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The AIH Transcript for January 13, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight...

CO: Too much to bear. People in Iran continue to take to the streets after their government admitted to shooting down a passenger plane. Our guest, a Canadian in Tehran, says the latest protests indicate that Iranians are fed up.

CH: Demanding answers. Canada's Transport Minister says he's determined that a full investigation of the Ukrainian airlines disaster will find answers, and Canada will hold Iran to its promises.

CO: Getting this story straight. According to the US President, Iranian General Qasem Soleimani represented a clear and present danger to Americans -- but Democrats continue to question the shifting rationale for his killing.

CH: Scene change. A Montreal-based filmmaker who wanted to challenge negative portrayals of Muslims and Arabs in movies celebrates an Oscar nomination for her short film, "Brotherhood."

CO: Going all out. It took almost a day and a half of walking, but a South Carolina man paralyzed from the waist down now holds the record for the fastest time completing a marathon in a robotic exoskeleton suit.

CH: And the artful dosh-ers. After years, the mystery as to who has been leaving bags of cash around a UK town for people to find has been solved after two anonymous philanthropists reveal themselves to authorities. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that shows you the money.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Marc Garneau says Canada is demanding a strong role in the Flight PS752 investigation

Iran families and protest

Guest: Doctor

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd chanting]

CH: Thousands of protesters in Tehran demanding that Iran's Supreme Leader not just resign, but face trial. And that was one of the tamer slogans chanted this weekend. Others went further calling for the death of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. The furious reaction came just hours after Iran's Revolutionary Guard admitted to shooting down a Ukrainian airlines flight last week, killing 176 people. 57 Canadians among them. Now, the families of those victims face the daunting task of claiming the bodies of their loved ones and organizing funerals. And those families say Iran is not making that process easy. We reached an Iranian-Canadian doctor who knew six passengers on that plane. Because he fears for his safety in Iran and risks being targeted by the Iranian regime, we're protecting his identity. We've reached him in Tehran.

CO: Doctor, what do you think the message is that protesters are trying to send to the Iranian regime right now?

DOCTOR: The main theme of the message is anger. I was thinking this is like a mass PTSD in the greatest scale at least in our contemporary history. People are not sad or in disbelief. They are very angry.

CO: We saw what happened a few months ago when there were protests and there were as many as 1,500 people killed by authorities to stop those protests. Again, we're seeing the regime shut down the Internet to stop communications there. What is it about this shooting down of this civilian aircraft with all these people on -- what is it about that that has turn people out into the streets this time, which is an enormous risk for them?

DOCTOR: They didn't get a good answer for what happened because we understand that they tried to hide this. If there wasn't, you know, Canadian citizens involved things would have been different. So people understand this, and that makes them very angry. They feel that they don't have anything to lose anymore. No one came out to say we are sorry. No one came out to talk to the people -- to say that, yeah, this is exactly what happened and we are sorry and this wasn't intentional. And we see and we get the news about what Justin Trudeau did.

CO: What news did they get about what Justin Trudeau did? What was that news?

DOCTOR: Justin Trudeau is like this is not fake, that someone is really sorry about this. And our leader, they don't care.

CO: And for you personally, I mean there's a lot here for you because you're both Iranian and Canadian. You know people who were on that plane -- who were killed. So how are you feeling emotionally about this? Because this is your country and Canada's your country too.

DOCTOR: To be honest with you, since about nine years ago when I came to Canada I never felt, you know, Canadian. I was thinking that, yeah we are immigrant and the society accepted us but not as a real Canadian. But everything changed in the last week -- last few days -- after what we saw from the Canadian government and from the people in Canada. They really treated us like Canadians. And you know I love this country but I feel that it does not belong to me anymore. Not anymore.

CO: You are there though, and you know what people are going through. We know that people are going from Canada to Iran to find out, to claim the bodies of their loved ones, to meet with their families, to organize funerals. But what kinds of experiences are families in Tehran having with that process? We have heard some stories about what the regime, what the authorities are doing to people if they speak to the international media. What are you hearing?

DOCTOR: Yeah. There are rumors about this that they contacted families not to talk to like the others. I mean they're very sensitive about, you know, Iranian press out of country, which are mostly like oppositions. So they're very concerned about this all. I've heard that they asked families not to talk to them and even they asked them, some of them, to sign some kind of petition to support what they did. And this is very sad.

CO: These are families who have just lost loved ones, who were was shot down in a plane by the military forces of Iran. So now they're being told, go along with us. Here's the script. How are they feeling about that?

DOCTOR: This is a kind of tactic. This is a kind of aggressive tactic. They don't go back. They come forward, you see. Because now the families should claim things from them, but they don't stand somber so that people come and ask and question them. They go to the families and then they try that they question. And the tactic is an aggressive tactic. So that the families get puzzled and they don't know their normal action. This is same tactic that they use and this have been very successful for them.

CO: How successful have the families been in even recovering the remains of their loved ones? We've heard some stories that that's been difficult, if not impossible.

DOCTOR: Yeah. I don't know if you've seen the footage from the scene. I mean, it's almost impossible to you know get them together. But I've heard that about 50, or something like that, corpses had been got together. I mean I'm not sure about the number, but it's very difficult because...

CO: You mean the remains are not intact. And so they can't deliver.

DOCTOR: Exactly. Not intact at all.

CO: You know that Iran does not recognize you as a Canadian. They don't recognize dual citizenship.

DOCTOR: No they don't.

CO: We are not giving your name or giving any details that could identify you. So what concerns do you have right now? I mean, you're trying to get home to Canada soon. So what are your worries?

DOCTOR: One of the concern is that any time you come to Iran, even though we know that a majority of us we are not political activists. But any time that we come, we decide to come back to Iran, we are scared that our passports get confiscated at arrival because there is no system and no law. So they might get you by mistake or they might, you know, have something in their mind to get some hostages. So you don't know what's going to happen. And that gets more scary when you have done something. So something that they don't like.

CO: Speaking as you are, even though anonymous, you are doing something they might not like.

DOCTOR: Exactly.

CO: Even though you're a Canadian doctor going home from having a visit, you still might not be able to do that.

DOCTOR: Exactly. Yeah. That's very scary. But when you pass certain lines, you don't feel anything anymore. You pass the line of fear. So you might do something that in the normal situation in a lawful country, you don't do.

CO: Has this plane crash made you cross the line?

DOCTOR: I think so. We are all very angry. Very angry.

CO: Doctor we'll leave it there. I hope you're safe. We will keep an eye out. And I appreciate speaking with you so much. Thank you.

DOCTOR: Thank you so much.

CH: We reached an Iranian-Canadian doctor in Tehran. We are withholding his identity out of fears for his safety.

Iran minister

Guest: Marc Garneau

CH: Marc Garneau is Canada's Minister of Transport. We reached him this afternoon in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Garneau we've just spoken with an Iranian-Canadian doctor in Tehran who lost friends in the crash. And he has told us he knows families who are trying to recover the remains of their loved ones and that they're getting some pressure not to speak against the regime. And now he's worried that he might even have problems when he tries to leave Iran to return to Canada. So what can you do to help people who are faced with those kinds of pressures?

MARC GARNEAU: Well, we have a team of consular officials. There are 12 Canadians now that are coming, that will be in Tehran by the end of the day. And it is precisely for that kind of reason that they are there. And it's to assist with the families of the victims and to ensure that they will have access. And we as a government will be able to address their needs. So that is why those 12 people will be interfacing with Iranian officials to make sure that we are able to satisfy the families of those victims. And for those who may be in the country at the moment and who are seeking advice to leave, of course, we will offer our normal consular services to help them with respect to that.

CO: How would you describe the cooperation that your government, Canada, is getting from the Iranian government right now?

MG: Well, I would say that they, first of all, admitted that they downed that airplane. That is a first step, but only a first step. The Prime Minister spoke to President Rouhani, pointed out very very clearly that we need their full cooperation on a number of areas. One that you've just brought up, which is concerning the repatriation of the remains and that this should be done in an expeditious manner and fully respectful of the families of the victims. Secondly, that Canada was going to insist on playing a role with respect to the comprehensive investigation of what happened on this particular flight. This is something that we owe to those families and we are going to make sure that that is respected. And the indications we have had initially from Iran are that they are willing to cooperate. But the proof will be in the pudding. So we'll see how this evolves in the coming days.

CO: And you know that in Iran, there are different silos of power and they don't necessarily coordinate or if at all. And that you may have one working with the government, with Mr. Rouhani's government, but they may have no influence or even connection, an important connection, with the answers from the other silos of power. So how do you know you're even talking to the right people?

MG: Well, you're right. And this is one of the things that remains to be seen. That's why we are going to be watching this very carefully. And that's why we're not jumping to the conclusion that everything is going to operate smoothly. But we will, and I can assure you of this, make sure that we are going to achieve our objectives, which is to take care of what the families want, which is to bring the remains back to Canada and to have full cooperation with respect to the investigation. And if we do run into roadblocks along the way, because as you point out perhaps there isn't a full coordination between different organizations in Iran, we will be pointing that out extremely forcefully and to make sure that we resolve that.

CO: Will you be able to look at the data from the black box? Will TSB be able to do that?

MG: Well, we have been told that the Transportation Safety Board, Kathy Fox, just spoke at a press conference earlier today and said that Iran has agreed that Canada under normal circumstances because we are a country that had nationals on board we have observer status, but it appears that they are going to go out of their way -- Iran has said this and we'll see if that happens to allow us to look at the wreckage, but also to be present for the download and the analysis of the data. So this is going further than would normally be prescribed in International Civil Aviation Organization's Annex 13 rules which govern this kind of situation.

CO: Question that comes to a different agencies, why was the plane even in the air? Who authorized that? Why was there no shut down of civilian flights in a theater that was seeing that level of volatility?

MG: So that's one of the big questions that we have. And just for your listeners, the rule is that it is the country in which the flying activity is occurring that has full control over its airspace. So it's an extremely important question, one that is very much on our minds as to why the airport was operating as though nothing was amiss. There were several flights that took off before the Ukrainian Flight 752 and there were many more that took off afterwards. So this is one of the questions that we will be looking for answers to.

CO: There is one theory that the reason why they're allowing -- that Iran was allowing -- these flights to take off because they were concerned that the United States might retaliate against their strikes on Iraq and that perhaps they're letting these civilian crafts fly as a form of human shield. What do you say to that?

MG: Well, I'm not going to speculate. I have heard that theory as well, and I've heard a couple of others. And we're going to get to the bottom and find out what the truth is. It can be a number of different things. And that is something that we need to find out.

CO: And what reviews need to be done about having a country with full control over who flies out of their airspace -- is that really something that will continue going forward, given what we've seen happens in this particular instance?

MG: Well, it's very important that countries have sovereignty over their airspace. And, of course, they should always be mindful of when to close that airspace in case there could be some unusual activity or something dangerous happening there. And also airlines -- there's nothing that prevents airlines from making their own decisions if based on their own judgment. But the control of the airspace is the responsibility of the country where that airspace is located.

CO: Minister Garneau thank you.

MG: You're welcome.

CH: Marc Garneau is Canada's Minister of Transport. We reached him in Ottawa earlier today. And you can find more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Nuclear Emergency Alert

CH: Yesterday, many Ontarians got a Sunday morning wakeup call that was like multiple shots of espresso poured over their heads. Just before 7:30 am, an emergency alert sounded on smartphones, warning of an incident at the Pickering Nuclear Generating Station, 32-kilometres northeast of Toronto. Not so reassuringly, it insisted that there had been, quote, "no abnormal release of radioactivity." It wasn't until about 40 minutes later that a second alert was sent out explaining that the first had been a mistake. All was well at the nuclear plant. Today on CBC Toronto's "Metro Morning" host Piya Chattopadhyay spoke with Pickering Mayor Dave Ryan about the false alarm.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVE RYAN: I was up and drinking my coffee, but it was still quite a shock.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Okay, so when you saw that initial one, you thought what?

DAVE RYAN: Well, I was very surprised because I would have expected that I would have had a call from one of my local people before the actual alert went out. Nothing occurred in that regard. We also have a public siren alerting system in of an emergency such as suggested. Those alarms would have sounded as well. So felt somewhat bewildered. And then within a very few minutes, I did get a phone call from our fire chief saying he'd been in touch with the plant and there was absolutely nothing going on. I think the general sense from the people in Pickering, certainly from the interviews that had been done and the conversations I've had, people are comfortable with the plant. As you say, we live here, we know it's here, it operates safely. And they were quite incredulous when the alarm went off. A number of people just said, well you know I knew it wasn't real, I just waited to find out what was going on.

CH: That was Pickering, Ontario Mayor Dave Ryan speaking with "Metro Morning" host Piya Chattopadhyay about the nuclear emergency alert that was mistakenly sent to many Ontarians yesterday.

[Music]

Exoskeleton marathon

Guest: Adam Gorlitsky

CH: Taking over 30 hours to run a marathon wouldn't normally be seen as the greatest achievement. But for Adam Gorlitsky of South Carolina, it was a world record breaking performance. Mr. Gorlitsky is paralyzed from the waist down and he ran the Charleston Marathon in a robotic exoskeleton suit. We reached Adam Gorlitsky at home in Charleston, South Carolina.

CO: Adam, first of all, big congratulations.

ADAM GORLITSKY: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CO: Can you take us to that moment on Saturday morning when you crossed the finish line and tell us how you felt?

AG: Oh, man. You know, I didn't get any sleep. I didn't take one sleep break. I mean, literally, my mind and my body were completely just worn out.

CO: Well 33 hours, right? You started Thursday night. 33 hours you did this.

AG: I'd say closer to 34. So 33 hours and 50 minutes.

CO: Can you tell us about this exoskeleton suit that you wore for this and how it works?

AG: Yeah it's an amazing piece of technology. So I'm paralyzed from the waist down with a spinal cord injury. So this ReWalk Robotic Exoskeleton allows me to stand up and walk. I described this exoskeleton like it's a lower half of a Terminator suit. Have you ever seen the movie Terminator?

CO: [Chuckles] Yes.

AG: It really is like the lower half of a Terminator suit. I transfer out of my wheelchair into the exoskeleton. I strap in. And then on my right hand wrist, I wear this remote controlled watch. That's almost like the remote controlled brain of the exoskeleton. It has three settings: sit, stand, and walk. When I hit a button and put it into walk mode, I then tap forward with each arm crutch and I kind of move my hips and abdominal muscles side to side. And then when I do that, there's a sensor in each hip of the exoskeleton that picks up that movement in my abs and hips. The exoskeleton then physically moves my leg for me.

CO: Wow.

AG: So it's like man meets machine. It's an incredible abdominal and core workout.

CO: [Laughs] I'm sure. But is there a setting on that remote that's for running a marathon?

AG: [Chuckles] Well, technically not. You know I don't think the inventor of this exoskeleton -- I don't think he ever envisioned somebody using this for marathons.

CO: You mentioned that you are paralyzed from the waist down from a spinal cord injury. And you were a runner before that. What happened that caused your injury?

AG: Yeah. I'm 33 years old. So when I was 19, I was driving back home from college and I fell asleep at the wheel while I was driving. I was in a car accident and broke my back. Yeah. And suffered a spinal cord injury, so I'm paralyzed from my belly button down.

CO: Did you ever think you'd be able to do something like you did on this weekend?

AG: I mean I guess before this exoskeleton, I mean I wouldn't have even consider walking a marathon.

CO: So what does it mean to you that you were able to achieve this?

AG: It's obviously a great sense of personal achievement. I am the founder and executive director of a non-profit called I Got Legs and we help to improve the lives of athletes with physical challenges. So, you know, just about a day and a half removed from, you know, finishing this marathon, I think ultimately what it means to me going forward is I would love to start getting more people using exoskeletons. Yeah.

CO: Was there a moment during this time from those nearly 34 hours of this marathon -- what was the low point? Was there a point when you thought, I don't think I can do this?

AG: Yeah. I mean right around miles 24. So the last 2.2 miles. Those were excruciating. I mean I was literally having like micro blackouts like while walking. You know where I would all of a sudden lose consciousness for like 1 to 3 seconds. And I'll be like, "Oh my God, I just blacked out."

CO: How are you feeling physically today?

AG: Yeah, I'm surprisingly feeling pretty good. Both of my wrists are still pretty numb.

CO: Just so people understand this is because of these crutches that you're using as well, right?

AG: Yes. I do two arm crutches. And the longer that I walk, my posture starts to break down when I'm walking. But other than that, like I'm in pretty good spirits.

CO: So you've stolen this record. You've taken this record from a British man who had finished the London Marathon in 36 hours and 46 minutes. So not confirmed by Guinness World Records yet, but that's what you've done. So what's next for you?

AG: It's just an amazing feeling to be able to stand up and walk with people. But then to be able to race against other people with spinal cord injuries would be so cool.

CO: You've thrown down the challenge Adam.

AG: [Chuckles] I hope so.

CO: It's great to talk to you. And again, congratulations.

AG: Thank you so much.

CH: Adam Gorlitsky just broke the world record for running a marathon in an exoskeleton suit. He spoke with us from Charleston, South Carolina. And you can find more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Sound of the Day: Taliabu Grasshopper Warbler

CH: They're not all fancy, but they are all new to us at least. In the largest discovery of its kind in more than a century, researchers have found 10 new species of birds all off the coast of Sulawesi, Indonesia. Nine of the 10 species were found on two Indonesian islands that are under-explored and hard to access. And these so-called new birds aren't new to each other. Lead researcher Frank Rheindt told The Guardian he was surprised they were all discovered so close to one another. The new species include one called the Taliabu Grasshopper Warbler, which, to be honest, doesn't look like much really. Kind of a muddy, gray-brown, normal beak, you know bird legs. I don't know. But its call is distinctive. And it's our Sound of the Day.

SOUNDCLIP

[Bird sound]

CH: Our Sound of the Day: the call of the Taliabu Grasshopper Warbler -- one of 10 new bird species discovered off the coast of Sulawesi, Indonesia.

[Music]

Part 2: U.S. intelligence briefing

U.S. intelligence briefing

Guest: Bonnie Watson Coleman

CH: It's been a week and a half since the United States killed one of Iran's top generals. And 11 days on, it's still not clear what justified the assassination of Qasem Soleimani. The general's death has already had grave consequences. It has heightened tensions between Washington and Iran to the point where many fear a wider military conflict. It prompted Tehran to retaliate with missile strikes against American forces in Iraq. And tragically, those strikes appear to have contributed to the accidental downing of a commercial flight in Iran that left 176 people dead. US President Donald Trump said in recent days that General Soleimani was planning attacks on four American embassies. But yesterday, his defense secretary admitted that claim was not based on intelligence. Bonnie Watson Coleman is a Democratic member of Congress for New Jersey. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

CO: Congresswoman Watson Coleman, have you seen anything so far that explains why General Soleimani was killed?

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: Not a thing. Nothing that relates to an imminent threat.

CO: But you've had intelligence briefings. What did you learn from that?

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: Mostly historical information. How bad he's been. What kind of a potential threat he is or was. But nothing that indicated that there was something happening imminently that justified what should have been a defensive action, which really appears to be an offensive action.

CO: Is it at all possible that the intelligence briefings are not telling you everything because they can't? That there is actually possibilities of compromises of national security? I mean, is it possible that there are legitimate reasons, but you're just not getting them?

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: You know, the administration came to Congress and briefed us. And they didn't talk about imminent threat. And then you'd look at the administration being interviewed and they couldn't get their message straight about it being an imminent threat. If it were an imminent threat, they could have told us. If they believed that that was the singular reason for doing what they did, their messages wouldn't be so confusing and contradictory.

CO: President Trump has said that, General Soleimani was, quote, "going after four American embassies." And then Defense Secretary Mark Esper says that's not based on intelligence but Mr. Trump's belief that there was a threat and that's a belief Mr. Esper shares. So if indeed they had reason to believe that American embassies, American people were targeted, would that be a valid reason, in your view, to assassinate the general?

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: Well, it has to be based on something more than the president thinking that perhaps it could have been four embassies that would be targeted or could be targeted. I mean when you make it life and death decisions like that, it needs to be based on some concrete information intelligence that has given to you. And even Esper said to his knowledge, he had no intelligence that other embassies -- the four embassies -- were being targeted. Now, if he didn't know, it would suggest to me that it was exactly as the president presented when he was being interviewed, wasn't based on anything other than the air he was breathing. And his need to say something in response to a question.

CO: We heard last week Republican Senator Mike Lee came out of a briefing about the reasons for killing General Soleimani. And Senator Lee said that he considered the briefing insulting, that he learned nothing from it. Which is a pretty bold statement from a Republican. Even in private, are any of your Republican colleagues questioning the decision to conduct this assassination?

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: Well, certainly Senator Lee has. And even Senator Rand Paul had expressed concerns. The one thing I know is that there is bipartisan concern that there was no briefing on the Hill that gave us confidence. So everyone has, I believe if they're true to themselves, recognizes that those questions, that very fundamental question about there was a threat and the threat was imminent. That very fundamental question has not been settled in our minds.

CO: But I mean there is a consensus that General Soleimani was an enemy. And the consequences for the United States have not been dire. So is this perhaps a calculated risk Mr. Trump took that he has actually succeeded in?

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: So here's the deal. Because they can't establish that there was an imminent threat, then he had a responsibility to consult with Congress before taking this action. So the question isn't whether or not Soleimani is the evilest person in the world. The question before us is: did we as a coequal branch of government have the opportunity to weigh in on this decision that has possibly put Americans in unsafe positions? So I don't believe that we're safer as a result of this action. And I don't believe that he conducted this strike with the appropriate authority.

CO: As you know, in the midst of this retaliation, Iran shot down a plane load of people, most of whom were on their way to Canada. And it's been noted in Canada that the US response has been muted, not just the president who said, well, it was nothing to do with them. But in general, we've not seen much response from Congress or even from US media about what's happened to Canadians. The sense that there's a relief that no Americans were killed. What would you say the Canadians who have this impression the US is more or less indifferent to what happened to those destined for Canada last week?

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: Well, what I have to say to Canadians and even to the Iranian families that lost their families on that strike, that my heart bleeds for that. And I do believe it is collateral damage from the decision that this president initiated when he took Soleimani out. As you can see, we're really kind of wrapped up in a number of things, including getting this president and his administration to respond to why they even engaged in this strike. But I am going to tell you that unfortunate airstrike was devastating. I feel so badly for the families and I feel so badly for the lives that were snuffed out because of this mistake. But had we not had this situation from the very beginning with the taking out of Soleimani, this probably would not have happened -- and those people on their way to Canada to go to school or to reunite with families, they would have done so safely and successfully.

CO: Congresswoman Watson Coleman, thank you for speaking with us.

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: Thank you for giving me this opportunity.

CH: Bonnie Watson Coleman is a Democratic congresswoman from New Jersey. She was in Washington.

[Music]

Seth Freedman

CH: He spied for Harvey Weinstein and he is not going to apologize for it. In 2016, Seth Freedman worked for Black Cube, an Israeli private intelligence agency, hired by the disgraced former movie producer. In that role, he gathered information about targets provided by Mr. Weinstein, who continues to deny all wrongdoing. Likewise, Mr. Freedman denies accusations that he and Black Cube intimidated and silenced Mr. Weinstein's accusers. When he spoke with the BBC, Mr. Freedman said he was just doing his job.

SOUNDCLIP

SETH FREEDMAN: I was told they've taken on a new case. It's in Hollywood. Normally, you wouldn't know who the client is, but in this case, it was clear that is Harvey Weinstein. I was told there is a plot against him and that various people are involved in trying to smear him and put out all kinds of negative publicity, whether in the press or in the industry and so on. And the first list I saw of targets or potential people who were carrying out this campaign was from memory, like five men and one woman. The list of people that Harvey wanted us to go after, grew bigger. It culminated in 91 names. You know, actors and actresses who'd worked for him in the past. And like, he didn't seem like they would be involved in a current plot against them. But again, you're just doing your job. The list was updated by Harvey and it had Rose McGowan's name on the actress. Through her agent, I called up and said my normal thing. My name is Seth Freedman, I used to write for The Guardian, I'm doing a big broad strokes piece about life in Hollywood now compared to how it was 20 years ago. Literally, we're just talking about her entire career. At no point do I mention Weinstein. I didn't even know what the allegations are necessarily at this point. And she brought it up. She said I was attacked by this director. She said, I'm going to tell all of this in my book. I asked her things like, you know, what did you do? Did you go to the police? Did you sign a nondisclosure agreement? And then it moves on. Because this is a huge huge interview in theory. And we must have spoken about him for a minute or two minutes max. Obviously, I give that recording to Black Cube and share it with Harvey Weinstein and his legal team. And then they can see okay that might be what she's planning to do with her book. Now, again, I don't care if people want to sit and sermonizing and says, that's so awful. She was a survivor and so on and so forth. None of this is tested in court. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm totally neutral about the whole thing. There's a strap line. It's constantly tried out in the press. The Black Cube were hired to intimidate, harass, and silence his victims. No intimidation, no silence, no harassing. All of those things would be legal and none of those things happened. Most of the silencing, if there ever was silencing, was done many years ago and long before Black Cube were involved. People who had made allegations against Weinstein for some reason didn't go to the police, for some reason were advised to sign NDAs.

REPORTER: Do you feel guilty about making that call to Rose McGowan?

SETH FREEDMAN: I don't feel guilty about anything I did for Black Cube. I think the problem with how toxic this debate is over the Weinstein case is that if you say anything that sounds like you're dissenting from the MeToo narrative, therefore you're on his side and you support him.

CH: That's Seth Freedman speaking with the BBC. Mr. Freedman was describing what it was like to spy on behalf of Black Cube, a private intelligence agency hired by disgraced film producer Harvey Weinstein.

[Music]

Brotherhood film nominated

Guest: Meryam Joobeur

CH: The film "Brotherhood" has already won 60 awards in 48 countries. And today it was nominated for its biggest one yet: an Oscar. The Canadian co-production with Tunisia, Qatar, and Sweden was nominated today for "Best Live Action Short" at the 92nd Academy Awards. The film follows a Tunisian shepherd who faces a dilemma when his estranged son returns home from Syria with a mysterious young wife. Meryam Joobeur directed Brotherhood. She's a Tunisian-American filmmaker based in Montreal. That's where we reached her.

CO: Meryam, first of all, a big congratulations.

MERYAM JOOBEUR: Thank you so much.

CO: What does it mean to you to get this nomination?

MJ: I mean, it's pretty incredible obviously, on a personal level. But right now, it's pretty surreal. But this moment is especially special because the film is actually a co-production between Canada and Tunisia. And for Tunisia, it's actually the first time the country is nominated. And Tunisia is my country of origin. So I feel very proud to be part of that, to have our moment.

CO: Foot in both places at the same time recognized by the Oscars. I know that the origins of this story, the spark that inspired it is really quite something and very chance and small. So can you tell us about that?

MJ: So in 2016, I decided to take a road trip in the north of Tunisia because I wanted to reconnect with my country of origin and kind of discover more of it. And on one of those days on the side of the road, I saw two red-headed freckled shepherd brothers walking with their sheep. And I asked the cinematographers to stop the car because I made eye contact with Malek, the oldest. And there was just something really powerful in his look. And we asked to take their photo, but they said no. And we drove away. But I remember looking at Vincent, and both of us feeling that there was something really special about them and this place. And I also learned that a lot of men from this region, from the small isolated region, had gone to Syria. So that's how the narrative of the story came back, where I wrote a story about a young man returning home from Syria and having to confront how his return impacts his family, especially his brother. And a year and a half later, Vincent and I went looking for the boys. So we had to go from village to village asking strangers if they knew any red-headed brothers. Luckily and thankfully, we ended up finding their house.

CO: So if the brothers initially wouldn't even let you take their photos on the side of the road, how did you convince them to take part in a film about the story of a brother returning from having been in ISIS? There must be a story there.

MJ: That was the funny part because when I found their house and we were about to knock on the door, that was the moment that I thought, wow, this is pretty crazy. They said no to a photo. How am I going to do this? But, you know, I just explained, you know, why I was there. And at first they didn't remember me at all. And they just looked at me dumbfounded and a bit apprehensive. I think the thing that was reassuring, I told them, look, you don't have to make a decision right now. I'll be back in six months. Think about it and let me know what your decision is. And when it came time to tell them about the script, I was a bit nervous, as you mentioned. I thought maybe the subject matter would scare them, but they told me the funny thing they're like, well, we're just acting. And I was like yes, you're right. You are just acting. So they understood very quickly that, you know, they are portraying characters that have lived through this event.

CO: And it's just extraordinary to see them and just be in this village life, to be in this rural setting, to see these shepherds. There's something very biblical about the story you're telling here as well. But setting it in this rural part of Tunisia, why was that important?

MJ: What I really wanted to show is, you know, how even the more isolated corners of the world have been affected by just the rise of radicalization and, you know, Islamophobia as well. You know, when I first met the boys and I learned that a lot of men had gone from this region to Syria, I couldn't wrap my mind around it because like you mentioned, there's something really raw. There's also something very pure about this region. There's no running water. A lot of families don't have running water at home. And I thought what would happen to a young man? You pluck a young man from that kind of pure isolated place and you drop him in the middle of a war like a very violent war. It was heartbreaking for me to imagine that scenario.

CO: To have this film nominated for an Oscar -- and when you talk about black and white that the way that the United States and parts much of Canada regards the young men who go off to join ISIS or become Islamic warriors, this is a bad thing. They've made a bad choice. And there isn't a lot of subtlety in that. What does it tell you that your film would be recognized by the Oscars?

MJ: I mean, I think what's really touching for me, because my goal in making that film is to show that the extremism of going to join ISIS is not too dissimilar from other extremes in society. Like, you know, a young American guy who joins the neo-Nazis or another, you know, Canadian young man who joins a cult or something. You know, these extremes stem from something. And in the case of "Brotherhood" I looked at, you know, how a son who feels judged and insecure because of his stern father could be led astray into making this decision. For me, it seems like because of the nomination, it feels like this message has resonated. And that's what makes me feel really proud as a filmmaker, because I was hoping that this message could go beyond borders. And that's what the Oscar nomination really represents, is the fact that the film's message has been able to spread and to be able to make people question the Arab and Muslim world.

CO: Well, whether you win or not, it's true that this will now reach a larger audience and more people will be aware of your film. And again, congratulations to you Meryam.

MJ: Thank you so much.

CH: Meryam Joobeur is the director of "Brotherhood" which was nominated for an Oscar for "Best Live Action Short" today. We reached her in Montreal.

[Music]

Money grows on trees?

CH: You know, they say: money doesn't grow on trees. I mean, listen, both of them say it.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I've been in this business long enough to know money doesn't to trees. But in this town they say the streets are lined with it.

VOICE 2: Money doesn't grow on trees. But in this village off the northeast coast, it's coming from somewhere.

CH: The BBC's Alex Reily, an ITV reporter Stacey Foster using the same cliché in different reports to describe a weird phenomenon in the town of Blackhall Colliery, England. Money was, as Ms. Foster accurately put it, coming from somewhere. But not as they established from trees. Since 2014, someone has been leaving bags of cash in public places around Blackhall Colliery -- always around 2000 British pounds per bag. That's around 3,400 dollars Canadian. And always in 20-pound notes. It has happened at least 12 times, which we know because 12 times people have taken the bags of money to the police. And when no one showed up to claim it, those money finders got it back. Police did a thorough investigation. They talked to everyone who'd found the money, made inquiries at the bank, took fingerprints from the bills. No leads. Until the perps introduced themselves to the authorities. Not to the rest of us, though. The two people who'd been leaving the bags of cash want to remain anonymous. Apparently they both came into some money and someone in Blackhall Colliery had done a kind deed for one of the benefactors who then felt a, quote, "emotional connection to the village." Hence the generous but odd gesture. So trees definitively eliminated as suspects. Although whoever's responsible obviously has deep roots in the community.

[Music]

Spy Museum

CH: Last spring, when the International Spy Museum in Washington, D.C. reopened at a new location, it also unveiled a new exhibit about the CIA's torture program. It featured examples of the agency's so-called enhanced interrogation techniques used in overseas prisons after the 9/11 attacks. In one room, there's a replica of a waterboard and beside it, a confinement box. The exhibit was widely criticized for sanitizing the brutality of the torture program, including the disapproval from former intelligence officials. Now, the museum says it's going to revamp the exhibit by March, according to a letter sent to lawmakers obtained by BuzzFeed News. Among the changes to the display will be the inclusion of the Senate Intelligence Committee's torture report, which concluded that no usable intelligence came from those interrogations. After the exhibit opened its doors last spring, a group of Guantanamo defense lawyers paid a visit. Alka Pradhan was on that trip. From our archives, here's part of her conversation with Carol in May of 2019 about why she went and what she thought.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Ms. Pradhan this doesn't sound like your average field trip. What brought you to the Spy Museum last week?

ALKA PRADHAN: Well I had seen on social media that the spy museum had included an exhibit on the CIA torture program post 9/11. And a lot of the commentary I saw and the photographs I saw were really concerning, completely off base, factually incorrect. You know myself and a number of other people who have worked on detainee cases out of Guantanamo had a lot of commentary on Twitter and we were invited by the historian of the Spy Museum to come and actually visit the exhibit and then provide feedback.

CO: So what were your impressions of this installation in the museum?

AP: In what seems to be an effort to provide a balanced account of an issue that doesn't require balance -- that is fairly black and white -- I believe the Spy Museum has tilted way too far to include CIA propaganda about the torture program. We had criticisms of almost everything in the exhibit -- from the text on the wall framing the program, to some of the examples used of the techniques that were used on the detainees, to the testimonials -- video testimonials -- that were included in the exhibit which we see as providing a platform to people who committed crimes.

CO: If people remember at the time George W. Bush and the White House and the CIA described them as enhanced interrogation techniques. They denied they were torture. Eventually the program was completely discredited. Can you describe for people what the CIA did in order to extract confessions from people in Guantanamo Bay?

AP: Sure. And to be clear they did not extract confessions from people at Guantanamo Bay what they did is they extracted what they considered to be intelligence. What they did to get that is to use as much pain as possible. To include of course waterboarding which in fact was not just waterboarding but also included water dousing where people were placed on tarps and mock drowned. They include walling which was taking someone's head and slamming it against a wall repeatedly. It included holding people nude in freezing conditions. Forced starvation. Stress positions that basically shattered people's you know muscles and joints.

CH: From our archives, that is Alka Pradhan speaking with Carol last May about the torture exhibit at the International Spy Museum in Washington, D.C. Ms. Pradhan is a defense lawyer representing Guantanamo prisoner Ammar al-Baluchi, who is charged with helping facilitate the 9/11 attacks.

[Music]

Part 3: BMO arrest complaint

BMO arrest complaint

Guest: Angela Sterritt

CH: Since last week, the story of a BC grandfather's recent visit to the bank with his 12-year-old granddaughter has been making headlines internationally. It started when Maxwell Johnson tried to open an account for his granddaughter at a Bank of Montreal branch in Vancouver last month. She travels a lot with her basketball team and he wanted her to be able to access that account while she was away. That routine transaction ended with Mr. Johnson and his granddaughter in handcuffs, detained by Vancouver police after a bank employee called 911 over suspected fraud.

SOUNDCLIP

MAXWELL JOHNSON: Like I was just in shock for a while. I wanted to know what was going on. And then since that happened to me, I have been isolating myself and really not doing much. I'm an artist and I'm having a hard time doing my art. It's just crazy. Like people that aren't well off and they don't look rich or they look like they're just making a paycheck to paycheck -- you know, they get discriminated because of their looks. You know, that's not right. Everybody works hard for a living. And, you know, having to go through something like that...it's just mind blowing. Especially for First Nations People and coloured people. You know, everybody's got to, you know, start working together and getting along. And, you know, having this race thing against us is not good at all. Like we take two steps forward, like four steps backwards when something like this happens to not only our people but coloured people too.

CH: Angela Sterritt is the CBC reporter who broke Maxwell Johnson's story last week. And in the days since, she's been searching for answers about what happened. We reached her in Vancouver.

CO: Angela we just heard some tape of Maxwell Johnson. And we know he's been struggling with anxiety since all of this happened. And that audio was from your report. How is he doing now?

ANGELA STERRITT: I think he's still struggling a bit. This has been very overwhelming from him. He's an artist. He's an incredible artist, but he leads a really low key life in Bella Bella with his family. And so, you know, to have CBC, the BBC, international media all over the world calling him this really took him back, as he said there, you know, two steps back. He was really trying to heal. But this has caused him significant anxiety, significant trauma, and his whole family has been affected by this. But I think at the same time, this has been validating for him to know that he didn't do anything wrong, you know. And also to validate many Indigenous Canadians who have felt, you know, racism or commercial racism all their lives.

CO: And as you point out, this is a story that's gone around the world. It's just had so much response, people just being shocked to learn that this happens to Indigenous people. If you could just remind us quickly of some of the details as to why the bank called the police when Maxwell and his granddaughter came to open that account.

AS: So what I know from Maxwell, the VPD has corroborated the accounts of when they put the handcuffs on...

CO: The VPD being the Vancouver Police Department.

AS: Yes. The Vancouver Police Department. We know that Maxwell and his granddaughter went into the bank to try to open an account for her. He's been a customer of BMO, Bank of Montreal, since 2014. They were using Indian status cards so that federally government issued ID. They were also using his birth certificate and they were also using her medical card. From what I understand, the woman, the employee, who was helping them open up the account -- there were concerns that those numbers on his status card and her status card lined up with the numbers that she had on her computer screen. So from there, what I understand is she went to another room to talk to another personnel, I'm assuming, and then the police were called. So there's a lot of unanswered questions. And we can only speculate based on Maxwell's account of what happened. And based on the bank's apology. But we don't know exactly what was the problem with their identification.

CO: But it was a 911 call about fraud after they looked at their government issued ID -- their Indian status cards. And we should point out, that it actually says Indians status card. Colonial language is still used. So you have had a lot of questions answered, a lot not answered in the course of trying to get to the bottom of this story. What does the Vancouver Police Department say?

AS: So the Vancouver Police Department has defended their actions. They said that they did follow protocol. They said that they do regret that the girl was 12-years-old. They were told from the Bank of Montreal that a fraud was in progress and they had on hand two South Asian individuals, one who was a 16-year-old South Asian girl and one who was a 50-year-old South Asian man. They also said that they have no question that the bank was not racially profiling the two. And they have stated that the police officers who put the handcuffs on the girl and the grandfather were of diverse communities themselves. So the bank said that they deeply regret what happened. They apologized. But they haven't followed up on questions as to whether the employee was reprimanded or disciplined. So lots of questions still.

CO: What do you understand as to why they described them, why the 911 call described them as South Asian?

AS: Again, we can only speculate because we have not heard from BMO why they use that language. Some people have speculated that maybe the BMO employee looked at their status card and said, 'Hey, there's two Indians here.' We don't know this, though.

CO: Were they handcuffed behind their backs or in front of them?

AS: I was told they were turned around in front of the police cruiser outside of the bank, and the handcuffs were put on them behind their backs.

CO: So this 12 year old girl was subjected to this. What effect did it have on her?

AS: I've talked to the grandfather about her. He says that, of course, she was terrified. She was crying when the handcuffs were on her. She was upset. She was traumatized. And she as well doesn't trust police anymore. Apparently, they were at their community longhouse and there was officers in front of the longhouse, and they both were just filled with anxiety and wanting to run because they were terrified. So it's caused a lot of harm mentally for them.

CO: You have covered many stories in depth in the Indigenous communities in Canada. Is there any doubt in your mind that the source of this is racism?

AS: One of the things about this case is that we've had the cooperation from the Vancouver Police Department. We've had the statements from the Bank of Montreal. When you have the Bank of Montreal saying we need to do better when it comes to our Indigenous clients, we need to take training all fingers kind of point to racial profiling and it's hard to not see it in that light. So this is one of the few stories I've actually done where there seems to be a very concrete definition of racial profiling here. But what's really interesting to me is that so many white people are saying, I didn't know -- I didn't know there was discrimination in Canada. And commercial racial profiling, I hear that from Indigenous people all the time. You know, I'm followed around the store. I am questioned if I'm trying to buy something. This happens all the time.

CO: Do you think you understood it so well and so immediately because of your own experiences?

AS: Well, what's interesting about me is that I am a light skinned Indigenous person. So when I'm with friends or with cousins or people in community, I will see an immediate difference in the way that I'm looked at. If I'm with somebody who's darker, it's immediate. So I'm never questioned because I can pass as white, I can pass for anything. And that's my privilege. And many Indigenous people don't have that privilege. They're in their skin every single day in a society that is founded upon racism and still has racism that exists today.

CO: Angela, thank you for your reporting and thanks for speaking with us.

AS: You're welcome.

CH: Angela Sterritt is the CBC reporter who broke the story that a Heiltsuk grandfather and his 12-year-old granddaughter were recently handcuffed while visiting a Bank of Montreal branch in Vancouver. We reached Ms. Sterritt in Vancouver.

[Music]

Dennis Nagy

CH: When he was put on a waiting list for new lungs recently, Dennis Nagy was told he had one month to live. The 47-year-old has cystic fibrosis. So when Mr. Nagy was put on life support at an Edmonton hospital last week, the clock was ticking to find a match. That wait can take months. For Mr. Nagy, it didn't even take a day. The donor's lungs were infected with Hepatitis C, and that likely saved Mr. Nagy's life. The thing was, those lungs were destined for someone else but the hospital where the next person on the list was waiting didn't accept infected lungs. Mr. Nagy's hospital did. CBC Edmonton spoke with his sister, Danielle Verbeek, about receiving the unexpected news.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIELLE VERBEEK: On Saturday morning at 6:00 am, I received a call from my brother himself saying they're intubated me. I could barely understand him to make out what they were saying. And my mom and dad and I, we all rushed into the hospital and we spent basically the day with him and we had left for about an hour or so. And my phone rang at 1:23 pm and it was the transplant doctor. And he said, we can't believe this, but we have a donor. They've never seen it happen that fast. So we were just all in in tears. It was quite amazing. And anyways, so he had his transplant. He went into the OR on Sunday and cardiothoracic surgeon said that the lungs fit like a glove and they couldn't believe how good of a match that they got for him. So as it stands today, he's only on two liters of oxygen from being on 50 liters of high flow oxygen. So he's truly created what we think is a miracle.

CH: That's Danielle Verbeek speaking with CBC Edmonton. Her brother, Dennis Nagy, received new lungs this month after being on the transplant list for less than 24 hours.

[Music]

Canadian wolves

CH: After 75 years, some former residents of Colorado may be returning to the state. But if they do, they can expect a mixed welcome at best. The fate of the gray wolf will be decided by Colorado voters this year. After a successful campaign by the Rocky Mountain Wolf Action Fund to have the question of reintroduction included on a state ballot. There have been reports of gray wolf sightings in Colorado just this week. But officially the last of the native born population was killed in 1945. The gray wolf has long been a subject of controversy in the Rockies region. In the mid-90s, Canada sent 35 of them to the nearby state of Idaho in a well-intentioned effort to save the animal from extinction. And it worked. But plenty of people weren't happy about it. In 2007, Carol spoke with Hunter Ron Gillett. He wanted all the wolves -- which he calls "Canadian wolves" -- killed. Here's some of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Mr. Gillett, why do you want to have all of these wolves killed?

RON GILLETT: We want the Canadian wolf removed from Idaho because it is an exotic species that is causing the worst wildlife disaster in our state's history. Each Canadian wolf, will kill 16 to 24 ungulates per year to eat on. They will kill twice that many for binge killing. And the kicker is they follow the elk herds around in the spring and kill the calves as fast as they're born.

CO: But these wolves were sent to Idaho because your own population had been completely diminished.

RON GILLETT: No, that's not true. That's fallacy that comes out of some pro-wolf groups' little handbook. The Idaho Wolf was still here. It's true it was not in large numbers. It would be true that they are dead and gone now because Canadian wolves do not put up with any competition. They kill.

CO: But why did Idaho want to have these?

RON GILLETT: Idaho did not want these wolves. These wolves were dumped on the state of Idaho by the US Fish and Wildlife Service and their friends -- defenders of wildlife and others who got this done. The citizens of Idaho didn't want them, don't want them, and are going to get rid of them, period. The feds brought them in. The feds can get them out. Now, we don't care if they shoot them. We don't care if they poison them. We don't care what they do, but get them out.

CH: Carol speaking with Idaho hunter Ron Gillett, 13 years ago last week.

[Music]

Neil Peart obit

Guest: Johnny Fay

CH: Neil Peart's drum kit was legendary. A 360-degree nest of snares, symbols, toms and pads unlike any other. For a drummer, unlike any other. But the late Mr. Peart was also more than a drummer. He was the main lyricist for Rush. And a writer in his own right of books, including the travel memoir: "The Masked Rider: Cycling in West Africa." Back in 1996, he spoke with the CBC's Shelagh Rogers on Morningside about that book and about how he understood the notion of excellence.

SOUNDCLIP

NEIL PEART: Excellence can be considered a luxury, and I do have a friend who seriously thinks about these things and he's a philosophy graduate and an Aristotle adherent. So he preferred to think that excellence was a necessity. While I argued that really only vegetables are a necessity, nearly everything else you know can be considered a luxury. And I thought excellence was too and the metaphor that I drew in the book that, you know, a great hotel room might be excellence, but I'll sleep on the floor in the back room of a brothel if I have to. And, you know, a glorious nouvelle cuisine meal might be an excellent thing, but I'll eat rice with sand on it and some fufu. And champagne, single malt whiskey, these things are excellent, but I'll drink water filtered out of a well that has frogs living in it. And have done these things. And again, you just learn what is really essential and what's worth complaining about.

CH: We learned of Mr. Peart's death shortly before going to air on Friday. Not long after Johnny Fay heard the news. Mr. Fay is, of course, the drummer for another great Canadian band, The Tragically Hip. And he's long-time friend of Neil Peart's. We reached him today in Toronto.

CO: Johnny, what is it like to hear your friend Neil Peart's voice on that clip?

JOHNNY FAY: Well, you know, you're always left with what a beautiful human being he was. And, you know, when you were talking to him, he was, you know, he was very engaging and with you. You know, it wasn't like there was anyone else in the room.

CO: And the way he talks about what is essential, what is a luxury, what is a necessity, and what's essential. What was essential for Neil Peart as far as you know?

JF: Family, without a doubt. You know, when you're in a band, you miss a lot of important dates: birthdays, anniversaries. And, you know, you put yourself out in a rock. And when I was left with after Neil's passing, I was reading on his website, after the incredible tragedy that he had in his life with the passing his daughter and his wife and then having a new family. And what was really amazing was reading how he was taking his daughter Olivia up to Canada for the first time. And he got her snow shoes and just reading about his time with his family. I think that was the most important thing.

CO: When you talk about Olivia, that was his daughter with his wife Carrie. But you mentioned this -- and this is interesting because what we just heard in 1996 that Neil Peart clip, it was just I think a year after that that his daughter Selena was killed in that car accident. And then 10 months after that, her mother -- his first partner -- Jacqueline Taylor, died of illness. So the extraordinary amount of pain he went through. And each time he came out writing, not just writing songs and being a musician, but writing books. Right. I mean, this is what he told us so much about him.

JF: Yeah. And his transformation as a drummer was quite amazing too because he you know, he put so much into it. And he was so incredible. And he was a guy who pushed himself that after he had these tragedies, he changed the way that he gripped the sticks. He changed the level of the drums. He changed his approach. And then he went on to study with another monster, Peter Erskine. And so he was always pushing himself. And he got to a point where he just wasn't happy with the way he was playing. And of course, after this tragedy, he was a different person. He was a different human on the drums.

CO: In what way? Can you describe that?

JF: I think he was looking to figure out if he still wants to play the drums, A. And then when he got out to California, I think that that, you know, changed his perspective. He changed from companies and he started studying again and got back into playing.

CO: And what is it about that set? I mean, he had this extraordinary drum set that people went to the concerts because they wanted, you know, one of the major attractions was being able to see those incredible drum solos. What was it about that set?

JF: You know what? My very first introduction to it was looking at the pictures from "All the World's a Stage." And a guy told me in Kingston in the schoolyard that Neil Peart had 100 drums and he had a little seat that was on a train track. And he had to use this little seat to get to all the drums. And if you listen to it and looked at the picture, you would believe that. I was like, oh my God. You see, he is playing 100 drums. And he had a very specific way. The only way I can really explain it is just like Serena Williams serves the ball. Nobody else on the planet will be able to play that drum set the way that Neil plays that drum set. It is just...it's very unique.

CO: What did he bring to Rush? What was key to what he provided to that band?

JF: Well, there's a lot of room to move around. But the guitar in a three piece is the orchestra and the other guys are holding it down. But Rush was different because they were really three orchestras all playing the same song.

CO: He was an intellectual as well, wasn't he? People called him "The Professor."

JF: The professor of the drum kit, yeah.

CO: But he drew -- one of his song lyrics, it was it was inspired by Ayn Rand. And he read extensively -- he drew from classic literature. He wrote books. He had an extraordinary intellectual range, didn't he?

JF: Yeah. But he didn't make you feel small for not knowing. He wanted to bring to light. He didn't want to be a "told you so" kind of guy. You know what I mean?

CO: The Tragically Hip having lost Gord Downie. You know what that does to the other band members. And so this is probably what other members of Rush are going through. What would you say to them about this period of time after a key loss like this one?

JF: Well, I mean time is a great healer. But I think about all the times that they spent on the road, that they were traveling, and it was just the three of them maybe on a bus. And those incredible moments are never lost. Our hearts go out to them. I know we Hips love Rush. And, you know, we look at them as big brothers.

CO: Is there a song? Is there a particular cut that stands out for you that you think would best showcase Neil Peart? We can share with our audience now.

JF: Well, there's a song I go to a lot these days that is called "Different Strings" which Geddy Lee actually writes lyrics for. It's really great because he shows a lot of restraint. He's maybe approaching the song a little bit differently because he didn't write the lyrics. But he does a couple of rolls that are just incredible. And I love it. I absolutely love it. You know, you talked about what did he bring to the band? And he brought, you know, incredible musicianship, but also composition on the drums. He was like nobody else.

CO: Johnny, I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and memories of Neil Peart with us. Thank you.

JF: Thank you Carol. I appreciate it.

CH: Johnny Fay is the drummer for The Tragically Hip, and a compatriot and friend of the late Neil Peart. We reached Mr. Fay in Toronto.

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January 13, 2020 Episode Transcript

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