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The AIH transcript for April 29, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Fourth time's the charm. In a remarkable turnaround, the Liberals secure another mandate. Former cabinet minister and re-elected MP Patty Hajdu tells us how the party plans to tackle the big challenges in front of the country -- and to the south of us.

CH: Access denied. A teacher in Nunavik was unable to vote at her polling station yesterday; she tells us that, as an Inuk woman, that wasn't just frustrating, it was a betrayal.

NK: CPC TBD. The lone Conservative MP elected in Nova Scotia says his party needs to take some time to figure out what's next -- including what to do with a leader who lost his own seat.

CH: Party down. One of just seven newly elected NDP MPs tells us the New Democrats will keep fighting for their values -- even if they have to do it without official party status.

NK: Should have known when it offered its services probe bono. It was supposed to go to Venus, but a Russian space probe is about to come hurtling back to Earth -- after glitching and spending 53 years orbiting the Earth instead.

CH: And...screech for the stars. [NK chuckles] A Danish woman who just clinched the top prize at Europe's pre-eminent seagull impersonation championships will treat us to some of her most piercing shrieks.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday Edition. Radio that's glad she put on her big gull pants.

[theme]

Part 1: Liberals: Patty Hajdu, Conservatives: Chris D'entremont, NDP: Heather McPherson

Liberals: Patty Hajdu

Guest: Patty Hajdu

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: I have a question. Who's ready? [cheers] Who's Ready? Who's ready to stand up for Canada with me? [more cheers].

CH: Prime Minister Mark Carney celebrating his party's victory last night. And he has a lot to get ready for. While his Liberals have secured a fourth mandate, they came up a few seats short of a majority. So, he will likely have to govern with the help of other parties. And now, a new MP, a new leader, and new politician will have to tackle all the challenges facing the country -- chief among them, a single person: U.S. President Donald Trump. Patty Hajdu is a newly re-elected Liberal MP and a longtime cabinet minister. We reached her in Thunder Bay, Ontario.

NK: Patty Hajdu, I certainly don't have to tell you about the kinds of challenges that this country and this government is going to be facing. Do you feel that the Liberals and Mark Carney are ready for what lies ahead?

PATTY HAJDU: Well, I think we are ready. We are ready for the foreseeable challenges, and I would say that we're quite seasoned and ready for unforeseeable challenges. And I have served as a Liberal cabinet minister for the past nine-and-a-half years, and they can tell you that, obviously, there are optimistic, forward-looking things that you attempt to achieve as a government and we have been able to achieve over the last nine-and-half years. But I would also say that there are challenges and shocks, economic shocks, social shocks, that to any government. And I think the seasoned experience that Mark Carney brings to the Liberal Party as the leader of the Liberal party and the prime minister now, as well as the seasoned team, as well as some new incumbents and incredible experience, means that we're quite ready.

NK: And I'll take that word shock that you used just a moment ago. With all honesty, if you think back to Patty Hajdu from just a few months ago, was that Patty Hajdu, would she be shocked that you're in this position, or were you expecting to be an opposition MP today?

PH: Well, you know, absolutely. I mean, this is the world of politics. Just when you think you know the story that's being written, things change really dramatically. And I would say that, you now, prior to the former leader, Justin Trudeau, stepping down, things were not looking too good for the Liberals. But I will also say this, in my own riding, the conversations that I was having with voters that support me as a candidate, as an individual, people were terrified of what a government led by Pierre Poilievre would look like. And that's their words, not mine, terrified, afraid, horrified. And so, you know, four months ago, it didn't look too good for us. But we selected a new leader and I think we're in a completely different world today.

NK: A lot of the polls, as you know, were predicting a decisive majority for the Liberals. On the issue of divisions in this country, Mark Carney said in that victory speech that he wants to put an end to those divisions and work for everyone. How do you see that playing out, given how the numbers have come down in the end? How tricky might it be for the Liberals to govern effectively?

PH: Well, I think we'll have to wait to see how things settle out over the next days and weeks. I think there are a number of ways that the prime minister can reach across the aisle and work with a variety of different either individual members of Parliament on issue by issue cases, or looking for more formal ways to work with parties that might include deeper conversations about ranges of ways we can support each other and the interests of Canadians. I think that there are more commonalities among some members of Parliament than you think. Usually within every party, there are members of Parliament that you can find some common ground. And I actually think that's very important work. So, I think Mr. Carney's right to speak about how we do that work. And, of course, in a minority government it becomes all that much more essential in order to continue to govern. I think Canadians have no interest in going back to the polls immediately. And so, that will take all of us working together to make sure that we can craft good laws, but also that we are using the resources of Canada to build up our economy and our community.

NK: The to-do list is certainly long and time-sensitive. At the top of it, of course, is what you were talking about before, the issue of the United States, Donald Trump's tariffs, the threats to sovereignty. Mark Carney and the U.S. President agreed to open talks after this vote. We don't know the timeline, of course, but how is Mark Carney going to avoid an escalation or even a full-scale trade war?

PH: Well, I think, listen, I think that Mr. Carney has the wisdom and the ability to deal with complex relationships and complex economic shock, and he's demonstrated that. I can't predict exactly how those conversations are going to go. And, you know, listen, I think that he's already had a series of initial conversations with the president and with other leaders around the world. I will also say this, I know that he has been very clear that the time has come that we end our overreliance on trade with the United States as the primary solution to our own economic growth. And that we do need to diversify our markets across the world. And we do to ensure that Canadian companies can compete and sell their goods and services to other countries. And so, I'm sure that will be a key component of the work that we can do together.

NK: There were some successes for the Conservatives, as you know, Patty Hajdu, they increased their vote share. What would you say to voters who voted for the Conservatives, wanted a change, they wanted to see Pierre Poilievre become the next prime minister of Canada, and agreed with things that were in the Conservative Party's platform? What would say to them, to those, and many in Western Canada as well, who feel disconnected from this decision, and don't see unification and cooperation?

PH: I mean, listen, this is a hard day for anyone who's been on the losing side of an election. I mean democracy is not easy. It is not straightforward and it's not consensual. And that is a challenge in a democratic system, is that every time there's an election there is winners and losers. There are candidates that put their name forward. There are leaders that not only lose the election, but in some cases, as Mr. Poilievre did, lose their seats. But what I can say is as a member of Parliament and as a minister, having served as a minister, my job is to represent all my constituents. And so, although I know that, you know, in my case, 45 per cent of Thunder Bay-Superior North didn't vote for me, they voted for another party, I will continue to serve in a way that makes sure that I can meet their needs. That's what keeps our democracy strong. And look, there's another election possibly sooner than four years away.

NK: [chuckling] Already?!

PH: And that's the time to test whether or not Canadians can still support a Liberal government. But in the interim, the government and members of Parliament, I believe, have the responsibility to serve all our constituents in a way that respects their dignity and their right to that representation.

NK: Patty Hajdu, I appreciate your time, please take care.

PH: Thank you very much. Take care.

CH: Patty Hajdu is a Liberal MP who's held numerous cabinet positions. She's in Thunder Bay, Ontario.

[standing bass!!!]

Conservatives: Chris D'entremont

Guest: Chris D'entremont

CH: Last night did not go as planned for the Conservative Party. Despite some historic gains, the party was not able to fend off the Liberals -- most notably in the Ottawa-area riding Pierre Poilievre had held for more than 20 years. He lost in an upset to Liberal Bruce Fanjoy. That loss will complicate his return to Ottawa. But in the early hours of this morning, Mr. Poilievre wanted to celebrate his party's wins.

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE POILIEVRE: We have much to celebrate tonight. We've gained well over 20 seats. We got the highest share of vote. [cheering and clapping] Our party has received since 1988. That said, we are cognizant of the fact that we didn't quite get over the finish line yet. We know that change is needed, but change is hard to come by. It takes time. It takes work. And that's why we have to learn the lessons of tonight so that we can have an even better result the next time that Canadians decide the future for the country. [clapping and cheering].

CH: Conservative Party Leader Pierre Poilievre, speaking early this morning. Chris D'entremont was re-elected in the newly-named riding of Acadie-Annapolis, and is the only Conservative MP elected in Nova Scotia. We reached him in Belleville.

NK: Chris D'entremont, would you describe last night as a success?

CHRIS D'ENTREMONT: It was a success for my constituents, for our team, who worked really hard over the last 36 days to get our message out. Overall, for the Nova Scotian members, a couple of good friends with Stephen Ellis and, of course, Rick Perkins, losing their seats makes it a little not quite as fun as I expected the night to be.

NK: What do you think your party -- and specifically leader, Pierre Poilievre -- could and should have done differently to meet that moment when the Trump factor became such an overarching theme in this election?

CD: I don't know what else we could have done. I mean, maybe we could've had a little quicker reaction to it. You know, it was really on the minds of electors as we were going door to door. We could've have had some better, easier messaging for it. The other thing that could have happened, you know, we didn't get a visit from Pierre until later into the campaign. You know, maybe we should have been on that earlier, that earlier run so that we could sort of solidify and make Nova Scotians understand how important the Atlantic is to us.

NK: Pierre Poilievre is on track to lose his seat. He said he would want to stay on, we heard last night in his speech. What would you like to see happen next?

CD: Well, I think we need to get back to Ottawa and sit as a caucus and sort of review what went right, what went wrong, understand what the continued leadership is going to be. Quite honestly, it's going to difficult to question or keep government to account from outside of the House of Commons. Is it going and finding another riding somewhere in Canada and calling a by-election? I don't think that's fair, I believe, for the person that just ran for a year trying to get elected in their area. But that's a discussion, I think, that we need to have as a caucus as we go back to Ottawa.

NK: Were you concerned, or are you concerned now? You know, Mr. Poilievre's critics will point out that he seemed too thematically aligned with Donald Trump and some of the messaging, some of the language, some of the policies presented during this campaign. Do you expect a shift away from that, a more clear delineation?

CD: I think we still need clear delineation, absolutely. I mean, but let's not forget, you know, prior to the election, the Liberal party was running ads against Pierre, trying to paint him like Trump. So, you, know, I think they were just more effective at getting that message or painting that picture. So, we just need to, you now, reset a little bit, go back, lick the wounds a little because it's going to take a little bit of time to truly absorb the loss. But also, like I said, there is gains that we did pick up across the country.

NK: The Conservatives did take a number of traditionally NDP seats. They broke through the 905 region, which is the suburban areas surrounding Toronto.

CD: Exactly.

NK: But it's not just the Liberal campaign ads, as you said, there's also Conservative provincial leaders, Doug Ford being one of them, the premier of Ontario. What kind of a role did that lack of an endorsement or even communication have, do you think? What kind of an impact did that have on your campaign?

CD: Yeah, that's a tough one, too. Because we've had the same illusion here in Nova Scotia with Premier Houston. But I do need to say, like, the volunteers, the people in the background, a lot of the MLAs all work on our campaigns. So, I think we do need to do a bit of work there on making sure those partnerships with our provincial partners is there. You know, we used to be all a Progressive Conservative Party but there just seems to be always that question of whether we're actually the same kind of conservative? And it really doesn't matter what kind of conservative you are.

NK: And to be specific, Premier Houston released a video just last week. It could be described as a campaign-style video. He said, my name is Tim Houston, I'm a Nova Scotian in it. And that was just before Pierre Poilievre visited your province. But what did you make of that ad? Do you think between

Doug Ford and Tim Houston, we're seeing some plays for the leadership federally?

CD: I don't think so. I think they're very focused on their provinces and making the country as unified as they possibly can. Maybe the timing of some of these things wasn't perfect. But like I said, we all work together. It just seems at times things are being misconstrued by others of what division may be. So, when I hear certain pundits say, well, that's this or that's that, I don't put a whole lot of faith [chuckling] in what they're saying there.

NK: But when a Conservative premier doesn't, has a meeting or a lunch with the Liberal federal leader at the time, Mark Carney, and doesn't do the same with Pierre Poilievre, that's not a pundit, that, I mean, what would you take away from that? I might feel slighted if I was the other candidate.

CD: I'm not going to get too much [NK chuckles] into what happens in Ontario, but I just know what happens here. You know, I spent 17 years as a Progressive Conservative MLA in the legislature, worked directly with Mr. Houston, know many of his team members. We are all the same colour of blue, so we just need to figure out a better way to message these things that when they're in an election mode that we stay out of their hair, and that when we're in election mode, they should be staying out of our hair, or at the very least working on each other's campaigns to make sure we all succeed.

NK: And that's the tricky thing is, you know, whichever party we're talking about, when there is a time of reassessment, potentially rebuilding, the post-mortem on a night like last night, that that kind of disagreement or infighting potentially can take away the bigger picture of what you say you're trying to do. So, how are you bracing for that and the return to Ottawa under these conditions?

CD: Well, under these conditions now, it's going to be, again, to try to find those partnerships. I mean, the issues here are a little different than what maybe many of the areas across the country, but we are sort of in a discussion around primary resources. Our lobster fishery is being affected dramatically. So, we need to try and pull a number of, I would say, smart people together to try to figure out what that challenge is going to be. That's the kind of thing that I take out of this vote split and this division that we've seen amongst the parties is that we really should be working together on some issues. And I know in my area that common issue is the fishery.

NK: Chris D'entremont, thank you very much for your time. Please take care.

CD: Have a lovely evening.

CH: Chris D'entremont was re-elected as the Conservative MP of Acadie-Annapolis. We reached him in Belleville, Nova Scotia.

[ambient]

NDP: Heather McPherson

Guest: Heather McPherson

CH: It's been a difficult 24 hours for the New Democrats. Last night's Liberal victory came in large part at the expense of the NDP. And speaking to volunteers in Burnaby, an emotional Jagmeet Singh was forced to concede not just the party leadership, but also his own seat in Parliament.

SOUNDCLIP

JAGMEET SINGH: I often speak about something my mom taught me, it's this Sikh teaching of Chardhikala. And this is something fundamental to who I am. And it means the words break down, chardhi means rising and hikala means spirits. And it's something that is, it captures a big part of who I'm. And it is the idea that in the fight for justice, in the for fairness, in a fight that we fight, we want to have optimism in the face of struggle. We want to a defiant optimism. It's like this eternal resilience. And this is the spirit that I carry tonight.

CH: Outgoing NDP leader and MP Jagmeet Singh. Ever the optimist -- even in the face of an election that saw New Democrats lose official party status and be reduced from 24 seats to just seven. Heather McPherson won one of those seats. She's the newly re-elected NDP MP for Edmonton Strathcona. And that's where we reached her.

NK: Heather McPherson, I know people are congratulating you. How is that word, congratulations, sitting with you today?

HEATHER MCPHERSON: Well, you know, I know it's very hard today. It was hard to see so many of my excellent colleagues not get re-elected. I think of Blake Desjarlais in Edmonton. I think of, you, know, Matthew Green, some of my colleagues across the country that weren't reelected, and it's hard.

NK: The polls were signaling this. Former leader Tom Mulcair, you and others will remember, wrote an op-ed for Bloomberg News back in March and said, quote, if you can't seriously say you're going to form a government that can take on Trump, then get out of the way, unquote. Do you think, ultimately, that the NDP should have gotten out of the way here?

HM: No, absolutely not. You know, we don't, Canadians don't want an American-style, two-party system. You know, our democracy is stronger and better when we have a strong NDP. You know, the fact that the NDP holds the government accountable, makes sure that the government of the day delivers on the promises that they make to Canadians, you know, You just have to look at our last Parliament, where we were able to get dental care for Canadians. There is a real reason why it's so important for our democracy, so important for our country, that we don't devolve into a two-party system. You know, it's divisive that way. It doesn't help Canadians, it doesn't build cohesive cooperation, it just echoes what we see in the United States. And I don't think Canadians want that here.

NK: So, to what do you attribute the results for your party then?

HM: Like I said, it was a disappointing result for us, but I do want to say as well that there's a number of things that I think happened. I mean, this was an election of fear. Canadians were voting because they were afraid. And I understand that, and what Donald Trump is doing in the United States is frightening for so many of us. And so, I think people were voting out of fear and they were saying, well, we've got to do this to stop these guys. And I think that's not a great way for a democracy to go forward. You know, you want people to be voting for the representative that is strongest to match their values, to fight for them at every table, and I think we need to look at our electoral system. You look at me as the sole New Democrat in Alberta, despite the fact that, you know, a huge percentage of Albertans voted for a progressive representative and they don't, they get a huge swath of blue in this province.

NK: What do you think your party -- and specifically your party's soon-to-be-former leader, Jagmeet Singh -- could, and should have, done differently to seize on this moment and convince more voters that he could be a better alternative?

HM: So, first of all, I just want to say, I think that history will remember Jagmeet Singh as bringing forward the biggest expansion of our healthcare system in a generation. And I am so proud of what he was able to achieve, so proud what the NDP were able to achieve. And I know that Jagmeeth has always put Canadians first, he's always put the need of Canadians. You know, very easily, we could have brought the government down in October. But we wouldn't have had a pharmacare framework, we wouldn’t have had dental care, all of these programs that we fought so hard for for Canadians wouldn't have been in place. And Pierre Poilievre said he would cut them. So, you know, we could have done some political shenanigans, absolutely. But that's not why New Democrats are in Ottawa.

NK: But during the campaign, what do you think the party or Jagmeet Singh did not do to connect? I completely understand all of the other forces at play. They're impossible to ignore, certainly. But there has to be some assessment and post-mortem discussion, right?

HM: And I think absolutely there needs to be a discussion about what the campaign could have done or should have done differently. I think a lot of this was out of our hands because of what the ballot box question was. But I will also say, you know, it's been less than a day. And, for me, right now, I'm grieving the loss of some really remarkable members of Parliament. In the long run, I think that New Democrats will come back. We always do. We'll keep fighting. You know, you don't become a New Democrat in Alberta because you wanted the easy way. So, I'm good at fighting, I'm happy to keep fighting for my constituency and for Canadians. And I know that the other six members of Parliament that are going to Ottawa with me are some of the fiercest allies Canadians have in the country. And so, yeah, I'm looking forward to working with all of them, with all six and myself, to make sure that things get done. And making sure that the Liberals follow through on the whole bunch of the promises that they made to Canadians.

NK: In these difficult moments for you and your party, I know it's early, as you said, so I suspect I might know the answer, but when you spoke with The Current this morning and my colleague Matt Galloway, you said you hadn't thought about taking on the party leadership in general, or whether you would even consider it. Has that changed throughout this day?

HM: I think you know the answer. [both chuckle] And frankly, you know, Jagmeet has been, he's been such a mentor for many of us. He's the only leader that I've ever had as a member of Parliament. And I know I want to make sure that everybody's talking to each other, that we're sitting down at the caucus, that were having some conversations about what the future looks like for the NDP and we'll make decisions like we always do together.

NK: What will you be looking for?

HM: You know, it's how to use the voices of seven MPs to continue this fight. We've got far less resources now. We've far less people on that bench. So, we have to find ways to continue to fight for Canadians. We've gotta find ways to be heard, to make sure that people are being protected and being taken care of, and that's gonna be different. So, we're gonna have those conversations and see what that all looks like as we go forward.

NK: Heather McPherson, I appreciate your time. Take care.

HM: Thank you so much. You have a wonderful day.

CH: Heather McPherson is the newly re-elected NDP MP for Edmonton Strathcona. We reached her in Edmonton.

[ambient]

Tbay ‘School of Rock’

CH: It's one of the great film masterpieces of the 21st century so far: a struggling guitarist who is also a selfish jerk pretends to be a music teacher, turns a class of students into a vibrant rock band, and learns as much from them as they do from him. A lot more, actually. Hence the title, School of Rock. And starting next week, a stage version of that 2003 movie will come to life on stage in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Close to 100 students at St. Patrick High School have been working for months to prepare the musical. Samuel Giardino is playing Jack Black's character, Dewey Finn, and Emily Gernat is playing Summer Hathaway, the ambitious band manager. They talked to the CBC about their roles, and the experience of building the show.

SOUNDCLIP

SAMUEL GIARDINO: I won't lie, it feels good, I've never really had a role in the past where I've just been able to let loose, really just give it all, but this role is really just, it's something else, you know? Because, really, trying to also emulate how Jack Black is, you don't realize it until you actually try it, but it's a challenge and it's so much fun. Literally, I'd say it's such a great time.

EMILY GERNAT: I'm Summer Hathaway. She's the band manager. She really likes getting her own way, but she's also about female empowerment and just being a boss. It's such an iconic show and role. I feel like we already kind of knew the gist of it before it was even announced. When School of Rock was announced, we knew, we knew the show.

SG: It was very exciting. When I first heard that, like, School of Rock, I was like, no way! Like, it's Jack Black! And my mom, like, I can even remember, coming up to me and being like, you have to try and go for him. You have to give it a shot. And so, like, all the band members up here are playing their instruments alongside a lot of the songs. And it's also the first time I believe in Thunder Bay that there has been, like, a band on stage and a pit band as well. So, it's just awesome to be part of that. You know, it kind of feels like we're making history a little bit.

EG: When everyone is giving 100 per cent, you just feel it in the room. We just feed off of each other so much and it's so much fun. It's so many people of different interests coming together to make one thing and it really just shows the beauty of teamwork.

CH: Emily Gernat and Samuel Giardino -- two of the leads in St. Patrick High School's production of School of Rock in Thunder Bay, talking to CBC reporter Gord Ellis at a rehearsal.

[industrial]

Part 2: Nunavik Polls, Seagull Impersonator

Nunavik Polls

Guest: Kayla Meeko

CH: Geographically, it's Quebec's largest riding. And on the election results map today, it's a gigantic patch of red. Mandy Gull-Masty, the former Grand Chief of the Cree Nation Government in Quebec, has taken the riding of Abitibi-Baie-James-Nunavik-Eeyou from the Bloc Québécois. But even before the results came in, one thing was clear: not everyone who wanted to have a say in that race did. Voters in multiple villages in Nunavik have told the CBC about problems at their polling stations, including early closures. Elections Canada told us today that it's -- quote -- "closely examining what happened and will have more information when we are able to gather more facts." Unquote. Kayla Meeko says she's made a complaint to Elections Canada, following her experience yesterday. She's in Quaqtaq.

NK: Kayla, for many people right across the country, today is about taking stock at the end results of the democratic process. You were not able to engage in that process and vote yesterday as you had planned. So, how are you feeling today?

KAYLA MEEKO: It's really disappointing, honestly. Yesterday was a really frustrating day for me, and not only me, and a lot of the people here in our community. So today, I'm trying to make time to talk about it and to put it out there so that other people can know about what happened.

NK: And hopefully, prevent it from happening in future elections. If we go back to yesterday, walk us through what your original voting plan was.

KM: I work as a Grade Three, Four teacher here in Quaqtaq, but I'm also the president of the board of directors for our local daycare. And as a board, we had to make a decision about when to close to give three consecutive hours for our employees to go vote, as is their legal right. So, the centre director of the day care was informing us that our local polling station would close at 6:30. So, we were making the decision that our day care would close at 3:30, so I went on with my day. I was also thinking I have to go vote myself. And I received a call around 1:30 p.m. from my centre director telling me that the electoral officers were leaving at 2:30. The reason that they gave us was that they had to take their airplane earlier because the weather was going to get bad.

NK: That's the first inkling you had that things were not going at least as scheduled. You did go to vote, and then what happened?

KM: Yes. From that call, I asked my bosses here at work if I can go vote because they were closing early and they agreed to let me go. So, I went to the polling station and I was informed that they were leaving at 2:30. I tried to vote, but I wasn't able to. I gave them my identification, I gave them my IDs, everything, all my information that they needed, and my name was not on the list. So, that would have been a problem that could have been solved if they had taken the time to stay here until at least 6:30, like they said before.

NK: Well, I mean, and people get registered, just even the line I was in in early voting, there was a gentleman in front of me who went to get registered. You can get registered and put on the list at your polling station. It just takes a few minutes.

KM: Yeah, that's correct. The problem is that they had to leave. They kind of just pushed me to the side and kept going with the line. At the time that I went there, I guess a lot of people were hearing that they were leaving early, so they rushed to go to the polling station. And there was a line of about a dozen to 15, 20 people there. And all those people that were in line were refused to vote because they had to leave. And while I was there, I asked the officers for their supervisor's name and their number so I can file a complaint. And I called him right away, and he told me a couple things. First of all, our whole conversation was in French. And luckily, I do speak in French. So, I was able to tell him what was happening, what the situation was. The first thing he told me was that there was no accommodations in town for those electoral officers, which I know for a fact is not true. And I say this because we have three hotels here in Quaqtaq. And then, he mentioned also that they tried to do recruitment locally for someone local to be doing the polling station, to run the polling stations.

NK: And people usually volunteer in their neighbourhood.

KM: Very, very much so. I talked to a few people that usually do it and they told me I was waiting and waiting for someone, or for news, or for recruitment, so that I could participate and run the polling station like I usually do in the past years, but there was never anything. So, I was very frustrated with that supervisor. And I asked him do you understand that today I lost my legal right to vote?

NK: And just to repeat, you voted before without any issue in previous elections.

KM: Yes, correct. I've never had a problem.

NK: Yeah, so that one would take from that that Elections Canada is aware of the terrain and the weather and the needs in your riding and in the region. As our listeners heard in the introduction, we did reach out to Elections of Canada. They say they're looking into it. It's citing, as you have said, weather and difficulty recruiting local teams. Clearly, that didn't sit well with you then. Another voter spoke to CBC News, Mary Papigatuk, in Salowit, and said, quote, we as Inuit have had non-Inuit using us for show, but then when it's actually time for us to be involved, we're not involved, unquote. How does what you experienced yesterday make you feel?

KM: Well, very angry. I've been angry since it happened yesterday. In my viewpoint, it's illegal. We have the right to vote. And it's such an important thing for us to vote because we're putting our lives in their hands in a way that we usually cannot. We're choosing people to have a voice for us. And if we cannot even vote for that, it's putting us in so much risk in our life. That's what I think, personally. Also, as an Inuk woman, I think it's very, very important for me to vote. Women have not had the right to vote for a long time, and for me, to be able to vote, I think it's very important. I make a big deal out of it because it's the one way we can choose how our lives will go, how the quality of our lives would be.

NK: Kayla, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

KM: No problem.

CH: Kayla Meeko teaches Grade Three and Grade Four, and is also the president of the board of directors at the Quaqtaq daycare. We reached her in Quaqtaq, Nunavik.

[uptempo]

Bloc Quebecois

CH: Yves-François Blanchet won his seat back by a comfortable margin. But the Bloc Québecois suffered some uncomfortable losses -- reduced from 33 seats in Parliament to just 22, after bleeding voters to Mark Carney's Liberals. Speaking at a press conference today, Mr. Blanchet said there are many lessons to be learned from that outcome -- and not just by Canadians. Here's what he told reporters, when asked what accounts for the Bloc's eleven lost seats.

SOUNDCLIP

YVES-FRANÇOIS BLANCHET: It's at once the threat from the White House, and the very clever use of the fear in the population by the Liberals, who destigated it. Each time they feared to lose ground, suddenly the 51st state came back. And there was an affirmation about Canada's sovereignty. You know what? Canada can't face United States alone. We will need Mexico, we will need Europe. I will start again speaking to ambassadors and maybe go out there, meet with some people. Because if you are a country in Europe or some countries in Asia, you look at Canada this morning and you say, what the hell is coming on us now? They measure the extent of instability that Mr. Trump is still able to create for three-and-a-half years. There's no capital in the world, which does not look at Canada today and say, brace for impact, it's coming on us also. And we will have to remain the barrier not to be crossed protecting French language and secularity of the state in Quebec and a different model of immigration which has to be successful and the fact that there's no future for oil and gas, at least in Quebec, and probably everywhere. And this has to be said and protected.

CH: Yves-François Blanchet is the newly re-elected leader of the Bloc Québecois, and one of just two opposition leaders to keep their seats yesterday -- along with the Green Party's Elizabeth May.

[80’s synthwave]

Seagull Impersonator

Guest: Anna Brynald

CH: The room is darkly lit, but for a single beam of light, illuminating you and your kazoo. You take a tremulous breath, and start playing the Oasis classic Wonderwall, blasting it out with such force that you nearly hyperventilate. Open mic nights can be scary -- putting yourself out there in front of a live audience, worried you may look silly or your voice might be a little pitchy. But for Anna Brynald, embracing the uncertainty and pushing through those concerns was kind of the point. Because this open mic was the big time. This...was the European Gull Screeching Championships. The event took place this past weekend. Crowds packed into a Belgian pub and offered up their best impressions of the winged warrior. Ms. Brynald was there, competing for Denmark. And becoming the pride of a nation...by taking home the gold. We reached Anna Brynald in Solrød Strand, Denmark.

NK: Anna, let's hear it. Let's hear your award-winning screech.

ANNA BRYNALD: Are you ready?

NK: I'm ready.

[that's actually a seagull...I bet]

AB: I can hear why you won. [both chuckle] Did you feel in that moment as soon as you performed at the competition? You know, anyone who's competed knows at any level you feel like, I nailed it, I did it. Did you feel, like, you were going to win?

AB: I had a feeling that I was gonna win. But actually, right after I was a bit disappointed. I felt I could have done it better, but I was also a bit sick, so.

NK: So, that hampered your performance a little bit. What do you think you could have done better? That sounded pretty great to me.

AB: I think next year, if I participate next year, I'll be even better.

NK: What do you want to do differently?

AB: First of all, not be sick. [NK chuckles] And I think I will need some more feathers

NK: More feathers. This is because you had a costume. Is a costume required or is it a choice?

AB: You get points from one to 100, and 25 per cent of the points are you getting on the costume, 75 for the screech.

NK: Describe your costume for our listeners.

AB: Yeah, it was ball cap, white ball cap, and a lot of white feathers. I made the wings myself, so I took a lot feathers and glued them on some fairy wings. And I found some black feathers in the nature.

NK: Real feathers, okay!

AB: And I glued them on.

NK: How long did it take you to make?

AB: In between one or two days.

NK: Worth it?

AB: Yeah. [both chuckle]

NK: At the competition, you're up against 21 people, if I'm not mistaken. What did you think of the other competitors?

AB: They were so nice. And there were people from Finland and Norway and almost everywhere in Europe. And it was so refreshing to meet so many people that just like seagulls, like me.

NK: [chuckling] What makes you love seagulls so much? And so much that you want to be one for this competition?

AB: [chuckling] I like that the seagulls like fries because I love fries. [NK chuckles] And they're just a bit misunderstood, like me. And they're cute!

NK: But you had a deeper reason for wanting to do this when you started up two years ago.

AB: Yeah, I started making seagull sounds because two years, or two-and-a-half years ago, I lost my best friend.

NK: I'm sorry.

AB: One of my good friends, he died. And I got an existential crisis. I couldn't see the meaning in life. And then, I remembered that's the beautiful. If there isn't any meaning in life, that means I can do literally everything I want. I can make seagull sounds because I don't care. I could be dead tomorrow, I just wanna do what's fun and not think about what other people think about me.

NK: So, what other fun things have you been doing?

AB: I have been doing everything. [NK chuckles] I worked at a place where I was a singing waiter and I made tartelitter. That's a Danish food, tartellitter.

NK: What is it?

AB: Yeah, it's really hard to describe. Just a Danish, Danish eating thing, hønsekød

NK: Is it a vegetable dish, is it a pastry?

AB: No. Actually, it can be anything, but you eat it for --

NK: It's not seagull meat. [chuckle]

AB: Yeah. No, no, not seagull!

NK: [chuckling] If we go back to the competition Anna. What kind of training did you have to do to be prepared to win?

AB: I had been singing my whole life, so I just worked harder at singing and bringing my pitch so high I could. And I worked with the seagulls. I went to the beach and I looked at many seagulls and I thought they looked nice. And I screeched at them, but they became scared of me, so.

NK: Oh, then you- then you felt bad because you liked them.

AB: Yeah, maybe I'm saying something wrong in Seagull language, I don't know.

NK: [chuckling] There's different categories at this competition, including for young people. One of the other competitors, a 10-year-old named Cooper Wallace, caught the attention of our team as well. Cooper won the kids category last year, won that same category this year. What do you think of the next generation of seagull screechers?

AB: I think he's much better at speaking English than me. [both chuckle]

NK: But does that mean you're a better screecher?

AB: Maybe! I got more points than him, so.

NK: [laughing] I love it! Throwing shade at a ten-year-old competitor. I love it. [AB laughs] There's a little seagull, there is actual seagull fight in you, Anna.

AB: [chuckling] Cooper is actually very nice, and I tried to say congratulations to him, but I think my English was so bad that he couldn't understand me.

NK: Are you, so, are you committed to doing the competition next year? What will help you decide whether to go ahead with it?

AB: I really want to, but it was very expensive, traveling and hotel and food and everything. And I work as a Danish influencer, and you don't, believe it or not, you don't get paid that much as a danish influencer. So, I think if I have the money, I will go again.

NK: Well, congratulations on this win, Anna. I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

AB: Yeah, thank you.

CH: Anna Brynald was the gold medalist at the 2025 European Gull Screeching Championship that was held on Sunday in Belgium. We reached her in Solrød Strand, Denmark. And listen, we know there's a lot going on right now, things have maybe been a little stressful. So, if screeching like a seagull into your phone is going to help take the edge off, we invite you to do just that. Send us YOUR best seagull impressions by calling out Talkback line, 416-205-5687, or send that screech in a voice note to aih@cbc.ca.

[industrial]

Probe Fail

CH: [read like William Shatner] Space: The final frontier. This is the voyage of the Russian spacecraft Kosmos 482. Its 53-year mission: to go to Venus. To seek out the planet Venus. To boldly go all the way to Venus, and nowhere else. Imagine how excited Kosmos 482 must have been when it was assigned that job. "You're going to Venus, little buddy," the Soviet scientists told it. "Send back tons of information, 'kay?" And so, on March 31st, 1972, the small probe was launched. "Don't forget to go to Venus," the scientists shouted in Russian, waving at it with handkerchiefs. And the probe thought "I won't let you down”. Kosmos 482 is scheduled to land sometime in early May. And imagine its surprise when its long journey ends, and it finally smashes into the planetary surface, and creatures approach it. "I made it to Venus," Kosmos 482 will think. "Here come the Venusians!"

[music fades

CH: “This that busted Soviet probe?" one will say. "Yep," another will say, "It malfunctioned. Instead of going to Venus like it was supposed to, it's just been orbiting the Earth for 53 years. Now it's crashed here on Earth again! What a pile of junk."

[Kirk’s Sacrifice]

CH: Oh...oh no. Suddenly, Kosmos 482 realizes why every planet it passed had something that looked like the Great Wall of China on it: that was the Great Wall of China. No wonder it's been so dizzy for 53 years -- it was never on its way to Venus at all. It's just been going around and around the Earth. And now it's tumbled ignominiously back to the planet it left.

[music fades]

CH: So in May, when Kosmos 482 returns home, after plunging through the atmosphere, let's try to be nice to it. It's bound to be embarrassed. But let's be understanding: it just got stuck in a non-Venus flying trap.

[R&B]

Part 3: Longest Ballot Candidate, Measles: André Picard

Longest Ballot Candidate

Guest: Mark Moutter

CH: Today, Canadians are preparing for another Liberal government. But even if that's staying the same, across the country, a lot has changed. As you've been hearing, in the Ottawa-area riding of Carleton, for example, incumbent candidate and Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre lost his seat to Liberal Bruce Fanjoy. Who didn't just beat Mr. Poilievre. He beat 89 other candidates too. Many of whom were protest candidates who threw their hats in the ring as part of a campaign to draw attention to the issue of electoral reform. They did that with the support of the Longest Ballot Committee. Mark Moutter was one of those dozens of candidates. We reached him in Montreal, earlier today.

NK: Mark, is this the result you were hoping for?

MARK MOUTTER: Frankly, I am very optimistic about this. I think that we did pretty well in Carleton. We saw record turnout, much higher than the national average, and we saw a record amount of people discussing electoral reform. So, I frankly believe that we succeeded.

NK: There might be a group of people who are blaming you [chuckle] for having to deal with those ballots, not just mark them, but work with them, those election workers. Are you willing to accept the blame for the tough times they might have had yesterday?

MM: You know, we were blamed for this. People said that we would be the reason for the election going late into the night, but the irony is that we are not. Carlton's counting went very smoothly compared to some other ridings, and even today we still have Terrebonne and Terranova, which have really slight vote margins. And ironically, the reason that we're still waiting for results from the election is that we still first have first past the post, which is what we're fighting against.

NK: Physically speaking, just, you know, I've seen this ballot, this very, very long ballot. Describe how big it is for our listeners.

MM: I'd say it's about a metre long. We have 91 people on the ballot.

NK: This was an election, you know, that people talked about being an existential or the most important election in a generation for some people. Was this the right moment to do something like this?

MM: I'd argue that it is. I mean, it's never a better time than to actually better represent what the people want, and our current system does not. This is evident from yesterday's election results, where we have the NDP and the Bloc that share the same amount of votes, and yet there's a very large discrepancy in their seat counts. And I think that if we want to have a country that is able to actually stand up on the world stage, if we wanna be honest with ourselves, if we want to have the people have confidence our democracy, we need to improve our system.

NK: What do you actually think would have been different today if we had a different system in place?

MM: I think that it would better represent what people want. And, at the end of the day, it would allow for more discourse, it would allow more conversation in the House of Commons, and for less situations in which you have one party that dominates politics for the longest time.

NK: The Longest Ballot Committee chose to do this, as we were saying, in Pierre Poilievre's riding. Why not do it somewhere else? Maybe Liberal Leader Mark Carney's riding?

MM: This was actually the original plan. We initially planned on doing this in both Nepean and in Carleton. However, Mark Carney announced the elections in a really short amount of time. So, we barely had enough time to gather signatures in Carleton. And by the time we got started on Nepean, there was an ice storm. So, things were just not looking good for gathering signatures in Nepean. And we stopped short of 60 candidates, I believe. So, we figured we're going to stick to 91 in one of them and actually keep it the longest ballot.

NK: Elections Canada has warned that this kind of situation can lead to delays. I hear what you were saying, what you said a moment ago, that you don't believe that it was a problem in this case. But do you think that, you know, in a time, we saw a great turnout for advanced voting and we'll see what the final tally is for voting yesterday, but in a time where voter apathy is certainly a reality, people feel disenfranchised, disengaged, do you think people might just be turned off by this and annoyed? It makes the process harder for them.

MM: I'd like to say that long ballots are not exclusive to Canada. And a lot of other countries like Australia and a lots of European countries, typical ballots are much longer. So, people can very much get used to having longer ballots and those countries have very high voter participation. So, I think with time, we should be able to get our voters used to have longer ballots and this should actually lead to people realizing how first past the post is not an optimal system.

NK: There were also concerns about accessibility for people with disabilities. What would you say to their concerns?

MM: Elections Canada has plenty of accessibility measures for long ballots. Already, there is large print versions available for everybody, there's braille versions available for everybody. And I'd like to say when I was there last year in LaSalle-Émard-Verdun, which is the last time the Longest Ballot pulled this.

NK: That's in Montreal?

MM: Exactly. I was at the polling stations and the whole process was very smooth. There were very little accessibility complaints from people because Elections Canada like to say they did a really good job with planning everything with training the workers. So, if other countries can do it, so can we.

NK: One of the things that I recall Justin Trudeau saying that he regretted before he stepped down was that he wasn't able to make inroads on electoral reform, as he had promised. Do you think, though, given the moment we're in, what this incoming government is going to be dealing with, specifically in the United States, that this is going to be anywhere near [chuckle] the top of the list to get done in the next term?

MM: I don't think it'll be anywhere near the top of the list, which is completely natural. People have other priorities and we're not living through easy times right now. But I do think that with a minority government right now, with the Liberals in charge, they're going to have more of a motivation to actually do something about this. So, I do think that this is going to push our government to actually improve the system. I don't know how quick it's going to be, but I do have the hope.

NK: You're 19 years old, you've been on two ballots already, albeit as a protest. Are you planning a political career?

MM: I don't think so. Being a career politician is definitely not on my list of priorities. And I think that that's for the best. I like seeing people engage in things they're passionate about and seeing the perspectives of people who are specialists in different areas and who aren't career politicians all the time. And I think that's what makes society so great where you have competent people discussing things and actually getting into politics from their areas of perspective.

NK: Mark, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MM: Thank you very much.

CH: Mark Moutter is one of the 91 candidates who ran in the Ottawa-area riding of Carleton. We reached him earlier today in Montreal

[elevator music]

Elizabeth May

CH: Elizabeth May is heading back to Ottawa, alone. Last night, the Green Party co-leader was the only member of her party to be elected. This morning she talked to our colleagues in British Columbia.

SOUNDCLIP

ELIZABETH MAY: Well, very depressed, obviously. I mean, but Mike Morrice, was, as member of Parliament for Kitchener Centre, in every analysis going into the election. But unfortunately, like Paul Manley in Nanaimo-Ladysmith, who only decided to run when he realized from the polling that he was looking at, that we were all looking at that he would likely be the only person who could stop a Conservative from taking the riding. He's an extraordinarily talented, selfless, hard-working, God, I can't say enough about how much Paul Manley is really an admirable person of enormous integrity. I thought we'd be going back to Parliament together. So when you asked me how we feel, when I was first elected in 2011, I knew I was going to be the only MP for the Green Party going into Parliament, pretty obviously because no one had ever won before. But this time around, I thought for sure I would be in good company. There's no question that's hard. But this was, I comfort myself of the fact that this was a very unusual election that was pitched nationally as if we had changed voting systems and we elect a prime minister the way the U.S., they elect a president, and it were a two-party system like in the US. We've never been a two-party system, it would be bad for democracy if we moved in that direction. So, I'm grateful for every NDP member re-elected, I am grateful for my own seat and the, And I spoke to the prime minister last night to congratulate him on forming government, minority, for sure, unstable, we've got a lot of work to do to create stability for this country and be Team Canada to deal with Trump. So, to me, there's the personal results, the results from my party. But, ultimately, this is a very weird election where we're left with a lot of uncertainty the morning after.

CH: Green Party co-leader -- and the only Green MP heading to Ottawa -- Elizabeth May, talking to Gregor Craigie, host of CBC's On the Island.

[hip-hop]]

Measles: André Picard

Guest: André Picard

CH: Canada is in the midst of its worst measles outbreak in decades -- but you wouldn't know it from the response by public health. That's the argument André Picard makes in a new -- and scathing -- op-ed in the Globe and Mail. According to the veteran health journalist, public health officials have stayed relatively silent despite the severity of the outbreak. And, as Ontario logs more measles cases than the entirety of the United States, that has him especially concerned. We reached Mr. Picard in transit, on Highway 401.

NK: André, you certainly do not mince words in your column about this. What was the point you felt that you had to write it and say what you said?

ANDRÉ PICARD: You know this is the worst outbreak of preventable childhood illness in three decades, this is a big deal, and it really threatens to get much worse, especially in Ontario and Alberta where we see cases climbing. So, we shouldn't just be sitting on our hands. We should be very proactive about this. This is a preventable illness, there's no excuse for not doing something.

NK: Officials have given interviews about what is happening. We've certainly had Dr. Sarah Wilson, a public health physician from Public Health Ontario on our show, and others have done this as well, urging parents to vaccinate their children, they're sharing the updated numbers regularly. You clearly feel that that is not enough. What should they be doing instead?

AP: Just counting the cases is not enough. We have to be preventing them. I think there have been suggestions from other quarters, from politicians, from other provinces. What do we need to do? Regular briefings beyond the numbers, explain where they are happening, why, do catch-up clinics, not only in the regions where there is an outbreak, but elsewhere to make sure it doesn't spread. We can do more education. We know there are challenges about getting people to vaccinate. Some of this has to do with COVID. People's attitudes changing. So, there should be a full suite of things going on. We shouldn't just be sitting back and saying, well, it's only in one community. This will pass. We're not sure it'll pass.

NK: Ontario's chief medical officer of health, Dr. Kieran Moore, when you talk about communities, was suggesting previously that this outbreak is largely limited to Mennonite communities in the province. And that local health units are on top of things and handling it. That concerned you specifically as well.

AP: Well, yeah, we know that it started in the Mennonite community and we know the origins of the outbreak. But 1,000 people, are they all Menninite? That's highly unlikely. The Mennenite are not a closed-off community. To a great extent, they interact with a lot of people. We have some data on where the transmission may have occurred but that data is also suspect. It kind of says in the doctor's office. Well, clearly, people had it before they got there, so is it happening in schools? Is it happening in community centres? People have to be informed to be able to protect themselves.

NK: One would imagine, and I think hope, that public health officials and doctors want to make sure people in their provinces and areas stay healthy. So, why do you think there is this, as you put it, quote, indifference and inaction?

AP: Well, I think there's a reluctance to engage, you know, the public health took a beating during COVID. They're very sensitive about their reputation, about people being reacting to public health in a bad way, but I think they've retreated too much. I think, there's also this notion of, you know, we don't want to single out a community, although there's mixed messaging on that. We say, well, it's generally. And then, we say it's just Mennonites. But there's this, I think, reluctance to just say what's going on in plain terms.

NK: You also in your column talk about the law in Ontario that allows parents with, quote, religious and philosophical objections to opt out of vaccinating their children. And you've described this as indefensible. Do you think that anything will change in terms of that law? Why shouldn't people have the right to refuse based on those grounds?

AP: You know you have the right as an adult you can refuse vaccination whatever as you wish. You're subject to the consequences. You know, if you work in health care, you may not be able to work. That's all sensible. But, you know, you can't be sending unvaccinated kids to school, especially during an outbreak. That's just a recipe for disaster. At the very least, we should be excluding children who are not vaccinated. Do we have that data? Are we acting on it? This is all the kind of information that's not being shared with us.

NK: Earlier this month, you know, you were mentioning Alberta, Alberta's government let the contract of its chief medical officer expire. Measles cases are continuing to be reported there. The new interim chief medical official has not publicly spoken about the outbreak yet. What does all of that, if anything, what kind of message does that send?

AP: Well, I think in Alberta, it's fair to say there's a hostility towards public health. Again, tied to COVID. You know, if you've had an interim chief medical health officer for three years, I don't think you're too serious about public health. They have to have a person in that job. They have to have power. You now, the new interim, the interim chief has been replaced by another interim chief. He has, I believe, three other jobs. He's not dedicating a lot of time to public health. This is just not being taken seriously. They have even less data, we have less information on where it's spreading.

NK: You talk about the financial cost of measles and its spread. What is Canada spending on treatment and tracing versus prevention?

AP: We don't have that data, we don't really research it, but we have some U.S. data suggests that each measles case can cost between $30,000 and $50,000. Now, the reason is because it's very highly spreadable. So, if we know, for example, a child was on the VIA train who has measles, you have to track down everybody who was on that train car, try and figure out if they're infected, urge them to get tested, ask them if anybody else is sick. This is really grunt work. It takes a lot of time. And, again, prevention is much cheaper. If you are on a train and they contact you and somebody was infected on that train, you say, well, my kid's vaccinated. And they'll go, good, they're probably fine.

NK: I know a lot of people who are listening, wherever they're listening from, all of this might worry them, whether they have little ones or not. Based on your reporting and what you know, André, do you have any advice for those who are worried?

AP: Well, you know, we really should make sure that our kids are vaccinated. Measles is probably the most infectious disease in the world. It's particularly dangerous for kids under the age of one, for pregnant women. Kids under the edge of one generally don't get vaccinated. We only start at one, although now when there's an outbreak, you do it a little earlier. But it's the most vulnerable in society who are most vulnerable to this illness. To me, that's all the more reason to really pull out all the stops. That people are going to suffer or not. People who are healthy adults, their children, their pregnant women who are going to lose their babies. This is a serious business.

NK: What do you think will be the moment, if at all, that you might see a change from public health officials to bring things to where you think they should be?

AP: I don't know, I just hope they'll start speaking more openly and regularly about this. You don't get the general public to understand the severity of this. We shouldn't wait until the outbreak is in your community to vaccinate. We have catch-up vaccination clinics in Ontario, but they're not being done in the regions where there's no infections. That's not very forward thinking. There's a hospital in Thunder Bay that started screening people going into the hospital. That's smart, proactive public health work. But that's being done on a local initiative to make sure, you know, they don't have any cases that we know of, but they're saying we don't want any and we certainly don't want them in a hospital where it could actually kill someone quite quickly.

NK: André, I appreciate this, thank you.

AP: Thank you, a pleasure.

CH: André Picard is a health reporter and columnist with the Globe and Mail. We contacted Ontario's chief medical officer of Health, Dr Kiernan Moore, for comment. A spokesperson for the Minister of Health said in a statement, quote: “Our government and Dr. Moore have been very clear in our message to people across the province – vaccination is the most effective way to limit the spread of measles, including protecting children in schools. Children who are fully vaccinated with two doses are nearly 100 per cent protected. Currently, over 96 per cent of cases in Ontario are among unvaccinated individuals.” Unquote.

[ambient]

Encore: Climate Change Puppets

CH: Amir Nizar Zuabi is intimately familiar with theatres. He's an award-winning playwright and director -- and the former associate director at London's celebrated Young Vic. But some of his best-known works don’t take place in a theatre at all. Such as a project whose star was an 11-foot tall partially animatronic puppet of a girl known as Little Amal. The Walk took place in 2021, travelling from the Syria-Turkey border to the United Kingdom, to bring attention to the refugee crisis. Its successor is set to be even bigger. Literally. Earlier this month, The Herds kicked off in Kinshasa. The 20 thousand kilometre, global journey will see life-sized puppet animals take to the streets, to draw attention to environmental issues., Last year, Amir Nizar Zuabi described his vision to guest host Helen Mann.

AMIR NIZAR ZUABI: They will see a mass migration of animals -- mainly mammoth, big mammoths -- but not only. And these animals are, are puppets. They're not real animals.

HM: Uh-huh.

ANZ: They're life-sized, zoologically-accurate puppets that are created by a South African puppet company called Handspring Puppets. And they're created from upcycled materials, using cardboard and waste rubber. And they're very, very accurate and very, very emotive animals. They're very beautiful animals.

HM: That upcycling is relevant to the project -- I would think -- because it's all about bringing attention to the climate crisis. Is that right?

ANZ: The whole idea is to re-evaluate our relationship with what we define nature. And that's partly why we chose animals as, as the ambassadors of what nature is for us. It's, it's nature taking over our, our spaces after we usually ignore it. And we cover everything with asphalt, and we build these big, thick walls around us to protect us from nature. But nature is there, and it's alive, and it's vivacious, and it's, and it's all around us. And, and in a way, a big part of the idea is that the way we perceive the world is the way we perceive our space, and who is entitled to this space. And by this mass invasion of, of animals, we want to, to encourage people to, to think differently about the relationship that is creating a massive, massive, massive upheaval in our world with climate change.

HM: The project was inspired in part by your own experience watching African birds migrate as a child. That annual display made a real impression on you. What was it about it that was so engaging?

ANZ: You know, I'm, I'm lucky or unlucky -- [chuckling] depending on the political situation -- but, but I'm Palestinian. And our very small country that is a funnel between the, the desert and the sea is a route of one of the most spectacular bird migrations. And there's something about the fact that the skies suddenly change above your head. At some times of the year, there's layers and layers of them. So, there's, there's so many layers of different types of birds that the sky literally darkens. And, of course, this has changed over the years. And because of, of pollution and because of climate change, the numbers of birds has dwindled significantly. And the skies are not as thick as they were when I was a child. But it is, the only word I can use is breathtaking because you understand that you are a mere speck.

HM: You have said that you are aware that this effort is kind of like drops of water on a stone. That it's just a small part of raising awareness about climate change. What is different about using this form of the arts to, to present these issues that, that that isn't something that people would receive from, from the news or other information sources that, that have been telling them for years now that climate change is all around them?

ANZ: I think the one thing that we have as storytellers, as theatre makers, one, one, one advantage we have is the ability to tell a precise story that becomes an emotional story for people. And I think that one thing that arts do -- if they're done correctly -- that nothing else does is beauty. And beauty penetrates indifference in, in so many different ways. You know, you can, the minute you walk into the Sistine Chapel and you look up, something very profound moves inside you. And the Sistine Chapel becomes something very important. It will never be a ceiling again. It becomes so much more. It becomes a way to define your relationship with, with divinity, right? I think beauty penetrates us in a way that nothing else does. And I think the arts have a, a way to harness beauty into storytelling. This, The Herds is a continuation or a development of a project that we've been walking around the world with.

HM: Yeah, let me just --

ANZ: Which is the Little Amal project.

HM: Yeah, I want to ask you a, just a little bit about it. Little Amal was, was about raising awareness of, of refugees and migrants. And it was, it was -- as you say -- all around the world. Tell us what you're taking from Little Amal that informs The Herds.

ANZ: Well, you know, we, we've been to hundreds of places. What we do take very, very precisely from Amal is the, our production model. And our production model means that we work with local knowledge. We work with local partnerships that are profound, that are real partnerships, and they are the glue and the fuel of the project, which means the project is not something that tours. It's something that is co-created in each city with local artists, and with local community, and with local climate organizations in this case, and, and civic society. So, one of the things that we learned from doing the Little Amal projects everywhere is that local knowledge is, is precious, and local knowledge makes what you have to say very, very bespoke, and specific, and precise. And, and art is about precision in many ways.

HM: The Herds will set out from Senegal in the spring of 2025. The plan is for it to wind its way to Norway. What is the hardest part of travelling such a distance with a project like this one?

ANZ: The hardest part is to accept that you don't control anything. [both laugh] Which is, which is also the most joyous part about this. Flexibility is key. And, and that is both glorious and both very difficult at times.

HM: I wish you the best of luck with the project. From what I've seen, it's going to be very beautiful. Thank you very much for speaking with us.

ANZ: Thank you so much, Helen. Thank you very, very much.

CH: From February, 2024, that’s Amir Nizar Zuabi telling guest host Helen Mann about his latest project, The Herds.

The AIH Transcript For April 29, 2025

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