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The AIH transcript for February 14, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Changing of the guard. The U.S. is unsettling allies at an international security forum -- so a former Ukrainian minister tells us it's time for European countries to start spending more, when it comes to defending themselves.

CH: Thoughts and prey-ers. A spike in coyote attacks on dogs has pet owners in Toronto warning about increasingly aggressive animals -- and concerned about city officials they say aren't aggressive enough.

NK: Curtains call. The tour of a children's musical was abruptly cancelled by the Kennedy Center -- amid the presidential shakeup of its board. One of its creators tells us he suspects the U.S. president's aversion to drag had something to do with it.

CH: A chilly reception. A climatologist in Romania shares what he learned about what's called the "Little Ice Age" in Eastern Europe by reading 16th-century diaries.

NK: Ape-rodisiacs. Researchers discover that different groups of chimps use different gestures to request what they call sneaky copulation.

CH: And...a worthy banana-ficiary. A small British village awakens to find itself festooned with bananas duct-taped to walls -- which the artist insists could fetch millions of dollars at auction.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio that suggests: if you're financially stuck, here's your escape fruit.

Part 1: Munich Conference: Ukraine, Kennedy Center Musical, Chimp Mating Dialects

Munich Conference: Ukraine

Guest: Volodymyr Omelyan

CH: This week, the Trump administration put its European allies on notice. And none of those allies are more shaken than Ukraine. At a security summit in Munich, U.S. Vice President JD Vance told leaders, quote, "there is a new sheriff in town.” Unquote. He also met with Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to discuss President Trump's announcement that he had agreed to peace negotiations with Vladimir Putin. And in the same week, the new U.S. Defence Secretary Pete Hegseth called Ukraine's goal of recovering all of its territory from Russia, quote, "unrealistic." Unquote. Volodymyr Omelyan is a former Ukrainian Infrastructure minister who now serves as a major in the Ukrainian armed forces. We reached him in Kyiv.

NK: Major, after what you've heard from the U.S. president, the vice president, the secretary of defense this week, how are you feeling about your U.S. ally?

VOLODYMYR OMELYAN: You know, it's a tough question, frankly saying. Because, for me, first statements I heard from Munich, it was a kind of cold shower. But definitely, I don't believe that Trump and his new team want to make Russia great again. So, they are totally focused on the United States, and they want America great again. Definitely, Europe should finally realize that most likely we are home alone, and we should do our business by ourselves.

NK: So, you're saying a cold shower, but an understanding that they're more concerned about U.S. interests rather than Russia's. I want to play a bit of tape from Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He's talking about his meeting with the U.S. vice president.

SOUNDCLIP

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: Well, we're thankful for and support President Trump. We have good conversation today. Our first meeting, not last, I'm sure. And really what we need to, to speak more, to work more, and to prepare the plan how to stop Putin and finish the war. We want, really, we want peace very much. But we need real security guarantees.

NK: Security guarantees is what President Zelenskyy says are needed. What would your advice for the Ukrainian president be?

VO: I would say that main focus should should be make Ukraine strong. Because we already have had in our history many security guarantees, including taking away our nuclear weapons in exchange for a Budapest Memorandum. It didn't work well, frankly, saying. So, only together with our allies from NATO and European Union, we can make Ukraine strong internally. And also make Ukraine as a shield of Europe against tribes from the East.

NK: You know, we were hearing from, from the administration, specifically the defense secretary, earlier this week about, you know, that it's not realistic to think that there's going to be pre-war borders here for Ukraine. How does that rhetoric, those assertions sit with you?

VO: We heard a lot of statements from the new U.S. administration in the course of one day, and some of them were contradicting each other. It makes me think that there is no clear plan or past developed. And Washington is also looking for right solution right now. I'm very happy that my president met the vice president of the United States. I'm very happy that we are in Munich, are able to talk about the future of Europe. So, it's not exactly Munich of 1938. And I do believe that there will be strong regional leadership of the United Kingdom, a new Germany after election, France, together with Ukraine, to settle new rules in Europe. And also, we will be able together establish a new relationship with the United States. Regardless of all those statements and messages we hear from Washington now that they changed their focus to Pacific and Europe is not a prime issue. But I believe that all together we can tackle the situation in the world. If we do it separately, it will be great challenge for all of us.

NK: Does the fact that there are so many mixed messages from this administration, and you are in the middle of this war still, does that concern you, though, that there isn't a clear plan at this stage? Lots of promises about ending things really quickly, but no clear plan.

VO: Absolutely. Because Ukrainian soldier in the trenches has no choice to discuss the situation with the enemy. He has to fight, or she has to fight. And by talking, we're simply taking lives of Ukrainians. But I understand the situation Washington is in right now. It's a new team in power. They would like to develop their own future. Unfortunately, they come from the same belief that some deal is possible with Russia. It's a typical mistake of any president to reload relations with Russia. And then, at the end of his term, he comes to the situation that there is no talks possible with Kremlin. But I hope that this passage of this transition to the reality will come much smoother and faster as it used to be in the past.

NK: You were injured yourself last year. How are you doing?

VO: You know, it's much better to be alive, frankly, I think. And I survived after two Russian aviation bombs. So, it takes a while to, for rehabilitation, but in good shape. You have to compare believing that.

NK: Given what you know about what is happening on the front lines, what you've experienced on those front lines, and what this new administration is saying and doing at this point., Does peace feel closer or further away?

VO: You know, peace is in the air. But we shall not be very much focused on that because the war is ongoing. In my humble opinion, Russia will not keep the promise, as it did in 2014, 2015, when they were promising peace after a brutal intervention, but then broke all words given to European Union, to ukraine, and the United States. So, the best situation to be ready for peace is to be well-prepared for big war.

NK: Be prepared for a big war.

VO: Yup. Yup. If we are prepared, we will not be attacked. Actually, I totally support Trump that European nations should increase their military expenditures, at least to five per cent of their GDP. Then Russia will not challenge West, and not be ready to progress by military means.

NK: Major, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

VO: Thank you for having me.

CH: Volodymyr Omelyan is a former Ukrainian Infrastructure minister. He now serves as a major in the Ukrainian armed forces. We reached him in Kyiv.

[classic rock]

Kennedy Center Musical

Guest: Michael Kooman

CH: It's been two days now since U.S. President Donald Trump officially became the chair of the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. And the fallout has been swift. On Wednesday, the newly overhauled board of the Washington-based organization fired president Deborah Rutter -- who led the center for the past decade. And that was followed by a flurry of resignations and performance cancellations by high-profile artists, many of whom cited the center's new leadership, and shifting values. Amid the chaos, Michael Kooman and his collaborators got some devastating news: the Kennedy Center had decided to cancel a planned two-year tour of their musical, Finn. We reached Mr. Kooman in New York City.

NK: Michael, you received this, this call about your show on Wednesday, as I understand it. How did that conversation go?

MICHAEL KOOMAN: We were pretty devastated. We were told that this show, which had mostly sold out, which was financially successful, which received 100 per cent rave reviews, and a two-year tour planned, was suddenly canceled. And we're still reeling. But we're also figuring out how to move forward.

NK: And what did they tell you other than it's canceled?

MK: We were called by the people who commissioned the show and the department, and they cited financial reasons. And also, that was sort of out of nowhere as well. But it's, it's, it's, it's hard to ignore the context in which the cancellation has been made. Again, the show itself was quite successful, and they were not only willing to do a tour for one year, which is the normal way they do it. They wanted to do a two-year tour because they felt that not only would it be successful, but that it was a message that children and families around the country should hear.

NK: What is Finn about?

MK: Finn is the story of a shark who is growing up in a shark pack where he doesn't feel like he fits in. The shark pack is very stoic. The shark pack emphasizes strength and power. And then, he has a chance encounter with a fish who is very colorful, and vibrant, and joyful. And this fish brings out parts of Finn that he didn't feel like he could explore before that. And, ultimately, Finn realizes that maybe, at heart, he is a fish, not a shark.

NK: And there are also elements of drag in the show. The U.S. president has said explicitly that he does not want to see that at the Kennedy Center. So, given that this news came even before the firings and appointments, new appointments at the Kennedy Center became official, was this something, at least in the back of your mind, or in the pit of your stomach that you thought could happen?

MK: Yes, we certainly felt with the new administration that it would be tricky to tell this story, which is very much about acceptance and inclusivity, and definitely uses elements of drag in costuming. But however, is not in any way, shape or form a drag show. It's a theatrical storytelling technique in the same way that we use rock music to tell the story of the sharks. So, of course, as any theatre storytelling piece does, we draw from the world around us to tell the story of, in this case, a shark who thinks he's a fish.

NK: You've said a couple of things that can signal to, to our audience how the Kennedy Center helps creators such as yourself and your team. Many people may know the Kennedy Center for, for the big production they do every year, the Kennedy Center Honors. But how does it help smaller creators and groups such as yourself to keep producing?

MK: Well, the Kennedy Center does a lot of work for arts advocacy, and specifically the theatre department, which I'm most familiar with, commissions new works for young audiences that they think are worth exploring. And they also pick one of their shows every year, sometimes every other year, to do a nationwide tour. They, part of that, the thinking behind that is, okay, this is a show that is a high-quality show. This is a message we believe in and we think this message is important to kids and families across America. It's a message they might not be hearing themselves or seeing themselves in their own community. And so, part of this Kennedy Center program is providing at a very low cost to these local communities a chance for kids to have a really positive first interaction with theatre.

NK: More broadly, you know, across the artistic community, at least in your circles, what are you hearing? How are these changes sitting with people?

MK: Well, the mood is somber. I think censorship of art does not create good art. But more importantly, as we're exploring options going forward with Finn, we've already heard some people say that that it would be risky to associate their theatre with Finn because the theater is nonprofit. And so, it's hard to come to grips with how that might be hurting the country or hurting families. And it's hard not to interpret it as a silencing of the message.

NK: And not a financial decision, as they've said.

MK: I certainly, it doesn't seem to be a financial decision from where I'm sitting and from what I know.

NK: We've seen big stars, you know, either cancel productions that were slated to play there, Issa Rae being one. Others, such as Shonda Rhimes, Renee Fleming, the opera star, stepping down from, from their posts. Is that the kind of response that, that you are pleased to see at this stage?

MK: I am not sure what the correct response is right now. I mean, I myself am still reeling from the directional change of what we thought was going to happen with this show. I think, I think it makes sense to, to remove yourself from a situation where you're not going to be respected or you're going to be censored if your art is very much about telling a story, or perhaps telling a story that isn't often told in our society. So, everyone makes their own decision. And I think I respect those decisions that those people made, for sure.

NK: What will happen with, with Finn now?

MK: Well, we have been overwhelmed with the outpouring of support from, about Finn from across the country, and even across the world. I think that we are mobilizing, and we are excited about this very different direction forward, but seemingly very positive and possibly very big future forward. So, I think this is just the beginning for Finn.

NK: Michael, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

MK: Thank you. My pleasure.

CH: Michael Kooman is a co-creator of the musical Finn. We reached him in New York City.

[hip-hop]

Chimp Mating Dialects

Guest: Catherine Crockford

CH: It's Valentine's Day. And if you forgot until now that it was Valentine's Day, yes, I'm sure a new deodorant and a thing of Twizzlers from the convenience store will be a fine gift. But everyone who remembered is probably drawing from the same traditional gifts and activities: flowers, chocolates, a fancy dinner, a bubble bath, some Enya. What no one will be doing is shaking a tree branch at their partner. No one human, anyway -- because a new study shows that that's just one of many gestures that chimpanzees use to ask for sex. Catherine Crockford is co-author of the study. We reached her in Lyon, France.

NK: Catherine, how are male chimps going about trying to get some? How are they asking the female chimps for sex?

CATHERINE CROCKFORD: [laughing] Well, the, the interesting thing is that chimps can ask female sex, for sex in different ways.

NK: Yeah?

CC: You know, one might think that they just have one signal because it's a really important context, right? The female needs to understand, right? Because otherwise, they don't get to reproduce. But actually, the interesting thing is that they have, like, a whole suite of gestures that they could choose from. And this particular research is about the gestures that they use with a sound. So, for example, they tap on something, and it's the knocking sound that attracts females’ attention.

NK: So, those are a couple of ways. And geography plays into this. There are some gestures you saw replicated in different places, and there are some that, that you saw in only some regions, right?

CC: Right, exactly. So, in our field site in Ivory Coast, the Thai Chimpanzee Project, which is in the Thai National Park in Ivory Coast, we have fou r habituated communities of chimpanzees, which is pretty rare. And what we find is that although these communities neighbor each other, they sometimes have different signals to ask for sex, even though they're only five kilometres away from the other community. You know, one thing is this is really super interesting because we know for a while that chimpanzees, they have different traditions when it comes to tool use, right? But this is the first time we found it in a communicative signal that they have these different traditions, even though they're so close together geographically. So, the knuckle knock, drumming on an object with both hands, a heel kick?

CC: Right, heel kick the other one, right? So, so the knuckle knocks, they, you know, they're sitting in a branch, and they might just tap that branch with their knuckle. Or, in another community, they won't do it with their knuckle, but they'll tap the branch instead with the heel. The interesting thing is that the only way this can really come about because there's gene flow between these communities, right? And they live in the same kind of habitat. So, the only way that this can come about is that the young males must learn from watching the older males which signals that they're using. Because in great apes, and in primates in general, it's thought the signaling is pretty fixed, which has left this real conundrum for how language evolved, right? Because they're our closest living relatives. And if are signaling is so flexible, why is there's so fixed? But now, we start finding that there is actually some flexibility, and there is some social learning in these gestural signals, which is really interesting.

NK: And one of your coauthors talked about these chimps using specific gestures when they, quote, want a sneaky copulation on the side, [chuckling] a clandestine encounter. Are they using the specific gestures we've talked about, or is there another set that they use for, for that kind of situation?

CC: Yeah. Well, actually, these are the signals they use for the sneakies.

NK: Oh, okay.

CC: Because they're quite discreet. So, if you are as, you know, the alpha male, he can mate with whoever he wants whenever he wants. And he gets at least half of the offspring, right? But the subordinate males, they want to have that go. [NK chuckles softly] But, you know, they can't if the alpha male spots them. But if they use these little, these knocking sounds, right, then, hopefully, the female, it'll get her attention. But he may be out of earshot. And even if he hears, he won't know who it is because they're not vocalizing. So, you know, if they vocalize, you can immediately tell who it is from their voice. But if they're just knocking, then, you know, he might hear them. But by the time he's rushed over to beat somebody up, they run away.

NK: Your research also underlines that this kind of cultural behaviour can disappear because of poaching or other human interference. And there's one case in particular that you underline. But what are you trying to, to point out there with that part of your research?

CC: Yeah. I mean, that, that is the sad truth that that these populations are under extreme threat. So, in Ivory Coast and across West Africa, most of the forest is already being cut. In Ivory Coast, it is the biggest cocoa producer. And so, that, that's why the forest is being cut. But our chimpanzees are in a national park. It is a World Heritage site, and it is a designated biodiversity hotspot. And even that cannot stop it from illegal poachers emptying out that forest. And they hand everything because the local culture is to eat, is to eat bushmeat of all different types of animals. So, our chimpanzees are direct targets. If they're found, they will be shot. The sad thing is that we now know that not only does it kill chimpanzees, but it kills the cultures. So, they lose these you know, they can lose these particular signals. Or they can lose the ability to crack nuts or use sticks. And these cultures can take generations to, to emerge, we think. You know, if you lose those skills, and then it might actually impact your survival.

NK: Does this research change how you look at human behaviour and human relationships? We are speaking on, on Valentine's Day, after all.

CC: [ both chuckling]That's a really interesting question. Actually, it's funny because some chimpanzees, they really do develop these romantic relationships. So, there is some lovely teenage anecdotes where you may get young females who are just starting to have this swellings, and they're just starting to be attracted to the guys. And the big guys, you know, they're not, you know, too excited. But the young guys, you know, they are. And so, the, you get these little teenage romances with, between the young guys. And the females and they'll kind of turn up late to the food tree. And when they're resting, they might hold hands.

NK: [both chuckle] Sweet to watch unfold, yes?

CC: It is. It is. It's, it's very, it's, it's very nice to watch. [chuckling].

NK: Catherine, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

CC: Well, thank you very much, and happy Valentine's Day.

NK: To you as well.

CH: Catherine Crockford is the head of the The Great Ape Social Mind Lab at the ISC, or Institut des Sciences Cognitives, in Lyon, France -- and that's where we reached her.

[folk]

Banana Wall Returns

CH: Last night, in the British village of Sonning, you might have thought you were hearing things outside.

[tape stretches]

CH: Were you asleep and dreaming this implausible racket? Or were you very much awake, and actually hearing what you were afraid to believe you were hearing: the unmistakable sound of someone duct-taping bananas to walls? [sound fades] And when you awoke the next morning, you realized to your astonishment that you hadn't been dreaming at all, when you saw the newspaper headline: "Artist Tapes Masterpieces Around Town, Solves All Financial Problems Forever!" It's true: a guerrilla artist named Impro gave Sonning a gift of tens of millions of dollars. In the form of a number of bananas duct-taped to walls. You probably remember that, in 2019, the Italian artist Maurizio Cattelan created a work called "Comedian" -- which is a banana duct-taped to a wall. It's a conceptual joke that works on multiple levels, or none, depending on your viewpoint. And now, it's part of the joke that, last November, a crypto bro bought one of the three editions of "Comedian" for the equivalent of nearly $9 million Canadian. Impro, the guerrilla artist, did the math. And then he did the art. And then he put that art around Sonning. And then he delivered the following message. Quote: "...I have graced Sonning with bona fide, international standard fine art worth, in total, 24-point-8 million pounds at auction. The sale of just one of these masterpieces would be more than enough to get them their new church roof and to Sonningians I would say, 'you're welcome!'" Unquote. Congratulations, Sonning. You're all set now. And good thinking to Impro -- although ultimately, this idea was low-hanging fruit.

[surf rock]

Part 2: Toronto Coyote Attacks, Little Ice Age

Toronto Coyote Attacks

Guest: Ann Selvanayagam

CH: Coyotes in Toronto -- or pretty much anywhere else -- are not a new phenomenon. But recently, they’ve gone from being an occasional annoyance in downtown neighbourhoods to a genuine and regular threat. Earlier this week, coyotes attacked six dogs in Toronto's Liberty Village and Fort York neighborhoods. And since November, residents have experienced dozens of coyote attacks -- which prompted a community meeting last night. A coyote went after Ann Selvanayagam's five-year-old terrier mix while she was walking him this week. We reached her in Toronto.

NK: Ann, how often are you personally seeing coyotes in your neighbourhood?

ANN SELVANAYAGAM: There's definitely been an uptick in sightings since November. So, from November to, I want to say January, it's gradual. I was, actually, me and my pup were actually approached in early December. However, I was able to scoop my dog up immediately. The coyote didn't get close. He then just started smelling, like, the area where my dog, you know, went pee. And so, I grabbed him. I slowly started backing away and went into the Enercare building, and that was all good.

NK: That was the first time?

AS: Well, we've seen them, I've been in this area since 2018, and I've seen them, I see them all the time. But that was the first time where it approached us.

NK: And just to locate things for our listeners who don't know the Toronto area, or live in this area, you live in the Fort York neighbourhood, and you know, there's certainly a bit of green space, but we're talking about a lot of condos. There's not a lot of trees and greenery.

AS: No, no, not at all. Like, this is as urban as it gets, right? It's still considered downtown Toronto.

NK: And so, I imagine that you are not expecting to see, [chuckle] to see coyotes once, let alone as many times as you have.

AS: No, because it's also a major route for, like, busses. And there's, like, a major hotel. It's, there's, like, a concert hall. Like, it's a, it's very tight. No, I definitely wasn't. Like, yes, there's grass. Yes, there's trees and a few bushes. But that's about it.

NK: And then earlier this week, your dog was actually attacked. Can you tell us what happened?

AS: Yeah. So, we went out at about 8:30 for our usual quick bathroom break. And I always do a scan every time I go out. Just, its bare trees, and there's a small children's park there. And I did a 360 scan, as I usually always do at that time of day. There was commotion at the front of my building. And so, I just glanced over for about five seconds, and I looked back. And then, there was a coyote that was 10 feet away from me. And then, he was in prey mode, I guess. And it was, and mind you, this is, this happened within two seconds. And then he, like, jumped towards us. And I see his mouth goes into my dog.

NK: You must have been terrified?

AS: Oh, I was absolutely. I was shaking. I was trying to kick him off, screaming. There's three or four other owners that are coming over. This coyote is on, just like trying to pull my dog away. And mind you, like, I have a hands-free leash, which is one of those leashes that goes around your waist. And I got that specifically because a lot of the dogs that have been taken away, it's because the owner freaks out and drops the leash. Where there's four of us screaming, and then I managed to pick my dog up. And then, he lunged again. He clawed at my dog, and then got, was able to get a small bite in. And it wasn't until, like, my, a neighbour's boyfriend came over, who's tall, and he kind of made himself big. And that is what scared the coyote away. But the fact that there was five of us screaming at this coyote did not faze him.

NK: How is your dog doing now?

AS: So physically, he's getting better. I took him to the vet yesterday, and his wounds are getting better. But mentally, he's not the same. Like, he hasn't, he hasn't slept more than half-an-hour. Every sound just like makes him alert. When we are outside, he just, like, shakes.

NK: You're trying to adapt to, to what's been unfolding. I know you also joined a neighbourhood group about coyote safety. There was a town hall meeting, a virtual one, hosted by the local city councilor, Ausma Malik. Did you leave that meeting feeling that your concerns have been addressed? That, that things are going to be done by the city?

AS: No. So, we were, so there was about 200 of us on the call. And none of our questions were addressed at all. The one takeaway that they wanted for us to do is to carry a garbage bag around and to run towards a coyote. All of us, you know, different people were kind of chiming in, saying that absolutely ridiculous. Like, we, you can't put that on residents to attack a coyote. And actually, a woman was attacked by a coyote in the summer. It just, like, for that to be the only recommendation from the Toronto Wildlife and from the city of Toronto is just unacceptable.

NK: And the garbage bag method they're talking about is to, is to fill it with air and pop it to make noises to scare the coyote, right?

AS: Yeah, to haze the coyote, yeah.

NK: The city has increased patrols in Fort York and Liberty Village. That's a, that's a neighbouring community of condos as well. They say they're fixing holes in the fencing along the railway corridor there to try to stop the coyotes from using these neighbourhoods as, as pathways on their treks. What else would you like the city to do here?

AS: That, none of that is working. The coyotes, at this point, are way too comfortable. Like, prior to the development at Ontario Place, whenever we would see a coyote, it would, it would be from a far distance, and it would scatter away. Like, they've been here for, you know, many years. I've been here since 2018, and we've always been able to coexist. But it's at a point now that because their home was destroyed, they're moving into the residence areas. Like, even just last night, there was three coyotes at the schoolyard and the dog park, just, like, circling the area.

NK: The Toronto Wildlife Centre has said that this is, this is happening in part because of human behaviour, feeding coyotes, leaving dogs off leash as well.

AS: Yeah.

NK: Clearly, you and your neighbours are, as we've said, doing things to try to keep yourself safe. But, but have you seen that kind of activity that the Toronto Wildlife Centre is pointing to? Do you think people are doing their part?

AS: I would say 90 to 95 per cent of people are. We cannot control every single human being. And for them to put that on the small percentage of people, like, all of these attacks that have happened, the deaths that happened, all of these dogs were on leash.

NK: So, what would you like to see the city do?

AS: Either relocate or euthanize these coyotes.

NK: Have you, did they say anything on that call about, I'm sure people, people raise those, those options.

AS: Yeah.

NK: And not everyone will agree with those methods. But in terms of relocation, did they say they're trying to capture them?

AS: They say that that's a really hard task to do. And that the resources aren't going to be provided for that.

NK: You mentioned you're making some changes. If this persists, ad the population were, were even to grow, have you have you considered relocating?

AS: Yes, that's my main, that's the main thing I'm focusing on now, especially with the lack of city, like, the fact that they're like, oh, we're sending two guys walking around. Like, that's not a solution. And even, like, last night, a neighbour posted a video of one of the parks. There was no, there was three coyotes that were walking, like, really close to the sidewalk stalking, and there was no one in sight. And it's also impossible to expect bylaw officers to track down coyotes, considering how many there are, and, and how they move.

NK: Ann, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

AS: Thank you.

CH: That was Ann Selvanayagam. She joined a neighbourhood-run Coyote Safety Coalition group in Toronto after her dog was attacked by a coyote this week. She’s in Toronto.

[funk]

Anthem Singer

CH: In the past, there have been times when standing for the national anthem has felt a little like a chore. But suddenly, it's a hot topic -- and the song itself is more stirring than ever. As U.S. President Donald Trump continues to repeat absurd suggestions that Canada should become the 51st state, Canadians continue to not want to become the 51st state. And they're letting that be known at sporting events across both countries. Canadians are booing The Star-Spangled Banner, and enthusiastically belting out O Canada. Which is challenging for the singers -- including 15-year-old Kyra Daniel of Kingston, Ontario in the middle of the drama. She sang both anthems at a recent Toronto Raptors home game against the Los Angeles Clippers. And she told the CBC it was hard to sing through the boos.

SOUNDCLIP

KYRA DANIEL: My parents kind of warned me that it could happen. And I, yes, I did go into it being like, okay, it's a possibility. I just wasn't expecting it to be immediate, you know? Because I sang. As soon as I started singing the American anthem, it was like kind of really loud, and just started right away. And it kind of caught me off guard. It was definitely difficult to sing through. I can't pretend like it wasn't. I mean, it was, it was definitely something to throw me off because the anthem is tough. Normally, just because you're alone, and there's no, like, there's nothing accompanying you, right, when you're singing. So, you got to start on key, you got to stay on your pitch throughout the whole song. And having the crowd react like that was kind of difficult just because I had to get through the song without kind of going off key or like messing up in any way. So, yeah, I tried my best to stay on with it, and I'm glad that I got to finish it off strong, for sure.

KEVIN MAIMANN: Yeah. And then, obviously, the mood shifted very quickly into cheers. What was that, that must have been a bit of a roller coaster for you?

KD: Yeah, I would say it was a complete switch in, like, energy. Just because the booing was so loud with Star Spangled Banner, and it was, it kind of just went on the entire song, you know? So, as soon as I took my breath and started singing O Canada, kind of, all the cheering started, obviously, and people were singing along really loudly and very passionately as well. So, it definitely felt a lot better to have the cheering and, like, the passion along with O Canada. I have plans to go back in March for the Raptors, actually. And, I mean, I've been doing it for them for two years now I've been doing it. So, it's something that I just really enjoy doing. Everybody, the players, the staff, everybody there at the arena is so lovely. And, yeah, the booing and stuff definitely will stop me from going back. And I know now what to expect, which kind of gives me a bit of an advantage, I guess, just because I know what it feels like, and I know what it sounds like, if that makes sense? So, yeah, I'll definitely be back. And I can't wait to go back. It's going to be super fun.

CH: That was Kyra Daniel talking to the CBC's Kevin Maimann.

[island music]

Little Ice Age

Guest: Tudor Caciora

CH: Diary entries are meant to be private. It's the only way we'd ever spill out all our complaints, and emotion, and angst. So, it may feel a little iffy at first that a group of researchers in Eastern Europe were willing to break that diary-writer oath of secrecy. But it's mostly okay because it's in the name of science. And these people have been dead for five centuries. Scientists combed through diaries and other old documents in hopes of discovering how people in 16th century Transylvania -- which is part of modern-day Romania -- experienced the cooling period called the Little Ice Age. Tudor Caciora is one of the authors of the study. We reached him in Oradea, Romania.

NK: Tudor, this is, this is very interesting reading to say the least. I just want to read a short passage from 1529. Famine, rain, and plague were an issue in Brașov. And the passage says, quote, The only method of prophylaxis was running away, unquote. Was there really no way to avoid disease at that time? Or was the writer being dramatic, as sometimes people do in their diaries?

TUDOR CACIORA: Yeah. Of course, that plague at the time, it was a huge problem in Europe, not only in Transylvania, but in the whole Europe. So, in some cases, yeah, it was extremely hard. So, only the running was as a last idea, let's say, to escape from the disease. Nowadays, you know, what a good time to be alive, comparing to the 16th century. [both chuckle]

NK: You know, it doesn't always feel like that for people. But this does help put it into perspective a little bit. Are there other passages or lines from these diaries that you, that stand out to you? That you really cannot forget?

TC: So, I have one which says, like, the poor harvest of the rainy years. And the typical weather in the autumn of 1553 and the winter towards '54, sunny if it had been spring caused the malnutrition that facilitate the terrible plague epidemic of the 1553-54. So, from this passage, it's crystal clear for me that even at the time, they knew that the weather play a crucial role not only in low harvesting, which are connecting further, connect further with high prices and famine. But also, with the spreading of the epidemics, the disease, yeah.

NK: They knew how important weather was. I mean, their lives really did depend on, livelihoods and lives, depended on it, certainly.

TC: Yeah.

NK: What made you want to do this research, and look at these firsthand accounts, these diary entries, on weather in the first place? What drew you to that? What were you hoping to find out?

TC: What we wanted to do, it is to recreate the variation of the climate during the Little Ice Age. But not like an ordinary study analyzing the proxy datas, like the ice cores, the sediments, pollens, or tree rings. But to have a more human-centred approach. I mean, to see how the people at the time felt the climate.

NK: And as you were combing through the entries, and you put this research together, what did you end up learning about the Little Ice Age that you didn't know before?

TC: What we learned from this is the fact that comparing to the Western Europe in which there were many, many documents, many datasets, and they did such kind of studies, comparing to those, in the 16th century in the Western Europe, they tend to report cold weather. In the in the East, in Transylvania especially, people tend to report more warm weather. So, this makes us think that the Little Ice Age could manifest a bit earlier in the Western Europe compared to the East.

NK: As I understand it, there was less information known. Well, you've been saying as well about this time period in Eastern Europe compared to Western Europe. Why was there less information?

TC: Of course, especially because at the time the people were not literated. Just a few of them in Eastern Europe, especially in Transylvania, knew how to read and write, comparing to the Western Europe, where the literation rate was much higher.

NK: So, there's a clue there that, that obviously, those who, who were literate were the ones writing these diaries, keeping these journals. Just tell us a little bit about who they were.

TC: So, the priests, especially the priests, were the ones who knew how to read and write at the time. There were some chronicles from the high-educated people. At the same time, we use some journals, some diaries from the foreign travelers who travel Romania. There were many battles on the field of, on the territory of Transylvania in the 16th century. So, all the armies had people who write about the events. And sometimes, they write about, also about the climate.

NK: Those are all people with very, very different experiences, you know, in terms of what they're doing -- priests, soldiers, travelers. Did you see overlap in what they were describing, or differences?

TC: Most of the time. Most of the time, it's overlapping. But sometimes, the details are contradictory. Let's say that a priest is reporting cold weather, and a traveler is reporting warm weather 100 kilometres away or so in the same period. So, they are contradictory.

NK: Right, so you can't use those.

TC: We cannot use them. For something. Yeah. Yeah. They are reporting cold winter, and the others, they are reporting mild winter, or even warm winter. So, we cannot use those.

NK: Do you think that any of these folks imagined that their diaries would one day be read and even studied scientifically?

TC: [chuckling] I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so. [chuckling]

NK: No one wrote "Dear Diary", or "Dear Scientists", I hope you're reading this? [laughing]

TC: Not really. Not really.

NK: They had bigger problems, obviously.

TC: Well, of course, they had bigger problems than the thing that sometime 500 years after, a mad scientist will, will use that in order to recreate a variation of the climate. [chuckling]

NK: Tudor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

TC: Thank you so much.

CH: Tudor Caciora is a climatologist at the University of Oradea. And we reached him in Oradea, Romania.

[folk]

Rosanne Casimir

CH: In 2021, the discovery of more than 200 potential unmarked graves at the site of the former Kamloops Indian Residential School sent shockwaves across Canada. The preliminary findings sparked nationwide protests, and calls to honour and remember the victims of the residential school system. Earlier this week, the former residential school was declared a national historic site. It was nominated for designation by members of Tk̓emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation. This week, the CBC's Jenifer Norwell went to the former residential school and spoke to Chief Rosanne Casimir of the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc about what this new designation will mean.

SOUNDCLIP

ROSANNE CASIMIR: This is it for residential schools. And this is a piece of cultural heritage that we want to always have remembered. And, you know, for us, it is hugely significant because it's a piece of history looking at the architecture, to recognizing the historical importance and significance of, you know, the traumas that have happened to the survivors of the residential school and all those that attended. My grandmother attended the residential school, and same with my mother. They're both, you know, no longer here. And I also have siblings who have also, you know, attended this residential school. And, you know, I know that they all have their, their story, their history, but it's also their pain and their trauma. And, you know, I know that, you know, coming to this space, I know for many, they don't like to, and they don't come here. But I also know that for some, it's about reclamation, reclaiming their inner child, their spirits, and, and bringing them back to who they are to this day.

JENNIFER NORWELL: The Nation for many years has been committed to use this space. I'm thinking about other Nations, you know, Port Alberni, some other folks who decided, look, we don't want our former residential schools. We want to tear down these spaces, make something new. Walk me back to why the Nation decided that this was something worth keeping.

RC: So, it was back in the mid-70s or so, when this here was one of the last residential schools to be still active. And prior to its closing down and shutting down the residential school, our community with leadership, wanted to reclaim, reclaim the lands, but also reclaim the school. Leadership took it to the membership, and went through a referendum and a vote, but also talks about the significance of keeping this history alive, but being able to educate the world the impacts of the residential school. This is literally on the map now. And, you know, we know that for so many when they're going to come here, what they're going to see is they're going to see historical architecture. They're going to see and learn about the impacts and the traumas that so many have experienced in residential school. But they're also going to be able to see a community whose resilient, and about wanting to teach and educate the world the importance of reclamation and revitalization.

CH: That was Chief Rosanne Casimir of the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation, talking to Jenifer Norwell of Daybreak Kamloops.

[sombre instrumental]

Part 3: Encore: Ted Nolan

Alaska Mayor

CH: Things between Canada and the U.S. are pretty fraught right now. And while politicians say they're working on tariffs or ways of counteracting tariffs, and businesses brainstorm contingency plans, Tom Morphet is sending letters. Letters of appreciation. Mr. Morphet is the mayor of Haines, Alaska. He and the town's assembly wanted to let the mayors of Whitehorse and Haines Junction in the Yukon -- less than 300 kilometres away -- that the views being expressed by officials, and presidents, in Washington D.C. are not the views they hold. Mayor Morphet told the CBC why he needed to put pen to paper.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM MORPHET: We, [chuckling] we've been friends and trading partners for thousands of years up here, right? Like, the Southern Tutchone and the Tlingits have, you know, done it for a long time -- thousands of years.

ELYN JONES: Yeah, long before those artificial borders that are there now.

TM: Yeah. I think they were set by, like, Russia and England. [both laughing].

EJ: Right, gosh! So, tell us more about what you wrote. What did you say in your letter?

TM: We're grateful for having the close relationship that we have. We have a bunch of people in our town that were born up there, right? After our clinic stopped delivering babies, quite a few Haines moms went up there, and Canada graciously allowed us to use their healthcare system to have our children there. And a couple of years ago, we had a landslide in our town. It killed a couple of people. And Whitehorse just cut us a cheque for, I think, $15,000, just like that, unsolicited. You know, you don't get better friends than that.

EJ: And you host many events that we like to go to. How, you know, how important are our visits to your economy?

TM: I'd say they're critical. We have a bike race. Probably 80 per cent are Canadian. It's the biggest event of the year in our town. You folks come down to fish. We go out to ski. A lot of Loonies and Toonies in our cash registers. And on another level, our public radio station, we play Ian Tyson, and Stompin' Tom Connors, and Tim Hudson. You know, there's a northern identity that we have more in common up here than, than either of us do with our countrymen down south. It's kind of who we are. And, yeah, we've got no problem with the beaver as a proud, noble animal. [EJ laughs]

CH: That was Tom Morphet, mayor of Haines, Alaska, speaking to Elyn Jones, host of Yukon Morning today.

[ambient electronic]

Encore: Ted Nolan

CH: As this point, it's safe to say that U.S.-Canada relations are not at their best. Instead of friends and allies, it's starting to feel more like we're rivals, coming at each other with a lot of historical baggage -- and a determination to come out on top at any cost. Wait.. I just realized it sounds [chuckling] like I'm talking about the imminent trade war. So, I should clarify that I'm actually talking about hockey. Tomorrow, in the Four Nations Face-Off, Canada will play the U.S. in a highly anticipated matchup. With NHL games on hold, it's the first time in almost a decade that fans will see the best players from each nation compete against each other. It's high-stakes -- but only in the context of sports. And given the political tension between our two countries these days, a hockey game will be a welcome escape. That's why Ted Nolan was drawn to play: because it offered him an escape. Mr. Nolan is an Ojibwe hockey player and coach whose book, Life In Two Worlds: A Coach's Journey from the Reserve to the NHL and Back came out in 2023. It's the story of his childhood growing up as one of twelve kids in Garden River First Nation in Northern Ontario. And of an unlikely NHL career that had more than its fair share of rough patches. From Our Archives, here's Ted Nolan's conversation with Nil about that incredible journey.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Ted, welcome back to the show.

TED NOLAN: Well, thanks very much for having me on, Nil.

NK: Before we get back to that pivotal season with the Buffalo Sabres our listeners just heard about, I was wondering if you could take me back. You know, it was quite moving to read in the book that moment when you first laced up a pair of ice skates in Garden River.

TN: Well, I tell you, that's when, when we all, I guess, we all reflect back on certain parts of our life. And in certain parts are very memorable. And, you know, growing up in Garden River, you know, making that first, first sheet of ice in my, my backyard with a pale of water and skating over the moonlight, I tell you, those were wonderful memories of the freedom of the sport. I, I'm a big baseball fan. And I loved playing baseball. But unfortunately, in northern Ontario, our baseball seasons were very short, and we didn't have a chance to, but hockey was one of those, one of those spots. Like I said, we all have escape mechanisms to avoid some of the things that don't work out very well in life. And hockey is just one of those escapes. I just went out, and I skated on the ponds in the back, and the, the rivers and the, and the self-made rink. And that's where I fell in love with the game.

NK: What do you think you were escaping from? Because I was quite moved by how you described, how loved you felt and your admiration for your parents, their warmth, what they instilled in you.

TN: Yeah. You know, I was escaping, you know, on, on the flip side of that, there were some moments where, you know, with, with the residential school and the mental health and the trauma that, that affected people. And there was, there was a lot of drinking in our house also. That's when the, the happy stories that they were starting to tell. The more they drank, then all of a sudden, the dark stories came out. Then they start talking about the injustices that, that happened. And all of a sudden, there's tears and all of a sudden there's, that's when, you know, when you're you're sitting in a bed, you hear, you know, some arguing, you hear some chairs turning over, you hear some loud yelling. So just kind of, you put your pillow over your head, and you try to, try to forget about it. But when it happened during the early evenings, then that's when I escaped, went for a run or played hockey.

NK: Yeah. Yeah. You described that feeling -- that deep love. And, you know, you didn't have to look for friends because your siblings were right there and you were this big, warm group. But you did say you didn't always feel safe. And sometimes that meant at school as well.

TN: Yeah, no question. We, I didn't go to residential schools, but I went to day schools, which started off on reserve. And, and that wasn't too, too pleasant. I went there for about two to three years. And then, we went to the city of Sault Ste. Marie, and they bused us all in. And getting off, and, and we looked a little bit different from everybody else. We, they served us lunch in a separate, separate area at the time. You know, they brought us into the nursing station, and they used to comb our hair with, with one of those fine tooth combs to make sure that we don't have any bed lice. They looked through our nails and checked us all over like we're, we're, like we're cattle before they, they released us into the main population with everybody else. So, you always felt a little bit different trying to fit in. But thank God we had our ourselves to, to really lean on during those early years.

NK: And there's you say right off in the beginning of the book some words your dad gave you that he would always tell you, and that you didn't really understand why he was focusing on that because you loved who you are and who, who your family is. But what did he tell you, and how did that help you during those times when, you know, the teachers and students weren't behaving as they should?

TN: You know, I've always from, from both my parents, they have always instilled in me to be proud of who I am. And, and we, we talked about our culture. And, and the, one of the sad, sad parts is, you know, they both spoke Ojibwe, but they never taught it to us. And they're so afraid because of what happened at residential schools that happened to other kids who, who spoke their language. And, you know, we just heard some horrific stories. So, they just didn't want that pain to go on us. But growing up, they always told us to, to fight who we are and be proud of who we are. And, and so, that's, my, my father said that to me 1,001 times. And I didn't know he was really preparing me for those tough times I was going to get to in the future.

NK: Yeah.

TN: Maybe, maybe he saw it in the sport itself. You know, they, he just, he just wanted to make sure I had fun. He'd just say, hey, you have fun today. And, and he wasn't looking at me to become an NHL player. I assumed at the time, but my brother told me a number of years later when he, when he passed away, that my father always thought that I could, I could play this game for a living. So, but he didn't tell me that. He just told me to have fun and to be proud of who I am.

NK: That really got me. That was one of the moments in the book that got me, that he always just said, have a great time. Did you have fun on the ice? There was none of that pressure. When you, you started playing hockey, you leave Garden River. First year in Sault Ste. Marie. But then, you go to Kenora, and that's a pivotal moment on a couple of fronts. But particularly difficult years. And when you were on our program before talking about those trading cards that, you know, that rookie card you were finally going to get, you talked about, you know, the sleepless, tearful nights. But Kenora was another level. Can you tell me a little bit about what you experienced there?

TN: It was a whole, it was a whole different level. Like I said, I grew up in, you know, hearing the stories, you know, hearing about the injustices. But I always, I always had faith in people that they're not all bad. People are not all bad. There are just some. So, I always had the faith that if you worked hard enough and if you did the right things, things would work out. And, and when I went to Kenora, I had that belief. And I was just thrilled. I thought I was going to Disney World. [NK chuckles] And then, when I got there, the reality of the, the environment at the time, it wasn't so pleasant. And people look at you, and all of a sudden, you have some fistfights in the parking lot. And then, you go to the hockey rink trying out for the team, and somebody would spear you and say, what are you doing here, you, you wahoo? And, you know, we have some fights in the team that I'm trying out for. I tell you, it was a really rude awakening to what was out there when you leave the reserve. And now, I look back at some of the kids who do leave, and I don't blame them why, why they, they ran back. And if my father was alive at the time, who knows? Maybe he would have, he would have said, hey, you're not having any fun. You should come home. And it, the game hockey, really changed for me, personally. I didn't enjoy going practice anymore. I didn't enjoy where I was living anymore, but I didn't want to quit. I wanted to persevere and fight through it. And, and, and, you know, writing letters, we didn't have a phone, so I was writing letters back home. I didn't want my, my family to, to know what I was going through. And I thought I could do it on my own. And I did, but I did it in a wrong way because I kept a lot of those, those feelings inside. And by doing that, I don't remember the, the whole year. I don't remember.

NK: No. That, that gives us all a sense of just how difficult, how traumatic it must have been. We want to play our listeners a clip. It's, it's a clip of your brother Steve speaking about some of the early years. And this is, this is from the 2009 documentary Ted Nolan: Behind the Bench.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE NOLAN: Ted and I, when we started in the Sault, we had to share our gloves and, and the helmet and stick every time we got off the ice. It was different shifts from each other, eh? So he was, you know, he could skate a little bit, play a little bit. And so, every time he'd go off, he'll drop his gloves, take his helmet off and give me the stick, and I'll go my turn. I can just imagine all those non-Native parents saying, oh, look at those cute little Indian kids out there have to shared their equipment, right? [chuckling].

NK: You guys had fun with it, clearly. But it does underline the, the difference in resources and how much more difficult it might be for someone without those resources to move up in the NHL.

TN: Oh, no, no, no question. I mean, that was just part of our, our upbringing. We had to share the things that we had. And, you know, times were a lot different. But I tell you, when you have to survive and do it, it was just natural. And so, we didn't feel like we're poor kids, and that's, that's the whole purpose of, of writing some of the things down. And in reflecting on it, I, I really wanted to try to educate people that, you know, we're all the same. And we all, all have emotions and feelings and wants and what have you. So, I just really, I just did it for the next generation of kids coming through that just be a little bit more accepting.

NK: You're listening to As It Happens and my conversation with former NHL coach Ted Nolan about his new book, Life in Two Worlds: A Coach's Journey from the Reserve to the NHL and Back Again. Ted, let's get to that moment where -- that draft moment -- because it's quite a moment in the book. I think you're playing cards with your family at home, and you've got the radio on. We love radio here at As It Happens. And these things are such huge events now. But what comes across the radio when you're sitting there at the table?

TN: Oh, you know, we're just playing cribbage. We always played cribbage. We sat down, drank tea and coffee, and we'd we sit down for hours and hours. And one day, we're, we're sitting down with my girlfriend -- who's my wife now -- and my mom. We're playing cribbage, and all of a sudden, on the radio, it came on that from the NHL draft local product Ted Nolan from Garden River just got drafted in the fifth round by the Detroit Red Wings. [NK chuckles] My mom really didn't know what draft was. And to tell you the truth, I didn't really know too much about it. But, you know, just with my father passing a couple of years before, times were a little lean. So, I didn't want to, I was excited as heck, to tell you.

NK: Sure! [chuckle]

TN: I didn't want to show my emotions in front of someone. And I just kind of washed it off and said, hmm, I wonder what that means? And we, about 10 minutes later, my wife -- my girlfriend at the time -- [both chuckle] we hopped into the car, we went up into the woods, and we, we, we let our emotions go where we would be able to scream. [NK chuckles] And, and I tell you, that was a, that was a moment. But it's a moment that you should be able to share with everyone.

NK: Yes.

TN: But at the time, you know, things weren't as happy as they should. So, that kind of squashes that, that moment for, for celebration.

NK: It's a beautiful moment in the book. I could picture you both -- you and Sandra -- screaming at, I think, you were standing on the hood of your car, if I, if I remember correctly, and yelling. But also, just to hear you talk about it, that's incredibly selfless at such a young age, Ted.

TN: Well, you know, when I, when I went to Kenora, too, in coming home at Christmas time, you know, everybody asked me how it was going? And I said, oh, you should see it. It's, it's a big town and we travel on bus. We go, so I, I kind of skimmed through what I, what I envisioned it to be when I left, but it wasn't bad when I got there. So, writing the book, I was just telling the, the fluffy parts, the good parts.

NK: Since you brought up your, your wife, Sandra, I understand she was the one who told you, if you're going to write this book, you have to lay it all out there. You have to tell the whole truth.

TN: Oh, no, no question. I mean that, you know, we all have guardian angels in our life, I believe. Someone to really watch over us because we, we wouldn't be talking about this. My, my career wouldn't have happened. And Sandra was only 16 years old when we met, and I was 18. And married now 40-something years. But, but going through what I went through early in my life, and feeling unsafe outside of the, outside of the reserve. And when I got drafted to the Detroit Red Wings, I went to the camp, and I left because I didn't feel like I fit in. And Ted Lindsay, thank God, he called me and asked me what the problem was? And he asked me to come back. But I would never have went back if, if Sandra said she wasn't going to come back with me. And really showed me the, the, really because I had it with my parents -- my family -- that unconditional love. But I never had it from outside of my family.

NK: I'm glad you found each other. And that is a powerful thing -- unconditional love. Because there were more tough times ahead, certainly. It's that, that journeyman hockey player life that, that you're into. And you describe the tension of that. Can you, can you tell our listeners what you mean by that tension and the difficulties of those years?

TN: Oh, it's very tough living in a small First Nation community, not understanding how hockey works and all the conditioning and all the, it takes, and I just kind of, I just kind of played, and I didn't know all that. And then, all of a sudden, you get with men and then you got to learn that aspect. And then, all of a sudden, there's some social aspect to the game when the guys want out to the, to the bar after practice. And you'd just kind of get involved with that. And, you know, living in the city, just a whole different reality that I was into. And I was ill-prepared to deal with it, except I was, I was good at what I, what I did, or I was good enough to play at that level. And I just managed to get through.

NK: Yeah, you were playing pretty well. But, at the end, you know, we talked about that high point when you found out about the draft and cheering. But then, in 1986, you have a back injury that later you find out is career-ending, and your reaction might surprise people. You were, you were excited about that. Tell us why.

TN: I was very excited about it because I didn't have to go through that anymore. You know, name-calling and physical attacks and fighting, sometimes even fighting with your own teammates. And some of the coaches making fun of how you stick-handle and turning the stick into a tomahawk and pretending that's the way I stick-handle. So, it was just so much to bear. And to tell you the truth, it seemed like I was holding my breath the whole time. From the time I got drafted, and trying to fit in and not just playing to enjoy it, but just trying to fit in and proving that you, that you're good enough to be there. And it takes its toll. It really does. And so, when I, when I got injured. You know, when the doctor finally told me, says Ted, looks like you might not be able to play because of your injury, I was, I was just thrilled to death when they told me I couldn't play. Because the one thing I didn't want to do was to quit. I didn't want to, I didn't want to quit. So I just persevered. But I was tired of persevering through it. I was, I was worn out and I just really wanted to be me.

NK: In the end, the ice does call you back, but in a different way. You realize that you really love coaching and moulding young players. How did that feel?

TN: You know, I feel really blessed in my life with certain things. When I went back to school at Lake Superior State University, I was so happy about the next chapter in my life. Then I ran into the coach of the Lake Superior State Lakers. His name was Frank Anzalone. And walked down the hallway, and he said, Ted, I understood you play pro hockey. Would you mind coming out to practice helping the young kids? I said, sure. And I went out, and I did that for a little while. Then, all of a sudden, you know, for some of the listeners out there who remember the name Phil Esposito.

NK: Umm-hmm.

TN: Happened to be from my home, near my hometown in Sault Ste. Marie, and he owned the Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds. And he asked, how come I'm doing that over there? You should be doing it over here. And I said, no one asked. [NK chuckles] And so, long story short, before I knew it, I'm standing behind the bench of the Sault Greyhounds as assistant coach. And I just, I just fell in love with coaching. And then, you know, a few, few months later, Phil asked if I'd be head coach. I didn't know what I was doing, but I just fell in love with it. I made everybody on our team feel as important as, as the star players did. So, I just really wanted to treat everybody the same and felt with it. And then we won. And that led into the next career of coaching.

NK: And our listeners heard off the top you were certainly good at it. You helped turn things around in a very big way as head coach of the Buffalo Sabres. And in 1997, you were rewarded for, for that and for all of your work. Let's just play a clip of that moment.

SOUNDCLIP

[clapping]

MAN: And the Jack Adams Award goes to... Ted Nolan.

[claps, cheers and funky jazz]

TN: Wow. I mean, you know, at, to start off, a couple of years ago, I was just really happy just to be in a league. And, and to stand here, [breaking down] it's unbelievable. But, wow, I'm just really, really thrilled to be here. There's a lot of people in my life that, that helped along the way. And, and I'd just like to thank Buffalo Sabres for giving me the opportunity to coach in the league. And, of course, know we can make it. Mario said it and, and a couple of other players said it, you know, family is so important, and I'd like to thank my family. Thinks.

[clapping, music fades back up]

NK: It's such an emotional and powerful moment. How does that moment sit with you now?

TN: You know, I was, I was, I was thrilled to, at that time, to, because, you know, when you, Nil, when you, when you worked your whole life and, and you fight through some of that stuff, then all of a sudden, you get to the, to the, the pinnacle of your, of your, of your career. And that's the NHL. That's the highest level you can go. And, all of a sudden, you win Coach of the Year. And I, like I said, at the time, it was just one of the moments I was so happy. And what I said, no one, no one does it by themselves, I just remember it all. And that's why I get so emotional. Because you remember all the people who went before you, and the residential school survivors, and, and in our elders, what they had to endure for us to be here. So, I was just, I was just over the moon. And I was just, just really, really thrilled to be at that point, at that time. And what happened after that, we can discuss later.

NK: Yeah, well, you know, you open your book with a very brief story of, of that award -- the trophy -- coming to your house. And it's not this joyous unboxing moment, right? You kick it down the stairs. So, for people who don't know your story, or have only heard rumours about it, why were you so angry at that moment -- instead of celebrating?

TN: You know, after the award, the Buffalo Sabres offered me this bad contract. It was the same thing that I made -- not even a penny a raise -- and I just felt they didn't want me. So, I turned it down, assuming that I would get another, another position, which, which never came except for Phil Esposito, did ask me to coach the Tampa Bay Lightning the following season. But my family was a little bit more important than, than a job. And so, I just turned it down and waited for the next one. I mean, I'd just won coach of the year. You'd think you'd get a job with, with anybody. But the answer to your question, it was just when, when you fought so hard and, all of a sudden, they take it away. And when that trophy came, it was just my state of mind at the time, my, my mental health going through all that stuff. It just represented everything that was, that was wrong in the sport. And I just kicked that thing as hard as I could and, not ever wanting to be involved with the sport again. And, you know, that was my, my mental state.

NK: To what extent do you think racism was the reason for what happened to you after that big win? When your career should have, in your view, kept going and going?

TN: You know, people would say a little differently, but I strongly believe that it was because of my my race. Nobody knew who I was. When I got to let go, no, everybody believed all the rumours out there insinuating that I did because they had to justify why to let me go. And I just felt if I was white, and if I was from a mainstream, I would, I would have one of the one of the colleagues call you because they all know each other. But when you have someone who looked like me, a little bit different, then you hear rumours about drinking and about coming to practice drunk and all. I mean that, that '74 loop in, but part of the book, I asked a former colleague of mine who he was part of another franchise in league that his GM told him that I was drinking at practice. I'm going what?! Unfortunately, it ruined my reputation. Nobody wanted to talk to me. I did have some, some interviews and, and what have you. But sometimes, they looked like they were just token interviews.

NK: There was, yeah, then you do get a really promising offer. I mean, they say they're going to announce it the next day. You tell Sandra, you're excited, and then you get a call. And when you hear that, those words, we decided to go in a different direction, what do you think now when you hear those words?

TN: Back when I got offered the job, they said, well, go get a new suit. We'll introduce you to draft tomorrow. I went and got a brand-new suit. I got a tie, and I was so excited. I couldn't tell anybody. Then, all of a sudden, a couple of hours later, I'm sitting down by myself, and I get a call from the general manager. He got overruled by the, by the owner, he said he's going to, he wants a different coach. It was just a very heartbreaking moment. I was home by myself. My wife was out. She came home, and I had to tell her what just transpired. So, it, it devastated me. It really broke my heart because, like I said, in, in, in, [coughs] where I grew up was, you know, your word is your, is your bond. And my parents -- as soft as they were and as loving as they were -- they always told me never to trust people from from the city -- meaning the white people. Don't, don't trust them. Don't trust them at all. They break all their promises. They broke all our treaties. So, I heard that my whole life and I didn't believe it. But here I was, had something promised and all of a sudden, they take it away. It was, it hurt a lot.

NK: What did Sandra say to you in that moment when, you know, you have your face buried in a pillow. You say you're so devastated. What did she say to you? What did you do together to be able to move from that place into a happier one?

TN: You know, it just kind of, you know, sometimes even with my oldest brother, Rick, he was, he was a man of few words once in a while. And, but when things were tough, he came and sat, and you could tell he was, he was there for you -- without even saying a word. And, and that's how, how Sandra was. Those, I don't think it had, words weren't going to do anything. You know, words weren't going, well, we'll wait for the next one. And let's do, let's go about it a different way. You know, we just sat and we, we cried together. And it took us a little while to understand what, what really transpired. And it gives you another, another look at the game of hockey that you go, geez.

NK: Once again, at that moment, too, Garden River, First Nation -- home -- becomes a place for you to, to reconnect and heal and regroup. You know, the NHL season is set to start. As you know, there's certainly been lots of controversy about Hockey Canada over the last year. How do you feel about the game and how it treats players now?

TN: You know, I think we're getting a little bit better. But it's, it's better from the white perspective on how we think it should be changed. Instead of talking about the, to the grassroots people who who actually went through the experience and how it made them feel and how their, their emotions, how it affected our, you know, just like the truth and reconciliation. You're not going to ask the priest how they think the, the schools went. No, you have to talk to the survivors and get their opinion what, what happened and what, what transpired in order to make it better. But you could do your own part by, we do the Three Nolan hockey camp. And we, we educate our, our, our kids on our own. We go through it. And what you go through. You know, is it getting better? I, you know, kids and families are earning a little bit more. My grandson plays baseball. And he went out last last year, and he misjudged a fly ball and it hit him right in the head.

NK: [chuckling] Oh no!

TN: And he dropped down and, you know, he's crying a little bit. But I tell you, five or six of the kids from the city came over and said, are you okay? And I thought it was such a, such a cool moment.

Yeah!

NK: Because, you know, when I was going through it, they would have laughed and said, look at that dumb Indian! He can't even catch a ball. You know, those, those things. So things are changing, and I think people are changing stronger than the people who are running the sport and are.

NK: There's that throughline of joy, as we talked about, when you find out you're drafted. Then, when you realize you don't have to play hockey anymore, but then seeing your son hoist the Stanley Cup, to that moment that you just describe for us right now, which is not in the book. But what is it like for you sitting from this vantage point now? Do you feel that all those, those pieces of you that, that, that you are your full self? And that other players can be that way now, too?

TN: Oh, you know, I did everything in my power to, to make life a little bit better. Like I said, you want to make sure you have a footprint. And especially my, my parents. The one thing I really wanted to do was was honour them in some way, and by honouring them in some way is doing good. And doing good is being a good parent. And I just really wanted to, to be there for my kids and, and help them in whatever way you did. And so I, I made a rink in my backyard just like I did when I was a kid. But I made it with a water hose. I had indoor plumbing at the time, and they went out and played, and they both fell in love with the game. But to tell you the truth, Nil, I didn't put them in hockey to try to play in the National Hockey League.

NK: Yeah.

TN: I just, it was a sport everybody played. And they got better. And, and, all of a sudden, you know, Brandon gets drafted to the NHL first, and ends up playing a little bit with the Carolina Hurricanes until his injury happened. Then, all of a sudden, his younger brother is drafted in the seventh round with the L.A. Kings. And a couple years later, he's, he's hosting the Stanley Cup. And bringing that cup back to the community was, was one of the moments I'll never forget. Seeing the, the, the emotional side of the, you know, some, some people had some tears in their eyes, and they're so happy. [Nil laughs happily] And it's just one of those moments that I'll never, I'll never forget. And we had a chance to do it two or three times through Jordan's being a part of the L.A. Kings twice and being part of the St. Louis Blues.

NK: Ted, once again, it's a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you for coming back on the show.

TN: Oh wow, Nil, thank you very much for having me on, and I'm looking forward to everybody else, for the book to come out shortly.

NK: Yes, take care.

TN: All right. You, too.

CH: Ted Nolan is a former NHL player and coach and 1996–97 Jack Adams Award Winner. His book, Life In Two Worlds: A Coach's Journey from the Reserve to the NHL and Back, came out in 2023 -- and he was Nil's guest on the show at the time.

[indie rock]

SOD: Kayaker Inside Whale

CH: It's exciting to be out in a kayak, and see a whale in distance. It gets more exciting as it gets closer. But there's a point at which the excitement tips into terror, and it's the point where the whale swims up for a closer look -- and then a taste. Adrián Simancas and his father were kayaking in the Strait of Magellan, in Chile, when a humpback approached him -- and, briefly, consumed him.

SOUNDCLIP

[A man screams and shouts in Spanish]

CH: Our Sound of the Day: kayaker Adrián Simancas as he was briefly trapped in the mouth of a humpback whale before the whale spit him out -- all while his father filmed and, helpfully, yelled at him to stay calm. And then rescued him. Mr. Simancas later said he'd believed at first he'd maybe been eaten by an orca, and that that was it for him. Now, he thinks the whale was just curious. Both he and his father made it back to shore unharmed.

The AIH Transcript For February 14, 2024

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