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The AIH Transcript for April 15, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Appealing to reason. She was sexually assaulted, then she was convicted of violating a publication ban intended to protect her own identity. Her lawyer tells us why a court should overrule that ruling.

CH: Losing battle. The US says its soldiers will soon leave Afghanistan, a move our guest says will leave everyone more vulnerable.

CO: Tax to grind. The Conservatives announced plans to make Canadians pay for their carbon use. But we'll hear from an MP who insists that in no way does it resemble a carbon tax.

CH: Strength in numbers. The health minister of Bhutan tells us how the Himalayan nation managed to vaccinate 93 percent of its adult population in just two weeks, which has been a real shot in the arm.

CO: Striking a chord. Last night, for the first time in 400 days, the New York Philharmonic took to the stage in front of a small, masked and distanced audience, which welcomed the performance as a euphoric sign of hope

CH: And does not compute. An inventor on Prince Edward Island spent years creating a minimalist board game called Mur, which he says is more exciting than chess and impossible for artificial intelligence to master. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that knows some games have lots of bells and whistles, but less is mur.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'This absolutely is not a carbon tax,' Conservative MP says of party's new price on carbon

Sex Assault Publication Ban

Guest: Robin Parker

CH: An Ontario woman is fighting charges that she violated a publication ban in a sexual assault case because the identity it was designed to protect is her own. The Waterloo region woman is believed to be Canada's first sexual assault victim to be prosecuted for breaking a court issued publication ban in her own case. She pleaded guilty to that offence and accepted a fine. But she's now appealing the verdict with help from a new legal team. Robin Parker is a former federal crown attorney who's now representing the unnamed woman. We reached Ms. Parker in Toronto.

CO: Robin, what crime was your client accused of committing?

ROBIN PARKER: My client was accused of breaching a publication ban. She was a complainant in a sex assault case. And in that case, the judge had ordered a ban on publishing her identity. And after the accused in her case, who happened to be her ex-husband, was convicted, she emailed the decision to some of her friends and family, people in her support network. And the police arrested her and charged her with violating the court order.

CO: Okay. Let's unpack this. And so this is the reason for a publication ban is to protect the identity of a victim, right?

RP: Sure. That's exactly what the purpose of the section is for. It's meant to encourage reporting and sex assault cases because historically there has been shame unfortunately in reporting this. And so that's the purpose of the section.

CO: But in this case, she was the victim of this. It was her name that was supposed to be protected. And she shared her own name with her family in this ruling, is that right?

RP: That's right. So it seems that someone else may have shared it further. My client says that she wasn't involved with that, but it came to the attention of her ex-husband. He went to the police and the police investigated and then arrested our client.

CO: The ex-husband who was convicted of sexual assault on her. He complained about her releasing her own name in this case?

RP: Correct, to her friends and family.

CO: So she was before the court having been charged with this. And she pled guilty, right?

RP: That's right. She did.

CO: Why did she do that?

RP: That's a great question. It's sometimes hard for people who don't have experience with the criminal justice system to understand why that happens. In a word, she was tired. She had been through a lot of difficulty and trauma, a violent divorce in which her ex-husband had sexually assaulted her. Her children were nearby when that happened. She managed to testify and her ex-husband was convicted. Then she was charged and prosecuted and she wanted just to close that traumatic chapter in her life. She wanted it to be over.

CO: How traumatic was that for her after everything she'd been through to then share the ruling about the conviction of someone who had sexually assaulted her, to share that, and then she's arrested for having done that? I mean, what effect did that have on her?

RP: It's pretty difficult to imagine what it must have been like for her. I think she just felt that it was part of something that was never going to come to an end, not just the sexual assault, but the divorce and all of the things that were a part of it.

CO: Now, the judge said at the time when he took that plea from her and fined her, he said court orders have to be followed, particularly ones that deal with people's privacy -- that was behind Justice Thomas McKay's decision. What do you make of that?

RP: So I have a bit of difficulty with that, and that's why we're appealing the decision. Because it's her privacy that the section is meant to protect. That being said, there's another problem, which is that in order for her to violate the publication ban, and this is a bit legally technical, but she has to transmit it and that's been interpreted by the courts to mean broadly disseminate. So I guess the difficulty that we have with the decision and why we're appealing it is that we say she didn't broadly disseminate it. And even though she pleaded guilty, the judge always has the job of making sure that people aren't convicted of things that aren't crimes. And even if she's saying, I did this, the judge still has to look at it and make sure that it was a crime. And we say that that was a mistake.

CO: You are a former federal Crown attorney. So what just from your experience within the Prosecutor Crown's office, why would Crown prosecutors even pursue this?

RP: Well, it's difficult to understand. So the Crown's office has to look at every case and determine whether it's in the public interest to proceed. And my co counsel, Karen Symes, and I on this case, we have a hard time understanding how the ministry of the attorney general's office could come to that conclusion in this case. In fact, this decision will have a chilling effect on the reporting of sexual assault, which is so ironic, given that the purpose of the publication ban section is to protect complainants and encourage reporting.

CO: How difficult is it going to be to appeal something where your client has pled guilty?

RP: Well, every appeal is an uphill battle. That's why we're defence lawyers. We love to champion difficult causes. But that doesn't mean that just because it's difficult, it's not the right thing.

CO: If this conviction stands, what are the consequences for your client?

RP: Well, it means that every time she applies for a job where the employer requires a criminal record check, which is almost every case, she'll have to disclose that she has a criminal conviction. Every time she wants to enter the United States, the same thing. And here's the ultimate irony Carol, when that happens, you know, people say, "Well what were you convicted of?" for example, if you're entering the United States. And so what she would have to disclose in that circumstance that she's been a victim of a sexual assault. You know, the irony is that this prosecution has just made her name, her identity, the fact that she's been a sexual assault victim more widely disseminated than it otherwise ever would have been. And possibly in her case, it might follow her for the rest of her life that way. You could see why she might want to close the chapter and hopefully start healing and move on to better days.

CO: Well, it's good that she has a strong counsel Robin. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RP: Thank you Carol.

CH: Robin Parker is one of the lawyers representing an Ontario woman accused of violating a publication ban on her own name. Her co-counsel is Karen Symes.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Conservative Climate Plan

Guest: Tim Uppal

CH: Erin O'Toole is promising to impose a price on carbon use. It is not a carbon tax, mind you. Mr. O'Toole refers to it as a carbon pricing mechanism. In Ottawa this morning, theConservative leader rolled out his long awaited climate plan to considerable surprise, it includes a promise to make Canadians pay a mandatory levy on the fuel we buy. And semantics aside, that is a change in direction for a party that has spent several elections condemning the other parties for supporting a carbon tax. Just a few weeks ago, we asked the Conservative MP Tim Uppal, what they were planning to do about climate change. And Carol asked him this.

CO: [SOUNDCLIP: Will you embrace the carbon tax?

TIM UPPAL: No. A carbon tax itself is not what would really help the environment, especially down the road, that hurts consumers, that will only raise prices, that will hurt jobs. A carbon tax is not the solution.]

CH: We reached Tim Uppal once again in Ottawa, Canada.

CO: Mr. Uppal, that was your last month saying no to a carbon tax. So what's changed?

TIM UPPAL: Nothing's changed. This absolutely is not a carbon tax. A tax is money that goes to the government. Our plan would not send any money at all to the government. Our low carbon savings account would allow Canadians to, you know, they would collect that money and then be able to spend it on on green technology, on maybe a furnace for their home or maybe a bicycle or a bus pass.

CO: Okay. So you would put a price on carbon, right?

TU: Yes, it would be a price, yes. And maybe like if you fill up your gas, you would see it right on the receipt that how much you're getting -- so how much you paid for your gas, but also how much you're getting into your account. That will accumulate. And then we allow you as a Canadian to decide how you want to spend that money.

CO: So you're going to take money, you're going to charge them a levy on that purchase of gas, right?

TU: They will be charged. There will be kind of like their savings account. The carbon savings account will collect this money and it will accumulate. And they could pool it with their family. They can purchase something, put it towards something larger, like a set of furnace or maybe an electric vehicle or something smaller, like a bicycle or a bus pass.

CO: Okay. Just before we get to what they can do with their points, what exactly would you call the thing you're doing when they pay for the gas and there's a levy on that that they have to pay?

TU: Yeah. So it is pricing. It's a pricing the carbon, absolutely. And I know where you're trying to go with this. But a tax is where the money goes to the government. Here the money is not going to the government. This is being saved back into Canadians pockets and they get to use it. This is not going into the black hole of the government where, like Justin Trudeau just spent 6-billion dollars on consultants. This is going to Canadians.

CO: Okay. So they're going to pay this levy -- a levy, because that's what it is. They pay this levy when they buy the gas or use any kind of carbon based fuel. And then that goes into this kind of loyalty card thing. And then who makes up the list of things that they're allowed to buy? Who's going to structure what they're actually able to spend those loyalty points on?

TU: We will come up with a list on what they can do and we will work with the market too to see what new and innovative ideas that come out. I believe there will be a number of companies that come out, whether it's going to be for new efficient furnaces -- and we work with them to say, yes, that's going to be approved. There'll be maybe other products as well, that if Canadians use those products, it will help to reduce emissions.

CO: Okay. I think you know that the levy that is now placed on fossil fuels, that carbon tax goes to the government, goes to Ottawa, yes. But it comes back almost entirely -- in some cases, even more money comes back as a rebate. And people can then take that rebate and spend it on anything they want. They can buy food or rent or pay their bills.

TU: But there's a big difference there. Right now, families that are commuting from my riding, the edge of Edmonton into downtown. Where families that are out in different parts of a Mississauga and going into downtown. Those families that are commuting maybe two vehicles, they are not getting back what they put into it. Our system is going to be much more transparent and you get back what you pay into it. And so when you fill up, you will see what you collect and then that will go to you for you to be able to use.

CO: But most people are getting a full rebate and they're getting, in some cases, getting more and they're able to buy whatever they want. Why would Canadians want to now have a carbon tax that is only allowed to use that when the money comes back to them in ways that you say they can use it? Why would they want that when they have a system already that lets them spend that money in any way they want to?

TU: First of all, most people are not getting what they put into it, what they get back. Like I said, there are many many families that have two vehicles, they're paying a lot of carbon tax to Justin Trudeau and not getting that back. This way it's much more transparent. You get what you put into it and then you get to use it. You do have choices. There's going to be many, many choices on how you use this.

CO: Maybe what I really need to do with that money that I get back is to buy food from my family.

TU: First of all, with our program, you are already paying a third less of in upfront anyway, so it is going to be a third less than the carbon tax that you're paying now under Justin Trudeau. So you will save money. You have more money in your pocket for food and other purchases. But then with the money that you do accumulate, you and your family for you can pool it together or use it individually will be able to use towards some of these approved products that many Canadians are going to purchase anyways, are going to need anyways. And then you get the credit on those products.

CO: So how do you expect to reach the goals you say you want to reach in reducing carbon if you're not going to put an actually quite high carbon tax out there?

TU: So you're right. The Justin Trudeau plan is taxing Canadians and then he keeps increasing that tax. And so...

CO: Well yeah, because...

TU: Twice in the middle of a pandemic. [Cross talk] He increases it and he's still not reaching those targets. We will reach our targets yes with the low carbon savings account -- that's one part of it. There's also lowering industrial emissions. We'll work with the industry to do so. Increasing use of renewable natural gas. Implementing a low carbon fuel standard. So there's going to be a number of things that we will work with industry to do as well.

CO: So you're saying that despite the fact that even with the goals, even with the carbon pricing that the Liberal government has put in place, still lots of economists are saying it's not going to reach the Paris Agreement levels. Are you saying that even with a lower carbon tax, you with the things you're going to put in place, you are actually going to meet Paris Agreement goals?

TU: Yes, we are going to meet Paris Agreement goals. So we're going to hit those targets, help the environment reduce emissions, and we're going to improve the economy. A whole slew of new green energy type of jobs. And we're going to export our technology, world leading technology that we will have here in Canada.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Mr. Uppal thank you.

TU: Thank you very much.

CH: Tim Uppal is the MP for Edmonton Mill Woods. He spoke to us from Ottawa.

[Music: Guitar Music]

PEI Board Game

Guest: Desmond Davies

CH: At first glance, it doesn't look like a very complicated board game. You've got a wooden circle scattered with colour coded stones in a grid like pattern. It's called mur. But don't be fooled by the minimalist design, according to inventor Desmond Davies, 'It's a fun but highly strategic chess like game.' When Russian chess master Garry Kasparov lost to a computer in 1997, Mr. Davis set out to create a game as exciting as chess that couldn't be beaten by artificial intelligence. It took him two decades, but he believes mur is that perfect AI proof game. We reached Desmond Davis in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island.

CO: Desmond, in a sentence, could you describe your game of mur?

DESMOND DAVIES: In one sentence? No, I couldn't do that. Could you give me a few more sentences?

CO: [Laughs] Okay. Take a few sentences.

DD: Okay. Mur is about arranging stones and caps and positions on a round grid. Stones are constantly moving and bumping stones to other points. And you just place a stones one by one. Once they're all their, movement begins. And the big thing is that every stone on the board moves exactly according to its number. So a single stone moves a distance of one. Any stone in a pair moves in a distance of two. And a group of three stones moves distance of three. That's basically it.

CO: The board itself doesn't look like a chessboard. How similar is it to actually chess?

DD: Actually, just yesterday I was looking at quantum mechanics for the first time and it really looks like an atomic model. We have three concentric rings and like a nucleus and electrons zipping around in orbit. So it kind of looks like that.

CO: I was thinking something like a cross between Chinese checkers and an Ouija board.

DD: Chinese checkers, okay. Yeah.

CO: How hard is it to play this game?

DD: It's very very friendly. There's a little bit more involved than go or checkers, but significantly easier than chess.

CO: Why did you want to invent a game that could defeat artificial intelligence?

DD: Well, in the beginning, it was after Christmas and I just wanted to make a game that was fun. At the time, I thought Risk was a great game. And I thought, hey, I can make sort of a Risk version of chess. And I would have like an inner army being under siege, like a fortress under siege. But then I found that the surrounding army, you know, why not just have it on a round board? And then it just started to evolve from there. And then once I reduced it to its most simplest, three concentric rings -- I don't know, it looked like an atomic model. I felt like I discovered plutonium or something or I was on the verge of discovering something big. So that's when I was really inspired. And I thought, boy I better get serious about this because I think I'm onto something.

CO: But you also think that it can't meet the same fate as chess and Garry Kasparov who discovered that he got beaten by artificial intelligence at chess, right, that's part of it?

DD: Well, yes. And the reason why I believe that is because games like Go and Chess and Shogi, these are all warlike games and they concentrate on the elimination of material or territory. So there's an end game with those games because they're warlike. But mur is not warlike. It's more like a shifting puzzle and there is no elimination of territory or material. Artificial intelligence thrives in an environment where it can reach an end game scenario through incremental elimination of territory or material. That doesn't exist in mur because there is no permanent elimination of territory or material. So in that kind of environment, AI cannot be dominant.

CO: Okay. And so it's just two people play this game, right?

DD: That's right.

CO: Okay. And so how advanced are you in actually getting this game out to people?

DD: Well, we've just started just in March. I decided that this is it, the rules are done. And I'm basically just using my own funds to get this off the ground. So I only have about 10 boards that I basically produced. So we just started. And what we need to do is crowdfund so that we can get a larger operation up and running.

CO: You said that just over these past months, a lot of the ideas came together. But you've worked on this for a long time, haven't you?

DD: Well, that's right, since 1998. And it's really quite exciting actually, because it was back in 1998 that I came across this atomic model type of look for the game after reducing it to its most simplest. And it just grew from there. And it's really quite something because I just discovered that it really was in 1998, the same year that I started inventing mur, that the first quantum computer was invented.

CO: Mere coincidence. What do you make of that?

DD: I don't know. But intuition is quite something. And I mean, I didn't plan that. And it's interesting. I started out basically with the ambition of defeating AI, having no idea that in the very year that I started with this quantum mechanical model looking game that the first quantum computer had just been invented, and I discovered this just yesterday. So it's quite something.

CO: Okay. But how smart does someone have to be to actually play this game?

DD: Well, I don't know. I mean, the thing is an eight year old child could play. It's good for ages eight to adult, just like chess. But the rules are not intimidating like chess. In fact, my experience has been that people just like to play the game because its rules are just so simple and friendly. But once you start to look at the game and what it's capable of, you see that it's quite deep.

CO: All right. So deep, but is it fun?

DD: Well, that's the thing. Yes, it is fun. That was a challenging part. It took quite a while to get it to the point where it is fun. So I always say there are three components in that it has to be deep, simple, and fun. And fun took me 23 years to get to. And that's what's the most important thing. And I recently did that. I really like to have it as an extracurricular activity in schools. So that's what I'm trying right now, but also just to have the company producing these boards. So those are the two routes that I'm going to be taking -- the Scholastic route in addition to the production.

CO: Well, Desmond best of luck.

DD: Thank you very much Carol.

CO: Thank you.

CH: Desmond Davies is the inventor of a new board game called mur. We reached him in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island.

[Music: Banjo Music]

New York Philharmonic

CH: It didn't look or sound like your average New York Philharmonic concert. There were no brass or woodwind instruments. All the string musicians on stage wore masks -- the audience did too. They were distanced and needed proof of vaccination or a negative test in order to attend. But nothing could put a damper on the night, not even the HVAC system that roared in the background, providing reassuring ventilation and added percussion throughout the evening. Last night, the orchestra took to the stage at The Shed in Manhattan in front of a small audience for the first time in exactly 400 days. The conductor welcomed the crowd and said the musicians had been dreaming of that moment for a long time. Other than a few outdoor concerts, the pandemic has sidelined the orchestra for the past 13 months. But last night marked the first step in a slow and staggered return to the stage. After the performance, the concert master was speechless, admitting, "I'm kind of on a euphoric high right now because I missed it more than I realised." Here's a recording from last night. This is the New York Philharmonic performing Caroline Shaw's "Entr'acte." If you listen closely, you might be able to hear the HVAC accompaniment.

[MUSIC: New York Philharmonic Performing Caroline Shaw's "Entr'acte"]

Part 2: How the small nation of Bhutan vaccinated 93% of its adults in just 2 weeks

Afghanistan Withdrawal

Guest: Colin P. Clarke

CH: US President Joe Biden says it's time to end America's longest war. The last American troops will withdraw from Afghanistan by September 11th, 2021, a not insignificant date. The war in Afghanistan has killed more than 100,000 Afghans and left more than 2,000 US service members dead. And it cost the US government trillions of dollars. President Biden said there was no point in pouring more time and money into an intractable war. Today, experts say the Taliban is stronger than ever in Afghanistan, carrying out attacks on government and civilian targets and controlling large swaths of the country. Colin P. Clarke is the director of policy and research with The Soufan Group, an intelligence and security consultancy. We reached him in Pittsburgh.

CO: Mr. Clarke, President Biden says the United States has accomplished its objectives in Afghanistan. Do you agree?

COLIN P CLARKE: No, I don't agree. You know, with all due respect to the president, he mentioned the killing of Osama bin Laden and the degradation of the al-Qaida transnational terrorist organisation. But degrading a terrorist organisation is not the same as defeating it. And now that the US is withdrawing, we're essentially offering al-Qaida a golden opportunity to regenerate its networks and potentially one day threaten the US homeland again.

CO: But the war has been against is the Taliban, right, and the Taliban has never is -- as odious as it might be as a government -- it has never had any direct designs on the United States. So what threat does it still pose?

COLIN P CLARKE: Well, the Taliban sheltered al-Qaida. It continues its relationship with al-Qaida. And al-Qaida has made it very clear that it still desires to strike the United States. So by providing a sanctuary or safe haven to a transnational terrorist group that's killed thousands of Americans and wants to do so again, I'd say that's a pretty significant threat.

CO: The administration of Joe Biden has said that the withdrawal will be on September 11th, 2021, exactly the 20th anniversary since what happened in New York and elsewhere. So what do you make of that as a symbol?

COLIN P CLARKE: That's a terrible decision. I support the president and I really hope that the withdrawal works according to the way the administration believes it will. But offering the Taliban a major propaganda victory by agreeing to withdraw all troops by 9/11 makes no sense to me. I think there were 364 better options for days that he could have chosen.

CO: What does that date symbolise for the Taliban in Afghanistan?

COLIN P CLARKE: It's going to symbolise a victory and exactly what they've been saying for the last two decades, which is that they're going to drive the United States out of Afghanistan much like they did the Soviet Union. And we gift wrapped and delivered them the greatest propaganda victory that they could have ever imagined. I wonder myself if this is not something that was negotiated behind the scenes and that that date was selected by the Taliban.

CO: How is that possible?

COLIN P CLARKE: Because we agreed that we were not going to stay beyond May. We are now staying beyond May. And so that could have been the quid pro quo for the Taliban to agree not to attack US troops.

CO: The Defence Department, the White House is saying they can still continue this fight against terrorism in Afghanistan through offshore counterterrorism strategies. They have drones, they have spy networks. They have long range bombers. They're feeding 4-billion dollars a year to Afghan forces inside the country. So is it not possible to some extent control this by remote control?

COLIN P CLARKE: Oh they're certainly going to try. But many of us aren't too sanguine about the results of that. You need a local partner on the ground to work with. There's no substitute for training on a hands on approach Afghan forces. And I think right now what you see the United States doing is scrambling. Where are these bases that the United States is going to set up for offshore counterterrorism strategy? Is it in Central Asia? Is it in Pakistan? You're really picking between several bad options and you're also at the mercy of those states and their leaders.

CO: And how likely is it that there would be people lining up to volunteer to be in Afghanistan to be part of that from the United States, given that lack of network support?

COLIN P CLARKE: Well, I think we're in for a pretty challenging period ahead. I don't think this is the end to the conflict. I think we're really moving into a new phase. And we could end up in a situation where on the 20 year anniversary of 9/11, we could see the Taliban and its allies hoisting the black flag of jihad over the capital city of Kabul.

CO: And how likely is that?

COLIN P CLARKE: Probably better than 50 percent at this point. If it's not by September, by 2022, I think it's quite likely the Taliban could control more than half of the country.

CO: Some argue that it already controls probably about that much.

COLIN P CLARKE: Yeah, so it's about consolidating population centres, taking control of key arteries and highways throughout the country and establishing checkpoints. I think you're right, it could be about 50 percent right now, and it could be climbing higher.

CO: After the attack on 9/11, there were many people within CIA, within intelligence networks at the United States who very sadly said, "I told you so" -- because they said the same thing had happened in Afghanistan when the United States left at the end of its proxy war with the Soviets, which led, of course, as you know, to civil war and where the Taliban and al-Qaida got established. So are there those who are saying 'we're headed for the same place,' that by leaving Afghanistan, the possibility of what happened in the 1990s will repeat itself?

COLIN P CLARKE: There's no question. I think that's the saddest part to me as someone that's followed this conflict closely for 20 years and someone that has spent time in Afghanistan. And the heartbreaking part is to see what's going to happen to young Afghans that have known nothing but conflicts, for those that have seen a better future and a brighter future. And that's going to be vanquished now because the Taliban is going to implement its draconian version of Sharia law.

CO: They called it blowback at that time, the blowback was the establishment of al-Qaida and the Taliban when the uS withdrew that time. What do you think a blowback will be this time?

COLIN P CLARKE: I mean, we could be looking at a situation, and I'm not trying to exaggerate here, where Afghanistan once again becomes the place where foreign fighters flow. We saw what happened in the Levant in Iraq and Syria post 2014. There's other hot spots around the world, if you look at what's happening in sub-Saharan Africa right now. And I think Afghanistan could become that magnet. And it's not just al-Qaida. There's also the Haqqani network and there's numerous other jihadists throughout the region that could be pulled to Afghanistan, just contributing to the civil war that many think is over the horizon.

CO: We will be talking to people inside Afghanistan and Afghans about what this means, the consequences. But I wonder from the point of view of your own country, from military, from the soldiers, service people who served there who lost so many members and who have suffered high levels of PTSD -- what do you think this means to them, this announcement from the Biden administration?

COLIN P CLARKE: Well, I'm a lifelong civilian, but from a military family. And it would be, I think, improper for me to speak on behalf of troops that have served there and lost loved ones. But I would say that it's probably a very emotional moment right now for them and for their families.

CO: We will leave it there for now. As I say, we'll be covering this further. Mr. Clarke thank you for speaking with us.

COLIN P CLARKE: Thank you.

CH: Colin P. Clarke is the director of policy and research at Soufan Group, an intelligence and security consultancy. He's in Pittsburgh.

[Music: Piano Music]

Sports Cut

CH: Earlier this week, Professor Nadia Verrelli told us about the life altering news she had received, she and more than 100 others had been terminated by Laurentian University and dozens of programs had been cut by. The university in Sudbury, Ontario is going through an insolvency process. Well, varsity sports teams are also being cut. Swimming and hockey are gone. Former NHLer Craig Duncanson has coached the men's hockey team for eight years. Today, he spoke with CBC Sudbury.

CRAIG DUNCANSON: [SOUNDCLIP: Losing something like that, it's somewhat comparable to grieving. There's a little bit of anger, a little bit of frustration. And I'm quite confused, quite frankly, because as far as the athletic programs that were discontinued -- for programs in men's and women's swimming and men's and women's hockey -- it was a poor fiscal decision. You basically decided that there's 100 students that won't be at Laurentian anymore. And there were programs that had some marketing capabilities and people from around the country and around the world found out about Laurentian. And the numbers along, the budgets between those three teams are far below the benefits to the university of having 100 students that would never know Laurentian existed.

MARKUS SCHWABE: But hockey, you've got ice time that you've got to purchase. Isn't it an expensive sport? There's equipment you've got to purchase.

CRAIG DUNCANSON: There is expensive in everything. But basically for the hockey program Markus, the university's investment was under 300,000 dollars a year and that represents about 40 students a year that come here because there's a hockey program. We have people transferring out left, right, and centre since Monday. And 10 recruits that were coming this year that are looking for another school to go to.

MARKUS SCHWABE: What's the reaction been from your players? Did you have to tell them? Was that your job?

CRAIG DUNCANSON: Whether it was my job or not, it was my responsibility. I recruited these young men. I brought them here. I do have a relationship with all of them. So, yeah, it was devastating for them.]

CH: Laurentian University men's hockey coach Craig Duncanson speaking with CBC Sudbury's Markus Schwabe this morning.

[Music: Hip-hop Music]

Bhutan Vaccinated

Guest: Dasho Dechen Wangmo

CH: Bhutan started its COVID-19 immunisation program later than many countries and significantly later than Canada. And about two weeks after its March 27th kick off, it pretty much stopped, not because of a shortage of vaccines or public scepticism or any kind of botched rollout -- just the opposite. It pretty much stopped because it's pretty much done. As of last week, 93 percent of adults had received their first dose. Dasho Dechen Wangmo is Bhutan's Minister of Health. We reached her in Thimphu.

CO: Minister Wangmo this is quite an accomplishment you have achieved. What's the secret to your success?

DASHO DECHEN WANGMO: I think personally it's the leadership of His Majesty the King, the solidarity of the public, and the dedication of the health workers. And I often joke this, but we have a very technocrat government [chuckles] highly focussed on health. The very reason why the government was elected was the health agenda. And of course, the continuous guidance and the leadership of his majesty the king.

CO: Also your extremely dedicated public health workers. You didn't have a large population to reach, but a difficult one in many respects. Can you just tell us what were the challenges of this campaign?

DASHO DECHEN WANGMO: True. In terms of size, we are fairly a small nation with around 700,000 population. In terms of the reach, you know, it's very diverse. We have many remote, inaccessible communities. So those were, of course, physical challenges. But nevertheless, we also have very good primary health care system, specially for vaccination for our children. So we have fairly a very good network of primary health care workers across the country. And we used for many hard-to-reach places, we used helicopter services to distribute the vaccine, and then we use networks of vehicles not just from Ministry of Health, but from other sectors as well. So this is where when I was talking about solidarity, this is where the solidarity aspect comes in. And the credit goes to his majesty the king, people's love for the king. And for the first time, I think Bhutanese people realised that we as a small nation were under threat and that we must all come together to achieve this goal.

CO: So you mentioned love of king, but also love of public health, right? Because you have people who believe in vaccinations. What would you say to those in countries like mine, Canada, places where people are hesitant? They're saying, "Well, I don't really know if I'm going to get the vaccine." What do you think people in Bhutan would like to tell them about their experience is?

DASHO DECHEN WANGMO: I think for us another element is also trust and faith in the health institution. If you look at our immunisation coverage for children, it's 97 percent. And many people would know the benefit of immunisation because at one point we all have children dying, and then suddenly with immunisation we were not losing young children to preventable diseases. So people have seen through the introduction of many immunisations and many vaccines in the past, the benefit of vaccines. So this has over the years built the trust and confidence of the people in the health system, especially the primary health care system.

CO: So what lessons do you think the rest of the world can learn from Bhutan?

DASHO DECHEN WANGMO: I think it's solidarity and collectiveness, that it is everybody's responsibility. And as Dr. Tedros mentioned, no one is safe unless everyone is safe. And I think really coming together for humanity. I think it's very important leaving our differences aside and trying to help the most vulnerable. Yes, we completed our immunisation program -- vaccination program in a week's time. But after the first week, we had a program designed to reach the unreached -- so people who had severe disabilities, who couldn't go out of the house. We provided door-to-door services for these vulnerable populations. Making sure that these services reach them. Even at the global level, I think this is where I think the solidarity comes in, in terms of the richer countries sort of helping the poorer countries get through this. And also within the country themselves, having really a collective effort to break the chain of transmission.

CO: Just finally, maybe a bit of politics. You got the vaccine from India, which is producing this AstraZeneca vaccine or a version of it. India hasn't vaccinated its own population anywhere near to the degree that you have in Bhutan. Why do you think India provided you with so much vaccine?

DASHO DECHEN WANGMO: I think not just to Bhutan. I think India provided vaccine to many other countries, and it's also an expression of global solidarity. So this is really an exemplary expression of solidarity, regional solidarity.

CO: But isn't it also the case that India would like to increase its influence in Bhutan and especially since China is trying to spread its influence in your country? Do you think that that's part of the reason why India was so keen to help?

DASHO DECHEN WANGMO: No. Like i said earlier, it's really India's generosity and not just towards Bhutan, but towards many countries in the world. And to us, leaving politics aside, this is truly a commendable humanitarian gesture I must say.

CO: Well, congratulations on your success Minister Wangmo. Thank you for speaking with us.

DASHO DECHEN WANGMO: Thank you. Thank you. And it's all my pleasure. Thank you.

CH: Dasho Dechen Wangmo is the Minister of Health for Bhutan, which has vaccinated 93 percent of its adult population against COVID-19. We reached her in Thimphu.

Michel Louvain

[MUSIC: Michel Louvain singing "Ay! Mourir pour toi]

CH: This is what people waiting for the Quebec premier to speak heard this morning, the crooning of Michel Louvain. In honour of the eternal Quebec heartthrob who died yesterday at the age of 83. Mr. Louvain got his start singing in church halls in the 1950s, and it wasn't long before his love songs and his good looks earned him the devotion of young fans for whom he was like a one-man Beatles. He would go on to inspire adoration for six decades on stage and as a TV host. In 2012, Michel Louvain spoke about his career and those adoring fans just before he was set to perform in his hometown of Thetford Mines.

MICHEL LOUVAIN: [SOUNDCLIP: Before I sang, I was doing the window for a big store. I used to put a drape in the window and people used to knock in the window, said, when are we going to see what you're doing? Sometimes I was taking three or four days. I did that for three years in Thetford Mines and it's what's called a settler hardware store -- a big hardware store. And I was doing that. I had good ideas, but it's singing that was in my mind. I was singing the weekend in Thetford Mines for weddings and things like that. And one day when I told the owner of the hardware store, I'm quitting, I'm going to Sherbrooke to become a singer. He said, Oh, I've been waiting a long time for that, for you to come and say, I'm quitting, I want to do my singing career. Because I was always singing in the store [chuckles]. But that's my career. I'm happy.

JACQUIE CZERNIN: Oh that's just the beginning. Because 1957 Sherbrooke and the girls. Because you were on television.

MICHEL LOUVAIN: I was 20 -- could you imagine? Time flies eh? This year is my 55th anniversary. I'm starting to think about my 60th in four years and a half. And we're planning -- but I hope God will give me the health to be there and celebrate my 60th. But there's a lot of beautiful things happening to me. Sometimes I'm saying to myself, why me? Because I saw many singers and they're not there and they didn't do as long as me. And sometimes I say, why me? Why is it still going strong? II did a TV show yesterday andt the woman was asking me -- well, it's like a couple, they are married since 55 years and it goes well. Well me, I'm married with my public and it goes well since 55 years. It's like a good marriage. [Laughs]

JACQUIE CZERNIN: These women talk about -- they've got a photograph of their husband in their bedroom and they have a photograph of you.

MICHEL LOUVAIN: I know. Am I lucky that the husbands are not jealous? Because it could be dangerous for me after this show we never know. [Laughter]]

CH: That was Quebec singer Michel Louvain speaking with Jacquie Czernin on the CBC's Breakaway in 2012.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Part 3: Encore Maria Campbell

Encore Maria Campbell

CH: A lifetime achievement award isn't usually about a literal lifetime of achievement. Even the most prolific and celebrated actors, artists, and writers typically spend their childhoods as children -- more preoccupied with developing themselves than their portfolios. But Maria Campbell never really had that luxury. The celebrated Metis writer was born in 1940 in what was known as a road allowance community in Saskatchewan. And from her earliest days, her life was filled with hardship, poverty, racism, the unthinkable task of co-parenting her seven younger siblings after their mother died. And the horror of one day in particular when Ms. Campbell was a teenager and an RCMP officer raped her. That attack and its fallout are amongst the many traumas documented in Mrs. Campbell's memoir Halfbreed, which also, I should mention, documents episodes of joy and humour. Halfbreed is one of an impressive collection of books and plays that have netted her the Saskatchewan Lieutenant Governor's Lifetime Achievement Award for 2021. But until recently, the pages that told that particular terrible part of Maria's story weren't included in the manuscript. They were excised just before its publication. But the book's publisher, McClelland and Stewart, restored those pages in a new edition published in 2019, which was when Maria Campbell joined Carol in the As It Happened studio for a feature conversation.

CO: Maria Campbell, welcome to the As It Happens studio.

MARIA CAMPBELL: Thank you.

CO: This new version — complete version now — of your memoir, what is it like for you to see that now restored?

MC: I feel like it's finished now — because it never felt finished for me. I always felt like there was a part, well, there was a part of it that was missing, and that it didn't tell the complete story. And with that piece missing, it was like I just ended up on the street because there was nothing else to do — which is really not the case.

CO: How did those pages — how did that part of the book — get excised, do you know?

MC: Well, Jack promised me…

CO: Jack McClelland of McClelland and Stewart.

MC: Yeah. You know, he came to me and said that they had to take it out. And I said no, if it was coming out, then I wouldn't publish. So he told me that that it would be left there. And I believed that it was there until I got the box of books we get. You know, I got six copies of the book when it was released. And that was the first place I looked, and it was pulled. And I called him, and he said he couldn't do it. That he couldn't, you know, that they would have stopped everything.

CO: Well, we've seen correspondence now that he said he believed that the RCMP would seek an injunction if you described the rape you suffered at the hands of an officer. And then the book will be pulled altogether. And I guess he didn't want to put you through that.

MC: And he also told me that I would probably get hauled through courts, and it would be all over the paper. And I was angry with him at the time, but I understood, you know, later why he did it. But for me, I felt like I had been really betrayed. And that the whole story wasn’t there. Jack was a good teacher. He told me that the book would be a bestseller.

CO: And it was.

MC: And it was. He also told me that it was a way for me to be able to tell the country of Indigenous people. And, you know, because really that was why I was publishing it. And that, you know, anything else I did after that was entirely up to me. That would open the door for me. And it did to that.

CO: But, at the same time, the correspondence suggests that he believes that if you had published this part, or he had put that in, the book never would have made it. Because in those days, you could get an injunction — as he believed the police would.

MC: And he believed that. I know that he believed that.

CO: Because he believed you. He said in the letters, I believe her. I don't have any doubt that she was raped by these police.

MC: I never doubted that he believed me. I just felt that he must have known that he was going to take it out when he told me he was leaving it in. And I trusted him.

CO: The pages were discovered, and we've interviewed Deanna Reder — who is one of the researchers who are trying to dig through the archives, the McClelland and Stewart archives, because they knew these pages had been there. You thought that there's no way that the original manuscript with those pages still existed.

MC: I was really naïve. I didn't understand about hanging onto your paper, or anything else. And so when I finished, Diane Woodman was my editor. And when I had all this paper, and I said, what do I do with this now? And she said well, we can just throw it all in the garbage. So we put it in the garbage bin behind her house, so all of my stuff was gone. So then I asked Jack for a copy of the manuscript. So he sent me a copy, but it was the copy without pages. I never saw the red marks or anything until I saw Deanna’s copy.

CO: And Deanna, and her research partner Alex Shield, when they describe how they found them, Alex was in the archives, and she phones Deanna, and she whispers, and says I found them. I found the pages. They're here with a big red X through them. What was that like for you to see those pages?

MC: I felt very relieved. But it was also, you know, kind of like digging up… [breaking down] Excuse me.

CO: No, it's fine.

MC: That happened, you know, a long, long time ago. And after a couple of years after the book was published, I just let it go. And that was what I did. I let it go. So when I saw it again. And it wasn't the rape, and, you know, all of that stuff. It was my kids that went through a lot when the book first came out. And my father didn't know about it until I told him before the book came out — because I wanted him to know. And I brought the manuscript to him. So I didn't, you know, all of that was all opened up again. So it was so hard.

CO: Because we're talking about 45 years after you published those pages. And it's in your voice. The thing that's most striking about this book, Halfbreed, is the youthfulness of your voice, and describing what had happened to you, and your grandmother being with you, and being told it there's no point in pursuing this, they will never believe a halfbreed in court.

MC: And it's not that they wouldn't have believed. It just wasn't important. But that wasn't what was hard for me when I saw it again last year. It was just the memory of telling my father, you know, exposing my family to goodness knows what — because there was a lot of fear back then when the book was published. When we thought that it was going to be left in, you know? But even today, it's, you know, I don't know what can happen. Indigenous people have great fear of the police. It's just scary.

CO: But you wanted this book, you wanted those pages restored. Because without those pages, so much doesn't make sense, what happened to you, it's key.

MC: And it wasn't even just me. I mean, I'm not the only person that's had this happen to. It's happened to lots of women. And, in fact, I think about a week or two after they found those missing pages. I remember turning the national news on, and there was a young girl that had been interrogated by the RCMP, and she had been raped, or she had been sexually molested. That was last fall or last summer. And so it's never stopped. And once this came out, I ended up with, you know, I was contacted by so many women that said well, this happened to us too. It happened to me as well. And all at the same thing. There was this fear of not talking about it. You can't talk about it because the fear is there. It's always been there. There's been a fear of the police.

CO: What does it tell you, having those pages restored, what do you think that explains about what happened to you in your life?

MC: I think what it explains is that maybe life would have been different for me if that hadn't happened. You know, I certainly believe it would have been different. There's always a reason why people end up in in that kind of situation. And I was, you know, I was like any 14-year-old kid. I had lots of dreams, and you know poverty doesn't kill your dreams.

CO: But rape kills your childhood, doesn't it?

MC: It kills your childhood. It kills everything — certainly destroyed mine. And it destroyed my brother’s.

CO: You're one brother saw this happen.

MC: Yeah.

CO: Little kid.

MC: Yeah.

CO: And you couldn't tell your father because…

MC: My father probably would have killed somebody. [chuckling] That was too scary. That was even more scary to think of that.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens, and I am in studio with Maria Campbell. She is a Metis author, a playwright, an elder. And her book Halfbreed has just had its full text restored — more than four decades after it was published. And, Maria, I just want to say that, I mean, there is a lot of trauma in this what we're talking about. The rape and in the book has been restored. But what strikes me about this book is that there is a lot of joy. When you're a girl, when you're growing up, the descriptions of the parties, and the dances, of your family life, of what it was like with your mom. There are laugh out loud moments. People have to know that this is a complete, rich story that has this turn in it. What do you want people to know about your child hood as a Metis?

MC: Well, that's what I want them to know. And I think that's been the hardest throughout my, you know, since the book was published is that so many people think that I had such a hard life. You know, we were poor, but our people are really strong. They're very joyful people. Well, we laugh through everything. We sing and dance through everything. And, you know, when I look at my own community, there are all of the stuff that happened in that community and to our people, we have some amazing people that have come out of there.

CO: And the strong sense of family and society and just we are here, we are rooted no matter what. And you're dealing with a double whammy of the colonial laws that restricted your lives, plus the fact that as Indigenous people, in the book this is 1970s, you call them “Indians” and “Metis” or “Halfbreeds”. But that the Indigenous people don't regard the Metis as being one of them either. So you're dealing with this double whammy all the time, aren't you?

MC: Yeah. That's always been our story, or part of our history. There's a word in our language which is to do with family and kinship, but it's a much bigger word than that. And that certainly was something that really held us together — and still does. You know, our people still are in contact with each other all the time. We visit people. And our communities are, you know, scattered. But even with all of the, you know, people being displaced so many times, being chased out so many times, it didn't matter where we went, it was like people moved in groups, and then you'd all be together. So while it may be as hard as it was being in that place, it was also our strength.

CO: My favorite character is Cheechum — and your Cheecum. Can you tell us who she is, and why she was so important to you?

MC: She was my great grandmother, and I was her first great grandchild. I'm fluent in my language and in my culture because of her insistence that whatever she could pass on to me, she did. She was very old, but she was also very young. She was very politically astute. She would be, you know, today, we would call her an activist — somebody who really believed in change. No matter what happened, you always work toward change. You don't take this, you know, without fighting back. She was also really independent. And so that's something that's really strong in our family is that independence. As long as we’ve got each other, we don't need anything else.

CO: But she's also this tremendous bridge into history, isn't she? Because you're growing up in the 1940s and ‘50s…

MC: And she was a part of the history.

CO: Of Louis Riel’s era.

MC: Of Louis Riel’s era.

CO: So you start the book describing this is where it comes from, and the spirit of rebellion, the spirit of resistance. And Cheechum is the continuation, so you bring that in, that history into the present day. This is where it comes from, don't you?

MC: And she is also a part of the signing of Treaty Six. that was her family. Her family was the chief that signed the Treaty, so she came from both sides of those places. And she treasured them. She always said we can live in both in our Metis place and our Cree place. And that was hard when I was young, but it's not that difficult anymore. I think once you understand about government policies, and how colonisation works to divide people, then, you know, it's not difficult anymore because then you know it's not people just being cruel.

CO: It's policies.

MC: Policies that forces that kind of thing.

CO: Poverty, everything you're describing is rooted in that, I mean, the deck was stacked against you. I mean, whatever you try to do, you always are turning up confronting this. And we cover the story of what's happening with the apprehension of children, of Indigenous children, in Saskatchewan. Well, throughout Canada, but Saskatchewan it's still going on.

MC: And Manitoba.

CO: And the children are still being taken from their families. And what was so striking about reading this book is for you to describe when you, as a teenager who are trying to keep your family together after your mother has died, and they come for your brothers and sisters. You did everything you could to try and keep that from happening. And there is a moment that station wagon, the faces in the window as they drove away, and the trauma of that. What does that tell us about the constant fear that Indigenous people were living under.

MC: Well, it’s the same fear that people live under every day today. We have so many children in care that's frightening. You know, like what's going to happen? At least my generation and my siblings had a memory of a grounded place. But children, you know, there's so much trauma and so much just pain all over. People are really broken. Their souls are hurting. And how do you fix that? And children grow up in that, and there's generations of it. You know, we have lots of amazing, wonderful things that happen, you know? I can't afford to go out and buy all the books that are written by Indigenous people today. You know, where at one time, I could. I can't keep track of all of the young people who are graduating with PhDs, and starting to get places of authority jobs and places of authority. But for every single time that happens, it's like we've lost another hundred kids for that. It’s just huge. And what can we do, you know? How long does that have to happen? How many children do we have to give up? And how many women have to die in order for us to be able to, you know? And now, I'm talking in general about Indigenous people because when they come to pick the children up, they don't ask them for status numbers. You know, they just pick them up.

CO: You were raising children of your own, as a teenager, you were starting to have your babies. And 1950s, and you describe in Halfbreed how you came to hit rock bottom. That everything was up against you. You had you left home, ended up in Vancouver. You ended up dealing with drugs.

MC: Not very nice people [laughing]

CO: Not very nice people, in fact, frightening people. There’s several stories of people you had associated with you later knew they were in prison, or dead. And you were just a young woman, you just started your teens, or into your teens, but trying to raise kids. So what was the help? What did you need? Because obviously, you didn't get anything that you needed in order to get you through that.

MC: Well, there was nothing for women. I mean, it was hard enough for poor, non-Indigenous women. There was absolutely nothing for Indigenous women. You know, there were places for men to stay because they were run by missions, but there was nothing for women. And if you were women on the street, you know, missions were not interested in helping you. You were just a bad person. And there was no place to go.

CO: What brought you out of that?

MC: My great grandmother.

CO: Cheechum.

MC: Yeah, just me laying there one day after I'd tried to commit suicide over and over again. Just me waking up, and she's sitting with me, and she's telling me you don't have to be here. You don’t have to be here. You have choices. You can leave here. And, you know, I didn't know where to go or what to do. But I knew of somebody who had quit, and I went to see her.

CO: Quit drugs. It's heroin we're talking about.

MC: Yeah, and she helped me with it.

CO: You’re listening to As It Happens, and I have author Maria Campbell in the studio with me to talk about the republication of her remarkable book called Halfbreed. And, Maria, I'm just wondering now that this book has been restored with the pages that were missing, the crucial description of what happened to you at the hands of those Mounties, at the same time, it's now out at a time when maybe we have more context, I mean, with the Truth and Reconciliation hearings with the Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls testimonies, now, we have — I have — all kinds of knowledge that I wouldn't have had in the ‘70s if I had read this book at that time. Do you feel that that maybe just something happened here that actually worked out? That the fact that this book is now back out at a time when we really need it?

MC: Well, I don't believe that things just happen. It was just like I started writing. I never had any intentions of writing. I didn't know anything about writing. I had an old lady. She was a Quaker lady, who gave me a journal and a pen because I couldn't talk. I just couldn't speak to people about anything. And she gave it to me Monday, and said you’re going to have to get rid of some of this stuff. That's how I ended up with all of the pages. You know, I worked in radio. I did radio stuff. I, you know, produced radio. All of those things are, you know, what works — which is the best way to be able to get this information out if it's stories, or if it's in a song, if it's to get people together to do theatre. I really believe in collectives and people working together because that was how I grew up. You know, we never cut up our meat and dried it all by ourselves. It was a community event. People did it together. And so I believe in collectives, and I like working with people. I've just been in the city, and we've just finished doing a reading of a play that was a big collective. We met with other women who had been, you know, who had gone through very similar kinds of lives then. And we said okay, if we could do our own inquiry, what is the story we would want to tell, you know? I wasn't happy with the story that was going to be told. I mean, inquiries and inquiry, we have so many recommendations. All we need to do is look at those recommendations. We don't need to spend millions of dollars coming up with new ones because they're the same. There's poverty, there's violence, there's, you know, residential school. All of it, it’s the same thing over and over again. So I wasn't happy with where the inquiry was going.

CO: The Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women.

MC: The Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, I mean, I appreciate the work they did. I mean, you know, all of that. But it's just recommendations. And, in the end, you know, the word genocide…

CO: When they said that they used the word genocide.

MC: Yeah. And so I was frustrated. I just felt like the women who were being murdered, and the women who were on the street, women who are living in crisis, nobody was talking to them. They're the ones who are who are out there facing that every day. And there's all kinds of creative ways that you can educate people. And when you have that kind of money, you certainly should be able to come up with a few ideas when you have so many creative people around. Give people money and they'll do what they're supposed to do.

CO: So you think it was a lost opportunity to educate people about what was going on?

MC: Yeah, I believe it was. I hate to say that. But for me, changes is through arts, change is through storytelling, it's through singing songs, it's people visiting each other and talking, it's theatre, it's all of those things.

CO: The very end of Halfbreed the book when you published it in 1973, it says I believe that one day very soon people will set aside their differences and come together as one. Maybe not because we love one another, but because we will need each other to survive. And then together, we will fight our common enemies. Change will come because this time we won't give up, and there is growing evidence of that today. This is early 1970s.

MC: Yeah, and there's growing evidence. I mean, there's real visual evidence of that today, when you see all of the kids out protesting the kinds of things that are happening to the earth.

CO: So do you feel more optimistic? I mean, this is very optimistic at a time when we didn't have much reason to be optimistic. [chuckling] Now, do these words really resonate in a way they didn't?

MC: Oh yeah, they resonate. I mean, there's still lots of work to be done. And it's not just us as Indigenous people. It's all of us are going to have to work together. We got to think about our great grandchildren. Like, I never liked the word settler because it’s just so clearly us than them. But I think it's important for settlers to realize that they didn't do this. They weren't the people coming to this country looking for resources. There's always a difference. And as long as we categorize ourselves like that, we can't change — because there's either anger or guilt or whatever. The settler came here carrying the same kind of baggage, the same policies were practiced on them, you know? I always tell people, you know, people don't leave their country because they're happy. You don't leave your homeland because everything is great, and you know, oh gosh, you know 200-thousand of us or whatever are going to immigrate because everything is great at home. People don't do that. You know, I have Scottish ancestors. And when I started reading about the kinds of things that drove them out of their country, and they ended up here, I thought well, what's the difference? It was the same policies that were used on them. The same policies were used on the Irish. They're used in Africa and all of those countries. But somehow, when people end up here, and they’ve found the good life, they end up using same kinds of tools.

CO: So what gives you hope then?

MC: What gives me hope are kids — because they're not thinking like that. They're thinking about what's happening to our earth, what's happening to our land, what's happening to our water? Young people give me hope.

CO: Maria Campbell, It is extraordinary to speak with you, and to read this book. It will mean a lot to many people now that we can see it again in its entirety. And I thank you so much for coming in.

MC: Thank you

CH: Maria Campbell is a Metis writer, playwright, and elder. Her memoir, Halfbreed, was published in 1973 and reissued in 2019 by McClelland and Stewart. Ms. Campbell spoke with Carol in the As It Happens studio that fall. For more on this story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

April 15, 2021 Episode Transcript

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