Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

The AIH transcript for February 11, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Reduce costs at all costs. Industry Minister François-Philippe Champagne says it's time for Canada to redouble its efforts to fend off the U.S. president's off-again, on-again tariff threats.

CH: The "art" in artificial. A lot of people want it cancelled -- but one artist tells us the very first all-AI-powered art auction at Christie's is the real deal.

NK: Battle underground. Construction workers in northern England find hundreds of bombs from the Second World War -- while digging in a children's playground.

CH: On the edge of his seats. Remembering furniture designer Yrjö Kukkapuro -- whose stylish yet comfortable chairs can be found anywhere anyone in Finland wants to take a load off.

NK: Flying sauce-ers. A researcher tells us he was surprised and thrilled to discover cockatoos dipping their food in different substances to enhance the taste -- even if their preferred flavour combinations were pretty gross.

CH: And...the battle of the insectses. When they bought a $55-million mansion, a couple were all aflutter -- before they learned the house was all aflutter, with a major infestation of moths.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday Edition. Radio that guesses they put their money where their moths were.

Part 1: Tariffs: Champagne, WW2 Bomb Town, Yrjö Kukkapuro

Tariffs: Champagne

Guest: François-Philippe Champagne

CH: Canadian politicians may have banded together to oppose Donald Trump's tariff threats -- but they haven't put all their differences aside. Take Ontario Premier Doug Ford. With a provincial election underway, he joined his fellow premiers in Washington today to lobby against the U.S. president's plan to tax Canadian steel and aluminum, and everything else. When asked about some of his earlier criticism of the federal government, here's how Mr. Ford responded.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: Right now, I think there's, there's a little bit of lack of leadership, to be frank with you, on the federal side, considering we're the economic engine of Canada. We do over $500 billion of two-way trade. Third largest trading partner in the world to the United States. I think we need a voice.

CH: François-Philippe Champagne is Canada's industry minister. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Minister Champagne, Doug Ford says there is a lack of federal leadership in this tariff fight right now is, as you heard there. How do you respond to that?

FRANÇOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I would say Team Canada is leading. We are doing all that together. I was just exchanging with Premier Ford even this morning, you know? So, this is really Team Canada. We're quite happy that the premiers are in Washington. I was there last week myself. And we need to bring as many voices as possible to speak to our American friends. I did that the whole of last week, meeting with the defence industry. We had myself was there, Minister Blair of Defence, Minister Wilkins of Natural Resources. So, it's all hands on deck. So, I would say that I'm quite happy to see Canadians stepping up. I think this has been a wake-up call for our country. And to see premiers in Washington, to see minister, the prime minister, I think that the country is really united behind the cause of making sure that we, we push back against the tariffs.

NK: You mentioned your trip to Washington. You were there with Minister Bill Blair. Premiers have made other trips as well. Yet, yesterday, 25 per cent tariffs on Canadian steel and aluminum. Does everything you're doing at a certain point feel like a waste of time?

FPC: No. I think we need to double down. I was talking to U.S. CEOs yesterday, and they did not see that coming either. So, it just tells you the world we live in. The rules of the game have changed. The rules of engagement have changed. It just seems to be kind of the new normal now that, that you see things coming from the White House the way they come. And I think the work we've been doing, the relationship we've established, are going to be helpful. Now, our job is to push back against the tariff. Make sure that our American friends understand that the tariffs will undermine the security and competitiveness of America. Because today, economic security is national security. Let's be clear, the steel we produce in, in Windsor, for example, is going to the defence industry. I was with CEOs of the defence industry, even some were in my office this morning. They understand that. They go also in shipbuilding. They go in the aerospace industry and the auto sector. Same thing with aluminum. So, my point is that undermining these critical supply chains will make America less competitive. And that's really the message we need to bring to Washington.

NK: What will, what will end these, these threats, though, Minister, I wonder? Because you've been sending that message. Others have been. Business leaders there are telling you, as we're hearing, that, that they're not really on board with this idea and these threats either. But the administration is [chuckling] sticking to them hard and fast and upping the ante even. So, when you talk about rules, there are no rules. How do you deal with that?

FPC: Well, I think we just need to double down on our efforts. I hear you on that. But there's no alternative than engagement and making sure. I can tell you, though, that the tone has changed, in my view, at least from the business community. The people I met last week, and I would point you, for example, to the governor of Kentucky. The governor of Kentucky was on the news saying, wow, now farmers in Kentucky are being impacted. Distilleries are closing, orders are being halted. And you would think what does Kentucky have to do with that? He said, I thought it was about Canada and not Kentucky economy which is paying for Washington. So, I think voices like that and many others are going to help because what we need is America talking to Americans, and making sure they understand there cannot be tariff without consequences. There cannot be tariffs without impact.

NK: Are you getting the sense that there is enough, they're being vocal enough, and that they have enough leverage or sway to change the trajectory of what this administration is saying it's going to do?

FPC: I think they're starting to realize how impactful this could be and how damaging it could be to America. I can tell you, for example, we were talking about some critical minerals that are essential, that are essential to the U.S. defence industry. When you're talking about things that could impact the national security of the United States, I feel that people are listening. And I'm saying just be mindful. If you say no to Canada, you're going to basically have to say yes to China or Russia. I don't think that's where you want to be in terms of critical supply chain that are essential for the defence of North America. These are very serious discussions. And I hope, and I believe, that they're going to bring that voice to to the White House. Because at the end of the day, we're their closest partner. And we have seen in 2018, tariffs is not going to help to make America more competitive. Us working closer together will make America more competitive, more secure, and help achieve the the the vision of the president. I was at the Capitol during the inauguration, hearing about the golden age of America. Well, I said, if you want to achieve the golden age of America, if it's good for you, it ought to be good for Canada because we are your largest customer. We buy more from you than China, Japan, the U.K. and France combined. So, you should take note of that and let's work together. That's really what we're trying to shift the discussion towards.

NK: Just finally, Minister, before we let you go, when Prime Minister Trudeau has said the U.S. president, his talk of absorbing Canada is a, quote, real thing, should the goal be to strike a deal with this administration or are you just trying to survive it?

FPC: Well, not with respect. I mean, no one can can infringe on the sovereignty of Canada. Never before. Never in the future. We will always be sovereign. We expect to be treated with respect. Our workers and our industry being partners always. You know, the U.S. will always be a strategic partner for us. But, you know, there is, there is no question when it comes to sovereignty, and no one can remove the pride and the the sovereignty of Canada. And I think this is disturbing to hear that from one of our closest allies. I think they should quite, quite the opposite. They should value and cherish this great relationship they have with a country like us, which, you know, we stood together in conflict. We stood together in making this continent more competitive. And I would say we're the envy of the world in many ways. So, I hope that we can convince them to, to drop that rhetoric and to make sure that we, we can work closer together.

NK: Minister, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

FPC: Thank you very much.

CH: François-Philippe Champagne is Canada's industry minister. We reached him in Ottawa.

[ambient]

WW2 Bomb Town

Guest: Mark Mather

CH: In the northern English town of Wooler, there's a place called Scott's Park. It contains the kinds of things you find in a park: grass, trees, and swings for the kids. But recently, during a construction project, crews found the park also contained items you would not expect or want to find: practice bombs dating back to the Second World War. Dozens and dozens of them. Mark Mather is a Conservative member of Northumberland County Council who also sits on Wooler Parish Council. We reached him in Wooler.

NK: Councilor, the first discovery was back in mid-January. It started with two bombs. What is the count at now?

MARK MATHER: We're now up to 176 of the practice bombs that's been discovered. And they're a mixture of nine-pound and 11.5-pound bombs.

NK: My eyes got very big, as you said, that number and the tally. I'm sure our listeners might feel the same way. When you say practice bombs. What do you mean?

MM: So these would be used for the Home Guard to practice with. So, although the practiced bombs, they do still hold some kind of detonation. So, that would make a bang, and a some smoke, and a flash. So, they are still potentially hazardous. And they have to be treated as if they're a live device until we can prove they are safe. And they will be removed from the site and detonated in a secure location.

NK: Yeah, it's not something you want to, you want to risk, obviously. How were you feeling when you first got this news? I mean, there can be issues with construction and, and planning in the work you do, things like that. You get phone calls all the time, I'm sure. But this is quite unique and surprising, I would imagine.

MM: It is, yeah. When you get the phone call about the first one, it's interesting. The second day, when we found the second device, I thought aren't we spoiled? You know, finding two was going to be a unique story in itself, really. At that point, we were told we had to employ an independent bomb disposal team, and that was when they came in for what we thought was going to be a two-day survey. On the first day, they found 65 of these bombs. I couldn't quite believe it. I thought they were having a bit of a joke, until I went and seen the stack of them. And it was unreal to believe that, you know, that was under the play equipment.

NK: Yeah. Because there was a playground that existed there. Children were playing there all the time before you even started this, this project to upgrade it?

MM: Yeah, absolutely. It's been our, our village playground for as long as I can, I can ever remember. And, yeah, just to think that only a couple of weeks ago, before the, the playground was closed for the redevelopment. Yeah, absolutely. It was alive with young people running around having fun.

NK: So, it goes from, from novelty with that first one in that second one to potential very serious potential hazard in your community. What else was found at the site?

MM: Yeah, we've had a few finds. And it's made it really difficult to clear the site because it's next to an old railway line. So, there's a lot of railway waste as in metal. So, everything, every detection has had to be cleared as if it was a bomb. We found some of the kind of wartime artifacts, an MG 42 machine gun cartridge. We found some 20 millimetre cannon rounds, found half a grenade, 50, 60, maybe, maybe 100 radio batteries. They have all been part of the find so far. Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. And something I'll never forget.

NK: I bet. But, but how are families and parents responding, I wonder? Because everything's fine, thankfully. But, I mean, kids get into things, children dig. You know, the possibilities I can imagine are frightening. So, what are your constituents, what have they been saying?

MM: Yeah, it's been mixed feeling. Definitely a lot of excitement about the story. But there is that underlying feeling of concern about were children safe in being there? And, you know, what, what are the risks? And that's why we've taken this so seriously and employed this team to come in to, to clear the bombs. Brimstones have been absolutely fantastic to work with, reassured us, kept us informed. And, you know, we will not let anybody else onto that site until we have the certificate to say it is clear.

NK: Right. And Brimstones is the company you contracted to do this. This must come at a pretty steep cost for your small community, no?

MM: Yeah, it's, this has been the biggest worry. For a small parish council to be lumbered with a bill of potentially between 30,000 and 40,000 pounds, depending on what else we find. We're only about halfway through the find, and through the dig, I should say. Yeah, it could be a lot bigger. Disappointingly, the Army has said that they're unable to support financially. What we've been really lucky to do is work with the local county council, part of the regenerative vision that we have for the area. And they've said that they will pick up the tab because this had real, a real chance to bankrupt a parish council, or force the council to double tax its population to make sure that we could foot the bill. And, you know, I don't feel that's fair in our local community.

NK: The other big question is: how did no one know about this? You know, how were there no records? Why was a park built on this site? [chuckling] Why wasn't this removal done long ago?

MM: Yeah, there's the type of questions I've been asking myself, and I would love to find out more about the story. We're told that this, Wooler was a centre for training of the Home Guard from people across the country and especially the north east. And we think that's why there's been such a large amount in, in one area. We're told these smaller finds happen generally around building sites across the country, but nothing of this size. And, yeah, at the end of the, the conflict, they were told to just disperse of the equipment. And, and this location, we're told, was where there was some pits training done, pits and trenches dug. So, we think that maybe they just filled the trenches with, with all the training devices and spare ammunition and things and covered it over.

NK: Thanks for this, Councilor.

MM: You're very welcome. Thank you.

CH: That was Councillor Mark Mather in Wooler, England.

[funk]

Yrjö Kukkapuro

Guest: Ida Kukkapuro

CH: Most people don't think too hard about the chair they're sitting in. Unless, of course, it's especially comfortable or especially uncomfortable. But Ida Kukkapuro can't help it. She assesses every single chair she sits in. Because of her grandfather. Yrjö Kukkapuro was a Finnish interior architect and furniture designer, who died this week at the age of 91. He was a household name in Finland, whose chairs are in spaces all over the country -- waiting rooms, subway stations, offices, libraries, living rooms. They're that all-too-rare combination of ergonomic, functional, and stylish. And those famous chairs were largely designed in his studio. In 1967, Mr. Kukkapuro and his late artist wife, Irmeli Kukkapuro, designed their home to be one big space, where they could live and work. The two-hundred-square-metre studio features floor-to-ceiling windows and a wave-shaped roof. And furniture wasn't the only thing developed there: Ida Kukkapuro grew up there, with her mother and her grandparents. We reached her in Helsinki, Finland.

NK: Ida, what was it like to grow up with your grandparents in the middle of all of this creativity?

IDA KUKKAPURO: Well, at the time, it really felt very natural that the work and life merged and everything kind of happened. We lived in this one, one room space where Yrjö and Irmeli both had their studios. And then, me as a young kid and my mother were all living, and it felt very just, just mundane to us. And then, only later I learned that maybe it was not the most [NK chuckles] sort of conventional way of living, but it was a very perfect setting for a, for a kid because, you know, it was really feeding into my creativity and my childhood a lot, so.

NK: If, about your grandfather specifically, I wonder what memories you're playing in your mind right now of when you were a child and spending that time with him?

IK: Well, obviously, so many. And they're all layered because, you know, he's been around for my whole life. For my whole of my life, I think I really kind of think of Yrjö as, like, the kind, kindest person that I know. And, and, you know, he was so humble, which is quite astonishing now when you read also all of friends and, and colleagues have been now thinking of him, and have been writing to us. And it's so touching to hear that, like, everyone has experienced the same. That he has really met everyone with the same eye level, if you can say so.

NK: I know what you mean. I just got goosebumps as you were saying that.

IK: So, it's, yeah, it's really beautiful to kind of think of, think of him together. Like, everyone is having a really, you know, really warm memories of him, and me, obviously.

NK: I have only seen a couple of photographs of your grandfather, but that warmth really comes, comes across just naturally. His smile, and he's sitting in one of his chairs. Are you sitting in one of the chairs he designed?

IK: I am at home, and I have his sofa, and I have his chairs. We're a family that is not really lacking furniture. [both chuckle]

NK: And, you know, for some of our listeners, they may not have heard your grandfather or your grandmother's names. But in, in Finland, the work is very pervasive. It's not just in your house, or in a few people's houses. Can you give our listeners a sense of just how much of an imprint he made on your country?

IK: I think it's, it's fair to say that, I guess, his furniture has, have touched like almost every Fin at some point. Because they are present in the metro stations, in the bank, and the opera house, and hospitals, and libraries, homes, obviously. So, they're really ubiquitous in Finland. And in the '80s when it was kind of wild and the furniture was exported to many places, so there were, like, he always said, and I have not counted, but there are millions and millions of chairs in Sweden, and Russia, Germany, and even Australia there was an outpost. So, there are more of them than you would first think. [chuckle]

NK: And so, does, do you feel at home everywhere then?

IK: Yeah, that's the thing. When I go to, for example, to see a doctor, and then I sit down, I'm like, hmm, actually, I'm sitting in my grandfather's chair. So, that happens quite often. And so, it does make me feel, feel at home. Because obviously, I have grown up, and I still live surrounded by this particular esthetic of, of his designs.

NK: What a beautiful thing at any time. But, but especially now. We actually have a clip of your grandfather from an interview, a feature interview, he gave back in 2016. It was conducted in English, and he was talking about the studio that you and your mother are now working to turn into a museum, continuing to turn into a museum, and artist space. He's also speaking about your grandmother, Irmeli.

SOUNDCLIP

YRJÖ KUKKAPURO: We was dreaming to have a 200 square metres room. One room without any, any walls between. You know, mixing all our life and work together without any, any support. My wife, Irmeli, is also working here. Making art. It gives me very, very heavy inspiration every day. We have good vis a vis. It has been very, very good. A very good time.

NK: That's beautiful to hear for me. What about you? How do you think he would feel to know that what you're working on is going to be shared with so many people now?

IK: That was super nice to hear his voice. Well, I think, because we've been already working on the museum project, for example, together, and we were pondering together, like, what should we do with the building? Because it's not really, as I said, it's not a conventional building. So, I think it was really, really nice to have him kind of brainstorming with my mother, so that we are not now deciding ourselves, like, what should we do? But he really wanted to remain somewhat active so that it can also be used by designers, or architects, or other creatives as a space. But also, that we want to, you know, save parts of the, their working corners of the house, and their sort of tables, and their art, and prototypes there so that the work is visible. But, at the same time, can be used for a small workshop. We have already had some school, university school groups coming over and spending a day there so that it can really inspire other people as well. Because it's a really special space, and it's a really special experience in the space. And we see it all the time when people come and they are like, I'm going to be only for 45 minutes. And after two hours, they're like, I don't want to leave.

NK: [laughing] The creativity continues.

IK: The creativity definitely continues. And that's really comforting at this very, very particular moment especially.

NK: Ida, I'm so grateful for your time. Thank you.

IK: No worries.

CH: Ida Kukkapuro is the granddaughter of the late furniture designer Yrjö Kukkapuro. We reached her in Helsinki, Finland.

[chillhop]

Moth Mansion

CH: Can you hear that? That’s a single moth, fluttering around the studio in here. It’s so delicate. And this, this fragile beauty -- oh, look, there's another one. Huh…a couple more, actually. Wait…hundreds of moths are pouring out of the vent! [moth fluttering increases. Oww! Oww, one’s in my eye! And there must be at least six in my wine, and this is a 2019 Silver Oak Cabernet Sauvignon! Well, now I know how Iya Patarkatsishvili and her husband, Yevhen Hunyak, felt. Six years ago, they bought a mansion in West London for the equivalent of $57 million Canadian. For that exorbitant price, they knew they were getting a built-in movie theatre, a pool, a spa, and a wine room, among other amenities. [spits] Sorry: moth. They did not know they were getting a bunch of tiny roommates who would batter themselves against every light bulb they ever turned on, gobble holes in their designer underpants, and drown themselves en masse in their Shiraz. The place was infested with moths. Which the seller had failed to divulge. During the sale process, he insisted he was not aware of any vermin infestation. And when he was asked about that in court, he explained that he had been advised that moths did not count as vermin. At which point the judge said, "Oh, well, that's fine then," and everyone shook hands and left. Just kidding: the judge accused the seller of "fraudulent misrepresentations", and granted the couple a full refund -- plus an extra $27,000 for the clothes they lost to moths. And given the sums involved, it must be a huge relief for them to get a return on their infestment.

[techno]

Part 2: Christies AI Art, Cockatoo Dip Study

Christies AI Art

Guest: Sasha Stiles

CH: Later this month, the auction house Christie's will do something it's never done before: Every single piece in its "Augmented Intelligence" art sale will be created with the aid of artificial intelligence. And while you think to yourself, "I don't think I like that," I'll tell you that a lot of people don't think they like it. Over 3,000 people have signed an open letter calling for Christie's to cancel the auction, saying the AI models were created using the work of artists who were never credited, or compensated, or asked for consent. Sasha Stiles is one of the artists whose work will be part of the Christie's auction. We reached her in Milford, New Jersey.

NK: Sasha, I wonder, are you, are you prepared for the possibility that Christie's might heed these calls for this auction to be canceled? What would that mean for you and your work?

SASHA STILES: I mean, I really hope that doesn't happen. I hope the auction is not called off. To me, you know, as distressing as it is to sort of consider all of the conflicting emotions that are behind this open letter, for me, I'm actually sort of invigorated by the fact that it has galvanized this debate. Because, to me, the value of an auction like this is ultimately about the, the dialog and the potential for opening up deeper discourse. And also, you know, to have a much-needed conversation about the role of art and artists in reckoning with this very complex moment that we're in.

NK: The letter, which you've likely seen --

SS: Yes.

NK: Criticizes the show by saying it, quote, further incentivizes AI companies' mass theft of human artists work, unquote. They're saying that AI is built on the labour of human beings who were not paid, and did not consent to having their work used to create this, this now new art. What do you make of that argument? Because that is the biggest one, and the one we hear most often?

SS: I think, you know, the artists in this show are really engaging with these tools in order to interrogate, and to explore, and to, to challenge, and to engage with a really seismic technology that is upending a lot of, you know, what we take for granted about what it means to be human. And that's a really important and valid thing for artists to be doing. I think we're all very much of the mindset we would like these kinds of technologies to be used in, in good and responsible and ethical ways. And we would like for artists to feel empowered. And ultimately, those are the intentions that are going into these, these artworks.

NK: There's, you know, implicit in the criticism and in, in, the letter is that there's complicity by using AI to, to make art, rather than critical thinking. How do you balance that in your practice?

SS: I mean, I think that has a lot to do with some of the fundamental misunderstandings of how artists are using AI tools as opposed to, you know, maybe how AI tools are being used in other contexts. You know, a lot of artists, including myself, were using very, very customized, personalized versions of these models. A lot of these artists are training their own models, and kind of building them from the ground up in different ways. They're using, you know, models that are trained on their own work. It really sort of complicates that more superficial understanding of AI is sort of a low-effort, you know, push button kind of output, which is certainly not true in my case, and not true for, you know, for the, for the artists in the show.

NK: How do you deal personally with the reality that your work, your words, your poems could be used by AI without your consent or credit to you?

SS: You know, I think a lot about the fact that my work as a human poet for many, many years, you know, has to do with me having spent all this time reading countless books and having ingested, you know, numerous poems, and memorized all sorts of things by other writers, not with their consent, but just because, you know, these are, these are artworks and works of literature that have been published. And that have been made part of, you know, the cultural conversation. And they're there, you know, to be read and to inspire their readers. And to be utilized by people like me as seeds of inspiration for new artworks. I think, ultimately, all creativity is collaborative, and is communal, and is collective. And that's not to say that we shouldn't be working towards a better system for all. It's not to say we shouldn't be working towards making sure that all artists are empowered and compensated for the work that they do. I think it's important to kind of take a step back and understand just how much of culture is the product of this kind of collaboration, and co-mingling, and iteration, and recycling.

NK: Knowing what you know about how the industry works, though. What do you think could or should be done to make sure that emerging artists in particular are compensated properly for their work?

SS: You know, on the one hand, I think it is sort of important to understand that when it comes to the mechanics of how a lot of these models work, one source, one person's work being ingested into a system that is so, so massive means that, ultimately, the output is really not going to be influenced in a really significant way by one particular artist or one particular writer. In that sense, I think there may be a somewhat skewed understanding of what happens when your work is, you know, quote/unquote ingested into a model. I mean, the reality of it is that the influence of any one writer or any one artist on an output is going to be fairly small. You know, pretty much negligible. But, of course, you know, I'm an artist. I'm a writer. I would feel horrible if someone was, you know, taking my work and exploiting it, or using it in ways that, you know, I think are not right. And part of me wants to say that, well, that is sort of the price you pay when you put work out into the public sphere in some way. The other part of it is that, of course, you know, there are ways of building systems from the ground up where artists and writers are invited to opt in. Or who have the ability to become part of a system where there is more traceability, where they are, for example, invited to license work or license an approach. I think one of the reasons why, you know, this letter is so interesting is because there are a lot of artists in the show who are actively doing the work to champion artists' rights, and to sort of make sure that we're creating systems where that kind of exploitive or extractive behaviour doesn't happen. And this is actively discouraged. I think it's only going to be easier to do that when more and more artists are sort of involved in the process from the inside out, which is what, again, a lot of us are sort of hoping for, and kind of working to make happen.

NK: Sasha, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SS: Of course. My pleasure. Thank you for, thank you for chatting about this.

CH: Sasha Stiles is an artist whose work will be featured in Christie's "Augmented Intelligence" auction, we reached her in Milford, New Jersey. Where do you stand on AI-powered art? And why? Let us know by calling Talkback at 416-205-5687. Or email us at aih@cbc.ca.

[hip-hop]

Tariffism

CH: At this point, the word "tariff" is probably featuring heavily in your nightmares. I've certainly woken up screaming it into my pillow. It's hard to escape the word and the topic these days, after weeks of U.S. President Donald Trump threatening tariffs, and in some cases going on a tariff spree. Now, some clever Canadians have suggested a word to describe the phenomenon: tariffism. Rana Nelson is a teacher at Revelstoke Secondary School in British Columbia.

SOUNDCLIP

RANA NELSON: Right now, I am standing in my Grade 11 creative writing classroom with all my class. You're on speakerphone.

CHRIS WALKER: [chuckle] Hi, everybody.

EVERYBODY: Hi, Daybreak Kelowna!

CW: Hey. [chuckling] Amazing. Rana, why are we calling you again?

RN: [both chuckling] You're calling me because a week, 10 days ago, I heard CBC discussing the practice, the potential practice of Donald Trump charging 25 per cent on Canadian goods. So, tariffs.

CW: Right.

RN: And the chaos that this was causing in our country. And so, I said to my daughter on a Saturday night that was making supper, this is tariffism!

CW: This is what now? Tariffism?

RN: Tariffism, very funny, Mom! [CW chuckles] And then, as I was driving to school that Monday, Graham from Nelson called in and used the same word.

CW: Yes, he did.

RN: Which I was thrilled about.

CW: And we have that call lined up. So, here's Graham from last week.

GRAHAM: I'm not sure anyone else has come up with this term yet, but I think we should be referring to this move by one man, and not just another thing, America, but really one man. And that should be not Trumpism, but tariffism.

CW: Now --

RN: And so then, I thought, okay, I'm now going to get my creative writing 11 class to make up a definition for Tariffism. [CW chuckles] So, we started with an assignment learning about what makes a good dictionary definition, how to create one, and then they practiced writing some simple ones like glass, or desk, or book.

CW: Right.

RN: And then, we chatted a bit about the current situation because one of our big ideas in creative writing is creative writers are observant of the world. And so, we chat about current events. And so then we, I told them the story about tariffism. And then, we said, okay, we're going to tackle making definitions. So, they worked together in different groups to come up with a definition. And we revised, and we edited, and rewrote, and we scratched out, as you do with good writing. And we came up with a final one.

CW: Okay. Which we'll hear in a moment. But I want a show of hands from the class. And you'll have to interpret because we can't see, obviously. But, Rana, how many of you in that class knew what a tariff was before this all started?

RN: One, two, three, four.

CW: Just ballpark.

RN: Like two-thirds.

CW: Two-thirds. Wow, that's a pretty well-educated Grade 11 class. Okay.

RN: Yes. And I have to say also that I have six international students, no, eight international students. And so, that vocabulary was new to them in English. So, they may have known it in German.

CW: Okay. Well, Germany's next. So, you know, hang on to your hats. [both chuckle] All right, Rana, I am very curious to hear what, what you came up with as a, as a class, as a definition of this.

RN: So, we have one student here who is going to read it out for us.

CW: Okay. Who's this? Who's this?

JACK PIQUE: Hi, Sir. My name is Jack Pique. It's nice to meet you.

CW: Nice to meet you, too, Jack, You don't have to call me sir, but I appreciate that. [chuckling] And well-mannered young man. What do you got for me, Jack?

JP: All right, you're ready?

CW: I am ready.

JP: Tariffism is a political strategy using import taxes to exploit and or coerce a country by putting them in financial distress.

CW: That's a pretty good definition.

CH: Grade 11 creative writing teacher Rana Nelson, and her students at Revelstoke Secondary School speaking with the CBC's Chris Walker -- host of Daybreak South in British Columbia.

[soul]

Cockatoo Dip Study

Guest: Jeroen Zewald

CH: I don't know if you've ever eaten just plain pasta noodles, but if you're over the age of 10 and plan to try it I should tell you: it's not very good. I mean, it's fine -- no offence to the indignant children out there. But when you consider the world of flavours and sauces available to you, why would you deprive yourself? Put some stuff on it! And cockatoos agree with me. It turns out they also find plain pasta a bit bland. At least that's what a new study from the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna suggests. But the birds' choice of seasoning is kind of unorthodox. Jeroen Zewald is the study's lead author. We reached him in Vienna.

NK: Jeroen, this started this research was triggered by a phone call. Who was on the other end of that call, and what did they say?

JEROEN ZEWALD: Yes. So, my supervisor also was at the other call. And she, she and her daughter, actually, it was her daughter. So, the cockatoos dunking in, in yogurt, which was a really crazy finding that they had made. And I was super excited of that. So, we really wanted to publish with that. But yeah, it started with one phone call.

NK: And what, how quickly did you make your way over there when, when they described this, this scene to you?

JZ: I was there the next day immediately. Yeah, it was quite late in the evening already when, when they called me. But I, of course, we started immediately after that because, yeah, such a chance you can't just waste.

NK: What kind of yogurt are we talking about here? Because, you know, Balkan yogurt with pasta. My people enjoy that. I enjoy that very much. But what kind of yogurt are we talking about?

JZ: Yeah. So, so, it's, it's a good thing to note that this is soy yogurt. So, it's not actually a real yogurt because not all parrots can, can digest that very well. But this is a blueberry soy yogurt that they mainly preferred. So, just the one you find in your supermarket.

NK: That, I like the fact that they don't like bland food, but I'm concerned about their particular flavour matches that they're making. How often does this, does this happen that animals actually combine foods to enhance flavour? Because pet owners will certainly know that, you know, different pets will have different preferences. And you can tell when they like something or they don't. But, but actually combining foods to make them taste better seems unique.

JZ: Yes, exactly. Yeah. So, so, the specific thing here is that they are combining the food. So it's not some, some, just a taste preference. It's really, they want to, like, improve the food. And this is actually really rarely studied in animals. There's, there is one example from, from the '60s where Japanese macaques, so monkeys, dunked sweet potatoes in salt water. And then, the idea was that they might season it with this salt water, but they, since this was in the wild, they couldn't really follow up on this study. And we had the great opportunity that since we have this, this aviary where we have our cockatoos, that we could actually follow up on this and investigate in much more detail.

NK: Let's talk in more detail about what was on the menu.

JZ: Yes. So, for food, we gave them, like, pasta, like noodles, cauliflower, carrots, and potatoes. And as to the different medium that they could dunk in, we gave them water, neutral yogurt, and the blueberry soy yogurt. And the, the idea was that if they, if the goal of their behaviour was just to soak their food, they might as well just put it in the water. And if they had just a preference for the texture of the yogurt, maybe that would help to swallow their food or something. And they could use the neutral yogurt, which had no flavour. And if it was really about the flavour, we had the blueberry yogurt, in which they could really flavour their food with that. And yeah, that's also what we, what we found is that they really preferred this blueberry yogurt to dump their food in.

NK: And was there any particular dunking method that they employed?

JZ: So, so the interesting thing is that in this case, they really, like, they took the noodles, they put it in the yogurt, and really dragged it around through the yogurt to get as much yogurt on it as possible. [NK chuckles] Kind of like you would do when you dunk your fries in ketchup, for example. And, yeah, once they, they started eating it, sometimes after eating the combination for a bit, they would run out of the yogurt on the noodle, and then they would just put it back, start swirling it around again, and, and eating it again. So, they were, they were, yeah, really enthusiastic about the combination.

NK: [chuckling] Cauliflower, carrots were not dipped in the yogurt, I understand, by these birds. Why do you think that is?

JZ: Yes. So, so, we found that they were mainly dunking the potatoes and the noodles. And that just shows how specific this behaviour is. That they are really going for not just any combination with yogurt, but specifically noodles and potatoes with, with yogurt.

NK: They like their sugar and their carbs, is what you're saying? [chuckling]

JZ: Yes. Yes. But specifically, the combination of these two food items, and not just any.

NK: This was a small group of birds to start with, but about half of them in your study actually exhibited this behaviour. What does that signal to you?

JZ: Yes. So, so, we have, like, 18 cockatoos. And half of them dunked their food. And this shows that it's not part of their general repertoire. This is not like an innate behaviour that's just in them. And we also know from colleagues that work in the, in the wild with these cockatoos, so Indonesia, where they actually live, that they've never seen them dunk this kind of food there. So, this, this shows that it's probably something one or multiple individuals discovered on their own, like an innovation basically. And that shows how flexible they are and how intelligent they are in their, in their ways. They can really adapt quickly to a new environment. And in this case, yeah, they had a problem of their own, which was that our food apparently was too bland for them. [NK chuckles] So they, yeah --

NK: They made it known.

JZ: Yeah, very creative. [chuckling]

NK: Jeroen, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

RN: You're very welcome.

CH: Jeroen Zewald is a PhD candidate at the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna. And that's where we reached him.

[Latin]

Leafs Announcer Obit

CH: He called it like he -- and every Toronto hockey fan -- saw it. Paul Morris, the voice of the Toronto Maple Leafs, and a local legend, died last week after a lengthy illness. He was 86 years-old. For 38 years, Mr. Morris was the PA announcer for the Leafs. The last time they won the Stanley Cup, in 1967, it was Paul Morris at the mic introducing the president of the NHL, along with the trophy. Here's what that sounded like on CBC airwaves:

SOUNDCLIP

FOSTER HEWITT: The Stanley Cup, is at centre ice. It'll be presented in just a moment. Meanwhile, the photographers are all around.

PAUL MORRIS: Ladies and gentleman, Mr. Terrence Campbell, the president of the National Hockey League, [people booing] will now present the Stanley Cup to the Toronto Maple Leafs.

CH: He was known for that delivery -- which will be familiar to generations of Maple Leaf fans. Today, the Leafs' current PA announcer, Mike Ross said, "His was the voice I grew up hearing on Saturday nights sitting alongside my Grandpa." And Leafs legend Darryl Sittler said "His voice was synonymous with the Gardens. It's true that players thought they'd truly made the NHL when they heard him announce their name." Mr. Morris announced the final game at Maple Leaf Gardens, and then the first game at Scotiabank Arena, which was then called the Air Canada Centre. And on the day of that last Gardens game, February 13th, 1999, the CBC's Hockey Night in Canada paid tribute to his time at the Gardens mic.

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL MORRIS: Toronto goals scored by number 19, frederick Modine. [cheering] Assist number 32, Steve Thomas, and number 25, Jason Smith. Time, 54 seconds. It's home. It's always has been home because my father started in the, on the building when they put the shovel in the ground. And he was here until he died. And so, our families, our whole life, right from the very first that I can remember, revolved around what was on at The Gardens. It's a building that is so famous in Canada that everybody, everybody in Canada thinks they know Maple Leaf Gardens, and many of them have never been in it. And when they do come in, it's like a shrine to them almost. I don't think you could be in one place for as long as I have been, and the family association with the building and not be sad. But I also recognize that nothing goes on forever. Everything comes to an end sooner or later.

CH: Toronto Maple Leafs announcer Paul Morris speaking with the CBC in 1999. Mr. Morris has died at the age of 86.

[jazz]

Part 3: Ottawa Hog Farmer, Paranormal Earthquake Study

Sask Border Town

CH: Over the past few weeks, we've all heard over and over again that Canada and the U.S. are inextricably and intricately linked. The best of friends, closest of allies, And that the tensions over Donald Trump's tariffs threaten to destroy all of that. It's possible that no place better illustrates that closeness than North Portal, Saskatchewan and Portal, North Dakota. Those two villages share a border. They also share a fire department, and a golf course: the ninth hole begins in Canada, and ends in the U.S. North Portal, Saskatchewan mayor and volunteer firefighter Amy Armstrong says that gives them a very interesting perspective.

SOUNDCLIP

AMY ARMSTRONG: You know, I would say not a lot has changed just because we both are so mutually dependent on each other. Both communities have so many things that we share with each other, whether it is that golf course, like you'd said. So, the clubhouse is actually situated in the U.S., and so is hole nine. And the rest of the golf course is actually in Canada. So, you can actually come here, not need a passport and golf it. So, that is a big draw in the summer, obviously. And then, like you'd said, our fire department. We have members from both Canada and U.S. on it.

LEISHA GREBINSKI: What do you make then of, of the response to this? So many people saying buy Canadian, boycott American products. What are your thoughts on that?

AA: I understand that. And I do also support buying Canadian. But when we're such a small town, we do have to support the locals there, too. You know, we go across to Rosie's Cantina, and we support her. And, you know, you support the golf course because all of them are our friends. Most of the people have grown up together with them. Like, I just know I've been told stories for, because I'm not originally from here. So, I've been told stories that say before September 11th, you really didn't have to show any paperwork. Like, the kids would, you know, if the parent worked across the line, you know, the kids rode their bikes over there. They didn't have to show any passports. So, they were used to going back and forth. And I think, so the older generations are so used to not having to have that divide of an international border. They just came back and forth so frequently.

LG: Do you know how people voted? Like, do you ever talk about politics? Do you have any idea if any of your neighbours are Trump supporters?

AA: [chuckle] I did bring it up once, and the fire chief had said he has really nothing to do with politics. I don't think it's something he really thinks of. But no, I was told, I was told you don't bring up politics. [both laughing]

LG: I think a lot of people were told that. Do you have any advice, though, for people, or just any, any reflections knowing that you have so many American people who you're, you're, you're close to? What would you say to others who are finding it really difficult right now to navigate these relationships?

AA: I just think you have to think of the people first. You know, all of this, you can't let it harm the interest of all of us. You know, we have connections to each other. And you have to, that's what's important.

CH: That was Amy Armstrong, the mayor of North Portal, Saskatchewan, speaking with Leisha Grebinski, host of CBC Regina's Blue Sky.

[international]

Mini-Update: Welsh Bitcoin

CH: Last time we heard from James Howells he was down in the dumps, and down on the dump -- specifically the town dump in Newport, Wales. That's where he believes a hard drive containing 8,000 Bitcoin ended up, when his then-partner accidentally threw it away back in 2013. Mr. Howells believes the digital currency could now be worth about a billion dollars Canadian. When Nil spoke with him last month, he had just lost a legal battle with the Newport City Council to gain access to the landfill, in order to search for the drive.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES HOWELLS: Obviously, I've lost the recent court action that I took against Newport City Council. I disagree with the decision. It was thrown out at the first hurdle, without even getting into a whole trial where the full details could have been explained. You know, the judge ruled that, you know, there was no chance of success at all, which I don't think is fair. But, yeah, what else can I do? I may be, I may be, I can appeal the decision, but I've got to request permission from the same judge just to appeal. So, I'm not really confident that he'll even grant that permission.

NK: Why is this fight worth fighting, in your view, after more than a decade now?

JH: It is a matter of principle, at the end of the day. It's my property. It belongs to me. It is very, very valuable. I should be able to recover said property. I've got a recovery team in place that could do it. I've got external finance in place so that Newport City Council are not out of pocket in any way, shape, or form. And we have committed to covering all of the environmental aspects. We'd like to do this to a triple A standard.

CH: James Howells speaking with Nil in January. And now, Mr. Howells has had another setback -- but it's one he hopes he can turn into an opportunity. It turns out Newport City Council is planning to close and cap the site in the coming year, which would effectively end any chance of recovering that fortune. So, Mr. Howells' new plan is to buy the entire landfill "as is" and let the search begin -- assuming the so-far unsupportive council agrees to that plan.

[rock]

Ottawa Hog Farmer

Guest: Bruce Hudson

CH: The prospect of further cross-border tariffs is frightening for business owners in pretty much every industry. And Bruce Hudson is among those who fear it could put him out of business altogether. He lives in Ontario, but despite being located an hour from the Quebec border, the sixth-generation hog farmer sends some 80 per cent of his hogs south, to meat processors and buyers in the U.S. And he says the uncertainty of the Trump era is all the more frustrating because of his certainty that there's an obvious home-grown solution: removing the barriers that prevent him from shipping pigs interprovincially, to Canadian processors. We reached Bruce Hudson in Ottawa, at the Future of Food Conference.

NK: Bruce, with all this uncertainty, how have you been sleeping these last few weeks?

BRUCE HUDSON: I think last Monday was, a week ago Monday was probably the worst. Everybody, especially at the Ontario Pork office, was getting bombarded with calls from producers wondering what should we do? What should we do? We couldn't give them an answer because we don't know what's going to happen. So, you know, that's unfortunate. But, I mean, we farmers are fairly, fairly resilient, and we can get through it, so.

NK: We're reaching you in in Ottawa because you're at the Future of Food Conference there. I mean, is, are tariffs all that anyone is talking about?

BH: It has been mentioned quite frequently. And the gist of the conversation was, I think we have to get over that and look to the rest of the world, you know? And not be so, so content with shipping to the, to the US as being our only customer.

NK: People, people might hear that and say, rest of the world? Why not the rest of Canada? Why not pivot and sell your products across Canada?

BH: Well, that's true. And it's, the interventional barriers are there. Every, every province has their own little thing. And, yes, we, if we could, if we could recognize Quebec pork is the same as Ontario pork and vice versa, same as Manitoba and all the other provinces. That would certainly help the flow. In reality, 70 per cent of the Canadian production ends up for export. Yeah, it's, it's the interventional barriers would be a nice start.

NK: What are the specific barriers? What are other provinces doing to keep your product out?

BH: Well, in Ontario, provincially inspected regulations don't necessarily coincide with, with other provinces. Ontario provincial inspects its pork. I can't sell to Quebec, and Quebec can't sell their provincially inspected pork to Ontario. If it's a federal plant, different story. We could move meat. But, but it's that provincial legislation that prevents that, that barrier.

NK: And agricultural policy is a shared federal-provincial responsibility, we should underline for our listeners. It's still, you know, you and your colleagues are used to it. But I bet it's a head-scratcher for, for a lot of people. How are regulations not, not the same? I mean, someone in Quebec is expecting, you know, a quality of pork that someone in Ontario or elsewhere would be expecting as well.

BH: That's, that's, that's, that's right. That's certainly right, you know? I think we, we're all producing meat and meats processed to, to standards for the consumer to be, to eat a healthy and wholesome product. So, yes, that's, it's hard to understand and how that can't be a bit more fluid.

NK: You, as I understand it, moved a lot of your business to the United States in 2023 because a federally licensed processing plant in Quebec had closed at the time. So, are barriers to interprovincial trade really the issue, or is it lack of processing capacity in this country?

BH: Oh, processing capacity is probably the number one. And it's not just pork, it's beef, and milk, and everything. So, yeah, processing capacity. One thing, farmers, we can produce the product, and we just need the infrastructure to process it in Canada, and that would create jobs and create opportunity.

NK: Because of those capacity issues, though, Quebec's provincial processors are reportedly required to give priority to Quebec hogs and hog farmers. Is that understandable to you, given that the province wants to protect farmers there and their access?

BH: Yeah, I mean, it is understandable, I guess, in terms of that, But I mean, I've had a relationship with Quebec for 40 years, and, and up until, up until now. So, it's, I mean, I understand the dynamics of the Quebec industry, but we are all pork producers. And, you know, I think you have to, you have to talk to Quebec to see what the real reason is.

NK: Are you sensing a shift just in those conversations at the conference and in the, you know, with with your other colleagues as well in Ontario that, that there, because we've been hearing from, you know, those who were at recent summits with, with federal leaders about breaking down these barriers. Are you sensing a shift that, that, that's, that's closer to happening than ever before?

BH: I think there is. I think there's a will. I mean, we, we have the Canadian, Canadian people want to buy Canadian, whether it's, whether it's produced in Quebec, or Ontario, Manitoba, or B.C. The hits on our Ontario Pork website are, they have increased ever since this has started. And the public is demanding it now. And I think we need to respond to it.

NK: What would you like to see from both levels of government at the end of the day to, to give you what you need and the access that you need?

BH: I think you've got to have regulations that work for everybody. There's too many, there's too many silos there that, that serve to differentiate, try to, try to differentiate, but we're all under the same, the same goal.

NK: Can you imagine, well, I'm thinking of a couple of scenarios. One, can you imagine a time where, in the near future where all of your product would, would stay here? Could you move that 80 per cent of your business from the U.S. To Canada?

BH: Well, it was, I was in Canada because the processing was my problem. We lost, we lost the plant. Twenty-five thousand hogs from Ontario went to Quebec every, every week. And that plant closure has resulted in 25,000 pigs a week going to the U.S.

NK: You've seen, I'm sure, you know, from all the generations your family has done this, but as long as you've been alive as well, you've seen the shift from local to a globalized world. And now, we're back here again when we're saying, yeah, we should, everyone should buy local. [BH chuckles] What do you make of living through all of that and seeing this come around?

BH: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's interesting. You know, it's interesting since this whole issue has come to, come to the table, that more people asking about, you know, can I, can I buy your pork, you know?

NK: Yeah.

BH: And so, so, that's, it's interesting how that's come around. And whether, whether we can sustain that or not, I really hope we can because it may be the future of ag.

NK: It was it's past, too.

BH: It was past, to, yes. [laughing] Yes, yes that's true. I think that's the, that's the issue with my next generation as we also grow sweet corn and vegetables, too. And I think there's, I do need to invest in the industry. And if I don't have a sustained market, marketplace where I can sell my animals, it's going to really dictate whether, whether I keep staying in the pig business and the next generation takes it up.

NK: Great to speak with you, Bruce. I appreciate it.

BH: Well, thanks, Nil. Appreciate it, too.

CH: Bruce Hudson is a sixth-generation hog farmer in Ontario. We reached him in Ottawa.

[‘90s toy stor music]

QC Snow Labyrinth

CH: Marnie MacDonald is trying to find people to get people lost. For more than 20 years, the Montreal woman has been maintaining a snow labyrinth at Outremont Park every winter. Its precise location and layout changes, sometimes multiple times a year, as the snow comes and goes. But Ms. MacDonald's commitment to it has never changed. Now, though, she's 75 years old. And snow labyrinth maintenance is hard work. So she's put out a call for someone new to carry on her tradition of systematically stomping on snow for the sake of the public. And to help inspire would-be snow stompers make a start, she told the CBC how she got hers.

SOUNDCLIP

MARNIE MACDONALD: Well, I learned doing Labyrinth from groups where we do Labyrinths when we were doing various things in the grass. We'd mow them in and stuff. And I, I was just drawn to it. So, I just started, I think it was in 2004. And I, it was a huge snow form, maybe 40 centimetres, whatever. And so, it was really, it was virgin. And I thought, I want to walk the labyrinth. And then, I just kept it up. It was one of those things, it wasn't a decision. Again, I, I had to do it. And then, I had to keep it up. And then, so I've continued pretty well for, since then.

SARAH JESMER: Is it a maze?

MM: No. Maze is, at least the way I look at it, and a lot of people do, is maze, you don't know where you're going, and you could get lost. In a labyrinth, there's just one way in and one way out.

SJ: So, you're not, like, choosing different places to stop and start. It's sort of, you start at the middle, and you're going around.

MM: Well, you start at the beginning.

SJ: Yeah.

MM: And then, you walk in. And you think you're walking to the middle, but suddenly, not. So, you just follow, you don't have to know anything. [chuckling] You just follow the path. And then, often, you'll stop and just think about something. You're drawn to stop, so you'll stop. And then, you move around, and then, and you lose all sense of where you are. You're not in this park. You're, you're in a different place. And sometimes, I've had connections with all, like, all the labyrinths of all time because labyrinths are amazing. Like, they're almost in every culture. So, once in a while when I've been working on it, I've felt that kind of like a geodesic dome where there was labyrinths from all times and all countries all over. And then, we were all connecting. Like, yeah, it's pretty, pretty special. It's quite a mystery thing, yeah.

SJ: Every year when you do it, is it just as big? What's the biggest one you make? And the question that a lot of my colleagues have had, too, is how tall do you make them? How high up?

MM: Do you see, that's all to do, that's the thing is a dance with, with nature. So, if the, the snow is two inches, it's two inches. If it's four feet, it's four feet. Because you don't build a, you don't, you don't build a wall. You're just stomping a path into it. There are good, I say sacred places where you can take anything. Like, somebody I've met here, someone I didn't know, but she came and she said that she walked the labyrinth every time she was doing chemo. Like, she needed the labyrinth to walk through. Or a friend of mine, also another friend that I know, said that it was the, the between Christmas and New Year's, where it's just the, the tunnel of dark, that this kept her through. It's, I guess, a contemplation. People do it for different reasons and different ways, and, and stuff. Sometimes, people will ask a question when they come, and they'll walk in, and then, and then when they come out, they'll hear the answer to the question.

CH: Marnie MacDonald maintains a snow labyrinth in Montreal's Outremont Park. She spoke with the CBC's Sarah Jesmer.

[electronic]

Paranormal Earthquake Study

Guest: Susan Hough

CH: Cars shaking. Doors spontaneously opening. The sound of footsteps emanating from rooms with nobody in them. And mysterious lights, appearing in remote areas. In Charleston, South Carolina, and the surrounding areas, there's no shortage of ghost stories -- not to mention people who swear up and down they've seen or heard paranormal goings-on. It can send a chill down your spine. But now, Susan Hough is putting a chill on those chills -- having arrived at a natural, rather than supernatural, for the creepy shenanigans. Ms. Hough is a geophysicist with the U.S. Geological Survey -- and the author of a new study published in Seismological Research Letters. We reached her in Pasadena, California.

NK: Susan, you were first looking at Charleston because of the earthquake that happened there in 1886. Sixty people were killed in that earthquake. How did you then end up segueing into looking at the ghost stories there?

SUSAN HOUGH: So, to study those earthquakes. We were looking, my collaborator and I, were looking for any scrap of information we could find that could tell us how the ground moved, or what people said about the earthquakes, what happened during the earthquake. So that involves archival research and looking for scraps of information. In the course of that research, I realized that there are publications about ghost stories in Charleston and in Somerville. And that's how I first became acquainted with the, the Somerville Ghost.

NK: And I hear they're, they're pretty, pretty great stories. The story of the mysterious lights in particular, can you tell us about that?

SH: Sure. So, it is said that along a railroad line, it's an old lumber railroad, so not the main line. It's said that that a woman once waited at the end of the line for her husband to come home. He didn't show up. And she later learned that he had been killed in a railroad accident. The story goes that she continued to search, that only part of his remains were found. They didn't find his head, so she continued to search after his death for his remains. And then, even after her death, she came back with a lantern to wander up and down the tracks.

NK: I haven't been to Charleston, but I suspect people there who have heard the story and maybe have seen this and believe, they believe it deeply. What made you think that you know, what's, what's really going on there?

SH: Well, so I have a an idea, a hypothesis. And there's other ghost stories in the area. There are quite a few in Charleston, and I can't claim that I can explain all of them. But when you start to poke into these, these stories and the light in particular, there's a lot about it that really almost screams earthquake phenomenon. So, there's a phenomenon known as earthquake light, where earthquakes are thought to generate lights that people see. It's been somewhat controversial, in part because it's very difficult to study. We don't have conventional data that captures earthquake lights. It's only anecdotal reports. There's been skepticism that maybe what people are seeing is, is manmade phenomenon. Nowadays, you can get transformers exploding, for example, but it's a known phenomenon. So that, you know, that very directly comes to mind for the lights part of the story.

NK: How, in terms of the lights themselves, how exactly is that happening? How are earthquakes making those ghostly lights? Because there was a, at least one headline that, that seems to describe it as, you know, earthquakes releasing gas.

SH: So, it's a concept of a theory maybe to explain earthquake lights. There was a review article just last year by a Japanese scientist who reviewed earthquake light observations, and different mechanisms that could account for them. The one that is, makes the most sense for these, these lights in Somerville involves release of gases from the Earth. The idea is that gases are released from shallow faults. And, in some cases, can emit light. There's a couple of different possibilities. If you have, let's say, radon. You can have glow emitted, light emitted, as electrons are moved between excited and ground states. There's another line of thought that flammable gases like methane or sulfur gases could actually ignite when exposed to oxygen in the presence of a spark.

NK: And have you seen these lights? You know, the scene that, [SH chuckles] where people believe a woman is returning to the tracks mourning her husband?

SH: I have not. I've made just two trips to the area in 2020 to 2023. I was not looking for ghosts. I was, we were looking for evidence that the railroads, the main railroad lines had been disturbed by the earthquake. And we did find one, one place where we think the railroad was actually yanked out of alignment by the railroad. So that was the focus of those studies. And it was only late last fall that I really started to think about the, the ghost stories. So, I haven't been, even been back to Charleston.

NK: If you do go back, I wonder, I mean, maybe people are already reaching out to you. People get very attached, as you know, to the ghost stories. They're part of the mystique of, of the community, I'm sure, it sounds there. So, what kinds of things are, are people saying to you?

SH: I heard from one person who spent the night north of Somerville in a town called Monk's Corner, and they said they were overwhelmed by a smell of sulfur that was coming out of the, coming out of the pipes when they turned the water on, for example. And so, that was, you know, that was one tidbit that sort of fit with the, the theory that there's gases that are being released shallowly and that has something to do with the lights. I am hoping, I would love to hear from people who have seen these lights and, you know, can describe them and, you know, tell me more about the dates that they were seen. I'd love to talk to people who, you know, think I'm wrong or think I'm right or, you know, just --

NK: Maybe they'll change your mind.

SH: Yeah, no, And I don't, I don't. I could be wrong. [chuckling] This could be totally out to lunch. Or maybe, there's, there's various things that you could test. That's what makes it interesting. You could test for the presence of gases, gas release. You could test for the occurrence of teeny tiny earthquakes. There's ways that you could look for evidence of very shallow faults. And if you have a location where the ghosts are seen. So, you know, science, you put out ideas, and they may get shot down or people run with them, and then they lead to other ideas and results.

NK: Yeah. Susan, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

SH: Yeah, Thank you.

CH: Susan Hough is a geophysicist with the U.S. Geological Survey. We reached her in Pasadena, California.

[indie rock]

Corey Crewe Obit

CH: Corey Crewe and Trina Fulford were great to listen to. They were even better to watch. For decades, the husband-and-wife duo drew crowds at venues across their home province of Newfoundland and Labrador. They played music, they told jokes, and generally gave the kind of performance only true entertainers are capable of. Corey Crewe died over the weekend. He was 80. And ms. Fulford passed away in 2007. Geoff Meeker is a former editor of the Newfoundland Herald. He wrote about and befriended the couple during their heyday.

SOUNDCLIP

GEOFF MEEKER: They were animated, charismatic, not the most virtuoso musicians. But they were just very funny, and their show was 90 per cent comedy, really.

KRISSY HOLMES: Right.

GM: Even the songs they played were often humorous songs.

KH: And for anybody, you know, that, that wasn't there for that time, and didn't get to experience that. I mean, just paint us a picture. What was it like to be in the crowd for a Corey and Trina show?

GM: A lot of laughing because that was what they, what was seemed to fuel them. And, as I said, the show was mostly comedy. So, there was dancing in between because they knew that the audience affected a few scuffs as well. And a place that was packed. Like, there were often lineups to get in, in many cases.

KM: Right.

GM: And they played all over the province. I recall that they had an ATV, well, a motorhome. And for maybe 10 years, they toured the province with their daughter staying with them in the motorhome. And in each town they went to, they had to find a local babysitter, which they did quite easily, it turned out. They made a lot of friends everywhere they went.

KH: It puts their, it puts their life in, into, like, great perspective, too. I mean, because they were popular. I mean, just give us their context. I mean, when they were hitting the road, they were, people liked seeing them coming.

GM: Yeah, they did. But their song, "The Northern Lights of Labrador", that was like our local version of "Saltwater Joys" before "Saltwater Joys" came along. It was a song that, you know, touched everybody who'd seen it.

KH: Right. Well, how do you remember that time? And what, what was it like for you to be covering them at their peak at that time?

GM: Well, I went to his house for dinner a few times. And the first time, he said he's going to barbecue some steaks. And I said, Corey, it's February. He said, I'll put the hibachi right here in the fireplace. So, he put the charcoal barbecue in the fireplace and makes the best steaks I'd ever tasted up to that point. He would talk to anybody, and he listened to everybody. And he was that way, too, with the audiences. He didn't spend the time in the back room, but, you know, in between sets, he was out with the audience talking to them -- him and Trina.

KH: What was he like as a person and as a friend?

GM: He would do anything for anybody. And that's something that everyone will agree with. And Trina was the same way. They were just down to earth, fun, always laughing. They weren't happy unless you were happy. And I guess that's how I'd put it.

CH: Geoff Meeker is a former editor of the Newfoundland Herald. He was speaking with Krissy Holmes, host of On the Go.

The AIH Transcript For February 11, 2025

Social Sharing