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The AIH transcript for April 07, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Crash Course. Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz tells us Donald Trump's tariffs are nothing short of reckless, and that the U.S. President is playing dangerous games with the global economy.

CH: crude awakening. Oil prices have plummeted since the tariff announcement. An industry CEO says that if prices stay low, it's not just bad for business, it is bad for oil and gas workers, and bad for the Canadian economy.

NK: The Point of dino-return. The owners of Tyra, the huge roadside T-rex in Drumheller, Alberta announced their plan to tear her down, so a dismayed resident started a petition to save her and got a surprising response to his call to tiny arms.

CH: A duo with no do-overs. Amadou and Mariam were a couple and a couple of phenomenal musicians who never recorded a bad song. His death marks the end of a magical malleum partnership.

NK: Pro-creative license. An endangered Galapagos tortoise at a U.S. zoo just gave birth to hatchlings for the very first time at the age of 100. We'll find out how many of them are named Shelley.

CH: And...they can't get runs and they can hide. The two men's teams with the worst records in American college baseball will face off in what might be the worst baseball game ever.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that hopes they don't rely on their base instincts.

[theme]

Part 1: Joseph Stiglitz, Drumheller Dino, Loser Baseball Game

Joseph Stiglitz

Guest: Joseph Stiglitz

CH: It looks something like the signature U.S. President Donald Trump scrawls on executive orders and MAGA hats. A jagged unbroken line, rising a little and falling more, in a series of quick, steep spikes and valleys. That's what the stock market index charts looked like today. In slight contrast to the unvarying descent they took last week, after the announcement of sweeping tariffs applied by the U.S. on hundreds of nations around the world. Joseph Stiglitz is a Nobel Prize-winning economist with Columbia University. He also served as an advisor to the Clinton administration, and was the chief economist of the World Bank from 1997 to 2000. We reached him in New York City.

NK: Professor, I'd like to start with the volatility we've seen just today alone, if you don't mind, the swings that we've see based on just the suggestion that was later pulled back that tariffs might be paused. That was reined in. But do you think the U.S. president is going to have to bow to the markets eventually?

JOSEPH STIGLITZ: Well, the word have to is a peculiar word. [NK chuckles] President Trump has ignored the advice of everybody that across the board, high tariffs will be bad for the United States, will be bad for global economy. At the same time, he's also evidenced a lot of volatility, vagaries, and the market reflects that. Anybody normal would respond to what is going on by turning them back. But if you look at the way they were imposed, it's totally different from the way trade policy has been conducted in every other administration. This is an embarrassment.

NK: What do you think the administration's objective is? What does he want from Canada and other countries?

JS: Well, he has a fixation on trade deficits. He thinks the existence of trade deficits is a symptom of unfair treatment. You might say he has this view that since America is better than any other country, we should be exporting more than we import. And if the opposite is true, somebody must be unfair. He ignores the fact that the world -- and the United States -- has moved from a goods economy to a service economy. He focuses just on the deficit in the goods trade. The United States is a major exporter of services, tourist, financial services, education, health services. And the irony is that at the very moment that he's worried about the deficit, he's doing enormous damage to several of our major service exports. What he's doing to our universities, what he's doing to tourism, by what ICE is doing to what borders are doing in terms of people coming into the United States, the threat to make Canada the 51st state. All of this has been a disaster for our major export sector, which is services. So, one has to understand what he's doing in the context of a very broad theory of the economy and a worldview that is based on grievance. He thinks other countries are treating us unfairly and he wants to get back at them. That's not going to solve any problems. You know, the irony of all of this is the U.S. was central in writing the rules of international trade, and most countries have the view that the U S wrote those rules to favour the United States, not against the United States.

NK: So, what is your advice, Professor, for America's trading partners? Hit back, or try to ride it out?

JS: Well, I think that one of the things that Trump has repeatedly shown is that he only respects power. And so, I think one can negotiate, but one needs to negotiate from the position of power. And I believe that he has fewer cards in his hand than he really thinks he has. The United States is only less than 20 per cent of global GDP. The United States has already lost the comparative advantage in certain high-tech sectors because we haven't been training the number of engineers that say China's been training. So, and countries have been on notice for a number of years now that there's a possibility that U.S. will act erratically, to say the least. And so, there's been a diversification that puts countries in better stead in responding to his unconscionable trade action.

NK: And just finally, Professor, do you see a recession coming?

JS: I think there's a very high probability, yes. And it's based on several factors. There have been these massive layoffs in the public sector, and that trickles down to contractors. The attack on the universities. The uncertainty means consumer confidence is low, investors are not going to be investing. One of the ironies, again, of this trade policy wants investment back in the United States. But his undermining the rule of law, his erratic policies creates a very uncertain environment where even if in the long run people were to invest, they're going to hold off until they see the way things shake out. And then, we as a country depend very heavily on immigrants. And for many, many parts of our economy, the trade policy, the immigration policy is going to create inflation, and the Fed typically responds to inflation by raising interest rates, and that will slow down the economy. So, I see a conjunction of so many negatives that I see it hard, I find it hard to see how we will escape a downturn.

NK: Professor, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

JS: So, thank you.

CH: Joseph Stiglitz is a Nobel Prize-winning professor of economics with Columbia University. We reached him in New York City.

[hip-hop]

Drumheller Dino

Guest: AJ Frey

CH: If you visit Drumheller, Alberta, it's hard to miss Tyra. She's kind of an important figure in town. Also she's gigantic. She’s so big you can climb the stairs inside her and see the breathtaking view from inside her mouth. Tyra is a massive fiberglass T-rex that towers over the fossil-famous town. But recently the local chamber of commerce -- which owns Tyra the Tyrannasaurus -- announced that it's going to get rid of her. And that's triggered a movement to save Tyra. AJ Frey owns the Munchie Machine food truck in Drumheller. He's launched a petition that's collected more than 20,000 signatures. We reached him on the road in Medicine Hat, Alberta.

NK: So, AJ, when you found out that Tyra may soon be extinct, what did you think? How did you react?

AJ FREY: Honest first reaction was kind of shock and disbelief. I checked to see if it was, like, April Fools already. I was like, what? This can't be. Because it was, we've decided and we're done. And that was shocking. [laughing]

NK: The shock of the news and the finality that you were hearing, what about your neighbors and others in town?

AF: The mayor immediately reacted the same way. I think the community felt entirely the same. We were all just like, but nobody's talked about this. So, the initial spark of the change.org petition was just to start a dialog with the chamber because they weren't talking to the mayor, they weren't talking to Travel Drumheller, they weren't talking to the people of the town of Drumheller. So, I started it to basically get a sit-down with the chamber of commerce. I've requested that, they said no, I politely re-requested, and I'm now waiting to hear back again.

NK: So far, publicly, the head of the chamber of commerce, Heather Bitz, has said the replica has a limited lifespan, and she knows it's not popular to get rid of her, but that it has to be done, you know, extensive repairs over the years. They have to pay for the upkeep. So, what do you say to that line of reasoning?

AF: That's a fine line to toe in the sand after you didn't communicate with the community that you asked for permission and help to fundraise to build that, you know, the world's largest dinosaur. Like, Tyra is something the community feels a lot of pride in, and the chamber has, you know, communicated that they've made the decision that it's done. But they haven't shared any of the information on, you know, what's involved in maintenance and upkeep, like actual numbers. They haven't share any of that information.

NK: I wanted to ask you a little bit more about why Tyra is so beloved. Because ultimately, Tyra's a roadside attraction, but clearly much more to you and everyone who has signed this petition, certainly people who live in Drumheller. What is it about this attraction?

AF: Somebody on social media said this is like Paris saying, hey, we're going to tear down the Eiffel Tower. And I know Tyra has only been up for 25 years and that she has a finite lifespan. I think, though, with proper management, planning, tourist dollars, fundraising for the community, that she can actually be turned into an asset for the people of the town of Drumheller. If we can figure out a way to maintain and look after this dinosaur with tourist dollars alone, then I'd agree with the chamber. They should release it and focus on business because they don't want to focus on tourism. Fair enough. I get that. So, then we basically buy the dinosaur from the the chamber of commerce by doing a fundraiser. And then, once the community owns that dinosaur then the tourist dollars that come in from that dinosaur would go to maintenance and upkeep. A percentage of any tourist-related stuff that's sold in the store would go into, you know, the same kind of fund. And then, the people of the town of Drumheller would have access to money to do things in town that they wanted to do apart from town council. That could be more tourist attractions, that could be, let's make a second bridge -- depending on how much money the dinosaur can generate.

NK: Like, are people going to pay to come see it?

AF: Yeah, well people already do. People pay, I believe it's $10 to go up.

NK: To go up inside it?

AF: And then, you climb the stairs. The view is amazing. You get to stand in the mouth of it. It holds a record for world's largest dinosaur, which is also very cool. So, we lose more than just the dinosaur. We lose the record. We lose tourists who come to see the dinosaur. And right now, it looks like that number is at 150,000 a year, but I still haven't seen any quantifiable data on that.

NK: And, you know, you mentioned the Eiffel Tower example that someone posted. I take the point that they're trying to make. There are a lot of Parisians who have never liked the Eifel Tower. I certainly think it's beautiful. People may laugh at that comparison, but I hear what you're saying about how much this means to you and to people there. 2029 Is when it's supposed to come down, when Tyra is supposed to go, unless you get your way. You have a six-year-old at home, if I'm not mistaken?

AF: I do, yeah.

NK: What does he make of all of this?

AF: So, he doesn't completely understand what's happening because he's six. He just wants to go see the dinosaur a lot more. [chuckling] But basically, we've just kind of said, hey, the dinosaur is getting old. We don't know what's gonna happen. Daddy's trying to find out what's going to happen and we'll see if we can save the dinosaur. That's kind of how I'm presenting it to my [laughing] six-year-old, so.

NK: I mean, that's a that's a pretty good way to frame it. Pretty upfront. 2029, It sounds like you feel you have enough momentum to maybe turn this around before then. What do you think?

AF: I think so. And I think if we continue the momentum, even if we carried this petition through tourist season, and people were coming to town and saying, no, no, no, no. I think absolutely you're right that there's enough momentum to change the course of this. And, like, a few businesses in town already are like, we are going to be so busy this summer. And I'm like, right? [laughing] So, this also has a side effect for all of us is that it's drawing attention to our town in a way we don't draw attention to ourselves because we're a small town. There's not a lot of times that you'll hear someone in Drumheller say look at us. We're Drumheller and we're amazing. And, and that's what I'm trying to do right now is just say look at us, we're Drumheller, and we are amazing. We just have a disagreement about a big dinosaur right now

NK: AJ, I'm glad we could speak. Thanks for this.

AF: Awesome! No, thank you.

CH: AJ Frey is the owner of the Munchie Machine food truck in Drumheller, Alberta. We contacted the Drumheller Chamber of Commerce for a response, but we did not hear back before we went to air.

[cop movie music?]

Loser Baseball Game

Guest: Dan Sarmiento

CH: Tomorrow, the world will finally learn the answer to an age-old paradox: what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. I'm not talking about physics, though: I'm talking about Division Three college baseball. Tomorrow afternoon, the Yeshiva University Maccabees and the Lehman College Lightning will face off in a low-stakes match-up that may be the worst baseball game of all time. Lehman College is the unstoppable force -- losing 42 straight games so far. And the immovable object is Yeshiva University, which has lost a truly phenomenal 99 games in a row. Meaning whoever loses tomorrow will be crowned the ultimate loser. Dan Sarmiento runs the baseball YouTube channel, “Enjoy The Show”. We reached Mr. Sarmiento at Hollywood Burbank Airport, before his flight to the game.

NK: Dan, I bet you've seen some, some competitive, high caliber baseball in the past. How do you think this is going to rank? You know, what are you bracing for tomorrow?

DAN SARMIENTO: You know what? I'm honestly just excited to see one of them win. Like, the talent level, I'm really not sure because, you know, D3 baseball gets a bad rap in general because there's D1 and D2, but there also are some really good players. I'm not sure. I'm honestly, like, if you have a losing streak that bad, you must have just a talent deficit that other teams take advantage of. But I'm also ready to be pleasantly surprised that maybe they just, you know, had a bad, you know, luck of the draw over the past few years with recruiting, and some guys maybe some injuries and stuff. But I'm honestly just excited to get there and figure it out for myself because I still have a lot of unanswered questions on my end.

NK: Yeah, like a lot of people, I think. What do you think the atmosphere will be like there? Because, you know, whether people love baseball or not, I think a lot of people enjoy the vibe, the atmosphere of a game, even if they're not, they're not paying attention to the game itself, as you and so many others will be, obviously. But what is the atmosphere going to be like when you have two teams that have been not doing well, to say the very least?

DS: You know, I think it'll be fun. I think It'll be way more fun than, like, if you go to a White Sox game because they were really bad last year. And just, like, it's just depressing when you go there, and like, if they win it's a surprise, but it's, like, still kind of not great because they're still horrible. People are going to be fired up regardless of what happens because someone has to win the game. And it's going to someone's first win in, like, two years-plus. So, it's gonna be a great atmosphere. I don't know how many people are gonna be there. If I had to guess, it might be close to 1,000, over 1,000 just from the amount of messages I've gotten, and, like, the reach that my posts have done that I've seen people engaging with and being like, oh I'm going. I got to go there. You know, even if there's 500 to 1,000 people there getting that for this kind of game is just going to be awesome. I think people are just ready to have a fun time and, like, just cheer both teams on, even though it's not, like, I don't think they're going to have much affinity towards who wins. They just want to see someone win, which is like, you know, it's an overall good environment I think it'll be.

NK: Is it, is there a bit of a car wreck, you know, staring at a car wreck situation, do you think?

DS: You know, I think so in a way. But, like, my goal with documenting this is, like, kind of flipping that and not just dunking on them for not winning games. But I also want to, like, flip it and be like, hey, like, there's a reason these teams aren't where they want to be. Like, a lot of its funding So, like, hopefully I'm gonna do a little fundraiser on my video where people can donate and I'll just split the proceeds to both teams. And hopefully they'll accept it. And I've talked to some kids on the teams and they're really excited about that opportunity. So, you know, the bigger this video does, hopefully the more reach we can get with funding. And send them some money and, like, help them redo their facilities, help them with recruiting. Like, a big thing with recruiting is facilities.

NK: Sure.

DS: And you want to have somewhere where you're like, oh, I can get better here every day. And what I've heard from these both teams is, like, they don't have, like, a place that they can really call home. You know, a weight room, or, like, a field that isn't maintained. So, a lot of those things is, like, it's just stuff that people don't really think about that funding comes into. And, you know, funding is everything when it comes to recruiting.

NK: Let me play listeners a little bit of what you said in one of your TikTok posts, which has a lot of likes now, a lot views. Let's listen to that now.

SOUNDCLIP

DS: If this video can get 10,000 likes on any platform, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, me and my buddies will fly to New York in a couple of weeks to see this historic game take place.

NK: So, 27,000 likes so far, when did you decide that this was a must-see for you and that you wanted to amass those likes, you know, tie it to amassing likes before you decided to go?

DS: Well, for me, like, 10,000 was the number where I'm like, okay, if 10,00 people, like, engage with this post and like it, like, that's enough of an audience that, you know, there's an appetite for this to be, like, a full YouTube video. And, at the end of the day, it's not even about being profitable. It's about, I want to explore different events in the baseball world that are, like, worthwhile. And this, you know, that 10,0000-plus, like, mark kind of showed me that. It is kind of like that car wreck thing where it's like, you can't look away. But at the same time, it's, I think we can spin it to a positive thing where, you know it's kind of a win-win and it's a double header. So, it literally could be a win-win if everything goes great.

NK: [chuckling] Well, it's also, I mean, there's the, the perseverance aspect of it, right? Like any sports movie, it is about that underdog. There are two teams who happen to both be the major underdogs here. But the fact that they keep going says something as well.

DS: Oh yeah, definitely said something about their character. Like, the fact that they just keep showing up every day, putting in the work, knowing that they're, like, severe underdogs. And I think they, last year, like, Yeshiva got outscored by, like, 800 runs or 700 runs, like, combined on the season. And that just tells you that it's, like, okay, like, they just must love baseball. They're, they're putting work into it. They just, like, aren't getting the result they want.

NK: We reached out, our producer did, to both universities. Yeshiva declined to comment. Lehman College head baseball coach Chris Delgado sent us a statement and talked about how being on a losing streak is certainly tough, especially when it's so long, but talked about rebuilding the program to get a foundation of excellence and integrity, as he put it, and they're gonna prepare the way they always prepare for their opponent, and they gonna respect their competitors, play hard, and hopefully, you know, win in the end. I'm paraphrasing at the end there, but based on what you've seen so far, you'll have more data to work with once you see the game, obviously. But that rebuilding plan, what will it need to entail? Because you were a player, you used to be a pitcher.

DS: Yeah. Yeah. I was a pitcher and I was committed to a D2 school. And I see it where it's like, if you're not playing D1 baseball, you kind of get overlooked in general. 'Cause every recruit coming out of high school wants to play at the D1 level then the pro level. But, like, most people don't get to that point. But with these guys, like I said, I think funding is the big thing that's going to, like, start it where it's if you can get these kids when they're junior, seniors in high school and be like, hey, we're actually on a trend up, you know, we're investing money into our program. We may have had this big losing streak, but we're actually using that as a turning point. You know, no one wants to see anyone lose that long. Like, it's funny, but it's also at the same time if you're on those teams, those are people who want to win games. Like, it's just they're not getting their way every single time So again, hopefully it can be one of those things It's like, you know, a bad moment, flipped it into a positive moment where they can start rebuilding from it

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Dan. Thank you for this.

DS: Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CH: Dan Sarmiento is the founder of the baseball YouTube channel, "Enjoy The Show." We reached him in Burbank, California.

[slow, methodical piano and bass]

Amadou Bagayoko Obit

CH: Amadou Bagayoko once said, "When you live in this world, you have to make yourself useful." That wasn't an empty slogan. Mr. Bagayoko and his wife, Mariam Doumbia, made themselves incredibly useful. They represented Mali on stages around the world -- and worked in Mali on behalf of their fellow artists. They advocated for visually impaired and blind people like themselves. But, at the heart of it, they made themselves useful by making the music only they could make together. Amadou Bagayoko -- half of the duo Amadou and Mariam -- died on Friday. He was 70 years old. Now, if you'd never heard his last name until today, well, me neither. It might as well have been "and Mariam". He and his wife were inseparable, both as musicians and as a couple. They met as kids, at a school for the blind in Bamako, Mali -- Amadou had lost his sight due to cataracts and a corneal infection; Mariam had lost hers to untreated measles. He was a guitar virtuoso who could distinguish what kind of guitar someone was playing just from hearing a record. And she was a young singer with a beautiful voice. They performed together for the first time in 1976. And they were together ever since -- making three children, recording eight albums, and building a worldwide following. That's a lot to do with just one other person. But they clearly thrived on their collaboration, in all contexts. Amadou once summed up their relationship for an interviewer. He said, "We are here, we struggle, we succeed, we understand each other, that's it."

[bright piano]

Part 2: Tariffs: Oil Prices, Galapagos Tortoise Mommy

Tariffs: Oil Prices

Guest: Kevin Neveu

CH: It's not just stock prices that are tanking right now: immediately after U.S. President Donald Trump launched new worldwide tariffs, the price of oil took a dive. The West Texas Intermediate price has dropped by $10 USD a barrel -- from around $71 last week to around $61 today. And that's worrying news -- particularly for people working in Canada's oil and gas industry. Kevin Neveu is the president and CEO of Precision Drilling in Calgary. We reached him today in Houston, Texas.

NK: Kevin, from where you sit, what has it been like for you the past few days watching what has happened to the price of oil?

KEVIN NEVEU: You know, I think it's the uncertainty that's most troubling. We really don't have a good sense of where things are going right now, both with the U.S. tariff issues that certainly cause global uncertainty. And then, OPEC's rather surprise move to release more barrels to the market sooner than previously guided.

NK: How low do you think the prices might go?

KN: You know, I think today we're seeing a little bit of a bottoming of the price at around $60 USD. And I think that's a price which is probably lower than the industry and the global industry really needs. So, I think this is a bit of bottom, but we'll see, it's hard to predict for sure.

NK: The company you run, as we mentioned, is in Calgary. You happen to be in Houston right now. Is what is happening the reason why you were in Houston?

KN: Well, my company -- Precision Drilling -- is a global land drilling contractor. We drill for oil and gas in Canada, the United States, in the Middle East, in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. So, we have a pretty good view kind of from all markets about what the impacts are. But no, I split my time between Calgary and Houston, spending quite a bit of time in Houston.

NK: What kinds of conversations have you had there over the last stretch?

KN: I think there's a lot of uncertainty about the political winds in the U.S. right now and what the end game is. There's no question that the U.S. government wants to see interest rates come down. They want to see inflation come down, they're certainly looking for more revenue. But I think that the amount of uncertainty that's in the air right now is just difficult for anybody in business and probably anybody that has their retirement funds invested.

NK: How do you feel, knowing what you know -- and having that broad view of what is happening -- about what the U.S. administration is doing in terms of the economy?

KN: I do think that fundamentally behind all the noise, there are some plans right now that they're trying to execute. I don't think the high level of rhetoric or the methods they're using are maybe the most efficient, but it is fast. I mean, this is getting a lot of noise out in the market very quickly and then things will settle out. I think ultimately, the tariff issue will get resolved with something that works probably for both sides better than we're seeing right now today. And that should bring more stability. And then, I think we're back to a more normalized market down the road.

NK: Do you think that that normalized, more normalized market is coming? When you say down the road, how long is that road?

KN: That's too tough to handicap. I'd love to stay in the next few weeks or few months, but it could take longer. I think it does really highlight the needs for Canada to really be looking both east and west with energy transmission and for exports. I think that's a golden opportunity for Canada really to really get behind exporting our responsible energy around the world.

NK: That road is even longer than than you think it might be if prices remain low or even continue to drop. How long before you actually have to lay people off?

KN: You know, it really depends on the oil and gas companies that we work for. So, if they feel threatened by commodity prices and start reducing their budgets, then it usually means they slow down their drilling and completion operations, which means they need fewer of our rigs. Each one of our rigs employs just roughly 30 people in precision, but industry-wide, each rig creates about 150 to 200 jobs across the country in various roles.

NK: Have you had to lay people off before, or let people?

KN: Yeah, I've been in this business since 1982 and I've gone through far too many cycles like this, but it's gut-wrenching. You know, most of the rigs are staffed by young men and women. Likely it's one of their first jobs. They're probably just getting a family started. Maybe just bought a new vehicle or a house. And to be facing unemployment just when the industry looks so strong in Canada particularly, it's really tough on those new workers.

NK: Have you ever been on the receiving end of layoffs?

KN: You know, I was working in my, early my career back in the 1980s in a manufacturing facility in Red Deer, Alberta. And we went through seven rounds of layoffs and I was the last person standing because [chuckling] I was a recent university grad and I was effectively the lowest paid engineer in the office.

NK: When you were saying earlier, Kevin, about the need for a changing landscape here in Canada, and we've heard from other industries saying, you know, this is a moment to seize as well, lots of different sectors having this kind of conversation. But what would you like to see in Canada in your industry?

KN: Well, I'd certainly like to see more East-West inside the country trade for energy. I'd rather have oil and natural gas flowing through Canada to Eastern Canada, not through the U.S.

NK: Pipelines.

KN: Pipelines and just energy infrastructure in general, whether that's electrical, natural gas, or oil. Moving our energy inside Canada makes more sense than running it through a foreign nation. You know, it puts us under control of our own destiny, that's the first thing. Look, other countries that are quite responsible, like Norway. I think Canada could be a lot more like Norway. Norway is the largest exporter of energy in Europe and they manage a good climate agenda at the same time. Without hampering their industry, they're not putting artificial curbs in front of the oil and gas industry in Norway. The government, in fact, tries to find ways to incentivize Norwegian oil and gas development and then they export all of that energy to Europe. I think Canada can take a page from the regional book where the federal government stands behind the industry and really helps promote exports.

NK: there are many who disagree with the work you do and what you're saying there, as you know. Environmentalists in particular, those who are very concerned about the environment, who don't want to see more oil coming out of the ground whatever point we're at in history, or politics, or the situation with the economy. What would you say to them?

KN: You know, it's like a lot of issues that we all feel strongly about. I feel very strongly about the environment. My company's got a number of initiatives to reduce the emissions of what we do. So, I'm an environmentalist, like many of them are. But just good intentions and good wishes don't change the world economy. Eighty-two per cent of the world's energy relies on hydrocarbons. Some of those are extremely high carbon density, like coal, like wood burning, like even manure burning in Africa, things like that, that are really high carbon. Replacing that with low carbon oil or lower carbon natural gas makes so much sense that I'm not sure why we're not thinking about this in a logical manner, rather than this illogical just stop now. We can't stop now. It's not possible. We have to taper down. We've got to find replacements along the way. There's so much infrastructure required whether it's electricity, oil, or gas that you need to have a planned transition, not just a, you know, no more oil out of the ground. That doesn't work. I'd say it's like saying no more drugs. Well, yeah, of course, we want no more drugs, but stopping it takes a lot

NK: Thanks for this, Kevin. I appreciate your time.

KN: Thank you very much.

CH: Kevin Neveu is the head of Precision Drilling in Calgary. He's in Houston, Texas

[ambient electronic]

SOD: King Charles Veggie Orchestra

CH: Members of the British monarchy have a lot of duties. On any given day, I'm sure King Charles has a jam-packed schedule, in which he must deal with matters of national importance, as well as various symbolic functions, plus waving to people. It must have been a challenge to find time within all these royal responsibilities to play the flute, in the form of a carrot. To clarify, I mean, you know, to blow some air in a carrot that's been carved to be a flute. Well, this weekend -- just about a week since he was in hospital -- that's what King Charles did, at a royal reception at Windsor Castle. It was an event to celebrate music made in communities across the U.K. Three hundred and fifty musicians were in attendance -- including members of The Vegetable Orchestra. Last month, Nil talked to Matthias Meinharter, a member of that Orchestra. At the time, the group had just secured the Guinness World Record for performing the most concerts as an orchestra using instruments made out of vegetables. Here's part of what Mr. Meinharter told Nil about the challenges of producing music from produce:

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHIAS MEINHARTER: We used to improvise. That's the thing. Our instruments are always fresh. I mean, we have to build our instruments for every rehearsal, for every show, and also we have adapt to a region. Of course, the cuisine culture depends what vegetables we can buy on the market, and that's depending on our music. We have to use different vegetables in Canada, as in Europe, or in England. And also, we adapt to the season. It's a different quality in spring than in autumn.

NK: this all started as a joke in 1999. Was it you? Who said what to get this going?

MM: Yes. I'm one of, I was one of a group of friends, actually, we were invited to have a show, so we said, why not taking something that's really, really not meant to be a music instrument? So, is there some material you cannot make music out of? So, we thought of different things, but we were cooking at this time and then we realized vegetables, that's something impossible to make music of out of vegetables. So, we tried and it worked out. And actually, it was only meant for one concert, but people loved it so much it just continued.

CH: And it seems like King Charles liked the idea too, because he gave the carrot a go.

SOUNDCLIP

[the playing of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star…but like it sounds like school recorder days all over]

CH: That was King Charles, playing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star on a carrot, along with members of The Vegetable Orchestra. That's our Sound Of the Day.

[brittpop]

Galapagos Tortoise Mommy

Guest: Lauren Augustine

CH: Becoming a parent is a lifechanging milestone. Even if your life has already lasted around a century, and you're a tortoise. So, the Philadelphia Zoo is celebrating after a Galapagos Tortoise aptly named Mommy has given birth for the first time. A feat that's especially noteworthy not just because Mommy is an endangered species, but also because she's about 100 years old. Lauren Augustine is the director of herpetology and birds at the Zoo. We reached her in Philadelphia.

NK: Lauren, how are Mommy, Abrazzo, and the hatchlings doing?

LAUREN AUGUSTINE: They are doing great. Mommy and Abrazzo are in their normal habitat in the reptile and amphibian house here at the Philadelphia Zoo. And when the weather is nice, they're getting access to their outdoor yard this spring, which is fantastic. And we keep the hatchlings off exhibit in a temperature-controlled space so that we can make sure they're thriving, which they are. They're all eating and using their habitat as we expect.

NK: Are they behaving like first-time parents? [chuckling].

LA: No. Of course, we take the eggs after they're laid and incubate them artificially. So, Mommy and Abrazzo will be happily surprised if they meet their hatchlings. [both chuckle]

NK: And just, was it the first time that these two in particular made it with each other, or is it just the first they've been successful?

LA: So, Mommy's been with us at the Philadelphia Zoo since 1932, and she is a Western Santa Cruz Island Galapagos Tortoise. And so, we worked through our network of zoos here in North America to pair her up with the genetically ideal mate, which is Abrazzo, who came in 2020. So Abrazzo and Mommy met for the first time in 2022, and we've been tracking their behaviour, and their reproduction, and their introductions since then. And we got our first clutch of viable eggs in November of 2024, which resulted in these hatchlings.

NK: So, when she laid these eggs, what was that one like for you?

LA: It's amazing, particularly because she tends to nest at the end of the day. So, you know, the keepers are observing these animals. And she started digging. And it's just the end of the day, so you get that phone call where it's like, Mommy's digging a nest! And everyone just runs over to watch [NK chuckles] and make sure that we can identify the exact area once she's done so that we could then retrieve the eggs because she obviously covers them back up and hides the nest pretty well.

NK: I mean, had you given up that -- you and the team -- that this moment would ever come?

LA: No, I don't think so. I think we were very hopeful, especially based on early observations with Abrazzo and Mommy when they met. And we know that Abrazzo was a proven male. So, Abrazzo's had offspring before. So we were pretty hopeful that as long as we got Mommy cycling by introducing her to Abrazzo and kind of putting them in and out of the yard seasonally, that she would come online. And sure enough, she did.

NK: So, the planning, the strategizing, the patients paid off.

LA: Yes, I mean this is not a short-term situation with reptiles. We have to really go through usually seasonality and all kinds of triggers to get them to successfully reproduce. And so, we are just so excited that we got to see the whole process. You know, from the introductions, we did ethograms where we observed their behaviour and made sure that they were not just getting along, but obviously breeding and not maybe breeding too much, right? We had concerns early on that Abrazzo being 409 pounds was going to be a little bit much for Mommy who's 285 pounds in terms of how much attention he was actually going to give her.

NK: Oh boy!

LA: So we really paid attention to Mommy's stress levels, making sure that she had adequate resources and space to, you know, leave any interaction if she was uncomfortable, but it really went phenomenally well and she started laying eggs and just like we expected. So, it was amazing to see the things happen that you plan, right? You know, you can never be 100 per cent with animals.

NK: And it terms of their age, and Mommy in particular, is it normal for a tortoise to have hatchlings, to lay eggs at that age?

LA: Galapagos Tortoises can live over 150 years old. And so, for her to be reproducing is not completely abnormal. But what is abnormal is that this is the first time, right? She's a first-time mom at almost a hundred.

NK: She wanted to be sure, you guys. She just wanted to be sure. [both chuckle]

LA: Yeah, she just wanted to be sure. But for us to really secure her genetic lineage is just such an amazing accomplishment because she is an older animal and we are so fortunate to have gotten her paired up and get her to be this first-time mom this late in life. We're just thrilled.

NK: This is a career highlight for you as well.

LA: Oh yes, I mean this is one of the most amazing parts of herpetology -- or working with reptiles and amphibians -- is having that species that you have to figure out, and you have pair them up, and you go through such a laborious process, and be so patient and look at all the cues and all the things that spark reproduction. And then, for it to come to fruition is just really it's an amazing accomplishment for the team and the zoo.

NK: She was called Mommy from the get-go. She got that name when she came to the zoo in 1932. Was the goal, [chuckle] was this always the goal? Is that why they named her that, you think?

LA: Mommy? You know, I'm not sure. But, I mean, ever since I've been here and the team has been here, knowing that she is a wild-caught animal, one of 44 in our population here in North America, and the need for us to just preserve her genetic lineage, yes, it was a huge goal to make Mommy a mommy. [chuckle]

NK: And in terms of that lineage, and we talk about them being endangered, this particular type of tortoise, just tell us a little bit about how these hatchlings, these births, will help the efforts to change their status.

LA: So, as a critically endangered species and as a species from an island, they are, like, especially at risk from threats. And so, things like climate change or invasive species can really take a toll on the wild populations. And that's why it's so important to capture every genetic piece of diversity possible in the populations, both in the wild and in our populations here in human care. And so, capturing Mommy's genetic lineage here at the zoo is so important for us for, just for her and her species, but also for us to now be able to educate people about this species for another 100 years. So, it's just really a phenomenal step forward for the conservation of the species because now we can educate people, we can learn from the growth of these animals and study these animals and human care even better because now, we have not just 44, 48 Western Santa Cruz Island Galapagos Tortoises [NK chuckles] here in North America.

NK: Have you named these four yet?

LA: No, we have not.

NK: Okay. More to come on that then. Lauren, thank you for this. This was fun.

LA: Yeah, no, thank you so much.

CH: Lauren Augustine is the director of herpetology and birds at the Philadelphia Zoo.

[R&B]

FOA: ELLA ROBERTA STATUE

CH: Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah was nine years old when she died of an asthma attack in London, in 2013. In 2020, a coroner's inquiry found that high levels of nitrogen dioxide and matter pollution in the air she was breathing caused her death. And on Friday, a bronze statue was unveiled in her honour at Mountsfield Park, London. Last November, Nil spoke with Ella's mother, Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah, when she settled a lawsuit against the government, and received a formal apology for her daughter's death. She told Nil it had been a long journey.

SOUNDCLIP

ROSAMUND ADOO-KISSI-DEBRAH: I wish they had apologized much, much sooner. The coroner was very, very clear in his summing up. What he said is without the illegal levels of air pollution, not only would Ella not have got ill in the first place, she wouldn't have died on that fateful night where the air pollution then was at its highest. And it's a shame that it has taken the government four years to get here. But I'm glad they finally acknowledged it and they have apologized to myself and Ella's siblings.

NK: When you hear the mayor of London saying they're doing everything they can to clean up London's air and that they're going to work with the new government and that new government in and of itself, I mean, when you hear those words, do you feel that they're actually doing what they need to do?

RAKD: Absolutely not. I mean, we now in London have the biggest clean air zone, that was done by the mayor of London. But regarding government, we've been trying to push through a new Clean Air Act. They have not responded. I believe this is very, very important, not just for the UK, for Canada, India, all over. Campaigners need to try and get legislation into law so that they can hold successive governments accountable. We need to monitor air pollution and tell people about the air they are breathing. The problem, I'm afraid, is particulate matter, nitrogen dioxide, nox. They are all invisible. So therefore people do not know what they are breathing in. And this is part of the battle.

NK: I do want to speak about Ella as well a little bit more Rosamund, if you don't mind. I was looking at her picture, just her beautiful smile. What do you want our listeners to know about her?

RAKD: I want them to know she was incredibly bright. She died at nine, she had a reading age of 15. She played 12 instruments. And despite how ill she was when she wasn't in hospital she would have a normal life. But unfortunately, it was those severe asthma attacks that impeded on her life, but what happened to her can easily happen to any child anywhere due to dirty air.

CH: From Our Archives, that was Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah, speaking with Nil in November 2024. Last week, a bronze statue was unveiled in London to honour her late daughter Ella.

[elevator music]

Part 3: UHN Recruitment, Hidden Tudor Painting

UHN Recruitment

Guest: Brad Wouters

CH: If you're a young scientist feeling underappreciated -- especially if you're in the United States -- Toronto wants you to know it will appreciate you. The University Health Network is launching a $150 million campaign to recruit early-career medical researchers. And the network is especially interested in American researchers who are considering moving north as a result of the Trump administration's cuts to scientific funding and academic freedoms. The program is called the Canada Leads 100 Challenge -- and it has already secured the funding necessary to recruit 50 scientists, with a goal to reach 100 recruits. Brad Wouters is the executive vice president of science and research with the University Health Network. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Brad, a recruitment campaign of this size, and we're talking about tens of millions of dollars here -- I can't imagine it's easy to mount something like that, let alone mount it quickly. So, what should we make of the timing of all of this? Is it because of what is happening in the U.S.?

BRAD WOUTERS: Well, it is, I think, inspired by what's happening south of the border. There's two different components to that. One is reflection that Canada is doing in general about its future and where it can have economic success. And the medical and life science industry is certainly one of those, given the strength of the science and research organizations like UHN and like U of T here in Toronto. And the second is because of the cuts to science and the threats that many brilliant researchers are feeling. And they're thinking about other opportunities. And so, there is a unique opportunity and time here that Canada has to think about the opportunities for recruiting, for strengthening our research base.

NK: What was the moment that someone or you brought this up, that light bulb moment or a ha moment, whatever you want to call it, where this idea first came up?

BW: Well, I think the research community in Canada is strong, but it hasn't had a long trajectory of understanding of the ambition and the commitment to research longer term. And I think when we saw what happened in the United States, the cuts to science, the cuts to the supports to the universities, and when we the reaction of the universities – some of them closing PhD programs, some of the stopping hiring this year, some them even cutting staff. It means that there's an incredible talent pool available this year, and so we want it to act quickly. And I think it's also at a time where all of Canada has started thinking about where our economic future lies and the need to strengthen our own assets within the country. And one of those clear assets that is ripe for investment is our research and development.

NK: Peter Zanstra was on the show on Friday. I was speaking with him. He's the director of the University of British Columbia's School of Biomedical Engineering, and he'd written a piece in the Globe and Mail encouraging Canada to take advantage of this moment as well, and also talked about the obstacles that researchers in the United States are facing. I'll play a little bit of what he told us for you and our audience.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER ZANSTRA: I've talked to other researchers who say that the environment around specific topics to research or DEI -- or diversity inclusion -- have created environments which make them worried about research, and their ability to research diverse subjects or really recruit the number of people, the types of people that they may want in their labs. So for us in Canada, it really represents an opportunity.

NK: It's an opportunity but it's also chilling on the other hand, I think, for a lot of people to, to hear about that. And those doing research certainly are feeling that way. In your conversations with researchers, with scientists what are they relaying to you?

BW: Well, Peter is exactly right. There are many that are worried, that are concerned about what the commitments to science will be, and particularly for those that have been attracted to the United States from elsewhere in the world, are feeling concerns around their long-term future there. I've heard similar kinds of messages from colleagues, some of them Canadians that have gone to the U.S., others that have come from other parts of world. And many of those people are now reconsidering that. And that's where the opportunity lies, both in the early career phase where new scientists are thinking about where their futures are going to be. Science is a global endeavor and many of them will consider other options. And there's an, you know, incredible opportunity to those people to Canada now.

NK: The scientists that that this money will help recruit -- fifty of them, as our listeners heard -- what kinds of research do you think that they will be doing that bringing this talent will help fast track?

BW: Well, there's two parts to that. I think the first is in the areas where we're very active in the research area at UHN, and that really stems from the patients that we serve. We have a very large cancer research program, transplant program, cardiovascular program, neuroscience program, rehabilitation program. So, we span a very larger area of health, and we're active in research in all those areas. In the other areas, there are particular areas of science that may be, you know, threatened in the U.S. and elsewhere, in areas of infectious disease, in vaccine development, in mRNA technologies, areas of lots of excitement for future therapies that there may be a particular cohort of talented people looking at other opportunities.

NK: And when do you expect that these recruits will arrive?

BW: We'll be starting that process immediately, and we expect to recruit 50 of those new scientists over the next six months or so.

NK: I imagine that these teams and these researchers, there can be supportive environments, certainly, but these are also competitive fields. So, what would you say to scientists and researchers who are already here, who might be wondering all of this money could help what we're doing as well?

BW: Yeah, there's no doubt that, you know, this represents a, you know, a new bold initiative. We think there's an enormous opportunity for Canada to strengthen its research and development and to build a life sciences ecosystem that starts with research, but includes company formation, commercialization, and creation of great new jobs here in Canada.

NK: There's such a shift happening in so many sectors across Canada in this moment, as we've been talking about. Do you think that we've been too slow in these kinds of things in the past?

BW: There's no doubt we have. The way I would phrase it is I don't think our ambition has been high enough. We have a lot of strength in Canada. We have great universities, you know, amongst the world's best in world rankings. You know, so we've got super talent. We've often published and delivered on science, you know, above our weight. And so, we have a huge number of kind of pieces in our advantage, great institutions, great talent production, and great cities, and a great country to live in. So, you know, we have all the ingredients to make this successful. What we need to do is raise our ambition.

NK: What are the benchmarks, you know, for success? If we were to speak again, and I hope we do in a year, let's say, maybe in research terms, that might be too soon, but how will you measure success? What does success look like once this project is in full bloom?

BW: Well, short-term, a year from now would mean that we've got that talent in place. And I would like to see a commitment at all levels of government for a national strategy and a significant new investment to fuel the research and the talent that's here and continue for Canada to be a beacon for attracting the best and the brightest. Long-term we want to see the payoff that research and development can deliver for society, both on new medicines, new treatments, but also on creating new industries, great jobs, biomanufacturing, and all the benefit that goes along with it.

NK: Brad, I appreciate your time. Thanks for this.

BW: Thanks so much.

CH: Brad Wouters is the executive vice president for science and research at the University Health Network. He's in Toronto.

[winding instrumental]

Hidden Tudor Painting

Guest: Richard Arkell

CH: Thinking of redecorating your bedroom, and not sure what to do with the walls? Should you go wallpaper? Should you go paint? Or -- and this is all the rage these days -- should you go with a medieval painting of weird creatures, supernatural foliage, and a dog's head? I mean, when I say it's all the rage, it's big with two people: Richard and Jen Arkell, the owners of a former Tudor lodge in Cumbria, England. When they removed the plaster from the walls of their bedroom recently, they unveiled something much rarer than exposed brick: wall paintings dating back to the 16th century. Richard Arkell made the discovery. We reached him at home in Carlisle, England.

NK: Richard, you're in your bedroom right now looking at the walls. What do you see?

RICHARD ARKELL: Well, in the centre of the wall, we've got a large stone surround Tudor fireplace with a big chimney going up. And then on either side of the fireplace, we have got the panels of wall paintings. And the best preserved and the most extensively extant panel is on the right hand side where we've got, oh, it's very busy. We've got in the centre an elephant or a horse with a castle on its back. This was quite a common medieval image. Unfortunately, we've lost the detail of the head, so we can't quite tell whether it's an elephant or a house, but both were used actually in these images. And it has a castle in its back, so it's an interesting combination.

NK: And you've had some time, Richard, to take in these fantastical historic scenes, but that moment when the plaster first started coming down, I mean, renovations can be exciting and stressful, and you don't know what's behind there, and it's often something bad wherever you live.

RA: Absolutely. Absolutely.

NK: When this is what is revealed, what did you think?

RA: Yeah, well, we just revealed initially there was just a very small portion. And that was because plaster was failing in a particular spot and it was more or less falling off. So, and it just happened to reveal a rabbit, which, and it sits in a shield. From that point, obviously that was a magical moment, but we knew as soon as we came across something like that we would have to stop and get the appropriate consents from, through, which would have to be endorsed by Historic England. Because it's a listed building. We can't do any work we like to.

NK: Even under less historic circumstances it can be difficult, I know, in the U.K. to get permissions to do things. So, once you realized how special this all was, who did you get in touch with? And what did they tell you?

RA: Well, first of all, we contacted wall paintings conservator Andrea Kirkham, who's done some work on this house before. We needed a sort of technical report from Andrea looking at the methodology that she would use to uncover this wall. We were going to be taking off plaster -- two layers of plaster, actually -- that dated back to Georgian times, so that in a sense was quite historic itself.

NK: What were you able to learn, Richard, about who lived there?

RA: Well, we were able to learn that there was certainly more to be discovered. Andrea didn't, just took off a little bit more, actually, to get a feel for what was underneath, and sufficient for her to write a report that was really justifying the benefits of removing this Georgian plaster to unveil the greater benefit of seeing these images that date back to the origins of the house in the 16th century.

NK: Even your home, I mean the fact that your home has a name, The Ashes, it has a historical designation already, or a listing.

RA: Sure.

NK: So, you had some idea. But I wonder, this is in some ways a best-case scenario what can be revealed behind plaster, certainly as we said. But is it a burden in any way? I mean, it's a responsibility certainly in terms of caring for it and preserving it. But in terms what you wanted to do with the house, cost and limitations, is there a part of this that is a burden?

RA: Well, sure, if you do own a historic building like this that's listed as the term is here, and there are gradings for these listings, then there certainly is a burden of responsibility, which can be quite onerous. It certainly restricts you from altering the place beyond a certain point. I mean, Historic England are normally sympathetic to alterations that are designed to accommodate, you know, the changing patterns of, of life as it were, of modern life. But yeah, the, I mean, we regard it, actually, as a great advantage, a great privilege. But yes, some people do find it irksome.

NK: Will the public be able to see it at all? Or photographs will be taken, perhaps, and displayed somewhere?

RA: Yeah, there's quite a lot of photography out there at the moment. Historic England have a press release out, which has got some very nice photography on it. And there'll be stuff on the web associated with the listing of The Ashes. So that's going to be there. And, you know, we've been featured in the local newspapers and so forth.

NK: Do you like all the attention?

RA: [chuckling] For a short time, it's absolutely fine. And we've always been available to welcome specialist individuals or local groups with a particular interest in the history of the area. And we'll continue to do that.

NK: Richard, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RA: It's a pleasure, Nil.

CH: That was Richard Arkell. He's one of the owners of a home in which a rare Tudor painting was found. We reached him in Carlisle, England.

[hip-hop]

Angry Golfer

Grey's Anatomy and a glass of red, and another glass of red. But for Ryan McCormick, typical methods like that haven't been working. He's a golfer on the US developmental tour -- the Korn Ferry Tour. And he hasn't been having a good time on the course this year. So on Friday, he debuted a new accessory he hoped would help: tape on his mouth.

SOUNDCLIP

RYAN MCCORMICK: I mean, at this point, I've tried about everything. I've read a lot of books. I've talked to people. I'm just too angry on the golf course. So, I have run out of ideas. And I thought about the tape thing a couple weeks ago. And yeah, so just unfortunately came down to that today. I was hoping maybe it would help me. I can't say that it did or didn't, but yeah. I don't know, it certainly makes you breathe. I mean, you know, I felt like Bane, like in Batman, just like muzzle myself. I mean I'm not like proud, but you know I don' wanna create an experience for my playing partners that's not, you know, fair. And, you know, it's not fair to me either or other people. So, I'm having a tough time, and that was my solution today.

REPORTER: How did you communicate with your caddy?

RM: [chuckling] Mostly just writing down the numbers. I would just point and ask him for a read sometimes. Yeah, it made things a lot simpler, I'll tell you that.

The Crown, to his upcoming depiction of Dumbledore in HBO's new Harry Potter series, to the role for which he won a Laurence Olivier Award just last night -- starring as Roald Dahl in a play about the British author's life. So, quick reminder: Mr. Lithgow remains an American actor. And like many Americans these days, he seemingly felt the need to apologize for that in his acceptance speech yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN LITHGOW: I want to thank you, and I want thank all of you for welcoming me and my wife, Mary, so thoroughly to England. It's not always easy to welcome an American into your midst. [laughter] And at this particular moment, it's probably a little more complicated than usual. [laughter] But for me, and for Mary, and for all of our countrymen and countrywomen, I want to assure you that the special relationship is still firmly intact. [clapping] You know, about 23 years ago when I was a Lambda student, I saw Laurence Olivier playing the Captain in Dance of Death at the Old Vic, one of his last great performances toward the end of his career. That was such an astounding performance. It stayed with me ever since. I think I have thought about him, stolen from him, in just about every part I've ever played on stage. I never met Lord Olivier. This just might be the beginning of a very special friendship. Thank all of you, thank you so much. [clapping].

CH: American actor John Lithgow, accepting an Olivier Award last night for his work in Giant -- a play about the life of British writer, Roald Dahl. In a backstage interview, Mr. Lithgow described Donald Trump's second presidency as, "a pure disaster" and "really disheartening." But he reluctantly admitted that "bad times create good art." I don't know if Titanique is precisely the kind of art Mr. Lithgow had in mind, but its American creators won for Best New Entertainment or Comedy Play, for their jukebox musical featuring the music of Canada's own Céline Dion. In his speech, co-creator Tye Blue thanked the Society of London Theatre for recognizing, quote, "three scrappy Americans" and joined Mr. Lithgow in celebrating the power of art in our times.

SOUNDCLIP

TYE BLUE: You know, we started writing this in Los Angeles. We were so broke and so sad. And we just needed something to be happy about. And so, we got together on Monday nights at Connie's apartment, had some cheap sauvignon blanc, and just tried to make each other laugh. That is so important in these times right now. And I think the success of Titanique is a testament to the power of unbridled collaboration, and friendship, and the importance of spreading joy in the world, and just the tenacity that it takes to, to really stick it out in this business. I would be remiss to walk off this stage without thinking our North Star, the queen of all queens, Celine Dion.

CH: Titanique co-creator Tye Blue, accepting the Olivier Award for Best New Entertainment or Comedy Play.

The AIH Transcript For April 7, 2025

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