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The AIH transcript for April 14, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: One wrong and no rights. El Salvador's President says he can't return a man who was mistakenly deported and imprisoned to the United States. Our guest says he certainly can, he just doesn't want to -- and neither do his friends in the White House.

CH: Peace talks in Russia, missile strikes in Ukraine. After a deadly attack on the city of Sumy, a Ukrainian MP tells us Russia is making its true goals very clear.

NK: Hot buttons issue. The Liberal Party confirms two staffers planted Trump-style campaign buttons at a Conservative political conference. A CBC News journalist tells how she stumbled on that story in an Ottawa bar.

CH: Stopping the music. Canadian singer/songwriter T. Thomason tells us he had no choice but to cancel an upcoming gig in the U.S. -- because it no longer feels safe to travel there as a trans artist.

NK: Sweating the small stuff. An Edinburgh man embarks on a huge project to create tiny versions of hundreds of pubs across the city. He explains how he's gone about lowering the bars.

CH: And...cawing the shots. Scientists find a certain bird can identify shapes that don't belong -- more crushing evidence that we are, in fact, inferior to crows.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that explores what goes on behind crows' doors.

[theme]

Part 1: Wrongful El Salvador Deportee, Election Buttons, Edinburgh Miniature Pubs

Wrongful El Salvador Deportee

Guest: Nicole Hallett

CH: If Kilmar Abrego Garcia's family and friends imagined he'd be home soon, those hopes were dashed today. The Maryland man has been in a prison in El Salvador since the Trump administration deported him by mistake. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the Trump administration must facilitate his return. And the government says it will let him into the United States -- if El Salvador decides to send him back. Today Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele visited the White House. Here's what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

NAYIB BUKELE: How can I return him to the United States? It's like I smuggle him into the United States, or what do I do? Of course, I'm not going to do it. It's, like, I mean, the question is preposterous. How can I smuggle a terrorist into the United States? I don't have the power to return him to the United States.

CH: Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele speaking today at the White House. Nicole Hallett is the director of the Immigrants' Rights Center at the University of Chicago Law School. We reached her in Chicago.

NK: Nicole, is there anything actually stopping President Bukele from returning Mr. Garcia?

NICOLE HALLETT: Well, President Bukele wasn't ordered to return Mr. Garcia to the United States. The United States government was ordered to facilitate his return. So, all President Bukele would need to do is to release Mr. Garcia into the custody of the United States government and then the U.S. government can fly him back into the United States. So, no one is asking President Bukele to smuggle him into the United States, and i'm not exactly sure why he believed that to be the question.

NK: And the tone and the way that question was answered, what do you take away from that at this stage in this case, and this man's life?

NH: Well, I think both President Trump and President Bukele were thumbing their nose at the Supreme Court by each claiming that they didn't have the power to do anything to bring Mr. Garcia back. And it's just simply not the case. The president of El Salvador was not actually asked to release Mr. Garcia. President Trump could make that request. That is, in fact, what the Supreme Court has ordered him to do. And yet, the administration is taking the position that the Supreme Court has ordered them to do nothing at all. And it's a very serious violation of the rule of law

NK: If the Trump administration was going along with the ruling, could they actually compel Bukele to send Kilmar Abrego Garcia home?

NH: Of course the Trump administration could not compel a foreign sovereign nation to do something, but I think that this case is really extraordinary. And in this case, I think there is no question that the Trump Administration could get El Salvador to release Mr. Garcia. El Salvador has, in my understanding, is a contract with the U.S. Government to hold migrants that the Trump administration has deported there. My understanding is that the Trump administration is paying the government of El Salvador to hold people for the U.S. government. And so, unlike two sovereign nations who are engaged in diplomatic negotiations, in this case, El Salvador is really acting like an agent of the U.S. government. And there's absolutely no evidence that if the United States really asked and said please return Mr. Garcia, that El Salvador wouldn't do that for the Trump administration given the relationship they have developed and the fact that the United States government is paying for the people to be imprisoned.

NK: The government has conceded this deportation was a mistake. Why do you think the White House insists that it cannot help bring him back?

NH: I think that the Trump administration would like to operate without any judicial oversight at all. They have a mission to deport as many people as they possibly can -- up to a million people in the first year of their administration. And I think they see the courts as a potential obstacle to that because, of course, people have due process. And under the normal course of events, you can't just support people without giving them their day in court. So, I think that they're planning on making this an example, so that in the future when they try to deport other people they are not subject to judicial oversight. I think it's also possible that they do not want Mr. Garcia to come back because, undoubtedly, he would speak to the press. And he might tell all of us what he had undergone, how he was treated, and what happened to him while he was imprisoned in El Salvador. And I do not think the administration want that to be made public because of the deplorable conditions we know that these individuals are being subjected to in El Salvador.

NK: We heard the claims that Bukele has made, and the Trump administration has repeated those claims. Is there any evidence to show that what they're saying, that there's any truth to what they are saying?

NH: Well, I mean, they're claiming that he's a member of MS-13. An immigration judge rejected that allegation, the evidence -- the, quote, evidence -- that he the member of MS-13 was provided by a discredited police informant. And the police didn't even believe that he was actually a member. So, they're using this as a pretext. They don't actually care whether the people that they're deporting are members of gangs. They're trying to portray them as gang members and as terrorists because they're hoping that we, the American people, decide that we don't care about them because they've been put in those categories. But the truth of the matter is, is that if Mr. Garcia doesn't get his day in court, then the administration can do this to anybody. It can do it to any non-citizen. It could do it to me. It could to any U.S. citizen. Because unless you have a review of government action in court we have no idea what the truth of the government's allegations are. And the fact that we're even having this conversation is frankly pretty disturbing.

NK: And he has repeatedly denied these allegations, Kilmar Abrego Garcia has, over and over again. What would you want our listeners to know about him? What do you know about outside of what has happened to him?

NH: Well i'm not representing him, but here's what I know. I know that he has, since he was granted protection by an immigration court, I know he's gotten married. I know that he has a U.S. citizen child. I know he's been employed. And my understanding is that he was living a quiet life. And there were absolutely no allegations that he was up to anything nefarious. You know, we have always prided ourselves on being a nation of immigrants. And moreover, that we're a nation that protects people from persecution when they're, when they're fleeing violence, or when they're fleeing harm in their home countries. And the fact that we would do that someone that we acknowledge was at risk of torture and persecution in El Salvador is a betrayal of fundamental American values.

NK: I appreciate this, Nicole. Thank you for your time.

NH: Thank you so much.

CH: Nicole Hallett is the director of the Immigrants' Rights Center at the University of Chicago Law School. She’s in Chicago.

[wistful instrumental]

Election Buttons

Guest: Kate McKenna

CH: “Stop the Steal” very much sounds like a slogan brought to you by Donald Trump. And when that phrase appeared on buttons at the conservative Canada Strong and Free Networking Conference in Ottawa last week, it seemed like maybe the Conservative campaign was taking a leaf from the U.S. President's book. But the buttons didn't belong to the Conservatives. They were left there by two staffers at the centre of the Liberal campaign. Staffers Liberal leader Mark Carney says have now been reassigned.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: Look, this is totally unacceptable, to be absolutely clear. And I, on behalf of my campaign, I was unaware of this behaviour. But on behalf of my campaign, I apologize for it unreservedly. I've made it absolutely clear to my campaign that this behaviour, or anything approximating it, or in that spirit is unacceptable, cannot happen, cannot happen again. The responsible people for this issue have been reassigned within the campaign.

CH: That story broke Friday in an unusual location: the bar D'Arcy McGee's near Parliament Hill, where those Liberal staffers talked about their buttons -- within earshot of the CBC's parliamentary reporter Kate McKenna, who had been reporting from the conference. We reached her in Montreal.

NK: Kate, I can't believe I'm starting an interview this way, but a journalist walks into a bar. both chuckle] What did you hear when you sat down?

KATE MCKENNA: Yeah, so I sit down for a chat with my friend. And while I'm there, the person next to me, who had previously identified himself to me as somebody in the war room, started talking about how he had planted these buttons at this event. He wasn't speaking directly to me at that time, but I stopped him and I said, whoa, was that you guys? And initially, he said yes, but then when I said I was going to do a story on that, he tried to backtrack a little bit. But at that point, you know, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. He had confirmed that he had done it. And so, I left the bar shortly after, and then the next day I put in a media request to the Liberals and the Liberals didn't deny it. And, in fact, have now confirmed it. So, that's how it happened.

NK: And now, as our listeners heard, have apologized. Mark Carney has apologized, said he didn't know anything about this. So, that's what happened at the bar. If we go back to the conference you were at, these buttons. Tell our listeners a little bit about what they looked like, where they were left.

KM: It was strange. I was in the hallways and I'd see these buttons. Like I saw one, one says Stop the Steal, and that's probably the most consequential one because it's a reference to the Donald Trump 2020 movement, like a very MAGA-coded phrase to seek to overturn the U.S. Election results. So, I saw that one and I thought, ah, if that's a Canadian conservative who made that, that's noteworthy because the Liberals are often trying to tie the Canadian conservative movement to the American conservative movement, which is in a sense somewhat politically toxic at this time, as much of the election is about Donald Trump, right? So, I sought to do journalism on these pins thinking that they were kind of organically produced by conservatives and handed out at this. So, it was particularly shocking to me later at the bar when I found out that it was a liberal oppo mission, but that was just one of two pins. The other pin had the name of the national campaign director for the Conservatives, Jenny Byrne, crossed out with the name Kory Teneycke underneath. Kory Teneycke is a long-time Conservative strategist who's been very critical of how the Federal Conservatives have run their campaign.

NK: And talking about infighting, alleging that there's infighting in the campaign as well.

KM: Yeah, yeah. So, such a pin, an onlooker might come to the conclusion that somebody is trying to highlight divisions within the Conservative Party.

NK: Why do you think they would do this, Kate?

KM: I'm sure they were instructed. These are people who are quite central to the campaign. They work for the party. They're in the war room. That is the central campaign. And it is normal for political parties to play tricks like this on the other political parties. It's not publicized a lot because it doesn't get made public very often, but oppo teams, they're called, they do do stuff like this. And buttons in particular are kind of a technique that's been used by Liberals and Conservatives in the past. But why would he do it? I mean, to kind of understand that you'd have to talk to them directly. But we can kind of read into the fact that, you know, these are Donald Trump-like messages that they're planting at Conservative events. They're trying to tie Donald Trump to the conservative movement in Canada. That could repel some voters, right? But that doesn't work when this becomes public. [chuckling] Because then now, people start questioning, well, what's real, what not real? And this is certainly not a story that the Liberal Party would have wanted to be made public.

NK: And what kind of impact do you think it might have on both campaigns at this stage?

KM: Now the Liberals have apologized for it. Whether or not this will be the end of the story remains to be seen, but it certainly undercuts Mark Carney's message a little bit that, you know, they're the steady hand, they're this stable hand, they're the calm people who are best suited to navigate these challenging times in Canada. It's not in line with their message. As for the Conservatives, a number of their MPs have posted our story online and that sort of thing. Will it fundamentally change the trajectory of this campaign? Probably not. But it is something that I felt was worth marking.

NK: Well, it's certainly a glimpse into how political parties operate, as you've said. And often, listeners and viewers don't get that glimpse. The Conservative Party, how have they reacted since you published?

KM: Well, I sought their response before I published, and they said, they call this dirty tricks. They said that it's actually the Liberals who are importing American-style politics into Canadian discourse by doing something like this. So, that's been their response so far.

NK: Do you think voters will be satisfied with what you've heard from the Liberals on this -- and Mark Carney in particular?

KM: Well, one thing I've heard a lot of today, since Mark Carney said that these staffers have been reassigned to other parts of the campaign, some people believe that they should be removed from the campaign altogether. Partisan Conservatives have messaged me saying that. I have a feeling that because Mark Carney apologized, that will be sufficient for the vast majority of people. But obviously, it's something we're going to be keeping an eye on. And we'll, of course, be applying a critical eye to kind of all hijinx in this campaign to make sure that we're not being fooled by a party trying to make hay over something.

NK: Appreciate it, Kate, thanks for your time.

KM: You're welcome.

CH: Kate McKenna is a senior parliamentary reporter with the CBC. We reached her in Montreal.

[light rock]

Edinburgh Miniature Pubs

Guest: Keith Crawley

CH: At the heart -- maybe the liver -- of a lot of neighbourhoods is the local pub. And no two pubs are exactly alike. Some may be similar to one another -- but each has its own idiosyncrasies, distinctive features that endear them to their patrons. Edinburgh artist Keith Crawley is trying to capture the individual characteristics of his city's many pubs. He's been painstakingly creating miniature models of them, taking great care to capture all their detail. We reached Mr. Crawley in Edinburgh.

NK: Keith, at this point, do you consider yourself an expert on Edinburgh's pubs?

KEITH CRAWLEY: No. [NK chuckles] I'm not a big frequenter of the pub at all.

NK: Oh! You love their architecture then?

KC: Yeah, I mean, it's a variety of different buildings. That's the one thing I've learned over the years is that it's not so much the pub. The building is built with the pub in mind. The pub usually comes long after the building has been built.

NK: And this all started with the building you live in. You were making a model of your own home and you were using a 3D printer to do it. How did that turn into this project that we're talking about now?

KC: Yeah, well, once I built a model of the house, I posted it on Instagram and a family friend spotted it and asked if I could make a model for their house that they grew up in from many years ago. And it was at that point I realized, this is quite good fun, but I'd like to make something that a lot of people can recognize. So, from that point on, I thought pubs, everyone knows pubs. Pubs are local landmarks. You know, whenever you're given directions to somewhere, you might say, well, you stays along the road from The Pear Tree, and you'll go, oh yeah, I know where you are now. So, I thought pubs are a safe bet, can't go wrong there. And the very first one I built was the Auld Hundred, which is on Rose Street, purely because it has that very Edinburgh new town look about it.

NK: And what is that look, for out listeners who haven't had the pleasure?

KC: Oh, you're talking a building probably from the early 18th or mid-18th century. So, it's very small, the windows are small, and it tends to be all self-contained. And so, I thought, well, I'll tackle that one, which was a bit unfortunate because it also happens to have one of the most difficult roofs I've ever had to build as well.

NK: What makes it so hard?

KC: If you ever look at, even if you go into Google Earth or Google Street View and just look up the Edinburgh Old Town, and a lot of the old buildings are, they're higgledy-piggledey, that's the only way to describe them. They tend to have things extended, added on over the years, over the centuries, and then you're trying to work out, how does this all look? So, a lot the pubs I build now, they've got complicated roofs too, but I can see where they're coming from.

NK: Yeah, and now you're more experienced at it. How many have you done now?

KC: I've done 12, and I've got another two in the pipeline as I'm speaking. Yeah, this isn't going to end anytime soon.

NK: And in terms of your process, because these are very realistic, take us through how you make them so.

KC: Well, as an example, Greyfriar's Bobby, the pub, where I would probably go into somewhere like Google Earth or Street View so I can get a quick idea of what the building looks like, the shape. At that point, I'm only really looking for the actual physical details, not really the artwork, the paint style, things like that. And that only gets me so far, so what I tend to find is I'll have to go up and visit the place in person. Sometimes, more often than not, you have to go in the back because the old Google streetcar can't get up there. And I'll take lots of photographs, just even of small, minor details. Because I got caught out once when I photographed a building, came back home, and then realized I didn't know what was lying at the side of those windows. And I thought, oh, I had to get back on the bus the next day, [NK chuckles] photograph it again.

NK: Committed to those details.

KC: Normally, when you're photographing something, even on a holiday, you're just going that looks really nice, snap, snap. But you're having to really dig and have a really good route around. But thankfully at the time I was photographing Greyfriar's there was loads of tourists, so I just blended in. So, I don't feel awkward. But once I've got the photographs I'll come back home and I'll build the model in the computer. And then from that, I'll get all the sides of the building done, even if it's attached to the side of a building. That's a blank space, so therefore, that'll be a blank wall. Then once I've done that, I'll print it out on a 3d printer. And I usually use a filament printer, you know the ones with the big spools? And that can take quite a few hours to get done but once I got all those parts, I can then glue them together. And then, I'll prime the model and I'll paint it up all brickwork, everything else.

NK: How long does it take?

KC: It can take, depending on the building, it can take from about three days up to a week.

NK: So, you've got two in the pipeline still, you said, and you want to do all of the pubs in Edinburgh. So, how long do you think you'll be doing this project?

KC: Well, I looked it up and one of the numbers I saw was 385 in the city centre.

NK: Oh my!

KC: So, you're talking about, what, eight years? Maybe nine years?

NK: Are you ready for that kind of commitment?

KC: I hope I'll live long enough! [both laugh]

NK: Well, knock wood. Knock wood that you'll get to do it.

KC: Exactly.

NK: You know, there's something, what is it about miniatures that most of us love so much? Why are they such a draw to us, do you think?

KC: I've actually been asking myself that question for the last few weeks. And I think, I remember back to when I was visiting museums and they would always have the miniature displays of things like trains or there's little Stone Age villages or things like that. And you're getting to see a whole world in one go. So, you're able to really, really just throw yourself into it. But it's the details. It's seeing these tiny little details being replicated. And you always wonder how on earth did they do that? It's not really an easy answer, you only have to look at a miniature or something and you just get lost in it. I can spend ages looking at them, that's the thing! [both chuckle]

NK: It's been a pleasure speaking with you, Keith. Thank you.

KC: Thank you.

CH: We reached artist Keith Crawley in Edinburgh.

[diner rock?]

Crow Geometric Regularity

CH: Humans don't have a lot to brag about these days. But there's one thing we've always counted on. Just listen to this newsreel from 1933.

SOUNDCLIP

[1930's showtune]

CH SPEAKING IN AN OLD FILTER: In the latest news from Hollywood, the giant ape who stars in the blockbuster movie King Kong has announced he's considering a run for the U.S. Presidency. And in the world of science, it's official. Extensive research has proven that only humans can detect geometric regularity. Better luck next time, animal kingdom. Meanwhile in sports... [fades out].

CH: Or there’s this news report from the early '70s.

SOUNDCLIP

[dated news theme]

CH SPEAKING THROUGH ANOTHER FILTER: The Prime Minister commented that it is neither far out, nor groovy. In fact, it is a bummer. Turning now to science, good news as researchers once again confirm that human beings are the only species capable of recognizing geometric regularity, commented the study's lead author, what, did you think birds could do it? Ha ha ha. [fades out].

CH: Yep, no matter what, only we could detect geometric regularity. And no one would ever take that away from us. Until today. "Claiming...that only humans can detect geometric regularity is now falsified," Cognitive Neurobiologist Andreas Nieder told NPR, heartlessly. And what creature has snatched this ability from us, and flown to the top of a tree right outside our window, where it's cawing at top volume while we're trying to sleep in? The crow. Look, I don't have to explain that geometric regularity is when a bunch of shapes are the same. If a scientist gives you a piece of paper with five squares and a pentagon on there, you, as a human, will recognize that the pentagon doesn't belong. And then, you'll high-five the scientist. Except now, we've learned that Mr. Nieder and his colleagues ran a bunch of tests on two crows that live in their lab. And those crows got better and better at guessing which shape was the outlier -- even when it was only slightly different from the others. So, thanks a lot, crows. We prided ourselves on our exclusive ability to find geometric regularity. And now, that's gone. And we're all bent out of shape.

[Brittpop]

Part 2: Sumy Missile Deaths, Trans Musician Travel

Sumy Missile Deaths

Guest: Ivanna Klympush Tsintsadze

CH: Since Donald Trump took office, there's been a lot of discussion of a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine. During the presidential campaign, he said, "I'll have that done in 24 hours." But two-plus months into his presidency, it's clear that peace is still a long way off. On the weekend, a Russian missile strike hit the Ukrainian city of Sumy. At least 34 people were killed, and a further 117 injured. Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, said, quote, the strike hit right in the heart of the city on Palm Sunday. Only completely deranged scum can do something like this. Unquote. And today, there are reports of another attack on Sumy. Ivanna Klympush Tsintsadze is a Ukrainian MP. We reached her in Kyiv.

NK: Ivanna, we're hearing about further attacks on Sumy today. What is the latest you know about what is happening?

IVANNA KLYMPUSH TSINTSADZE: Yeah, that's exactly what has happened just a couple of minutes, basically, ago, or half-an-hour ago. As far as I understand, this ballistic attack by, again, ballistic missile today was hitting the suburbs of Sumy so far. Thank God, there are no reports of the killed or injured people there.

NK: Why is Sumy being targeted, in your view?

IKT: Well, I think the whole country is being targeted, you know. It's Sumy yesterday and today, but a couple of days before that, that was Kryvyi Rih, and before that, that was a very concentrated attack on Odesa. So, it is terrorizing Ukrainian population just to make sure that people are scared, are in fear, are, you know, feeling desperate. And maybe, you know, changing the whole resolve of the nation for this resilience that is, thank God, still there with the society and with the communities.

NK: What do these latest strikes, Ivanna, say to you about the likelihood of a peace agreement being reached and reached soon?

IKT: Well, I am one of those people who have been very skeptical with regard to the, you know, quick solution that was kind of anticipated and promised by many, and all the hopes that were rising, all the hope that were raised across the globe. I think it's very demoralizing and demotivating because the Russian Federation does not show any sign and even the shade of the intention to actually stop this barbaric aggression against Ukraine. And their willingness to rule by the might, and to change the rules of the game. And so, they are interested in making sure that their way of looking at history and at the future and at the present would be the one defining the future of European continent and Ukraine for that matter as part of it.

NK: Where do those talks go now, as you see it? We know on Friday, Steve Wilcoff, the U.S. Envoy, met with Russian President Vladimir Putin. The U.S. is still saying, still signaling, that peace talks with Russia are happening. What do you say?

IKT: Russia understands only the language of pressure, of unity, of strength and of power. It cannot be talked into peace because Russia has started this war totally unprovoked with no reason besides the very fact that they just don't want to accept the existence of the Ukrainian nation and Ukrainian state and our right to pursue our own goals and our own future and our own choices. And so therefore, I think it has to be understood what is the real, what are the real intentions of the Russian Federation vis-a-vis Ukraine, vis-a-vis Europe, vis- a-vis international global order, and vis- a-vis international peace. Once this would be understood, that would have to change the behaviour of common West. So, at this particular point, I do not see this unity that would ensure this continued pressure on the Russian Federation. And I think Russia feels, you know, indulged for additional attacks. And that's why it wants to, by these additional new terrorist attacks that it is waging across Ukraine, it wants to maybe in their sick minds to gain additional leverage for the negotiations for them to be resulting in the acceptance of the Russian terms. Thus, meaning capitulation of Ukraine and destroying and eradicating of the Ukrainian nation.

NK: British Prime Minister Keir Starmer has condemned the attacks, French President Emmanuel Macron urging a ceasefire. Do you feel the level of support and specific support from the wider world at this stage, Ivanna, that leads you to believe this will end, and end with Ukraine being able to keep what it has now?

IKT: We definitely see how many of the European nations are standing up to the challenge right now, at least in their attempts to coordinate their activities and in their readiness and willingness to upscale their support to Ukraine. But at the same time, I think, at this point, we are still in this continuous rounds of consultations and negotiations among the partners. While it's urgent for all of them to get into very specific concrete actions, starting from additional pressure on the Russian Federation, and going into additional possibilities -- military possibilities -- for Ukraine to be able to preserve and defend its civilian population. But also, to push back on the frontline.

NK: Ivanna, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

IKT: Thank you so much.

CH: That was Ukrainian MP Ivanna Klympush Tsintsadze. We reached her in Kyiv earlier today.

[sombre instrumental]

SOD: ONT. Female Speaker

CH: Today, for the first time since the election in February, the Ontario Legislature was back. And politicians had one matter of business to discuss: selecting a new speaker. Normally, that process might not be that newsworthy. But today was different. That's because the race was between two women: Progressive Conservative MPP Donna Skelly, and New Democrat MPP Jennifer French. So, no matter the outcome, the legislature would get its first-ever female speaker. Here's what it sounded like when Ms. Skelly was selected.

SOUNDCLIP

[clapping and cheering]

DONNA SKELLY: Wow, thank you, thank, thank you. Thank you, Premier. Thank you, MPP Stiles, MPP Fraser. Thank you all. Jennifer, thank for putting your name forward and truly making this a genuine democratic process. [clapping] I am so honoured, and I feel so privileged that you put your trust in me to be the 44th Speaker of the Ontario Legislature. But more importantly, I'm so humbled that I'm the first woman in provincial history. Thank you.

CH: That was the sound of the Ontario Legislature selecting its first female speaker, Progressive Conservative MPP Donna Skelly. That's our Sound of the Day.

[hip-hop]

Mario Vargas Llosa Obit

CH: Yesterday, after a lifetime as a towering Latin American writer, politician, and thinker Mario Vargas Llosa died at the age of 89. Over his long career, Mr. Vargas Llosa wrote a multitude of plays, novels, and essays, covering everything from love to politics, as well as stories from his own life. He was one of the key writers to spark an explosion of interest in Latin American literature, in the 1960s. In 2010, he won the Nobel Prize for Literature. The veteran Peruvian intellectual also ran for president in that country's 1990 election. By then, he had moved away from his socialist ideas, and become a free-market conservative. In 1995, he told Eleanor Wachtel, host of Writers and Company, why he'd wanted to run for office -- despite being a writer at heart.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIO VARGAS LLOSA: I still think that I was moved with the idea to lead a movement to modernize the country, to fight the old ills of Peru, and to try to take advantage of all the extraordinary opportunities that there are now in contemporary life for a country to fight against underdevelopment, against poverty, against ignorance.

ELEANOR WACHTEL: But, you know, politics is, I mean, you're a very sophisticated writer and a very sophisticated thinker. And politics is about power. And power is something that you've always been very --

MVL: Reluctant to --

EW: Very uneasy around. And --

MVL: Yes. Oh yes, and one of the things that I admire in literature is that I think literature is one way that we have to resist power, to criticize power, to establish in a society a kind of counter-power, something through which we can at least reduce all the the damage that political power can produce in a society. But on the other hand, if you want changes, economic changes, social, cultural changes, there is no way to avoid politics. You must accept that politics is the instrument to produce a better society and to produce modernization and to reduce injustices. But that explains, to me, psychologically why I was --

EW: Seduced.

MVL: Seduced with the idea of going into practical politics.

CH: Nobel Prize-winning novelist Mario Vargas Llosa, speaking to Writers and Company host Eleanor Wachtel in 1995. Mr. Vargas Llosa died yesterday, at the age of 89.

[Lovers in a Dangerous Time, as performed by T. Thomason/light rock]

Trans Musician Travel

Guest: T. Thomason

CH: Canadian singer/songwriter T. Thomason, with his cover of Bruce Cockburn's Lovers in a Dangerous Time. And if you're T. Thomason, it is a dangerous time. The Halifax-based musician is trans. And he was scheduled to play at a U.S. music festival next month. But in a video posted on Instagram, he shared some bad news with fans.

SOUNDCLIP

T. THOMASON: This is not a super fun video to make, I'm gonna try to keep it quick, keep your attention. I am pulling out of the Allroads Festival in Maine that I was booked to play on May 16th and the 18th. That's because it doesn't feel safe for me to go across the border into the States as a Canadian trans guy. I just don't feel like it's worth the risk. So, I want to thank Allroads for booking me because I would have loved to be there with you. And thank you for understanding and being so supportive.

CH: We reached T. Thomason today in Toronto.

NK: T, you've had a couple of days now to sit with that decision. How are you feeling about it today?

TT: Yeah, I'm feeling like it was the right thing and there's not really any other options, so I'm pretty at peace with it, even though the circumstances are obviously, like, horrible. [chuckle]

NK: Yeah, it's not an easy decision. And you talked about that as well. And you also talked about concerns for your personal safety as a Canadian trans man traveling in the United States. What have you heard and what have you seen that makes that such a deep concern at this stage?

TT: I mean, I think there was a story out of the West Coast of Canada, and I can't remember the woman's name off the top of my head, but there was the Canadian woman who was detained and held in the States for a couple weeks. And just hearing that she was a cis, white, middle-class woman, Canadian woman, and if that can happen to her, that makes me really concerned for what could happen to a trans person when the rhetoric in the States is so strongly focused on villainizing and demonizing trans people at the moment with a lot of misinformation. It's just the unknown, you know? It's like you just don't know when you're trying to go across the border how much information pops up on that border officer's screen. Like, would they know if I had changed my gender marker? I don't know if they have access to that information. I went through the border in February to New York and it was totally fine, but I don’t know if things have changed between now and then.

NK: You're certainly not the only Canadian trans artist who is in a similar situation making these kinds of decisions, being forced to make these kinds of decisions in some cases as well. More broadly speaking, in terms of the impact on young artists in the Canadian music industry, what kind of impact do you see this having?

TT: I think it's really important that people understand that what we're talking about now is the inability for artists to get visas. When you apply for a work visa to go to the U.S. to do creative work, you apply through what's called the American Federation of Musicians -- the AFM. And they are the ones who represent you to the U.S. Immigration Services. So, you're not dealing with them directly, but because of the U.S.'s policy now that they will only recognize two genders, male and female, and those are what you were assigned at birth, the AFM now can't process visa applications by people who have a gender marker on their passport -- Canadian passport -- which is not in line with what they were assigned to birth. So, just to make that really, really clear for people, and what that means, what it means now that artists can't access that market is that we are cut out of the biggest music market in the world. And we now have to pivot and export to, if we want to export, export to countries like the U.K. or countries in Europe, which are much more expensive to get to. So, there's now this, like, extra pressure -- financial pressure -- there. And beyond that, for developing artists, if you're one of a few artists that a manager or a record label is considering working with and they're kind of weighing up all the pros and cons of each artist that they're considering working with and you're the one artist that can't export to the U.S., can't engage with that major, biggest market in the world, it's quite likely that maybe it's not out of transphobia or anything, but it's purely business decision that you will get overlooked or you'll get passed over for opportunities to grow your team.

NK: In an already very difficult industry to get noticed in. What, if anything, would you like to see from players, you know, people with power in the Canadian music industry to help mitigate that kind of loss of that market for you and other trans artists?

TT: What I'm really hoping is that we'll see organizations like Factor and the Socan Foundation and the provincial music industry organizations that provide funding for artists, not all of the provincial organizations do, but some of them do. So, I'm really hoping that these organizations that exist, um and provide funding will create new streams that are specifically for trans artists to access under these circumstances to help, yeah, mitigate this situation that we've been forced into.

NK: You know, I'm thinking, I was mentioning that other artists are in a similar situation. Your friend, Belz Larsen, certainly one of them. What kinds of conversations are you having together about how to move forward?

TT: You know I'm hearing a lot of frustration. And I think it's hard to watch your peers continue to be able to do something that you can't do. Like, I think that's really hard and obviously there's no sort of expectation that other artists can take this on and boycott the U.S. or anything. But that's why the support of these industry organizations is so important. They're the ones that need to really show up and provide tangible support.

NK: What about fans?

TT: If you're a music fan in Canada, the best thing you can do is to find ways to directly support the artist. If you can buy tickets in advance to the shows, that always helps so much. Buying music directly from the artist as opposed to, like, the streaming platforms as much as possible. Those things are so important as this industry becomes more and more volatile, and less and less of the money gets to the artist directly.

NK: Your latest album is called Tenderness, an important word always, but maybe particularly for these times. Is there a particular song that you'd like us to play for our listeners?

TT: I think one of the things that I've been hearing a lot, which I really appreciate, is the urgency to take care of ourselves as well. So, there's a song called I Must Believe, and that's about being in your favourite place, in a place that calms you down and that makes you feel more grounded, and I think that would be a great one to go out on.

NK: I appreciate this, T. Please take care.

TT: Thanks.

CH: T. Thomason is a trans Canadian musician and award-winning pop artist. We reached him in Toronto.

[folk]

Part 3: Rory McIlroy Win, Roman Scroll Deciphered

Rory McIlroy Win

Guest: Tom Widley

CH: It was a Hollywood ending for the guy from Holywood, Northern Ireland. Golfer Rory McIlroy made history yesterday by winning the Masters in a sudden-death playoff finish against Englishman, Justin Rose.

SOUNDCLIP

[cheers]

COMMENTATOR: The long journey is over, McElroy has his masterpiece.

CH: That winning shot meant that not only did Mr. McIlroy finally get his hands on the coveted green jacket, he also completed a career grand slam -- becoming just the sixth man to win golf's four major tournaments. And unlike the other five men, he had to wait 11 years to complete his set. He wasn't the only man from Holywood standing on the green for the winning putt. His longtime friend and caddie Harry Diamond was there every step of the way. And after his win, Rory McIlroy took a moment to credit his friend for his role in his success.

SOUNDCLIP

RORY MCILROY: I've known Harry since I was seven years old. I met him on the putting green at Holywood Golf Club. We've had so many good times together. He's been like a big brother to me the whole way through my life. And to be able to share this with him, after all the close calls that we've had, all the crap that he's had to take from people that don't know anything about the game, yeah, you know, this one is just as much his as it is mine.

CH: Masters winner Rory McIlroy, reflecting on the role of his caddie Harry Diamond in his career. Both hail from the Holywood Golf Club in Northern Ireland. Tom Widley is the general manager there. We reached him in Holywood.

NK: Tom, he says that he shares this win with Harry Diamond. Does everyone at the golf club there feel like they share a piece of this win with Rory McIlroy as well?

TOM WIDLEY: That's a difficult question to answer. [NK chuckles] I think everyone's very proud of Rory McIlroy's win. I wouldn't want to speak for the members and say they feel that they share a piece of it. I think they're all incredibly proud, incredibly grateful for what he's done for the golf club, and for the Northern Irish and Irish golf. I think we actually have Harry Diamond's picture up on our wall in the hallway as well because he was in Ireland International from Hollywood Golf Club. So, kind of their friendship is long-standing.

NK: So, if share isn't the right word, clearly everyone feels a deep connection to it. Often, when, you know, people like to claim pieces of people when they win big tournaments or big prizes like this one. But I think it says a lot about you and the club as well that you hesitate to take even a shred of credit for this big win. That does speak volumes. I was out and unaware of what was unfolding on the screens until the moment that triggered the tiebreaker. And the the groans, the gasps, the oh my gods [TW chuckles] in the restaurant i was in, I mean, it was on par with, you know, any basketball final, any football or soccer final that i've been sitting in, and it was a pretty big group on a sunday afternoon. What was going through your mind [chuckling] when it was at that point in the game?

TW: I mean, it was probably one of the most truly stressful rounds of golf I've ever watched. I think it was even earlier in the round on the first hole when he made a double bogey, the thought was is it going to be another another year of waiting? And then, the big theme for the week has been resilience. And he just showed how resilient he has been. And just battled back. And I think when he hit his shot into the water on the 13th hole, which is never a place he would ever be, it was such a simple shot. Again, the feeling comes over the pit of your stomach and you feel dreadful, but he just battled back with some of the best shots you've ever seen in the Masters. So, it was a big relief when he actually hit the shots and came back, but there was so many ups and downs. It was, I wouldn't say it was pleasant viewing, I'll say that.

NK: What were you saying in those moments, if you can repeat them on the radio? [chuckling]

TW: I was actually telling my partner to take the blanket from off her head because she couldn't watch it. So, I was trying to will her to be brave. But for me, it was just, you just feel gutted. If I'm feeling gutted, I'd imagine the whole nation's feeling gutted, the golf club's feeling gutted. But then, within 20 minutes, it's just absolute elation and relief. Relief's definitely a good word to use.

NK: And we saw the tears, the collapse, I mean, we see this in other sports as well, but you really felt it from him in those moments.

TW: Yeah, I mean, certainly, if I think of say, the popular sports over here, like football, or soccer, or rugby, you would never see emotions like that, even in tennis, even in golf. It was literally like it was a visual representation of someone just losing 11 years of pressure. It was unbelievable. Like, I've never seen anything like it. And I've never seen Rory McIlroy in that sort of mode, if that makes sense?

NK: Yeah. You've never seen him breakdown like that.

TW: I don't think I've ever seen any professional golfer break down like that. [NK chuckles] And I think I have been watching golf for 25 years. It's just, it was a nice human moment to see what it meant to him.

NK: You've met him at least once, if I'm not mistaken. What is he like as a person?

TW: Yeah, so I've met him once. I've kind of been the GM at Holywood for three years. So, I think he kind of comes back once or twice a year when there's a tournament locally. And he was normal, which is probably a big compliment. He was just a normal guy. And from when I speak to other staff that have been there for, say, 18, 20 years and have known him since he was a youngster, he hasn't, from what I understand, he hasn't changed. He is just normal, unassuming, which is quite bizarre when you, certainly for me, when I'm kind of not from the area and you meet somebody who is a sports icon in my mind and he's just, like, the normal guy from the golf club, it's very strange.

NK: And we actually have a clip from an interview he gave when he was just a little guy coming up at the club. 1998 Rory McIlroy spoke to BBC news. We'll play a bit of that now.

SOUNDCLIP

RORY MCILROY: To turn a pro and to win all the majors.

REPORTER: And would you like to win them all in one year?

RM: Yeah! When I was two years of age, dad took me out to the course and made me hit a couple of shots. And that's how I got into golf.

NK: It's adorable. He sounds a little bit different now, but still the same tenacity, yeah? [chuckle]

TW: Yeah, yeah, that's good to hear. I've seen that many times before.

NK: The club, obviously, has meant a lot to him. What do you think this win will mean in the area?

TW: I think it's massive. Northern Ireland as a broader area, golf is a huge part of its economy. And we've seen it this morning. Obviously, we've been overrun with media, which is highly unusual for, certainly, my job. Certainly, there's a massive sense of pride around the place. And I was having the conversation earlier with one of my colleagues that when people talk about Rory McIlroy, they talk about Holywood. And that doesn't happen with any other golfer. Not even Tiger Woods. He's not associated with a club, whereas Rory McIlroy is synonymous with Holywood and Northern Ireland. And it will be massive for us. We'll see a huge footfall for the Open in July when it's at Port Rush because it's an hour away. It's massive, it's massive for inspiring, I think, all levels of golfers from around here. And, I think, I would say people in general. Like, it's just a great example of someone that hasn't given up.

NK: Thanks for this, Tom.

TW: No problem.

CH: Tom Widley is the general manager at Holywood Golf Club, Rory McIlroy's hometown golf club. We reached him in Holywood, Northern Ireland.

[indie rock]

Rent-A-Hen

CH: If you have a burning desire to start raising chickens, but no idea how to get started, one Manitoba entrepreneur wants to help you get all cooped up. Rent-A-Hen is a program that was created by farmers, David and Robin Long -- with some assistance from their kids, Nolan and Marley.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID LONG: You rent the hens from May 'till October. So, in the beginning of May, we'll deliver a coop, the two hens, feed and water, and then the amount of food you'd need for that six-month duration. You have the hens for the summer, all the benefits of that. And then in October, we come back, pick them up, and bring them back to our farm for the winter.

MARCY MARKUSA: How hard is it to take care of a hen? I mean, if somebody doesn't even know where to begin, what should they expect they're in for?

DL: Yeah, you know what? The feed and water will probably last you two to three days. So, if you filled it right up, you have that kind of window. Typically, we like to have the eggs collected daily. That justs keep them fresh. So, that's a chore in the morning. Keep them fed and watered and clean.

MM: Robin how many hens and chickens, like, how many do you have around your home? Are they inside? Are they outside?

ROBIN LONG: No, [DN laughs] we try to keep them all outside. We just brought them in special for today. We have about 30 layers right now in the backyard, right? They'll eat lots of your kitchen scraps, like you mentioned. Pest control, they love bugs as they forage through your yard, ants and flies and all sorts of things. Then, the natural fertilizer is a huge benefit. The bottom of the coop is all wire. And so, the waste just falls right through and they will fertilize your grass or your garden or your flowerbed. And then, as you can see, they have great personalities. And so, they make really good friends and companionship. They're great learning opportunities. The kids have, you know, responsibilities, and it's just great for all ages.

MM: Marley, what are your responsibilities with the hens? What do you have to do?

MARLEY LONG: On the weekends, I have to feed them and give them water on the weekends.

MM: What about you? Do you have the same responsibilities on different days, or is it different?

NOLAN LONG: Yeah, on the weekend it's normally my job to do the other animals, but when we have a hen that's longing to hatch eggs, it's my turn to pick the eggs because they get kind of feisty. [laughter all around]

MM: Feisty how? Are they sitting on them when you're going in to get them?

NL: Yeah, they're trying to protect the eggs. So then when you go to get the ones that they're, we don't want them to hatch, then they kind of peck you.

MM: What's your key to calming them down? Do they know you? Like, are they able to, like, I don't know, nothing about hens.

NL: No, you just have to stick your hand under and just man up. [laughter all around]

CH: That was the Long family -- David, Robin, Marley and Nolan -- creators of the Rent-A-Hen service in Shilo, Manitoba. They were talking to Marcy Markusa, host of Information Radio in Winnipeg.

[heist music?]

Seal Skin Books

CH: Monks at a 12th century French Abbey didn't know what seals looked like -- they didn't even have a word for the animal yet. But in a way, seals were right under their noses. New research from the University of Cambridge shows the order was using seal skin to bind books. That discovery sheds light on the use of seal products in the Middle Ages -- and just how far they probably travelled. And as researchers Matthew Collins and Élodie Lévêque explained, the revelation came as a total surprise.

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHEW COLLINS: Some scholars had looked into this earlier, and there was a dispute about what the fur was. They look pretty brown. They look quite scrappy now. And because of that, actually, in many cases in Victorian times, these old bindings were removed. But luckily, they weren't here. And so, people had said, well, they're maybe boar skin. They're quite rough. They may be deer skin. And we have seen earlier examples of text bound in deer skin. And there was a talk that perhaps some of these were bound in seal skin. And so, when we ran our analysis, expecting to find, let's say deer, which is what I expected, they didn't look anything like deer skin. And so, from then on, it was a question of what are they? And trying to find out examples of other species that it might be, and then check the protein fingerprints of those species with these skins. And it turned out the fingerprints matched seal skin.

PAULA GALE: This is a pretty significant discovery. Tell us about how you figured out that it was indeed seal skin?

ÉLODIE LÉVÊQUE: We looked at it under the microscope. That's what conservators do usually. So, we look at the skin under the microscope. And looking at the follicle pattern, you can tell if it's goat, sheep, I checked with deer skin and it didn't match at all. But because I didn't know what seal skin would look like and I didn't expect it, I couldn't find out what it was. So, when I sent the samples and I got the results back I was a bit surprised because Champagne, where Clairvaux is, is quite far from the sea.

MC: And Élodie has these beautiful illustrations that she's been showing me of the attempts to draw seals. Whereas interestingly, Irish monks draw seals and you can clearly see they have seen seals in the sea. But as Élodie just said, out there in Champagne, yeah, no evidence.

ÉL: It looks like a sea monster with the body of a calf and fish tails instead of the feet and a monster face.

PG: I'm so curious about how you figure out where the seals came from and how these monks attained them at that time.

MC: I kind of assumed that if they were getting seals, they couldn't have been from very far away, but the result was actually even the common seal -- the grey seal -- that they were using was some distance, and then there were exotic seals as well from the Arctic. And where these rookeries, it appears to be, were on the coast of Norway and then right over into Greenland. So, you're talking about movement of skins over great distances from very far away into northern France.

CH: Matthew Collins and Élodie Lévêque are behind a new study into seal skin-bound books. They were talking to Paula Gale on The Broadcast.

[country twang]

Roman Scroll Deciphered

Guest: Anna Dolganov

CH: For as long as we've had taxes, we've had tax evasion. That's according to a new analysis of a 1,900-year-old papyrus from Ancient Rome. What you might hope would be battle plans, or a letter to a Roman deity, or Caligula's shopping list, is actually a sheet scrawled on by a prosecutor while preparing for a tax evasion trial -- as well as minutes from a judicial hearing. And I understand that tax law doesn't sound super flashy, but it seems that, at the time, the trial was pretty dramatic. Anna Dolganov is one of the historians who deciphered the scroll. We reached her in Vienna, Austria.

NK: A tale of two men in ancient Rome, Anna, what are they accused of doing?

ANNA DOLGANOV: Oh, they're accused of very elaborate scheme of fiscal evasion involving enslaved persons, which they seem to have fictively sold and avoided paying taxes on.

NK: There was forgery involved as well. Who were these men?

AD: So, these men have biblical names, two of them have biblical names, which indicates very strongly that they are Jewish. One of them, the one who was instrumental in the forgery, happened to be the son of a notary. So, he was involved in his father's notarial business. And therefore, had access to the instruments that one needs to create forged legal documents.

NK: And how were they caught in the end?

AD: So, what they appear to have done -- which is very clever, indeed -- they are located in a border region between two Roman provinces. And the two settlements that are mentioned are actually geographically not very far away, but a Roman provincial border runs between them. And what they seem to have been done is weaponized the fact that the administrative systems of the two Roman provinces did not routinely communicate with each other. So, if you have a sale of slaves on one side of the border that provincial administration will not necessarily check across the border whether the slaves have been properly declared by the person to whom they were apparently sold. And this appears to have been instrumentalized by them to make the slaves effectively disappear on paper from the view of the officials.

NK: This is told from the perspective of lawyers. Is there any way to really know what these men were up to?

AD: Exactly, so we are very much seeing this case through the lens of the prosecution, which obviously wants these, thinks these individuals are criminals that ought to be condemned. It is possible, however, to eke out a little bit of the background story, nevertheless. For example, there's one puzzling element to the whole story, which is after the fictive sale of the slaves took place, at some point later, one of the slaves was menumitted, so freed, liberated by the original owner who was no longer the owner on paper. And the question is, If the point is to evade taxes, why was the risk of menumitting the slave taken? Because when a slave is menumitted, their menumission has to be registered. And, in my opinion, this is when officials became suspicious that something was going on. So, why take this risk? And this is where we begin to pose other sorts of questions. What sorts of motives could these people have had beyond just mercantile tax evasion? Could it be that these men being Jews were either trying to evade their own Jewish law, which imposed on them certain requirements for how to treat slaves who automatically became Jews if they were the slaves of Jewish masters? Or could it be they had a human relationship to these slaves? And in the Roman world, it was customary to reward faithful household slaves with menumission. So, could it be that they were, on the one hand, perfectly happy avoiding Roman taxes, on the other hand, did not want to deprive a faithful household slave of his due freedom after a certain number of years of service?

NK: What became of these two men, Anna? What were the punishments for tax evasion at that time?

AD: The Romans did not joke about tax evasion. They saw this essentially as a crime against the state. So, the pallet of punishments was quite harsh, could range from huge fines to temporary exile, if one was lucky, to permanent exile or hard labour in the mines or stone quarries, which was essentially a death sentence. And in the worst case, one could be made an example of and executed in an imaginative way, for example, being thrown to wild beasts of the amphitheater.

NK: There's a lot that's eye-opening, jaw-dropping, and fascinating, certainly. What surprised you most about what you found?

AD: I find it incredibly fascinating to what extent this text really mirrors what Roman legal literature says and what Roman rhetorical sources say about the way that these types of cases ought to be handled. It shows that these local lawyers in these borderland provinces were extremely competent in both rhetoric and Roman law. And this is a huge discovery because it shows that Roman legal knowledge was actually very widespread throughout the empire.

NK: And if we're talking about discoveries, the scroll itself was unearthed in the 1950s. But then, was buried in a drawer for decades after that. I mean, do you feel lucky that you are the one that happened upon it? How did it come to you?

AD: So, this document was unearthed in an episode of what one might describe as archival archeology. Which means once it was misfiled in the wrong linguistic group, so it was misidentified initially when it came in in the 1950s probably as a Nabataean document, placed in a drawer with other Nabataean documents, and it was not until our colleague Hannah Cotton at Hebrew University did an inventory in 2014 that she discovered that this was a Greek papyrus. So, it was an incredibly lucky rediscovery, and it's a huge, huge piece of luck. This sort of document, it's very, very long, it is quite unique, it extremely historically substantial. It's one of those documents that very few scholars get to work on in the whole of career, so I feel very fortunate.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Anna, thank you.

AD: Thank you very much.

CH: Anna Dolganov is a historian of the Roman Empire with the Austrian Archaeological Institute at the Austrian Academy of Sciences. We reached her in Vienna.

[R&B]

FOA: Panda Procreation

CH: That was Mao Sun, a giant panda at the Copenhagen Zoo devoting careful attention to one of those apples. Far more attention, unfortunately, than she's paid to male panda Xing Er. Yes, there have been promising games...playful somersaulting, some light wrestling -- but despite the best efforts of the staff, the two pandas remain just friends. Which is frustrating, because their already small window for procreation is closing fast. Well, while zoo staff continue to try to inspire the giant pandas to get it on, we can offer them some consolation -- in the form of a reminder that they are not the first to face this seemingly insur-MOUNT-able task. In March 2012, As It Happens guest host Helen Mann spoke with a zookeeper at the Edinburgh Zoo. They had designed an intensive training program for their male panda, to ensure he'd be ready to do his part when the time came. Here's some of Helen's conversation with Iain Valentine.

SOUNDCLIP

IAIN VALENTINE: We're just about at the point where we're looking at the opportunity to put the male and the female panda together for the breeding season. We're monitoring her hormones, but in anticipation of that, we've got to make sure that he's in best physical condition, which means he's got a good body weight, but also he's got good muscle tone. Because when he mates with a female he needs to be able to make sure that he can actually use the muscles in his back legs to be about to stand 'round about her.

HELEN MANN: And can he, could he not do that before?

IV: Yes, yes, he can. But, of course, in a zoo enclosure they always have a fairly easy life, the food is presented to them on a daily basis, so they're not having to move around through the woodlands to look for their next source of bamboo, so it's important that any animal that's kept in captivity is also kept in good physical condition. So, its just about keeping that muscle tone up.

HM: So, tell me about his training schedule.

IV: Yes, well, every day Yang Guan is asked to come into the internal dens, where the keepers will work with him on the other side of the bars and they're just getting him to respond to particular commands, making sure that he can stand on his back legs. But one of the things that adult giant pandas or males do is that he's scent mark as well. So, they're very prone to doing the scent marking, doing headstands basically, or handstands on their front legs. So, it's about making sure that they're getting good muscle tone on the back legs for mating the female. And making sure they've got good muscle on the front legs because that's how they scent mark.

HM: So, does this mean he's going to be all ready for the big event when it comes?

IV: I hope so. I mean, it's down to both of them. It's not just about Yang Guan, but he's down to Tianqian as well, and she's in good physical condition, as is he. They're pretty important animals and every baby is very valuable, certainly in the giant panda world, so it's important we get it right.

HM: Why are they so disinclined to mate in captivity?

IV: Ah, good question. I mean, there is this thing that people always think that giant pandas are not good breeders. In fact, you know, they've been around for millions of years, so they are very good breeders. The difference, though, is in captivity, the male and the female have less choice. In the wild, a male would move around his forest, and if he finds a female, and if she wants to mate with him, then that's the case. But in the captivity, obviously, there's a limited choice. So, it is about making sure that the two animals that you're getting together want to be together. And, two, can actually mate. So, it's not that easy in the giant panda world in captivity to make sure that you're going to get a baby panda.

CH: From our archives, Helen Mann talking with Iain Valentine of the Edinburgh Zoo in March 2012.

The AIH Transcript For April 14, 2025

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