Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The AIH Transcript for January 5, 2016

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: Serve and protect. After four deaths from the apparent murder suicide, Canada's military ombudsman calls on Ottawa to keep our soldiers in uniform until they can retire with the help that they need.

JD: Emotional Rescue number one. A Detroit physician said she would not be alive if it wasn't for great medical care, but her brush with death has inspired her to appeal to the people in her profession to exercise a little bit of empathy.

HM: Emotional rescue number two. A Quebec hydro worker saves a mother and her two girls from a burning house just minutes before they would have perished. At the time he says he was thinking of his own kids.

JD: Spread the word. With peanut allergies continuing to kill. We hear from a Canadian doctor who is part of a call for more early exposure to the peanut butter we have been so terrified of.

HM: On the mercy of the law man. He helped put Leonard Pelletier behind bars for killing two FBI agents. But now the American prosecutors says that after 40 years it's time for his president to grant clemency.

JD: And the Cock a doodle eww. A Russian farm artist knows it's the year of the rooster, so he has erected a giant statue of a cockerel that he has sculpted from cow poop. As It Happens the Thursday edition, radio that does love to raise a stink.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Military ombudsman, empathy doctor, house fire rescue

Military ombudsman

Guest: Gary Walbourne

JD: It's a tragedy that may have been prevented. Last night, we told you about the family in rural Nova Scotia who were found dead in their home. All four appeared to have died at the hands of the father, Lionel Desmond. He was a veteran of Canada's Afghan mission and one of his relatives told us that he had been suffering from PTSD. Elaine Walcott wondered if the family may still be alive, if Mr. Desmond had been given more help. He went to a hospital last week seeking assistance — he was turned away. Ms. Walcott is not the only one asking that question. Gary Walbourne is Canada's military ombudsman. We reached him in Ottawa.

HM: Mr. Walbourne, four people are dead, a veteran, his wife, his daughter, his mother. What was your gut reaction when you learned the circumstances of those deaths?

GARY WALBOURNE: Well, I'm sure Helen; it is like everyone else's. This is an absolute tragedy devastating. You know and this is very very hard way to start off 2017. Our condolences and thoughts are with the family and friends, but again an absolute tragedy.

HM: Last night, on this program a relative of Lionel Desmond told us that he went to a local hospital trying to get help for his PTSD and they didn't have a bed for him. Is that unusual in your experience?

GW: Well that's provincial health care, Helen. A little bit outside my purview of authority. But if I could just back up for a second last September, we put a report to the department. We made one recommendation in the report and it was that no Canadian Armed Forces member be released until all benefits and services from all sources were put in place. And by that I mean you know have your pension benefits in place, have your continuity of health care in place. And I think if we can get to that type of a delivery model I think we could change this conversation fundamentally going forward because the member would have the medical care they need over a continuing period of time. There wouldn't be a break in any service; there wouldn't be any financial impact from leaving the military. So all these things right now that are causing problems if we could go to that one recommendation I think we could avoid much of the conversation we're having.

HM: As a matter of fact, Mr. Desmond did receive treatment for his PTSD we are told before he left the military back in 2015. So is this what happens once you're out. You can't necessarily get the same kind of support when you're a veteran as when you're a member?

GW: Well, you should be able to get the support, but it goes back to are you a client of Veterans Affairs Canada? Have you fill out the applications? you know or have you previously noted your malady? Is it been recorded? I mean it gets very complex and very convoluted and there's a bureaucracy wrapped around it that is sometimes mind boggling. But you know, he may have been receiving some support, but early evidence says that he's been reaching out for support for a while. Who’s he been reaching out to? Who’s he been talking to? But if we go back to the recommendation that we made; in my world if we hold the member to ensure the continuity of care is in place it would fundamentally change where we are today.

HM: The person we spoke to last night — the relative — Reverend Walcott. She said that the Desmond family and Mr. Desmond had been reaching out for a long time and that they felt abandoned — as she felt — they were abandoned by Veterans Affairs?

GW: You know there is a Veterans Affairs ombudsman Mr. Guy Parent, and I’m not knowing the details of the case. Again we're going in very early stages on that investigation that's going on with the Desmond family. I would suggest maybe it might be a good question for Veterans Affairs.

HM: All right so what more do you think there needs to be done to better support veterans in this country?

GW: Well, I'd like to go back one time and just reiterate. If we would hold the member until all benefits and services from all sources were in place prior to release I think we can fundamentally change the service delivery model we have today. And I think we can get ourselves hopefully out of having conversations along these lines.

HW: Yeah, why is that taking so long?

GW: I wish I had an answer to that question because I've been in and around this world now for about seven years and we started talking about it when I walked through the door and we're still talking about it today.

HM: So do you think the government could have made those changes by now?

GW: Well, I think there are within the authority of the minister to make that change to hold the member until everything is in place. We don't need any new legislation for that. I just think it's a matter of the decision of someone implementing the decision.

HM: And you suggest they've researched it but haven't acted on it?

GW: I know my office has researched it and the veteran’s ombudsman's office has researched it. Looking at it from every possible angle we could think about to come up with some recommendations for the department to move forward.

HM: The Defense Department has said they plan to announce some changes with the new defense policy coming in the spring. Is that satisfactory to you?

GW: No. You know I don't know why we're waiting for defense policy review we know what the situation is on the ground today. I don't think I need to wait for some white paper or strategic document to be released. I think these are immediate actions we could take today that would have a fundamental positive impact to our transitioning members.

HM: Beyond that the government — the Defense Department — says that they have increased the supports recently for veterans in this country. But it does appear that many people are falling through the cracks. What are your thoughts on that?

GW: Well, what have we increased you know? We've reopened offices that we've closed from Veterans Affairs perspective. What else have we increased? We're hiring some more frontline staff. But what we haven't changed at all is we haven't changed a bureaucratic application process. So the fundamental things that we need to be changing, I don't think we've done a lot of work on them.

HM: You know we had Romeo Dallaire on this show not that long ago and he was pleading for more support for former soldiers like him who suffer from PTSD. It's hard to think when you got such a high profile spokesperson talking about this that the call hasn't been heard. You have any sense why?

GW: I have no sense why. I mean it's not only Mr. Dallaire, there have been many politicians, senators, the public forces members, chiefs and everybody I know has been talking about this. So this is nothing new or a great revelation to anybody, but it's inaction.

HM: In practical terms, should your recommendations have been enacted by now what would someone like Mr. Desmond have available to them that that he did not have?

GW: Well, he would have had you know and again we're speculating we don't know the details of that case, but let's just take any member that's transitioning out what they will have is the health care they're currently receiving to help deal with the malady continues once they've been released. We don't release a member until they have the financial benefits they need in place for themselves and their families. We've talked about it it's you know God bless Mr. Dallaire, he's been a great great proponent this. But it just seems to fall on deaf ears some don't.

HM: All right, Mr. Walbourne, thank you very much for talking to us.

GW: You're welcome, thank you.

HM: All right, bye bye.

JD: Gary Wellborn is the Canadian Forces ombudsman. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Somber]

Senate cyber threat

JD: Did Russia try to interfere in the U.S. election to cyber-attacks? Donald Trump says we don't know that. Is North Korea developing a nuclear weapon capable of hitting the U.S.? Donald Trump tweets it won't happen — that's a few days ago. Wherever it is that the President-elect is getting his information, it does not seem to be from the U.S. government's intelligence agencies. Point of fact Mr. Trump's tweets suggest that he puts more stock in Vladimir Putin and Julian Assange than he does in American intel. Well today, in Washington a U.S. Senate Committee held a hearing on cyber threats facing the USA. Here is Republican Senator Lindsey Graham speaking with the National Intelligence Director James Clapper at that hearing.

SOUNDCLIP

LINDSEY GRAHM: So I want to let the President-elect know that it’s OK to challenge the intel. You're absolutely right to want to do so. But what I don't want you to do is undermine those who are serving our nation in this arena until you're absolutely sure they need to be undermined. And I think they need to be uplifted not undermined. North Korea let me give an example of real world stuff that he's going to have to deal with Trump. Do you believe that North Korea is trying to develop an ICBM to hit the United States or that could be used to hit the United States?

James Clapper: There could be yes.

LG: do you agree with that Admiral Rogers?

MICHAEL ROGERS Yes.

LG: So when the North Korean leader says that they're close to getting ICBM he's probably in the realm of truth?

JC: He is certainly working aggressively to do that.

LG: And if the president United States says it won't happen he's going to have to come to ya’ll to figure out how far along they are because you would be his source for how far along they are, is that right?

JC: I'd hope would be the source.

LG: I hope he would talk to you too. And here's what I hope he realizes. That if he has to take action against North Korea — which he may have to do — I intend to support him. But he needs to explain to the American people why. And one of the explanations he'll give is based on what I was told by the people who are in the fight. And let me tell you this: you don't wear uniforms, but you're in the fight and we're in a fight for our lives. I just got back from the Baltics, Ukraine and Georgia. If you think it's bad here you're to go there. So ladies and gentlemen it is time now not to throw pebbles but throw rocks. I wish we were not here. If it were up to me we would all live in peace. But Putin is up to no good and he better be stopped. Mr. President-elect when you listen to these people you can be skeptical, but understand they're the best among us and they're trying to protect us.

JD: That was Republican Senator Lindsey Graham speaking today at the hearing of the U.S. Armed Services Committee on cyber-attacks against the U.S.

[Music: String]

Empathy doctor

Guest: Rana Awdish

JD: In 2008, Dr. Rana Awdish went from tending to patients, to being a patient herself. She was seven months pregnant when a tumor on her liver ruptured. She nearly bled to death inside the hospital where she worked. That experience as a patient along with her long recovery has led Dr. Awdish to question some of her assumptions about being a physician. In the latest issue of The New England Journal of Medicine, Dr. Awdish calls for a change in the relationship between doctors and patients. We reached Dr. Rana Awdish in Detroit.

HM: Dr. Awdish, let's start with what happened to you back in 2008. Just how close did you come to dying?

RANA AWDISH: As close as I could have come and still be here to talk to you today. I really had multisystem organ failure with kidneys, liver, lungs and blood all shutting down and my mortality was close to 100 per cent.

HM: And this was something that came on very suddenly ?

RA: Very suddenly ,yeah. I had been out to dinner and this crushing pain came on and that was actually the moment that the tumor in my liver ruptured. We didn't know that at the time. But within two hours my blood loss would empty my heart in veins and arteries entirely and I would be in in full minute shock.

HM: What measures had to be taken to save you?

RA: I had emergency surgery that night I was seven months pregnant. So the baby was evacuated already dead. The surgeons and anesthesiologists that were involved in my care had to transfuse me almost 40 pounds of blood products if you think about it that way; I left the operating room 40 pounds heavier than I'd gone in. So really I was dependent on a lot of people who helped me get through that.

HM: an event that momentous would be life changing for anyone. But did you at any point think that this was going to teach you something about being a doctor?

RRA: You know right from the beginning I saw how my perspective as a physician was truly oriented to the disease. It had been oriented to the disease rather than to that patient carrying the disease. And that was something I saw reflected back to me in the physicians who were caring for me, they were very adept at handling the disease. But my more emotional needs — my need to be seen as a as a person. My worries were a little bit more clumsily dealt with than I saw myself in those failures. That medicine is really it's targeted towards training people to deal with disease and we don't do as good of a job training or physicians to tend to the complex emotions that accompany illness.

HM: Can you give us some specific examples where doctors spoke with you or treated you in a way that they could have done much better?

RA: Yeah there were a few instances one that really stuck out to me was a few mornings after that event where I nearly died. I overheard myself being presented by the rounding team in the hallway. The resident was discussing the events overnight and what had happened. And I was listening with curiosity when I heard him say she's been trying to die on us. And I thought ugh I'm not trying to die am actually trying very hard not to die. And I was angered hearing that, but then I recognized myself in that statement. I recalled saying similar things around patients — to patients — I remember telling a patient you know are you really worried me last night. I was scared I was going to lose you. As though my feeling were what mattered.

HM: And what message does that send to the patient then? As someone who's been on that side of it?

RA: the patient I think can feel very blamed in those situations. So if I tell someone you scared me that's an admonishment that that's not what the patient needs. We need to align and support the patient through their illness.

HM: Well, how are the lessons then of your own health crisis, treatment and emergency. Different from the lessons you learned as you were being trained as a physician?

RA: Sadly physicians, at least at the time that I graduated from medical school, were not trained in difficult conversations. In empathy, in the humanity and resilience needed to be a physician. You know medicine has a tremendous amount of technical knowledge that has to be imparted. And of course, that should be the focus. But when one considers what we're ultimately tasked with doing there's a deficiency there and a blind spot I think in education. At best what I hoped for when I was a resident was to see someone had a really quality conversation with someone who was ill so that I could model that you know we call that good bedside manner and we would see it and recognize it. But I couldn't break it down into its attendant parts. I didn't know what skills that physician was demonstrating. I just knew that it seemed to work. And what I think we have to do is to say this is a roadmap for these conversations. These are the pieces of it that if you follow you'll see the signposts along the way you'll recognize how to align with a patient's values and then help them map a plan that actually does value what they value not what your agenda is. And I just don't think we had a good sense of how to do that.

HM: Are you a better doctor now after your near-death experience?

RA: I feel I have a better understanding of what I as a patient needed. I'm more attuned to the emotional cues in the room. I hope that I'm a better doctor that what I went through has helped me to understand how our patients suffer and how I can help them come through that.

Dr. Awdish, It's a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you very much.

RA: Thank you.

JD: We reached Dr. Rana Awdish in Detroit, Michigan. And you can read about her article or you can read her article, in fact, on our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folk]

Jumping cow

JD: Hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle the cow jumped over whatever Hannah Simpson pleases. Last night we spoke with Ms. Simposn, A teenager from New Zealand. And she told us how she had trained her cow Lilac to trot to gallop and indeed jump when that interview jogged another listener's memory. Helen McMenamin wrote to us asking quote, “Wasn't it on AIH that I heard the famous very British dog trainer telling us all about the cow she rode that jumps at horse shows. Well sure enough we went grazing through the archives and we did pluck this here interview from the pastor from 1983. Here is dog trainer Barbara Woodhouse on the CBC radio program The Entertainers.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBRA WOODHOUSE: When I was a little girl, we were very poor after my father died. We moved to Oxford had no money at all, but we did have two steers in our orchard. I couldn't afford a pony, so I saddled this steer up and I jumped it. They jump magnificently. And I said to my mother can't I go hunting on this. And she said certainly not, but I used to take it out on the roads and have lovely rides on it and jump. And later on, I settled one of my cows up when we lived in Aylesbury, England and I rode to White City like your coliseum you know where all the big pet Smythe's and big jumpers were jumping and I said I'd like to challenge as a joke in your arena. I'd like to challenge Pat Smythe to jump my cow against a horse. They wouldn't hear of it. They thought I was mad.

JD: From 1983. Late dog trainer and cow jumper Barbara Woodhouse. Thanks everyone who wrote in. And if you did miss our interview with current cow-jumper Hannah Simpson, find it on our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folk]

House fire rescue

Guest: Mario Menard

JD: Two Hydro-Quebec workers were clearing tree branches off power lines in the Montreal suburb of Hudson yesterday, nearby a mom and two daughters aged 8 and 10 years old were trapped in their burning home. Those hydro workers turned out to be in the right place at the exact right time. We reached one of them Mario Menard, on the road near Montreal.

HM: Mr. Menard, take us back to what happened yesterday as you were working and you suddenly realized something was wrong?

MARIO MENARD: When I when I was coming back from my patrol of the line I saw that big flame and I said there's a big fire going on. And we thought the fireman was over there, but nobody was over there. We were we were getting closer because she was getting bigger and bigger.

HM: You went towards the flames?

MM: Yeah, I was right in the truck I had my window open and the closer we were getting to the house, I start to hear somebody yelling help us help us. And they were they were yelling a lot of things that they want to be safe. We're going to die and everything like that. And I told my partner there's somebody caught over there in the fire. I parked the truck beside the road and we start to run to the house and we saw the people that are caught on the second floor.

HM: At this point how high were the flames?

MM: Very high, it was incredible. Everything was red and the people where they were I think it was the only part not touched by the flame. It was a matter of seconds that they will be touched by the flames.

HM: What happened next?

MM: We saw the little girl and then the mother. I told her jump, we are going to catch you and they didn't want to jump on you know because it was very high, but had no choice because the fire was coming and it was very hot. You know. So I told them it was a matter of seconds. One of the little girl jump my buddy, my partner, Guy, caught one after the other one Jump. I catch the other one. And after he brought the two little girls in the truck and me I stayed there to catch the mother. She jumped, but you know I tried to catch her. I caught her, but the she hurt her back very bad on the on the ground you know. But after that I tried to move her and she was hurt seriously and she wasn’t able to stand up. So a neighbor came and he helped me and we slide her in the snow very far from the house. And after that everything went up like you know.

HM: what was going through your mind as all this was happening?

MM: Oh yes. Everything was going on our mind me and my partner. But you know when you got to the adrenaline is very high the only thing you want it's to save people and get out of bed quickly as you can.

HM: Were you scared?

MM: I for sure was scared. When I saw my partner he was trying to catch the little girl and the flame was behind him you know not very far from him. So we could be caught by the flame too if we spend too much time over there. So we tried to do that very rapidly. Get it over there quick as we can.

HM: How long before the fire department and the ambulance arrived?

MM: It was very fast, but I spoke with the captain and he told me that when they had the call it took them just six minutes to get over. That house was all wood instead of brick or anything like that. So maybe that's why the fire was very high like that you know.

HM: Now I understand while you were there other family members arrived?

MM: yeah, the father arrived after the ambulance and firemen were there, and he was looking for his wife and the little girls too. After he saw me and shake my hand and my partner too he was very emotional. You know a big emotional stress you know. He took my hand and said we're going to see you later, but you know we had a big shock. He saw the house all down and the family was there.

HM: Was that an emotional time for you too?

MM: big emotional you think or your family and you think something like that happen that somebody would do the same thing for you. Because I've got four kids they're older they're: 17, 19, 21 and 23. But you never know, they can be caught in the fire. You hope that something like that happened somebody have time to do the same thing they like that you know.

HM: How are the family members doing now?

MM: I just spoke with the father and the first question I asked him is how’s his wife doing you know? He said he told me that she was doing well. She got a brace for her back. You know she had something broken on her back, but they say that she's going to be able to walk it is just going to take time. That's what he told me. But she's going to be OK.

HM: And the girls?

MM: The girls were OK yesterday and they're still OK, so everybody is OK.

HM: You're now being called a hero. What do you think?

MM: I know that a lot of people call us heroes, but like I like I said we're there on the right time on the right place and the right hour. Just maybe a few minutes before or a few minutes after we would be there and they will pass away, so we were there at the right time.

HM: Thank you so much for talking to us. And you know all the best to you.

MM: You too. Thank you.

HM: All right, Bye bye.

MM: Bye.

JD: Mario Menard is one of two Hydro-Quebec workers who rescued a mother and two children from a house fire yesterday. Mr. Menard was just outside Montreal when we reached him.

Part 2: Peanut recommendations, Peltier release

Peanut recommendations

Guest: Edmond Chan

JD: The peanut has, over the years, become a beleaguered Legume has it not? But now a group of pediatricians has published a surprising new directive. They want parents to embrace the peanut by feeding it to their infants early and often. And they say this is especially important if the child is at higher risk of developing a peanut allergy. The recommendations were made today by a U.S. government panel and it marks a giant shift in thinking about allergies. Dr. Edmond Chan is the panel's only Canadian member. He has a pediatric allergist in Vancouver and that is indeed where we reached him.

HM: Dr. Chan, before this new recommendation came along, what was the conventional wisdom around when parents should feed their kids peanut products?

EDMOND CHAN: So in the year 2000 the American Academy of Pediatrics recommended that infants wait until they're three years of age before being given peanut products. That has turned out to be the wrong advice because during that time we've encountered quite an increase in peanut allergy; perhaps a doubling or tripling over the past couple of decades. And so the new recommendations really go 180 degrees opposite to that.

HM: Right, they're vastly different. What is the new suggestion?

EC: Yeah, so the new recommendation is to introduce peanut containing food in non-choking form at around 6 months of age. And thereafter to give it very regularly — several times a week or at least weekly and do that for a duration of several years. The majority of infants don't require testing beforehand. And so we're talking like over 95 per cent of infants are in categories which would allow them to be fed the peanut containing food for the first time at home. But if a parent is very hesitant to do that there are various details in the guidelines about how a physician could get that underway.

HM: What kind of indicators are there that a child might be someone who shouldn't take the peanut product early? What kind of symptoms might they show?

EC: Yes, so the guidelines describe that the infant with severe eczema or egg allergy in the infant already then to not introduce peanut at home and instead seek peanut introduction in a physician's office.

HM: If a child eats a peanut butter product early, how much does that apparently decrease their chance of developing an allergy?

EC: So in that 2015 study, the risk was reduced over 80 per cent with the early introduction group in comparison to the group that was not introduced. For example, there were various subgroups to be analyzed, but one subgroup went from about a 14 per cent risk down to about 1 per cent risk, so really dramatic decrease.

HM: Yeah that's pretty astonishing. I mean that sounds like the kind of thing that shakes up the medical community’s thinking about something like this?

EC: Exactly and that's why this is unprecedented to have a guideline dedicated to one very narrow specific allergy issue which is peanut allergy. It's not even a guideline on food allergy in general it's just specifically on peanut allergy. And so you know I haven't witnessed anything in my field that is as dramatic paradigm shift as this in you know over 15 years of being involved in this field.

HM: We are hearing already from our listeners on this story one user says she's skeptical about the recommendation. Sue writes, “Not sure about this one. That's how we found out one of our kids was allergic around the age of one. She had a bite of her sister's peanut butter toast.” What do you think?

EC: Well the difference in that scenario not knowing further details, is that when you're of age is beyond the window of opportunity. These guidelines state that the peanuts should be introduced right at around six months of age. And if you wait until one year of age it's just too late. And by then you may as well not do this because the chance of they're already having peanut allergy developed is much higher at 12 months.

HM: I'm wondering how much the prevalence of peanut allergy depends on where people live? You looked at this study from about a decade ago that compared the rates in Israel which I gather are quite low to those of children in Britain. What was it a find? What was the reasoning there?

EC: Yeah, that was an observational study that was done in the mid-2000’s and it was fascinating because it found that there was essentially zero — almost zero — peanut allergy in Israel, but the approximate two per cent or so peanut allergy in the UK that we often describe in young children. And when they look at the various factors responsible what came through was that in Israel, peanut was introduced very early sort of around six months of age and frequently. And that's been introduced for decades in the form of what's called Bamba which is a Peanut puffed corn snack. In contrast in the UK for that same age group there was zero peanut introduced. So although it wasn't as reliable or rigorous the study design as that prospective study I describe — that clinical trial — this was really quite interesting evidence that there was a difference.

HM: Is there any evidence related to in-utero exposure? I'm just thinking I’ve heard over the years some suggestions about whether pregnant moms should eat peanut products or not?

EC: There's some evidence, but the problem is that it's conflicting evidence. So some of the studies suggest that it's harmful to eat peanuts while pregnant or breastfeeding well other studies suggest that it's beneficial. So at this point the jury's out and we don't want to sway parents either way when they're pregnant or breastfeeding. They should continue to do what they are comfortable doing, so if they enjoy eating peanuts continue to do so if they don't enjoy eating peanuts don't go out of their way to eat peanuts. It seems like much more of the difference seems to be what you feed the infant when they start solids. But of course this is an evolving story and there may be new developments in the next several years.

HM: Do you foresee a day where we might be able to pack a peanut butter sandwich and send it off to school with our kids?

EC: I do. But again I'm cautiously optimistic and I feel that it'll take many years. You know some of my colleagues and I have discussed maybe a decade or more, but really no one has a crystal ball. It really depends on so many different factors. Dr. Chan, thank you for talking to us. It's really interesting.

EC: You're welcome.

HM: Bye bye.

EC: Bye bye.

JD: Dr. Edmond Chan is the head of Allergy and Immunology at the University of British Columbia's Department of Pediatrics. And we reached Dr. Chan in Vancouver.

[Music: Rock]

Afghan woman pilot

Guest: Niloofar Rahmani

JD: At just 21-years-old Niloofar Rahmani became Afghanistan's first female Air Force pilot. It was in 2012 and in the years since she has received threats from the Taliban and even from distant members of her own family. A year and a half ago, Ms. Rahmani spoke to As It Happens from Kabul about the danger she and her immediate family faced. At that time, she was about to leave Afghanistan for a training program in the United States. That program ended last month, but rather than return to Afghanistan. Ms Rahmani has revealed that she is seeking asylum in the U.S. From our archives here as part of Niloofar Rahmani’s conversation with guest host, Peter Armstrong from August of 2015.

SOUNDCLIP

NILOOFAR RAHMANI: in our country. Keep in mind the female here they do not have any life to do. They have to be in the house, they have to do the housework and nothing else. And I wanted to really change in this country. Maybe if I can’t change like all the people in the country maybe some people will change.

PETER ARMSTRONG: You know you went on to break down all those barriers; you became a pilot. You became a successful pilot. Did you ever imagine then that it would be as difficult as it is now?

NR: Actually, I can say no. Because when I started if I knew it was going to be that dangerous for me and my family I would never accept to do it. I knew that there was going to be some risk, but not as worse as it is right now.

RA: How has the Afghan Air Force responded to the way you've been treated?

NR: Unfortunately they just told me this was your decision. We never forced you to come. This was a very painful thing. When I heard I say if I had their support maybe I would inspire all these people because I had the support behind me.

PA: And now you say you're leaving. What will you and your family do now?

NR: Actually right now I'm still in the Air Force. I didn't quit yet, but they have decided to send me for the C-130 training in the U.S. Maybe for the one half years when I'm gone the situation here will get easier for my family. They can go on because they know and the people know I'm here and they're trying to find a way maybe they will go find a place to hide and to keep themselves safe.

PA: You know part of the reason that you became a pilot in the first place was to inspire other young Afghan women to serve as an example and a symbol. What would you say to those women today?

NR: I want to tell them what they should come and still do it, but as they have their family's support. If they don’t have that support I'm sure the government will respond the way that they did to me. They need to be powerful, they should all stick together because by one person they have to follow my way, they have to encourage other people. Maybe they can be a good example for the country. I just hope they will have an easy life not the way that I am dealing with this right now.

JD: from our archives, that was Afghanistan's first female Air Force pilot Niloofar Rahmani speaking to As It Happens guest host, Peter Armstrong in August of 2015.

[Music: strings]

Peltier release

Guest: James Reynolds

JD: Leonard Peltier is 71-years-old, and he has spent the last 40 of those years, in prison after being convicted of murdering two FBI agents near Wounded Knee, South Dakota. Many facts in this case are disputed and people of the ilk of Nelson Mandela and Robert Redford have called for Mr. Peltier’s release. Now another voice has joined that call James Reynolds. Mr. Reynolds is the former senior U.S. attorney who oversaw part of Mr. Peltier's prosecution. He has written a letter to President Barack Obama asking for clemency for Mr. Peltier. We reached James Reynolds in Naples, Florida.

HM: Mr. Reynolds, why after all of these years do you think this is the right time to ask for clemency for Leonard Peltier?

JAMES REYNOLDS: I think the answer is because as all these years. I think that you know the justice system has worked and now it’s time for clemency.

HM: So he's been in prison now for 40 years. It's that you feel he's served his time?

JR: Well, not that he served his time, but just that whatever the needs were for the government have been met. I guess the ultimate would be to see him die in prison, but I don't think that is necessary. They have justice done as I said to the president. I said considering all this and all the facts, clemency would be in order and in the nature of justice.

HM: So you wrote this this request to the President. What was the moment you decided you were going to do this?

JR: Well I saw his attorney on Democracy Now! And he made a pitch and offered the fact to get clemency and what I knew of a case and the age of it and all the rest of it. I thought I was in a position to make some contributions so why not?

HM: Can you remind us a bit about the case itself. Leonard Peltier was convicted of killing two FBI agents. What was the prosecution's case at the time?

JR: Well, they basically were trying to prove it — at first trying to prove — that he was the one who actually pulled the trigger and killed the FBI agents. But I think ultimately the government admitted that he was just an accessory, an aider and he was present when the agents were killed. The doctrine was that you're there and you're involved in it and you are as guilty as the person who actually committed it. That's kind of the way the case evolved at this point. A moving target so to speak.

HM: What was your role in this case?

JR: Well, I was appointed as the U.S. attorney when they changed the administrations from Reagan to Carter. The prior U.S. attorney who had been appointed was one who stayed it on and I kept him on to handle the case and see. He had been a former attorney general and he had been a U.S. attorney he knew how to do that. He had done the actual trial. So I thought there was no need for me to supervise the appeal. I made sure that a conviction stood up and the sentence was upheld. So what I did was I was basically supervisor of the appeal. I’ve been involved in a lot of cases along the way. You know nothing is ever perfect and nothing is ever clean there's always something that doesn't quite add up, but it does make you a question and so forth. And this case is no different than that. The only thing was that it was very high profile.

HM: Mr. Peltier's attorneys say federal agents made false statements that they coerced witness statements, they withheld ballistics reports. Can you tell us how you think the case itself was handled? Do you think it was a fair trial?

JR: You know it's like you know like any other criminal case, I don't think it was unusual. It was apparently a of trial under the circumstances. But you know there were all kinds of circumstances. And you had to take them all into consideration and there were some pluses and minuses, but in the end he was convicted by a jury of his peers.

HM: Do you believe today that Mr. Peltier was responsible for executing those FBI agents?

JR: I have no idea. It was not part of my decision to join in the clemency request as to whether or not he did it or he didn't do it. I think at this point it's 40 years later and it's almost irrelevant at this point.

HM: We're told that Mr. Peltier is reportedly in quite poor health.

JR: Is that understood that was the case. That was part of it was that it was going to get more and more expensive probably going down the line in keeping his room and board and medical care and that was also in consideration. I basically said that under all circumstances it is in the interest of the people that he is granted clemency at this point. There's just too many factors you know to make all of the cases and discard all of these facts.

HM: This case has been such a high profile one as you yourself pointed out given that and the fact that it comes up in the news from time to time how much have you reflected on it over the years?

JR: Well, you know I've looked at it and you know I don't have many cases that leaders of foreign countries are talking to each other about. So you know in that sense it is probably one of the most high profile ones. I’ve looked at it and as a prosecutor I’ll just say that the prosecution is that good things and bad things and this one was no different.

HM: If you could speak directly to Leonard Peltier, what would you say to him?

JR: Good luck.

HM: Mr. Reynolds, thank you for speaking with us.

JR: you betcha.

HM: Take care. Bye bye.

JD: James Reynolds is a former senior U.S. attorney. We reached him in Naples, Florida. And if you'd like to read his letter to President Obama asking for clemency from Leonard Peltier, go to our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Electronic]

Vesna Vulovic

Guest: Vesna Vulovic

JD: Death finally caught up with Vesna Vulovic, four and a half decades after a midair explosion destroyed the plane she was on and sent her plummeting to the earth. In January of 1972. Ms. Vulovic was working as a flight attendant for Yugoslav Airlines. Her DC-9 and taken off from Copenhagen on its way to Belgrade. Then high above Czechoslovakia a bomb went off. Yugoslav media said at the time the plane was 10 kilometers above the earth. A more recent investigation called that height into question, but was never conclusive. Regardless, Ms. Volovic managed to survive; the 27 others onboard all died. Vesna Vulovic though, was found dead in her apartment late last month. She was 66-years-old in May of 2008, As It Happens spoke with her as she campaigned against the nationalists in Serbia's parliamentary elections. So from our archives here is Vesna Vulovic telling Carol about that incredible fall.

SOUNDCLIP

VESNA VULOVIC: you see doctors — after the operation of my backbone — they told to my mother and father what a fighter is your daughter. During the operation she woke up, although, we gave her some strong sedatives. They said she will be completely recovered.

CO: Do you remember anything about that fall?

VV: No nothing, nothing. I'm telling only what I’ve from my parents and from the witnesses. I can only tell that.

CO: And what did they tell you happened?

VV: They told me that my plane exploded on the height of 10,000 meters. They said it was a bomb.

CO: Do you have any idea how you survived that crash?

VV: I really don't know how I survived.

JD: Unbelievable that was Vesna Voulovic speaking to Carol from Belgrade in 2008. You can find more on her story on our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Poo sculpture

JD: Dateline Walba Russia.

[Music: Dateline theme]

JD: Walba this tiny community in Russia's north has something to crow about this year. A nearly four metre high statue of a giant rooster made of poo. The giant manure a rooster is the work of farmer, school caretaker and dung artist Mikhail Bopposov. Mr. Bopposov has been working in dung since 2008 when he mucked together a putrid camouflage Brown tank. It was during the following year that Mr. Bopposov found his muse. And from then on the Chinese zodiac would drive his order. In 2009 Mr. Bopposov unveiled a huge stinky rat. And then there were, of course, many dragons and monkeys and huge coiling snakes and people love them. They come from sort of far and maybe not very wide to pose for photos with the miniature masterpieces. So you can imagine the concern when late last year Mr. Bopposov suffered an injury. It was his leg, and try as he might the artist could not carry his steaming clay. But the townsfolk rallied and Mr. Bopposov 's brothers dumped their own responsibilities to help out. And by the New Year, Mr. Bopposov was all ready to ring in the year of the rooster in high and stinky style. And everyone seems to agree. His cockerel is a thing of cow dropping beauty.

Part 3: As It Happened: The Finnish Episode

Intro

JD: During this holiday season we are bringing you some of the very best stories that we have ever ever aired on this program. We're going to be digging into the As It Happens archives to bring you some blasts from our past through encore presentations of As It Happened: The Archive Edition. And now here is tonight's encore presentation of As It Happened.

[Music: Rock]

JD: I'm Jeff Douglas and this is As It Happened: The Archive Edition, the program that brings you the very best from the As It Happens archives this week is the final week for the series for this year. So naturally it's “The Finnish Episode”. We're going to interview the head of the International Sauna Society about why the steam rooms are so important to the Finns.

SOUNDCLIP

GUEST: All the hard problems they are solved in the sauna.

JD: We will speak with the British ski jumper Eddie the Eagle a about where he stayed while training in Finland.

SOUNDCLIP

EDDIE Edwards: I had nowhere to stay there and they arranged for me to sleep in this mental hospital for about a month and a half.

JD: And we will hear loud and clear from the Finnish men's shouting choir who shout songs at you in the unlikeliest of places.

SOUNDCLIP

GUEST: We do lots of attacks towards innocent people.

JD: As It Happens: The Archive Edition, radio that's a scream from start to finish.

[Music: Rock]

Screaming men

Guest:

JD: It may not be over till the fat lady sings, but it is definitely all Finnish when the men's choir shouts. Since 1987, a rather unusual choral group has been raising an ungodly ruckus at its performances. The Finnish Men's Shouting Choir performs with the precision of a regular chorus, but rather than producing melodious harmonies this choir bellows. They shout songs rather than sing them. In 2004 a documentary was released about the Finnish Men's Shouting Choir. The doc is called “Screaming Men’ Petri Sirvio is the conductor of the choir. He spoke with former As It Happens host Mary Lou Finlay in February of 2004.

MARY LOU FINLAY: How did this silly idea get started Mr. Sirvio?

PETRI SIRVIO: I really don't know. I raced in my bass and suddenly this other little guy started to scream.

MLF: Somebody started to scream?

PS: Everybody started to scream.

MLD: Everybody started to scream. And from this flowed the idea of a choir?

PS: From the beginning the idea was the same, so not to sing a note, but to scream and shout.

MLF: Is that because you can't sing?

PS: Some of us can sing, but I think that was not the option to shout instead of singing. But rather I'd say it was to shout instead of being quiet.

MLF: And to see how much people would put up with?

PS: [Sound: Laughing] not really. We do this for our own fun.

MLF: OK. So what did you start with singing with?

PS: The first number was the text of our national anthem.

MLF: Does the Finnish national anthem lend itself to shouting?

PS: Yeah it was very good text for the beginning. But because it was our first number the quality of the composition was not that good. We don't perform it in any longer.

MLF: Oh, what do you do now?

PS: Very many different kind of takes from lullabies to records from international laws and treaties.

MLF: [Sound: Laughing] lullabies?

PS: Of course, they have a wonderful texture, at least Scandinavian lullabies.

MLF: Have you got a bunch of people there now?

PS: Yes that's correct. But they are very quiet right now because I don't have wave my baton and they are quite disciplined people.

MLF: If you wave your baton will they sing a lullaby… shout a lullaby to us now?

PS: Would you like to hear a lullaby?

MLF: Yes.

PS: OK. This is a Danish lullaby. This was not the piece I meant to let them scream to you, but let's do this. OK.

MLF: All right.

[Sound: A group of men shouting in Danish]

MLF: Well we're all just drifting off to sleep now.

PS: OK. That was the thing.

MLF: That is your lullaby.

PS: But you didn't you didn't see the choreography. That's a pity because it's a very important part of this number.

MLF: What were they doing?

PS: You have to see it someday.

MLF: We will see the film will we?

PS: I think that's not on the film. But maybe we will come maybe some morning you will see us on the street. We do lots of surprise attacks towards innocent people. So who knows what happens next?

MLF: We love talking to you. Thank you so much.

PS: OK. Thank you.

MLF: Bye Bye.

PS: Bye bye.

JD: Petri Sirvio is the conductor of the Finnish men's shouting choir. He spoke with former As It Happens host, Mary Lou Finlay in 2004.

[Music: Rock]

JD: Still ahead on As It Happened: The Archive Edition, reindeer are the victims of a truly astonishing number of car accidents every year in Finland. So we're going to go back to 1992 and hear about an effort to save the deer by adorning them with reflective neck bands. That's coming up on “The Finnish Episode” of As It Happened.

[Music: Rock]

Swamp soccer

Guest: Kyhälä Kimmo

JD: They were determined not to be bogged down by the field conditions. In the summer of 2010 muddled teams from around the world converged on Hyrynsalmi, Finland. Where they immersed themselves in the World Swamp Soccer Championships. Three hundred teams took part in the rather wet event. Kyhälä Kimmo was the swamp soccer organizer. He spoke with As It Happens guest host, Helen man in July of 2010.

HM: OK Kimmo, so why swamp soccer?

KYALA KIMMO: OK that's a good question. This is a tournament and sport where is combined two different sports. Because always in Finland we are not good in real soccer, but we are very good in cross-country skiing and all the Finnish skiers have always trained during their summer season in in Spain. So we have combined these two things. The world’s most popular sport: soccer and Finland’s national sport and that becomes swamp soccer.

HM: So swamp soccer evolved because cross-country skiers wanted to use it for training?

KK: Yes.

HM: Wow. Now isn't it almost impossible to move in the swamp?

KK: It's quite quite difficult because we have been in this year’s tournament we have 22 different fields. So we played almost 1,000 games there and some fields are very soft. You get one metre deep and some are not so soft, so it's only 20-30cm deep while you are running.

HM: What kind of skills does this game require?

KK: I mean after the best of a good spirit and if you have long legs like a like a moose and a very thin body then you are going faster.

HM: Do you need any special equipment?

KK: No, just normal football shoes, shorts and then let's play.

HM Do you throw out your clothes after a tournament or do you actually wash them?

KK: Actually yes we wash them, but each year we find about this year we have them 10 big bags of football shoes, so 400-500 different shoes every year.

HM: I saw a very embarrassing picture in Britain's Sun Newspaper of people who'd lost their soccer shorts is that is that one of the risks in this game —nakedness?

KK: That it can happen. Last year there's one lady who was sinking into the swamp with almost whole lady in swamp and then the friends all pulled her out and all he clothes were left into the swamp. So it's can happen.

HM: It's not just men who are crazy enough to play this game?

KK: yes they love it.

HM: Women love it too. All right, well thank you Kimmo, it’s good to speak with you.

KK: Thank you. Bye.

HMbye.

JD: As It Happens guest host, Helen Mann speaking with Kyhälä Kimmo in 2010. Mr. Kimmo was the organizer of the World Swamp Soccer Championships held in Hyrynsalmi, Finland.

[Music: Drum and bass]

Saint Urho

Guest: Carl Celo

JD: As banishers of bad things go St. Patrick kind of gets all the glory. According to legend ,of course, St. Patrick drove all the snakes out of Ireland. And for that he gets a big holiday. He gets a big holiday in which people celebrate with parades, with shamrock shakes, with beer. But Patrick is not the only critter ridder among the saints. Finland’s St. Urho also deserves a little credit. And in 1979 Carl Celo of Owen, Wisconsin convinced the state government there to give the Finnish Saint his due March 16th of 1979 marked the very first St. Urho’s day in Wisconsin. Note that it was one day before St. Patrick's Day and on the big day. Mr. Celo explained St. Urho’s legend the former As It Happens host, Barbara frum.

BARBRA FRUM: Hello Mr. Celo.

CARL CELO: Hello Ms. Frum, how are you?

BF: Nice to meet you. What do I wish you today?

CC: [speaking in Finnish]

BF: Same to you. What is the actual legend? Who was this guy?

CC: This goes back before the ice age when Finland was a more or less a tropical land. And grapes were a big crop in Finland. It was one of the mainstays of the agriculture in Finland. And it happens that this one year there was a big infestation of grasshoppers. And farmers were having a real bad time of it. The grape crop was being destroyed. And along came Urho and in his magical way expressed himself [speaking in Finnish] which translated means grasshopper grasshopper go away.

BF: What Patrick basically did for the snakes?

CC: Well that's where you know it kind of ties in. So he saved the crop and the farmers were so grateful that he became the patron saint of the Finnish vineyard workers.

BF: who made that one up?

CC: Who made it up?

BF: Were there ever grapes in Finland?

CC: It was scratched on the thigh bone of some prehistoric animals. I'm sorry.

BF: Do you have St. Urho’s Day cards?

CC: We St. Urho’s Day cards, grape wine of course and spirits you know all the wines made out of grapes and of course for d'oeuvres chocolate covered grasshoppers or something like that.

BF: Well at least we've got something now to celebrate. You see we need these mid-winter holidays between the Ides of March and St. Patrick's.

CC: Absolutely and especially this time of year and St. Urho’s ready.

BF: Bye bye.

CC: OK. Thank you very much. Bye bye.

JD: From March 16th of 1979, the first official St. Urho’s day in Wisconsin that was former As It Happens host, Barbara Frum speaking with Carl Celo of Owen, Wisconsin.

[Music: Electronic]

The whole hand on typing

JD: Some of you are about to feel smug some of you are about to scoff and if someone from group A is with someone from group B words will be exchanged likely on two separate keyboards. Here goes. A new study has concluded that untrained typists including those who only use two fingers can type just as fast as trained typists who use all their fingers. So those of you who hunt and peck are now raising your index fingers in triumph while those of you who consider yourselves virtuosos at typing virtuosos are perhaps raising different fingers. Now it is true that these results seem counterintuitive and the researchers from Alto University in Finland also seem surprised. We know that because they wrote quote, “surprisingly we find that regardless of the number of fingers involved, an everyday typists may achieve entry speeds of more than 70 words per minute and can achieve a level of performance you would expect from touch typists.” So on the one hand the researchers were thorough. They put glasses on the participants to track their eye movements and motion capture devices on their fingers. But then on the other hand there were only 30 participants all of whom fell under the somewhat vague category of everyday typists meaning none of them was exactly the Glenn Gould of the qwerty. And so the study may prove that the self-taught typist can go mano a mano with trained touch typists. Still there is something dubious about that conclusion, although I can't quite put my finger on it.

[Music: Jazz]

Shipwreck ale

Guest: Aneka Vilhelmson

JD: Everyone likes their beer a little chilled, but five bottles from Finland may have been just a bit cooler than most and that is because until 2011 they'd been nestling on the bottom of the Baltic Sea for nearly 200 years. The VTT Technical Research center is the group behind the project and spokesperson Aneka Vilhelmson discussed the discovery with Carol in February of 2011.

CAROL OFF: Ms. Vilhelmson, how was this beer discovered?

ANEKA VILHELMSON: Well the beer was discovered from a shipwreck which was found outside the island which is situated just between Finland and Sweden.

CO: What do you think you can learn about its secrets?

AW: We're going to for example we're going to try to see if there's anything living in it. So if we can't find any living yeast cells or bacterial cells that would be extremely interesting.

CO: All right, the most important thing: did anyone taste it?

AW: We have actually some experts there who the tasted the beer. I must say first of all, that beer is not meant to be lager for almost 200 years. So it was quite sulphur-y it was a bit like cheese. And it had some burnt notes and very strong intense tastes, but quite acid, so that's probably been a lot of fermentation going on in the bottle.

CO: What might you call it?

AW: I don't know? Shipwreck beer.

CO: I was going to say shipwreck ale.

[Sound: Laughing]

AW: Perhaps.

CO: Well it's all very interesting, Ms. Vilhelmson, thank you.

AW: Bye.

JD: From 2011 that was my regular As It Happens co-host Carol Off, speaking with Aneka Vilhelmson and Ms. Vilhelmson was in Espoo, Finland.

[Music: Drum and bass]

Reflective road kill

Guest: Matty Hostinin

JD: Before we get into the meat so to speak of this next interview I would like to make it very clear that this is not a story about the reindeer from the North Pole. Those reindeer are safe. No worries. All is good with the North Pole reindeer. This after all, is “The Finnish Episode” of As It Happened. And so this is about the reindeer in Finland and Lapland and I'm sorry to say that the Nordic reindeer don't fare quite as well as their North Pole brethren and that is because they get hit by cars a lot. And in 1992 authorities in Lapland came up with a solution they hoped would protect not only the reindeer, but also the cars and the drivers. They planned to put shiny, reflective neck bands on the reindeer. Matty Hostinin was working as a reporter in Helsinki, Finland and he explained the plan to former As It Happens host Michael Enright.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Mr. Hostinin, what do these neck bands look like? Can you describe them for us?

MATTY HOSTININ: They're about a couple of inches wide. They stretch right around the neck and are stuck together with velcro and they are reflective all the way around. In other words the whole band shines in the light when car headlights hits the bands.

ME: Why have they chosen neck bands?

MH: Well, in the past Finnish reindeer herders have tried all kinds of different things including painting the antlers of reindeers with reflective paint. But in fact the reindeers have often scratched the paint off and as you know antlers fall off once a year from reindeer. So that proved unsuccessful. And also they've tried stamping the reindeer’s ears with reflective disks. These also were torn off by the reindeers and were mistaken for pedestrian reflectors by car drivers.

ME: What do you mean by pedestrian reflectors? I don't understand what that is?

MH: Reflectors on people walking on the roads in Lapland. Finns are very conscious of being able to be seen in the dark and so they wear reflectors. Car drivers would mistake these reflectors that the Reindeers had in their ears. They thought they belonged to people and therefore expected the people to stay on the side of the road when they drove down. But in fact, they were reindeers and then they would move in the middle of the road and crashes would occur.

ME: How serious is the situation — reindeer car accidents?

MH: Well it's serious in terms of money — not so much in terms of the accidents. Elk accidents often end up with deaths of car drivers, but there are about 4,000 reindeers lost a year in car accidents which means about a million dollars in compensation payments to animal owners by the state. When you think that there are about 400,000 reindeer roaming in the Finnish wilds of the arctic Lapland it is a lot of money.

ME: Reindeer meat is quite popular is it in Lapland?

MH: Very popular Lapland and then and quite popular in the rest of Finland as well, but it's quite expensive as well.

ME: Have you eaten a reindeer yourself?

MH: Yes.

ME: Can you describe the taste?

MH: It's dry meat, very tasty, in fact much tastier than other domesticated animals and has very little fat on it. It's very nourishing. And so they say and I like it I think it's a good taste. But there are lots of people who find it too meaty.

ME: Mr. Hostinin, thank you for talking to us tonight.

MH: It was a pleasure.

ME: Goodbye now.

MH: Goodbye.

JDMatty Hostinin a reporter in Helsinki, Finland, speaking with former As It Happens host, Michael Enright in 1992.

[Music: Electronic]

Sauna society

Guest: Harold Taher

JD: Stepping into a sauna is something Finnish people have been doing for generations. But a few decades ago in other parts of the world a visit to a sauna came to mean something else. Trips to the sauna were being advertised, but what was really being sold was sex. And for the Finns: well that left them a little steamed. So the Finnish Sauna Society launched a campaign to make saunas clean again and to reinforce their simple, family friendly, original use. Harold Taher was the head of the Finnish Sauna Society. He spoke with Dale Goldhawk on As It Happens in 1990.

DALE GOLDHAWK: Mr. Taher, can you tell us why the misuse of the word sauna bothers you so much?

HAROLD TAHER: We have had the sauna thousands of years. We are so close to the sauna. For us it is all about our life. It is the food, the air, the water and the sauna. It is so simple and we don't like to have the sauna used for bad aspirations as in the middle of Europe.

DG: You're worried that many people really forget that saunas are examples of good clean living not examples of prostitution?

HT: Yeah it's very good for clean living, for the soul and the body.

DG: How long have you been taking saunas yourself?

HT: My whole life. I am 75-years-old. I started at two months old in my father's house. At that time when my father was born the whole population of Finland was born in sauna.

DG: They were born right in the sauna?

HT: Yeah, it was a very good place for us having a baby. It was sterile and for the young mother, a place to be away from the family and the other children.

DG: are Saunas just as popular today in Finland as they were back in the days when your father was born in one?

HT: It's more and more popular. We have 5 million people here. And 4 million take the sauna once every week. You know our government they take sauna together once a week — every Wednesday, because all the hard problems are solved in the sauna.

EW: Mr. Taher, do you think you'll be able to change some people's minds about what saunas are really supposed to be all about?

HT: I have had good success in that. The government of Norway are interested and this is so in small countries as more countries when the leaders are doing something others do the same.

EG: Mr. Taher, thank you very much for talking to us today.

HT: Thank you and good sauna to you.

EG: Good sauna to you too. Bye bye.

JD: From 1990 that was former As It Happens host Dale Goldhawk speaking with Harold Taher of the Finnish Sauna Society.

[Music: Punk]

Eddie the Eagle

Guest: Eddie Edwards

JD: Who, who, can forget Eddie the Eagle the British ski jumper who catapulted to fame in the 1988 Winter Olympics in Calgary by placing dead last in both the 70 metre and 90 metre events? But although he lost, he won the hearts of underdogs around the world and he learned to ski jump in Finland. Well twenty five years later Eddie Edwards reinvented himself as Eddie the Seagull with considerably more success if not notoriety in 2013. Eddie the Seagull was crowned the victor on “Splash” a UK reality show that featured celebrities in a high diving competition. Carol spoke with Eddie Edwards after his high diving victory in February of 2013.

CO: Eddy, First of all big congratulations to you.

EE: Thank you. It's been very very hard work and I just was hoping you know in front of live television — in front of seven or eight million people — that I wasn't going to hash it. But it went very very well. Couldn't have gone better.

CO: We know you from skiing and that's what people know you best, but there's a very strange story that you were living in a mental hospital in Finland when you got the news that you were going to go to Calgary?

EE: Yes I was, yeah I was always invited to Finland to train with the Finnish ski jumping team and they were training and I had no way to stay there and they arranged for me to sleep in this mental hospital for about a month and a half while I was doing my ski jumping. My ski jumping went from strength to strength and I think it was directly because I was staying in this mental hospital, so it did me good in the end.

CO: There are so many other legendary stories about you one of them is that even though you're doing the ski jump you were afraid of heights. Is that true?

EE: Oh yes. I'm always always afraid of heights, but never afraid enough that I wouldn't do anything like ski jumping; just afraid enough to make me concentrate and make me focus on what I've got to do and I did 70 or 80 thousand jumps and I was just as scared to do the last one as I was to do the first, you never really get used to it.

CO: And you finished last in your competitions and you went back home to a hero's welcome?

EE: Yes. They didn't mind that I came 58. For them it was just great. I was flying the flag I was Britain's first ever ski jumper and they appreciated that fact.

CO: The International Olympic Committee didn't celebrate you quite the same way. They did give a new rule called the” Eddie the Eagle Rule” named after you and was to tighten the rules for qualifying for the games to make sure that someone like you never got to compete again. How did you feel about that?

EE: I was very upset about that because you know I think they just took completely the wrong end of the stick when I was competing at the Olympic Games. Because for all the all the people ordinary everyday people let me bring people in officialdom hated it they said it wasn't right that a guy who came 58 should get more attention than the guy who won the event. They thought I was making a mockery of the sport and bringing the sport into disrepute. When that wasn't my aim at all and I don't think I did that at all. I was promoting the sport as best I could with what I had and I wasn't the best jumper in the world, but I was still promoting in such a good fun way and I knew it was a shame that they both out these new rules which effectively kicked me and people like me out of the Olympic Games.

CO: Well Eddie, we will be watching because I'm sure this is not the last we'll hear of Eddie the Eagle.

EE: Thank you. I did say it's so nice that 25 years after the Calgary Olympics people remember me so fondly. So thank you.

CO: Take care Eddie.

JD: From 2013 that was Carol Off in conversation with Eddie Edwards better known as Eddie The Seagull better known as Eddie the Eagle. Mr. Edwards was in Woodchester, England.

[Music: Rock]

JD: That is it for this encore presentation of As It Happened: The Archive Editon. You can also find all the episodes on our website www.cbc.ca/aih. Click on “As It Happened” under the features tab listen again or share them.

[Music: Rock]

JD: Our thanks — very special thanks — to Keith Hart and the team at CBC Radio archives. To our writer Chris Howden for help with the words. And of course to our technician, Reynold Gonsalves. As It Happened: The Archive Edition is produced by Laurie Allen, I’m Jeff Douglas. Have a good night.

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Jan. 5, 2017 episode trancript

Social Sharing

More from this episode