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The AIH transcript for April 11, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Under fire. The mayor of Jasper, Alberta tells us why he's signed on to a letter demanding federal party leaders do more to address climate change. And how his own experience of surviving the city's wildfires changed him.

CH: Sinking to new lack of depths. Veteran political journalist Paul Wells says that, in this election campaign, Canada’s major parties are trading ideas for shallow slogans -- and that should worry voters of all stripes.

NK: Taking names. A high school teacher in Florida loses her job, after calling a student by their preferred name without parental permission.

CH: Breaking the ice. Montreal Canadiens fans thronged Pearson Airport in Toronto last night to welcome their team's newest recruit -- a 19-year-old Russian winger named Ivan Demidov.

NK: A shot across -- and down -- the bow. Canadian Will Nediger writes his name in the history books -- in pen -- by taking second-place at the American Crossword Puzzle Tournament.

CH: And...a date with desk-tiny. You can't always predict where Donald Trump stands, but we certainly know where he sits -- because he can't seem to stop talking about his Oval Office desk.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio that descrambles desk rambles.

[theme]

Part 1: Mayor Climate Letter, Florida Teacher Fired, Canadian Crosworder

Mayor Climate Letter

Guest: Richard Ireland

CH: Together, they represent millions of Canadians. And today, more than 100 municipal politicians from across the country united to call on federal party leaders to do more to address climate change. The diverse group of mayors and city councillors have written an open letter addressed to Yves-François Blanchet, Mark Carney, Jonathan Pedneault, Elizabeth May, Pierre Poilievre, and Jagmeet Singh urging them to, quote, "invest in national projects that will connect and protect our country from the dual threats of tariffs and climate change." Unquote. Richard Ireland is one of the signatories. He's the mayor of Jasper, Alberta -- which lost one-third of its structures to wildfires last summer, his own home among them. We reached him in Jasper.

NK: Mayor, in this letter, you and the other municipal leaders write, quote, leading through a climate emergency changes you, unquote. How did it change you, Mayor?

RICHARD IRELAND: Well, I suppose it's still changing me, as the rest of the community. First, there's the change just confronting the new reality of, you know, a third of our community lost. And then, the trauma that goes with all of that, trying to deal with people who have lost so much, some lost homes, some lost homes and businesses, it's just, it is such an overpowering experience that it forces people to re-evaluate where we're at in life and that is one of the things, of course, that leads to the letter and my support.

NK: Do you think that had you not -- and your community had not -- gone through what you've all gone through that you would have thought of or signed on to a letter like this?

RI: I'm not sure that it would have come to my attention in the same way. We are faced with such a unique confluence of events. So, the devastating fires here in Jasper, an election that is a little bit earlier than it might otherwise have been, and comes in the context of the threats from beyond our borders, threats to our economic independence and threats to national sovereignty, which dominate the conversation, but which also allows this issue of climate change to be put on a back burner where it simply cannot be.

NK: The letter also talks about what you and the mayors describe as five bold and achievable ideas. And among those ideas, a high-speed rail network, two million new non-market homes, and a nationwide clean electric grid. Are they achievable, Mayor?

RI: Well, that will be seen. We think that yes, those objectives are bold, but they are achievable. And you didn't get, of course, to the one that touches closest to my heart, which is to implement and fund a national strategy for resilience, response, and recovery. And as we continue to see the impacts of severe weather, more and more communities are going to wind up in the place that Jasper is in now, having to deal with recovering from catastrophic events. When, in fact, if we can implement these other proposed actions, we can quite likely mitigate against many of those severe impacts.

NK: At this point, it does seem that the election is likely to be won either by Mark Carney or Pierre Poilievre. The Liberals, for their part, have removed the consumer carbon tax, as you know, but have promised to reinstate a subsidy for purchases of zero-emissions vehicles. They also say they're going to phase out the use of fossil fuels in government buildings by the year 2030. What do you make of what you have heard from the Liberal leader so far?

RI: Well, any action which mitigates the impact of the pending climate disasters is an action to be supported. Because as I say, climate catastrophes are becoming more frequent and more intense. And we have that recent experience here in Jasper. So, if the Liberals are moving on issues like that now, credit to them. Our approach is across the spectrum, it is non-partisan. We are hoping that the leader of every federal party will give hard consideration to the proposals that we have put forward.

NK: The Conservatives said they would repeal all carbon pricing including at the industrial level, and instead boost incentives for businesses to reduce their emissions. What is your thinking about the Conservative leader's messaging to this point?

RI: Well, again, to the extent that they will take action, which reduces emissions and the impacts that we are feeling in local communities from climate change, we will be supportive. We have laid out a plan, and anything else that they might do that will mitigate the impacts of climate change and the horrendous impacts that we feel at the community level, the better. And we will support all such action.

NK: Alberta is of course a stronghold for the federal Conservatives. What are you hearing from people in Jasper about how -- or if at all -- climate change is going to factor in to their decision making at the ballot box this time around?

RI: People in Jasper are acutely aware of the impacts of climate change. And they are acutely aware that we are still exposed to wildfire. And that risk will continue to intensify until more mitigative work is done on the landscape. We don't want to see this happen to any other community, but I will say that in Jasper, it is top of mind for residents. And that is one of the reasons I'm engaged in this effort to make it also become top of mind for federal leaders.

NK: Mayor Ireland, while we have you, you know, in the aftermath of the fires, we talked to people and asked them to paint a picture of what they were living through, what they were seeing and experiencing. Today, as we speak, how would you describe where your community is at?

RI: Well, it's on the road to recovery, but it is a long, difficult road. We have, quite thankfully, people now in interim housing units. We are still, though, facing extreme housing challenges. We will be looking for an incoming summer staff component to help revive our economy, which is entirely tourism-based. We don't have housing for those people yet. So, housing, we have seen, is foundational both to social recovery and to economic recovery. And so, the housing portion of this is critical.

NK: Mayor Ireland, I'm glad we could speak. I appreciate your time. Please take care.

RI: Thank you very much. I'm happy for your call.

CH: Richard Ireland is the mayor of Jasper, Alberta. That's where we reached him.

[sombre instrumental]

Florida Teacher Fired

Guest: Amy Roub

CH: Melissa Calhoun has been a high school teacher in Brevard County, Florida for 11 years. But this semester will be her last. Ms. Calhoun was fired from Satellite High School, after she called a student by a name other than their legal name, without permission from their parents. It is the first known dismissal resulting from the so called "nickname rule" signed by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis in 2023. That law requires parents in Florida to sign a consent form before their child can be called by a name other than the one on their birth certificate. But community members aren't going to let Ms. Calhoun go without a fight: they're calling for her to be reinstated, and adding their names to a petition that currently has over 23,000 signatures. Amy Roub is a parent at Satellite High School, and a volunteer with a local non-profit group that advocates for inclusive public schools. We reached Ms. Roub in Satellite Beach, Florida.

NK: Amy, I know your own children have been in Melissa Calhoun's class. What have they told you about what she's like as a teacher?

AMY ROUB: Well, definitely one of their favourites. She obviously loves and respects these kids. She knows how to teach. They all just rave about her. Not only my own two children, but all their friends.

NK: So, when you found out that her contract was not going to be renewed; it ends in May. I mean, how did you find out, first of all, that that was happening?

AR: I was with my daughter, actually, in Atlanta, our oldest daughter, and she got it through social media, and I said, oh my god, we cannot let this happen, not in our own backyard. I've been an activist in the area trying to fight the book banning and the other creeping fascism coming into our schools. And I thought, this is too far. We cannot let that happen, not to our beloved teacher, you know, these teachers help raise our children.

NK: Have you spoken to Melissa Calhoun since the news came down?

AR: Yeah, I did briefly through some messages. I know that she's been flooded. But we're friends because we were in an adult chorus together at the school called Generations. And I got to chat with her. And she just loved my kids. And she has little girls that she would bring to all of their musicals and chorus concerts. And so, we became, like, you know, friendly. And I reached out and I said, I'd love to help you in any way I can. You know, we can get through this.

NK: How is she taking it?

AR: Well, nobody heard back from her for a while. And then, I got a message that she's just, you know, coming up for air, and she thanks me for reaching out, and she just loves my kids, and thanks me to the support. And she wants to talk again.

NK: Satellite High School is a specialized arts school. The nickname rule, as it's known, was instated back in 2023. How have students and teachers been dealing with that rule and feeling about that rule since it came in?

AR: Well, everybody hates it. It's completely unpopular. Like, nobody's for this rule.

NK: I mean, everybody has nicknames. And I can't imagine high school without nicknames. [chuckling]

AR: No, it's just ridiculous. Anybody that's paying any attention knows what this is. But, you know, fascists are cowards, and so they don't say what they mean, right? [chuckling] They don't just say, hey, we don't want any trans kids getting respect, or called the names that they want. We want you to treat trans children differently. That's what they should say.

NK: Students have been trying to find a way to push back as well. There was a walkout planned yesterday. What happened?

AR: So, apparently, they planned to walk out for 12:55, and then they got so much backlash from the administration that they were, you know, the chilling effect is working. Because they went over the loud speaker and said any child that does this walkout will get a 10-day suspension. And they were also threatening to take prom away from the whole school. So, there were still some brave kids that tried to show up and do it anyway, in solidarity with Ms. Calhoun, and they locked the gates so they couldn't leave.

NK: So, what are the plans now? I mean, do you feel that there still are avenues to help Ms. Calhoun?

AR: Well, yeah, the kids did end up doing a walkout after school, and there were parents and other citizens there to meet them when they exited. And that is just the beginning. We are organizing. Kids are coming together. We have lots of backup. Organizations are becoming coalitions. And we are going to fight this with everything we have because this is a first, and it should be the last.

NK: We reached out to the school board there for a comment. In a statement, the spokesperson wrote the state would be reviewing Ms. Calhoun's teaching certificate because -- in their words -- she broke the law, and the board cannot employ a teacher who is not certified to teach. Are there any levers that the board can pull? I mean, are their hands tied?

AR: No, their hands are not tied. They didn't have to do any of this. They're making an example out of her, is what I think they're doing. And I think we need to make an example out of them.

NK: This is the first, as you've mentioned, known instance of a teacher losing their job for calling a student by a different name without parental notification. There's a petition, there's a lot of public outrage, students are upset, as you said. But when you look down the road, I mean, the kind of position other educators, other teachers are in right now as well as children, how do you prepare for that?

AR: I think that we have to fight this with all we've got right now. This is it. If we let this happen, you know, we're not going to have much to fight for. So, we're not finished. That little walkout was just the beginning. That was a little taste. We are not going stop until Ms. Calhoun has a job next year, if she wants it at that point.

NK: A lot of families, parents, they're not, even if they disagree with what's happening and are deeply concerned about what's happening, may not be as comfortable in an activist space and protesting. I mean, what's your sense? Are they willing to let their children be suspended if they continue to walk out?

AR: Well, I think that we have to, it's time to use our privilege for good and take some hits. Yeah, resistance is very uncomfortable. It can get really uncomfy, and we have to be ready for that. We have to be ungovernable. Like, what country is this? You know, it is time to fight. I don't care if you're a teacher. Look, you're not safe if you are quiet [chuckling] either. You're still not safe. You know, either way this is going down, you know? And it's time to get involved. The more of us that push back, the more chance we have for this to stop. This to be the last time that a teacher gets, you now, fired for giving respect to a student.

NK: Amy, I appreciate your time. Thanks for this.

AR: Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for covering this. We want this everywhere. They should be the laughing stock of the country.

CH: Amy Roub is a parent at Satellite High School and is the State Director for the Florida chapter of Defense of Democracy. We reached her in Satellite Beach, Florida.

[moody minor piano]

Canadian Crosworder

Guest: Will Nediger

CH: You may not recognize the name Will Nediger. But you may already be familiar with his work. And it may drive you up a wall. Mr. Nediger is a freelance crossword constructor, who also publishes puzzles on his blog "Bewilderingly" -- which wordplay enthusiasts will immediately recognize is an anagram of "By Will Nediger". His work has appeared in all kinds of publications, including the LA Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the New York Times. And now, the Canadian has reached another milestone in his crossword career. This past weekend, he took home second place at the 47th annual American Crossword Puzzle Tournament. We reached Will Nediger in London, Ontario.

NK: First of all, congratulations, Will.

WILL NEDIGER: Thank you!

NK: That second place win, how did that sit with you?

WN: It definitely exceeded my expectations, so I'm very happy about that.

NK: Is there a butt? It sounds like you were coming up to a butt. [both chuckle]

WN: To be honest, no, not at all.

NK: Okay.

WN: Of course, first would have been better than second. But the two finalists I was up against are two solvers I admire a lot, and two of the blazingly fastest solvers out there. So, even second against such a group of solvers is something that I can be happy with.

NK: Absolutely. We're certainly in awe of it. Do you compete often, or was this the first time you'd entered a big competition like this?

WN: I've done a few tournaments before. But this one -- the American Crossword Puzzle Tournament -- is the really big one, and this is my second time doing that one.

NK: Generally, solving a crossword is a solitary activity, or most of us think of it that way, I think it's safe to say. What was it like to be in a situation where it's really not that at all? You're surrounded by people who love crosswords as much as you do, albeit, you know, you're competing against one another.

WN: It's not as different as you might think. It definitely feels different when you're in the room with everyone. But once you actually start solving, you're kind of just focused on the puzzle. So, it's kind of like you're competing against yourself like you normally are. Of course, in the back of your mind, you're thinking about exactly how fast you need to finish to stay in the running. But other than that, the actual solve itself kind of feel like solving at home.

NK: And then, when it comes down to the end, you and the other two finalists are racing to complete the same puzzle in front of the audience and the puzzles are up on big boards. So, was being up there in front of everyone and doing it on a larger scale like that stressful?

WN: Again, it was definitely more stressful before, sort of just waiting for the other finals to finish before the big finals. But once I was actually solving, it's not so bad. Although, when you're solving on a giant whiteboard, it feels strange because you can't see the whole thing at once and get, like, the big picture look at it.

NK: Right.

WN: So, it's really different from solving, like, on a clipboard or in a book.

NK: And how long did it take you to finish the puzzle in the end?

WN: About four-and-a-half minutes.

NK: What a long time, Will. Oh my goodness. [both chuckle] What slowed you down, do you think? [chuckling]

WN: Well, I got up to a slow start on this one. [NK chuckles] I start, usually, I start in the top left corner and I couldn't get footholds there. So, eventually, I moved on. I went to a different corner. And then, once I got to a couple answers in that one corner, basically everything fell like a sack of dominoes after that. Usually, in a finals puzzle especially, there's a lot of tricky wordplay clues that try to misdirect you.

NK: Sure.

WN: And so, it's hard to be confident in the answer, even if you think you're on to the trick. But if there's a trivia answer that you know 100 per cent, then that's a perfect starting point because you've got letters that you know and you can build off those letters and you can be confident.

NK: You always loved words, even as a child. What drew you to word games and crosswords in particular?

WN: I really can't say what drew me to word games. I think anything that's related to words, I've always just loved. But I think crosswords are the one that grabbed me especially because I really like the elegance of the design. The fact that if you're stumped on one answer, you can use those crossing letters to figure it out.

NK: It is great.

WN: So everything, you know, is intermeshed together. Everything works together. It's not just a series of trivia questions. It's a complete whole.

NK: And are there clues that you've written that you're especially proud of?

WN: Oh, there must be. Although, it's hard to think of on the spot. One that I really like that I wrote a few months back was the clue childlike wonder for the answer master chef. So, a wonder who is like Julia Child, you might describe as a childlike wonder.

NK: Huh. Child would have been spelled with a capital C, though, in the clue, yes?

WN: Yes, although it's the first letter, so it's capitalized anyway, so it's kind of a hidden capital in there.

NK: Tricky, tricky! I like that one. You talked about where you like to start generally when you're solving a crossword puzzle. When you're building one, where do you even start?

WN: If you're making a themed puzzle, you first have to pick what your theme entries are going to be. And usually, they have to be placed symmetrically in the grid. And then, once you've got those, you kind of fit them in places where they're not too close together, not too bunched up, and then you build the rest of the black squares around that, and you get to filling the grid."

NK: Will Shortz, who hosted the tournament, and obviously, for those who do the New York Times crossword, they'll recognize his name as the editor of that, and he had some high praise for what you do. He told the Globe and Mail newspaper, he said your puzzles were, quote, simple and elegant. And he said he recognized your talent right away. How does it feel to hear that from him?

WN: I mean, it feels amazing. You know, he's a long-time idol of mine, as he is for probably pretty much any person who's into constructing crosswords, 'cause he's, you know, the biggest name in the business. So yeah, it feels great

NK: Does your name have to be Will? [both chuckle] What's a four letter word for a crossword puzzle creator?

WN: [chuckling] Hey, it helps. I mean, Will Shortz is not even the first New York Times crossword editor to be named Will. So, you know, maybe there's something to it.

NK: Maybe. I suspect you're going to compete next year as well. What does training involve so you can get that first place win one day?

WN: A lot of it is getting used to solving on paper. Because I and many other solvers now do the vast majority of my solving on the computer. But solving on a paper is a really different experience. If you're trying to do it really fast, you have to get used to being able to jump through the clues and find the clue that you're looking for on paper. You have to do that and not waste too much time jumping back and forth.

NK: That's a good tip. Will, congratulations again. This has been a lot of fun. Take care.

WN: Thank you so much.

CH: Will Nediger is a freelance crossword puzzle constructor. We reached him in London, Ontario.

[chiptune]

Trump Desks

CH: We first noticed it two weeks ago today. U.S. President Donald Trump was holding forth -- well, holding back and forth; he doesn't go directly from A to B without going to L and then back to Z. But on that Friday, the president was telling reporters that world leaders were sharing their deep shame with him, about taking advantage of the United States.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Many of them have actually apologized. They said, look, we have taken advantage. And I don't blame them as much as I blame the people that stood. In this case, I can say the men because so far, they've been all men, haven't they? But the men that sat right there, and behind the Resolute Desk, mostly the Resolute Desk, you know? I don' know if you know, you have a choice of seven desks. The Resolute is the one I like, but some chose other ones. But they sat right behind a desk right in this location, and they let our country be hurt very badly.

CH: Now, that digression about the desk in the Oval Office seemed a bit out of place in that context. But we didn't think that much about it. Until President Trump announced the tariffs in the Rose Garden a few days later.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Japan, very, very tough, great people. And again, I don't blame the people for doing it. I think they're very smart in doing it. I blame the people that sat right in that Oval Office, right over there, right behind the Resolute Desk, or whichever desk they chose. Japan, 46 per cent.

CH: Then, a few days after that -- this past Wednesday -- you'll recall that he paused the tariffs for 90 days. And that day, he talked about China -- and another subject that's always on his mind.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: China, look, they're very capable. And I don't blame China for what happened. I blame the people sitting right at this desk, right behind this desk, or another desk. You get your choice of seven. I happened to pick the Resolute.

CH: Now, due to our investigative journalism skills, [NK chuckles] we began to notice a pattern. So we started researching. And we found those were the only times Donald Trump talked about White House desks. Just kidding. [NK chuckles]

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: You know we have seven desks. And as president, you can choose any one of the desks. You know, the Resolute Desk, you know, you pick one of seven desks when you become president. Someday, there'll be people in here, that young man right over there I think he's got. We're going to take back just some of the money that has been taken from us by people sitting behind this desk, or another desk that's not quite as nice but they have their choice of seven, as you know. In the Oval Office, you know, we have as a president, when you get elected, they give you a choice of seven desks. You have seven desks. Many great presidents sat behind that desk, and many didn't. I mean, you have seven, when you're president, they give you a choice of seven desks.

CH: Just a handful of the times between 2018 and 2025 that Donald Trump mentioned that, as president, they let you choose between seven desks to use in the Oval Office. He chose the Resolute Desk, if you missed that. An interesting bit of trivia to repeat over and over again for years. Especially interesting because he got the number of desks wrong: there are only six. [NK laughs]

[jaunty instrumental]

Part 2: ELXN: Paul Wells, Ivan Demidov Fan

ELXN: Paul Wells

Guest: Paul Wells

CH: There are less than three weeks left now before Canadians hit the polls to vote. So far, the campaign has had no shortage of photo-ops, and rallies, and announcements from the main party leaders. But on the other hand, there's also been precious little in the way of tough questions and unscripted moments. At least part of that will change next week when the leaders debate in French and English. Veteran political journalist Paul Wells has been watching it all closely. We reached him today in Ottawa.

NK: Paul, you've been hearing, as we have, this election being billed as one of, or even the most important election, you know, in recent times. In your opinion, is the campaign itself living up to that kind of framing, those kinds of stakes?

PAUL WELLS: I mean, I'm a sucker for political campaigns, but I think it all, I think it kind of is. To some extent, the surprises were front-loaded. I mean the, if we trust the polls, the dynamic hasn't changed a lot since it began. But from the outset, it's just a fascinating thing.

NK: Is it risky for any of the leaders to focus solely on the Trump issue or not to?

PW: I think Canadians, to the extent that they're voting on bread and bread economic issues, need to take both leaders on trust. Mark Carney's claim is that he represents substantial change from the Trudeau years. As a matter of fact, he doesn't even like talking about the Truteau government. He says he wasn't around. I'm a new prime minister, new plant. So, it's not at all clear, including, I would say, not clear to Mark Carney, whether Mark Carney can deliver his agenda. And similarly, Pierre Poilievre talks a lot about his cabinet days, but he was not in Stephen Harper's cabinet for long. He was very young, and he has spent the last couple of years demanding that other people meet and negotiate and do things, whereas he's proven very reluctant to pick up the phone and talk to even somebody as congenial as Doug Ford.

NK: From what you're hearing and seeing so far at the halfway point of this campaign, you wrote in your Substack that there needs to be fresh and serious thinking about the country we want to be. From what we've seen and heard, what is that going to look like?

PW: My concern is that a new government would be ambushed by the rush of events and have to make do with the structures of government that it inherited. What are those structures of government? Extraordinarily cumbersome decision making. A deeply demoralized public service that doesn't feel authorized to make decisions. And an increasing use of private consulting firms to do the work that used to be performed in-house in government. Frankly, I've heard precisely nothing from Pierre Poilievre in all his time in office to suggest that he has an appetite for addressing that problem. And in the very short time that he's been in office, Mark Carney has said very little about it. And given that we're apparently going to abandon a century-old trade relationship with the United States and strike out for new frontiers, i think we're going to need a public service that's much better suited for purpose than it is right now

NK: You wrote this week in your Substack that Canadian politics is stuck in deep ruts. Can anything in the next couple of weeks shake Canadian politics out of those ruts?

PW: It's funny, I get nostalgic for [NK chuckles] leaders who at the time, did not seem that fantastic. But I remember specific moments when Brian Mulroney, Stephen Harper, Jean Chrétien said, I don't have all the answers. I'll check with someone who knows more. We've tried and we haven't had great success on this. I was not expecting this to happen and I'm not sure how to proceed. Like, simple, I honestly think that these guys come, they load themselves up with a level of fake certainty that doesn't fool anyone. And I think Canadians' comfort with any new prime minister would only be enhanced if the candidates for that job would admit some basic human fallibility.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Paul. Thanks for coming on the show.

PW: Thanks for the invite.

CH: Paul Wells is a journalist and the host of The Paul Wells Show, a political podcast. We reached him in Ottawa earlier today.

[electronic]

Ivan Demidov Fan

Guest: Darcy Dumeignil

CH: You would think Toronto would be Maple Leafs turf. But last night, at Pearson Airport, it was Montreal Canadiens fans who posted up at Arrivals, hoping to get a glimpse of a major player.

SOUNDCLIP

[cheers and excitement]

CH: From a livestream of Habs fan Tony Marinaro's The Sick Podcast, that's Canadiens devotees welcoming -- or trying to welcome -- team newcomer, Ivan Demidov, who was whisked off through another exit. The Russian phenom's signing was a shock for fans. But his actual arrival in Canada was far from a sure thing. And it couldn't come at a better time for a team that has already turned its fortunes around in a big way, as the playoffs approach. And although Mr. Demidov did indeed slip through a side door, his admirers caught up with him again, not long after.

SOUNDCLIP

[people cheer Demidov]

CH: Montreal Canadiens fans greeting Russian winger Ivan Demidov at Toronto's Pearson International Airport yesterday. Darcy Dumeignil was at the airport. He's a Habs fan living in Mississauga -- and that's where we reached him.

NK: Darcy, is it usually difficult to be a Habs fan in Ontario?

DARCY DUMEIGNIL: Yes and no. I don't mind bugging the Leaf fans a little bit. So, I enjoy it. There's actually a little bit more Habs fans than we can think of, yeah.

NK: [chuckling] And does today make it even better then for you?

DD: Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Like, we're so excited. We're in the playoffs now. Our best prospect is coming. So, it's a good day to be a Habs fan.

NK: You took it a step further. Gathering at Pearson Airport last night, just for a glimpse. It wasn't his final destination, obviously. Why did you want to be there?

DD: Yeah, just to make him feel welcome, feel the love from Montreal. Obviously, if he had landed in Montreal, there would have been thousands of fans there. But in Toronto, I just wanted to show him the love, to make him feel like he's welcome here on our team and that we're just happy to have him. So, it was a very exciting evening.

NK: Yeah, when did you arrive? How long did you wait? I mean, just when you're waiting for a family member, it can be fun and anxiety inducing, but also, like, hurry up and get here already, right? So, when it's something like this, what does it feel like?

DD: Yeah, no, exactly. We arrived at around 6 p.m., and he, I would say he came out at 8:40 or something like that. So, no, it was very exciting because there's so many fans that were there. And there were even people that just came to the airport to pick up their family members and, but they were Habs fans, and they came to us, and they're asking what's going on? And then, we said Demidov is coming and then they got into it as well. So, it was just exciting seeing everyone going through the doors. It was like, oh, is that him? Is that him? And then, eventually, we saw him.

NK: And that moment, what was it like?

DD: Surreal, really. He was standing just straight in front of me. Obviously, we didn't have much time to talk with him. Security was there and so forth. But, yeah, just seeing him, he had a huge smile on his face. He was there with his girlfriend, seemed excited to be there. And, yeah, I can't wait to see him in the Habs uniform.

NK: And in the lead-up, I mean even after those moments, what kind of conversations and chats are you having with those other fans?

DD: Everyone just is excited. This season, we weren't supposed to do much, so the fact that we're almost in the playoffs now and then we're getting help from our best prospect, everyone was just excited, excited to see the team doing well, excited to see who we're going to be playing in the first round. We just can't wait to see Demidov on the ice and see how he can help us. So, you know, we're just happy to see the team do well. And we have a special connection to that team.

NK: Yeah. When did your connection to the Habs first form?

DD: Oh, when I was born. [both laugh]

NK: Just in the hospital, they give you the merchandise and the history.

DD: Pretty much. That's how it goes in Montreal. I grew up in Montreal, so right away my family were Habs fans. From what I can remember, I was always watching the Habs, always having their merch on me. It's one of those connections that is deep-rooted in my heart. So, I'm very passionate about the Habs, for sure.

NK: And so, having that very long and deep history with this team, what can Demidov bring to your beloved team that has you and everybody so excited?

DD: I think it's his offense, first of all, where we're lacking a little bit of offence this year. I think also from what we've seen, he seems to have really that good attitude, that team-first attitude. He's going to fit right in, I feel. So, once we see him play and see his magic on the ice, I think even the other players will respond very well to it.

NK: It wasn't a sure thing that he would actually make it to Canada this season.

DD: Exactly. We weren't sure. At the beginning of the year, our GM said, no, he's not coming. Like, it will just be next year. But when his season in Russia ended, there were some rumors maybe he will come. Then it was, no he's not coming. And then, all of a sudden, it broke out, it was like, okay, he is coming. They broke up his contract. We signed him. Anyone that comes from Russia, it's always a bit more complicated because they have contracts over there that they can't really break. And sometimes when a player gets drafted that is from Russia, they can come to North America maybe more than two or three years, so for him to be there for the final few games of the season and then to playoffs, oh, incredible. It's just incredible.

NK: [chuckling] What are your friends and family back in Quebec saying about all this?

DD: Well, they're just as excited as I am. I am a little bit jealous that they can go to the Bell Centre whenever they want. [NK chuckles] My family bought tickets for the Monday game where we expect that he's going to make his debut there. So, yeah, it's too bad that we can't see him as much, but, no, the fever is full-on in Montreal right now and everyone is feeling it.

NK: When do you think you'll be able to go and see Demidoff play in person?

DD: I am very hopeful that we'll be during the playoff. If we ever play the Leafs, I will do what I can also to get a Leafs game in this year.

NK: Yeah, you have to at that point. [chuckling]

DD: Exactly, exactly. And it's even more fun when you're in enemy territory. It adds a little bit of excitement, I would say.

NK: Not to overstate it or anything, the rivalry. [chuckling]

DD: Exactly

NK: Well Darcy, you'll have to keep us posted. I'm really glad we could speak. Thank you.

DD: For sure, no problem, anytime.

CH: Darcy Dumeignil is a Montreal Canadiens fan in Mississauga, Ontario. That's where we reached him.

[dancehall]

Burgum Endangered Species

CH: United States Secretary of the Interior Doug Burgum is right about one thing, the situation is dire. But maybe not in the way he imagines. You may have seen the much ballyhooed announcement earlier this week by the biotech company Colossal that they had managed to bring back the dire wolf -- basically a scarier version of a regular wolf that's been extinct for over 10,000 years, despite being featured on Game of Thrones. But as we mentioned last night, after the ballyhoo the anti-ballyhoo: critiques from scientists arguing that actually Colossal had actually done no such thing. The pups are just genetically modified grey wolves. At most, a hybrid. As one paleogeneticist told the BBC, "extinction is still forever" -- noting how terrible it would be if people got the impression that you can let animals go extinct because they believe we can just bring them back. And, unfortunately, Secretary Burgum must have missed all that. In a social media post, he wrote that, quote, “It’s time to fundamentally change how we think about species conservation." Unquote. And that fundamental change sounds a lot like relying on so-called "de-extinction", rather than conservation efforts. Which are, of course, in the process of being rolled back on several fronts in the U.S. -- including for regular, non-dire wolves. Here's how Doug Burgum explained his vision to Interior Department employees during a live-streamed town hall this week.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG BURGUM: Unfortunately, the Endangered Species Act has become a little bit of the Hotel California, which is you go on the list and then you never come off. Ninety-seven per cent of the species that have ever been placed on this list since it was created have never come out. And so, we have an opportunity to be innovative and to be thinking about how do we make sure that we're coming back? And one of the things that, again, was announced this last week is a breakthrough in the genetics around de-extinction. I mean, it's like a milestone thing that's never happened before, but there are now dire wolves that are now living for real, that were created through the same kind of technology with DNA and CRISPR and all the innovations that occurred there. And if you haven't read about it, read about some people like, oh, we're heading towards Jurassic Park. No, I mean, dire wolves were here 12,000 years ago. We're not talking about 55 million years ago. And If we're going to be in anguish about losing a species, and now we have an opportunity to bring them back. I mean, pick your favorite species and call up Colossal. And instead of raising money to get animals on the endangered species, let's figure out a way to get them off. And this is one tool in biodiversity, what it can do for everybody on there. I mean, I think we have to think about that as an innovation opportunity that could transform the way we've been thinking about it for the last 50 years, and the possibility to bring back species that, you know, you want carrier pigeons, let's bring them back. You want dodos, bring them, kiwis, bring him back. I mean, it's like there's big opportunities here if we want to embrace them.

CH: U.S. Interior Secretary Doug Burgum speaking to department employees during a town hall this week. I know he mentioned kiwis along with the dodos there, but please don't worry, New Zealand's beloved birds aren't actually extinct.

[electronic]

FOA: “The Great Gatsby” In A Minute

CH: A hundred years ago this week, readers were introduced to the mysterious Jay Gatsby. And all these decades later, F. Scott Fitzgerald's novel about the millionaire Long Islander's ill-fated obsession with his ex-lover Daisy Buchanan -- and the nosy interloper Nick Carraway -- remains the subject of classroom examination and pop cultural fascination. It's one of those books -- at least in the Western world -- that people just assume you've read. And judge you for not having read. And you could read it. It's only about 200 pages after all. But your time is valuable. The world of literature is vast. And As It Happens has you covered. In 1986, we produced a series of recordings called "Classics in a Minute," which are...exactly what they sound like. Here's former host Al Maitland, to explain. I'd warn you there are spoilers but, you know, the book is 100 years old.

SOUNDCLIP

AL MAITLAND: On last night's show you heard the condensed, abridged, and re-abridged version of The Grapes of Wrath and Moby Dick. Tonight, in our continuing effort to bring culture to those people who just don't have the time to read, we bring you yet another great “Classic in a Minute”.

[this theme...is... oh boy! Did the show not have a music budget? this is some 1920's brass!]

SPEAKER: The Great Gatsby is the brilliant and strongly symbolic work of F. Scott Fitzgerald. In this great work of art, F. eloquently depicts the opulent lifestyle of upper-class America during the Roaring Twenties. How great is The Great Gatsby? Judge for yourself.

SPEAKER #2: Daisy and her husband Tom, who are both very rich, invite Daisy's cousin Nick, who's not so rich, over to East Egg, and everyone has a drink. The next day, Tom is tired of counting his money, so Tom and Nick drive to George's garage to pick up George's wife Myrtle, who is also Tom's mistress, so they can all go to New York for a party. But Tom gets into a fight with Myrtle, Myrtle steps out of line, Tom breaks her nose, everybody has a drink. Then Gatsby, the racketeering romantic with a sensational smile, who has amassed amazing amounts of cash in the hopes of winning back his darling Daisy says, holds for it, let's...have some drinks at my place. Next, Nick arranges a meeting between Daisy and Gatsby. Daisy arrives in a white car, she wears a white dress, she sees all the white flowers, she sees Gatsy who's wearing white, she's overcome, she says, white, my favorite colour, let's have a drink. Before you know it, Daisy and Gatsby are spending many lazy hungover afternoons together. Next, it's time for another mindless dinner party. Everyone is rich, everyone is bored, so they drive to New York. Tom drives Gatsby's car, Gatsby drives Tom's car. Tom grabs a bottle of whiskey and they go to the Plaza Hotel, they have some drinks! Gatsby calls everyone old sport, the whole gang gets splitzed. On the way home, Daisy drives Gatsby's car, Daisy does a hundred and runs over Myrtle! George wants revenge! George gets out his gun! George wanders around! George walks all night looking for the car that mashed Myrdle! George walks back to West Egg! George finds the car at Gatsby's big white house! George walks up the big white stairs! George sees Gatsby in the big white pool! George pulls the trigger! And that's the very last...for Mr. Jay Gatsby.

AM: There now, you won't have to read the book, eh what?

[polka? it became polka?]

CH: Eh what! Former. As It Happens host Al Maitland, with a one-minute version of the 100-year-old classic The Great Gatsby, first broadcast on As It Happens in 1986.

[calypso]

Part 3: Duty Free Store, Gairdner Winner

Duty Free Store

Guest: Eric Lapointe

CH: The ongoing trade war with the U.S. has soured a lot of Canadians on travelling south. And that's noticeable in new data released by Statistics Canada this week. Compared to March of last year, there's been a 32 per cent drop in return border crossings from the U.S. to Canada by car. And return plane trips from the U.S. decreased by 13.5 per cent. Now, those declines are bad for American tourist destinations, obviously -- but they're also affecting the bottom line of duty free stores on the U.S.-Canada border. Eric Lapointe owns the Beauce Duty Free Boutique Inc. store, near Quebec's border with Maine. We reached him in Saint-Théophile, Quebec.

NK: Eric, you're at the shop now. What is it like there today? Is it busy?

ERIC LAPOINTE: No, it's not. I had three customers today, so far.

NK: What would it normally be like?

EL: Well, it is a fraction of what we normally have at this time of the year. Even if it's a quiet part of the year, April for me is a slow month, we have a decrease so far of 60 per cent in April, if I compare the same 10 days last year.

NK: How are you dealing with that? That's not a small dip.

EL: And on top of that, we still have a big decrease if we compare ourselves right now, compared to pre-pandemic sales. So, on top that 60 per cent decrease, you have to add another 25 per cent because we didn't recover yet from the pandemic. It's huge.

NK: When did you start seeing things dropping?

EL: The drop really started six weeks ago here. We had good sales during the winter carnival we had in Quebec City.

NK: Sure.

EL: And after that we had a huge drop in sales. I mean, from almost a few sales to zero.

NK: What happened?

EL: Well, people just don't travel in the U.S., and if we have nobody that travels in the U.S., we have no customers.

NK: How much of your business relies on Canadian customers who would be traveling to the U.S.?

EL: Last year, 75 per cent of our customers are the Canadians and the other 25 per cent are the Americans. And no matter where they're from, as long as we have customers, it's fine. But we've seen a huge decrease with both.

NK: And have you had to change how you do business because of that dip?

EL: We tried to cut expenses, but there is a limit where we can cut.

NK: What have you cut so far?

EL: The next step, we're going to have to lay off employees.

NK: Yeah. I was going to ask you about that, if you've had to lay anyone off. What have you had to cut?

EL: We didn't do it yet because we were waiting for the next long weekend of Easter. And we'll see from there if we have customers or not. And if we no customers, if we have the same trend as we had since the beginning of April, we're gonna have to have to lay off employees no doubt.

NK: What would a normal Easter long weekend be for you in terms of sales?

EL: We can do easily $6,000-7,000 in three-four days, but if we just sell $1,000 or $2,000, that's going to be a disaster for us. And I am a very small store, too.

NK: Yeah. What are you telling your employees?

EL: I didn't tell anything yet so far.

NK: But they must know it's not good.

EL: Of course they know.

NK: Yeah. How do you keep busy in the store? Retail is not easy, but it's especially hard when there's no customers.

EL: We still receive orders of the product we purchased last fall. Because last fall, we didn't know that it would be so quiet at this time of the year, so we still receive merchandise that we ordered six months ago, and we keep our fingers crossed.

NK: There's certainly been a lot of discussion about supporting businesses affected by the U.S. tariffs, but what you're experiencing is different. It's not a direct tariff on goods. It's the impact, the domino effect.

EL: It's the boycott of people who are traveling in the U.S.

NK: Do you understand why, though, that they want to do that?

EL: Well, mostly, the politicians are asking people to boycott American products and to stay in Canada for their summer vacations, so this is the main problem we have.

NK: What would you like to see from politicians and leaders as they're on the campaign trail about what you need to survive and what help you need right now?

EL: We need people who's going to cross the border and leave Canada in order to have customers in our store.

NK: I hear what you're saying about what politicians have said, but I think there's been this sort of grassroots, sort of organic feeling among people across the country to just cancel their trips automatically. No one's telling them to do it. So, do you think, what would you want to say to people who don't feel comfortable traveling to the States right now?

EL: Well, people are afraid right now. I have customers today that ask if they're gonna seize their product, their purchase at my store. And nothing has really changed at U.S. Customs. People can still buy and they can still travel. So, if people like to travel in the U. S. for the vacations, well, just don't be afraid and still do it.

NK: That's so interesting that those are the kinds of questions they're asking you. If things don't improve, Eric, what would it mean for you to have to lay off employees, or even shut down your store?

EL: What kind of answer you would like to have? I started to work here in 1990 as a student. Then, I became the assistant manager, then the manager for 20 years, and I bought the store three years ago. So, for me, that store is my home.

NK: Eric, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

CH: Eric Lapointe is the owner of a duty free store near the Quebec border with Maine. We reached him in Saint-Théophile, Quebec.

[instrumental]

London Doorstep Baby

CH: Someone knocked on Bria Vanier's door in London, Ontario this week. She wasn’t expecting company. And she definitely wasn't expecting what she saw when she opened the door: two police officers, and a newborn baby boy wrapped in a flannel blanket on her front porch. It turns out, the baby had been left there, where a passerby heard its cries and called 911. London police are still searching for the baby's mother, who left a note asking that someone give the baby a good home. Ms. Vanier talked to the CBC about what happened.

SOUNDCLIP

BRIA VANIER: I was just up in my room, and then I heard some knocking on the door. And my roommate and I were like, oh, okay, let's go check it out. So, I opened the door, and there's two cops and there is a baby on the doormat [chuckling] wrapped up in a blanket. They asked if this baby belonged here, like, do I know who the mother is? And so, no, no idea. Total surprise to me. The note said, please give my baby a good home. I'm not able to care for him. He was a home birth. And I assumed it was the mother who wrote the note, but I'm not sure. But they said, you know, he doesn't like bright lights, and essentially was just asking for someone to care for him. Neither of the cops knew how to pick up a baby, so they just left him on the ground. So, I picked him up and brought him inside to get him warm. And so, I was just staring at this baby, and so I was feeling very maternal feelings, yeah. [chuckling]

KATE DUBINSKI: Adorable baby, I assume?

BV: The cutest thing. And he was just looking around. He must have been a little confused, [chuckling] but a sweet little thing. He was very alert and just looking around, kind of being like, what's going on? Yeah.

KD: How old do you think it would have been?

BV: From what I understand from what the cop said, the note said that he had been born the day before. You know, I think he was a little bit cold. That's what the paramedics said. He clearly had just been born. Like, he still had some umbilical cord on him and he still was a little bit messy. So, he really needed to get cleaned up.

KD: Anything that you want to say to the mom that might be listening?

BV: I felt that this was someone who was in a lot of pain to give up their child. It was someone who is desperate. I'm sorry that you are in a situation that you felt that you couldn't care for your child. And I hope that you're able to, I don't know, help fix the situation. Like, if you can come forward and deal with that. But otherwise, like, I understand the fear and the shame and stuff associated with why someone would do something like this. But at the same time, it's, you know, it's scary. And you can't leave your kid, like, alone. I would say that I would have some empathy for her, for sure.

CH: That was Bria Vanier, talking to CBC reporter Kate Dubinski. The baby boy is now in the care of the Children's Aid Society. Police in London, Ontario are still looking for the boy's mother.

[brisk instrumental]

Gairdner Winner

Guest: Daniel De Carvalho

CH: "Viral mimicry" sounds like a TikTok trend, but it's actually somewhat more important than that. It's a term for a novel approach to cancer therapy -- a technique that aims to induce a strong immune response from our bodies. And that technique is the focus of Daniel De Carvalho's research. He's a senior scientist at the Princess Margaret Cancer Centre and professor at the University of Toronto -- and has just won a 2025 Gairdner Award -- which celebrates breakthroughs in biomedical research. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Daniel, congratulations! Do you remember the moment you found out you'd won?

DANIEL DE CARVALHO: Yes, I do. I was actually on the plane getting ready to depart for a conference in Europe and I just received a phone call I wasn't expecting at all. So, it was difficult to believe in the beginning, but it was very exciting.

NK: It can be a bit worrying to get a call right before you get on a plane, or you're in a rush to board. What did they say?

DDC: Yeah, I just boarded. So, it was when everyone was getting settled that I was receiving the news and it was very exciting.

NK: [chuckling] Did they just say, hi, Daniel, you've won?

DDC: Yes, the foundation called me, mentioned that I have received the award, so I had to make them confirm a few times just to be sure it was true [chuckling] and that they got the right person. But yeah, I was very, very excited.

NK: Viral mimicry is at the heart of why you won this prize, as well as the development of a test for early cancer detection. What is viral mimicry?

DDC: Yes, viral mimicry is a concept that we developed here in Toronto. It's the idea that you can activate elements into the cell and make the cell looks like it's infected by a virus. Even though there is no viral infection, for the immune system, it looks exactly like the cell is infected by the virus. And the whole idea is, usually in cancer, during evolution, we don't have that strong immune response against cancer. The cancer cell is part of your cells that just go wrong, so the immune system doesn't pay that much attention to the cancer cells. But the viral-infected cells have millions of years of evolution, selecting us to have a very strong immune responses against any cell infected by a virus. So, the idea that we develop is, if we can activate these elements, make the cell, like, infected by a virus, you can have a very strong immune response against the cancer cell. And that's the concept of viral mimicry.

NK: And how have you seen it in practice help cancer patients?

DDC: Yeah, this is still somehow in the earlier days. We have started clinical trials, combining drugs that activate these viral-like elements and combining them with immunotherapy. Many of those trials are still ongoing in different cancer types. We're still trying to identify the best way to activate this. One thing is activating a cell in the dish. The other is actually in a patient. So, we kind of need to figure out exactly the best approach to do that. But the research is moving fast. We already have multiple clinical trials testing this.

NK: Ultimately, what would be success? What would it do for a cancer patient that, in your view, would make it a success for the research, but also for them?

DDC: Yeah, the success would be today immunotherapy is an excellent approach for cancer therapy. We have a percentage of patients that have very good response, they can live for almost a normal life being treated by immunotherapy. However, most of the cancer patients still do not benefit from that. There's still not enough to activate this immune response. So, the success would be that you have a very large proportion now of patients be able to respond to immunotherapy and actually have the tumor reduce and patient have a normal life after that.

NK: Did you always, as a child even, dream of doing this kind of work, of becoming a scientist?

DDC: Always as a child, I dreamed to become a scientist. I didn't know what type of scientist at that time. I've been growing up thinking maybe in physics, maybe in biology, maybe in chemistry. So, I've being moving fields as go from high school to college, until I find really my passion on this biological and biomedical science.

NK: And this is, you know, we're talking about the culmination of years of work to get to this point in your research, but also to win an award like this one. What was that, what was driving that passion? Was it curiosity, your need to solve this difficult problem, or something else?

DDC: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. I would say in the beginning of my career was fully driven by curiosity. I was really excited about the science, making questions that I couldn't answer, trying to figure out the answer for those questions. So, at that point, it was not so much applied science. It was really fundamental and basic science, trying to understand how these endogenous hetero elements, which activate this viral response work. But then, as I get better and better results, and working at Princess Margaret, which is a cancer hospital, we see the need of this to help patients. And the possibility of translating this science into a clinically-relevant discovery starts to motivate me more and more. So today, I would say most of my dream is actually trying to bring the science from the lab to the patient and that's my ultimate goal.

NK: Yeah. This is a pivotal moment in world history, Daniel, but also a time of great uncertainty in terms of scientific research and support for that kind of research. What do you make of this moment in time?

DDC: Yeah, yeah, this is something I'm also very concerned. It's somehow paradoxical because right now is the best time in history to do science in the sense of the technology that have been developed, our ability to sequence the whole genome, our ability to analyze thousands and thousands of samples at the same time. So, we are in a very unique time that we can do almost everything we can imagine. We can actually bring this to practice. However, we have this broader political situation that sometimes we're not receiving the funding that we need to bring this science to patients. There's sometimes questioning from the public in general how important is this research. So, I think a lot of things that I think ourselves as scientists, we need to communicate better with the public. And hopefully, that this impact will be seen and then people will change this mentality.

NK: Daniel, congratulations once again. I appreciate your time. Thank you.

DDC: Thank you very much.

CH: Daniel De Carvalho is a senior scientist at the Princess Margaret Cancer Centre, and the winner of the 2025 Peter Gilgan Canada Gairdner Momentum Award. We reached him in Toronto.

[elevator music]

LR: Invertebrate Of The Year

CH: This week on the program, we discussed the winner of the 2025 “Invertebrate of the Year” contest. To the delight of some, and the eyerolls of others, it was the tardigrade, which critics say is vastly overexposed and overrated. Again: I'm not saying that, they are. Then, we asked you to write in to tell us about your favourite invertebrate. And you delivered. Jennifer McIntyre in Toronto emailed us about, quote "a beautiful little marine gastropod called a nudibranch, also known as a sea slug." And she dares us all not to, quote, "fall down the dazzling rabbit hole that is the world of the nudibranch!" Unquote. We will try to avoid that, Jennifer, and we appreciate you writing in a pronouncer for us.

NK: I’m sure I’ve done an interview about a nudibranch on this program. Beth Dunlop in Courtnay, B.C. picked the earthworm. Which is actually a favourite of her two-year-old granddaughter -- not to mention a favourite of our guest: The Guardian’s Bibi van der Zee. Bob Zecker of Saint Andrews, Nova Scotia took things in a different direction, writing that his, quote, "favorite invertebrates, in no particular order, are Mitch McConnell, JD Vance, Lindsay Graham, and Marco Rubio." Unquote. And he signed off with an "elbows up", addressed to "Canadian vertebrates".

CH: Point taken, Bob. [Nk chuckles] And Annie Game took things in yet another direction when it comes to invertebrates, writing " My choice would be this guy I dated in the 80's… [NK laughs] he slithered off somewhere and I never bothered to look...but certainly a contender for this contest." No comment.

NK: We get it, Annie! We get it. I’ll make all the comments. We get it.

CH: Thanks to everyone who wrote in. And remember, you can always reach As It Happens by calling Talkback at 416-205-5687. Or email us at aih@cbc.ca. [please do that. I miss the Talkback beep. Let’s de-extinct the Talkback beep!]

[pop]

Encore: Stunt Oscar

CH: The Academy Awards are leaping into action today, with the announcement that a brand-new category will be honoured at the 2027 ceremony. For the first time ever, an Oscar will be presented in the new category of “Best Stunt Design”. That's great news for everyone who's been pushing for that recognition. But it comes too late to honour Jeannie Epper, who died last year at the age of 83. She was a mother and grandmother who did stunts in shows like Charlie's Angels, The Bionic Woman, and Wonder Woman -- as well as dozens of movies including The Towering Inferno, Romancing the Stone, and The Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift. Last year, Nil spoke to Amanda Micheli, who directed the documentary Double Dare, about Ms. Epper.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Amanda, when you think of Jeannie Epper, is there one stunt in particular that comes to mind?

AMANDA MICHELI: Glass ceiling smasher. [NK chuckles] That's, that's what I think of -- literally and figuratively.

NK: Yeah. She, I was just watching a little bit of your documentary. The scenes from Wonder Woman, the scenes from Romancing the Stone, tell us about what she told you about working on those. I mean, Wonder, I mean, iconic -- obviously -- Wonder Woman, but she's, she's one half of that role -- really.

AM: Yeah. And it's really interesting. When you start to talk to stunt women, you really gain an appreciation for the difference between female action and male action because the guys -- the stunt guys -- have a very hard job, right? This is a very macho subset of Hollywood. And these guys are hitting the ground and getting a smaller paycheque and making the stars look good. And then when you look at the women, they're doing the same job, sort of like the Fred Astaire-Ginger Rogers thing, except you're in a bathing suit with no pads falling down a flight of stairs. You know, look at Wonder Woman. The action that Jeannie was performing, she was essentially in a bathing suit, in high-heeled boots. And she told me that she finally convinced the producers to let her have flats. But it's incredible to think about what she achieved in that costume.

NK: And what was the pay like for them?

AM: You know, I think for, for all stunt performers, they get like a Screen Actors Guild minimum. And it's not so much that they're not making a decent day rate. It's how many days are you working a year? It's a constant hustle. And similar to professional athletes, your life span as a stunt performer is not that long. You know, you can't hit the ground in your 50s and 60s, day in, day out. But Jeannie kept doing that. It was very hard for her to get promoted into the more sort of managerial role of stunt coordinator, which is kind of the holy grail for an experienced stunt performer.

NK: Yeah -- in your documentary -- you see people, you know, men and women behind the scenes just they revere her, right? And they, they talk about her as an icon. But then you also show that hustle that you're talking about, working the phones, going through an actual Rolodex, and trying to drum up work.

AM: I know, I love that shot in the movie. It's a physical, actual Rolodex.

NK: [chuckle] Yes!

AM: When I see that, I'm like, oh my goodness! Yeah. I mean -- look -- it's -- to me -- Double Dare, and looking back at Jeannie's legacy now is very bittersweet for me because she achieved so much. She's essentially the matriarch of this stunt family -- a dynasty -- of four generations of stunt performers that came up from the Westerns. I mean, her dad doubled Gary Cooper and Errol Flynn and Ronald Reagan. He was a horseman -- a Swiss cavalryman -- who emigrated to the U.S. and worked with horses. So she came up in those early days of Hollywood, and she was like one of the boys. So she was always surrounded by, by a supportive and loving community, but very much bucking the odds in terms of making a career as a woman doing this.

NK: She had, she, she was raising a family as well -- a young family -- as she's doing all of that.

AM: Oh my God! She had her first child at 16. I looked back at the documentary the other day, and I remember seeing that photograph, and it hits me differently now. You know, I mean, I saw her right before she died. It was so incredible to be surrounded by her family. Her grandkids and her great-grandkids were there. But can you imagine having a baby at 16 and then going to work on a movie set with a bunch of cowboys? I mean, she lived a crazy life. There's a lot of stories. But that role of being a mother, she was a, she had a baby when she was a baby, and she became a mother and a mother hen to a whole community. And that's -- again -- bittersweet for me because it's a beautiful thing. But I think she also gave a lot of herself, and she wasn't necessarily the best at taking care of herself. And I think that's true for a lot of women.

NK: Yeah.

AM: Especially in male-dominated industries. We, we wear all the hats, right? We do it all. It's like the old lean-in thing. And then -- at the end of the day -- what do you love to wear when you go to bed at night? I mean, Jeannie got married four times. Read between the lines what her personal life was like. It was hard.

NK: Yeah.

AM: So it's just a really fascinating story for me about sort of the history of women in America, women in Hollywood, and female representation on screen. And the real Wonder Woman had a tough go of it. And that -- to me -- that's part of what her story is.

NK: It says a lot to me that, that, and about your relationship that you cultivated making this film and since that, that you were there in her last moments.

AM: Yeah, it was it, it's been an interesting week for me. Really hard because I feel like I became friends with her. But it's always a slightly different kind of friendship when you're a filmmaker.

NK: Sure.

AM: Because you have to recognize you have a, a job to do to tell someone's story honestly and truthfully and also with a critical eye. And then you also build a friendship. I loved Jeannie, and I still love her, and I love her family. And I also feel a responsibility to help curate her legacy and tell people her story. And part of that for me is the bumps and bruises, and that was always a tricky thing to navigate when we were filming, too. We filmed for almost -- I think -- six years. So I was, I had my camera on my shoulder following her through her ups and downs, and we always had that talk of, like, it's important for people to see the hard moments too. And that's what you sometimes don't see in the Hollywood version.

NK: Yeah.

AM: So yeah, it's -- to me -- it's an honour. It's an honour that she, she shared her story with me and entrusted me with it.

NK: How do you want her -- ultimately -- to be remembered?

AM: I would love for Jeannie to be remembered as someone who kicked doors open for other women. She inherited a legacy and then opened it up to more. You know, she didn't just keep it in her family. She created a larger family and a sisterhood of mentoring younger women and inspiring, you know, through the documentary that we made and also just through the coverage that she's had in her passing to inspire women not only in Hollywood but in all sorts of male-dominated industries to, to follow their dreams and, you know, suit up and go out and do the job with courage.

NK: Amanda, my condolences to you. I know you lost a friend here but, but I appreciate your time.

AM: Thank you. And thanks so much for telling her story.

CH: That was an encore presentation of Nil's conversation from last year, with Amanda Micheli, director of the documentary, Double Dare.

The AIH Transcript For April 11, 2025

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