

AO: Only ashes, I'm afraid.

HM: That must be a big pile of ashes.

AO: Yeah. And a wooden skeleton with ashes, yeah. So, he looks quite frightening right now, so.

HM: What happened this time?

AO: We don't really know. You can watch it on YouTube, actually. So, you can see some guy who goes behind the goat with something next to his leg. It's probably some gas or something. And they set him on fire. And within one or two minutes then the snow gets less. So, it's really, really fast.

HM: So, was this footage captured by CCTV?

AO: No, it's with webcams, so you can watch it on YouTube if you like.

HM: Now, are people monitoring those webcams all night? Obviously, if they are, someone fell asleep.

AO: Yeah. [chuckling] Yeah. People all around the world are watching them. Actually, from 140 different countries. So, it's quite a, quite a popular goat.

HM: You know, after all these years, it's pretty amazing that the goat still manages to catch fire all the time. You're not playing a joke on us, are you?

AO: No, we're not. We're really struggling to protect him every, every single year. This year, we tried to, to give him, cover him with ice. And that was our birthday gift for him because he's 45 years old now. He's, actually, it was his birthday yesterday. So, this was a very bad present for him.

CH: From 2011, Helen speaking to Ana Ostman, the spokesperson for the committee that builds the Gävle goat. And Helen was hosting again in 2019 when we checked in with Maria Wallberg -- the Gävle goat spokesperson -- when we learned about the goat's little brother.

HM: Maria, we always take such interest in the goat on this program. I have to ask you, is it still standing?

MARIA WALLBERG: Yes, it's still standing.

HM: And yet, all is not well in Gävle. What has happened?

MW: Last night, there were some person who tried to set the little goat on fire. And so, he was really burned, but not burned down.

HM: And when you say the little goat, this is the Gävle goat's baby brother. Is that right?

MW: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's correct.

HM: So, how did you discover it had been burned?

MW: I saw it on the on the news this morning because I'm the spokesperson of the giant, the Gävle goat. So, media don't call me if it happens something with a little goat. So, so I saw it this morning.

HM: I don't know if everybody knows that there's a little brother goat. Yeah, how big is it?

MW: It's about, I guess, three, three metres high. And the, the giant, the Gävle goat is about 30 metres high. So, it's, it's a big difference. So, he's really a baby brother.

CH: From Our Archives, that’s Helen talking to Maria Wallberg about the Gävle goat in December 2019. As It Happens covers stories from the serious to the…the fairly unserious. Ideally, that makes for an exciting and surprising listening experience. But for those doing the interviews, navigating those transitions can be really complicated. One minute, you're talking about unique cultural traditions in Gävle, Sweden -- and the next you're on the phone with someone at the centre of a harrowing story thousands of kilometres away. That day in 2019 when Helen talked to Ms. Wallberg, she also talked to Aslan Nazaraliyev. He was on a Bek Air plane flying out of Almaty, Kazakhstan when the plane hit a concrete barrier shortly after take-off. It then crashed into a building, killing 12 people. Mr. Almaty watched as the plane was torn apart at the 14th row of seats. He told Helen he was only alive because he was seated in row 15.

SOUNDCLIP

HM: Mr. Nazaraliyev, how are you doing right now?

ASLAN NAZARALIYEV: I'm exhausted, but emotionally and physically, I am okay. Thanks God that I am alive, and that I didn't get hurt. Totally fine.

HM: I'm glad to hear it. Can you tell us when you first realized something was wrong on that plane?

AN: Yes. Just after it took off from the ground, suddenly, left side wing, there was something very strange swinging. Like, it affect the right side of the wing. Then it lost the balance. It start like a swinging like a boat in a wild river. Just moments later, the plane itself started shaking and vibrating the whole body of the plane.

HM: What was the reaction from you and the other passengers?

AN: Panic. I mean, I was sure that something wrong happened. And I was like sure that crew and pilots lost control of the plane. So I tightened up my seatbelt. But still, the plane was trying to go higher. I mean, its front end was upwards. They're still trying to go higher.

HM: And what were you thinking of in that moment as these things were happening around you?

AN: Yeah, I thought about only one thing: what with my two daughters do without their father? So I was like sure that I would be dead soon. And the first thing, and only thing in my mind, was my daughters. So I have two daughters — seven and a four-year-old — and I was thinking about their future. How would they live without their father? So I was not afraid for myself. And I was not scared for myself. I was scared for my children.

HM: Right.

AN: Yeah.

HM: Describe the moment of impact — the crash itself. What was that like?

AN: So I was sitting in the aisle part of the row, seat number 15C. So I was observing front end of the plane. How would it react when they hit the ground? Then, when they hit the ground, from the front side, the ceiling started coming down a smashing everyone — the ceiling from the front end. At the same time, it was like falling apart like in a movie I don't know. It was starting falling apart — all these particles. At the same time, the ceiling coming down. And the last person whom the ceiling smashed was number 14 — the row number 14. So I was sitting in the row number 15. There was one row before me. So that guy, he got smashed with the ceiling. And from there, it stopped — the plane. Then, afterwards, of course, right now, we know it was a concrete building in front of that plane. It was a two-storey concrete building on which the plane smashed. I mean, it went into the building — the first floor of the building. So I think it was like it hit the ground, then it was sliding over the ground, and it hit with its head the two-storey concrete building that it stopped the plane.

HM: It sounds absolutely terrifying. What happened after that? What did you and the other passengers do once that happened?

AN: After that, immediately, all the lights went off. And from the right side of me there was one guy. I think he opened the emergency exit on that row we were sitting. So we quickly started coming off from the plane. So once we came out from the plane, I just stepped on the wing. But the wing was very slippery. I think it was like icy. So, immediately, I fell on my knees on the wing, and then slide it over it to the backside. And everyone were coming out, and they were all falling down same way— falling from the wing. Then, we immediately helped each other to cross the wing, and we started going to the forward of the plane.

HM: And it was dark all this time, right?

AN: It was dark all the time, and because it was 7:20 A.M., I think it was dark all the time. And the men who survived, the started shouting, hey, let's help those guys who are asking for help. Someone was screaming. It was like a mess over there. So some people started lighting with their cell phone. Someone was shouting for a lighter trying to help with the light. And we — some several guys — started pulling out helping people who got smashed under all this debris of the concrete, the ceiling of the plane itself.

HM: Were you worried while you were helping all these people that the plane might burst into flames?

AN: Yeah, yeah, that some my personal scare. And someone also was shouting about that — that it would go into fire because the plane is full of fuel. Yeah. But somehow, the will to help those people who were injured really badly, I think maybe were stronger than the risk of danger of fire, I guess. So that was idea. So it was all quick, but it took about I think 20-something minutes because it was too long for survival to come. Everyone's shouting, someone with asking someone to call the emergency, someone was crying, lots of noise over there. Yeah.

HM: And how long until the emergency people arrived?

AN: At least 20-25 minutes, I think. Yeah, I think. Yeah.

HM: Now, we are told that at least a dozen people have died. As you said, these people were just in front of you — many of them.

AN: Yeah.

HM: Can you share your feelings tonight on how you feel having escaped that?

AN: Well, actually, I don't know. I didn't even think about that, yeah. How it's maybe tomorrow. Today, I maybe didn't realize it yet. But, of course, it's very, very bad.

HM: You said earlier that you fly pretty much every week.

AN: Yes.

HM: Do you think you will hesitate before you get on a plane again?

AN: No, I don't think so because I believe all the time that there are more car crashes than plane crashes. So I think there is no way of it being a threat. I mean, my personal feeling is that. But, next time, I'll be more wise in choosing the airline company and analyzing their planes, I guess.

HM: You had spoken of your daughters, have you seen your girls that you thought so much of in those moments?

AN: Well, of course, of course, I actually, once we arrived to the airport, I immediately asked to go home. And I just immediately hugged my kids, my wife, and kiss them. Then, I told them that there was some accident, that's why I'm back home again.

HM: Well, Mr. Nazaraliyev, I'm very happy you're back safely with your family.

AN: Thank you.

HM: And it’s terrible that there was this loss of life. I appreciate you telling us about it.

CH: From Our Archives, that’s Helen speaking to Aslan Nazaraliyev after he survived the Bek Air plane crash in Kazakhstan in 2019. How much do those intense, like, that kind of intense conversation, how much does that stay with you over the years?

HM: Some of them stay with you for decades. I remember speaking with a woman who was friends with Anna Politkovskaya, the Russian journalist who was murdered. And afterwards, in the moments afterwards, we turned of the microphones, and I had a cry, a little cry, and I think as I recall, the producer did too. And that’s happened more than a few times where you get through the interview, and then you have sort of the emotions take you over. Because you realize what they people you’ve spoken with have been through. So many heroic stories of people who have gone above and beyond. And, yeah, I mean, the joyful stories, the quirky stories stay with you, too.

CH: Of course, yeah.

HM: But, yeah, it’s a privilege for us to sit in these chairs, isn’t it? I agree.

[Stormy Weather by Oscar Peterson/jazz]

CH: This is the late-great Oscar Peterson on the piano with Stormy Weather. When the legendary jazz musician died in 2007, Helen was guest hosting As It Happens. And she talked to another great jazz musician about Mr. Peterson's legacy. Here's some of her conversation with Diana Krall on Christmas Eve, the day after Mr. Peterson died in 2007.

SOUNDCLIP

HM: Hello, Diana Krall.

DIANA KRALL: Hi, Helen. How are you?

HM: Oh, I'm fine today. Thank you for speaking with us.

DK: My pleasure.

HM: First of all, condolences.

DK: Well, it's a great loss. You know, it's, it's, it's very emotional for me on on many levels because Oscar Peterson was the reason I became a jazz pianist, I think, in my Grade Eight annual, my goal in life was to be like him. [chuckle] Which is, I never achieved that. But I, he, he continued to inspire me to, just the most recently, the last time I visited him was with, was with John Clayton in, in Toronto. And we had a lovely dinner, but it became more than just about the great artist Oscar Peterson, which we all know he was the greatest living jazz pianist after Art Tatum. And, but then I got to know him and his family. And that, then he spent time with my children, and I spent time with his daughter, and his children, and his wife and family. And it became a very close relationship in the last few years.

HM: Tell me about the roots of the inspiration he gave you. When did you first hear the music of Oscar Peterson?

DK: Well, I remember my mom made me a satin blue jacket to go to the Orpheum when I was about maybe 15 years old to hear him with Ella Fitzgerald. And I remember that day very well. But I heard his music prior to that growing up. And then, my first Oscar Peterson record was an album called Night Train, which is, I'm actually pictured on my album, Girl in the Other Room, sitting on the floor listening to my hi-fi with the original record. [HM chuckles] And, you know, that record still, and that, in that song still, there's a few bars where it's just every every reason for me to be a jazz musician is in that one piece of music, Night Train, because of Ray Brown, because of Oscar Peterson, because of 6/10, because of the swing and the communication they had. But mostly, what I found was not only just the technical, you know, I mean, the ability to do anything technically Oscar wanted to do pretty much on the piano, but was the emotional, and it's hard to explain, but the emotion combined with that, and that was a huge force.

HM: Tell me about meeting him, what that was like for you the first time and how it came about.

DK: I met him at the Montreal Jazz Festival. And I remember that Celine was just a baby. She must have been just maybe two or three. And I was performing there, and he was in the wings. And I was so in awe of him, I don't even think I said only a few words. And most recently on his 80th birthday, we went back to his house, and he said to me after we were having a good visit and listened to some records together, so he used to call me Lady Di. Should we go downstairs and you can play the box? And I was like, the piano, the 10-foot Bösendorfer Oscar Peterson piano? And I had to throw all my ego out the window. It was like the best and worst thing that could have happened to me in my life [laughing] all happening at once. And I went, yes. So, we went downstairs and we sang Nat King Cole songs, and we used to play this game where I'd try to sort of like call all the rarest obscure Nat King Cole songs. And we used to love to sing this one called I Just Can't See for Looking Together. And it was, it's something I'll never forget. I mean, how fortunate am I to share in, in, in his family life? I mean, to me, it was, he was so much about family and the relationship that he had with, I mean, this is very new. So I'm quite surprised because I'm still talking about him in the present, and that he has with Kelly and Celine, and getting to know them and their family was a great gift for me.

CH: Helen speaking to Diana Krall about Oscar Peterson after the jazz legend died in 2007.

The AIH Transcript For February 17, 2025

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