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The AIH transcript for April 28, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Vote of no confidence. A manager at an overnight shelter in Ontario taking voters to the polling station today says Elections Canada has a mountain of work to do to drop the barriers unhoused people face when they try to cast a ballot.

CH: Vote of new confidence. A new Canadian who arrived as a Syrian refugee tells us what it means to him to cast his ballot here for the first time -- and why he'll be celebrating no matter who wins.

NK: After a driver kills 11 people at a Filipino street festival in Vancouver, a city councillor describes her disbelief, hurt and anger -- but says she takes comfort in the support and resilience her community is remarkably, already showing.

CH: A deep dive into his deep dive. Not long ago he was watching the ocean hurtling toward him, after the engine of his Cessna gave out. But the B.C. pilot tells us the crash won't affect his love of flying.

NK: If the tooth be known. A forensic anthropologist uncovers the surprising details of a gladiator's death in Roman-era England by inspecting a bitemark in his skeleton -- and by taking a trip to the zoo.

CH: And...surly bird special. The Department of National Defence issues guidelines for staff dealing with Canada geese during breeding season -- suggesting you gotta get tough with the tough old birds.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that squawks softly, and carries a big stick.

[theme]

Part 1: Unhoused Voters, Vancouver Attack: Community, B.C. Pilot Rescue

Unhoused Voters

Guest: Champagne Thomson

CH: It won't be long now before we know who the next prime minister of Canada will be. Millions of Canadians cast their ballots today. But for unhoused people across the country, voting isn't always as easy as waiting in a line at a high school gym, and showing some government ID. People experiencing homelessness face barriers at the polls that many other Canadians do not. And Champagne Thomson wants Elections Canada to change that. She's a development manager at Shelter House in Thunder Bay, Ontario. She is also one of a number of people with social service organizations across Canada who have been helping voters get to the polls. We reached Champagne Thomson in Thunder Bay, Ontario, this afternoon.

NK: Champagne, what do you figure? How many times have you walked back and forth from the polling station so far today?

CHAMPAGNE THOMSON: This morning I have gone back and forth approximately three times and it's about 12 minutes each direction. It is also a complete and total thunderstorm here.

NK: Oh no!

CT: So, I know that that is certainly impacting voter turnout for sure.

NK: And when you have made that trek back and forth, how are people feeling?

CT: People are feeling very excited at the opportunity that we are supporting the federal election similarly to the provincial election. However, we have had a lot of individuals express disappointment, I guess, would be the right word around the barriers that exist for this election compared to the last. They showed up today expecting just to be able to have their proof of residence from Shelter House, thinking that that was all they were going to need. And then, being told that they needed a secondary piece of ID certainly dampened the experience, but we've been able to get pretty crafty and creative with people.

NK: And what are those secondary pieces? What do people have to show?

CT: Unfortunately, a lot of our folks are having to show prescription pill bottles to be able to provide a secondary source of identification for themselves.

NK: That's a, it's a very personal thing.

CT: Absolutely. One of the lovely individuals that I supported this morning said to me, she goes I guess it's my good luck that I have pneumonia and actually have a prescription because normally I don't have prescriptions, but this time I happen to have one. Otherwise, I wouldn't have ID. So, I guess I got pneumonia for a reason.

NK: What do you say when people say things like that to you?

CT: Well, I validate the fact that it's definitely dehumanizing to have to show a prescription bottle, but I very much admire and support their tenacity and willingness to be vulnerable in those moments and use that as a secondary piece of ID. Because I don't know if I was in a similar situation if I would be comfortable doing that, per se.

NK: In terms of showing proof before people are allowed to vote, another option is you can have someone vouch for you, as I understand it, at the polls. Is that a viable alternative?

CT: Honestly, for our population and our demographic, it really doesn't work that well because that individual that vouches for your identity has to be within the same polling station district and they can only vouch for one individual.

NK: Your clients are directly impacted by many of the issues that are top of mind for people right across the country in this election. What's at stake or at risk when they feel it's not worth it to vote, or there's too many obstacles?

CT: A lot of the individuals who stood up and were very excited at the opportunity to be able to have a letter from us as a secondary piece of identification were young Indigenous women who are staying with us. And actually, the young woman who shared, you know, it's a good thing I have pneumonia because otherwise, I wouldn't have a prescription, she's a young Indigenous woman. And she said I voted in every single election and I didn't think I was going to get to vote in this one. And my people and my community are on the line on this election based on Indigenous Affairs and that portfolio being held at a federal level. And looking at it from a very Thunder Bay-centric perspective, over 75 per cent of individuals who are experiencing houselessness in Thunder Bay have indicated in 2024 that they identify as Indigenous. So, if you're looking at three-quarters of the unhoused population being detrimentally impacted by a lot of the decisions that are being made at the federal level, it's really important that they have an opportunity to use their voice, to be able to vote, to be able get out there and be represented in an election that very much impacts all of their facets of life.

NK: What's happening in the United States, our relationship with that country, was certainly central to this election. There's been a lot of focus on that, other issues as well, but that's been a central issue, as you well know. Do you think that the needs, the concerns, of unhoused people in this country got the attention that they deserved in this vote?

CT: I don't think they did, especially in northwestern Ontario, even some of the volunteers that come in who have, quote/unquote, graduated the shelter program, but come back to volunteer with us, they said to me today, they said, well, I haven't even received any campaign literature. I don t even know who's running in the election. Unhoused and underhoused and folks living under the poverty line have been completely ignored in this entire election. They aren't even getting the information to be able to make informed decisions on where to vote, how to vote, or even who to vote for. It's as if they don't even exist in this election. There was a slightly higher amount of education and effort put in by the province during the provincial vote, but not that much more. And it's really sad that we don't have anyone coming to the shelter to talk about their campaign platforms, or to talk about how to gain access to voting. And these folks are really noticing it, and they say, well, why should I go out and vote if no one's even made the effort to educate me on it, or to tell me about why I should vote for them?

NK: Elections Canada, we should say a spokesperson, said to CBC News, quote, reaching homeless electors is more challenging. And went on to say, along with community relations officers, we work with stakeholders from our inspired democracy network to spread information about the electoral process, particularly about how homeless electors can prove their identity and address, unquote. So, what would you say to Elections Canada for future elections?

CT: If I'm speaking quite frankly, I don't necessarily believe that the communications officer that issued that statement is aware of what's going on on the ground. Because when my amazing colleague through Norwest Community Health Centre reached out, specifically asking for those outreach and community officers to be able to come in and provide that support, we were told outright that that position doesn't exist. So, for the communications officer who issued that statement to say that, I believe that may be the hope of Elections Canada, but unfortunately it's certainly not the reality in northwestern Ontario.

NK: Champagne, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

CT: Thank you.

CH: Champagne Thomson is a development manager at Shelter House in Thunder Bay. We reached her there earlier today. We also contacted Elections Canada. A spokesperson told us that in the riding of Thunder Bay-Rainy River, they were unable to find a qualified candidate to fill the homeless community relations officer role. But that in the Thunder Bay-Superior North riding, a CRO was available and did, quote, "significant outreach."

[ambient]

Vancouver Attack: Community

Guest: Maita Santiago

CH: People across Vancouver, and across Canada, are in mourning today for the victims of a deadly attack on Saturday. Eleven people were killed when an SUV rammed through a crowd at the Lapu-Lapu Day festival. The youngest victim was just five years old. More than a dozen other people are still in the hospital with injuries. A 30-year-old man is facing multiple second-degree murder charges. Maita Santiago is a city councillor in nearby Burnaby, B.C. and an organizer of the Pinoy Festival -- a Filipino festival that takes place every summer. We reached her in Burnaby.

NK: Councilor Santiago, how are you is a difficult and complicated question to answer, I know, on days like today, but how are dealing with things today?

MAITA SANTIAGO: Yeah, thank you for reaching out. I'm doing all right. We're all really just coping. I send my sincerest condolences to everybody grieving. And we all pray for the recovery of the many that are injured. I think, like with many others in our Filipino community, whether we were at the event or weren't, we're all just directly impacted, still shaken. And I feel like we've gone through a range of emotions that change, depending on the time, right, from disbelief, shock, horror, anger, and also just focused on trying to get through whatever moment it is that we're in.

NK: Did you know any of the victims, Counselor Santiago?

MS: Yeah, I don't know anyone personally, but I know, like, through friends, friends of relatives, neighbours. Just before we got on the call, I learned about a friend whose neighbour that lived nearby was one of those killed. You know, and then another friend of my sister. And, you know, we still don't even have all of them publicly disclosed yet. But, you know, just with each information, it just breaks our hearts anew. And so, we really, really are praying and concerned about everybody.

NK: You talked about that range of emotions that people keep cycling through and it's still so fresh, it's understandable. This a deep wound for people there.

MS: It is. It is. You know, I lost my father just about under two years ago.

NK: I'm sorry.

MS: And he was elderly and it was expected, you know, just thinking back to what I experienced. And, you know, even months later, you know, you just break down. And it's an unfathomable grief, right? So, I can't even, you know, express in words, you know, what many are going through right now, right, that woke up next day without their love doing with them. Or, you know, that until now, we're still trying to recover. You know I've also spoken with folks who were in the area shortly afterwards and witnessed it.

NK: What did they tell you?

MS: Yeah, that they feel like they're reliving it, it's tragic, it's traumatic. And so, you know, my message really is go out and seek support, right? Talk to someone if it's either professional help or just expressing your feelings, know that you're not alone. And that we're not in this alone.

NK: Do you have support?

MS: Yeah, thank you for asking. A friend, I've had many reach out. And again, just before we got on this call, someone reached out and said, yes. And, you know, and I have made arrangements, right? It'll be the first time in my life that, you know, that I'll be reaching out to talk to someone professionally. And I think it's important. I was speaking with one of the first responders, right, you know, who works as a firefighter, and, you know, kudos as well, right, to all of the first responders who were at the scene. You know, I know that it also hits them hard. So, this is a very tragic, traumatic time all around.

NK: What did that first responder tell you?

MS: You know, just how heavily, how heavily it weighs on them as well. And it's something that they carry for many years, if not their lives.

NK: You weren't at this event, as I understand it. But as you have read about it and tried to process what happened before and after, what kind of questions are you and others asking?

MS: Yeah, I think that people are asking, well, what were the things that could have been controlled? You know, we've heard from some media reports people asking about barriers, right? Were barriers in place? Why weren't barriers in places? Like, you know, in other festivals in the city, they said there would be big trucks stationed. So, you know, where were those? Or what protocols were taken with regards to security? There's lots and lots of questions. We understand that there's an investigation underway. So, we hope that it's a very robust and independent investigation, so that all the different things that could have been done that maybe were missed or overlooked can come to the surface so that lessons can be learned and justice served.

NK: What will this mean for your festival? What do you think your festival will feel like this year?

MS: We've been reflecting on this. And, you know, while we have had some folks, right, and we feel this as well, you know, have that hesitation, that fear of, you know, just going out anywhere, right, to any festival. And that's why I really, really think that the investigation is so, so important, so that, you know, we can make doubly sure that the security plan we have in place is as robust as it can be. At the same time, you know, somebody said, you know, today we grieve, tomorrow we rise, right? So, there's also that resolve that, you know, let's not let this, you know, define us. Let's not let our fear overcome us, right? You know, these community gatherings, these celebrations, are such an integral part, you know, of who we are. And it's, I know in Burnaby we have so many festivals that happen. And it is one of the ways that we can really, you know, come out and be together and feel that sense of community. So, you know, we want that to continue. So, it's been heartening, right? You know even though we are still grieving and trying to make sense of what happened, you know, the consensus is we need to go on to show that you know, we're stronger than

NK: Councilor Santiago, I very much appreciate your time. Please take care.

MS: Thank you so much.

CH: Maita Santiago is a city councillor in Burnaby, B.C. and an organizer of that city's Pinoy Festival. She's in Burnaby.

[ambient]

B.C. Pilot Rescue

Guest: Mike MacDonald

CH: Earlier this month, Mike MacDonald was flying above the Sea of Cortez near La Paz in Mexico. The B.C. pilot was transporting a marine biologist, as she tried to spot aquatic wildlife. He's relatively new to the job, but everything was going fine. Until the engine stopped working -- and the plane plunged into the ocean. We reached Mike MacDonald in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico.

NK: Mike, you've been on dry land for a while now, about 10 days or so. How are you feeling?

MIKE MACDONALD: Not bad, still plucking seaweed out of plenty of places, but we're good. [both chuckle]

NK: Okay, and there's a lot of logistics involved in getting back home, back up in the air, all of that. What kinds of things have you been doing?

MM: Well, right now I'm in Cabo San Lucas, which is about a two hour drive from La Paz. I've come to pick up my temporary passport. I got one use out of it. But other than that, yeah, there's been a lot of interviews and reports that I've needed to do with the government officials and it's been an interesting ride. [chuckle]

NK: I bet. Everyone wants to hear the details. I'm glad you're here to take us through it as well because it is quite a story. And we're glad that you're both okay. So, April 18th, take us back, the engine fails. It's just a couple of hours into your trip at that point?

MM: Well, we're just minding our own business at 1,500 feet above the water. We were gonna do one more pass on the far side of the Saralvo Island, but suddenly the engine went dead quiet. I looked up and tried to figure out which way to turn because I realized the island was a little further. So, I did a 90-degree turn to my left and aimed for the shoreline of the mainland. Soon as I made that turn, we started slowing down and couldn't maintain our altitude anymore and was trying to troubleshoot the issue and figured we got three minutes before we hit the water because we're dropping at 500 feet per minute. And at 1,500 feet, that's pretty easy math. [both chuckle]

NK: Well, yeah, even if you're not great at math, you know that that's not a lot of time to do what you need to do and you've got the marine biologist with you. You're trying to stay calm. Are you communicating with her? What are they saying to you?

MM: Yeah, she was obviously very concerned the moment it happened and trying to come to grips with it saying, you're joking, right? This isn't real. You're playing a trick. It's not funny. I said, no, no, this isn't t a joke. Let's just try and figure it out. And I tried to work on what was going on with the engine and just couldn't solve. And I realized I just burned half of my time. And I thought, no, I'm going to give up on that. We are going in the water. So, let's just get ready. So, I reached behind me and grabbed the pillow that she had just for such an occasion and gave it to her to put in front of her face to avoid further injury from broken shards of plexiglass, or anything from the windshield, or debris, and tightened up our harnesses, made sure that our doors were both popped open so water could rush in, and, you know, you've got an option that the door is open all you got to do is go through it.

NK: And what was that moment of impact like?

MM: It was kind of surreal. I saw the water coming at us and I was trying to slow the airplane down. And then, I thought, okay, we're gonna touch down in about five, four, then a sea monster reached up and grabbed us and pulled us straight in. [chuckling] I never got down to the one. And the waves were pretty big that day. They were rolling waves. And the two hours that we were in the water, sometimes it was a little bit calm and then it would roll in again and it was rolling swells.

NK: Two hours in the water. Let me just stop you there and underline that. You recorded a video as you were both in the water waiting for help. We'll play that now.

[sc]

[wind and water roll]

MM: Waitin' to get rescued. Let's see. Might be a while.

[/sc].

NK: Were you worried that help might not come?

MM: No, at that point, we'd already been assured that somebody knew we were in the water. So, I had faith that even way out in the middle of nowhere in Mexico, they're going to have somebody. All the little tour boats were finished for the day and were up on the beach and they all relaunched and went a million different directions looking for us.

NK: So, you didn't even have to call for help at any point because they knew it had happened, or?

MM: In the airplane, we have a couple panic buttons, I guess you could call them. But we had something called Spidertracks, and it's a GPS tracker that shows our company exactly where we are live. My partner there, she pushed the button that sent a signal to the computer screen. It made it flash bright red and set a little alarm off. And the people sitting at their desk realized immediately that something was wrong. They gave us a phone call and my phone was in my pocket under the water line. And I answered the phone call and I couldn't hear anything because the, the sound of the water splashing and a little bit of wind. And I just said into the phone very loudly, we're in the water. We're seven miles east of Punta Arena and 10 miles south east of Ila Seralvo. And I heard her talking to me. She says, I'm already talking to rescue. And then the phone went dead.

NK: You got the pertinent information out in time and they knew where to find you.

MM: That's right.

NK: How is your passenger doing?

MM: She's coming around. Physically, she's fine, but she's been through a tremendous stress. It's quite the ordeal for her. She probably won't ever get into an airplane again -- a small airplane.

NK: I mean, who could blame her after that? But will you get an airplane again? Because you've just been on the job for a few weeks, but you've experienced an engine failure before.

MM: That's true. About two months earlier, I had an engine failure in my own airplane, so. [chuckling]

NK: Are you thinking maybe it's time to take a break?

MM: No, no, no. Think about it. I mean, everybody knows that the stats show that flying an airplane is probably safer than driving a car. Perhaps my stats might not reflect that, but what are the chances it'll happen again? Come on.

NK: I mean, not to be superstitious, but bite your tongue or knock on wood. But in all seriousness, I mean you were able to do what you needed to do in those moments.. But what have both of these experiences now taught you?

MM: I learned a lot about myself. I know that I've been trained by people who knew what they were talking about and that may have been the difference in the outcome.

NK: What caused the engine failure in this instance and the last one?

MM: I really don't know about this one. There's no airplane anymore to be able to look at and figure it out. But the other engine, it blew apart. [chuckling] The connecting rod to one of the pistons shattered and went through the side of the engine and punched a hole in the side of it and it looks like a hockey player missing a few teeth.

NK: Glad you're both okay, Mike. I appreciate your time. Safe travels.

MM: Thank you very kindly for your time.

CH: Mike MacDonald was the pilot of an airplane that crashed into the Sea of Cortez. We reached him in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico.

[hip-hop]

Aggressive Geese

SOUNDCLIP

[forest sounds, a goose honks]

CH: Let's see here -- oh boy, it's a Power Goose. Ah, it's hissing! [whacks and a “Game Over” sound] I better -- aw nuts. I've been playing the video game Goose Encounter Simulator for four years now and I've never gotten past the first Power Goose. My strategy is foolproof: first, I totally panic. Then, I run directly at the goose, while crouching down to appear as tiny as possible. But every time, the Power Goose smacks me around until my Goose Orb implodes. I’m sorry Let me just play this level one more time. I think my problem is I'm not panicking enough.

[honk, hiss, fail]

CH: Aw, my Goose Orb. Hold on a sec: what was that directive the Department of National Defence issued to staff at its Carling Avenue site in Ottawa? See, every year, Canada geese take over the grounds of the site. And it's breeding season, so they will give you a goose egg to protect their goose eggs. Which is why DND has sent out a helpful guide to dealing with them. Where did I -- here it is. According to this, if a goose starts getting aggressive, you should "remain calm and do not panic." Wait: do not panic? [NK chuckles] That’s unorthodox! It goes on, "Try to move away slowly and quietly without turning your back to the goose. Maintain eye contact while you back away.” Also, "If the goose charges or hisses, raise your arms to appear larger and back away slowly.” Now that's some real goose news you can use. Whether you're confronted by a territorial goose at that defence HQ in Ottawa, or in your yard, or playing Goose Encounter Simulator. Which reminds me, let me try out this new approach.

[honk, hiss, button mashing, goose getting distant]

CH: Yes, it worked! The Power Goose departed peacefully and my Goose Orb is glowing mauve at last. So glad I took a gander at that advice -- so the gander would stop taking me.

[lofi]

Part 2: First TIme Voter, Animal Gladiator

First Time Voter

Guest: Ahmad Al Masri

CH: It's Election Day in Canada, and Ahmad Al Masri just voted for the first time. Not just his first time voting in a Canadian federal election; first time he's cast a ballot in any election. Mr. Al Masri immigrated to Canada from Syria in 2020 as a refugee. He grew up and lived under the leadership of Bashar al-Assad’s dictatorship in Syria -- a regime that valued neither freedom of speech nor democracy. We reached Ahmad Al Masri in Montréal earlier today.

NK: Ahmad, how did it feel to finally mark that ballot?

AHMAD AL MASRI: It is a great feeling, to be honest. I did demonstration in Syria and I was about to lose my life for this moment to get freedom to do that so easily here in Canada.

NK: You were protesting there?

AAM: Yeah, I wish people doesn't take it for granted here that they can do it or not. I think everyone should give their vote and practice their freedom of choosing.

AAM: It's so easy. It took me one minute or three minutes to be specific to do that. As I said, if you want to see some changes, give your vote and choose your next government officials, other than just complaining and waiting for the things to be changed by itself.

NK: You lived in Syria until you were 27, then you moved to Dubai for eight years. When you decided to come to Canada, was this part of that decision, the ability to vote, yeah?

AAM: To be honest, no. Like, I was looking for a home. The problem is, like, when I left Syria, it was, like, under war. And there was, like, a revolution against the dictatorship. And while I was living in Dubai, it was a war permit, like you don't get a permanent residency or citizenship in Dubai, regardless of how many years you live there. So, I didn't have a country to go back to. So, I was looking for a country, for a home that I can stay, to have children, to vote, and to give me the power as well to succeed and have a career growth. So, that's what was the main purpose of choosing Canada is to find a secure home. This is what I want.

NK: And now, and after having the chance to do what you hadn't been able to do for your life, in your life until this point, does it make it feel more like home?

AAM: Yes, of course. I believe I belong. I felt I belong today when I was able to use my civil rights to vote.

NK: Ahmad, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you and congratulations.

AAM: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and have a wonderful day.

CH: Ahmad Al Masri is a first-time voter in a Canadian federal election. We reached him in Montréal.

[chiptune]

Animal Gladiator

Guest: Tim Thompson

CH: Tim Thompson has sleuthed out the cause of a death that happened almost 2,000 years ago. The victim -- a gladiator. The evidence -- bite marks on his pelvis. The culprit -- tell you in a minute. The remains were found near York, England and date back to the 3rd century. And what they indicate about how the man died is unique. We reached forensic anthropologist Tim Thompson in Maynooth, Ireland.

NK: Tim, what is it like to solve a mystery like this?

TIM THOMPSON: It's wonderful to look at something like this. It's interesting, exciting, it's challenging as well. I think anytime you look at some sort of archeological case such as this one, it just gives you that really fascinating glimpse into the past.

NK: And what can you tell us about this gladiator in particular? Who was he? What was his life like?

TT: So, this individual was excavated from a cemetery just outside the city of York, which is in the north of England. It was excavated around 20 years ago now. And we've been doing a lot of analysis over the years on him. We can say he's a male, we can say he's what we refer to as a young adult male, so late 20s, early 30s. We know that he was pretty well built, so he did a lot of physical exercise as well, but he also had some pathology. So, he had some issues with his spine, and we can see that he had some dental disease and some plaque buildup as well.

NK: And all of those things, are they unusual for that time, or what other research has revealed about these kinds of fighters?

TT: No, no. So, largely, the pathologies and the features that we're seeing are very much in keeping with the time. I think what's interesting is that when we look at the cemetery as a whole and we look up the number of individuals that were in there, that's where we start seeing that kind of really interesting piece. We can see that the demographic profile of the cemetery, which is largely all male, is very different from a normal population. We can see that they've all got evidence of repeated cyclical hill trauma, particularly on the skulls or on the face, indicative of kind of fighting with right-handed people over and over again. And we can see as well that these individuals have been decapitated, too, which again, is perhaps not uncommon in the Roman period. But the volume and the manner of the decapitation is very different here. And this when we compare it to a couple of other gladiator cemeteries around the world leads us to suggest that this is not just an individual gladiator, but a group of gladiators in this city.

NK: There are bite marks on this gladiator's pelvis. What bit him?

TT: Well, I think that's the really interesting question. So, the bite marks are on the pelvis, they're on the top of the pelvis. So, if you put your hands on your hip, it's basically where your hands would naturally lay. And we can see them on both sides of the pelvis as well. So, it shows that the bite of the animal was, you know, really kind of grabbed onto that pelvis. It's an unusual place for a bite mark. You know, if we think about the sorts of sizes of animals that will cause damage like this, and these are deep bite marks as well, you're talking big cats, big dogs, not just some normal scavenging that you might see. So, usually, with those big animals, they're attacking maybe on the neck or on the head, somewhere slightly different. So, these are unusual bitemarks to be seen. The problem, and I guess one of the exciting things about studying archeological contexts is that you don't know absolutely straight off the bat what's caused that particular injury. So, what we did is that we went and worked with some zoos in England, and we looked at the remains of a whole host of different big animals like lions and cheetahs and so on. And we basically looked at what they were eating. And we analyzed using some 3D modeling the bite marks in our gladiator from York. And then, we also analyzed the bite marks left on the food by these big animals. And we simply did a comparison of the two to help to figure out exactly which animal has caused those damage mods.

NK: And?

TT: We think it's a lion. For sure, we can say it's a big cat, a big animal. We think it is most likely to be a lion, and we know that from the size and the position and the shape of the bite marks that have been left behind, and they match very nicely those left behind from a lion.

NK: Are those bites from this lion what killed this gladiator?

TT: So, we don't think that this was the fatal injury. So, you can --

NK: I don't know if that's worse or better at this point?

TT: [laughing] I know. I know.

NK: They suffered so much.

TT: I'm going to paint a slightly grim image of what may have happened to this poor individual. So, what we think is that because the bite marks are in an unusual position, we think that what has happened is that this individual has been incapacitated in some way. So now, if you get damage to your soft tissue, if you're stabbed, or cut, or something like, or even attacked by a big animal on your soft tissues, that won't necessarily leave a mark on the skeleton. So, it's entirely possible that, and we think entirely likely, that this individual was incapacitated probably through some sort of traumatic injury already. Then, what the lion has done is has bitten him on his hip and dragged that body away as part of the lion's attempt to scavenge and eat the remains there. Now, on top of that, what we also see is that this individual was decapitated, they were cut from the back of the neck through to the front. Now, that might be an execution blow, it could be because the person was dying or was dead already. But that for sure is the last blow that occurred to the body.

NK: I think people, well, if you've seen movies, [both chuckle] films about gladiators, we have an impression that maybe they're fighting animals quite regularly. Was that the reality?

TT: I think that's really interesting. I mean, we certainly have within our kind of cultural understanding the sense of gladiator combat and that gladiators were fighting each other and were fighting big animals all the time. Actually, the evidence for that is scant. Most of the evidence that we have so far around animals fighting humans is in literary written sources, or on murals, or mosaics, and things like that. So, this is the first time that we've actually found physical evidence on a body of a lion attacking a gladiator in some sort. So, actually, it's hard to say how common it was simply because there isn't a huge amount of evidence out there.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Tim. Thank you.

TT: Thank you very much.

CH: Tim Thompson is a forensic anthropologist at Maynooth University. He's in Maynooth, Ireland. And you can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[ambient]

‘60 Minutes’

CH: Bill Owens was the executive producer of 60 Minutes for almost a quarter century. Then, last week, he resigned from the high-profile CBS newsmagazine, saying it had become clear he wouldn't -- in his words -- "be allowed to run the show as I have always run it." He's stepping down while his former network is in the middle of a legal battle with President Trump, who has sued the program over its editing of a Kamala Harris interview, and pressed the FCC to take action against it. The president's approval will also be needed for a merger of CBS's parent company, Paramount. Last night, 60 Minutes broadcast this message, delivered by correspondent Scott Pelley.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT PELLEY: In tonight's last minute, a note on Bill Owens, who until this past week was executive producer of 60 Minutes. He was our boss. Bill was with CBS News nearly 40 years, 26 years at 60 Minutes. He covered the world, covered combat, the White House. His was a quest to open minds, not close them. If you've ever worked hard for a boss because you admired him, then you understand what we've enjoyed here. Bill resigned Tuesday, it was hard on him and hard on us, but he did it for us and you. Stories we've pursued for 57 years are often controversial. Lately, the Israel-Gaza war and the Trump administration. Bill made sure they were accurate and fair, he was tough that way. But our parent company Paramount is trying to complete a merger. The Trump administration must approve it. Paramount began to supervise our content in new ways. None of our stories has been blocked, but Bill felt he lost the independence that honest journalism requires. No one here is happy about it. But in resigning, Bill proved one thing: he was the right person to lead 60 Minutes all along.

CH: Correspondent Scott Pelley, addressing the resignation of former executive producer Bill Owens, on 60 Minutes last night.

[ambient]

Encore: Seagull Eats Squid

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Peter, some people who have watched this video, I am not one of them, [chuckling] described it as savage, even traumatizing. How would you describe what's in that video?

PETER ROCK: I don't have a problem with that description. [NK chuckles] That's exactly what it is. It is nature read in tooth and claw.

NK: But you also have said that this signals not that seagulls are barbaric, as some people might describe this act. You said it signals something else about seagulls. What is that?

PR: You're absolutely right. This is not a barbaric behaviour. This is just the norm. It's, [chuckling] it's to be expected from seagulls that they are going to eat whatever is available. [NK chuckles] And if it happens to be some weakling animal, then they will kill it, and they will eat it.

NK: And you said it suggests that they're smart and calculating and have had to get to this point, right?

PR: Well, actually, they are. They're really very smart, not just for doing this kind of survival behaviour. I mean, food, of course, is the key for everything. And they know how to get it. And for these birds, they know everything about everything within their home range. So, if one food source dries up, they know exactly where to go for something else.

NK: For those who have not seen a still image or any of this, this video, just paint a picture for us. How big is the gull compared to the squirrel? It is swallowing it whole. Let's just make that clear. Like, gulping it right down. [chuckle]

PR: Yeah, well, the bird that you're looking at in that image is exactly the same, well, not. It Is a different species, but it is very, very similar. It's a herring gull. And it is our version of the herring gull. And they are big, as you know. So, yes, it's perfectly possible for the this herring gull to swallow something fairly large. It is funny, you know, when you see them swallow an item that is a bit too big, you get this big bulge in the back of their neck as it's going down, as it goes down the trachea. So it's down their throats, and they're determined not to give it up. So, yes, it is perfectly possible for it to be able to swallow a squirrel. I've seen them eating rats. I've seen them feasting on pigeons and so on. It is a not uncommon thing. Though, this, I have to say, is the first time I've come across a squirrel. [chuckling] So, it just happens to be a novelty. I think.

NK: It will, it's certainly stunned a lot of people. It's surprised a lot of people. So why do you think it is so surprising?

PR: Well, what we're talking about here is people's perceptions. In this country, we have two populations of gulls -- those who breed in the wild, and those that breed in town. Now, those that breed in the wild, out of sight and out of mind. Those that breed in town are right in your face. They do a lot of things that annoy people. And they do look a bit fierce. It has to be said, if you get up close to a herring gull, it's quite a fierce-looking bird. And so, if it does a thing like this, people are shocked into believing that they are really barbaric and they do awful things. Actually, no, they don't. They do the normal things. But people expect them to do this because they have been fed all sorts of wonderful information about how bad these gulls are.

NK: One of the comments on one of the stories about this, this video said, quote, 10 years, good luck to the person that gets blessed with that aftermath, unquote. Speaking a little bit to what you were talking about just there, about the nuisance of gulls, tell us about the aftermath of ingesting a whole squirrel. [chuckling]

PR: Okay. So and they will eat quite a lot of it. Is that we're talking about?

NK: Yes.

PR: We're talking about, about what will happen after they've managed to swallow this thing. Right, okay. So the gulls have got gizzards, which filter out what is good, which then goes down to the gut, and the rest of it will form into what's called a pellet. It's the same way that owls eat. Owls cough up pellets. And so do gulls.

NK: I've had to dissect an owl pellet before in school, and it's a memory that I will never forget.

PR: Well, I'll tell you, a memory that I will never forget. Part of what I do in my research is I am putting bands on the legs of the nestlings. And so, what they then do is to fly off with those plastic bands, and each one has got an engraved code on it. And it helps me to track down what they're doing. Okay? Now, what I'm in the process of doing that I handle these birds, and there was one particular bird that had a bit of a kind of a stick sticking out of his bill. And I think what's going on here? So I took a yank, I took a pull on it, and kept on pulling, and kept on pulling, and kept on pulling. And what it was was one of those little kind of a wooden sticks that you use on barbecues for doing, for doing barbecuing of your little bits of meat. And it was about six inches long. What a shock.

NK: [laughing] What do you --

PR: The bird didn't suffer any ill effects, and nor will the gull, the herring gull who swallowed that squirrel. They never suffer any ill effects. They got cast-iron stomachs.

NK: Lucky them. What do you hope that people will take, you know, apart from this viral video and, and the attention this story is getting, what do you hope people will learn about gulls?

PR: Well, number one, it's quite a good thing that they're killing off your squirrels because here they regarded as the American tree rats.

NK: Ho-ho! Ouch!

PR: And they, they're seeing off our own squirrels. But what would they take from that? Well, it would be another piece of amusement, I think. And it will serve to confirm what they already believe. Either that they understand that this is just a food item that they're due. And that's how life works. And those who believe that gulls are scum, as one newspaper puts it, the scum of the earth, scumbags, they call them. They will just tend to reinforce people's beliefs. That's what I think. But what I'm trying to put forward is the truth about these birds, not the assumptions. See, the pest control industry is making money hand over fist in presenting gulls as the enemies, the seagull menace, all this kind of thing. And in actual fact, they do have quite a lot to teach us, provided we have the ears to listen.

NK: Peter, thank you for your time.

PR: It's a pleasure.

CH: From Our Archives, that was Nil's 2023 conversation with urban gull expert Peter Rock.

[vocalization]

Part 3:

Encore: Samar Abu Elouf

CH: It doesn't just depict a moment, but the aftermath of many moments. A nine-year-old boy sits, staring contemplatively into space, illuminated by warm light. Both his arms have been amputated; he lost them in an Israeli airstrike. The photo, taken by Samar Abu Elouf for The New York Times, was the World Press Photo of the Year for 2025. The boy is Mahmoud Ajjour, and he lives in the same apartment complex in Doha as Ms. Abu Elouf. The Palestinian photojournalist says that when Mahmoud first realized his arms had been amputated, he asked his mother, “How will I be able to hug you?” As we’ve told you before, Samar Abu Elouf documented the war in Gaza with her camera before fleeing the territory with her family in December 2023. Her work now focuses on those, like Mahmoud, who made it out of Gaza -- as they navigate their new lives. Last fall, Ms. Abu Elouf spoke to Nil through an interpreter, after Canadian Journalists for Free Expression honoured her with a 2024 International Press Freedom Award. Here’s part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Samar, I was at the event. I saw you receive the award. I saw everyone get emotional, get on their feet. You were emotional on stage as well. You were weeping. And I wonder what you were thinking in those moments as they gave you this award.

SAMAR ABU ELOUF: [Samar Abu Elouf speaking in her native language]

RANIA AL-AJRASH - INTERPRETER: I remembered that it's very hard for me to be out of my country, Gaza, and far from my family. I remember they're suffering back in Gaza. They're in hunger. They lives in the camps. It's very hard for me to bear this.

NK: You have sisters. You're your mother. You're a daughter. How many people are still there?

SAE: All my family. [Samar Abu Elouf continues talking]

RAA: More people from my family are back in Gaza, and they have never left. And it's very hard for me to think about them because we've been always surrounded by each other with we're always together.

NK: Before the war. What was it that drew you to photography in journalism?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answers the question]

RAA: It was my only way to raise my people in Gaza. The kids, The women. And how much are we suffering. At the beginning, it was very hard for me to thrive in my career because regarding our traditions as a woman, it's very hard to do this job.

NK: There were societal obstacles, like you said, expectations, but also practical obstacles. You had to make your own equipment, your own vest and helmet.

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering the question]

RAA: Everything was very hard for me because of the economy situation back in Gaza. And there's also no one can support me as a journalist. So, I had to make my own.

NK: How does you make that equipment? What did you use?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf telling Nil about it]

RAA: The first thing made me creative about this idea to make the pot as a helmet and the plastic bag as a vest. In 2015, I was on the border and I saw a kid bombed in his head. As a journalist, I wanted to continue in my career, so I had to make my own equipment. It was my only way to send a message to the world that I need a helmet and vest to continue my career.

NK: And when did you get a real helmet and vest?

RAA: [Samar Abu Elouf starts talking interpreter overlaps] So a while after what happened on the border at 2015, she got a real helmet and the vest by Marie Colvin an organization who supports the journalists back home.

NK: You've been honoured for your work before and I want to start talking about your powerful photographs. One of them. It's in a refugee camp. It's a group of Palestinian children celebrating a birthday. Their faces are lit just by candlelight. What do you want people to feel when they look at that picture and know.

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf shares her answer]

RAA: So, this picture was on a [inaudible] refugee camp. So, it represents what these kids, they wish to live, not what they living. I want everyone around the world to see that it's their right to live and to enjoy the life as is any kid around the world.

NK: After October 7th and after the Israeli response to October 7th, which is still unfolding. In the early days of the war what were you doing? How were you covering what was happening?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf starts talking, interpreter continues].

RAA: So as a journalist back in Gaza, we usually, what we do when we hear a bombing or there is an attack, first thing we do is to run. So, the first day when they started bombing Gaza, first thing I did, I took my camera and I took my stuff. And I knew since day one that I will never go back home. [Samar Abu Elouf speaking] So I used to spend days at the hospital and it was the only place for journalists to sleep. And since that day, I stayed away from my kids for 60 days. It was the only way to save them. I had to put them in separate houses.

NK: When you go to a scene to take photographs, it must be so frightening because you don't know who the victims are. And if they are your family.

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf speaking].

RAA: So, the hardest part in this war is the loss of connection. When something happened, I can just call them and check if the bombing is around them or are they safe or not. With this war I have to go look through the victims and hospitals and see if one of my family member might be there.

NK: Have you lost family members [inaudible].

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering.]

RAA: More than 13 people have passed away. I lost them during this war. Cousins, nieces.

NK: I'm sorry for your loss Samar. There have also been an increasing number of journalists killed. That number is going up even today. Lebanese officials say three journalists were killed after an Israeli airstrike in Lebanon. And, of course, the numbers in Gaza at last check, the Committee to Protect Journalists believe, I believe they wrote that more than 130 journalists have been killed just in Gaza. And that's just what they've been able to verify. How do you process those deaths, your colleagues, that number, more than 130?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf gives her answer]

RAA: I always think about them. I always remember them because we have spent so much time together. And they were always supporting me. They were always besides me. I always think about how am I going to return to Gaza. And I will never find them again.

NK: Last year on Instagram you wrote "Every morning, every evening and every moment I ask myself, what photo does the world want to see in order to stop this war?', end quote, How do you answer that question now?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering].

RAA: For the first time of my life, when I take a picture, I feel like this picture is not making any difference. And this makes me so down. Until now, I ask myself which picture would make a difference. But the thing is, the condition on the grounds in Gaza, it's so hard that not any picture can capture or shows what's going back in Gaza. [Samar Abu Elouf speaking again] The numbers of the kids that I had to photograph digging them out of the rubble. It was huge I was shaking while I was documenting this event.

NK: And one of your photographs shows, I believe one of your colleagues holding their dead child.

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering Nil]

RAA: Yes. It's my friend Mohamed Abdul. He's a journalist. He was doing his job. And he got a message that his kids died while the airstrike. And this is what makes us all, as a journalist think about our families, that we could find them at any time.

NK: You and your family through help from The New York Times now live outside of Gaza. You live in Doha. How did you make that decision to leave? Because I can imagine it was difficult.

RAA: [Samar Abu Elouf starts speaking] It was the hardest decision that I have ever made because I lived my whole life. I do this job with passion and love. But at the same time, it was very hard for me to be the reason why I lose my kids or any one of my family member. It was a huge struggle between staying and leaving. But my kids, they can't bear it anymore. They were psychologically tired every time when one of the journalists they pass away, my family get scared more. They were next.

NK: How are you continuing your work now?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf shares her answer]

RAA: So, it's very hard for me to continue my work. There is no work, but what I'm doing in Doha is documenting people's stories who've been evacuated from Gaza and what happened with them.

NK: The world is listening to you now. What do you want people to know about your home, about Gaza?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering]

RAA: All I wanted to say is to stop the war. And I want people, my people in Gaza, to return to their homes. And I want the world to listen. Most of them, they have heard about us but never see us. Maybe they heard wrong stories, not true stories, but they have never came to see us. A lot of people in Gaza are so talented. We're very educated people. And before the war, I used to wish everyone to come and see people in Gaza and meet them. But the war changed everything. And this for journalists, the international journalists who entered Gaza and saw people, they know what I'm talking about.

NK: Samar, thank you. I wish you peace and I hope you get to go home to Gaza one day.

SAE: Thank you so much.

NK: Thank you both.

BOTH: No problem.

CH: That's Palestinian photo-journalist Samar Abu Elouf -- with the help of interpreter Rania Al-Ajrash. That conversation was recorded last October, when Ms. Abu Elouf was awarded a 2024 International Press Freedom Award from Canadian Journalists for Free Expression -- whose co-president is former As It Happens host, Carol Off. Earlier this month, Ms. Abu Elouf was awarded the prize for World Press Photo of the Year 2025. Sharing that news on social media, the journalist wrote: "I always have, and still do, wish to capture the photo that would stop this war."

[Spanish guitar]

Nanaimo Infusion

CH: Certain Americans have let Canadians down recently. But that was not the case on Vancouver Island, over the weekend. You may have heard our interview with Tod Maffin last week. In February, as Donald Trump pushed forward with his tariff threats, the Nanaimo resident put out a call on social media. He suggested a day when Americans who wanted to support his city could come for a visit. That event -- dubbed the Nanaimo Infusion -- happened this weekend. And Americans did not disappoint. At the end of Day One, Mr. Maffin, a journalist and former CBC'er, posted this video on his social media.

SOUNDCLIP

TOD MAFFIN: My heart is, I'm going to get through this without crying 'cause I'm just emotional. My heart is so full from all the, not just the pleasure of seeing all these wonderful people from all over, all over the U.S., South Dakota, Florida, people driving from Texas are here, Wisconsin, I can't, Florida, not just that, but, like, all of the local people who came out. Dude, there are two local people who had set up, like, their own info booth at the park. And they had a sign that said "Adopt an American", and there were index cards filled out by locals, right, local residents. And they would put down, like, their name and their phone number and what they like to do. Like, I like hiking, or I like brunching, and Americans could come up, or any visitor, I guess, and say, oh, these people look like me. And then, they would phone, and then, they would go out together, they would make friends. That is exactly what I wanted to happen. Like, I'm so glad. So, I get asked this all the time, how many people came. I don't know, I don't have a counter, but it sure felt like 400? 300 or 400? More than 200, for sure. Three or 400, I think. Yeah, I don't have a lot to say, other than thank you. Thank you for taking a chance on this stupid idea that I had. [chuckling] Thank you for coming all this way. Thank you for, thank you to Nanaimo for just showing up and being amazing.

CH: Tod Maffin is a digital marketer, business journalist, and former CBC radio host and producer. He was talking about the Nanaimo Infusion on his social media.

[funk]

LEGO Assisted Turtle

CH: Root the wood turtle had become accustomed to missing a foot. He'd done just fine without it for years. But when he came into the possession of the Museum of Natural History in Halifax last September, the staff started to wonder if perhaps they could do something to help. Root still spends most of his time in his own enclosure -- mostly because he's prone to intimidating the other turtles. But he's enjoying newfound mobility in isolation, thanks to a specially crafted set of wheels. The museum's animal care specialist Heather McKinnon Ramshaw told the CBC's Frances Willick about his arrival...and his new ride.

SOUNDCLIP

HEATHER MCKINNON RAMSHA: So, wood turtles are a species at risk in Nova Scotia, so it's something that we would never collect and it's, you know, kind of unusual for us to have. And they're just so beautiful and, I mean, so special. So, I couldn't say no to a wood turtle. And we found that because he's missing a leg, he was kind of falling down as he walked. There was some wear on the shell and we didn't want it to get worse, so he needed something to lift him up. So, we started off with a LEGO wheel and we stuck it on the bottom with some medical tape and a bandage. And we noticed that it really helped having the wheel for support on that side. And then we're like, well, that was really practical because we didn't want to stick anything to a shell and then every time you had to take it for a walk, how would you get this wheel on? So, then we thought of a harness. And so, this is actually just a small dog harness. And then, took some LEGO, and so we had a staff member here actually sew this together and sew the LEGO on the bottom. And so, having LEGO wheels, we're actually able to change out the wheels if we need to. They get worn down, or we're finding these ones are not working as well, we can change, we can give them a tire change.

FRANCES WILLICK: Do you think that he goes faster with that?

HMR: Yes!

FW: Really?

HMR: Yes. We actually noticed that he was exploring more areas. He was up in the Marine Gallery the first time we put it on. And he actually went up the ramp around our Rocky Cove Aquarium. We have a little ramp. He went up to the ramp, and then he kind of slid down. [chuckling] He looked like he was having a good time. And he was, we have a research vessel up in there. So, he was exploring that and going all around. And he seems to go a lot faster with the harness. Actually, the other day, we have a ramp that goes up and he was going up and down the ramp, choosing to go up the ramp and then down the ramp, and up the ramp. So, he seems to be having a good time.

FW: But he's not sliding down it, right?

HMR: No, but the first day he had this on, we were there to catch him, but he did do a little slide, yeah.

CH: Heather McKinnon Ramshaw works for the Museum of Natural History in Halifax. She was talking to the CBC's Frances Willick.

[calypso]

Encore: Magic Circle Apology

CH: Sophie Lloyd is pretty good at misdirection. It's how she made her name as a magician. Well, it's how she made more than one name, actually. In 1991, Ms. Lloyd applied to be a part of the Magic Circle -- a British society for professional and amateur magicians. At the time, it only admitted men. So, she and a friend hatched a plan: she would make herself look like an 18-year-old man, and apply under the name "Raymond Lloyd". And the illusion was so convincing that she got in. Later that same year, the Magic Circle finally decided to accept women. But when Sophie came clean about her trick, she was subsequently banished from the Magic Circle for -- I guess -- being too good at magic. Now, more than 30 years later, the Magic Circle has apologized to her and presented her with an official membership certificate -- under her real name, "Sophie Lloyd". As I mentioned, Ms. Lloyd didn't pull off her deception alone. At the ceremony, Ms. Lloyd dedicated her membership to another magician: Jenny Winstanley. And in 1991, just after Ms. Lloyd was kicked out of the Magic Circle, both Ms. Winstanley and Ms. Lloyd spoke to former host Michael Enright.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Hello, Ms. Winstanley.

JENNY WINSTANLEY: Hello, Michael. Hello.

ME: Hi. Can you hear me all right?

JW: Just about. We're in the club. Where Ray alias Sophie took her test.

ME: And there's a party going on. Obviously.

JW: There is, yeah. There's a celebration going on yeah.

ME: Now, we're going to talk to Sophie in a minute, but I want to get some information from you. Tell me about why she was thrown out of the Magic Circle.

JW: We don't really know. They say it's because she deceived them, but that's exactly what magicians do, isn't it?

ME: That's part of the job. Yeah.

JW: Part of the job. That's right. It's all an illusion. So that seems to be their reason. But I think it is because they can't really laugh about it. You know, they think it, they take it very seriously.

ME: How angry are the magician, the male magicians?

JW: Very mad indeed. We've had a letter from them and, you know, a big warning. You know, they're very, very mad.

ME: Now, Sophie or Raymond was your creation, is that right?

JW: Well, I met Sophie about four years ago, and Sophie is an absolutely brilliant actress. I'm a lady magician. And I've directed Sophie. You know, I'm the magical director. And she acts the part of Raymond.

ME: So you taught her about man magic?

JW: I did, indeed. Yeah.

ME: Did anyone else know Raymond's real identity?

JW: Not a soul. We kept it totally secret, the two of us. For two years. We've worked very, very hard. In all seriousness.

ME: Now, did you originally do this to deceive the Magic Circle? That was your idea?

JW: Well, I always wanted to be first lady in the magic circle. And Sophie said she did it for me because she's such a good actress. I really wanted to prove that women are as good as men.

ME: And you carried it off for two years.

JW: For two whole years we carried it off. And not a soul knew literally nobody.

ME: How did the magic circle find out? Did you fess up or did they discover it.

JW: Well, no. Last couple of Monday's ago women were actually let into the Magic Circle. And so, Sophie confessed, as it were. You know, she thought, well, now it's fine, you know. But in fact, they said, no, no, she couldn't be in because she got it under deception of being Raymond Lloyd.

ME: Well, did she tell the press or did she tell the head of the Magic Circle or...

JW: What we did we, we did tell the press. But when it came out in the papers, the Magic Circle were furious.

ME: Now, Raymond is there. Sophie is there with you.

JW: Sophie is here as Sophie tonight. Would you like to speak to her?

ME: Yes, I would indeed. Thank you.

JW: Thank you very much. I'll pass you over.

ME: All right.

SOPHIE LLOYD: Hi, Michael.

ME: Hello, Ms. Lloyd. How are you?

SL: I'm all right, thank you.

ME: You are now, Sophie. And not Raymond anymore.

SL: Tonight, I'm Sophie. Yeah.

ME: Why did you agree to become Raymond and disguise yourself?

SL: Well, I did it for Jenny. Well, you see, Jenny is a magician, and she's always so unfair that lady magicians couldn't get into the Circle. Yeah, and I just loved the idea. I enjoy acting. And I suppose I did it, really, for Jenny. First lady in the Circle.

ME: She taught you the magic?

SL: She taught me magic, yes. Brilliant magician.

ME: Did you have to pass a test or something?

SL: I had to pass a test. Yes. I did a show for 20 minutes and had her various magic in. And afterwards I spoke to the examiner for 1.5 hours, drinking a pint, [ME: drinking a...] a pint of beer, yes.

ME: And you were dressed as Raymond, as a man?

SL: I was dressed as Raymond, as a boy, actually. He's 18, a very young looking 18 year old.

ME: And clean shaven, of course.

SL: Oh yeah. He's got a bit of a moustache. Not a lot, just a little bit of as we call 'Thumbs up'.

ME: What did you do about your voice? Did you have to drop your voice a bit or.

SL: I know of course, I had croaky little croaky voice.

ME: What did you talk about over the pint for an hour and a half? I mean, weren't you afraid he was going to find out that you weren't...

SL: Well, yes, absolutely. I was really, really worried. Just got through the show. I was going to shoot off, and he wanted to talk to me, and I said oh, get me out of here, Jenny, for God's sakes. And she said, No, I can't you've got to do it. So, I thought oh hell. So I sat there and we talked about, he was going to help me with my magic [laughs through words].

ME: Sophie, did you wear a baggy suit or something? I mean, you know, Raymond and Sophie don't exactly look alike. I'm wondering what you did about that.

SL: No. Well, ah, that's the illusion. Well, I had to do a lot of different things. It wasn't just don a wig and spectacles. I mean, I had to do a lot of things, and I didn't strap down my chest, no we're a bit cleverer than that. I had to obviously have a little boy's body; you know.

ME: Yes.

SL: So, you know, without letting, you know, too much [ME laughing]. So it wasn't just literally putting on a wig and glasses and a baggy suit and going out and doing it. I actually studied the character for two years. And, you know, with Jenny and I did it very well. I also got on children's books as a little boy. I did quite a lot of things.

ME: Did you go to the club? Was it I mean, was it, did you fraternize with the other members and so on?

SL: Yes, I did. Yes. On a couple of occasions I did. Yes. It was very hairy and I have to confess, I didn't stay very long. [inaudible] I'm only five foot two, around these huge man, you know, But I don't think I thought he was an oddity. I think they just thought he was terribly young.

ME: The people who run the Magic Circle, all those male magicians are furious. They're having rabbits over all of this.

SL: They're such twits. I mean, honestly, I really, Michael, it is pathetic. I, I am actually, you know, to be honest, I'm not into magic. I really. I did it to Jenny. I'm not. And this is really, to me, it's really put me off, you know, But just to grind them up, [laughs over words] as Raymond.

ME: And so does Raymond now retire?

SL: No, no. A lot of people want Raymond. A lot of people want to see the little chappy.

ME: Congratulations. It sounds terrific.

SL: Thanks, Michael.

ME: Take care. Enjoy your party tonight.

SL: Okay. Alright, thank you very much.

ME: Goodbye now.

CH: From Our Archives, Jenny Winstanley and Sophie Lloyd speaking with Michael Enright in 1991.

The AIH Transcript For April 28, 2025

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