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The AIH Transcript for January 30, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Karen Gordon

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening, I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight.

HM: Horror in Quebec City. A gunman's attack on a mosque leaves six people dead and several others in critical condition. A member of the mosque, who lost two friends, shares his grief and his fear.

KG: "Humanity's ugliest face." That's how a Quebec MP describes the attack, calling it an act of terrorism. And he's urging all Canadians to reach out to members of the Muslim community to express their solidarity.

HM: Protecting the vulnerable. Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale tries to reassure the Muslim community that law enforcement is doing all it can to bring the killer to justice -- and to keep them safe.

KG: An escape, interrupted. A Syrian student in New York is crushed to learn of the U.S. travel ban on Syrian refugees. It means her mother and her sister's plans to join her in the United States are in jeopardy. And now, she says, they are considering seeking asylum in Canada.

HM: A wing and a lawyer. As people in transit get caught up in the chaos of U.S. President Trump's legal restrictions, advocates head to airports across the United States to try to help those stuck in limbo.

KG: And . . . After that deadly attack on a mosque, Quebec's premier invokes the words of the province's most famous anthem, "Mon Pays."
As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that quotes those lyrics: "My home is your home."

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Quebec City mosque killings: mosque member/Conservative MP Gérard Deltell/Public Safety Minister Goodale

Quebec City mosque killings: mosque member

Guest: Mohammed Oudghiri

KAREN GORDON: Police in Quebec City have one man in custody tonight. Another man is being questioned as a witness to yesterday's murderous attack on the Quebec Islamic Cultural Centre. Six people are dead, shot to death yesterday as they performed their evening prayers. Another nineteen people are being treated for injuries.
This morning, the distraught leaders of the mosque joined the city's mayor, Quebec's premier and community leaders of all stripes to show their solidarity -- and to mourn.
The president of the mosque closed the news conference with a reading from the Koran -- a prayer for the dead.

SOUNDCLIP

Reciting of the prayer for the dead.

KG: That was Mohammed Yangui, the president of the Quebec Islamic Cultural Centre with a prayer for those killed in last night's shooting.
Mohammed Oudghiri is a member of the mosque. He lost two friends in last night's shooting. We reached Mr. Oudghiri in Quebec City.

HELEN MANN: Mr. Oudghiri, first of all, please accept my condolences on this terrible day.

MOHAMMED OUDGHIRI: You know when you spend one night, you have to take just a little break to think about everything. Yesterday, I’ve been injured. I've… I hate myself and I hated this life. I hate the radicalist people, because you know, we are born, we should be human, and we work hand in hand.

HM: I understand that you have now learned that you have lost two of your friends, is that correct?

MO: Yes. I lost one of the best of my friends, we will know each other since more than 25 years.

HM: Premier Philip Couillard said today that we should ask those who knew these victims about their lives and who they were. Can you tell us a bit about that best friend of yours?

MO: He is a good person, he is an entrepreneur, he has a grocery, and he was my neighbor before and after he was somebody we meet each [unintelligible] at the mosque and when the mosque need him for something, for anything, he is always present. He never said no. And he helped people, everybody.

HM: How is his family holding up today?

MO: Well yesterday, we’ve been at his family. His apartment was very crowded, you know about 40 people there and still now I'm talking to you. Well the people doesn't stop to see his wife and children. They need the presence of somebody at home to support them.

HM: Can you tell us what happened last night in terms of how you first learned about this and the impact it had on you when you found out?

MO: Well yesterday, I've been at home and I received one call from one friend working at the radio station and he asked me if it's true there is an attack at the mosque of Ste-Foy. I’ve been astonished because I never been attendant to have something like that. I said I didn't heard, but I'm going to look. I have to move. I took my car. But how we can't reach the mosque, we can’t contact people because I saw just the energy cars bring in people injured and died to the different hospitals. So we've been looking who did that? We heard that two people… one was surprised in the parking, and another one about 20 kilometers from the mosque. He called the police to tell them that he did what's happened. We listened to the police and they said only one is implicated in this, this event. And the other one is not implicated in the event.

HM: How have you been coping as you've learned all of these things? How has it made you feel?

MO: I can't describe to you how I am feeling. Yesterday, I've been angry, really very angry and I decided to leave this country. But you know, we should always after one night, you have to think all the way. And I said, if we give the chance to the terrorists, we are the loser. We have to stay here. And we have to be proud that we are Canadians, we are Quebecers, and we have to fight these guys.

HM: Do you feel unsafe?

MO: Since yesterday, I am afraid. I am afraid because I don't feel secure. Never never never been believing this could be happening here in Quebec.

HM: We understand that the mosque has received some threats in the past. There was that incident involving a pig's head sent there. Was there extra security or anything?

MO: We have a camera 24 hours a day you know? But before, just the troubles started that's last year, the last summer. When troubles in all of of the world you know? They bring a pork head, they put it in the mosque. And after that they come and they broke the windows and they write many bad things on the walls et cetera. You know, that's last summer.

HM: Did police take those things seriously? Was that seen as a threat?

MO: Because they don't take that seriously last summer, OK? It was happened also to another mosque in the same, in the same place, not so far from this mosque last summer.

HM: What did police say?

MO: Well, the police they said always making investigation and that and that and then. We can’t meet against the police. You know, we have to believe what they say.

HM: Do you think that more could have been done to prevent this?

MO: Yeah. We need more security. Not just for us but for all the people, because it's becoming worse and worse.

HM: What do you think is behind that? What is making it worse?

MO: The radicalists, and also the media, also. I guess for different people. You know, the political parties, they use does this segment you know to have place in the parliament, but they use the immigrant as a problem. And here in Quebec, we have no problem. And just like Trump in the United States looking for troubles. That’s all.

HM: Finally, I just want to ask you how you are going to be remembering your dear friend that you lost and other members of your community?

MO: You know, you can't forget when one friend like that. He is always present in our life and his family is always present, because it's in mind

HM: Mr. Oudghiri again, we're very sorry for your loss and thank you so much for talking to us.

MO: Thank you very much.

HM: Bye bye.

MO: Merci, bye.

KG: That was Mohammed Oudghiri, a member of the mosque where last night's shooting took place. He was in Quebec City. Among those killed are a shopkeeper, a professor, a popular butcher, and the mosques concierge's.

[Music]

Quebec City: Conservative MP

Guest: Gérard Deltell, Ralph Goodale

KG: The provincial capital has been hit hard by news of the killings at a mosque in Quebec City. Conservative MP Gérard Deltell represents a riding in the city. We reached him in Ottawa.

HM: Mr. Deltell, what are you hearing from people in your riding today?

GERARD DELTELL: Well what the people are saying is that when you're talking about I would say, French-Canadians, they are very ashamed of what happened and they are ashamed first of all in in thinking of the people who suffered for that. The victim, the orphans, the widows, and all the people who lost close friends. So we are deeply sorry for what happened yesterday. And then this is a question: how come? How come these things happen in our own city? You know, we see deaths happening all around the world, in other cities, other countries, but not in our hometown. Quebec City is recognized as a good, nice city. You know, a very safe city. But then was just a clear demonstration that terrorists can hit everywhere, and terrorism has no law. Terrorism has no race. Terrorism has no country. Terrorism has no religion. Terrorism is the ugliest face of the human being. And yes we have, obviously, that human being here in Quebec.

HM: Well as you're asking those questions, what are you thinking about why Quebec City and why this particular mosque might have been targeted?

GD: Well it’s a little bit too early to make any conclusions to that. First of all, we must know exactly the purpose of the guy who is now under investigation. The suspect, what he had in his mind. What happened before to make him like that. So we have to let the police force doing his job. And after that, we will maybe have some information that could help us to understand the ugliest thing. But the point is is that that we must understand all of us that we live in the same hurt and we are all human beings on this issue. And so we have to respect each other, first and foremost, the religion of everyone. No religion is better than the other. We should respect that. So this is maybe one of the lessons that we have to learn from the catastrophic events of yesterday.

HM: The Premier is saying that these people were clearly targeted because of the community of which they are a part. What do you say to that? What message do you have to the Muslims who live in your riding?

GD: Well what I say to them that they are Canadian as I am and as everybody is. So we shall respect each other. And if you see, if you meet someone with the Muslim community, just say hello to him, shake hands, pay respect to him. Smile to him, to her, and say well we are sorry and we are just… our deepest sorrows to what happened yesterday and we are with you. We all like you. So this is why we are with you. That's the only thing that we can say and we can do now. Well I think it's quite important.

HM: What will you be doing in the coming days?

GD: Well, we’re getting in touch with all the people who are involved in this situation just to be sure that first things are going well to them. And also can we secure them, because for sure and you know when things happen, we are very afraid of death. But after a few hours, after a few days you know, our mind is a little bit more clear. So then we will act proactively for the will of these people especially the will of all [unintelligible].

HM: Have you had particular concerns about the security of this mosque? I mean we had that incident in which a pig's head was sent to this mosque. Have you had reason to be alarmed? Have you done anything about tha?

GD: Well personally not. I was not very aware, not very concerned with that at this point. But after that, it's very easy to say well, why we have not so more cautious to them? You know, this is also the proof that terrorism is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. So all of us have to be aware of what can happen to the people who lost their minds like the actual suspect.

HM: All right. Thank you very much Mr. Deltell. I appreciate your talking to us.

GD: My pleasure.

KG: Gérard Deltell is a Quebec City Conservative MP. He was in Ottawa.
Ralph Goodale is the man responsible for keeping Canadians safe from the terror that Mr. Deltell described. We reached the Minister of Public Safety in Ottawa.

HM: Minister Goodale, we heard earlier from a man who lost two friends in last night's attack, including his best friend. And he says he is now afraid for his own life. What message do you have for him and his community?

RALPH GOODALE: Well two things. One is that he is not alone. Canadians are standing firmly in solidarity with the people of Ste-Foy, particularly with the community that has been victimized in and around the Islamic Centre. The outpouring of, I think, genuine affection from across the country has been… has been both impressive and important. It really is vital that Canadians send that message that we're all in this together. And secondly, the police and security services are actively engaged in doing everything they can to make sure that we're keeping Canadians safe.

HM: Yeah. Well beyond that particular community, given that your government and police are treating this as an act of terror, should Canadians, particularly Muslim-Canadians be frightened tonight?

RG: You can certainly understand the angst and anxiety that would… that would be in the in the hearts and minds of a particular community that feels victimized. And obviously, with justification of what happened in Ste-Foy. But all of us in our society need to reach out to those who are vulnerable and to make sure that they do not feel alone, and that we do everything we possibly can to protect them and support them, just as we would for everyone else in our society.

HM: So much attention has been paid in recent years to Islamist terrorism. Do police and other security officials have the tools they need to combat anti-Muslim terrorism such as what took place in Quebec City?

RG: Well there's a tendency to pigeonhole or categorize different kinds of terrorist activities. And I think what we need to recognize is that violent, extreme violence directed toward any group, by any group, is equally abhorrent. And we cannot allow ourselves, in the way we structure our laws, or deal with our administrative procedure, or police or security procedures, to be lulled into the false security that a terrorist problem comes from only one direction.
Now having said that, by and large this is a peaceful secure and safe country. But we cannot take that for granted. We have to work at it. We have to work at our pluralism and our diversity and our sense of inclusion so that we can make everyone feel safe.

HM: You said this afternoon that lone wolf attacks are the hardest to stop. What makes you so certain at this point this wasn't part of something larger.

RG: Well the evidence will be forthcoming in due course. The police are conducting their investigation on the basis of what we see now. It would it would appear to be focused and limited to one individual. But this is still very early days in an investigation and the police will bring forward all of their evidence and lay the appropriate charges and in due course. The situation is still evolving.

HM: This particular Quebec mosque has received threats in the past. Can you tell us whether it was receiving any special protection or observation in recent times?

RG: I cannot answer that question, and quite frankly, it's an operational question that I should not answer because it's internal to the to the police services. But when incidents do occur, the police and security authorities govern themselves accordingly and take that into account when they distribute their resources and handle the workload that they have to do. One of the one of the things that we announced today is that a security infrastructure program that we expanded last year is going to be extended this year because groups and organizations like this one may want to take advantage of it.
The deadline for making an application was coming up tomorrow. So we've lifted that deadline so that churches and cultural centers and schools and others that that might see themselves in a vulnerable position will have will have more time to make an application.

HM: Right, but generally, you've got… are you advising law enforcement or even mosques and other cultural centers themselves to take additional precautions right now?

RG: In terms of the actual security across the country, when an event like this happens, the police forces and the police services immediately consult with each other nationwide to make sure that they are identifying the points of vulnerability, the points of highest risk and are deploying their resources accordingly. The RCMP do that on a on a very regular basis with their counterparts in all of the municipal and provincial police forces in every corner of the country. So in light of what happened last night, they would be doing complete surveillance across the country about where the risks would be, where their vulnerabilities might be, and they would be deploying their resources accordingly.

HM: In his time of travel bans, volatile rhetoric south of the border, how much harder is it for politicians like you to keep a lid on these kinds of tensions? Does that contribute, do you think?

RG: Well it makes the challenge larger. But you know, one thing that was was quite impressive in the in the House of Commons today was the spirit of complete solidarity from everyone who spoke or raised the question on this particular topic. And it was really quite interesting that that sentiment of “We're all in this together,” and that that fair and decent and wonderful society that we've built here, we all have a duty to work hard at making it stick. And you can't take it for granted.

HM: Minister Goodale, thank you for speaking with us.

RG: Thank you.

KG: Ralph Goodell is Canada's Minister of Public Safety. He was in Ottawa.

[Music]

KG: Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard urged Canadians to stand united in the face of violence and xenophobia. This afternoon, he delivered a special address to all Quebeckers. The premier spoke of the vigils set to start after we go to air. And he quoted the province's unofficial bard, Gilles Vigneault, as he told Quebeckers that it is time to make a choice.

SOUNDCLIP

PHILIPPE COUILLARD: It is time to show who we are. To show the best of ourselves. Men and women who live together in French in this piece of North America that is Quebec, as it was written by Gilles Vigneault, “My home is your home. Ma maison est votre maison.” In a few hours, we will walk together to express our rejection of this horrible violence. Let us also walk for friendship, mutual understanding, brotherhood among peoples. This is a choice this tragedy has brought us to. I want you to know that my choice as Premier of Quebec, as your premier is that of confidence of, openness, of citizenship that this truly and fully shared for all, regardless of the color of our skin, regardless of our beliefs, or of who we love. Dear Quebeckers, this is the Quebec that we dream of, this is the Quebec we have chosen, the one that we will continue to build together. Our common home in which ”la chambre d'amis sera telle qu'on viendra des autres saisons pour se bâtir à côté d'elle.”

Part 2: US ban: Syrian in NYC, US ban: airport detentions

US ban: Syrian in NYC

KAREN GORDON: They were so close. Two weeks ago, a Syrian scholarship student granted asylum in the United States found out her family had been approved to join her in America. They have been separated for years.
Now, with the indefinite ban preventing Syrian refugees from entering the United States, her hopes of reunification are dashed.
We've agreed not to identify our guest by name to protect her family, who are abroad. We reached her in New York City.

HELEN MANN: You found out just two weeks ago that your mother and sister had been approved to come to the United States. Can you take us back to that moment and tell us what it was like for you.

GUEST: Well, I was so happy. They called them and they told them to go to Beirut, where they live, they live in Lebanon right now to take the decision. So they went there and they told them “This is a preliminary approval.” If everything goes well as planned, they will be able to come here in two to six months.

HM: So then tell us what went through you when you heard about the executive order blocking Syrians without green cards from entering the U.S. indefinitely.

GUEST: So the… the draft was released on Wednesday I think. And I read the draft and honestly I started freaking out, and calling my friends who are lawyers and asking what did they think, would this include people who already been approved. And my friends told me to wait and see what he's going to find. But for now, it means they will not be able to come. And then on Friday he signed it.
I called my mom. I think the first thing, I called my mom, and I started crying. And my mom she said “It's going to be fine, don’t worry. We’ll figure out a way to meet one day.”

HM: How are you feeling today?

GUEST: I cried it all out and now I'm just trying to be realistic. Honestly I just want to see my mom at this stage. It’s been three to four years now. I really don't know what to do.

HM: President Trump as you know of course, had proposed these restrictions on the campaign trail. Had you been prepared for the possibility that a ban might be put in place?

GUEST: So, like a lot of people, I expected Hillary to win. But then November happened, he won, and I started asking people around how he's going to handle that. And even, I asked my sister to ask the centre helping her through the process and they said “Right now, we don't expect it's going to make a change because you are already in the process. But it might change for the people who are not in the process.” And honestly, I did not expect it's going to be the first week. I expect it is going to be like in two months or three months.

HM: You thought your mother and your sister might slip through.

GUEST: Exactly. And actually that's what they told them.

HM: Now how are you in the United States? What is it that brought you to the U.S. and how is it that your family was left behind?

GUEST: I came by myself as a student and I'm working now.

HM: Do you remember what it was like for you when the U.S. accepted your application for asylum?

GUEST: Oh. I was so happy. I think that's one of the happiest days of my life. It took me a long time. It took me two years and four months to get the approval. So it was a long... a lot of waiting and a lot of stress, but I love the United States. It's my home away from home.

HM: You said earlier that your mother and your sister are in Lebanon now. How are they doing? What is their living situation?

GUEST: They’re better than a lot of other Syrians right now. I think that Syrians are not allowed to work. To be able to stay in Lebanon they cannot work, but they have their basic needs. They have a place to sleep and… it's just there's no jobs, nothing. Like, you don't see any future.

HM: Have they tried to visit you?

GUEST: They tried three times. They were rejected. They didn't have a visa.

HM: Would you consider trying to visit them now?

GUEST: I cannot go to Lebanon. As a refugee or an asylee in the U.S., you need a refugee travel document to be able to travel, and Lebanon does not accept this document so I cannot enter Lebanon.

HM: What would it have meant for their lives right now, for them to be with you in the United States?

GUEST: We had a lot of plans, and a lot of dreams. We’re an all-female household. My dad passed five years ago, it was only my sister and my mom. We were planning to find jobs, buy an apartment, and just have a normal life. We had a plan, to be close, to have a community and just to start from scratch again.

HM: The president has made clear that the direction he sees the U.S. taking is to favor Christian refugees. How do you feel about that as a Muslim?

GUEST: It's a little bit hard. I think the problem is maybe they don't have enough information of how it is back in Syria. The war has changed everyone's life, not only Christians. And my best friend is Christian. My roommate is a Christian Syrian. We are all the same, we live with each other. We have the same lifestyles. Everything is the same. And in my opinion, it's a little bit unfair.

HM: What have your conversations been like with your roommate, given that she is Christian Syrian?

GUEST: She has been very supportive, and she told me it's ok I'm going to convert and be Muslim for you. Don't be sad.

HM: What do you make of all the protests you've been seeing across the U.S. this weekend?

GUEST: Well this is what I've been seeing in the U.S. all since I moved here. People are very welcoming and people believe in freedom. I know there is some fear and I understand it. Media show crazy things and people are scared and people want to protect themselves and their children. But I think with exposure, with like seeing refugees talking to them, listening to their stories, this will make people not scared anymore. For the people who are in the cities protesting, I want to thank them so much, that I know they are doing this because they were exposed to immigrants and refugees, and they know that by doing this they're helping people to have a new start, and those people one day, when they're given the opportunity, they really excel.

HM: Did you attend any of the protests there was the one in New York City?

GUEST: No. I'm just… I'm scared. I'm just scared.

HM: What will you and your family do now? It sounds like your mother is a hopeful person. What's the plan?

GUEST: So I was talking to them today and she said let's wait until we get an official rejection and then we'll see what options we have. I told them maybe we can consider Canada staying there and then maybe I can meet them in Canada and try to find something… start something there. So Canada is an option.

HM: We are not using your name. Can you tell us what it is that that you were afraid of if people were to learn it?

GUEST: The thing is, I don't know what’s the future for the U.S. I don’t know what’s going to happen now. There's a lot of uncertainty. I was in Syria. I lived under a dictatorship, and we were afraid of doing anything and everything and we would not even talk about something in a closed room because we would think the walls would hear. That's what my dad used to say, “The walls have ears. Don't say anything.” So I feel I'm having these feelings again right now. So I prefer not to use my name.

HM: Thank you very much for speaking with us. I wish you all the best.

GUEST: Thank you so much for your time.

HM: Bye bye.

GUEST: Bye, have a good one.

HM: There was a Syrian woman living in New York City she was granted asylum after arriving in the United States as a scholarship student. We agreed not to identify her. Two weeks ago her mother and sister were granted preliminary approval to come to the U.S. as refugees. Now with that country's indefinite ban on the admission of Syrian refugees, those plans are in jeopardy.

[Music]

Airport detention

Guest: Ofelia Calderon

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Voices chanting in call and response]

VOICE: Show me what resistance looks like.

CROWD: This is what resistance looks like.

KG: Big, loud protests continued today at airports across the United States against the Trump administration's travel ban. And lawyers have also been going, but not to join the protests. They've been heading to airports to try to provide assistance to those stranded by the ban.
Ofelia Calderon is an immigration lawyer who spent most of her weekend at Washington's Dulles International Airport. We reached her today in Fairfax, Virginia.

HM: Ms. Calderon, what did you learn at Dulles International Airport when you were there on the weekend?

OFELIA CALDERON: I learned that the Department of Homeland Security was not allowing lawful permanent residents to enter the United States, and potentially returning other individuals with lawful documents to enter the United States, potentially not allowing them in and returning them to the country that they came from.

HM: How difficult was it to get a handle on what was actually going on?

OC: It was really incredibly difficult to be honest with you. I mean we weren't getting any information from the government, from Customs and Border Protection. All the information that we were obtaining was from friends and family members who were in the international arrivals waiting area and also through interviewing people who were able to get off the airplane and talk about what they saw back there.

HM: And what kind of things did you hear?

OC: We heard that there were lines, we heard that the people were separated. Obviously the passengers were coming off the airplanes, most of them anyway weren't lawyers, and so all they could really describe was a process of separation.

HM: How were you able to help or at least try to help?

OC: With the information that we had about specific individuals, we attempted to gain access to them. I had for example, was assigned a case of two individuals that we knew were coming in or had come in, or should have arrived that day and their family members hadn’t been able to reach them. So we attempted to speak to CBP about it and we weren't able to. I mean they were very clear that they weren't going to give us any access or any information about anyone that was in detention. So we tried sort of a generalized request saying “Tell us who's back there, tell us how many people are detained. Are you holding anybody?” And then a more specific approach with “I represent these individuals. I want to see my client.”

HM: So what happened with those two cases?

OC: With respect to access, we didn't get any.

HM: None at all.

OC: None at all.

HM: And do you know anything about their status and what might happen to them now?

OC: You know, there are a couple of cases that I do know things about, but to be honest, some of these cases, they are now going to be in litigation. I'm kind of limited to how much I can say about that. Except to say that obviously, if there is litigation, it’s because we believe that their rights have been infringed upon.

HM: Do you have any idea how many people might still be detained either at Dulles or any other locations?

OC: We don't. I mean, obviously CBP has said to, Customs and Border Protection has told us, that they that they weren't going to hold anybody. That they had released everyone, that's what they told us. You know, I obviously we weren't back there so we can't be 100 percent sure. As to whether or not people are being detained at other locations, meaning that they were taken away from Dulles and we don't know about them, I mean that's something that we're in the process of looking for. I mean that's essentially us looking at every single jail to figure out whether or not they received any detainees from Dulles.

HM: So you have no other way of finding that information out.

OC: There is no other way.

HM: What about–

OC: Well, I guess we could a FOI. And I think that's a process as well.

HM: A Freedom of Information request?

OC: Exactly.

HM: Do you have any idea how many travelers may have just been sent back where they came from?

OC: None. None. Because that's… that's another question right. I mean that's a question that you'd ask any airport. How many individuals did you expect to arrive, on any given day, on any given flight, and then how many were sent back. And we don't have that information. I'm confident that information has been requested and not been produced.

HM: I gather you've been doing this kind of law for many years. I'm just wondering if you've seen anything like this before in your dealings with airports or immigration officials in the past?

OC: Zero. I mean yes, I mean I've been practicing immigration law exclusively for… since 2001 and I have never experienced this ever. I mean I just… it’s just unequivocal. Never. I mean that in particular, I think with respect to lawful permanent residents who are returning. But I mean, just in general. I mean you know if there's an issue where someone is inadmissible to the United States, obviously that's the law and we deal with it there at the airport, or the person deals with it. But I mean this unilateral denial of admission and access to people who have lawful documents and whose lives are here, their families are here, in particular again, the lawful permanent residents. This is their home.

HM: On the one hand you have this executive order from the White House, and on the other you have these temporary restraining orders. How do you feel that that airport officials and immigration officers are dealing with the tug of war going on?

OC: I have to say that you know, I was at the airport on Saturday and Sunday for 12 hours each day. And you know, with the staff of the airport, their security, they were great. I mean this is not something that they're accustomed to either. They dealt with protesters, they dealt with attorneys, they dealt with a lot of stuff, they dealt with the back and forth between the CBP and us. They were polite and there's really nothing that they can say or do in response to us. And I think that was understood. With respect to CBP, I mean, that's also a tough call right. I mean the men and women who work for CBP, that are on the line, you know, they receive a direct order coming down, It's clear that that's what happened. Because we didn't really have contact with them, and that's the truth. I mean on the two occasions that I personally spoke with the CBP officer on Saturday, one in person and two times on the telephone, they made it clear that they had been directed not to respond to any of any inquiries, including mine and directed me to speak to public affairs, which is outside of the airport of course and is part of CBP headquarters.

HM: The defenders of this new policy say it's temporary. They describe it as a pause, say it's necessary.

OC: I don't know how this can be a pause for security concerns. In particular, again as it relates to lawful permanent residents. I mean, lawful permanent residents have already been vetted, they are part of our community, this is their home. And so I think that this is, you know I mean a tremendous violation on all sides. With respect to non-lawful permanent residents, I mean to some extent it's the same. I mean, every person who applies for admission to the United States or I should say every person who applies for a visa to come to the U.S. or some other document, they undergo a tremendous amount of vetting. And so I'm not sure that the administration… I'm not sure that they understand the processes that are already in place.

HM: What are you hearing from other lawyers who are at Dulles today?

OC: I'm hearing the same. I mean everyone expresses the same frustration. I mean obviously we are all very concerned about lack of information, about lack of access. I will say, you know, there's a continued… and I think this is heartening across the board, not just for the attorneys who are there but also for different protesters and activists, is that you know, there is a real belief that this is wrong. And as a result, you know, whatever that time is that we put into this project, which looks like it's going to be a lot, that it's worthwhile, because this is what America is about.

HM: Ms. Calderon, I appreciate you talking to us. Thank you very much.

OC: You're welcome and thank you for having me.

HM: All right. Goodbye.

OC: Goodbye.

KG: Ofelia Calderon is an immigration lawyer. She was in Fairfax, Virginia. U.S. President Donald Trump has said his executive order restricting travel from several countries is quote, “not a Muslim ban.” But, after an interview with Rudy Giuliani on Saturday night, some critics are saying it seems like that's at least how it started. Here's the Trump adviser being questioned on Fox News by host Jeanine Pirro.

SOUNDCLIP

JEANINE PIRRO: Does the ban have anything to do with religion? How did the President decide that seven countries? I understand the permanent ban on the refugees…

RUDY GIULIANI: OK.

JP: OK. Talk to me.

RG: I’ll tell you the whole history of it. When he first announced it he said “Muslim ban”. He called me up he said put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally. I put a commission together with Judge Mukasey, with Congressman McCaul, Pete King, whole group of very expert lawyers on this. And what we did was we focused on instead of religion, danger. The areas of the world that create a danger for us, which is a factual basis not a religious basis. Perfectly legal, perfectly sensible and that's what the ban is based on. It's not based on religion it's based on places where there are substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our country.

KG: That was White House adviser Rudy Giuliani speaking on FOX News this weekend. U.S. President Trump in an interview with the Christian Broadcast Network promised to give priority to Christian refugees while banning refugees from seven predominantly Muslim countries. Later in the program the head of a conservative think tank in Washington will tell us why he supports the travel ban and an Iranian scientist who was headed to Harvard tells us about being barred from getting on her flight.

[Music: Electronic]

KG: 762. That's the number of people who were murdered in Chicago in 2016. On January 13^th, that number went up by one as we told you last fall Precious Land was severely injured in May when she was shot randomly. The bullet severed her spine and left her paralyzed. The mother of four children has now died from complications from her injuries. Ms. Land’s mother Stacy Turner was taking care of Ms. Land at home. Here is Miss Turner speaking to As It Happens host Carol Off in October.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Since she was shot, has she come out of the coma? Has she been conscious at all?

STACY TURNER: Yes, she's conscious. She came out of the coma a month-and-a-half after the shooting.

CO: How much movement does she have?

ST: No movement at all.

CH: You have your grandchildren at home, who are the children of your daughter. This is these are precious children: 11, 9, 7 and 6 right?

ST: Yes ma'am.

CO: What does it mean for the children to have their mother home?

ST: They are they very happy. Two of them will not go in the room, but they are happy for her to be home.

CO: Your daughter, Precious was taking her kids to play at a family friend's house in May and this fateful day. She never made it back what happened?

ST: So she dropped them off, she had to come back around, they get to shooting at her car. That’s what I assumed and the police think too that they were shooting at the black car that she drove with black tinted windows. They thought it was one of the gangbangers, but it was my baby.

CO: Where was she shot? Where did the bullet go into her body?

ST: The bullet entered her on her right side of her neck, went around through the back, straight through her spine and logged on her left side of her neck; which is still in her neck.

CO: The reason why we know about your daughter is because the New York Times has been doing a series of stories about the victims of shootings in Chicago. Three-thousand people shot and six-hundred people killed this year in Chicago. Do you feel sometimes that your daughter, Precious is just another statistic in Chicago?

ST: Yes she is because my daughter was shot unjust. She wasn’t able to drop her children off and then comeback because of these shootings. Because these young boys out here got their guns and they’re shooting at everybody.

CO: You have so many people you're taking care of now. So many responsibilities, how about yourself? How are you dealing with all of this?

ST: I did a lot of praying because I can't change what happened and I need to stay healthy to take care of my family. So I'm not stressed anymore. I've got my daughter at home, where she belongs and I'm pretty happy I got my family at home.

KG: That was Stacey Turner speaking with As It Happens host Carol Off back in October her daughter, Precious Land died earlier this month, seven months after being randomly shot in Chicago. There have been no arrests in her case.

Part three: Netherlands abortion, US ban: Iranian at Harvard, US ban: Conservative supporter

Netherlands abortion

Guest: Paul Tang

KG: In one of his first act as U.S. President, Donald Trump signed an executive order that withdrew funding from international aid organizations that help women access abortions. That represents a funding shortfall of $600 million dollars. On Friday, Canada's International Development Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau told As It Happens that Canada will increase its funding. That puts Canada alongside the Netherlands, whose government was the first to announce that it would try to raise enough money in a fund to fill the gap left by President Trump’s order. Now call the campaign “She Decides”. Paul Tang is a Dutch member of the European Parliament and his party, the Dutch Labor Party is behind the “She Decides” fund. We reached him in Brussels.

HM: Mr. Tang, why do you think it is so important to fill the gap left by the U.S. funding cut with this “She Decides” Fund?

PAUL TANG: The order. Donald Trump left a huge gap of $600 million. And this is money well spent. It's spent to improve the position of women contraception, but also safe abortions. And for example, with the money you prevent almost 2 million unsafe abortions and more than 10,000 unnecessary deaths. Let alone the misery that is enforced when abortions are unsafe.

HM: Last week, Canada's International Development Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau told us that Canada would also be increasing its funding to international aid organizations with a focus on women's health. What do you think of that?

PT: I think that's great. That's what we need right now. We fortunately we see countries responding like Canada, but Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and hopefully more countries will follow. We expect more countries to follow. But, we also need organizations and companies and individuals to step in. That's the reason why we also started the www.shedecides.eu page where people can donate.

HM: Now Ms. Bibeau did not say whether Canada's contribution would actually end up going through the “She Decides” fund or whether it would be provided separately does that matter to you?

PT: No not really. In fact, the money from www.shedecides.eu is channeled through the organisations that were affected by Trump's order. So that's fine if it's done directly that's fine, as long as the mire and the money comes in then these organizations can help women.

HM: Now we've been talking to some degree about abortion services, but there are other sexual health services as well. What happens to this money? How does it get distributed?

PT: Well, these are partly money that go to NGOs and partly through the U.N. And this is like I said it's to prevent unsafe abortions, but also to make sure that there's good indication of family planning, contraception available, which is good for health, but also for the position of women making them more independent. It's a sustainable development goal from the United Nations to improve position of women. But, it's also a way for us to stand up against Donald Trump and show that he doesn't own this world that we can have an impact on this world as well.

HM: He doesn't own this world is there more to that though? I'm just wondering your thought in broader terms and when it comes to these kinds of issues and the challenges you might face with this new administration in Washington?

PT: Sure and that's the reason why I think some governments are very cautious to speak out for this initiative, Lilianne Ploumen, our Minister of Development. But, governments may have to be cautious, but individuals don’t have to be they can stand up as they want to. We've seen protests against the Muslim ban and now we see also the initiative to counterbalance counteract the order of Trump and to keep the money flowing to women in developing countries. This is the way we can contribute to a better world. That’s I see it and I think a lot of people see it like that.

HM: Has your government been encountering resistance countries that say they're just too fearful to sign on?

PT: I'm not sure I think the initiative is only a few days old and already several countries have spoken out. By the countries I mentioned, so I'm very hopeful that this will come around. But, of course in these times some are more cautious than others. This is how it goes, so we’ll let diplomacy do its work and I'm confident that more governments will step in. But, like I said it's not just governments. It can also be companies and individuals that step in.

HM: And are you finding that you're getting that kind of response from corporations and individuals.

PT: Absolutely. At least in Holland, but I can see through that that also in Belgium and now in Brussels. I can see that the initiative has caused attention and that people want to contribute, but it needs to get broader and I hope, I think it can and it will. But, that's like I said the initiative just started a few days ago. So it's still developing.

HM: What is it about the Netherlands that positions it to take the lead on this?

PT: Well I like to think that we have a tradition in protecting women's rights and have always had a let’s say a liberal open culture to make sure that the women that need the help got the help. And of course we are now in a government where we have the Social Democratic Minister that also helps. Of course it also depends on the political clout to come from a trust.

HM: If you could speak directly to Donald Trump about this particular issue what would you say to him?

PT: Donald Trump, don't think that we cannot overcome you. We will bring this fight to improve women's rights in your country, but also in developing countries. We will win.

HM: Mr. Tang, thank you for taking time to talk to us.

PT: OK. You're very welcome.

HM: Okay. Goodbye.

PT: Okay. Bye.

KG: Paul Tang is a Dutch member of the European Parliament. He was in Brussels. To listen to our interview with Canada's International Development Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau, go to our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

US Ban: Iranian scientist

Guest: Samira Asgari

KG: Things were looking good for Samira Asgari. She's a scientist living in Switzerland, who landed a job at Harvard Medical School. And this weekend, she set off for Massachusetts, but she didn't make it. Ms. Asgari wasn't allowed on her flight because she's a citizen of Iran. One of the seven countries now subject to a U.S. travel ban. Now Ms. Asgari is back in Switzerland. And we reached her in Lausanne via Skype.

HM: Ms. Asgari, what happened to you when you tried to board your flight to the United States this weekend?

SAMIRA ASGARI: On Saturday morning, I took a flight that was going from Geneva to Boston with connection in Frankfurt. I arrived in Frankfurt, I passed through border control and they checked my passport, my visa for America and Swiss permit. And when I was about to board the plane really at the last time that I was to scan my boarding pass the gate didn’t let me pass through and I was about to try for a second time A man called me by my last name at the moment and asked me if I can exit the queue and if he can speak a few meters away from the queue. He told me that my visa is not valid anymore for traveling to the United States. And of course I mean I had a valid Visa, so I told him, but my visa is valid. It is clear that it is valid. And he told me it is the government of the United States of America that issues the visas and the moment they change their mind your visa is not valid anymore.

HM: What did you think?

SA: I couldn't think. I was so shocked that I could just repeat that my visa is valid. And then just ask him, so what should I do now? But, he basically was not there to help. He was there to announce the situation to me. He was not aggressive he was not impolite, but was just there to announce to me the situation. So, again I repeated, so when can I enter? And he told me not for the next 120 days. And I told him, but my visa will expire by then. He told me that this is a problem, this is an issue that have to see that the United States Embassy in Bern. I asked about my luggage and he told me that they have been already unloaded. And he told me that I should go to Lufthansa’s help desk to ask about the luggage and to book a return ticket to Geneva, which is what I did.

HM: Now you're not entering the United States as a refugee, so the 120 days that's incorrect. Is that right?

SA: Yes. Apparently it’s 90 days, but what I've heard in the Frankfurt Airport is 120 days.

HM: There were indications last week that that President Trump would be putting in some sort of a ban or pause as his administration is calling it before the executive order was actually signed. Did you have concerns about flying?

SA: Yes, I was concerned. So the events that you are talking we here in Switzerland heard about on last Wednesday morning, it was 25th of January. And until that day I still didn't have a visa, so I started my visa process 30th of November and by 25th I still didn't have my visa. In the afternoon I received an email that from embassy in Bern, that was telling me that I'd been granted a visa. I should send them my passport so they can basically scan the visa into my passport, which is what I did. I sent them my passport Wednesday evening, they received it that Thursday morning and Friday just because I was so anxious because of these rumors that came out to be true actually; that I wanted to get my passport as soon as I can. Normally they send passports back by mail, but I called them several times that day on Friday and they've been extremely collaborative. I asked if I can come and collect my passport in person and they agreed. So, I went there to Bern on last Friday I collected my passport in person.

HM: So, where are you staying now? You know what are you doing?

SA: So, for the moment I'm still waiting and hoping for the best. We had to give back our apartment from yesterday, so from this date there will be new tenants in the apartment. We are with friends.

HM: Do you have hope that you will be able to get to the U.S. before the ban is actually up?

SA: That's my hope. Yes, apparently I am allowed to enter the country, but for the moment airlines and I’ve called a number of airlines. I called Swiss Airlines, Lufthansa, Air France and United Air. They do not recognize the ruling by the federal court in Boston and the ban that has been put to the executive order of President and Trump. So for the moment I cannot board a flight and that is the problem.

HM: So just to clarify, the court ruling was that people flying to Boston's Logan Airport that already had their paperwork in place should be allowed to fly into the country. But your airline isn't recognizing that?

SA: Multiple airlines apparently. What Swiss Airlines told us is the information in their systems haven't been updated. And then I told them that even if they Google simply a number key words they see the new the new judgement by Boston federal court. They repeated the information their system has not been updated, so yes I cannot board a flight, but I'm still hopeful.

HM: Have your thoughts on working in the United States changed since this all happened?

SA: No, not even a bit. I have worked with American colleagues and collaborators before. I have a number of really good friends who are American and all my experience with the experiences with American people have been great. So, I have no reason to change my mind about Americans I don't think by the change of President overnight people will change. Besides that Boston is a great city for science. The lab that I'm going to is great lab with great people, so no. If I can go I will go happily.

HM: Ms. Asgari, thank you for talking with us. We appreciate it.

SA: You’re very welcome.

HM: Bye bye. Good luck.

SA: Bye bye.

KG: Samira Asgari is an Iranian scientist who was barred from a flight to Boston this weekend. We reached her in Lausanne, Switzerland via Skype.

[Music: Ambient]

US ban: Pro voice

Guest: Mark Kirkorian

KG: Travelers were left stranded and anxiety mounted even within President Donald Trump's own party. But not everyone is outraged at Friday's executive order. It would temporarily ban all refugees and immigrants from seven predominantly Muslim countries from entering the U.S. And Mark Krikorian thinks it's a good idea. He's executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, a Conservative think tank. We reached him in Washington D.C.

HM: Mr. Krikorian, President Trump has said this executive order balances the compassion with protection. Do you concur?

MARK KIRKORIAN: Generally speaking yes. I mean I think it could have been rolled out better. And I think that limiting the pause on travel of you know of any traveler to those seven countries may actually require expansion. But, you know overall it seems to me a prudent and limited measure to take a deeper look at how we might better keep out people that we don't want to let in.

HM: Let's talk about those seven different countries all of which are Muslim majority, why those ones in particular?

MK: Well those countries that have been identified by Congress in legislation signed by President Obama. Countries with special concern, I mean four of them have no government and are basically jihadist hotspots. Iraq is really kind of three countries at this point. The remaining two Sudan and Iran are state-sponsors of terrorism that have vowed to kill Americans. So there's good reason those countries are on there. Trump did not pick these countries at random.

HM: Now former officials of the Obama administration say after they were identified that vetting was stepped up from anybody involved who was coming from those countries why is that not good enough?

MK: Why would you take President Obama's word for it? That's number one. Number two, in the executive order itself there was specifically a reference to screening not just for violent people, but also ideological screening to keep out people who themselves may well not be violent, but who support the kind of barbaric actions that Islamists have engaged in.

HM: Now of course you know we're not making. I'm assuming you're not assuming that everyone from those countries has those views. Why do you think countries like Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Egypt and Lebanon were not included when as we know, those are that the country is where the 9/11 attackers originated in many see them as potentially an ongoing threat?

MK: Sure. Potentially yes. But, there's a couple of things here. First, 9/11 was 16 years ago and things change. There was no ISIS back then. Yemen was not disintegrating back then. Gaddafi still ran Libya. So things have changed since then, number one. Number two, Egypt in Saudi Arabia for instance are places with more or less functional states that work with us in trying to identify and stop terrorists.

HM: Wasn't that true though a 9/11 times back in 2001?

MK: They might not be doing it well. And frankly before 9/11 neither we nor they took that quite as seriously as we should have. And we have a relationship with Saudi Arabia for instance, which is a frankly a repugnant country to me. But, you know ISIS is a greater threat than Saudi Arabia is at least for now.

HM: There haven't been any deadly attacks on U.S. soil committed by refugees and as we know they go through a very long, stringent vetting process. Do you have any concern that you're looking at people who have gone through great suffering looking to a future in the States and they're being denied that opportunity?

MK: Well there have in fact, been refugee terrorists that we've let in. I mean Somali attacker at Ohio State just a couple of months ago was a Somali refugee. There is an Uzbek we took in as a refugee who was arrested for conspiring to perform terrorist attacks.

HM: I guess we should be clear, neither of those were deadly attacks.

MK: Yeah well great. I mean that's a matter of luck is what that is.

HM: A lot of people are pointing out that a lot of the terrorist acts have been perpetrated by American-born individuals. Do you not maybe need to look inside what's happening in the country in terms of radicalization as closely as this administration is looking those coming into the country?

MK: Sure, well that's I mean the answer is yes of course. And that's part of the reason for this ideological screening.

HM: What evidence do you have that those people have been making in the United States?

MK: The vetting process doesn't even ask for that sort of thing. I mean survey data for the countries that we get a lot of these immigrants from in the Middle East show huge percentages of people who hold very counter modern views.

HM: Aren't religious tests unconstitutional in your country?

MK: They're unconstitutional for citizens, for holding office or any kind of issue among American citizens. But, the first amendment, which guarantees freedom of religion doesn't apply to foreigners abroad.

HM: Over the weekend, we saw some dissent coming from fairly senior members or former members of the intelligence and military establishment in the U.S. and they were saying that they feel that this actually may potentially put U.S. citizens and U.S. military personnel at higher risk; might even increase the actual chance of terrorism. What do you say to that?

MK: I think what's potentially increasing the chance of terrorism is the misrepresentation of what these orders do by the media and by other people. Those who discuss this as a Muslim ban are the ones who are in fact creating those impressions to the extent they exist.

HM: They are going to be those listening to this who are going to hear what you're saying. And many of them would be the people on the weekend who said that this was un-American and immoral as a decision. They may hear your remarks. And here racism and xenophobia, what do you say to them?

MK: I say they need to get out more. You know this is why you have Trump is because of this attempt to narrow discussion, to shame dissent from the standard kind of post-national, post-borders view of the world and it's not just why you have Trump it’s, why you have Brexit, it could be why France ends up having President Le Pen as amazing as that might be later this year.

HM: Mr. Krikorian, thank you.

MK: Thank you.

KG: Mark Krikorian is executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, an American Conservative think tank. He was in Washington D.C.

[Music: Jazz]

Haggis hurling

KG: “We are ye worthy o’ a grace/ As Lang's my arm.” So wrote Robert Burns in his famous “Address to a Haggis” which serves as such a grace the world over on the Bard's birthday, every January 25th. But some haggis lovers feel the traditional Scottish dish — a pudding made of sheep's organs mixed with oatmeal and stuffed in the animal's stomach — is worth more than a simple grace of an arm's length long. It warrants a toss as far as the arm can throw. Hence the annual Haggis Hurling World Championships, which were held yesterday at Burns’ former home of Ellisland Farms, Scotland. More than 80 competitors ranging in age from four to 75 took turns hurling head guesses with all their heft. Nevertheless, the winning throw of 145 feet almost 45 metres failed to come close to besting the world record of 217 feet or 83 metres. Now, depending on your tastes, this sport probably strikes you as a terrible waste of good food or as a better use of haggis than that for which it was designed. And while the history of eating haggis predates pitching it as far as possible Haggis hurling does boast a lengthy history As It Happens first addressed it back in 1977, when Barbara Frum spoke with Scottish Haggis hurler Robin Dunseath, about the upcoming competition held that year in Edinburgh. During that conversation, Mr. Dunseath expounded on the sport's illustrious origins.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBIN DUNSEATH: It comes from a wee village up in the North of Scotland. And the shepherds used to stand at one side of the river and the wives used to stand at the other side of the river. And they used to throw the lunches — the haggis — across the river to their husbands and out of that grew the sport of haggis hurling.

BARBRA FUM: And I suppose it's the kind of food that could take a little bouncing?

RD: No. No, if the haggis hits the ground and bursts. That’s a foul, there's no good eating a haggis lunch that’s been splattered all over the heather. They all eat the Haggis after they’ve been doing the hurling and what happens is anyone who wants to come up and hurl a haggis they come up and first of all they got to wash their hands in some peach you know? That’s to get your hands properly cleansed. And then you stand in a wee barrel and then you have to wait until the haggis hooter blow. And when the haggis Hooter blows then you throw your haggis any way you want to throw your haggis.

KG: That was Scottish Haggis hurler Robin Dunseath explaining the origins of the sport to AIH host Barbara frum in May of 1977. Five days later a somewhat upset Mr. Dunseath was back on the phone with As It Happens guest host Max Ferguson to report an unexpected upset in the competition.

SOUNDCLIP

RD: Oh man, we had a terrible tragedy. A terrible tragedy, I hardly can bear to talk about it, but the new word haggis hurling champion is a man from Australia. He warmed himself up in the barrel and he huffed and he huffed and he hurled his Haggis a hundred and twenty three feet it was the distance between the barrel and striking heather.

MAX FERGUSON: Wow.

RD: And when you think the world record before was 108, so it was a powerful hurl. We hoped maybe the haggis would burst on landing you know because that means it`s a foul hurl. The Scots champion a chap called Roy Black he threw a great hurl of 119 feet and we all thought, man this is it! We had the drums out and all the rest of it. And then this great big Aussie stood in the barrel and he warmed himself up and he hurled and there you are. It was just one of these wee things.

MF: Where did the Canadian come? You mentioned that he was in there last week?

RD: Oh yes. We had a Canadian in there. His was a good hurl. He came fourth he did a good throw of 84 feet. He use an underhand hurl. Our man from Canada, he wound his his arms round and round and round. If he had let the haggis go just a wee bit before he did, it would have gone further you see. But, he just held on to that Haggis that wee fraction too long and up she went, but she went to high and not you know with enough length on her.

MF: Now what's that Australian going to take home with him? A silver-plated haggis or?

RD: No, he’s got himself 36 bottles of whiskey for a start, which is a good prize for a haggis hurling record.

MF: Yes. He got himself what we call “The Golden Haggis Award” and he also gets to eat his haggis.

[/sc]

KG: Scottish Haggis hurler Robin Dunseath, speaking with As It Happens guest host Max Ferguson on May 10^th, 1977.

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