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The AIH Transcript for May 06, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

CO: Vax Populi. After the Biden administration moves to suspend intellectual property for COVID-19 vaccines -- a health-patent activist wonders why the Trudeau government hasn't done the same.

CH: Insult to devastating injury. A new report says the LA County Sheriff's Department has been harassing the families of people killed by their officers, including our guest who lost her son and now says she feels terrorized by the police.

CO: Mane event. After years of fighting the captive breeding of lions in South Africa, our guest is thrilled about a change in policy she says is "the beginning of the end" of the damaging practice.

CH: Twisting in the wind...shield. His Zoom background suggested he was in a home office -- but an Ohio state senator gets the gears when it becomes clear he was driving during an online meeting.

CO: Luckily, only the story has really blown up. While gardening last weekend, a woman in Missouri unearthed a mysterious corroded object near her grapevines -- which turned out to be a live bomb.

CH: And …dairily beloved. An Australian couple was in the middle of getting married on their farm -- when the bride ran off to help her favourite cow give birth.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Thursday edition. Radio that's not sure about her dress, but her wedding was calf-length.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: US Patent Waiver for Vaccines, SA Bans Lion Breeding, WW2 Bomb Found

US Patent Waiver

Guest: Priti Krishtel

CH: Joe Biden is ready to change the rules for drug makers, if that's what it takes to end the pandemic. Yesterday, the US President announced that he would support the suspension of intellectual property rights over COVID-19 vaccines. That's a major reversal for a country that made patent protection a point of pride, but advocates say it's necessary to expand vaccine access in the developing world. Here's how the US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy explained the move last night on CNN.

SOUNDCLIP

VIVEK MURTHY: It was a statement that put people over patents. It was about leading in the world and helping producing what the world needed at a time of unprecedented crisis. If we stick together, if we work together, if we help work and collaborate with countries around the world, I do believe we will turn this pandemic around.

CH: Priti Krishtel is the Co-Founder and Co-Executive Director of the Initiative for Medicines, Access & Knowledge. She's in Oakland, California.

CO: Ms. Krishtel, you just heard the U.S. surgeon general what he had to say about putting people over patents. How do you respond?

PRITI KRISHTEL: I think it's an important statement, and it's really a historic moment for the United States. We've never seen this kind of leadership before. I've been doing this now for two decades. I've never heard a president of my country come out and talk about putting people first before intellectual property rights. So I think it's hugely significant.

CO: Besides being significant and being a very, very bold statement, where does it take us as far as making the patents on vaccines available to the world?

P.K.: I think we have a number of barriers to scaling up manufacturing around the world to get vaccines into the hands of people to really turn the course of this pandemic. Waiving intellectual property across medical products is an important first step. So the Biden administration's statement signalling that they will support the waiver is going to be a precursor to bringing other countries on board and to entering into negotiations. If they are able to exercise the same level of decisive leadership throughout the negotiation process, we have a real shot at scaling up manufacturing over the course of the next year to get as many vaccines as possible to as many people as possible.

CO: The German government pushed back today on the United States and warned that the suspension of patents would create, quote, severe complications for the production of vaccines. Among many things that would remove the profit motive, the incentive for companies to actually make these vaccines. So what do you say to the German chancellor?

P.K.: I think at the heart of this issue is a question of racial equity. We are seeing a map that is showing disparities unlike any we've seen in the last century in the face of a global pandemic. I think the governments of not only Germany, but all across Europe, of the U.K., of the United States, Canada, we need to see firm, decisive action that really recognizes who is being left behind here? And that is Black and Brown people all across the globe.

CO: Would it really, though, lead to people around the globe getting vaccines. I mean, you say within a year, we could start seeing this ramped up a level that wouldn't be possible without removing these… this intellectual property status. Is that the case? Is that what you're saying?

P.K.: Intellectual property is one of the critical steps that needs to happen, waiving the intellectual property, entering into partnership, collaborating to share science and technology right now, to share know-how and expertise in order to scale up manufacturing. Those are the next steps. We haven't seen that yet enough in this pandemic. So for governments to step in when the market does not incentivize drug makers to take certain actions, it is absolutely going to be game-changing. And we are going to see vaccine scale-up in the months that lie ahead.

CO: The industry, the pharmaceutical industry, is not happy about this, as you probably know, and pretty obvious. One of the arguments is that they said that it won't do anything to speed up vaccine production. That they said that the important things are the raw materials and the technology that's required, that there are so many components, so many suppliers in different countries, there's highly specialized equipment personnel. It's akin to making recipes available and none of the ingredients.

P.K.: I've heard these arguments from the industry today as well. And here's what I have to say. I think that if I.P. didn't matter, they wouldn't be fighting it this hard. Intellectual property lies at the heart of their power to control markets. And what we're reminding them in this moment is that this is about people, not markets.

CO: Well, but I guess what their argument is as well, is that they make these things at great cost. They take risks. And the question back is that who will make the vaccines next time if they don't feel that they are able to own the intellectual property of those vaccines?

P.K.: You know, what we've really seen in the case of this pandemic is we've really come to understand as a global public that vaccines are actually a failed market. That how governments have had to step in and pump in public funding, taxpayer dollars to fund so much of this vaccine research. We have essentially socialized the risk and privatized the profit. In the case of Moderna, for example, that is a vaccine that is nearly 100 per cent U.S. taxpayer-funded. So I think it's disingenuous for the industry to be arguing that they've taken all the risks.

CO: We have asked the Canadian government for an interview today. So far, we're not hearing anything out of our own government. As to where it stands, it's been kind of vague what they've said so far as of late afternoon today. When we are able to ask them something, what questions would you like us to put to the Trudeau government?

P.K.: No, the Canadian government has really led by example on so many issues, and that we Americans have really learned from you all actually watching your government in action to show what bold policy can look like. We're simply unable to understand why the Canadian government is actually not at the forefront of leading on this issue? And we're really looking to make sure that you all are exercising that global leadership. That you are all showing that you understand the severity of this crisis and the need for there not to be business as usual policies in the face of a pandemic.

CO: We will put that to our government if and when we get the opportunity to do so. And I appreciate speaking with you, Ms. Krishtel. Thank you.

P.K.: Thanks so much.

CO: Bye-bye.

P.K.: Bye.

CH: Priti Krishtel is the Co-Founder and Co-Executive Director of the Initiative for Medicines, Access & Knowledge. She's in Oakland, California.

[music: upbeat pop]

SA Bans Lion Breeding

Guest: Louise de Waal

CH: Big cats are a big part of travel and tourism in South Africa. But the economic boost they provide has come at a terrible cost. In the '90s, some farmers started breeding lions in captivity. More lions meant more opportunities for tourists to pet cubs and take photos with them. And more "trophy hunts" of adult lions. Which also meant a terrible life for the animals.Now South Africa has banned captive lion breeding -- and made it illegal to hunt, or interact with, captive lions. Louise de Waal is a former tour operator, and the campaign manager of "Blood Lions" -- and the director of a documentary by the same name. She's in Cape Town.

CO: Louise, I know you have been calling for an end to this captive lion breeding for many years. So how does it feel today to see this ban?

LOUISE DE WAAL: I have to admit, this is so much better than we would ever have dreamed of. And [exclaims] the beginning of the end. There's still a long and bumpy road ahead, but this is such a shift in the government's thinking as well. So, yeah, we are absolutely thrilled.

CO: And why do you think the government has made this shift? I mean, this is a huge business, isn't it? Lots of revenue comes in. What is it that brought them to this point where the government says, no, this has to stop?

LDW: This is a sector that brings money in. But I think in comparison to the damage it's doing that the government has realized that it needs to be brought to an end. There's more and more evidence available that the industry, especially that the bone trade and body parts, is actually posing a risk to lion conservation in the wild. Poaching of body parts, especially paws and teeth. And on top of that, it's damaging our tourism brand as well. And obviously, the overall tourism brings in a lot more money than this particular part of... of that sector.

CO: You mentioned the bone trade, but there are all kinds of... of ways that these lion breeders are making money from these creatures. And maybe just, first of all, give us a sense, these... these lions are born and bred in captivity. Give us a sense of what their life is like.

LDW: Their life is generally way too short and very restricted. Cubs are being born in captivity. They are ripped away from their mothers within days of birth. This brings their mother back into a breeding cycle again, much quicker than in the wild. They're becoming breeding machines. Those cubs are being born and taken away from the mothers. That is when the paying volunteers come in to actually hand-rear them. They're very quickly, within four weeks, maybe even less, they are then used for cub petting. So they're being put in enclosures where the paying public can interact with them, take pictures. And of course, you know, they're mega-cute, they're still small, but that captive life, that petting life isn't very long for a lion because they grow up quickly, they become boisterous, they become too strong to be interacted with. Then a lot of them are then used for walking with lions-type activities that sometimes involve really quite cruel training methods until about a year at the most. And that's when they're really not safe to interact with anymore.

CO: So at what point are these lions then taken into this other abhorrent part of the business, which is that they're in an enclosed area and hunters can come in and get trophies by killing them?

LDW: That is when they have matured. So they would have to be kept in a holding facility for another couple of years more until, especially the males, they have nice big manes. That's when they're then used and sold as hunting trophies. These are the same lions that were totally habituated to people. They have been dependent on people all their lives. And then they're being released into a smallish enclosure and very often shot from, you know, a safari-type vehicle. So there's no way to escape for these animals. So it's all done and over with within hours.

CO: We have certainly seen people posting on their social media, their catches, their trophies, posing with them. And what do you... when you see that, what is it actually has happened, how they managed to have this trophy?

LDW: They have actually chosen a trophy virtually from a menu. They've said I want this lion, and they know they can hunt it within a day. A wild hunt would take them probably two weeks with very fairly low chance of success or rate of success, whereas these canned hunts, they virtually have 100 per cent success rate. So it's a very easy way of hunting. Even a fair number of the professional hunters, in their own sector, They have always condemned the canned hunting industry because there is no fair chase involved.

CO: I like this phrase, canned hunting, which is what it is. And the other side of it is that South Africa has now banned this... this industry. But there are, what, about 10-thousand lions still in captivity? What is to become of them?

LDW: I think we need to wait and see how the government are going to roll out all these good intentions. What they would have to do, first and foremost, is actually stop the breeding. If we stop the breeding, at least we can't get any more lions. And unfortunately, you know, we... we cannot house that number of lions in sanctuaries. These animals also can't be released back into the wilds. They are habituated. They have compromised genetics. They've never fended for themselves. So these lions are not up to release into a wild habitat either. So a proper audit will need to be done so we know how many animals we're actually dealing with and then identify with welfare experts and veterinarians to see which of these lions are healthy, which are unhealthy, which are inbred, which are too old. And we will probably have to humanely euthanize those animals. And then we have to look at what's left over. And hopefully, we will be able to hire some of those in sanctuaries.

CO: Wow! Well, at least it will have come to an end and this cruel treatment of these lions. Louise, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LDW: Thank you so much for having us.

CH: Louise de Waal is the manager for a campaign called Blood Lions. We reached her in Cape Town, South Africa.

[music: electronic]

WW2 Bomb Found

Guest: Pamela Coffey

CH: Pamela Coffey is the kind of person who finds the needle in the haystack -- or as her husband Sam puts it more positively, the four-leaf clover in the field. And this weekend, when she was out in her yard gardening, she found an unusual object covered with mud and rust. Which turned out to be rare, all right -- but not necessarily lucky. We reached Pamela Coffey in Barnhart, Missouri.

CO: Pamela, has it completely sunk in that you had a live bomb in your hands recently?

PAMELA COFFEY: It is still just kind of outside [laughing] my head, my realm here. It's... it's still kind of being wrapped around in my brain, honestly.

CO: How did you come to discover this in your garden?

PC: Just tinkering with the grapevines, trying to make sure they grow on the fence and not the trees. And I just looked down and seen something and kind of unearthed it with my hands. And little did I know. [both laughing]

CO: Now, your husband says that you have an eye for finding things like this.

PC: I do, yes. And he... it's one of the things he loves about me, right? [CO chuckles] Yeah, I found him! [laughing]

CO: Right. OK, well, lucky you're with him then with this one. So what did you... what did you think it was when you first encountered it?

PC: I honestly had no idea. I was thinking maybe it was from some kind of a pulley device. When I brought it inside to show my husband while it was still all dirty, he suggested it might have been a deep-sea fishing lure or a weight of some form. And I looked at it, and I was like, yeah, and it has that look to it. But there's no... there's no holes. That's something you need for fishing. [CO chuckles] And I just took it over and started scrubbing it up in the sink. That's when I noticed the Japanese lettering on it. But it was still pretty encrusted with Earth. So my husband sat down, and he started trying to carve out the crevices of it with a steak knife so we could read it better.

CO: Aaaaaaaaaaaa!

PC: After… after that is when I was doing the research on it, and I was like, oh, my God, stop! I was like, I know this sounds crazy. I'm probably completely wrong, but I think it looks like a bomb. It can't be.

CO: Did he stop with the steak knife at that point?

PC: Immediately, yes. [laughing] Immediately, he did. But I…. on the off chance that we were right, we took it right back outside. And as soon as we got it out there, like on the far end of our driveway, we're like, OK, so now what? Let's go to Google. Let's turn to the Internet. I posted it on my Facebook page and in a group on Facebook, but nobody was helping me out fast enough. So Google to the rescue. And it said call law enforcement. [CO chuckles] So that's exactly what we did!

CO: Like call law enforcement now?

PC: Basically, yes. The non-emergency line, she seems kind of confused. I guess, you know, they don't get calls every day to say, I think there might be a bomb in my backyard. [CO laughs]

CO: So who arrived at that point?

PC: It was Jefferson County Police Department, and the police officer was looking at it just like we were, you know? And he took a couple photos with it while it was in his hand. And he sent it over to the ATF, and they said, put it down right now. And then they sent out the bomb and arson unit, who had an X-ray machine with them. And they were able to determine that it was, in fact, a live bomb.

CO: Oh, my gosh!

PC: And then from there, they called the Air Force, who had the explosion ordnance disposal unit come out. There was quite a few different units and forces here at our house. And after the bomb and arson unit determined that it was, in fact, a bomb and it was live, they made us go all the way to the far end of our house just in case.

CO: [chuckling] Just in case, what? Did they give you an idea of how big a detonation this thing might have if it went off?

PC: They said that it had a potential of a 500-foot blast range.

CO: [chuckling] Oh, no! My gosh. And your husband was going at it with a steak knife!

PC: I know! We were beside ourselves. We still are.

CO: OK, we're laughing about it. But do you have kids, were there people home when you were doing this?

PC: Yeah, absolutely. We have a few of them running around. We have a 20-year-old who pulled up in the middle of all of this mess, who was very grateful that his family was still in one piece. And then we have a fourteen-year-old who is having a friend stay the night. And you can say that was a very interesting sleepover for those guys. And we got a little five-year-old girl who is basically my shadow. So she was out there with me whenever I was signed and stuff.

CO: OK, so this is going to be a part of the family lore, I guess?

PC: [laughing] Absolutely.

CO: OK, so how did all this come to a conclusion?

PC: After we were carving on it with a steak knife and washing it in our sink, this delicate robot very carefully takes it, places it in the basket and brings it up into the back of the special truck that can handle explosions from the inside. And then they took it to Scott Air Force Base in Illinois, and they blew it up.

CO: Do they... now you saw Japanese writing on it? Did they tell you what… where it might have come from, why it was there?

PC: They said it was definitely a World War Two Japanese naval bomb. And they said they had no idea how it got here.

CO: You're in Missouri, right?

PC: Yes.

CO: [chuckling] OK. Have you learned anything as to how it is that there could be a World War Two-era Japanese bomb among your grapevines?

PC: There's been a couple of theories. One is that this was a soldier's souvenir. And the other theory is that Japan had these intricate balloon system bombs that they set off into the Gulf Stream. And there was actually one discovered in Kansas. So their theory is that this could be a balloon bomb that just happened to make it all the way this way. But I'm pretty sure this is going to stay a mystery.

CO: [laughing] I've seen pictures of those balloon bombs that they... and they dropped all over the place. People have found them in strange places. So maybe that's how they ended up in your yard.

PC: Maybe! We'll be buying a metal detector to try to find more, though.

CO: Well, besides narrowly averting a complete disaster and having your house blown up, how are your grapevines?

PC: [laughing] They're happily on my fence now.

CO: All in a day's work.

PC: Right?! [chuckling]

CO: Pamela, it's a great story. I appreciate you telling it to us.

PC: Oh, thank you so much, Carol.

CO: Take care.

PC: You, too. Bye.

CH: Pamela Coffey found a Second World War bomb in her garden this weekend. We reached her at home, in Barnhart, Missouri.

[music: indie rock]

Senator Driving On Zoom

[a car drives loudly]

CH: Maybe he thought it was a steering committee. [chuckle] Or... or I guess he's the driving force behind the... the thing, yeah, that… aw, come on! [a car horn] Watch it! [a double horn honk] Sorry about that. Where was I? Oh, yeah. Whatever the case. Ohio State Senator, um... what is his name? I got to find his name. [a car swerves] Oh, sorry. Sorry. [honking] OK, OK! [honking] Oh, jeez! You know what, I... I better pull over. [tires screech] Now I can concentrate. That was really distracting, and I was only pretending to drive. So you can see why people are a little upset with Ohio State Senator Andrew Brenner. On Monday, he was part of a Zoom meeting of the Ohio Controlling Board. When it started, he was sitting in his car. But once his colleagues got the show on the road, so did Senator Brenner. First, he changed his Zoom background to what looks like a home office. A minute later, he was noticeably checking both ways before making a turn with his seatbelt on while his glitchy, Zoomed background continued to unconvincingly insist he was in that home office. "I wasn't distracted," Senator Brunner told the Columbus Dispatch. I was paying attention to the driving and listening to the meeting. OK, except that he went out of his way to set a Zoom background, and he kept looking at the camera and nodding as if to say, I'm certainly in a room, all right. All of which makes it seem, ironically, like he was really not up to speed.

[music: indie rock rubber ducky]

Part 2: ACLU Families Report, Wedding Cow Birth

ACLU Families Report

Guest: Leah Garcia

CH: A new report shows that some families in Los Angeles who've lost loved ones to police shootings faced a double trauma. The initial grief -- and then the harassment and intimidation that came later, from the very same police responsible for the killing. The report is co-authored by the ACLU and the National Lawyers Guild. It looks at the experiences of several families of people killed in deputy-involved shootings by the LA County Sheriff's department. Leah Garcia was interviewed for that report. She's the mother of 18-year-old Paul Rea, who was shot and killed during a traffic stop by an LASD deputy in June 2019. Since then, Ms. Garcia and her family say they've been followed by patrol cars, laughed at, pulled over, and even arrested. We reached Leah Garcia in Los Angeles.

CO: Leah, what do you hope that this report might accomplish?

LEAH GARCIA: Accountability for the sheriff's department. And, you know, just hoping this stops, you know, the harassment. Ridiculous, it just... it's just traumatic for us.

CO: This report says that the Los Angeles sheriff deputies frequently harass the families of people they have killed. And this is something that you experienced after a deputy killed your son in 2019. How would you characterize the way that that department has treated your family since that... that killing?

LG: Like, we're not human. I want to say dogs. Maybe that they treat us like we're nothing. Never has been really a good encounter with them. and we don't… I don't come off, you know, when I'm pulled over, or I'm approached, I never... you know, I'm very... I listen to what they say. I do not go crazy. I just, you know, compose myself. And it's still the same from all of them.

CO: How often have you been pulled over?

LG: Well, a few times already. Or just put up on. You know, I'm at the gas station, or they'll pull up on me and ask me where do I live now? They'll ask me, what gang am I from? Just because I guess I have tattoos, but that does not make who I am, you know? And they'll say that to me. They said that on a few occasions already.

CO: Your daughter has also had these experiences, right?

LG: Yes, both of them.

CO: One occasion, you've just said that you had a... there was an alleged seatbelt violation, and you and your daughter had to sit in the back of a deputy's car for quite a while. These kinds of things. Do they... do they know who you are? Do they know about your... about your son?

LG: That's the thing. I feel that they do. They do because they'll mention something about him. Or I have a picture on my dashboard, so they'll say, oh, that was your son. Or they'll mention something, you know, relating to Paul. So I'm more than positive. Yeah, I mean, it's not a coincidence. I wouldn't say it's a coincidence, no.

CO: Also, when there have been vigils for your son, there have been deputies that have shown up at those things. Can you tell us about those occasions?

LG: Yes, they'll pull up. One occasion was really traumatic for us. They pulled up. It was the Day of the Dead. So... but that day was special because it was a day that we spoke up for the first time. We spoke about... we mentioned the sheriff that killed my son. So we had, you know, poster boards and stuff. And we went to a town hall meeting previously to going to my son's memorial. So we go to my son's memorial, and not even maybe 30 minutes into it, we are doing that the Day of the Dead -- it's a ceremony. So we're placing things on an altar. They pull up, 10 cars with their lights off, they step out of the vehicles, and they're just standing there looking at us at first. And I'm like, this is really strange. And I said, can I help you? And that day was very bad because they arrested my daughter. They arrested her. We didn't know where she was for two hours. When they placed her in handcuffs, they placed her hand like above her head almost. It was very traumatic for me and my family because I'm watching this, and I'm cannot help my daughter. And I'm screaming. I'm saying, please let my daughter go. She didn't do anything. And I started throwing up. When they got there, she was recording them, right? So when they placed her under arrest, the phone was... it was unlocked. So they got that video, all that footage, and erased it.

CO: Can you tell us, you know, your son was pulled over for a traffic stop, your son Paul, when he was killed, how did it come that this deputy shot him?

LG: Yeah, it was... it was a routine traffic stop, supposedly. They approached the car with their guns out. When my son and his best friend asked, you know, what are we getting pulled over for? They cursed at them and said, don't ef-in worry about it. And they said, well, we have a right. They said, no, you don't have any ef-in rights. Don't move before we shoot... blow your heads off. Saavedra, the officer that shot my son, he started reaching in the back seat, trying to open that back door. When he pulled my son out, at that point, Paul was in fear. He broke loose, and he ran. Paul didn't even get four feet away from Saavedra, where Saavedra shot him in his neck and three other shots. And they left him there to die because the block where he, you know, he passed away at, they blocked it off with patrol cars so the ambulance couldn't get in there for like 20... 15 to 20 minutes. Saavedra tried to say that there was a scuffle. But he said he never saw no weapon, that it was a look in my son's eyes that did it for him.

CO: I'm so sorry.

LG: Thank you.

CO: And the… this deputy, Hector Saavedra, is that his name?

LG: Um-hmm.

CO: Were there any consequences for him? Was... was he ever charged?

LG: No, no, it was never… you know, when Jackie Lacey was in charge, you know, the D.A. in Los Angeles, she said it was justifiable. She wrote in the report it was justifiable, but she didn't see what the officer said. It didn't add up, but it was justifiable.

CO: How soon after your son's death did you begin to notice that the sheriff's department of Los Angeles was... was harassing you in the way you've described?

LG: The day after, they started harassing. They came really deep, maybe 10 patrol cars as well, circling. We're having a little prayer for him. They came taunting us, sticking their tongues at us, flipping us off, laughing at us. I didn't believe that that was happening from, you know, officers. I didn't think that was possible.

CO: Is this also the occasion when, apparently, a helicopter was also over top of one of the memorials you had?

LG: No, that's another time. There's probably a few times that they fly over. And then we know that, you know, that they're coming. The patrol cars are coming.

CO: Do you think that this report, because you're not the only family in it, there are others who have... have similar stories. Do you think there are others who just haven't spoken up that may speak up now?

LG: Oh, yeah, there's a... there's... I know there's a lot. Those are the ones that, you know, they really… they live in fear because of different situations. Maybe they are afraid of getting deported. I know families like that. So they just move out of, you know, out of the state, actually, because they fear them so much.

CO: Are you at all worried that since you have gone so public and been part of... a major part of this report, that the harassment might increase or actually accelerate?

LG: I lost everything already. I lost my son. But I don't fear for myself. I fear for my other children. But no, I feel like I'm going to keep on speaking till my last breath because Paul does not have a voice anymore. So I have to be Paul's voice.

CO: Leah, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LG: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CH: Leah Garcia is the mother of 18-year-old Paul Rea, who was shot and killed during a traffic stop by a deputy with the L.A. County Sheriff's Department in June 2019.

[music: folk guitar]

Jason Kenney Restrictions

CH: Alberta Premier Jason Kenney wants people to know he's serious about getting the third wave of COVID in his province under control. This week, the premier brought in tighter health restrictions. Kids are back at home instead of in school. Patios are closed. And no one is getting a haircut. His government also says it will also hand out tougher penalties for those flouting the rules -- days after an illegal rodeo was held in central Alberta. The province currently has the highest active case rate anywhere in Canada or the United States. But this morning, Jason Kenney defended his track record.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON KENNEY: Well, in fact, we've had a mandatory mandate in for nearly half a year in Alberta. This is the first government in Canada that, while the federal government was discouraging mask use a year ago, we were encouraging it, providing millions of free masks. We had very strong restrictions in for, you know, there have been thousands of businesses, like in the entertainment sector, closed for 14 months. It's been illegal to visit people for indoor socializing, including grandparents visiting their grandkids for nearly six months. I wouldn't... so I don't think it's reasonable to say that we've had few restrictions. We've tried to take a middle-ground approach. I know there are some who would have preferred what could be called a hard lockdown, stay-at-home orders and curfews, and the constant closure of schools, the suspension of most businesses. But, frankly, I don't think that would necessarily have encouraged compliance. At the end of the day, what we're seeking is compliance and not stringency for the sake of it. And as I say, our neighbouring provinces have broadly similar policies. And yet... and yet, they see their numbers going down. So there are a lot of factors at play here.

MARK CONNOLLY: Now, you announced that initial fines for ignoring public health measures will double to two-thousand dollars. Justice Minister Madu talked about increasing coordination between enforcement groups like police and AHS. If something happens, again, like last weekend's rodeo in Bowden, what would happen if that happened again?

JK: Well, ultimately, that's... that's a call that the enforcement agencies are going to make. I'll say in that particular case. I know the RCMP in Alberta did successfully reach out to the local Bowden rodeo grounds, the town, and a number of rodeo associations and managed to get them to cancel their involvement. Unfortunately, the organizers came up with a plan c at the last minute. If this kind of thing happens in the future, we've made it clear through this protocol that the agencies can use various legal tools, like, for example, a section in the Public Health Act that allows enforcement agencies to go to the Queen's Court of Queen's Bench and get a court order to prevent an event that could be a violation of public health restrictions. So we've made sure people know that those tools are there. There's a protocol now to ensure greater cooperation between the agencies. We are strongly encouraging the Department of Justice to hire additional dedicated prosecutors, including going outside their... their shop to hire law firms, if necessary, to help with that.

CH: Alberta Premier Jason Kenney speaking to "CBC Edmonton" host Mark Connolly today.

[music: ambient]

Wedding Cow Birth

Guest: Jessa Laws

CH: With pandemic restrictions easing in Australia, Jessa and Ben Laws' wedding was set to be a memorable party. And it was, not because the best man gave a terrible speech. But because the bride ran away to help her favourite cow give birth. Their wedding was held on their farm on the southwest coast of Victoria. And Ms. Laws didn't hesitate before jumping from the dance floor into the mud to help -- while still in her wedding dress. We reached Jessa Laws in Gorae, Australia.

CO: Jessa, how is the calf and the mum doing?

JESSA LAWS: The calf, Destiny, and mum, Drama, are both going absolutely fantastically. The calf's big and healthy. And Mum's cruising along. We gave her a little bit of pain relief after the birth because it was such a large calf. And after that, she hasn't looked back.

CO: And how is your wedding dress?

JL: Ah, can't say the same for that one. It is absolutely trashed. From the knee down, it's very muddy and damaged. So I'm pretty sure it won't be salvageable. But, you know, it is only a dress.

CO: [chuckling] Well, there are some beautiful pictures of you and the dress before all this begins. [chuckling] So that's... at least you have that.

JL: Yeah, I'm actually really grateful that we got a good photographer. So we have got the memories of the dress, and that's all that matters.

CO: All right. But what you have is really big memories for what happened in the middle of your wedding. And so were you aware as you were heading up the aisle or doing your vows that it was possible that your… that your cow might be giving birth on your wedding day?

JL: With a name like Drama, we had made the jokes that she would no doubt birth on our wedding day. She was about three or four days overdue by the time our wedding day came around because we did have a feeling that she might go on that day. And sure enough, she did.

CO: At what point did you learn that the… that your cow was giving birth?

JL: I had a friend who is a dairy farmer that was keeping an eye on her. And he came back at one stage and said, look, I think she's... she's going to calve tonight. She's thinking about it. Famous words of a dairy farmer, she's thinking about it. [CO chuckles] And he went back every hour or so and just kept checking on her. And at one stage, came and told me that was two feet showing. So we knew it was definitely happening then. And it was probably about two hours later. He said, look, we're going to have to assist it. Just, we need to help. It's not... nothing's happening. Nothing's progressing.

CO: And so what was your impulse for you… I mean, because you had people, there were farmers there, others, lots of farmers at your wedding. So what was your impulse to be there for the birth?

JL: Well, [chuckle] we probably had about 80 guests there at that stage, and it's pretty much like a human birth. They need help. You drop everything, and you help. So I didn't even think about my guests, didn't think about my dress, that's for sure. I headed straight down to the dairy. The dairy was the opposite direction of the house, from the wedding. So it didn't make sense to go past the house to get changed. It was just head straight down there and make sure that everyone was OK. And by everyone, I mean the cow and calf.

CO: And how difficult was the birth?

JL: If you can see the photos... or the photos if anyone has seen the photos, the calf was stained yellow, and that's a really good indication of a stressed birth. So she wouldn't have been born without human intervention. So, you know, it was... it was a big calf. It was an easy assist, but it was definitely needed.

CO: Jessa, did you let Ben know that you were heading out to take part of this birth?

JL: From pretty much the moment we started the wedding reception, we barely saw each other. You know, with... Australia's had really strict lockdowns with COVID since sort of March last year. We'd already had to postpone our wedding once. And this was probably one of the first social events that a lot of our friends and family had been able to get to since February last year. So everyone was keen to talk. Everyone was keen to catch up. You know, Ben and I have bought a property, we've been busy, you know, we've learned to make cheese. You know, we had so much to talk about with our guests. And I hadn't actually. I think I'd come across him maybe once or twice to do the speeches and to do a dance. And other than that, we were just... we were talking.

CO: Basically, this... the reception was going on without you. Did you go back in your… [chuckling] in your trashed wedding dress to rejoin it?

JL: Yes, I walked up from the dairy and went straight in. And of course, I was excited about the news of this calf. There was probably maybe 15, 20 people down there who had been watching the events unfold and had taken photos. So as we put the calf and the mum back of the paddock and, you know, they were OK, the calf was up and walking. We came back up to the reception, [chuckle] everyone just kind of looked at me, sort of looking at the dress and started going what's happened for those who didn't know. And, of course, the story of the calf's birth that unfolded. So it was just an added… you know, the city people were absolutely amazed. My farming friends were just like, yep, that's what we expected of Jessa. [both chuckling] So it... I wore the dress until about 4:30 that morning.

CO: Lovely! And did people think... not... not surprised that your wedding cake was of your homemade cheese?

JL: No! So it was about a year ago, it was my birthday, and I posted on Facebook a shout-out to all my friends and family that I would like to learn how to make cheese. We milk our cows, and we had surplus milk. And making cheese was something I was really… I love eating cheese. I have surplus milk. Why not learn how to make it? And it was just one of those things that I've been very passionately making cheese, posting photos, talking about the process. So for my friends who know me, not surprised. I think they were surprised at how pretty... it was an absolutely amazing-looking cake.

CO: Wow. And sounds like an absolutely amazing wedding?

JL: It was. It was. I'd love to go back and do it again well-rested [CO chuckles] and perhaps without a calf this time, so I could actually enjoy it a little bit more. But when you're farming, you don't get to stop. We're farmers 100 per cent of the time. It's just this one per cent time... one per cent was when we got married and had a party.

CO: It sounds like you'll have many memories and you'll be telling your children about that day. And... and we have lots of great pictures, too. [chuckling} Jessa, it's great to talk to you. And congratulations to both of you.

JL: Thank you so much.

CH: That was dairy farmer Jessa Laws. She dashed away from her recent wedding, in her wedding dress, to help her prize cow give birth. We reached her in Gorae, Australia.

[music: folk]

Frankie Meets Frank… And There Are Bagpipes Involved

CH: Four-year-old Frankie Whelan's favourite day of the week is Friday. That's the day that he gets to dress up in almost full Scottish regalia, and head out to Lonsdale avenue in North Vancouver to see his mentor -- a man known as the Pink Pied Piper. The Pink Pied Piper, also known as Frank Wimberley, also known as "Big Frank", spends every Friday evening playing his bagpipes as a tribute to health workers. And when four-year-old Frankie first heard those bagpipes, he was smitten. Here are Frankie and his father, Gerard Whelan, speaking with CBC Vancouver.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANKIE WHELAN: The Big Frank, he’ll often play real bagpipes.

WOMAN: Yeah, he plays the real bagpipes

KEVIN LI: The first time you saw him, was it really cool?

FW: Yeah, it was very cool!

GERARD WHELAN: I’d say it was probably last September, and the Pink Piper walks down Lonsdale every Friday around 5:00, 5:00, quarter-to-five. And he listened to him every day... every Friday, he's there. Let's go, let's go, let's go, Frankie. Frank’s coming down. And he just got really, really involved, and loved it. And then he got his hockey stick, and he wanted to go out. And then he's had his hockey stick, and he had boots, and he was just like pretending that that was bagpipes. Then it just progressed and progressed. And then everybody kept saying, his two grandparents kept saying, we're going to buy him bagpipes. We’re going to buy him bagpipes. So I said, I'll just get them for him because they're back in Ireland. So after Christmas Day, we bought him the whole set, the whole outfit. And now he's part of the Friday thing. He marches down with Frank.

FW: When Friday happens, Frank comes. Like, and I just really want to play with him. So that's why I look up to him. And I go like this. [imitates bagpipes]. Bagpipes make me really happy! First, first, this is a bigger stick, but this piece goes around you. This piece goes here. Like, them piece goes here. And this piece goes in your mouth, and you blow it. You know, when Frank plays, the pipe goes very loud. You have to wear earplugs so you don’t hurt your ears.

FW: [yelling] One, two, three, four.

[bagpipes play]

CH: Oh, that count in! That's the sound of the Pink Pied Piper playing the bagpipes. Before that you heard four-year-old Frankie Whelan and his father, Gerard. They were speaking with CBC Vancouver reporter Kevin Li.

[music: ambient tune]

Part 3: Halifax Black Jaywalking, Africa Old Burial Site, Seagull Pepperoni Guy

Florida Governor Response

CH: This morning, Florida's Republican Governor Ron DeSantis joined the hosts of "Fox & Friends" on the Fox News Network to talk up the new limits on voting in his state. And, while he was there, he took the unusual step of signing those new limits into law -- on live TV.

SOUNDCLIP

HOST: What's going to be different about Florida's election in 2022? What are you about to sign?

RON DESANTIS: So right now, I have what we think is the strongest election integrity measures in the country. I'm actually going to sign it right here. It's going to take effect.

[clapping and cheering]

RDS: So --

HOST: There you go.

RDS: Bill is signed.

CH: Last week, after that bill passed the legislature, we spoke with Democratic state Representative Angie Nixon, who said the new rules were actually about suppressing voters of colour. And she's not alone in her criticism: the president of the Florida Supervisors of Elections has warned it will make requesting and returning vote-by-mail ballots harder. But that didn't stop the Governor from making it law today -- after Donald Trump's false claims that the 2020 election was rigged. And that televised signing on Fox has drawn criticism and comparisons to Mr. Trump's antics. Local news organizations say they were blocked from the event -- and a columnist with the South Florida Sun-Sentinel tweeted that the Governor's spokesperson called the bill-signing a "Fox exclusive."

[music: glassy guitar riff]

Halifax Black Jaywalking

Guest: Gyasi Symonds

CH: After four-and-a-half years of fighting, a Nova Scotia commission has ruled that what happened to Gyasi Symonds was racist. The Human Rights Commission has awarded him 15-thousand dollars. Police questioned him, and later, went to his workplace to issue a ticket, after he jaywalked with a group of white colleagues in 2017. He was the only one who was stopped. We reached Gyasi Symonds in Halifax.

CO: Gyasi, how does it feel to get this victory before the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission?

GYASI SYMONDS: I have mixed feelings about it. It does send somewhat of a message, but it's still mixed feelings because the outcome still wasn't harsh enough.

CO: I just want to get a sense of what happened back in 2017, on this day when you had this interaction with the police. First of all, where were you... where were you going?

GS: I was going to a coffee shop. It's called the Nook and Cranny. It's on Gottingen St. And, you know, I work across the street from... from the area. And it's a regular thing for staff to walk across the street to get a coffee from this coffee shop.

CO: And, in fact, some other of your colleagues, white colleagues, had already crossed the street at that same time?

GS: Yeah, they crossed the street maybe a few seconds before me, went to the coffee shop. And then I was trailing behind them a bit. And then the cops asked me some questions when... before I entered the coffee shop. They let me know I was jaywalking and, you know, held me up a good, you know, 15 to 30 seconds.

CO: But then you carried on, got your coffee, right?

GS: Then I went in, got my coffee and exited the coffee shop. Went down the street to the corner of Gottingen and Cornwallis, and I crossed the street within the crosswalk line.

CO: So you didn't jaywalk on the way back?

GS: No, no, I didn't jaywalk on the way back. So then I went back into the building. It's called the MacDonald Building. And I work on the third floor. So I went up to my office and went back to work.

CO: How did you come to learn that these police officers were not finished with you?

GS: Because I got a message from reception saying that police were in the lobby of my workplace and they wanted me to come down.

CO: How did they know who you were?

GS: Well, that's… yeah, they described me as a Black man wearing a toque. So that's what they said during the hearing. So that's how they described me to, like we have Commissionaires that work in our lobby that, you know, anybody that comes in, they have to pretty much go through security. That's how they identified me.

CO: What did the police say to you? When you went down to the lobby and met with them, what did they say?

GS: It's hard to say exactly what they said. But, you know, the whole demeanour and vibe of the situation was hostile. They immediately asked me for my I.D. They said that they saw me jaywalking again, something to that effect. I can't say word for word because it's quite a long time ago. But something to that effect. And the whole situation was just humiliating. And I pretty much got humiliated and railroaded in the lobby of the office where I work.

CO: And they slapped you with a big ticket at the same time, right?

GS: They gave me a ticket for... for jaywalking.

CO: Four-hundred-and-ten dollars?

GS: I think that was the amount.

CO: But, I mean, the money is one thing. How did this make you feel when you were accused of this in the lobby of the place where you work?

GS: Well, I was humiliated, and I was terrified. I thought they were going to try to arrest me. And they were completely ready to do so. One had his hand on his gun.

CO: There is a witness to exactly what you're saying because the Commissionaire who met the police first was watching this whole episode. What did she say before the commission? Do you know what... what... how she characterized what she had witnessed?

GS: She described them as… as they were acting like they were out looking for a fugitive -- as if they were on a manhunt. She described them as completely hostile. Like, they... they described me as a Black man in a toque. And they seen me enter the building.

CO: This Commissionaire, what she saw was that the one constable, she thought that he had lost it and… when he was speaking to you. And that she felt quite shaken by what she had watched transpire in the lobby that day.

GS: Yes. Yeah, I was…. I was shaken as well. I feared for my employment as well.

CO: How did you fear for your employment as well?

GS: Because any time a Black man has an interaction with the police, you're looked at as automatically guilty. You know, Black men, in particular, are looked at as hostile automatically. We're looked at as inherently criminal. So I already know what the popular opinion of someone that looks like me is. So... and I was the only Black person in the lobby. And there was two officers, one with his hand on his gun, speaking to me in raised voices, letting me know that I had no option other than to present my I.D., take the ticket or get arrested and possibly assaulted.

CO: And as you point out since this happened, the Halifax police chief has acknowledged and apologized for institutionalized racism in the Halifax Police Department toward the Black community of the city. And that there's also been a report from…. about Halifax and its disproportionate targeting of Black people for street checks by police. So you think there's been progress since the incident that you took to the tribunal?

GS: It's hard to tell if there's progress. But, you know, judging from what... from the decision that I wound up with, I don't think there's been very much progress.

CO: How does it feel now when you go for coffee at your workplace or going out with your colleagues? How has this changed you?

GS: I am extremely wary and paranoid. Any time I walk around Gottingen St., Cornwallis St. So I am very hesitant to go get a coffee or a doughnut or, you know, frequent some of the restaurants on the street that I do like. But a lot of times now I just stay between my office and my vehicle and, you know, a lot of times I'm bound to my... to my office now because it's not worthwhile to get... get in a confrontation with police. So it's definitely impacted my quality of life day-to-day.

CO: Gyasi, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sorry that this had that effect on you. I do appreciate that you speak with us, though. Thank you.

GS: Thank you for being interested.

CO: Bye-bye.

GS: Have a good day.

CH: Gyasi Symonds has been awarded 15-thousand dollars after the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission ruled it was racist for Halifax police to stop him -- and then to question him at his workplace -- after he was seen jay-walking in 2017. We reached him in Halifax.

[music: Spanish guitar]

Africa Old Burial Site

Guest: Nicole Boivin

CH: The child is believed to be a boy, and no older than three years old. And 78,000 years ago, experts say, he was buried -- placed in a pit in the ground, with a support under his head, like a pillow. That's the scene researchers say they've found in a cave near Kenya's south-east coast. And in a study published this week in the journal Nature, they're calling it the "earliest known human burial in Africa." Canadian Nicole Boivin is one of the authors. She's the director of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History. We reached her in Jena, Germany.

CO: Professor Boivin, have you ever seen a burial like this one before?

NICOLE BOIVIN: Absolutely not. This is a one-of-a-kind find. I feel incredibly privileged to have been involved with even one such burial. So absolutely not.

CO: And your sense is that this was not a child who had died there and had been left. This is a child that had been buried?

NB: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, this is, you know, as good as the evidence really gets for a deliberate burial, you know, at this kind of early time period. It has all the... you know, all the signatures of a very deliberate process and a deliberate event where this child was, you know, wrapped up and placed in a very particular position. And there, you know, is even good evidence that there was some sort of cushioning created for the head. So it definitely looks like, you know, a burial that people have undertaken.

CO: How are you so sure that the child was between two and three years old?

NB: Well, that's not my specialism. So that is the consensus of the biological anthropologist who examined the skeletal remains in great detail. And that is, you know, a conclusion derived from looking at the size of the different bones and comparing that to, you know, standard human populations.

CO: But the teeth told you quite a bit, though. Is that the case?

NB: I would say that the teeth are pretty critical and were very well preserved compared to the other elements of the skeleton. And so they had a lot of information to... to provide the biological anthropologist about the date of the burial.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about this pillow that you believe the child's head was resting on?

NB: Yeah, so we don't have much information about what the pillow might have been made of, but it would have been some sort of, you know, simple organic material like leaves, perhaps. So Maria concluded that there was a pillow there based on the fact that it was clear that there had been... the head had been resting on something, and then at some point in time, that something had, you know, disintegrated, had decomposed, and then the head moved into, collapsed into, the empty space that was left behind beneath the sediment after that happened.

CO: So it's also believed that this is the remains of a boy buried in this very loving way. I know it's difficult to project what may have been around the burial, but what's your sense about the kinds of emotions, the kinds of grief that this might speak to?

NB: Yes. Well, I think that anyone who is a parent, you know, can... can only imagine how horrible an event like this must have been. And, you know, it may be a very, very long time ago with very, very distant ancestors. But these are fully modern homosapiens. And so we can imagine that they would have felt very similar feelings to those that we would experience today. And, you know, I can only imagine that that care that they took with burying the child reflects, you know, their deep... the deep impact that this death would have had.

CO: Your team excavated these remains, right? Can you tell us how you managed to do that?

NB: Well, we had been working at this site for a number of... of years. By the time we got to this really early level that the burial was found in, the excavation, you know, revealed what looked like bone, although it was very, very disintegrated. We couldn't be certain. And... and yet, there was a high suspicion that what we were dealing with was bone and that this could be... if it was bone, it was very early and very, very interesting potentially. So the entire block of sediment in which this bone was encased was removed as a hole from the bottom of the trench, and it was taken to the National Museums of Kenya where it was... they started to excavate it very, very gently, very slowly. And that's when a couple of teeth were revealed and, you know, photographs were sent to us. Which we then shared with Maria in Spain, and she confirmed that this was very likely homosapiens, and then, you know, we stopped the excavation, and the decision was made to bring the skeleton, the remains, over to Europe. And they were brought to Jena, and then they were put on another flight with Maria to go to Spain. And then Maria spent a solid more than a year studying these remains. And that's when it became clear that, actually, we were dealing not with just a few bones, a few fossils, but the entire skeleton of this young child.

CO: To take these remains of a child that died 78-thousand years ago, and they're flying all over the place. I mean, what are the ethical considerations that you have when you remove human remains from their resting place?

NB: Yes. Well, there is, of course, you know, the importance of treating these remains respectfully, regardless of whether there's some sort of connection between the person that was buried and the communities that now exist in a place. There's just simply always the need to treat such remains with respect. And that was always, you know, at the foremost of consideration during the course of this investigative process.

CO: But these remains are now in a museum?

NB: They are. They’re back where they belong in Kenya, and they're in the National Museums’, you know, most secure and and and well taken care of, you know, vaults. And that is where, you know, they can be preserved. There was never any question or any sense that anyone wanted them to be returned to the site or anything like that.

CO: We will leave it there. It's a fascinating story, Professor Boivin. And thank you for telling it to us.

NB: It's great to speak to you as well.

CO: Bye-bye.

NB: Bye-bye.

CH: Nicole Boivin is the director of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, and the senior author of a paper on this find published in the journal Nature. We reached her in Jena, Germany.

[music: ambient]

Ideas Promo

CH: Socrates said that an unexamined life is not worth living. So, for centuries, human beings have examined their lives thoroughly, through the lens of philosophy. Well, British philosopher John Gray recognizes that cats aren't burdened by our concerns. So they have no need for philosophy. And yet, in his book "Feline Philosophy: Cats and the Meaning of Life", Mr. Gray argues that our feline friends may have more to teach us about living the good life than most philosophers do.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN GRAY: If you want to know the variety of human goodness, don't read philosophers. Read really good novelists of various kinds in various languages, from various cultures, at various times in history. You'll learn a lot more about the variety and the real natures or qualities of the good life than you would by reading philosophers. Philosophers are nearly always simplifiers. And that maybe that goes with the fact that they've always represented themselves as teachers or been teachers, whereas the best novelists, the best short story writers, the best poets to my mind don't represent themselves as teachers. They pass on something to others. That's why they engage in poetry or novels or short... short story writing. So the best philosophy, I think, is one that takes people back to these other forms of art.

NAHLAH AYED: And perhaps acquire a cat.

JG: Yes. And live with a cat. One thing that cats, I do think, do give to all of those who lived with them for a long time and love them is a sense of the importance of not clinging too anxiously to any particular story that you tell about your own life because cats are happy without telling stories of their own life. And that's a rather profound point.

CH: Philosopher John Gray, speaking with Nahlah Ayed, about what humans can learn from cats about living the good life. That's tonight, on "Ideas", following "As It Happens".

[music: hip-hop]

Seagull Pepperoni Guy

CH: Every night, we try to meet our high standard for interesting, thought-provoking interviews. But sometimes, you remind us that it's hard to beat the best.

SOUNDCLIP

[a phone beep]

DONNA GOLDEN: Hello, my name is Donna Golden. I live outside of Boston, Massachusetts. About a year and a half ago, I started listening to “As It Happens” and I love it. I look forward to it every day. I would love it if you would replay one of my favourite things that I heard on “As It Happens”. And it was about a Canadian man who was banned from a hotel in Victoria, British Columbia, for 17 years because he had the mistake of leaving a pizza with pepperoni on it and the windows open. So I would love you to do replays sometimes.

CH: Thank you, Donna, for reminding us of Nick Burchill. Back in 2018, listeners started to write to us, demanding we call Mr. Burchill. He had the perfect story for "As It Happens". It involved seagulls, pepperoni, and a 17-year-ban from the Empress Hotel in Victoria, B.C. At first, Nick Burchill resisted our overtures. He didn't want to revisit that fateful day. Then, he decided it was time to tell his story. Here is that interview from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Nick, your story has gone around the world and back but you wouldn't do interviews. Why now? Why are you willing to talk to us?

NICK BURCHILL: More peer pressure than anything else. My friends are telling me I'm crazy, you know, if you get a chance to talk to as it happens go ahead and do it. My wife doesn't know I'm talking to you yet. I'll break that to her later.

CO: Oh, does she listen to the show? She might find out.

NB: Oh, she will.

CO: All right let's go to the Empress Hotel in Victoria, B.C. 17 years ago, and a story about what happened to you when you went back to your hotel room where you had left a whole bunch of Brothers pepperoni by an open window. What did you find when you got back?

NB: Not what I expected. I put the pepperoni out just to keep it cool. It was in the fridge of my room and I was gone for number of hours, like probably four or five hours. I opened the door, I was tired, I wasn't really paying too much attention, I just kind of walked into the room and shut the door behind me. It was just sort of an explosion of everything in the room. There were a lot of gulls. They'd come through a very small opening in the window.

CO: How many seagulls are in your room at that point?

NB: My guess would be somewhere between 20 and 40.

CO: And what were they doing?

NB: They'd been eating Brothers TNT pepperoni — I’m specific with the TNT because it's hot — they'd been eating that for about five hours and you can imagine what the room looked like.

CO: No I can't imagine, what did the room look like?

NB: They were carrying on their life processes in there for about five hours. So there were feathers, there was guano, there was everything. The shocking thing for me was the saliva. I didn't know that seagulls drooled. This slime was covering everything and they were whipping it up into the air and they were flying around. It was like a tornado. They were knocking things down — the curtains, the lamps, everything in the room was covered with feathers or one form of excretion or another. It was not pretty and the smell was pretty overwhelming.

CO: Why did you decide you should take this on? Why didn't you immediately call for hotel security or something to deal with it?

NB: To tell you the truth I thought that I could handle it. I opened the remainder of the windows and most of them left immediately. I had problems with a couple.

CO: A few of them were left, and so tell us how you managed to lose your shoe?

NB: Well, first I lost my temper and then I lost my shoe. I threw a shoe at one that was kind of bouncing around the windowsill — both the seagull and the shoe went out the window. What I didn't know they have this great thing in the afternoon called high tea at the Empress, and a lot of people line up to get in there and they pay a lot of money to go to this thing. Apparently there was a line of tourists directly below my front-facing window. Apparently I struck one of them with the shoe.

CO: But wasn't there also a hotel towel you heaved out the window?

NB: That was the last seagull, yes. I was trying to catch it. It had a piece of pepperoni and it was jumping around the room and it was a fairly large room. I went into the washroom, I grabbed a large bath towel and I jumped the seagull and I threw it out the window. The only thing is seagulls can't fly if they're wrapped in a towel. And it also plummeted into this group of tourists. So, I didn't know about the tourists at the time. I'm just trying to you know regain control of the room. So that was the last seagull.

CO: But it wasn't the end of your story because you were there at the hotel to start a new job and you had to get ready to go. How did you finally get this cleaned up, and, I guess, get your shoe back?

NB: Yes, I was trying to make a good impression during all this and I'd only be with my company for three months. And I only had one pair of shoes, I had to go to dinner, they were kind of a light brown leather shoe. I went out, I retrieved my shoe and the towel and I went back to my room. Now the shoe had become dirty, it had fallen into the garden down there so I cleaned it off with some water. But now I had one dark shoe and one light shoe, one of the shoes was wet. In retrospect I should have just got the other shoe wet, but I tried to dry the wet shoe using the little hairdryer. And the phone rang went into the next room to answer the phone, when I was in there the power went out and I realized that the hairdryer had vibrated free of the shoe and fallen into the sink full of water. And I don't know how much of the hotel's power knocked out. But yeah, at that point, sitting there with all that the mess from the seagulls and no power, I realized I needed help.

CO: A cleaning person arrived. How did she respond when she came to the room?

NB: It was just kind of a look of shock really. She was really underprepared for what she saw. I didn't even know what to tell her. And when I came back The Empress had moved me to a different, much smaller room, and I didn't get to go back to that room to see how well she made out.

CO: And you didn't get to go back to the hotel for 17 years because you were banished. You were banned from the hotel all the years.

NB: That's right. We were hosting the event that was taking place at the hotel and I had a bunch of customers there. So I think that's probably why I didn't get turfed immediately. When the event was over my employer did receive a letter requesting that I not stay at the empress ever again.

CO: And your request to return to that hotel, you drafted a letter, you were in your hotel across the street. You sent them a letter. Tell us what you asked the hotel?

NB: I just explained to them I would like to either have a pardon or at least have my 17 years considered as time served. Two days later I was at dinner and I got a phone call, and it was Ryan, the manager that I'd been speaking with at The Empress, and he was laughing and he said that they had reviewed my request and that I was no longer banned from me from The Empress. My ban had been lifted.

CO: So you can now return. Maybe they should give you — maybe that room doesn't even exist anymore. Maybe they had to shut it down Alfred Hitchcock style forever. But would you want to go back and relive any of this experience?

NB: I don't know what reliving it. I'm still kind of dealing with the scars from that first incident. But I was actually just at a restaurant up the street from The Empress when I got the call so I immediately went down and I gave them a peace offering of a pound of Brothers TNT pepperoni.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: All right Nick, it's great to have this story from the horse's mouth as it travels around the world.

NB: Thank you, Carol. Nice talking to you.

CO: You too. Bye-bye.

NB: Bye.

CH: That was Nick Burchill speaking with Carol in 2018 about how he was banned from the Empress Hotel in Victoria, B.C. That one goes out to "As It Happens" listener Donna Golden in Boston, Massachusetts.

May 06, 2021 Episode Transcript

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