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The AIH Transcript for February 12, 2025

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Home at Last. A teacher who spent more than three years in a Russian prison is now back in the United States. Marc Fogel's mother tells us about the long and frustrating fight to secure his freedom.

CH: Crossing a raid line. A Palestinian bookshop owner in Jerusalem tells us Israeli police descended on his shop and arrested him for selling books he says are widely available at bookstores everywhere.

NK: She's waiting breathlessly, but not literally breathlessly. A New Brunswick woman was shocked to discover Service Canada had declared her dead. Now she is very much hoping to officially resuscitate herself.

CH: Going with the floe. A Quebec paddler says he's putting his dreams of a career in ice canoeing on pause after a harrowing experience during the Quebec winter carnival.

NK: Change of scenery. In a picturesque farmer's field a metal detectorist finds a rare Viking coin in pristine condition and is ecstatic to see it become part of the British Museum's collection.

CH: And maybe she's amazed. When a small New York City venue announced a surprise Paul McCartney concert last night. Our guests scrambled to get a ticket. She tells us that being at the show was so surreal she can hardly believe in yesterday. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that assumes the excitement was Paul-pable.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Marc Fogel Release, N.B. Woman Not Dead, For The Record: Fentanyl Czar, Paul McCartney Small Show

Marc Fogel Release

Guest: Malphine Fogel

CH: After spending more than three years in prison in Russia Marc Fogel is finally back home, after a prisoner swap between Russia and the United States. In 2021 the American teacher was sentenced to 14 years in prison for possession of medical marijuana at the Moscow airport. Late last night cloaked in an American flag, Mr. Fogel arrived at the White House, where he thanked President Donald Trump and other officials who had helped negotiate his release.

SOUNDCLIP

MARC FOGEL: I feel like the luckiest man on earth right now. And I want you to know that I am not a hero in this at all. And President Trump is a hero. These men came from the diplomatic service, are heroes. The Senators and Representatives that have passed legislation in my honour to get me home. Are the heroes.

CH: That was Marc Fogel speaking last night after his release from a Russian prison. For years, his family fought for his release, pushing the U.S. government to declare him wrongfully detained and even suing the State Department. And no one was a stronger advocate for Mr. Fogel than his 95 year old mother. Malphine Fogel. We reached her at her home in Butler, Pennsylvania.

NK: Malphine has the reality of all of this set in now? That your son is home?

MALPHINE FOGEL: It's beginning to. I did hear from Marc this morning, so that helped. So that was the first I talked to him in a long time and he sounded pretty strong.

NK: Can you share as much as you're comfortable, what did you say? What did he say?

MF: Well, he was just so thankful. Just I mean, that's the one word I can say over and over and over. He's just so thankful to everybody who's taken this, this far and just appreciates it and is looking forward to getting home.

NK: And when you say everyone that includes you, you sued the State Department. You've been pushing. You wanted to make sure his case was not forgotten that your son was not forgotten. Was there a point before yesterday or before that phone call this morning where you thought that this was not going to happen?

MF: No, I really didn't think that. I didn't know how long it would take, but I knew it was just a matter of time because, you know, facts are facts. And I knew that he would get a release at some point.

NK: Before that phone call today with your son, Malphine, when was the last time you had spoken?

MF: I'd spoken to him about three weeks ago. He was calling on a regular basis from the prison and for, usually on a weekend. And for a couple of weeks, he didn't get through. Sometimes the phones didn't work properly, but it had been a while, and I can't tell you exactly how long, but it seemed like a long time since I had talked to him. And so I was really happy to hear from him this morning.

NK: And when did you get the news, you know, that this was happening, that he would come home?

MF: I can't remember, you know, days or just one day goes into the other and one hour into another. The phones never stop ringing. And but, you know, I just, I knew it was going to happen. I just didn't know when. And we kept thinking, you know, I kept having a feeling that things were moving, but I had nothing to base it on. And I think my family felt the same way that things were progressing. So anyway, we were just thrilled to death to get the news and then to hear Marc this morning was just, it was painful, but it was also welcome. We're just really, really happy that things are moving.

NK: Painful because you know how long it's taken.

MF: Yes, because I think of what was lost in three and a half years. I don't know that you could ever make that up. And I keep thinking of Mark, thinking of what he's missed with his family and friends and just so senseless. You know, It was so senseless.

NK: You know, we've covered on the program, on our show other prisoner releases. You know, a Wall Street Journal reporter, Evan Gershkovich, Paul Whalen, WNBA player Brittney Griner. What did you feel every time you saw those headlines and Marc was not part of them?

MF: Well, it was kind of disbelief. I thought, well, how can this be happening? Why don't they see this? And it was disbelief and disgust at some point. And I just kept praying that somebody would wake up and get this straight. And, you know, I just can't emphasize how frustrating that was.

NK: Why do you think it took this long for your son's release?

MF: I don't know. I wish somebody would tell me. I don't know.

NK: I know you said you never lost hope. How did you make sure that your son didn't lose hope when all of those other releases happened and he was still there?

MF: Yeah, I know. I always told him, Just hang in there. Something's going to happen. Just hang in there. And I know there were times when he really wanted to throw in the towel and just give up, but he kept it going. And, you know, I think talking to his family, his wife and the boys and his sisters and me, and somehow we just tried to pump him up and tried to, you know, give them hope, because I think he was pretty low ebb at some point.

NK: So then this summer, there was a critical shift, I think we can say. You met with Donald Trump and actually it was in Butler just before the shooting that happened there, it was a campaign rally he was running to... [MF: Right.] You know, to become president again. What did you say and what did he say?

MF: Well, the first thing I have to say, he was very cordial, very easy to talk to, and he wanted to know why I was there. There were a number of people waiting to talk to him. And I explained Marc's case and I said, if you get elected, will you work on getting him out? And he said, if I get in, I'll get him out. He said that three different times. He was genuinely interested in Marc's case, and I told him he had to remember his name. And I think he did. We didn't have the feeling that they were trying very hard with Marc, the Biden administration. I could be wrong about that. But President Trump and Trump really jumped in from the very beginning and said, you know, we're going to get him out.

NK: So you've had that phone call, but you haven't seen him yet. You haven't hugged him, are you? I can only imagine you've played out that scene in your mind a lot of times over these past few years.

MF: Many, many times. Yes. He is going to San Antonio and he's going to be, get a work up at some kind of a I think, a maybe a government facility, a hospital.

NK: A medical checkup?

MF: Yes. A medical checkup. So I hope that they really, you know, give him a thorough check-up and then release him, because I want him to be healthy. And, you know, I want him to get the best care he can get. And if that takes a little while, then, you know, so be it.

NK: Malphine, I hope you're reunited in person soon. Thank you for your time.

MF: Well, thank you. Bye bye.

CH: Malphine Fogel is the mother of Marc Fogel. The American teacher has just returned to the U.S. after a prisoner swap between Russia and the United States. We reached Ms. Fogel at her home in Butler, Pennsylvania.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

N.B. Woman Not Dead

Guest: Cathy Adams

CH: It's not every day you find out you've died. So you can imagine how surprised Cathy Adams was. Our colleagues at CBC New Brunswick, have been investigating the story of the Charlotte County woman who was going about her life when she discovered that the Canadian government had officially declared her dead. There was no warning and no explanation. Just a sudden halt to her pension payments and an absurd phone call with Service Canada. We reached Cathy Adams in Pomeroy Ridge, New Brunswick.

NK: Cathy, I just need to do my journalistic duty. Due diligence. Fact checking. You are still alive? Yes.

CATHY ADAMS: I'm still alive and kicking. Yes. [chuckles]

NK: I'm very glad to hear that. How did you find out that the federal government did not think you were alive? In fact, they firmly believed that you had died.

CA: Well, CPP and OAS comes out on the 29th of January, and I didn't look until the 30th and realized I hadn't got my CPP, so and I couldn't access my Service Canada account to find out why. So I called and the woman there was really nice. She said, I'm really sorry. It's bad news. On December 13th, you were noted as being dead. My condolences. And we both laughed because what else are you going to do?

NK: That's absurd, yeah.

CA: It's funny. I told her, Please don't say it too loudly because my cats are right here and they might wonder where their next meal is coming from.

NK: So you were taking it in stride with jokes, both of you at that stage? [cross talk] But then you have to get to the bottom of it because you need those deposits, obviously. So you call Service Canada back to double check and ask some more questions. What did that agent tell you?

CA: He couldn't give me any details because of, you know, privacy and confidentiality, he said. After we hung up, I thought, this just doesn't sound right.

NK: And so how many phone calls, how many conversations, how long did it take? Because this started for you a while back.

CA: I went into Service Canada that afternoon to offer proof of life. So, three trips in to talk to them and going on two dozen calls.

NK: Even a person with the most patients would be forgiven for losing it, maybe even raising their voice. Did you? How did you keep it together?

CA: Well, you can't take it out on the person you're talking to because it's not their fault. The woman when I went into the office, she was really good and was able to tell me that it was a niece of this deceased person, which was supposed to be me who had called in the death. But and she did give me her name and asked, did I know that name? And no, I did not. [NK: Okay.] But they said it was a clerical error, that this note had been put on the wrong account, which was my account.

NK: Employment and Social Development Canada. We should mention, our colleagues at CBC New Brunswick, who were speaking to you initially. They called Employment and Social Development Canada or contacted them, and the agency declined an interview with our colleagues, but sent them a statement. [CA: Yeah. I'm not surprised.] Yeah. Saying in the statement in part that there was no fraud or scam involved and that, quote, "human error is to blame". And as you said, it's clerical error. But how does that sit with you?

CA: Well, I got two messages. Another statement was given to them from, to CBC New Brunswick that I had made a request prior to the 29th when the money's come out and that that had triggered a termination of my benefits. I had not made any requests whatsoever. I didn't contact them until after the, I noticed it was gone. And that led me to believe or wonder if somebody had actually accessed my account saying they were me.

NK: And have you found out anything about that? I mean, yeah, it's normal to think that there's some sort of fraud or identity theft going on despite the fact that the agency is saying no.

CA: When you've got two different stories. Yes. For sure. I was concerned about it. And maybe an hour ago, hour and a half ago, I got a call from a supervisor saying that indeed a call had come through for someone who, the niece of someone who had died and the account, it was just a note that was put on my account and that there was no fraud involved and no request.

NK: A different Cathy Adams had passed away, is what they are saying.

CA: No, it was not. It's a name, I'm sorry, I can't even think of the name, but it had no resemblance to Cathy Adams whatsoever. None.

NK: That's a pretty big error.

CA: That's a pretty big error. Yeah. There should be things in place that they can correct that very quickly. Without the person, the dead person having to run around to find their marriage certificate so they can get their SIN number back again.

NK: It's, as I said, it's remarkable that you still have such a great sense of humour about this because I think our entire country, anyone listening is just as frustrated as you are. Very, very frustrated for you.

CA: But this dead person still has a good sense of humour.

NK: And you have a list of jokes, clearly. What's your favourite one?

CA: There are so many I couldn't... Dead people still eat, do dead people have to pay this bill. When I went out for breakfast, you know what would the dead person like to eat today? [chuckles] It's just been non-stop. And it has been funny.

NK: You also, you're going to keep the joke going. Well, you want a memory of this. I wouldn't. Right. You asked for a copy of your death certificate.

CA: I did. That was the first thing I asked for. I said, could I have a copy of my death certificate so I can frame it and put it on the wall? Apparently, that can't happen. [laughter]

NK: What would you, what do you want Service Canada to take away from all this?

CA: If this was a human error, then maybe additional training on double checking and triple checking before you make an error like this that can affect a person's life. Fortunately for myself, I was able, you know, able to manage without that money coming in. But that might not be the case for another person. And if indeed, you know, human error does happen. So if indeed one does happen, then they should have something in place to be able to correct that very expeditiously to get my SIN number reinstated. I had to, because my birth certificate and my driver's license have two different last names. Maiden name. Married name. Well, I got married in 1976. Separated in 1994. I didn't have that marriage certificate. I'm not divorced, I'm just separated. I took in a copy of my separation agreement and we laughed and said, that should do the job.

NK: Yeah, but who wants to go digging through all of that? Oh, Cathy...

CA: Well, I had to empty out a whole pile of drawers just to find that. [laughter]

NK: Cathy, I'm glad things. Things are back on track for you now. I appreciate your time.

CA: Thank you.

CH: That was Cathy Adams, who was declared dead by Service Canada. We reached her at her home in Pomeroy Ridge, New Brunswick.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

For The Record: Fentanyl Czar

CH: He isn't just the new one. He's the only one so far. So we've all been interested to hear from Kevin Brosseau, Canada's fentanyl czar. The Federal Government announced his appointment yesterday. Donald Trump put a pause on his tariffs after a call with Justin Trudeau when the Prime Minister committed to creating the Czar position as well as new border control measures. Mr. Brosseau is a former RCMP deputy commissioner and adviser to the Prime Minister. Today he was in Lansdowne, Ontario, not far from the New York border, where he spoke to the media with a helicopter and police cars with their lights flashing behind him. Here's how he responded when a reporter asked him what he was hoping to achieve before the tariff pause is set to end in early March.

SOUNDCLIP

KEVIN BROSSEAU: I'm hoping to be able to give an intensity to the work being carried out by thousands of men and women in this country and the United States trying to deal with the real public safety and national security crisis that is fentanyl. Bringing that integrated approach. Bringing the teams together, ensuring the collaboration, ensuring the communication is happening at officials level on both sides of the border and communities across the country.

JILLIAN PIPER: Hi, Mr. Brosseau. Thanks for taking questions. I'm Jillian Piper with Global News. My question to you is that we know that Canada already represents less than one per cent of the fentanyl going into the United States. Do you think we can realistically get that number to zero?

KEVIN BROSSEAU: Getting the number to zero is in fact a goal and should be our goal. If it's one pound, 10 pounds, we all know the amount of deaths that that possibly could represent. This is a national security and a public safety crisis. We should be focussed on eliminating the scourge that is fentanyl in this country and in the United States.

JILLIAN PIPER: And have you spoken with Border Czar, Mr. Homan, about your appointment? Are you planning to speak with him in the coming days?

KEVIN BROSSEAU: I hope to speak with him soon. In fact, I spoke with the ambassador the United States last night, and she and I talked about getting to D.C. very, very soon to be able to have those conversations. I've already, of course, as you know, spent some time here at the border. I'm being briefed by senior Canadian law enforcement officials later on today and tomorrow to understand the current situation on the ground. And I look forward to continuing those conversations with my American counterparts very soon.

CH: Canada's new fentanyl czar, Kevin Brosseau, speaking to the media today.

[Music: Classic instrumental]

Paul McCartney Small Show

Guest: Devon Ivie

CH: Devon Ivie was still in her workout clothes after Pilates class yesterday when she got some information that seemed impossible. That evening, there was going to be a surprise Paul McCartney concert at a venue in Manhattan that holds less than 600 people. And against all odds, she managed to get tickets. We reached Devon Ivie in New York City.

NK: Devon, if you had to rate the concert from 1 to 10, where does it sit for you?

DEVON IVIE: 100. [laughter] Can that be a possible numeric answer? [NK: Sure.] I mean, I joke that, you know, some people like to use the term once in a lifetime a little too much. But I cannot think of something that was more truly once in a lifetime than being among 500 people at the Bowery Ballroom to see Paul freakin McCartney. I mean, just absolutely incredible.

NK: And can you even pick highlights? Is it just one big highlight?

DI: Man, I think the highlight for me was, I've never seen them live before. The first thing the audience heard was the opening riff to "A Hard Day's Night". And then he starts going right into it and I thought, I am on cloud nine. This man could just perform the alphabet song or Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. And it would have been a life affirming moment for me. But he did a proper mix of his complete catalogue of music, and I fear I cannot rank one above the rest. But I do love The Beatles. I mean, hearing "From Me To You" live, hearing "Let it Be". Crying with grown women and men to "Hey Jude" and "Get Back" and dancing to, you know, "Carry That Weight" was remarkable. Everything was a true highlight.

NK: And from what I've been seeing and hearing from others who managed to get a ticket, it wasn't just the magic of its Paul McCartney and my goodness, we got tickets. He was good.

DI: Oh no, he was very good. And it's amazing. I'm sure you heard the story about how they announced the show out of absolute nowhere at noon in the afternoon and said, hey, first come, first serve. If you're here physically, you'll get one ticket and you'll pay 50 U.S. dollars. It was amazing that, to see the line that formed and people running out of cabs, like sprinting their way down Delancey Street. I saw a woman fall out of a cab to get to the line, I hope she made it.

NK: I hope so, too. Well, how long I mean, was this... Are you on Paul McCartney's Instagram? Are you getting an email? How did you find out? And then how quickly did you get there?

DI: Yeah, it was true kismet timing. So I opened my laptop pretty much exactly at noon. I was doing some work in my apartment, which is within, I would say, a 16 to 17 minute walk of the Bowery Ballroom. And I just wanted to break. I was doing some work. I'm like, check my emails, do some administrative work. And the first email I saw was just the news media blast. That said Paul McCartney, Bowery Ballroom, Line up if you want a ticket right now. And at first I'm like Paul McCartney. Am I misreading this? Is this like a Bob McCartney?

NK: Is it a cover? Is the cover artist? Yeah.

DI: Yes. Is this a cover band of Macca, is it sanctioned. And I kept reading and I'm like, oh my God, this is truly a surprise show. I got to get my ass there. I got my AirPods, I got my handbag. And I tried cardio for the first time in years.

NK: And it worked. It worked. How far in line were you?

DI: I cut down four minutes from my, from a walk. I did some light jogging and I was, I got there at 12:15 on the dot. At that point, there was a sense that we were still amongst the first few people and by the time 12:20 to 12:25 came around, that's when the bulk of these people got to the line and it became a little dicier. If they would make it in and get the ticket. It was kismet timing that I was just working from home live within a pretty close proximity, open my email at that time and was able to run out without having a meeting to worry about. So it was truly just a remarkable day. I think another day will surpass this in the near future.

NK: And it should stand on its own. One for the book certainly. Did you see people who were not as fortunate?

DI: There was a sense in the near back of the line on the Bowery, people were starting, still starting to line up and the organizers very politely were like, there is no chance you got here a little too late. We're really sorry. I personally did not witness a, you know, a tearful plea to get in, and I'm sure others did. But where I was on the line, everyone in my immediate vicinity, we all knew very much with certainty that we would be getting in without any issues.

NK: And how long did you perform for?

DI: He played 100 minutes, so he really got on, I want to say 6:45 on the dot, and we got out just before 8:30. It was not just, Hey, we're going to do three songs, have a little party and leave you. So I think we kind of got the best in the middle right there.

NK: That's great time, too.

DI: Yeah, absolutely.

NK: Did he say in the banter at all why he decided to do this?

DI: By my understanding, he and his band, who I believe he's in town for the SNL 50th anniversary. [NK: Ah right.] He likes those small shows. I mean, the Bowery Ballroom has hosted very large acts in the past who love the spirit of it being a small venue and a small, intimate venue. We had to put our phones in pouches that were sealed. Paul wanted to be with a small, intimate group of people who clearly loved his music. It's very nice that someone of his caliber would still just want to do a show like that.

NK: It's a beautiful thing. He's going to do another one tonight, right? Are you going to try again?

DI: He is. I have a feeling he's going to do... I have a feeling he's going to do a third too. All of the pre-scheduled shows this week at the Bowery Ballroom were re-allotted to different venues. So we can reconnect then to see if...

NK: You're going to try to go?

DI: I couldn't go today. But you know what I am, I am of the minds. I have gotten to experience it. Even though I could be cheeky and wait online again, someone else deserves to experience this as I did. So I promise every listener of the show I will not be running in my Pilates clothes down to the venue again.

NK: Devon, great to speak with you. Congratulations.

DI: Thank you so much. The pleasure's mine, my friend.

CH: Devon Ivie managed to get a ticket to a surprise Paul McCartney concert last night. She's a staff writer for Vulture and New York magazine. We reached her in New York City.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 2: Jerusalem Book Shop Arrests, Ice Floe Rescue, Viking Coin, Mini Update: Scrim The Dog

Jerusalem Book Shop Arrests

Guest: Ahmad Muna

CH: For generations the Educational Bookshop in Jerusalem has been a place that does what its name suggests, educates. The Palestinian family owned bookshop sells books in many languages that largely focus on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's renowned as a place where people can share ideas freely. But on Sunday, Israeli police raided the store, knocking books off the shelves and confiscating some of them, which they threw into garbage bags. They also arrested the owners of the store, Mahmoud Muna and his nephew, Ahmad. They were released on bail yesterday. Both men are under house arrest while police continue their investigation. They're banned from returning to their bookstore for 20 days. In their absence, other family members have cleaned up the shop and are keeping it open. We reached Ahmad Muna at home in Jerusalem.

NK: Ahmad, when police arrived, what kinds of books were they confiscating? What were they saying to you? I mean, how were they making the decisions of what they pulled from your shelves?

AHMAD MUNA: So when they arrived at 2:30 on Sunday, they showed us a, a search order signed by the police that they are looking for books that may have content of incitement. But to the people who came to search the bookshop, we have two bookshops. One has Arabic books and one have English books. None of the people who came to look for these books spoke English or Arabic. So they were judging the books by their covers. Any book that had the word Palestine, any book that had a flag, a picture of a flag, any book that had the picture of a prisoner, a picture of the war. This is how basically they made the judgement about the books and they were using their phones with Google Translate. They were taking photos and sending to each other. We also saw them debating in the shop. You know, this, should we take this book? Should we not take this book? You know, does this fit the criteria? But the criteria on paper, was, what the content of the book, the books. But we are sure that the content of the book is clean because we know where our books are coming from. These books are imported from abroad. They go through, we import them through Israeli channels, through Israeli airport and seaport. So they know we, they have our invoices, they have the title of the book already.

NK: In the end, police confiscated hundreds of books, as I understand it, from your shop. An Israeli police statement has said you were arrested with your uncle on suspicion of, quote, "selling books containing incitement and support for terrorism", unquote. What do the books in your shop contain? What are they about?

AM: We have a bookshop that has been longstanding for 40 years. It's started by my grandfather. My father worked there. My uncles worked there. And all of them have been through this business. I am now third generation into running this bookshop. The books that we print have not changed, the topics that the book discussed have not changed. We sell books. We're a good bookshop. We are a bookshop that sells books on Israel/Palestine, but also a book, with good books. We also sell books that are Nobel Prize winners, books that are internationally celebrated bestsellers all over the world. We have a huge collection of books. So the books that we sell in the bookshop are not invented. You know, they're not books with no references. It's not books that nobody owns. It's not books that we just, that are pulled from nowhere or invented.

NK: Last week, Israeli police raided another Palestinian owned bookstore in East Jerusalem. So, I wonder, as someone who does this work and clearly loves this, this work, are you concerned about censorship of Palestinians specifically?

AM: I think we are living in the last few years in this country, there has been, we have been going towards a more radical government, a more far right government that basically is trying to do everything it can to limit freedoms, to censor people's freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of choice. And this is a result of it when we see cultural institutions being questioned, when we see bank accounts of theatres being closed in the city, when we see cultural institutions being attacked, it's not surprising then that we see a bookshop being searched. So it's not the books, but it's rather the system, it's the psyche, it's the rulers, it's the authority that's pushing back on these freedoms and limiting people and individuals and businesses from operating with the kind of freedom that they should be operating.

NK: How will you and your family continue to operate if that's the reality you're already experiencing?

AM: It's unfortunate that this is the reality, but what other choice do we have? We are people who want to live, we are people who want to earn a living. We are people who have a business where this is going on for 40 years and we have no plans of closing it down. We have an emotional attachment to booksellers. This is something that goes in generations in our family. We have to continue. We are going to work with the authorities as much as possible to basically make sure that our file is clean, to make sure and get to the point of closing this file. And we will do whatever it takes. We will go far; we will go to court. We will fight, we will defend ourselves until this is clear and then until our bookshop is unquestionable about what it has in terms of content, we are determined to do so.

NK: I've seen videos of customers coming to show their support after what has happened at your shop. Of course, libraries and bookstores are a place for people to get books, but at their best, they're also a place where people can learn and exchange ideas. Can you give our listeners a sense of who comes to your shop?

AM: You know, actually, I love your questions. Just you are, you're on the same wavelength with me. People have been showing support. And actually I was in custody myself. And after 20 hours of being in this dark hole of, you know, being underground, disconnected with miserable conditions. The moment you open the door and you walk into the corridor with, to the court and you see 40, 50, 60 people from people that you know, people that you have seen in the last week or month or a year, from your customers, it lights in your heart. It was very uplifting. And that's exactly what this is about. I mean we are a bookshop, but we're also a community. We also have a community; we are a cultural centre in a way. Our customers, we are a bookshop in Jerusalem. Our customers are locals, they are Israelis, they are Palestinians and they are international. They work in this area. They are here to learn more about this region. And this is what you will find in our bookshop books that are about this region and about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. So these are our customers, but our customers are not limited. We also have Jewish customers. We also have Israeli customers. We also have Jewish-Israeli authors that we have their books on the shelves. Some of the books that were confiscated are actually written by Israeli-Jewish authors. I mean, this is how the people who came to confiscate the books did not really understand what the books are about, did not know who wrote these books, because if they really knew, they wouldn't be taking a book written by Jewish-Israeli person. But we are a very open and inclusive bookshop and every single person in the globe is welcome in our bookshop. And we will, they will be welcomed with open arms and we're happy to talk to them, to help them and to serve them coffee and sell them books and to recommend things for them. And we have never done anything otherwise.

NK: Ahmad, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

AM: You are welcome. Take care. Bye bye.

CH: Ahmad Muna and his family own the Educational Bookshop in Jerusalem. We reached him at home in Jerusalem.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Ice Floe Rescue

CH: Dominique Forgues was not expecting this year's Quebec Winter Carnival Ice Canoe race to be easy. On a good day the event involves traversing the St. Lawrence through shifting blocks of ice floating above fast, moving frigid waters from Quebec City to Lévis and back again three times. But the beginner ice canoeists team did not end up having a good day. And now he says he feels lucky to be alive. They were in fifth place after the first crossing and they thought they might be able to gain some valuable time by navigating a small stretch of open water between the ice pack and the wharf. But as Mr. Forgues explains, that is when things went badly wrong.

SOUNDCLIP

DOMINIQUE FORGUES: During the race we were going in the water on the side of the ice, and we got squeezed and stuck between the ice and the que [what]...

MÉLINA LÉVESQUE: The dock, yeah?

DOMINIQUE FORGUES: The dock. Yes, exactly. And pressure just made the bogs slip. My legs were stuck in the canoe and I was trying the hardest to get them out [inaudible] to save my life. So we then on the highs [inaudible] and we started to go with the flow without any boat.

MÉLINA LÉVESQUE: In that moment as this was happening, what was going through your head?

DOMINIQUE FORGUES: I was sure that I'm going to die. And I was the less [experienced] member of the, in the team. I almost everybody been doing this for 20 years. That was just a mistake by trying to take a trajectory that was very fast and risky. But things happened to be bad and all of this happened.

MÉLINA LÉVESQUE: And once you got on those blocks of ice with your team-mates, what was going through everyone's head? How were people feeling in that moment when you managed to get on to those blocks of ice?

DOMINIQUE FORGUES: In the first we were very glad that we were alive and in the second we were hoping for someone to come and rescue us on this ice block And that's another team that had their problem earlier in the race. And they were on the side. And when they see us, they came to help us.

MÉLINA LÉVESQUE: Have you been speaking with some of your teammates since this happened? How are they feeling?

DOMINIQUE FORGUES: We all have been shook. Some of us are taking it better than me. I think for me is the end of my career of ice canoeing, but maybe 1 or 2 members are going to do it again a little bit too much for me and the risk about that, they're out there. But I was thinking that I know all the risk. Maybe I didn't [know] at this moment all of the risk I had when I was doing this sport. And I, I hope is going to make other team just not a risk and maybe be more careful.

CH: Ice canoeist Dominique Forgues speaking with CBC Quebec's Mélina Lévesque.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Viking Coin

Guest: Malcolm Weale

CH: It has been a pretty good couple of years for people who like to slog through muddy British fields. The British Museum has announced that a record number of historical objects were found in 2023, mostly by amateur metal detectorists. The museum also announced a number of objects that have been deemed treasures. Yesterday, it unveiled some of those objects; a set of three thousand year old bronze metalworkers tools, a seventh century gold and garnet necklace and a gold signet ring from the Elizabethan era and a very special Viking coin discovered by a metal detectorist by the name of Malcolm Weale. We reached him just outside Norwich, England.

NK: Malcolm, there's the excitement of the moment of discovery, and then there's the feeling of seeing it actually on display at the British Museum. How did the two compare?

MALCOLM WEALE: Absolutely incredible. Absolutely incredible feeling. And, you know, when you actually find something that's been lost or dropped or not held by any other person, for all them years. Who held it, was it was it the king himself that dropped it? How did it get there? So many more questions than answers on something like this, which is why it's so fascinating for the archaeologist and the British Museum to get involved. It's absolutely incredible feeling. You know, for a lifetime I was doing this to achieve this is just incredible.

NK: Is it, when you see it, you know, dusted off and polished and there, you know, for I know it was a press showing initially, the public will get to see it. How does that sit with you as you imagine everyone, everyone seeing the objects, but also learning about your role in it?

MW: It's going to be incredible. And it's going to be in the museum, you know, for centuries to come for, you know, for this story to be told. I'm all about the history. I mean, I was just lucky enough to find it. It's been 30 years work, 40 years work, you know, to find history and recover history and so on, [inaudible], you know, that's the ultimate goal, is to prove and find and recover this stuff before it gets lost, damaged, gone forever. Built on, [inaudible] So it's an amazing achievement. It's one of my goal, my lifelong goal was to do something about this. It's incredible.

NK: That must be emotional. That's a big accomplishment, then.

MW: It's very emotional. Yes. I mean, hours and hours and hours and weeks and months and years of digging holes and getting dirty and getting cold and getting wet. And, you know, some people just take the mickey out of you, you know, call you an [inaudible] something. But, you know, it's sheer determination.

NK: Yeah. Can you take us back to that day? You're doing your thing as you've done for four decades, as you've said. When did you realize that there was something there and that, that something was significant?

MW: Well, I've been finding early medieval silver coins on the site for quite a few months. Kind of Edward the first, Edward the second, Henry the third. General quite early silver medieval coins. And then this particular day it was a terrible day. It rained and I just plowed on, I was soaking wet through and then just received a really old signal. And I knew I had to be something special and so very carefully dug. And when I saw it, I was shaking like, you know, it just instantly knew it was something amazing that I hadn't seen before. No one had ever seen it before.

NK: How did you know?

MW: Years, and years and years of looking through coin books, magazines, libraries, handling coins and finding coins before. And going to museums. You know, like the British Museum, like Norwich Castle museum, Cambridge museum. And even museums all around the world, you know, Rome museum. And I'd never seen anything like this because it was, it wasn't quite Anglo-Saxon and it wasn't quite Viking. It was a mixture of the two. Incredible, in incredible condition.

NK: And so why was this, what did you find out about the coin and why it is so important?

MW: The main significance is that there's a Viking warlord called Guthrum who came over as a Dane from Scandinavia in 871 because after the Romans left Britain, England was in turmoil. You know, the Saxons came from Germany and tried to take over the country. And, you know, England was divided. So the next minute we were being attacked by the Vikings and they were pretty gruesome. So there was a big battle where he fought Alfred and retreated. Part of the deal was that this, he was given East Anglia as a kingdom and England counties and borders were divided at that point which still stand today. Guthrum was a pagan and part of the deal was he converted to Christianity and this coin depicts, depicts his baptism by Alfred. King Alfred actually baptized him, himself.

NK: And so the historians will say, I'm sure and the curators that something of this much importance that comes from a time that was so pivotal clearly a time of conversion and change in many ways. Is there a sense of how much it's worth?

MW: It is priceless. I mean, you can't really put a value on history. It's absolutely price... I don't know. I really don't know. And I think the experts are pretty, pretty baffled as well. It's going to be bought for the nation by the nation. That's yeah, it's incredible.

NK: You love history. You love the hunt. But the patience we talked about, the difficulty. Why do you keep coming back to metal detecting? What is it about that practice?

MW: It's about being outside. Seeing the animals, experiencing the weather, keeping fit, it's fantastic for your mental health. I've made so many friends and I've been to places that I would never have been to. You know, for example, I would never have gone to the British Museum yesterday and met all the people I've met and the press. And it is very solitary and it can be very solitary. But I like that, you know, there's nothing on your mind apart from what, you know, what you potentially find next. And it's not just finding interesting things. It's about getting needles and other junk out of the ground so the animals don't get hurt. You know, there's a lot more to it. And getting rid of rubbish and junk and recycling as well. I mean, 99.99 per cent of what you find is rubbish.

NK: It makes the discoveries that much better.

MW: This one in a hundred million chance, you know. But I've probably dug a hundred million holes since 1978.

NK: Malcolm I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

MW: Thank you very much.

CH: Malcolm Weale is a metal detectorist. He's just outside Norwich, England.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Mini Update: Scrim The Dog

CH: When we introduced you to Scrim back in December, he was on the run in the mean streets of New Orleans. Every time he was captured, he escaped again, leaping from second story windows, dodging dart guns and evading pursuers, even as the whole town tracked his every move online. Sort of like the "Littlest Hobo", only much littler and also not really prone to helping people out. Screamers, a 17 pound mutt who was rescued from a feral life in a trailer park but could never quite settle in with those who hoped to give him a home. During his time on the loose, he became something of a fugitive folk hero. But to one of his care givers and pursuers, he was much more than that. This is Michelle Cheramie of Zeus Pet rescue.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHELLE CHERAMIE: He's so cuddly. So he likes to sit in your lap. We took naps. We watched TV. You know he, he's a yoga dog he does a lot of downward dog poses. He is super sweet. He got along great with my dog. He's your average dog when he's inside the house.

NK: Right. But very hard to catch. You know, he likes to be cuddled, but doesn't like to stay in one place. Why?

MICHELLE CHERAMIE: Yeah. So he came from a shelter down a little bit south of New Orleans, and he was not treated the best down there. And he was an outside dog, a yard dog. So he was never really allowed inside of a house. So I think somewhere in his little brain, being in a house feels not right to him. Like he gets comfortable and he's like, I'm not supposed to be in here and takes off.

NK: The quotes in the coverage of this, I mean, they're hilarious. One man says, "My cat comes home after he gets a little hungry, Scrim gets shot twice and still wants to be free. He is choosing this life. And that's kind of an inspiration". I mean...

MICHELLE CHERAMIE: Yeah.

CH: Michelle Cheramie of Zeus Pet Rescue. Speaking to Nil in December. Ever since then, Scrim was out fending for himself, surviving a rare New Orleans blizzard in January and the Super Bowl celebrations this past weekend. But now, for the third time, Scrim has been rescued. This time thanks to volunteers who set up food stations and tracked his movements with trail cameras. Michelle Cheramie told local news reporters that he was, in her words, "some special dog". She said Scrim is headed to a new home with lots of outdoor space and dog friends.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 3: Jean Augustine, CAN/EU Trade, FOA: Sam Nujoma Obit., Trump Judiciary

Jean Augustine

CH: It's not possible to sum up Jean Augustine's accomplishments in a brief time, so I won't try. But I will mention that she is the first Black woman elected to Parliament in Canada and the driving force behind Canada's designation of February as Black History Month. Now she's being honoured by Victoria University at the University of Toronto with a new professorship in her name. This morning she spoke to Metro Morning in Toronto. Soon after the news broke that Google has removed Black History Month and other events like Pride from its calendars. And in the U.S. government, observances of Black History Month have been curtailed as a result of Donald Trump's attacks on diversity, equity and inclusion programs. Host David Common asked Jean Augustine how she is making sense of this moment.

SOUNDCLIP

JEAN AUGUSTINE: The word challenging comes to mind, that we are in challenging times, and because we in Canada have set up legislation and policies and regulations around a whole series of things. I'm hoping that we will not go the way of what we see happening in the United States. We've built a country where diversity is our strength. We've said that we are multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic, multi-religious. We have our charter of rights. There is just so much that we as Canadians have committed ourselves to each other and to the building of this country. So I think we have to just hold strong and hold business people and educators have to realize that we have to continue doing the work that is so important to build a fair and just and inclusive society that we all want.

DAVID COMMON: You spent many years as a member of Parliament. Do you, I think you were known on the Hill as somebody who had a lot of hope. Do you still have that hope?

JEAN AUGUSTINE: Yes, I am. I am a hopeful person. I am a person who see myself as looking to the future with hope. That what we are going through right now. I keep thinking that this is just a phase. This is just a push back on some of the progressive advances that we've made. And so we just have to hold strong.

CH: That was Jean Augustine, the driving force behind Canada's designation of February as Black History Month. Speaking to the CBC's David Common earlier today.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

CAN/EU Trade

Guest: Mark Camilleri

CH: Provincial and territorial leaders were in Washington today trying to salvage Canada's relationship with its closest ally and most important trading partner. But Canada's Prime Minister was in Europe meeting with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. European Council President Antonio Costa and NATO's Secretary General, Mark Rutte. And at a press conference in Brussels, Justin Trudeau talked about the renewed importance of those partnerships.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We cannot take these institutions for granted. We must renew and deepen our engagement towards them. That's what we're doing here today. In turbulent times we all need reliable, trustworthy partners. And that's what Canada is. That's who Canadians are.

CH: Justin Trudeau speaking in Brussels today. In the face of Donald Trump's repeated tariff and annexation threats, the Canadian Prime Minister is working to bolster trade ties between Canada and Europe. And Mark Camilleri says that's good news. He's the president of the Canada-EU Trade and Investment Association and a special adviser at the Business Council of Canada on the European Union. We reached him in Brussels.

NK: Mark, Canadian trade with the European Union has already increased quite a bit in recent years. There's something like 158 billion dollars in bilateral trade with the EU right now. But our annual trade with the United States exceeds one trillion dollars. So is Europe really going to be able to pick up the slack and even be the kind of salvation the prime minister seems to be looking for here?

MARK CAMILLERI: Well, Nil, it's certainly a very strong trade relationship between Canada and the EU, but it's not one that's going to take over the U.S. trade relationship anytime soon. So I think we have to put, you know, manage expectations of this. But the EU is the third largest economy in the world. It's an economy of 20 trillion U.S. dollars. It's a wealthy economy made up of 450 million people. And the reception for Canada is generally very strong. Since the signing of the CETA in 2016, there have been many other specific dialogues that have helped recognize these other opportunities, things like the critical raw materials dialogue. There is now a digital partnership agreement in place as well. So we just seem to be going from strength to strength. It is, of course, not top of mind for, necessarily for Canadian policymakers, nor is it for the EU policymakers. But as the Prime Minister said, we can't take these relationships for granted. They must be renewed and they must be deepened as well.

NK: And in terms of CETA, it hasn't been fully ratified. Several countries have not ratified it. So, can CETA be what you say it needs to be?

MC: Well, there's always room for improvement. At the end of the day. It was, it was an agreement that was signed in 2016. But of course, it took 10 years to negotiate. So a lot of the underlying assumptions really came from the 2008 study. The world has changed since then. And of course, CETA should be improved. Ratification is a you know, it hasn't been fully ratified, as you said, but it is being provisionally applied. And the provisional application has seen strong growth. That growth, you know, from since 2016 has been 65 per cent in merchandise trade, an increase of 73 per cent in service trade. And so I do think there's a lot of opportunities to grow. And ratification is still a challenge that needs to be addressed. But we definitely could improve the agreement itself.

NK: The lack of ratification suggests there is pushback as well, as well as the support you talk about. How do you navigate that kind of pushback?

MC: Sure. Well, I'm not sure if we can simply boil it down to any one particular issue. You know, 17 of the member states did sign, did ratify CETA, and that leaves 10 remaining states. Those 10 states, they all have their own necessarily, their own specific issues. It's really a function of domestic politics. So it's something that needs to be worked on really at a local level. And there is engagement by the Canadian government. There's engagement by the EU, there's engagement by businesses as well. I just think perhaps we need a bit more engagement, a bit more, a bit more coordination in that engagement to really get at what is the issue and to ensure that there's, you know, correct information that people are making their minds on.

NK: And in terms of specific industries which may benefit from a growth in bilateral trade with the EU. We know Ottawa has signed agreements not too long ago on the export of hydrogen and raw materials to the EU. But what other industries are you going to be watching for?

MC: Well, you know, I would say, you know, I think you've hit two of the really important ones, the critical raw materials and hydrogen. But there's others as well. There's nuclear. Canada is a nuclear powerhouse. Europe is you know, there's the history of nuclear energy is a bit more complex in Europe, but nevertheless there's still a strong nuclear industry. The European Commission is certainly seeing that as part of their green strategy. AI and digital trade. I mean, the Prime minister was in Europe to discuss this. And I think that's, those are areas, again, which I could see some growth in. And these are all areas where, you know, CETA does not necessarily cover them. And so this is, these are where CETA, you know, can be improved.

NK: You know, we heard the Prime Minister talk today about trust. Canada certainly had every reason in the world to trust the United States on matters of trade until quite recently, our closest ally. But as we see similar right wing populist leaders, even before Donald Trump have gained ground, as you know, in Europe, do you think that that makes what we're talking about here and what the Prime Minister would like to see more difficult?

MC: Well, I would say it would actually make what the Prime Minister's saying even more important. At the end of the day, it's in Canada's interest to ensure that the EU remains committed to free trade. Yes, there are elements in member states, in every country, quite frankly that, where there's a resistance to it. And again, that's why we need to really engage to ensure we understand what the issues are and see what we can do to address them.

NK: We've seen this surge in buy Canadian sentiment and response to these U.S. tariffs and the threat of further tariffs. I spoke also with a hog farmer last night, but he's certainly not alone in saying that it needs to be easier for manufacturers and businesses to trade within the provinces across this country. Ultimately, do you think globalism is at a crossroads here, that it is in trouble now?

MC: Well, certainly globalism has had its challenges, but the EU has been a very strong bastion to, of support for an open, free trading world. And so, as I said, I do think it's very important for Canada to make the time and invest in these partners, in these relationships and ensure that the EU, you know, remains committed. And the best way to do that is to show them that Canada remains committed. So I think that, you know, again, increasing or rather decreasing internal barriers to trade in Canada, I mean, that's a good thing. And the EU offers an excellent example of how you can do that. This is a continent that has, you know, suffered centuries of wars and battles, and yet they've found a way to come together to break down internal barriers to trade. I see no reason why Canada can't do the same.

NK: Mark, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MC: Thank you very much, Nil. Appreciate your time.

CH: Mark Camilleri is the president of the Canada-EU Trade and Investment Association and a special adviser at the Business Council of Canada. We reached him in Brussels.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

FOA: Sam Nujoma Obit.

CH: Sam Nujoma was the first president of Namibia, a pivotal figure who led the fight for Namibian independence and served as the leader of the country for 15 years. Announcing his death this week at the age of 95, current Namibian president, Nangolo Mbumba, said Mr. Nujoma quote, "marshalled the Namibian people during the darkest hours of our liberation struggle", unquote. Sam Nujoma spent almost 30 years in exile as the leader of Namibia's independence movement and went on to lead the South-West Africa Peoples Organization, or SWAPO, which became the government in 1990. A lot of people considered him a charismatic father figure who brought the country together and a lot of people didn't. He made international news in 2000 when he made homophobic remarks at a U.N. conference, rhetoric that was not uncommon for him. And he once banned all foreign television programs in Namibia. At the same time, he was the first African leader to be hosted at the White House by former U.S. President Bill Clinton, and he was an advocate for women in leadership. In 1989, when he was the president elect, Sam Nujoma was a guest on As It Happens. Here's part of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

SAM NUJOMA: Yes, this is a historic day, a day of joy. A day that gives us hope that we will have a bright future. Which, of course, is the matter to work very hard, in order to give a strong foundation upon which the administration of our country can built up [inaudible] fortifications in defense of the sovereignty and freedom.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Mr. Nujoma, SWAPO did not win the two thirds majority that you need to control the country. Why is that?

SAM NUJOMA: A lot of, there is still one hundred thousand [inaudible] votes to come. Then we would [inaudible] there is a possibility for SWAPO to score the two thirds majority. In an event that we do not go two thirds majority there are other members of the [inaudible] assembly and there are the expression, will [inaudible] people. So we will work with them because this election is for freedom and independence of Namibia. If it would only be for party after freedom and independence, when each and every individual citizen would have the right to express [inaudible] raise the Democratic rise. But this particular election is just for freedom and independence of Namibia and its people.

CH: From our archives, there was former and first ever president of Namibia, Sam Nujoma, speaking with former, As It Happens host Michael Enright in 1989.

[Music: Lofi instrumental]

Trump Judiciary

Guest: Laurence Tribe

CH: The moves have been brazen ending birthright citizenship, gutting federal agencies, stopping USAID funding, digging through Treasury Department records. But so far, with more than 50 lawsuits now on the go, U.S. courts have largely responded by shutting down the Trump administration's efforts, at least temporarily. So the questions now are will the executive branch bow to the judiciary? Or will Mr. Trump defy the courts? And if he does, is the United States facing a constitutional crisis? Today, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt spelled out the administration's response to that last question.

SOUNDCLIP

KAROLINE LEAVITT: Many outlets in this room have been fearmongering the American people into believing there is a constitutional crisis taking place here at the White House. I've been hearing those words a lot lately. But in fact, the real constitutional crisis is taking place within our judicial branch, where district court judges and liberal districts across the country are abusing their power to unilaterally block President Trump's basic executive authority. We believe these judges are acting as judicial activists rather than honest arbiters of the law. This is part of a larger concerted effort by Democrat activists and nothing more than the continuation of the weaponization of justice against President Trump. Quick newsflash to these liberal judges who are supporting their obstructionist efforts 77 million Americans voted to elect this president. And each injunction is an abuse of the rule of law and an attempt to thwart the will of the people. As the president clearly stated in the Oval Office yesterday, we will comply with the law in the courts, but we will also continue to seek every legal remedy to ultimately overturn these radical injunctions and ensure President Trump's policies can be enacted.

CH: White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt speaking earlier today. Laurence Tribe is a constitutional law expert and Harvard professor emeritus. We reached him in Boston.

NK: Professor Tribe, you heard what she said there, what the administration [LT: I heard, I heard]. Yeah, and that's her take. The administration's take, that these injunctions are an abuse of the rule of law. What do you see?

LAURENCE TRIBE: Well, I don't know where to begin. It's clear that the spokesperson for the White House has no respect for the American Constitution or the way we have set up our government. Unlike parliamentary systems like yours, we have a very basic separation of powers between the executive and the legislative branch. The central feature of that is to give Congress, the Congress of the United States the power of the purse. The President cannot spend money without authorization from Congress. Nor can he delete or delay the expenditure of money that Congress has told him to spend on various programs just because it doesn't accord with his priorities. Dozens of them now, judges have said, you can't do this.

NK: Let me just jump in for a second, Professor Tribe, because there's a bit more to unpack, obviously. But so everything you've listed there is for you and others what defines a constitutional crisis clearly, the reference to judges as, quote, "judicial activists" that is sending a signal to people, supporters of this administration in particular, that something not right is going on, that people aren't doing what they are supposed to do. What do you make of that kind of description and what it signals about what Americans and the rest of the world can expect on this front?

LT: Well, I have to be very, very clear in saying that this is not just a matter of nomenclature and rhetoric. It's standard American politics for one party to describe judicial rulings that the other party tends to favour as activist and improper. That's their prerogative. They can criticize judges all they want. That's fair game. But in this case, the dog whistle calling these judges activists is coupled with calls by various senators for the impeachment of federal judges who draw the line at a place where the Republican Party doesn't want it to be drawn. To say that federal district judges are corrupt if they simply disagree with this administration's priorities. They can say that. But when they are saying that, that is part of an overall program of destroying one agency after another. So it's not just a matter of they're saying, we don't agree with these judges. They're threatening these judges they are putting a target on their backs...

NK: And so how...

LT: They're publicizing their names so that they and their families might be harassed, they're threatening to remove them and they're hinting they might not obey them.

NK: How should the courts respond if they do, in fact, defy these court orders?

LT: They should issue contempt judgements. Judges do have the power to order the imprisonment of those who defy their orders, and it may come to that. Of course, the problem at that point will be judges don't have their own enforcement authority. They don't have an army. And so we may come to a point where the executive tells courts we will simply not enforce your judgements. That would be an even worse crisis. But we are already in the midst of a very serious constitutional catastrophe, and I don't think we should waste a lot of time about whether to call it a crisis or not.

NK: Well, you're escalating it from crisis to catastrophe even. And you're giving reasons why. You're giving reasons why. Obviously, you have cause to do that. The Supreme Court, do you think that it will try to and actually be able to rein in this administration?

LT: Well, I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know. I do think that the court much of it favours a very muscular executive. And as far as it has gone to give the president protection from being criminally prosecuted for using his official powers, even in a criminal way, is at least as interested in its own prerogatives and in preserving the integrity and independence and power of the judicial branch. So it's going to do all it can to avoid being reduced to a mere shadow of its former self.

NK: I hear real worry and concern in your voice, in addition to legal knowledge. Do you think, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but just personally, are you feeling like your country can extract itself from this crisis or catastrophe?

LT: Well, I'm an eternal optimist, it would have to go very far before I thought we were irreparably destroyed. We have survived any number of crises in the past. I'm hoping we will survive this one, but it's not guaranteed.

NK: You've also, in other interviews, described what the U.S. President and Elon Musk, who you've mentioned, are doing as a, quote, "coup". If the courts aren't able to or don't want to limit what this administration is doing and might do. What would you say to people in the United States about what they should be doing to try to protect their democracy?

LT: Well, I would say that everyone should do everything he or she can within the law. I'm not advocating lawbreaking. I'm not advocating violence. I wouldn't. But it seems to me that with elections awaiting us in the midterms in 2026, lawsuits being brought all over the country, people can speak up. They can join peaceful protests. They can plan political campaigns to overturn the currently supine Republican majority of the House and of the Senate. Get together with friends and with like-minded people and provide financial support to those who are being vindictively, fired or otherwise targeted by the administration. There's a great deal every individual can do, and we all need to do our part.

NK: Professor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

LT: Thank you for having me.

CH: Laurence Tribe is a professor emeritus at Harvard Law School. We reached him in Boston.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For February 12, 2025

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