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The AIH transcript for February 10, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Pedal to the metals. An Ontario steel goods manufacturer tells us what the U.S. president's tariff talk means for his business -- and the contingency plans he's already pushing through.

CH: Kept at Bay. A lawyer with the ACLU says the migrants the Trump administration has flown to Guantanamo Bay are in a legal black hole -- because we don't know who they are, or whether they've even been charged with a crime.

NK: The shock, and the aftershocks. Our guest’s niece just survived the worst shooting in Sweden's history -- and he tells us how people are coping with the possibility that anti-immigrant sentiment may have been the motive.

CH: Blow-by-blow account. The mantis shrimp is known for its powerful punches. And a researcher tells us they pulled no punches in exploring the secret of the shrimp's strength.

NK: It's not easy drinking green. Chartreuse shortages have aficionados feeling a bit blue. But an Ottawa distiller tells consumers not to worry: he's created a similar liqueur that rivals the secret recipe of the French monks who make the original.

CH: And..dead on arrivals and departures. The new airport in Lima, Peru will open in March. But be prepared for one minor inconvenience: there's no easy way to get to or from that airport.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that never struggles to take flight.

Part 1: Tariffs: Steel Manufacturer, Sweden Shooting, Imitation Chartreuse

Tariffs: Steel Manufacturer

Guest: Rahim Moloo

CH: It's official. Donald Trump has signed a proclamation imposing a 25 per cent tariff on all steel and aluminum imports entering the U.S. -- including Canada's. He also confirmed he plans to implement “reciprocal” tariffs on countries that tax U.S. goods in the coming days. The president first announced those plans yesterday, speaking to reporters aboard Air Force One on his way to the Super Bowl. The last time Mr. Trump imposed steel tariffs, in 2018, Canadian steel exports to the U.S. dropped nearly 40 per cent. Rahim Moloo is the managing director and owner of Conquest Steel, a Toronto-based manufacturer of steel goods. The company does a quarter of its business with the U.S. We reached him in Toronto, before this evening's tariff order was signed.

NK: Rahim, I wonder what just the threat of these tariffs has cost your business so far?

RAHIM MOLOO: It's been substantial. I think it's difficult to quantify exactly how much. But if I were to estimate, I think we've already noticed about a 25 per cent drop in sales on our business. A big part of our business is sending product to the US through Canadian distributors as well as U.S. distributors. And even though these tariffs haven't been finalized yet, just the spread of the tariffs was enough for our U.S. distributors to cancel orders and back out of taking inventory. Our Canadian distributors have also temporarily stopped shipping to the U.S., and fulfilling orders the U.S. as well, too.

NK: What do those conversations, what are they like? I mean, if they are conversations ,or you just, you just get an email? Or do you get a call? What are the, the U.S. distributors saying to you when they cancel these purchase orders?

RM: It's, you know, they're all very similar. It tends to revolve around it being nothing personal, just business. It's difficult to do business when tariffs or pricing could change overnight on a whim. So, even if the tariffs are finalized, or a deal is made, or exceptions are made, we're not really anticipating or U.S. partners running back to us because, again, things could change quickly again. Deals could be ripped up. New Tariffs could be implemented.

NK: Does it feel personal?

RM: It's concerning. It keeps more than enough to keep me up at night. But at the end of the day, I think being a business owner, you're faced with the challenges and obstacles. This just happens to be the latest one. I think at the end of the day, you know, you can either throw in the towel, or you can use it to wipe the sweat off your face and get back to work and keep pushing.

NK: How do you keep pushing when the deadline and the goalposts keep changing?

RM: Well, I think for us in particular, we had plans to expand our presence in the U.S. market. We decided to do that by maintaining our production and manufacturing facilities in Canada, shipping to the U.S. instead because we wanted to create jobs and support the local economy. Unfortunately, with these tariffs and threats of tariffs, it's no longer feasible top do it that way. So, instead, we're refocusing our attention and re-committing to the Canadian sector and market instead. And one of the things that we're doing, for example, is partnering with Raised Garden Beds Canada, which is our Canadian distributor of raised garden beds. And we'll be offering a selection of garden beds at cost to Canadian consumers. It will allow us to redirect some of the inventory that was meant for the U.S. that's currently stuck on our floor. It will, hopefully, allow us to keep our employees busy and continue to have them employed and working for us. And, as well, offer Canadians an option to be able to grow their own food affordably and cut down on their grocery bills.

NK: I'm glad you mentioned that, because one of the things I wanted to ask you is that, you know, of course, as we've been covering the story, and, and we hear and see this, this surge in people wanting to buy Canadian. Generally, when, when they're thinking along those lines, they're talking about groceries, or clothing, or small items. So, they might think, well, how, [chuckle] steel and aluminum is not something I'm going to pick up, you know, at my local store. So, I don't think it feels like something that individual Canadians can help with in the, in terms of your industry in particular. But it sounds like you're looking for very tangible and small-scale, as well as large-scale, solutions.

RM: There is actually a lot of ways that the Canadian market can help. The "Made in Canada" brand is very strong in Canada. And Canadians tend to prefer buying products that are made here over ones that are imported. There's been some obstacles with this that we've also had to overcome in this space, such as companies that aren't Canadian that create the impression their products are made in Canada, or that they're a company, whereas they're not. They're selling products that are manufactured and imported from overseas, and they often end up taking our ideas and our IP and repackaging them to Canadians while being a little bit disingenuous about the origins of the product as well, too.

NK: Is that one of the things you would like to see from the Canadian government? For them to do something on that specific front?

RM: Absolutely. I mean, I think even if you look at the Super Bowl yesterday, there's a tonne of Canadian-centric ads from American companies that are slapping maple leafs on, on their advertisement, but they're not really Canadian companies. And for us in particular, you know, we, we design, test, prototype, and manufacture everything in house. But it's been a challenge in order to compete with companies that are overseas, and tend to knock our ideas off. Having the Canadian government protect the Made in Canada brand can really give it more of a fighting chance. I think it's, it's better for Canadian manufacturing and consumers in the long run as well, too.

NK: Have you spoken to any political leaders or officials here in Canada?

RM: No, I haven't. The last couple of weeks, our focus has really been finding ways to keep everybody going and make certain pivots in our business in order to try generating more sales and make up for the lost sales. But that's certainly something that I would like to do. And, hopefully, I have the opportunity to speak with local officials about that.

NK: Have you been able to keep everyone employed? We've certainly heard about layoffs just in the last week, 10 days or so, even before a tariff comes into play. So, what, what situation are you and your team in on, on that front?

RM: You know, so far, we have been able to keep everybody employed. I'm not going to lie. It has been a challenge. We've had to turn off several machines, and fold our night shift into our day shift.

NK: We're speaking to you before any executive order has been signed. These tariffs could go ahead. They may not go ahead. Maybe they'll be less than 25 per cent. Maybe they'll be more. There are so many different scenarios. Let's say 25 per cent an executive order is signed. The minutes after that, what changes for you? What do you have to do?

RM: To be honest, regardless of whether the tariffs go through or there is an executive action, the real key to success is focusing on the Canadian market instead. Even if a deal or an exemption is reached, how can you really have faith that it is not going to be torn up or renegotiated in a couple of weeks based on the whim of somebody in the U.S.? I don't think it's a secret that a lot of Canadian manufacturing has moved overseas or to other countries. This is a real opportunity and a wake-up call that we really need to support and embrace Canadian manufacturing to have it be friends of our country.

NK: Rahim, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RM: My pleasure.

CH: Rahim Moloo is the managing director and owner of Conquest Steel, a Toronto-based steel manufacturer. We reached him in Toronto, earlier today.

[ambient instrumental]

Sweden Shooting

Guest: Abraham Tekin

CH: It was the deadliest mass shooting in Sweden's history. Last Tuesday, a gunman killed seven men and three women at an adult education centre in the city of Örebro, which is about 200 kilometres due west of Stockholm. The victims have not yet been identified -- but police say most of them were originally from outside the country. It’s too early in their investigation for them to say whether that was a motivating factor in the crime. Abraham Tekin's niece was at the school when the gunman opened fire. We reached him in Örebro.

NK: Abraham, I wanted to ask you first of all, how your niece, Maria, is doing?

ABRAHAM TEKIN: She's doing fine right now. I talked to her the other day. Of course, she's a bit shook and shaken by, by the things that happened. But in regards to the circumstances, she's doing pretty well right now.

NK: Shaken is the word you just used there. Is that an appropriate word to describe how other people across Sweden are feeling after this shooting?

AT: I think it's mixed feelings. Some people are mostly shocked. Some people are questioning mostly like how is this possible? But I think everybody Sweden is in some sense, of course, shocked over those events because of the brutality and horror. And I think what scares lots of people is nobody can really understand how somebody can do something so horrific. And the not understanding part, I think, scares lots of people. I think that it stretches across all ages, and from children to younger, older, people born here, people coming here. Nobody can understand that we've been living here for so long, and Sweden is a fantastic country to live in. And it's fast developing a of bad things. We just can't comprehend why it's happening.

NK: Yeah. Your niece was there, as we said. How did you learn about what was happening?

AT: I was working. It was around noon something. And my neighbour at work, we share office. He was knocking on my door and said, you have to read the newspaper. There's something really bad going down, you know? And I'm like, [clears throat] okay, let's see. And the first information, they didn't publish that much. They just said that people living in Örebro, please avoid going to the western part. There's a school there being under attack. We didn't understand what they meant by that. Was it a terrorist attack? Was it some shootings, was it something gang-affiliated? We didn't understand. But rather quickly, we could see on national news agencies they named the school. And when we saw the school, I got really scared because I know it's a big school, who will I know that goes to this school?

NK: You knew several people?

AT: Yeah. At least five that I can account for right now.

NK: Your niece was sending you updates when she could, as they were told to hide. Is that right?

AT: Yeah. So, after a while, I could see in the family chest that we have that my niece posted a video, saying that we are locked in here in a classroom. And we can hear somebody shooting outside. And I am safe right now. And during the entire session, we're having communication with her through chats and stuff like that. And she was updating us. Yeah.

NK: And then eventually, she was, and the others, survivors, were able to, to get out. Police escorted them, them out of all of this.

NK: Yeah.

AT: It will take time for her to come back, if that will ever be possible.

NK: Police have said they're still investigating what the motive might have been in this case. They've said the majority of people who were killed were immigrants to Sweden. What are people in the Syrian community there that you know, what are they saying? What are they feeling right now?

AT: It's mixed emotions. The people want to understand. Some people draw their own conclusions, and then say that this guy wasn't so fond of the immigration policies in Sweden. And then, this was the main reason for him to do that. Some people are more restrained and say, let's wait until the police discovers some concrete facts. I think it's really difficult to find his true intentions. But I personally think that this guy has a political agenda, and he wasn't too fond of immigrants coming to Sweden. But we don't have any proof right now. And Let's see what the police says.

NK: The Swedish government has said that it's going to try to move to tighten gun laws because of what has happened. Is that something that, that you welcome, that you think would help?

AT: I think it's a positive step in the right direction. If we can maybe have more evaluation of people having these licenses for guns. I don't know. If somebody wants to do something really bad like this, I think it's very difficult to prevent this. But whatever is possible to do, I think it's a very good initiative.

NK: The Swedish prime minister, Ulf Christensen, said on television in an address last night, quote, They came from different places in the world, and had different dreams. They were in school to lay the foundation for the future that has now been taken away from them, unquote. Does this make you and your family and your niece question your future in Sweden, or does it still feel like the home you wanted it to be?

AT: No, we still love Sweden. It's a good place to live. But we do feel sorry for those that were affected by this. But we don't feel like that.

NK: Abraham, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

AT: Yeah, okay. Thank you. You too.

NK: Thank you.

AT: Bye-bye.

CH: Abraham Tekin lives in Örebro, and his niece survived the shooting last week. We reached him in Örebro.

[wistful instrumental]

Imitation Chartreuse

Guest: Adam Brierley

CH: If you're a fan of the chartreuse-coloured liqueur Chartreuse, you may have noticed that it's been getting a bit hit-or-miss to get your hands on a bottle lately. But you may not know why. Well, for the past few years, the world has faced a shortage of the French liqueur, which has been produced by an order of monks for centuries. But while it's boomed in popularity -- the monks who make it have maintained a cap on production. So, demand has outstripped supply -- which is frustrating for bartenders, who rely on Chartreuse for classic, or fancy house-specialty, cocktails. But while everyone else just complained, Adam Brierley got to work. He's the master distiller at SFR distillery in Ottawa, and recently his team has been selling their own take on the Chartreuse. We reached Mr. Brierley in Ottawa.

NK: Adam, I had the chance to try Chartreuse once, maybe two years ago, in a drink called "The Last Word" fitting, perhaps, because I haven't seen or tasted it since because it's so hard to get a hold of. How would you describe what Chartreuse tastes like?

ADAM BRIERLEY: It's, it's a hard one to capture, but people who have tasted it definitely know. For me, it's, it has a little bit of bright mintiness. It has a little bit of a peppery spice. It's, it's sweet, as all liqueurs are. And, and it's hard to, hard to quantify outside that.

NK: How does your imitation version stack up, do you think, against the real thing?

AB: Yeah, I think we're pretty close. I've been saying we're about 85 per cent of the way there. It, we definitely captured a lot of, of that mystery that in Chartreuse, I think, in the, the flavours and ingredients that we used. And we've been getting that same feedback from a lot of customers and licensees, you know, bar owners in the area, who've done close side-by-sides. And they say, okay, yeah, you know, you're almost there. It's good enough to be a replacement. It's not quite the real thing. But, but we see where you're going.

NK: So, that must be reassuring at this stage. When did you first start noticing that there was this shortage?

AB: I think, I want to say a little bit before the pandemic. I knew it was hard to come by. I knew it was a very unique thing. But I think it was, it was sort of always there. And, and then, just as we came out of the pandemic, I think somebody else mentioned it to me like, hey, have you been able to find Chartreuse lately? And so, I started to keep an eye out. And it was absent at a lot of locations. And so, it was towards the end of 2023 where I knew at the distillery we were talking about taking on this challenge, and I think I saw that Chartreuse was in stock. Maybe six bottles left at one of the local LCBOs here. And so, I ran out and I grabbed what was maybe one of two left on the shelf. [chuckling]

NK: You're the one! [chuckling] No.

AB: Exactly. [both chuckle] And I've never seen it in stock ever again since.

NK: Well, we're hearing that Ontario is particularly hard hit in terms of this product.

AB: Yes. Yeah. That's what I've come to understand as well. Before, I thought it was just related to the monks capping global production. You know, not really looking to, to satisfy global demand. But I understand that there might be a point of discussion a little closer to home. [chuckling]

NK: Yeah. A source told CBC News in our online coverage of this that there is some sort of a price dispute with LCBO. So, that's part of the equation, at least for Ontario. But you mentioned the monks. Have the monks responded to what you've done? [chuckling].

AB: No. [laughing].

NK: Have you sent them a bottle?

AB: I haven't sent them a bottle yet. I, I don't have their address.

NK: Okay.

AB: [laughing]But I hope it would be received favourably. You know, we're not, we're not doing this as a slight. We're not giving it a sassy name or anything like that. It's, if anything, you know, an homage to what that spirit is. And, you know, they say that, you know, mimicry, mimicry is one of the greatest forms of flattery, or I think the quote goes something along those lines. So, we really mean this out of respect for the original Chartreuse.

NK: Imitation, yeah. And what is your product called?

AB: We call it "The Monks' Secret Herbal Liqueur."

NK: And just tell our listeners a little bit more about that origin story as you've heard it.

AB: Of course. Yeah. So, the story, as I understand it, goes that in 1605 God appeared in front of this French lord, and bestowed them with the recipe for the elixir of life, which we now know as Chartreuse. This lord founded the Order of Carthusian Monks to protect the recipe. They did that for over 100 years. And then, I don't know what prompted the change, but the year is 1737. They, they switched to commercial production. And it became more and more popular. And, and so, they definitely got into it. And, and so, to hear that they've decided to return and focus more on their studies, I think, you know, speaks to a shift in the sense that, you know, nothing should be more important than who put them there.

NK: You mentioned the Canadian products, the local ingredients you've been using. You're not going to give us the full recipe, I would imagine. But what do you want to share with us about what you've been able to, to source?

AB: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So, we, yeah, we are trying to maintain a little bit of secrecy ourselves because the, again, part of that legend is that, apparently, only two or three monks know the actual ingredients. They know the recipe, and they, each individual doesn't know the whole thing either. So, we, we would like to protect what we have as long as we can. [chuckling] So, what I will say is the original Chartreuse apparently has 130 botanicals. Now, we've created our recipe with just 25. So, I don't know if all 25 of those are correct. We might be completely out to lunch. But, you know, the resulting product is pretty darn close. And, and so, we, we got to have some fun with it in the sense that we, what we set out as a very top-level decision was we have to put ourselves in the shoes of a monk in 1605. [NK chuckles] You know, what would they have had access to? What would they have had as inspiration? And so, that drove us to seek out a lot of European varietals of, of spices and plants. And wherever we saw fit, we, we used Canadian sources for those. So, the one that I've been mentioning is pine needles. You know, Chartreuse has a bit of a piney character. And we decided to use pine for that. So, we're, we're hoping that, you know, especially with, like, making something so unique, you know, we, we put our own spin on it. And, and therefore, people start to think of our product, if not first, then in the same conversation as Chartreuse.

NK: Good to speak with you, Adam. Thank you.

AB: You're very welcome. Thank you.

CH: Adam Brierley is the master distiller at SFR Distillery in Ottawa. And that's where we reached him.

[lounge jazz]

Lima Airport

CH: Whether you're trying to get on a plane and fly away from Lima, Peru, or get off a plane that's just landed in Lima, Peru, there's no airport like Jorge Chavez International Airport! [scoff] Not the old Jorge Chavez International Airport -- the new one! A nearly $3 billion transport hub of the future, which will handle 30 million travellers a year -- and eventually, as many as 60 million! State-of-the-art runways! Gleaming bathrooms! Probably a Cinnabon! Jorge Chavez International Airport is expected to open to an excited public on March 30th -- and will be accessible via...well, actually, it won't be accessible! The highway to the airport has not been built. [music becomes dissonant and fades] The bridge over the river to the airport has not been built. There is a subway stop called "Airport"...but it won't be completed for three years. But! When it is completed! It will take you to the old airport, which won't be the airport anymore! As the head of Peru's airline industry trade association told Bloomberg, quote, "Having a subway station named ‘Airport’ where there won’t be an airport anymore — it’s just the most graphic example of our lack of planning as a nation." Unquote. And, I guess, so is the new airport. Which, to be clear, is necessary: Lima's current airport is overcapacity. But plans for the new one have mutated over seven years, seven different presidents, and general political instability. Which is how you wind up spending billions on an airport with only one way in right now: by car, over one of two temporary bridges, which are meant to be used only in disaster scenarios. Not this kind of disaster scenario. That's all the infrastructure there will be by the time the airport opens at the end of March. No…no subway. No highway. No permanent bridge. Just people in cars struggling with their baggage -- in a country that's clearly struggling with its baggage.

[chillhop]

Part 2: Guantanamo Bay Lawyers, Peacock Mantis Shrimp

Guantanamo Bay Lawyers

Guest: Lee Gelernt

CH: Guantanamo Bay is quickly becoming the centre of Donald Trump's immigration crackdown. Over the weekend, the first photos of a tent city being erected at the notorious military base emerged -- a tent city that could potentially house tens of thousands of migrants. So far, the Trump Administration says it has flown about three dozen people from Fort Bliss, Texas to the military prison on the base. Officials say they're “dangerous criminals" and “the worst of the worst.” But they won't say who they are, or the exact crimes they've been charged with. So, on Friday, more than a dozen immigration lawyers and human rights groups signed a letter demanding immediate access to the people detained. Lee Gelernt is the deputy director of the ACLU Immigrants' Rights Project -- and one of the signatories to the letter. We reached him in New York.

NK: Lee, at this stage, do you have any information about who these migrants who are being detained at Guantanamo Bay are?

LEE GELERNT: We are hearing that they are primarily, if not exclusively, Venezuelans. The government is claiming that they are all serious criminals. We will not trust that information and will try to verify it. But at this point, you know, we have very little information. We are hearing some, from some family members who say that their, their brother or someone along those lines has been removed to Gitmo. We don't think they have any access to the outside world or lawyers. And so, that is the first step. We absolutely need access to them.

NK: In terms of are they, are they all male? Do you know age range, or anything like that?

LG: We think that they're all male. We don't know the age range, but we think they're all male. The government has posted pictures of them. Reporters have posted pictures of people. They look to be all male, you know, in their 20s, maybe 30s, but we just don't know. That's one of the problems, is that Guantanamo has always been essentially a black hole. And now, they are, for the first time ever in U.S. history, taking immigrants from U.S. soil and shipping them there to Guantanamo.

NK: Have any of these people been charged with any crimes, or convicted of any crimes, in the United States, as far as you can tell right now?

LG: We just don't know any information about whether they have criminal histories or not. I mean, that's really the problem. And that's why the first step is to get access to the people there.

NK: As you know, the administration accuses these men of human trafficking and other crimes, even more serious crimes, and allege that they were in the United States illegally. There will be listeners who hear what the administration is saying, and hear about these, these men, who we believe mostly to be men, yes. The people who will hear these allegations, and not hear them as allegations, but hear them as, as a statement of fact, and will say, if these are criminals, they need to be removed from this country to keep Americans safe. What do you say to listeners who are taking that message from this?

LG: Well, so, let me, let me unpack the sort of your question. Because I think there were a couple of things in there. The first thing is, I would urge your listeners not to take at face value the Trump administration's characterization of these people. We don't know yet and who they are. And in the past, the Trump administration has repeatedly tried to characterize people as serious criminals or gang members. And when we investigated, we found out that those characterizations were wholly false. So, I really, really would urge people not to assume that these characterizations are necessarily true. The other thing is that if they are in the country and have lost their deportation hearings, it may be that they ultimately can be removed. But being removed to their home country is a very different thing than being sent to the notorious Guantanamo prison.

NK: As you, as you likely know, U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem was the first member of the administration to visit Guantanamo Bay since they began this, this initiative. She spoke to CNN's Dana Bash yesterday, and was specifically asked how long people might be held there. Here's a bit of how she responded.

SOUNDCLIP

KRISTI NOEM: My goal is that people are not in these facilities for weeks and months. My goal is that there's a short-term stay. They're able to go incarcerate them, take them, follow the process, and get them back to their country.

DANA BASH: That's your goal.

KN: Yes.

DB: But you're not ruling out that they could be there for weeks?

KN: I'm not. I'm not going to rule that out because we are going to continue to make sure that we're talking with every single country. But it's not an option for us to leave people here illegally anymore. American citizens have been put behind people who have chosen to come and break our laws. And that's not going to happen anymore.

NK: What would you say to Secretary Noem?

LG: Well, again, we need more information. We have no idea how long people have already been there, or how long they will be there. And so, that's why we need access. And we need to make sure people, we don't think people should be sent there at all, and that the government has authority to send them there at all, much less for weeks or potentially months. So, we're going to have to get access to see what these men want, whether they want attorneys, and what claims they have. But the idea that we can just ship people off to Guantanamo, even if it's for a short amount of time, is absolutely wrong. It's very dangerous if we start letting the government take people off U.S. soil and send them to Guantanamo.

NK: These men were not taken to, to the tents, the tent city, really, that has emerged and could likely scale up. They were taken to the existing military prison. Remind our listeners what you know about the conditions there.

LG: So, you know, again, we haven't seen the conditions that these particular detainees are in. But the base has two sides. And one has been traditionally for migrants interdicted on the high seas, people who'd never reached U.S. soil. And that has a little more freedom. The conditions there are not good. But the other side is where former enemy combatants, alleged enemy combatants, after 9/11 were held. And that's a serious maximum security military prison. And that's where we understand that these people are. But again, until we can get there and see what's going on, we don't know the precise conditions. But we, I think, can assume, based on the history of Guantanamo, that the conditions are not good. And that they have no access to the outside world.

NK: Is there concern that as that tent city scales up, as, as this kind of action by this administration scales up, that people who are not suspected of being involved in violent criminal activity could also be swept up in this and sent to Guantanamo?

LG: I think absolutely. I mean, for one thing, we have no idea whether the men who have been initially sent there are criminals or gang members. And so, you know, the Trump administration has just asked us to take their word. But I don't, I have not heard them rule out the possibility of, of other people being sent there. And so, I think once they try and get a foothold into Guantanamo, and we don't stop them, then I'm not sure that, you know, they're not going to try and send lots of people there.

NK: If you don't get a response to this letter, or if you don't get the access to the people who've been detained, what are the steps you'll take after that?

LG: Well, so, there are a variety of steps. And obviously, the ACLU goes to court quite often. And so, you know, that will be on the table as well.

NK: Lee, I appreciate your time, as always. Thank you.

LG: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Lee Gelernt is the deputy director of the ACLU Immigrants' Rights Project. He’s in New York City.

[ambient instrumental]

AFN Compensation

CH: Starting next month, hundreds of thousands of First Nations children will finally be compensated for decades of discrimination. In 2019, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ordered Ottawa to pay $40,000 dollars to each child inappropriately removed from their homes, as well as their parents and grandparents. The $23 billion settlement from the federal government is the largest ever in Canada, and will apply to people living under the First Nations child welfare system from 1991 to 2022. It's an acknowledgment of decades of discriminatory underfunding. Today, at a press conference in Winnipeg announcing the start of the class action payments, one First Nations leader was also focused on the future. A $47.8 billion proposal to reform the on-reserve child welfare system is still up in the air. In October, chiefs voted to renegotiate; many said it didn't go far enough to end discrimination, and that First Nations weren't properly consulted. Now, the federal government says it will not negotiate nationally on a new deal. Here's Minegoziibe Anishinabe Chief Derek Nepinak.

SOUNDCLIP

DEREK NEPINAK: This is a very big moment in our, in our process. But I want to say that this is not the final solution. I want to add that although compensation is rolling out to individuals in the process, we also have to turn our mind to long-term reform of the First Nations CFS system. I'm speaking specifically to a final settlement agreement that was offered for the chiefs to consider in October of 2024. I still believe today sitting here that it is a monumental failure on the part of us as chiefs to push the final settlement agreement across the finish line, and to have the rollout of that final settlement agreement happening right now in real time. I believe that we still have a lot of work to do in long-term reform. I believe that communities that voted in favour of this settlement agreement, including our community, the Minegoziibe Anishinabe, should have an opt-in provision, or an opt-in opportunity into the final settlement agreement, despite the fact that there was a large group of chiefs who voted against it. I believe that the voting period was infiltrated, let's say, by lobby groups, lobby groups and organizations that support the status quo of top-down child and family services that are run by provincial mandates, and even funded by provincial mandates to assert the conversation, and to ensure that the settlement agreement failed. I can speak to this as a chief of my community, and that's what I observed, and that's what I believe. I believe that the conversation has to continue. And there has to be room for communities to opt-in to the final settlement agreement to really put, I think, some of the, some of the finishing touches on this process for the benefit of the children and families back home. Some of our communities are ready. And I can say the iMinegoziibe Anishinabe are ready to take responsibility and to implement the types of services for children and families that are long overdue.

CH: That was Minegoziibe Anishinabe Chief Derek Nepinak speaking at an AFN press conference in Winnipeg today.

Mini-Update: Saudi Prisoner Released

CH: In 2021, Salma al-Shehab travelled to Saudi Arabia for a family vacation. But she didn't go home: the mother of two was sentenced to 34 years in prison for using social media to, quote, "disturb public order and destabilize the security and stability of the state." Unquote. Now, four years later, her family is celebrating her release. But as she reunites with them, there are still concerns about her future. Saudi authorities have yet to confirm whether she’ll face a travel ban or other restrictions. In 2022, we spoke with Allison McManus, director of research with the Freedom Initiative, a non-profit that advocates for wrongfully detained prisoners in the Middle East and North Africa. Here’s what she told guest host Susan Bonner.

SOUNDCLIP

ALLISON MCMANUS: The message that is being sent is that while many Saudis may seek improvements in the country's human rights record, if they call for those publicly, they'll be punished. While the leadership of the country is able to promote these to the wider world, and really to take credit for them. It's a very harsh message to any who may even want to simply tweet that they would like to see greater protection of human rights, or release of political prisoners.

SUSAN BONNER: Her initial sentence was for just six years. How surprising is it to see it up to 34 years on appeal?

AM: Well, Susan, I didn't think that there was much that we could be shocked by when it comes to Saudi Arabia's abysmal human rights record. But I was really shocked. And I think my colleagues were all really shocked as well that the sentence was increased so harshly. What we're really concerned about now is since we've been public about Salma's sentence, we've started to hear rumours of others who have had their sentences increased upon appeal as well. We're really frightened that this might be the beginning of a new trend, particularly after we saw President Biden travel to Jeddah. We're seeing new golf tournaments, and a lot of praise really piled on the current Saudi leadership that this may be sending a sort of signal, a sort of green light, that human rights violations might be tolerated. Even the murder of a journalist was tolerated. So, why not hefty sentences for human rights defenders or even women phD students?

CH: Allison McManus of the Freedom Initiative, speaking to guest host Susan Bonner in 2022.

[post rock]

Peacock Mantis Shrimp

Guest: Nicolas Alderete

CH: The peacock mantis shrimp ranges from about five to 18 centimetres long. But don't assume you'll be able to just grab one and plunge it into some seafood sauce -- because it can punch so hard, it can break aquarium glass, and even kill prey with a single blow. Scientists believed it was able to do that because of a protection mechanism in the creature's fists -- or dactyl clubs. But Nicolas Alderete believes otherwise. He's the co-author of a study published in the journal, Science. We reached him in Gaithersburg, Maryland.

NK: Nicholas, these are certainly beautiful creatures. Powerful, too, it looks like. Have you ever seen one in actual battle? What does that look like?

NICOLA ALDERETE: Well, I have not seen one in actual battle. There's tonnes of videos out there where you can go and look and see those, these creatures fighting, destroying shells, or even breaking glass. But I can tell you that having them in the lab, I can tell you that they're quite feisty. [NK chuckles] And, actually, we had a bunch of them. We have them separate from each other. And they actually, they, they, it's like they want to fight. [NK chuckles] Even though they're separate from each other, once they would engage, visually engage with the other animals, they would want to fight them, yeah.

NK: They're just ready to fight at all times?

NA: Yeah.

NK: They're at an 11, always.

AB: Yeah, they're quite feisty, actually. Yeah.

NK: [chuckle] Why? Why do you think that is? Why are they ready to punch so hard? And when they do, punch so hard?

NA: They're mighty predators. So, I think that's just their nature.

NK: It's also the speed.

NA: I guess that's just the way that they are, yeah. [chuckle]

NK: Yeah, just the way they are. They were born that way.

NA: Exactly.

NK: What about the speed of the blows? That's a factor here.

NA: Absolutely. So, people have done, have done previous studies on these animals. And they actually compare, the acceleration of the strike is actually similar to that of a 22 caliber bullet. And, actually, the strike of the shrimp can be up to 1,000 times its own weight. So, yeah, I would say they're pretty mighty.

NK: I would say yeah, to say the least. And tell me how, how you conducted this research?

NA: So, I would say that one of the unique characteristics of this research is that we provided experimental validation of a hypothesis that was published 10 years ago on these phononic shielding mechanisms within the shrimp.

NK: Can you describe what a phononic shielding mechanism is?

NA: For sure. So, when we're talking about phononics, I think a good way for anyone to understand it is that phononic comes from the Greek word phono, which is related to sound. And sound is basically a wave propagating in air. But in our case, we're going to be dealing with the propagation of elastic waves. So, a phononic shielding mechanism would be a shield against stress waves traveling through a material.

NK: And so, ultimately, how are these peacock mantis shrimp able to deliver those blows, but also withstand the power of delivering it?

NA: Right. So, you know that once you, if you ever punch a wall or punch someone, you're going to find that also, you also get hurt, right? So, in order to deliver mighty blows, you also have to be able to withstand them. And one of the ways that we found is that the structure of the dactyl club in the mantis shrimp, due to the way it is built, due to the architecture inside the club, it's able to filter high-frequency waves, which might be detrimental to its own structure, to its body function. It's called a band gap -- one of the mechanisms that we uncovered. And a band gap is basically a frequency range on which waves cannot propagate. So, it acts definitely as a shield or as a filter mechanism. Maybe the word filter is a better way to describe it.

NK: And then, that prevents any tissue damage in the midst of all that fighting?

NA: Yeah. So, not only it's a filtering frequency, but it filters very specific kinds of waves, which are called transverse waves, or shear waves. You can think of it as sort of a design choice in the structure that it's filtering waves that are detrimental to its tissue, to its, potentially to its nervous system, and to all kinds of systems within the, the club. Because you got to remember that the mantis shrimp is going to, is going to exert several punches with one club, and it's only going to renew it in its next molting cycle. So, it's got to be able to withstand repeated loading.

NK: And you mentioned you saw how feisty they are in your, in your lab. Just they're ready to fight. You didn't see them actually in the water. But you also had samples of dead shrimp sent to your lab. And what did you do with those to reach these results?

NA: Right. We did not do our experiments on actual live mantis shrimp. We actually had to carefully extract these appendages, you know, the limbs that carry this, the dactyl club. Basically, the, the smashing limb. What we did with that is we, we cut it in a specific way to expose the surface of the dactyl club. And then, we used lasers to excite surface waves that would travel on the surface of this material. And we would pick up these waves that are traveling with another laser. And that way, we can study how these waves are propagating through the structure.

NK: We've done stories about octopuses, and the punching octopuses in particular. And I wondered, I just keep imagining these shrimp and those octopuses coming face-to-face.

NA: It will be, yeah, that'll be a show for the ages. [NK chuckles] Yeah, I don't know. That'll be interesting. I think the octopus is bigger and has more limbs. So, yeah, I don't know.

NK: It's at an advantage.

NA: It doesn't carry such a powerful punch.

NK: Okay. You know, for our listeners who haven't seen what they look like, the peacock mantis shrimp, can you describe their size and shape?

NA: Yeah. So, they're, they're not that big, actually. They're kind of like 10 to 18 centimetres long. And it's quite colourful. But what I can say is that if you've seen a lobster, the body of the shrimp is similar to that of a lobster. They're within the same general family. So, yeah, I would say that's the best I can do with words.

NK: Understood. Understood. And if, if people come across them in the water, if they came in the path of a peacock mantis shrimp, what would you recommend they do?

NA: I would try to recommend them not to handle them. [NK chuckles] So, they're actually, they're nicknamed the thumb splitter. Because, actually, if you mishandle them, you're going to know .you're going to find out.

NK: [chuckles] Did you have that experience? It sounds like your lab might have.

NA: No, no, I actually didn't. After just seeing how feisty they were, I was like, okay, let's be very careful with these, with these creatures.

NK: Smart. Nicholas, thank you. I appreciate your time.

NA: Oh, for sure. Thank you so much.

CH: Nicolas Alderete is a co-author of a new study on the tough blows of the peacock mantis shrimp. He’s in Gaithersburg, Maryland.

[ambient instrumental]

Part 3: Marie-Joseph Angélique Stamp, Long-Nosed Bat DNA

Marie-Joseph Angélique Stamp

Guest: Dorothy Williams

CH: You may not have heard her name. But there’s a good chance you’ll get to know her face. Marie-Joseph Angélique was an enslaved Black woman who was brought to Montreal in the early 1700s. Back then, slavery was legal in the French and British colonies that would become Quebec, Ontario, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and New Brunswick. It’s believed that she tried to escape. And in 1734, she was arrested, charged with arson, and hanged, after a fire destroyed dozens of buildings in old Montreal. Her story has become a symbol of Black resistance in Canada. And now, her portrait can be found on a newly released Canada Post Black History Month stamp. Dorothy Williams is a historian who specializes in Black Canadian History. We reached her in Montreal.

NK: Dorothy, I know you've just taken a look at the stamp. I was just looking at it as well. What did you feel as you, as you looked at it?

DOROTHY WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, [chuckling] it's a nice, clean version of what she would have looked like, I think. At the time, my first reaction was, wow, that's a really well-dressed slave. [both laugh]

NK: Well, it's very, it's striking is one word that comes to mind.

DW: It's very striking. It's very striking.

NK: Regal, regal and defiant. But also, you know, so, so just describe it for our listeners who haven't seen it. It's a, it's an illustration of what Marie-Joseph Angélique is believed to have looked like. The city of Montreal, an outline of it, you know, the sort of a skyline is visible, but its, its fiery red. Do you think what that image evokes captures the kind of person she was known to be?

DW: Well, certainly from the transcripts that we have of her, and how people felt about her, she was quick to say what was on her mind. Certainly did not like the idea of being an enslaved woman. She stood out because she was so resistant, and spoke back, and threatened people's lives, including that she was going to burn them.

NK: And is that the main reason why, you know, according to what the records show, why she was suspected of setting this fire?

DW: I think almost immediately, once the fire started. Because, again, this was not the first time that Montreal has had a fire. But I think that this particular one, people associated with her because she had just been brought back about four months earlier from having run away. And was very angry at the idea that she was going to be resold. So, she was upset. And it showed in the way that she reacted to the woman that was her enslaver.

NK: The trial records reveal a lot of information on many fronts, including her proclamations of innocence. What was she saying? And what was the response?

DW: Well, I mean, she was trying to convince them that she didn't do it. And, of course, the witnesses coming forward, they didn't, nobody saw her lit the fire. But what they did is they saw her at different times just before, two weeks, a month before, when she was threatening to burn her, her mistress. When she was threatening to kill them. She became an automatic, they looked for her. They're looking for a reason to blame somebody. And she was the perfect foil right there.

NK: The trial records also give us a sense of what French Canadians thought about enslaved Black people at the time. What do they reveal?

DW: So, it was a, really, a small community. Everybody knew each other. And so, the feelings that Madame de Francheville had, and that she shared with other people in, along the street. You know, the neighbours and also sort of just, it snowballed because everybody knew and supported her contention that if there had been somebody to start the fire, then for sure it was Marie-Joseph Angélique. Because she was most likely the most defiant slave. And she had threatened them. So, we learn about the French Canadian thinking at that time. How they thought of slavery, how they thought about slaves, it's really, that's what's so wonderful about, I guess, asking me is as a historian, [chuckling] that's what's so wonderful about this, I guess, the Marie-Joseph Angélique stamp, and, and the books that have come out about her is that we begin to have a glimpse of slavery in Quebec that we just don't get from the lives of other slaves. And I think that's going to be one of the reasons why the trial of Marie-Joseph Angélique, and her story will probably never die.

NK: Yet, I bet, and you will know this better than I, that Marie-Joseph Angélique, just even that name, let alone the story, will be coming as a surprise to many people listening wherever, whether they're listening in Canada or elsewhere, that we have an audience, that, that this is maybe the first time they're hearing about her or her story. So, what do you hope this stamp, and the knowledge of her story, will teach people?

DW: Well, I hope it breaks that whole thinking in our mind that Canada never had slavery. That somehow, we were better than the United States. Slavery was very akin to what, to how slaves were treated, bought, sold, and traded in New York. And in the northern part of the United States. And so, it thrived here. We had a thriving slave economy for a period of time in New France that nobody's aware of, very few people are aware of. And we don't teach it in school, of course. What we do teach is that we had this Underground Railroad, right? And by the time these African-Americans, these escaped slaves, came into Canada, they were free. And so, we pat ourselves on the back and say, hey, well, we didn't have slavery. Yeah, we didn't have slavery by then because slavery had ended in the 1830s. So, in the 1850s, when these Americans came up, the ex-slaves ran, the fugitives came into Canada, it's quite true, yes, they were free in Canada. There was no slavery. But it forgets the narrative actually begins 200 years earlier. Marie-Joseph Angélique is in the middle, believe it or not. This, this fire is 1734, right? Slavery ended in 1834. And our first slave, we have records as early as 1625. So, she's right, almost right, in the middle of the slave narrative in Canada. And I think because of that transcript from that trial, we're always going to have the richness of this, this person, this event. And, you know, in Canada's narrative at that period of time, pre-Emancipation in 1834.

NK: Dorothy, I'm very glad we could speak. Thank you.

DW: Thank you.

CH: Dorothy Williams is a historian. She’s in Montreal.

[instrumental]]

Sailboat Carving

CH: Shannon and Steve McPhail are planning to sail around the world. And as soon as their youngest daughter graduates from high school next year, the couple from Hazelton, B.C. will set sail. And for years, they were on the hunt for a boat to take them on this epic journey. Then, Mr. McPhail finally found his dream boat in Mexico. He made the trip down and started fixing it up -- at which point he discovered a very beautiful, very distinct carving on the vessel. As it turns out, world-renowned artist and Order of Canada recipient Roy Henry Vickers made the carving decades ago. But the story doesn't end there. Because Mr. Vickers happens to be the McPhails' friend and neighbour. Steve McPhail and Roy Henry Vickers told the CBC all about the meant-to-be boat.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE MCPHAIL: I just happened to be staring at it and admiring it, and kind of noticed the signature. And Roy definitely has, you know, a unique signature. And I just took a closer look, and I couldn't believe my eyes -- Roy Vickers. And, yeah, instantly, I messaged Roy and Shannon. And, yeah, it just blew my mind that I was just hanging out with Roy over Christmas' holidays, and chatting about boats. And, lo and behold, there, [chuckling] there's one of his artwork.

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Oh, my goodness! First of all, it was like a distant memory. And I had to work at coming to realize what it was on a sailboat. And gradually, it came through. I carved that for a friend of mine who is doing exactly what Steve and Shannon are going to do, and going to sail around the world. Then, he was a fellow fireman in the Saanich Fire Department in Victoria, and he decided he was getting the sailboat and going to sail around the world. And he stopped into Tofino, and I was there with my gallery. And he came in to visit me, and asked me the second day he was there if I would carve a piece for the door on his sailboat? And so, I went to work, and carved it. And it's, it's almost like, it's so fitting that here again, this boat is going to go around the world. And Jim insisted that that carving stay with the boat. And so, there it was. And it just, it all came together. And makes me wish I could just pull up and jump on the boat and go with them.

CH: That was Steve McPhail and Roy Henry Vickers speaking with Carolina de Ryk, host of Daybreak North.

[winding instrumental]

CDN Cherry Blossom

CH: It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. Or -- more precisely -- it is a maraschino cherry floating in sticky sweet syrup, encased in chocolate, and housed in a bright yellow cube emblazoned with the words "Lowney's Cherry Blossoms" in red and blue. For close to 150 years, they were a cult classic of Canadian candy -- until last month, when Hershey's abruptly announced it was shutting down production, leaving aficionados with a Cherry Blossom-shaped hole in their hearts. But now, Blossom-heads, [chuckling] that’s what we call them, are turning to a Quebec company that has created its own spin on the defunct candy. With a few crucial twists, starting with the fruit at its centre. Candy maker Jean-François Veilleux is the man behind it all.

SOUNDCLIP

JEAN-ÇOIS VEILLEUX: At first, four years ago, we created an alternative for the maraschino cherry. So, we create the maraschino cranberry using it in the cocktail industry. So, we started with this, and it was, it was really easy to step up with the chocolate treat. So, the idea came two years ago when we created the Berry Blossom.

JULIA CARON: How did that idea come about? Who had the strike of, the stroke of genius?

JCV: Actually, we were the two co-founders of the company. So, we really, our parents enjoyed this treat so much, particularly my mother. She was in love with the Cherry Blossom. It was always, it was a special treat that she offers for herself after every big moment in her life. And she always had a Cherry Blossom hiding somewhere. So, that's. And we, we love to, the fact that it was Canadian.

JC: Yes.

JCV: It's something that particularly Quebec and Canada loves. So, we think it's, it's a good alternative to use a local fruit instead of a cherry, so.

JC: And I have to say, for anyone who's affectionate towards the Cherry Blossom, the box format, it's the same size box almost. It's just not yellow. And, and it's made in Quebec. And it has that little logo, the yellow Q, that says "Aliments du Quebec".

JCV: So, it gives you the actual proof that it's locally grown and processed here in Quebec City.

JC: Of course, people were flocking to the stores to see if they could get Cherry Blossoms before they're completely discontinued, and you can't find them anywhere. Why do you think so many Quebeckers are choosing Berry Blossoms over other potential alternatives to that treat?

JCV: I think that people, people always been sensitive with local products. But with the actual, with the, the news in the last week and two with the tariffs and everything. So, I think people are really open to give a chance to local product.

CH: Jean-François Veilleux is the owner of the Nutra Fruit company. He spoke to the CBC's Julia Caron this morning on Quebec AM.

[folk]

Long-Nosed Bat DNA

Guest: Angie McIntire

CH: If you saw an Arizona resident out dabbing their hummingbird feeder with a cotton swab, you might be confused. You also might pull the curtains and swear not to go to their barbecue that night, even though you've already made the Waldorf salad. But you should know that your neighbour is swabbing that feeder for a very good reason. They're contributing to a citizen science project. With the help of those samples, and the "Species from Feces” lab at Northern Arizona University, there's been a discovery. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and Bat Conservation International, recently announced that the presence of endangered Mexican long-nosed bats has been confirmed in southeastern Arizona. Angie McIntire is the statewide bat specialist with the Arizona Game and Fish Department. We reached her in the Phoenix area.

NK: Angie, your Instagram handle is Bat Biologist 41. So, that leads me to believe you're passionate about bats and bat conservation. Is a moment like this one, a discovery like this, your Super Bowl?

ANGIE MCINTIRE: Well, it's pretty close, yeah. [NK chuckles] The confirmation of this species in the state is significant because it utilized citizen scientists, and a really cutting edge way of determining the species presence. So, it's not even something that was possible when I first began working with bats over 20 years ago.

NK: And there was always the sense that it was probably in Arizona, this species. But, but it wasn't, you know, an easy thing to prove. You couldn't just go out at night, look up, and see what was out there.

AM: That's right. On any given night, there's so many bats flying around in our skies. But, you know, if everyone thinks about how often they actually see, you know, any specific bat, it's probably relatively rare. And certainly for us scientists, to capture a bat, you know, requires quite a bit of effort. And to capture a specific species of bat is, is even harder.

NK: And then, differentiating between the lesser long-nosed bat, differentiating the Mexican long-nosed from the lesser long-nosed, just so our listeners can, can try to imagine the difference, it's, it's difficult, as I understand it, to try to tell the difference. What makes it difficult?

AM: They're very similar in appearance. And they're very similar in the, in the sounds that they make -- their echolocations. So, you know, one of the tools that we use is through acoustic recorders to determine species. But even with that, for this species, it would be difficult. And then, the species is just so similar in appearance. You have to take measurements in order, once they're in the hand. One of them is, the Mexican long-nosed bat is a bit larger. But, as you can imagine, that's not something that would be easy without handling, you know, quite a few and knowing you've got a larger bat.

NK: And then, people there in Arizona start swabbing hummingbird feeders and agave plants for saliva.

AM: That's correct. The three nectar bats that we have in Arizona regularly go to hummingbird feeders in the various parts of the southern portion of our state. And how people know that a bat is visiting their hummingbird feeder is in the morning, the nectar will be completely drained. And so, these citizen scientists were basically swabbing with a specialized Q-Tip-type device for those bits of DNA that are left behind in the saliva.

NK: Were people excited to take on this challenge?

AM: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know, citizen scientists are great. I mean, people just want to help. You know, people want to help discover things. They want to help provide observations. You know, we get a lot of requests to just help do something good for bats, you know, as well as other wildlife.

NK: And what happened with those samples? Where do they go, and what did they reveal?

AM: The samples that were collected then went to a lab called Species from Feces in the northern part of Arizona, and out of NAU -- Northern Arizona University. And they analyzed them. They were able to determine that they can differentiate the DNA from each of the three nectar bats. And so, there wasn't confusion, you know, that maybe it was one of the other nectar bats. They actually had the signature, the DNA signature, from each of the three nectar bat species.

NK: And then, that, that signature also revealed information about the trips these Mexican long-nosed bats are taking.

AM: Right. I mean, before this, we, we have to just kind of imagine, you know, bats don't recognize state boundaries. So, we know that they were very close by in New Mexico, our neighbouring state, New Mexico. And so, it just would stand to reason that, that they were probably coming into Arizona. And the fact that they looked so much like the other long-nosed bat, or the other, the lesser long-nosed bat species. You know, it's, sometimes we can recognize that bat from our other nectar bat through photographs coming to hummingbird feeders. But you really, because you really have to have them in the hand, you know, we had to just kind of imagine what was likely taking place without knowing for sure.

NK: And now that you know, as you imagine, I mean, this is, they're traveling long distances for food.

AM: Yeah. And this species is a, is capable of, of pretty significant flight distances. It's really hard to figure those things out with bats. But, you know, technology is allowing us to find out more and more, which is really exciting. What we don't know is, is this part of just kind of the course of an evening's flight for this bat, and they're visiting these hummingbird feeders? Or is something going on in the environment where they need to travel farther? So, those are questions that would be interesting to explore in the future.

NK: Are they your favourite now? Do you have a favourite of the 29 bat species in Arizona? Or is it impossible to choose?

AM: It's impossible, I guess, because our bats are just so fascinating. And I could be, you know, equally excited about just about any of the 29. I really like our largest species of bat, the greater Western mastiff bat. But certainly, these nectar bats, they have big eyes, and they have a little leaf on their long nose. So, they're just, they're super cute.

NK: [chuckling] I really want to like them as much as you do. I'm not there yet, Angie. [AM chuckles] But, but you are helping me in my journey.

AM: Well, come to Arizona. [both chuckle].

NK: Okay, deal. Angie, thanks for this.

AM: Absolutely. Thank you.

CH: Angie McIntire is the statewide bat specialist with Arizona's Game and Fish Department. She's in the Phoenix area.

[indie rock]

Fake Maud Lewis Paintings

CH: The origins of two paintings owned by an Ontario man have turned out to be...clear as Maud. For years Edward Ross has proudly displayed what he believed to be two original paintings by the Nova Scotia folk artist Maud Lewis. And he'd relish telling visitors about the day he and his then-wife bought them several decades ago, at Ms. Lewis's home, directly from her husband, Everett. But recently Mr. Ross learned there was more to the story.

SOUNDCLIP

EDWARD ROSS: We went up the valley and came back. My sister was with me too, at the time, so the three of us stopped in Marshalltown. And knocked on the door. Everett came to the door, and we said, we heard that Maud has some paintings. We'd, I'd like to buy a couple of while we're in Nova Scotia. So, he said, yeah, sure, come on in. And we went into this little, it's just the tiniest little house I've ever been in. But it was really different. It was decorated all up very colourful. And there was a place near the window of the front of the house where I presume that Maud did her painting. And there were paint pots, and things like that, and brushes. And Everett said that Maud was in the hospital. So, she wasn't there. But he said, I can sell you a couple of Maud's paintings. And we said, that would be great. He said, I'll be right back. So, he went out the door, went somewhere in the back there. There were some sheds in the back. So, I presume that's where he went. And he came back a few minutes later, and sure enough, he had two paintings. And one of them was of three cats, three black cats. And two, the other one was of two oxen, and it was signed Maud Lewis. I said, how much would you like for the two paintings? And he said, $20 apiece. So I said, hey, that's great. So, I gave him $40. So, we jumped into the car, and I pulled out onto the highway. And as I looked in the rear mirror, I could see Everett standing there out near the road waving to us. It just gave me the impression that he was saying so long sucker, but I didn't think that that would be really what he was saying, [chuckle] until I have found out recently that, I guess, [chuckling] he was really, really what he was mostly to me. Because my second wife, she was looking at the two paintings that we have on the wall in our living room. And she said, you know, I have a funny feeling that these aren't Maud Lewis paintings. But I said, no, no. I said, they're Maud Lewis's. She said, I don't, I don't think so. And I said, why? She says, because what I've seen from looking at Maud Lewis's paintings, she signed on the righthand side. These are signed on the left. And I said, well, they are signed on the left. So I, I thought about it for a while, and then I, I started Googling them, trying to find somebody that would be a expert on Maud Lewis's folk painting. And I found a gentleman in Wolfville. I sent pictures to him of the two paintings, and he gave me the bad, sad news that, no, they are Everett's paintings. Everett copied her painting.

CH: Edward Ross is a Nova Scotian who now lives in rural Ontario. He told the story of his two Everett Lewis paintings to CBC Nova Scotia's Richard Woodbury.

The AIH Transcript For February 10, 2025

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