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The AIH Transcript for December 12, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: A hero's farewell. Syrians fill the streets of their capital to honor the activist Mazen Al-Hamada. He died before he could see the fall of the regime that tortured him. But his life has inspired countless others.

CH: Powerplay. Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Andrew Furey says a new agreement on the Churchill Falls hydroelectric project isn't just good for his province. It's good for the whole country.

NK: Clearing the air about clearing the areas. The mayor of Barrie, Ontario, tells us why he is standing behind Premier Doug Ford's new plan to dismantle homeless encampments.

CH: No reservations. An Abbotsford farmer hoping to address social anxiety and division in his community, sends out an open invitation to a potluck.

NK: Way off leash. A fugitive dog in New Orleans has eluded nets and tranquilizer darts and also endeared himself to the world. We'll hear from a woman in dogged pursuit of the pup known as Scrim.

CH: And stool of thought. A researcher who studies ancient fecal matter has just published a paper on what she found in a centuries old Belgian latrine, and you'll be astounded by her bold discovery. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that's the life of the potty.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Mazen Al-Hamada Obit., Churchill Falls Deal, Scrim On The Loose

Mazen Al-Hamada Obit.

Guest: Sara Afshar

SOUNDCLIP

Sound of Syrians marching and chanting for funeral procession.

CH: The sound of hundreds of Syrians marching through the streets of Damascus today in the funeral procession of Mazen Al-Hamada, the Syrian activist was detained and tortured alongside tens of thousands of other people after the 2011 Arab Spring uprising. When he was released in 2013, he fled to the Netherlands, where he started telling his horrifying story to the world. But in 2020, he decided to return to Syria in the hope of helping other prisoners. But he disappeared. And this week, after rebels took control of the country, his body was discovered at a hospital in Damascus and it was clear that he had endured even more torture. Sara Afshar is the director of the documentary: "Syria's Disappeared: The Case Against Assad", which featured Mazen Al-Hamada prominently. We reached her in London.

NK: Sara, to see the video of these crowds. Huge crowds in Damascus honoring Mazen. I mean, the fact that they could gather at all is extraordinary in and of itself. But when you watch those videos, heard the chants, heard them chanting his name in the streets, what did that mean to you?

SARA AFSHAR: Yeah, it just meant the world. Sorry, I got so emotional watching the videos. Well, I really I'm... It's a comfort to see people honoring him like that. They're giving him a funeral of a hero, which is what he is. He is a hero. And they're holding up photos of other disappeared people. They're heroes, too. You know, there's over 130 thousand people that were disappeared. And just hearing them as well, just chanting, not just his name, not just Mazen's name, but chants of the revolution. Which is, you know, Mazen was arrested originally because he was a peaceful protester. The revolution meant everything to him. So just hearing them chant, you know, won, won, won, the Syrian people won, I wish and hope that where he's resting in peace, he can see how they're honoring him and what he meant to them and to the fight and the campaign for the disappeared and to, you know, what will come, which is the campaign for justice.

NK: Mazen was living in the Netherlands back in 2016. That's when you were working on your documentary and you met him. What were your initial impressions? What was he like?

SA: When I met Mazen in 2016, we first just had a conversation, there were no cameras there or anything. And really, in the first 10 minutes of talking to him, I knew that I really wanted to interview him for the film, that I wanted him to be kind of the person giving the main survivor testimony. And that's because he was incredibly open more than anyone else that I had spoken to, because these were just such traumatic things to talk about. But he wanted to talk about everything and every aspect. And, you know, he was willing to make himself vulnerable. But the reason he wanted to do that was because he really wanted the whole world to hear his story, to hear about what was happening in these prisons because he wanted the world to act.

NK: Do you feel that the world heard him? Did he feel that the world was listening?

SA: I mean, that's the sad thing. Even though people who watched the film really responded to Mazen. He was you know, because he was so open, I think people felt very moved by his testimony. But I mean, we took the film around to policymakers. So did Mazen, we all campaigned with the film. And the world didn't react and worse than that, they wanted to normalize with the regime. There were governments who wanted to normalize with this regime, knowing full well what was going on inside, you know, and now people are saying, we're shocked about these details and that details. All of these things were out. So the world knew and the world did nothing. And I really think there needs to be a reckoning about that.

NK: He decided to go back to Syria in 2020. You know, as he weighed what you were saying there, that he felt people weren't listening. He was arrested as soon as he landed at the airport in Damascus. What did he tell you about why he went back?

SA: So I had no idea that he was going back. I knew that he was feeling really troubled. And, you know, as I said, I knew that he was really frustrated. And, of course, we can sit here and think, well, why would he do such a risky thing, why do something illogical like that? But the thing is, he really felt like he had done absolutely everything he could in the West to save all the people inside. And he felt that he got absolutely nowhere with that. And so then he thought, well, maybe I can negotiate with the regime and they can release the prisoners. And the regime, I think, said some things to him, you know, in that vein. For 18 months, he had suffered the most brutal torture and he saw all the people around him suffering and he saw people dying in front of him. And he had family in those prisons as well, in the one that he was at, his nephew was there. And he felt a great deal of guilt. I think that he was released and his nephew was still there. He didn't care about himself.

NK: I've heard you say that you have had no word about Mazen's, family members that you described in the prison.

SA: Those two, those two members no, I haven't heard what has happened to them. No.

NK: If you've, even if you've never met him, you know, you just take one look at a photograph or a short video, even of Mazen the pain, I mean, the depth of his eyes and the pain in them is certainly apparent. But you posted a picture. It was the last day of your documentary shoot with him. There's a hint of a smile on his face. And you wrote that it was a day about Syria's future and Mazen wanted to be a part of that. He also talked in your documentary about what the future might look like for the people who tortured him. And so many others, we'll play a little bit of that for you and our listeners now.

SOUNDCLIP

Mazen speaking in Arabic.

NK: He's so still as he says those words. And if I recall correctly, the tears are streaming from his eyes as he says, "God will hold them to account. The law will hold them to account. I will not rest until I take them to court and get justice". What do you think justice could look like for Mazen now?

SA: I think that this could be Mazen's legacy. He gave such vital testimony, such vital evidence, not just of the detention facility he was in, but of this hospital 601, where there were many, many bodies of detainees. And after everything that happened to him, he didn't talk about vengeance. He talked about justice in a court of law. And that's what many, many Syrians want. And I really think there is hope that there will be a process and that justice will be done one day, one day soon. I hope.

NK: Sara, I really appreciate your time today. I know it's not an easy conversation for you to keep having, but I appreciate it. Please take care.

SA: Thank you.

CH: Sara Afshar is the director of the documentary "Syria's Disappeared: The Case Against Assad". She's in London.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Churchill Falls Deal

Guest: Andrew Furey

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW FUREY: Today, after more than 50 years of a lopsided agreement that has been such a contentious point for Newfoundland and Labrador, we finally have a new deal on the table for Churchill Falls with Quebec. This is the 1969 contract, and we are endeavoring to rip it up. [cheers and applause]

CH: That was Andrew Furey, the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, speaking today after signing a new agreement with Quebec's premier over the future of the Churchill Falls hydroelectric project. And as you heard, ripping up the old one. For decades, that contract and Quebec's low fixed rate have been points of contention in Newfoundland and Labrador. After the deal was signed and electricity prices increased, then Premier Frank Moores called the project "the biggest giveaway in history". Under the New Deal, Quebec will continue to have access to clean energy for another 50 years, but at a new rate that could net Newfoundland and Labrador two hundred billion dollars in revenue. Hydro Quebec will also partner with the province to upgrade and expand the Churchill Falls site and build a new plant down the river at Gull Island. We reached Andrew Furey in St. John's.

NK: Premier Furey, our listeners heard a bit of your news conference where there was that moment you ripped up the old deal. What did that feel like today?

ANDREW FUREY: It's a historic and a great day for Newfoundland and Labrador, but it is also a good day for Quebec and I would argue a good day for Canada. It's righting the wrongs of the past while setting an incredible path forward for the future for citizens on both sides of the Quebec-Labrador border and also recognizes the ills of the past. It's good for all parties involved.

NK: Premier Legault also spoke today about how this, in his view, is a win win deal. And how, though, Quebec Hydro will be paying more than they were before it is still a really good deal for them, but one might wonder if it is so good for them how can you be sure it's good for you in your province as well? I wonder, you know, if Joey Smallwood, the premier who signed the initial deal, might have thought the same thing back in 1969?

AF: Sure. So there are lessons learned from the past, the 1969 deal for your listeners who probably are not aware, locked in the price at 0.2 cents, not two cents, 0.2 cent kilowatt hours in which that asset, our asset, the asset that lives in Labrador, sold power to Hydro Quebec. This new deal elevates that immediately to an effective six cents a kilowatt hour starting January 1st, 2025 and escalates over time based on market rates. In addition to that, there is no obligation for Hydro Quebec or Quebec to have renegotiated this deal today. 12 other premiers before me had tried to reopen this deal. The Supreme Court has opined on this. Multiple other courts have weighed in on this existing contract and there is no obligation for Quebec to do anything within the next 16 to 17 years. That said, it is a good deal for them as well, because striking a deal now allows for their timelines to continue with a significant amount of certainty with respect to electricity availability. So while nothing is entirely future proof, we are quite comfortable that this is a fair and good deal that reflects and potentially mitigates any potential risks in the future.

NK: Did it come down to the timing when you think about the history and all those who weren't able to strike this deal? Why do you think you two were able to?

AF: Well, I think it's a combination of timing and personalities. Premier Legault and I have had a good working relationship over the last four years. While this may seem like it is a surprise today to some, we have been working on this for four years.

NK: What was that first conversation like? Who picked up the phone first and what did you say?

AF: Yeah, so the first conversation we had, which was strategic on my behalf and my first trip as Premier, despite the challenges of the Covid-19 pandemic, was to Montreal to meet with Premier Legault to discuss potential cooperation, potential renegotiation, and to also air the grievances of the past with him so that he could have a full understanding of the cultural and economic impacts of the existing agreement in Newfoundland and Labrador. He subsequently came to Newfoundland and Labrador and recognized that this was indeed a bad deal. And from there we think we got a great deal here for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We have in the next 17 years; we have the option of getting almost zero revenue. But this deal unlocks 17 billion dollars between now and 2041 for the people in Newfoundland and Labrador.

NK: And we should let our listeners know if they don't, the annual budget in your province is about 10 billion dollars a year. [AF: That's correct]. So what will this new money mean?

AF: As we move forward, we will be taking a responsible approach and be looking towards investing in what we have here as a future fund where we take proceeds and revenue streams from our nonrenewable resources and try to put it away for the, for future generations. We would also be looking to pay off debt and of course, to give back to the people. And that's the most important thing. We can be using this money to build new hospitals, build new roads, hire more doctors and teachers. And it truly changes everything for the people in Newfoundland and Labrador.

NK: They'll hold you to those spending promises, I'm sure Premier. You also talked about the possibility of a future development at the site at Gull Island. A lot of planning and preparation, as I understand it, has already been done there. And the deal has the support of the Inuit Nation, including its grand chief who was at the news conference today as well. What role did the Nation play in your negotiations?

AF: So we've had a great relationship with the Inuit Nation over the last couple of years. They had the incredible foresight and intelligence to negotiate their rights on the Churchill River in the New Dawn Agreement and the Upper Churchill redress. We have committed to fully respecting those agreements in every sense of the spirit and writing of the agreements. In addition, though, there are other opportunities to work with them and Indigenous communities for potential benefits and other development projects. So we've committed to continue to have ongoing discussions going forward.

NK: It still has to be voted on, of course, during a special session in the legislature next year. But are you planning on celebrating tonight?

AF: I am indeed. I hope everyone across Newfoundland and Labrador is celebrating tonight. It is hard to understate the cultural significance of this deal in the social fabric of Newfoundland and Labrador. It's a source of debate in hockey rinks and pubs, and card games and dart games all across our beautiful province. And today it will fully change to that narrative and create a hopeful space for our people for generations to come.

NK: Premier, thank you for your time.

AF: Thanks very much.

CH: Andrew Furey is the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. We reached him in St. John's. Of course, when reporters had the chance today to ask questions of Mr. Furey and Quebec Premier Francois Legault, they didn't just focus on the Churchill Falls deal. They were also asked about comments made by Ontario Premier Doug Ford, specifically his threat to make Americans "feel the pain" by withholding energy exports to the U.S. If President elect Donald Trump goes ahead with his plan to increase tariffs on Canadian goods. Here's how Premier Legault responded, for the record.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: I had the chance to meet with Mr. Trump last weekend in Paris, and he told me very clearly that we can avoid those tariffs if we do what needs to be done with the borders. He doesn't want to see any more illegal immigrants coming from Canada to the U.S. So I think the best choice right now for Mr. Trudeau is to very, table a plan with money, with the number of people to better secure the border. I think we have to do that. It's a lot better than getting 25 per cent tariffs starting on January 21st. So I prefer that than starting a war and stopping sending energy to United States.

CH: For the record, Quebec Premier Francois Legault speaking today.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Scrim On The Loose

Guest: Michelle Cheramie

CH: People track his every move and chart his sightings on a crowdsourced online map. The authorities tried to take him down with dart guns and nets, but he's still out there somewhere on the streets of New Orleans. I speak of Scrim, a 17 pound dog that has become something of a fugitive folk hero. He was rescued from a feral life in a trailer park in April and adopted from a shelter. But in October, he leaped from a second story window, and he's been on the run ever since. Michelle Cheramie is the director of Zeus Rescues. She's been on Scrim's trail for months now. We reached her in New Orleans.

NK: Michelle, I saw the tracker earlier, but I've been in the studio for a bit. Where was Scrim last seen?

MICHELLE CHERAMIE: He was last seen crossing Claiborne Avenue northbound towards the interstate in an area we call the Hoffman Triangle here in New Orleans.

NK: For those who haven't seen the tracker, I mean, Scrim is going everywhere. Like there are so many markers on this, like criss cross is an understatement, right?

MC: That's an understatement. So I actually did the other day, I did a perimeter. I use the Google map measure feature. And the perimeter at that point was 11.68 miles around. That's an insanely large area to try to find a 17 pound dog who can run 20 miles an hour.

NK: Yeah, 17 pounds. And just describe. Again, I've seen pictures of Scrim, but just tell our listeners what Scrim looks like.

MC: He looks a little bit like a Westie and a wire haired terrier mix. He's currently shaved because after I had darted him back on October 23rd, his long hair was matter to the flesh everywhere. So I had to shave all that off and start all over. So unfortunately, he doesn't have much hair right now.

NK: Okay. You've been up close and personal with Scrim, obviously. Why is he called Scrim, first of all, do we know the origins of that?

MC: No. A scrim is just a piece of fabric we use it a lot in Mardi Gras down here on the floats and stuff. And, you know, we get a thousand animals in a year or so. We just randomly choose names. And that was just that one at the time.

NK: It stuck. What is Scrim like to hang out with when he's not on the lam?

MC: He's so cuddly. So he likes to sit in your lap. We took naps. We watched TV. You know he, he's a yoga dog, he does a lot of downward dog poses. He's super sweet. He got along great with my dog. He's your average dog when he's inside the house.

NK: Right. But very hard to catch. You know, he likes to be cuddled, but doesn't like to stay in one place. Why?

MC: Yeah. So he came from a shelter down a little bit south of New Orleans, and he was not treated the best down there. And he was an outside dog, a yard dog. So he was never really allowed inside of a house. So I think somewhere in his little brain, being in a house feels not right to him. Like he gets comfortable and he's like, I'm not supposed to be in here and takes off.

NK: The quotes that in the coverage of this, I mean, they're hilarious. One man says, "my cat comes home after he gets a little hungry, Scrim gets shot twice and still wants to be free. He is choosing this life. And that's kind of an inspiration". I mean...

MC: Yeah. Yeah.

NK: He loves this roaming free life for himself.

MC: I'm not sure I would actually call it Love. There's something called lost dog syndrome. So when a dog gets loose like that, who's had, you know, a difficult past, they go into, you know, just like humans fight, flight or freeze. Unfortunately, he's only choosing flight right now. If he would just freeze for a half a second. I can get him. But realistically, all he's looking for shelter, food and water right now. That anything that he perceives as a threat to that, he just takes off running.

NK: What would it take to make him feel safe? I mean, it's poignant that you mentioned the reasons that he is choosing flight at this point. What do you think it would take to keep him somewhere?

MC: So. Well, that's a really good question. We're looking at different options for his forever, after I get him again. And knowing that he has this need to run. But also, you know, he needs to be taken care of. He needs heartworm prevention and flea medication and shots and not to be shot at. I'm looking for some sort of sanctuary that has, you know, lots of outside spaces that are really secure, along with somewhere where he can be inside, you know, with the family or with another dog because he does enjoy the companionship of other animals and humans. Just when he flip that switch into I'm going to run now mode. He needs to be able to have some boundaries that, you know, he can stay inside.

NK: In terms of the investment, the feelings that people in New Orleans have about Scrim and, you know, their ideas about what should happen to him. Again, the coverage I think of the Associated Press says, you know, that people are divided over this. Would you say that Scrim is dividing New Orleans?

MC: It's a small majority, small but loud majority that is of the free Scrim movement. Most of the people, and as evidenced by the near constant stream of texts and calls that I get with locations and we call them Scrim decoys, dogs that look like Scrim but are not Scrim and people are sending me these updates. The vast majority of people want to see him safe and captured. I think it's fun for people to say, you know, he's of the streets, let him be of the street. But in reality, New Orleans, the streets of New Orleans are not safe for a 17 pound dog who crosses major intersections without stopping.

NK: Are you surprised by the level of attention, The Wall Street Journal, Associated Press, we're calling you from, As It Happens, on CBC Radio. You know, what is it about Scrim that has fascinated so many people, do you think?

MC: Yeah, I think Scrim is a little bit, we can all identify him in some way, shape or form. You know, we're all, I've said it before, either running from something or to something. And he's just really, really good at it. And he has this free spirit about him and he's cute and he's wiry and, you know, people identify with him. And so it's just this great feeling. He's started New Orleans. You know, we're a little ragged, a little rough. You know, we're resilient. We're going to keep coming back. No matter what you throw at us, We're going to keep coming back and being better. So I think everybody here in New Orleans feels like Scrim is part of them.

NK: Michelle, a real pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

MC: Thanks for having me.

CH: Michelle Cheramie is the director of Zeus Rescues. We reached her in New Orleans.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 2: Ont. Encampments Legislation, Rutte Wartime, Medieval Toilet Germs, Anxiety Potluck

Ont. Encampments Legislation

Guest: Alex Nuttall

CH: Heavy fines and prison time for repeated public drug use, measures to allow municipalities to dismantle homeless encampments and new funding for shelters and addiction treatment. They're all part of new proposed legislation announced at a press conference by Ontario's premier Doug Ford today.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: Enough is enough. This has to stop and it will stop. These new measures include amendments to the Trespass to Property Act to enhance penalties for people who deliberately and repeatedly break the law. The legislation will also make it crystal clear that is illegal to use illicit drugs in a public space, including encampments.

CH: Barrie Mayor Alex Nuttall was by the Premier's side at that press conference this morning. We reached him in Barrie.

NK: Mayor, what would this plan allow you to do as Mayor of Barrie that you were not able to do before?

ALEX NUTTALL: Well, I think it's not just myself as mayor, but it's also with the actual police services that operate within each of the Municipalities allow our police services to be able to stop the drugs from being used at a time. And obviously when you have somebody using drugs beside parks, those could be, you know, baseball diamonds or soccer fields or they could be jungle gyms for kids to play on. And so it does allow the police departments to enforce the laws and stop that that use and drug abuse from happening.

NK: So they couldn't do that now, if someone was at a park and said someone's using drugs.

AN: Well, I think right now what we're hearing is that the system isn't actually allowing the police to charge for it and it's not allowing the prosecution to prosecute for it. I think what Premier Ford is trying to do today is to say that we're going to move legislation to reinforce our standards, to, you know, take control back of the standards inside of our parks.

NK: I was just going to say, Mayor, people across the country certainly will have had some sort of experience or knowledge because encampments are certainly a reality in many places across Canada. Just if you could paint a picture for our listeners what it looks like, what's the situation in terms of encampments in Barrie?

AN: Yeah, that's a great question and I think it depends where you are in the city of Barrie. Some places, an encampment is a single tent. In other places it's tens of, of tents side by side and in community. So it's, it's different around the city. Berczy park was one that got some provincial and national attention where we had upwards of 30 folks living inside of the park. We've had fires there. We had major issues along the fence lines. We had individuals overdosing and we had a park that literally became inoperable for young people in the area. And as I continually say, this is an area that has, you know, a multitude of government housing projects that weren't allowing kids to be able to access those park, that park anymore. We've recently been able to help each individual who was in there accept a way out. You know, it was certainly about a month and a half of work to get to that place. And, you know, I'm not naive on the matter. I'm guessing that the weather probably played a large part on whether somebody accepted or not.

NK: Ontario Green Party leader Mike Schreiner, you may have seen said today, quote, "All this legislation does is criminalize homelessness and addictions is going to lead to more death and more suffering", end quote. What would you say in response to that and others who feel that this doesn't address adequately the root causes of these problems?

AN: Well, you know, I stood beside Mayor Carter today, and his story is one that he shares, a person who's dealt with addiction, has dealt with both alcoholism and drug addiction, and who, through intervention, compassion and intervention, was able to find a way out and now serves as the municipal leader for a fine city. And his support for it was certainly over, overwhelming. And something that he believes in passionately and he believes in compassion first, which I think is what we're all trying to achieve.

NK: Did that come across, though, in -- and Premier Ford did say, you know, that that they want to make sure I'm paraphrasing here, you know, they want to help people who are in this situation. But the clip we heard earlier, the enough is enough. That kind of language, does it suggest the compassion? And we talk about fines of 10 thousand dollars, people are in this position not because they're at the best point in their life. And have a lot of money. So that seems, does that seem compassionate to you?

AN: Well, I think the answer to that is yes. I mean, when my parents if I was going down the wrong road, they would say things like, enough is enough. And they're not doing that to say to me, you're a bad person or to demonize me in any way. They're saying, enough's enough. What you're doing is not the right path or not going to help you in reaching your ambitions or your dreams. And I think that that is a very responsible approach, because at the end of the day, I think that, you know, any fentanyl use is too much. And any crack cocaine use is too much. When you then put that into parks, it's scary for kids, it's scary for families. It's scary for young people. You know, 11 and 12 year old’s hanging out in parks and then seeing people smoke these types of substances. It's not good things. These aren't things we want in our children's brains, they're things that will be very destructive to people's lives and are being very destructive to the individuals who are dealing with that addiction. And so I think that there is a, certainly a compassionate approach that says enough's enough, we need to A. get you help and we need to B. Make sure that we have standards in our parks and public spaces that allow for families to be able to use them in the way they were designed. And it is enough. And I said this last week when I was at the legislature in the scrum, you know, we have a park not far from Berczy Park in Barrie, Queen's Park that last year I had to go in and clean up and clean out and there is a couple of tents, but there is a lot of paraphernalia and there was a lot of cocaine used during the day in these, in this park. And this was in the summertime. And this parks, you know, it's got 4 or 5 different sets of project housing around it. Some of it's [inaudible] county housing, some of it's Barrie housing, so on and so forth. Some of it's not for profit. And those parks are the day camp areas for kids who don't have, whose parents don't have the means to put them into day camps. So can you imagine your kids going to day camp every day and witnessing open, rampant drug use. These are not the things that we want inside of our children's minds. And so you can say enough is enough. You can say it in a compassionate way, not just for the individual who's gone down that road where they're suffering from addictions, but also for the children who would witness it inside these parks.

NK: Mayor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

AN: Thank you so much.

CH: We reached Mayor Alex Nuttall in Barrie, Ontario.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Rutte Wartime

CH: Today, NATO's secretary general had a stark message for members of the military alliance. Mark Rutte has said it's time to shift to a, quote, "wartime mindset", unquote. Warnings of a widening conflict with Russia are hardly new given the ongoing war in Ukraine. But this time, there was more urgency in the rhetoric. For years, Donald Trump has mused about not protecting NATO allies who don't spend enough on defense. And with just weeks left before he takes office. Mr. Rutte addressed his remarks specifically to the citizens of Europe and Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK RUTTE: I'll be honest, the security situation does not look good. It's undoubtedly the worst in my lifetime. And I suspect in yours too. From Brussels it takes one day to drive to Ukraine. One day. That's how close the Russian bombs are falling. It's how close the Iranian drones are flying and not very much further. The North Korean soldiers are fighting. Every day this war causes more devastation and death. Every week there are over 10 thousand killed or wounded on all sides in Ukraine. Over one million casualties since February 2022. Putin is trying to wipe Ukraine off the map. He's trying to fundamentally change the security architecture that has kept Europe safe for decades. And he's trying to crush our freedom and way of life. His pattern of aggression is not new. But for too long we did not act. Georgia in 2008. Crimea in 2014. And many did not want to believe he would launch an all-out war on Ukraine in February 2022. How many more wakeup calls do we need? We should be profoundly concerned. I know I am. We are not ready for what is coming our way in 4 to 5 years. Danger is moving towards us at full speed. We must not look the other way. We must face it. What is happening in Ukraine could happen here too. And regardless of the outcome of this war, we will not be safe in the future unless we are prepared to deal with danger. We can do that. We can prevent the next big war on natural territory and preserve our way of life. This requires us all to be faster and fiercer it is time to shift to a wartime mindset and turbocharge our defense production and defense spending.

CH: NATO's secretary general, Mark Rutte, speaking in Brussels earlier today.

[Music: Electronic instrumental]

Medieval Toilet Germs

Guest: Marissa Ledger

CH: Bruges is known for its medieval charm. Nestled in West Flanders, complete with a 14th century City Hall, a similarly historic belfry and a delightful, much photographed main square really takes you back to the Middle Ages. But luckily, not all the way back, because not everything about life centuries ago was so charming. Take, for instance, the latrines. For Marissa Ledger though even 15th and 16th century toilets have their charms, namely the fact that the medieval microbes they contain provide us with a window into life at the time, including how different diseases may have spread. That is the focus of a study published in the journal Parasitology. Ms. Ledger is a postdoctoral fellow at McMaster University's Ancient DNA Center and a coauthor of the study. We reached her in Hamilton, Ontario.

NK: Marissa, could you take us to the city of Bruges, it's a beautiful place, but take us to the 1400s there and the particular neighborhood where this latrine would have been.

MARISSA LEDGER: Yeah. So Bruges in the 15th to 16th centuries so, in the medieval period was actually a very interesting city, was a very busy city. In this time period, it was very heavily involved in trade and long distance trade. So actually within the city there were a lot of kind of international people living there, a lot of merchants from different areas. And where we're working, looking at the latrine that we studied. That latrine was actually located on a household that was located on what's called like an international street within Bruges. And so this street actually held what's called a number of different nation houses. So houses where different trading groups had their basis in the city at that point in time.

NK: A cosmopolitan, multicultural, bustling place, it sounds like. And I bet all of that informed your research, obviously. [ML: Absolutely] But we should mention it was excavated in the '90s and you wanted to take a closer look at it. Why?

ML: Yeah. So this latrine was found in the '90s. And samples had been kept over obviously that entire time period. And then I had some collaborators who were actually from Belgium themselves, archeologists, and they actually found the samples from the latrine. And given how interesting we know this household would have been at that time period and the people living there. They wanted to do a big study looking at the contents of the latrine to better understand these people who lived there. And because I'm interested in ancient infectious diseases and understanding infectious disease through time, they asked me to look for preserved parasites in the latrine. And parasites are really cool in that they can give us an indication of how people are traveling. And so that's what we were looking for.

NK: And there were a lot of different parasites in this latrine from Bruges. Just let me just say, I mean, we're having this really fascinating conversation about what some people might say are ultimately kind of disgusting topics, we're talking about toilets and parasites. But you love this.

ML: Absolutely. So I guess my, a lot of my research is focused on actually studying ancient poop or ancient fecal material as sometimes I try to say to put it nicely, but it really helps us understand people in the past and diseases that people experienced through time.

NK: Yeah, it is important and fascinating work. Honestly, I just wanted to underline what I think everybody is probably thinking as we introduce the story. But give us a sense of what you and the team we're dealing with here when we're talking about the number of different parasites in this latrine.

ML: Yeah. So typically, we take a lot of soil out of the latrine, obviously, and that's preserved fecal material. But we actually just look at a very small amount. So like less than a gram of soil to look for preserved parasite eggs because they're so small and we see them under the microscope. And in that small gram of sample, there's thousands of parasite eggs. And so that tells us kind of the extent. And likely there are a number of different people who used that washroom in that house who are infected with different parasites. So it's not just one parasite. There's multiple different species of parasites that were there. And so it tells us that people living in the city were getting parasites with [inaudible]. That was probably a normal occurrence. They maybe had some abdominal pain or GI upset, some diarrhea from that, but they were also getting parasites from farther abroad as well.

NK: And one egg in particular was of interest. Tell us about that.

ML: Yeah. So that was the egg, just [inaudible] And that was something that was so exciting for us to find because that's actually a parasite. It causes schistosomiasis. And the parasite itself is not found in Bruges. So someone who was infected with it using that washroom could not have been infected in Bruges. So it tells us they must have picked it up elsewhere. And really got parasites predominately found in Africa. So it tells us they had a link to Africa at that time. And we know there is lots of trade happening. Today schistosomiasis is also found in South America, but it's actually been proposed that it was introduced to South America much more recent, in recent history, probably with the Atlantic slave trade in that time period when the Atlantic slave trading was actually starting up, because it gives us direct evidence for that parasite moving around at that time period. And it probably just after this, was then introduced into South America where it persisted to today.

NK: And so the world was changing. And this is sort of a kind of a map of how it was changing.

ML: Exactly. We're seeing people moving around, and as a result, they're taking their parasites that they're picking up in different areas, the world with them. And there we can find that hundreds of years later.

NK: You've been interested in this topic, as we've said, for a long time. But do you find that it's gaining more interest, this particular field of study?

ML: I think it's picking up absolutely. As an anthropologist and a biological anthropologist, we're very interested in understanding the changes in infectious diseases through time and how they've evolved. But parasites similar to modern infectious disease works have always been understudied compared to other big pathogens or things like plague that cause big epidemics. And so we're actually quite interested in understanding these other diseases that people had every day of their lives. Lots of people had these. And I think slowly, as we're getting more evidence, more people become interested and the field is starting to grow.

NK: So it helps fill in blanks about the past and helps draw that map, as we talked about, about how the world was changing and how far and where these parasites were traveling to or the path of disease overall. But in terms of today, how do you use this information?

ML: Yeah, I think it's important to understand how these parasites have changed over time and how we have impacted their spread over time, because a lot of these parasites that we find in the latrine are actually still very common on a global scale today. While we might not get them in Canada, people do pick them up all over the world. And for large parts of the world they're very prominent diseases today. And so understanding how humans have changed, how those parasites have been spread around and how we've impacted their predominance through time gives us some idea into how do we control them from a public health strategy? What are the big impact things we can do that can help kind of prevent the spread of some diseases? And how have we changed them ourselves over a longer time period?

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Marissa. Thanks for this.

ML: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

CH: Marissa Ledger is a co-author of a study that looks at parasites found in five hundred year old latrines. We reached her in Hamilton, Ontario.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Anxiety Potluck

CH: If you're concerned about division and nastiness in the culture, inviting a lot of strangers to a potluck doesn't necessarily seem like a promising fix. But Gagan Singh is doing it, and he says it's working pretty well. Mr. Singh has been hosting events at his B.C. farm and using social media to invite people to join him around a bonfire for some food and fun. He says he was finding that Canadians seemed increasingly polarized and isolated online, so he decided to do something about it. Gagan Singh told the CBC how the events are going and how he thinks they help build community.

SOUNDCLIP

GAGAN SINGH: When people feel safe, when they feel like they're in a trusted space, when they don't feel like they're being taken advantage of. Right. I'm not charging people anything. I'm not making money off this, people get comfortable. And when I set the stage, people talk about everything. They talk about politics. They talk about sexual identity for children. They talk about war. They talk about life. They talk about cultures. And guess what? They talk about it respectfully, Not the kind of trauma responses we're seeing online. So everyone's talking about everything as long as we make them feel comfortable and safe. It's amazing how well Canadians can communicate.

STEPHEN QUINN: And what have you got planned exactly for this evening if people do show up?

GAGAN SINGH: Yeah, I mean, it's not if a ton of people are...

STEPHEN QUINN: When they do show up.

GAGAN SINGH: Thank you Stephen, you know what it's going to be, everyone's bringing different foods from different backgrounds. We're going to come we're going to hangout. And I find, you know, social anxiety is at its peak right now. You know, people are terrified to leave their house. Loneliness is an epidemic and people are really scared to socialize. But if you come to my events, I make socializing easier. We play icebreaker games. Let me break you up into groups. Let's do trivia. If people don't have to focus on talking one on one with people, but they have an activity in front of them, it allows the bonding to happen. It allows you to understand that, hey, we actually have a lot more in common than separate. So we're going to have food, we're going to have bonfire, we're going to have games, we're going to have bonding. We're going to have community.

STEPHEN QUINN: And why an open invite potluck? I mean, it sounds like, you know, an awful lot of people who may have attended similar things. Why not, you know, keep a list and invite people back. Rather than opening it -- I guess that's part of the point. You just open it up to new people every time.

GAGAN SINGH: Yeah, I've been doing a lot of different functions. My main goal is to start rebuilding community and I've been hosting a lot of different functions like farmer's markets, like classes. I want to open it up so it doesn't feel like it's just a brown thing. This is only Punjabi people invited. I open it up so any one of any background can come. And if you follow me on Instagram or TikTok, you watch my videos. It's so electric to see people of different colours, different backgrounds, getting together, hanging out, talking, being Canadian.

CH: That was Gagan Singh speaking to Stephen Quinn, host of The Early Edition this morning.

[Music: Violin instrumental]

Part 3: FOA: Youngest Chess Champ, Alaskan Island Returnee, Mediterranean Child Rescue, N.B. Lobster Christmas Tree

FOA: Youngest Chess Champ

CH: There were gasps today at the World Chess Championships in Singapore. That's right, chess gasps. The reigning champ, Ding Liren and the 18 year old upstart Gukesh Dommaraju, who went into the 14th and final classical game of the tournament, tied. And an hour into the game. Mr. Dommaraju was pressing hard. If he won, he would become the youngest ever world champ. But Ding Liren put on a steely defensive display. At least that's how the World Chess Association commentators were calling it until...

SOUNDCLIP

JOVANKA HOUSKA: Well, we are setting up that position. King to E5.

DAVID HOWELL: G2 would be a very safe, healthy square. This looks like it's a [gasp] Ding's blundered! Ding's blundered!

JOVANKA HOUSKA: What? No!

DAVID HOWELL: Has he? He's off. He can now trade rooks with Gukesh and trade bishops. [JH: Oh No.] The bishops in the corner cannot be, it cannot escape. [JH gasps] Gukesh is winning. And I hear something next door. The crowd has gone crazy. He can now take this rook off the board. And then...

JOVANKA HOUSKA: Oh my God, look at Gukesh. Oh my goodness. And it came from nowhere.

DAVID HOWELL: Is this over? Bishop takes Bishop now, is this winning for Gukesh that is the question.

JOVANKA HOUSKA: Wow, let's dive in, David, because this is a moment. Look at Gukesh. It's like his prayers have been answered.

DAVID HOWELL: He's got over one hour Gukesh. He's trying to calm himself down, but his instincts tell him he's winning. It does look that way. Rook takes Rook, followed by a bishop exchange. And Gukesh will be the world champion.

JOVANKA HOUSKA: Gukesh, cannot believe his eyes.

DAVID HOWELL: Ding reacts. Ding realizes as well. What a blunder. Ding cannot believe it.

JOVANKA HOUSKA: Just a moment of carelessness there from Ding. A moment of madness.

DAVID HOWELL: Ding is lost. Gukesh is about to become the youngest world champion in history.

JOVANKA HOUSKA: Wow. And what a moment.

CH: World Chess Association commentators Jovanka Houska and David Howell. Calling Gukesh Dommaraju's victory today as the youngest ever uncontested chess champion of the world. But Mr. Dommaraju may not want to rest too long on his freshly earned laurels. Shreyas Royal has the title in his sights. In August, the 15 year old Briton became the UK's youngest ever grandmaster. Here's how he described the experience.

SOUNDCLIP

SHREYAS ROYAL: It was quite a special moment for me. You know, it's overflowing with positive emotions, but perhaps the strongest emotion that I felt was relief. Extremely relieved to become Britain's youngest Grandmaster.

STEPHANIE SKENDERIS: When did you realize that this title was going to be yours?

SR: Yes. I think most chess players, when they start off, they do want to get the Grandmaster title. And, you know, as I slowly rose up the ranks when I was about, 8 or 9 years old, you know, I had, shown some of my potential, that it was possible that one day I would become a Grandmaster.

SS: So, we're not talking about a move or two. You've had this in mind for years.

SR: Yes. As a chess player, I like to think far in advance.

SS: [laughter] And it paid off clearly. You're not just a Grandmaster now. You're the youngest British Grandmaster ever. Breaking the record that was set in 2007 by David Howell, who was 16 at the time. What did David think about this?

SR: It's quite funny that you mention that because, I did play David, in that tournament. I managed to win the game and yeah, it was quite special to beat him in that game. I didn't think he was particularly happy after that, but he was quite gracious in defeat. He was certainly even more gracious on the, during the final round when I finished my game. He immediately, you know, got up from his game. He came to congratulate me, and then he went back. So obviously, I think he was pretty happy to see that, Britain finally has more talents.

SS: So now that you've earned this title, how do you top it? You've said in the past that you want to be world champion by the age of 21. Is that right? Do you think that's possible?

SR: I mean, anything is possible. Now that I'm a bit more realistic, I realize that, obviously chess is much more difficult than it initially seems. So as much as I would like to be world champion, achieving at the age of 21, you know, may seem a bit far off, but I feel like having, high ambitions will definitely drive you. And, yeah, I'll see. And if I can achieve it.

SS: So, age 22, then.

SR: Yeah. I mean, I hope to be world champion at some point. Yeah.

CH: That was the 15 year old British chess Grandmaster Shreyas Royal talking with, As It Happens, guest host Stephanie Skenderis in August.

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Alaskan Island Returnee

Guest: Helena Pagano

CH: Helena Pagano says it's time for Japan to help her people tell their story. Ms. Pagano is part of an unrecognized tribe that once lived on an island called Attu in Alaska's Aleutian Island chain. It's one of a handful of U.S. territories that was captured by Japan during the Second World War, before its surviving inhabitants were eventually taken to Japan. This summer, she visited that island alongside Japanese officials, recovering the remains of their war dead. And that visit has sparked a new fire in Ms. Pagano. Now she says it's time for Japan to take accountability for how it treated Attuans during that time. And she wants to see that country and her own make amends for her ancestors forced exile from their homeland during the war. We reached Helena Pagano in Anchorage, Alaska.

NK: Helena, what was it like for you to visit the island, to go this summer and spend the night?

HELENA PAGANO: So there's a lot of mixed emotions, of course. Our government didn't allow our people to return to their traditional homeland after World War Two. And so a lot of us haven't seen it. The day before, I wrote in my journal saying that the animals will welcome me. And one of my lines, I said the porpoises will jump for joy for me. And they did on the way into my island. And I didn't see it because I was drumming so, the animals did welcome me home.

NK: This was deeply personal for you, obviously. What else were you able to do once you were there? Because it wasn't just that emotional experience you were fact finding in a way.

HP: Right. I went to collect water samples in that creek to see if there's any of the remaining World War Two contaminants or any other contaminants. I just received the results not too long ago, so I haven't been able to analyze it. I also just made sure to spend time that I could by myself on the land and near the ocean.

NK: If we look back at the history. What stories did you grow up with about that time and what was happening on Attu?

HP: Our family didn't really talk about it that much. It was always so, it was obviously trauma, a lot of trauma. So my grandmother at that time didn't talk about it, and she also didn't want us to learn our language, which is a kind of common thread around Indigenous countries that I wasn't really taught.

NK: How did you end up finding out what happened if your relatives were so, understandably, you know, unwilling to relive those memories?

HP: Yeah. It's really just a piece of the puzzle. Like, I hear something from someone and then I hear another part of the story later on and some people don't talk about it. And so it's just putting pieces together over time.

NK: Just tell our listeners a little bit about what your great grandfather and his son experienced there.

HP: They were only given three tablespoons of rice per day. And so it was literally just starvation. And they also were medically experimented on. My grandfather was one of them. And so when you put in starvation, medical experimentation, and then he might have eaten an orange peel that was rotten. That's not the only reason why he died. But he also gave up his portions of food to the women and children.

NK: When you were visiting the island for those two days, Japanese representatives were also there and exhuming their war dead. Did you know that that was going to be happening.

HP: At that time, I didn't know they were actually exhuming the remains. I am quite disappointed in that because even though our community would not have agreed with what they were doing, I would have still at least provided a traditional ceremony for them, just as respect to where they were. So it's just a loss in that regard. But moving forward, I hope that they include us.

NK: Part of the reason you're talking about your experiences is to raise awareness about what happened on Attu, but also to get to a point where Japan can in some way make amends for what Attuans went through at that time. What would you like to see happen?

HP: Again, like I want to reiterate that some Attuans won't want anything to do with the Japanese. And so I can't say that we are all collected in that healing process. But I do feel that the Japanese government needs to be held accountable for what they've done. In the 1950s, there was a treaty between the U.S. and the Japanese government where we weren't able to get repatriation or restitution for our traditional homelands or for what happened to our people. So I hope to see more than an apology. They are responsible for some of the environmental damage that was done on our island that is still exists to this day, as well as the U.S. government.

NK: What would you like to see from the American government?

HP: From my own government is a whole nother topic. I currently, want them to recognize this as a tribe. We are an unrecognized tribe. During the 1970s they said that we didn't have a stable village, we didn't have a community that lived together. Which is just their racist policies that they had at the time. Essentially, we were removed forcibly and their government saying, you don't exist there, so why should we make you a tribe? So it's just them still oppressing us, essentially.

NK: I've seen just some photographs of Attu Island, and it looks beautiful from those images. What would you want our listeners to know about what it's like?

HP: Yeah, so I don't know if anybody's been to Ireland, but it's Ireland on steroids, so it's very green. But in Alaska there's glacier mountains and glacier valleys. So it's huge mountains and huge valleys. Literally, the green will go to the very tip top of the mountain. So it's just stunning. And there's this one location because of the mountains, when you hear the loon echoes, you could hear the loon, like within, like a couple of miles because of the landscape. Traditionally, there used to be more than 70 thousand birds, but seabirds. But that's the current population. So my people are bird people. That's how much importance those animals had in our life.

NK: What do you imagine for Attuans and Attu island in the future? You know, if everything was to proceed, if everything were to proceed exactly how you dream.

HP: Right. I would hope that because we are dislocated, that we have a cultural center somewhere where we can still learn about who we are and be a part of our traditions and our way of life, but also to have the U.S. government held accountable, to be able to visit Attu not just one time, not just a couple times, but make it a regular basis. My son wanted to go with me on this last trip and wasn't able to. So it's, fighting for my children and my children's children to be able to see where they came from.

NK: Helena, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

HP: Yeah, Thank you.

CH: Helena Pagano spoke to us from Anchorage. Her great grandfather was the last chief on the remote Alaskan island of Attu.

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Mediterranean Child Rescue

Guest: Valeria Passeri

CH: Rescuers believe she had been floating alone in the middle of the Mediterranean for days before they found her. The 11 year old girl is believed to be the lone survivor of a migrant shipwreck who stayed afloat with the help of inflated inner tubes and a lifejacket. According to her account, she and about 40 others set out from Tunisia in a metal boat in the hopes of reaching Italy. The girl says she's originally from Sierra Leone. When an NGO rescue ship found her, she was suffering from hypothermia and had had no food or water. Valeria Passeri is a social worker who met the girl hours after her arrival on the Italian island of Lampedusa. That's where we reached her.

NK: Valeria, how is this little girl doing now?

VALERIA PASSERI: She is fine for now. She was in the emergency room in the first hours that she got to Lampedusa. And we think that now, she has reached the first reception center for migrants here in Lampedusa.

NK: I wonder if you could describe for us your first meeting, your impressions when you saw her and spoke to her for the first time. Because we weren't there. If you could paint a picture for our listeners.

VP: Yeah, actually, my colleague and a volunteer from our team went to meeting her in the emergency room where she was. And she was fine in that moment. She was, she has been, she had been there for a couple of hours. So she had the new clothes, which were dry and she had heating blankets and she was doing fine for, considering the situation. And they just spoke to her briefly just to see if she was okay and if she needed something. So she didn't say much more to us, but we were [inaudible] that she was okay.

NK: When you say fine, what do you mean by fine?

VP: I mean, she was safe and she was okay in that moment. That's what we can say.

NK: I asked that because when you think of what this little girl has been through, it's hard to imagine what fine might be like.

VP: Of course, we can say that in this moment that she was physically safe and that she was able to speak, that's what I mean.

NK: And what did she tell?

VP: Of course. We just greet her and just say a few words. That was it. We didn't talk much, actually. And we also went to leave her to rest as it was a, you know.

NK: I guess, you know, I wonder what you say to a child in that moment to try to make them feel safe.

VP: Yeah, of course. I mean, we are not professionals or psychologists, so we just wanted to check her up, if we could, to be useful in some way. We just wanted to see if she needed clothes or something to eat or something else. And that was it, I guess. Not nothing more than we know that a psychologist was coming by from the Red Cross.

NK: Did she ask for anything or share any details about what she experienced?

VP: No. No.

NK: What have you been able to find out about what exactly happened, how she ended up alone, you know, just with a life vest in the water. It's interesting. I was reading a statement from the captain of a German sailing ship who said they just heard her, just coincidentally. You know, they could have easily not heard her because of the roar of their own engine.

VP: Yeah. Yeah. You know, we don't know exactly what happened, and she didn't tell us anything. We also didn't want to ask in that situation, as the NGO said, probably there were -- I mean, they said that there were other people traveling with her. That's what we know. But that's it. We don't know what happened with the boats and anything. So, yeah, we don't know much. What we know is that there were in the late hours and maybe even the day before, before this happened, there were many reports of boats in distress. So we as an observatory, on migration feel that something more might have been done and where this could be avoided. You know, that's what we can say.

NK: You've been doing this work for a long time. We've certainly covered many of these kinds of rescues and their aftermath on this program. It happens over and over again. This situation, this little girl all on her own does seem different than some of what we've heard and seen in the past. Is it different than what you've experienced?

VP: It's very peculiar that she was found alone, but yeah, we don't know exactly what could have happened. And we are glad that she is safe. But we are wondering also what happened to the other people and how that incident be possible?

NK: So she hasn't shared or been able to share at this point anything that she has...

VP: No, No. no, not with us.

NK: You mentioned that this little girl has left the hospital and is now at a migrant center. What's your understanding of what might happen to her next?

VP: She's an unaccompanied minor. So there will be procedures about that. But we don't know exactly which there will be. I guess they're still trying to understand the situation. So, yeah, I guess that they will see what can be done. But we don't know as it is now what exactly is going to happen.

NK: She's just a little girl all by herself.

VP: Yeah, that is very, very worrying as, as it is in many other cases where there are accompanied minor or survivors of shipwrecks in general. And you know, as I was saying before, it would be very important to have safe ways to come to avoid these kind of things to happen to people and to kids. But in general, to anybody who is trying to reach Italy and Europe.

NK: Valeria, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

VP: Thank you very much for having me.

CH: Valeria Passeri is a social worker with Mediterranean Hope, a program of the Federation of Protestant Churches in Italy. We reached her in Lampedusa, Italy.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

N.B. Lobster Christmas Tree

CH: When Greg Rossiter saw the town Christmas tree, he was unimpressed, to say the least. In fact, he said a word that we cannot air on the radio. The Christmas Tree in Fundy Albert, New Brunswick this year is a tree, and that is the problem. Normally, Fundy Albert's Christmas tree is made of a pile of carefully stacked lobster traps. And the town said it tried to do that again this year, but there were concerns that the structure was unsafe. So it put up a traditional tree with fishing nets draped across it and lobster traps as the base. That was not okay with Greg Rossiter, who was a fish buyer for Collin's Lobster. So he grabbed his forklift and got to work.

SOUNDCLIP

GREG ROSSITER: It's sort of a now a tradition. And for someone to say, no, they're not going to do it and then put up the, Christmas tree that is there in front of the cultural center now. We thought that was for just Christmas in the country a couple weekends ago. We thought it was just a little decoration that they had put up, not in replace of the trap tree. So when I inquired to some individuals that are employees of Fundy Albert and they said it was because of maybe liability issues. And that the traps were in disrepair and it wasn't engineered properly and someone could get hurt. I thought, well, it's worked in the past. It can work again. So I went upon myself and took the afternoon while waiting for actual lobster boats to come in and took a forklift and then continued to construct it. I mean, you don't have to be a rocket science. You just have to be really good at Lego. If one doesn't fit, you try another and you keep going from there. It may not be the prettiest one that we as Elma or Fundy Albert has ever constructed, but it does the trick. And I think some people like it. Some people also probably don't. That's their own opinions. But I think it looks neat it pays respects to the fisherman. And like I said, we are a fishing community. So it's just our little spin on Christmas.

CH: That was Greg Rossiter speaking with Victoria Walton of CBC, New Brunswick.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For December 12, 2024

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