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The AIH Transcript for June 5, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Pushed to the edge. Buffalo police are under fire for shoving a 75 year old demonstrator who has ended up in hospital. A friend tells us about Martin Gugino's peaceful activism.

CH: Shares and sorrows. A top investment economist says the coronavirus may have cut millions of jobs, but it seems to be sending stock markets to new highs.

CO: Saying her name. Breonna Taylor's family is still looking for justice on what would have been Ms. Taylor's 27th birthday. Her grieving aunt calls for consequences for police.

CH: Statue of limitations. After Virginia's governor orders a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee be removed, one Black senator tells us she feels a monumental burden has been lifted from her shoulders.

CO: Labor pains. Nearly two months after she gave birth, a Montreal mother who had COVID-19 has finally been reunited with her baby. One of her nurses says the whole staff is breathing easier now that they're back together.

CH: And big shoes to filch. We revisit Carol's conversation with a German count who lost count of the number of missing shoes that turned up on his property -- footwear that had been stolen by a single fox. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that suspects the culprit had a nose for crime.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'Great relief' at planned removal of Robert E. Lee statue: Virginia senator

Trouble for the Force

Guest: Terrence Bisson

[Crowd chanting: Black Lives Matter]

CH: That's what it sounded like at the major Toronto intersection of Yonge and Bloor today. As it rained, protesters filled the streets, took a knee and raised their fists in the air, chanting "Black Lives Matter." Today, 11 days after George Floyd was killed by Minneapolis police, people around the world continue to protest anti-Black racism. And in Buffalo, New York, solidarity has turned to anger. Yesterday, video footage emerged of police officers shoving a 75 year old demonstrator to the ground. He's now recovering from a head injury in hospital. And two Buffalo police officers have been suspended without pay. Terrence Bisson knows that man to be his friend Martin Gugino. The pair of also done social justice work together through the western New York Peace Centre. We reached Terrence Bisson in Buffalo.

CO: Terrence, what was your reaction when you learned that the man in that video that we shot yesterday is your friend Martin?

TERRENCE BISSON: I first learned that someone I knew named Martin had been hurt, I know three Martins and I realized who it was. He's a wonderful person. And I had a Zoom meeting with him on Monday and he had sent me an email just yesterday.

CO: So you learnt that it was your friend Martin. Before the video was released, Buffalo police were saying that the incident involved a man who had tripped and he fell after a skirmish with protesters.

TB: Oh, my goodness. That's impossible.

CO: What did what do you understand happened?

TB: Martin -- what I know of him is that he would speak to police and he would ask questions like, "Why is what you're doing right?" He would never shout at the police or do anything aggressive. And it seemed from the still that he was talking to a policeman. And very soon after that, he was pushed over by a different policeman -- shoved out of the way.

CO: And he falls back and he lands on his head. You haven't watched the video yourself?

TB: No. No, I haven't. My wife watched it after we were told that there was a video of it.

CO: Why don't you want to see it?

TB: Well, you know, the falling is not what Martin stands for. The standing is what Martin stands for. And anyone can be overpowered by brute force. So that's just a tragedy.

CO: What we can see in the video is that police are advancing in a column and they're wearing riot gear. He walks up to them, appearing to engage them in a conversation or something. Two of them push him back and then he falls, stumbles backwards and lands so painfully. They continue to proceed. And you can see quite clear that he's bleeding from his head. How is Martin doing now?

TB: When we've called the hospital, we haven't been able to talk to him. But there was a news story that the county executive has talked to him and possibly Governor Cuomo. And the reports that we get from them is that he was able to carry on a conversation. So I'm very hopeful.

CO: And from what you know about Martin, what do you think he was trying to do when he walked up to those police and engaged them?

TB: I can only speculate. But I know Martin, if he saw something that he thought it was being done that was wrong, he would question the people doing it and he would have done that to protesters or he would have done that to police if he had seen something that he thought was unjust.

CO: Having read some of his tweets and some of his postings, his engagements are, 'Well, this doesn't make sense. And why you're doing this?' It's questioning more than confrontation.

TB: Yes questioning. He is a person who asks questions to try to make the world a better place.

CO: Just want to point out that Martin is a white man. Why do you think it was important for him to be at the protests yesterday?

TB: I know that he would stand up for any injustice. He would stand up against any injustice. And I could list some of the injustices that I know that he's worked on. When I met him, it was primarily about witness to torture and particularly Guantanamo Bay, maintained by the United States with political prisoners who are essentially in situations of torture, and the illegitimacy of American relations with Cuba and things of that kind.

CO: And he's also an advocate. He was a strong anti-nuclear activist as well. Is that right?

TB: Right. To spread information in the hope that it brings light.

CO: There was a Black protester in Buffalo, John Washington, he wrote on Twitter yesterday "Martin is a true ally and he has fought with us for years." Does that sound like the Martin you know, that he would be an ally of these people on the streets who are supporting George Floyd?

TB: Oh, yes. And I think it's all tangled up in the United States. You know, racism and militarism are incredibly tangled up and economic injustice. And these are all things that Martin wanted to do what he could to stand up against problems.

CO: So you and he both have seen protests. You've been part of things in Buffalo. Have you ever seen anything like this in your streets?

TB: The militarization of the police has created a big problem. That they cannot have a presence without appearing to be actively threatening the very public that they're supposed to serve. I would make a strong guess that that's what Martin was asking them about. Why do you have to appear to be threatening us if you're trying to preserve order? It can be done without threatening us.

CO: That's interesting, because what you can see in the video is that he's gesturing. He's pointing to their batons. And that would actually make sense if that would be the question he was trying to ask.

TB: Yeah.

CO: The two Buffalo police officers who are with their batons and pushing him, they are suspended without pay for the incident. What do you make of that?

TB: It's kind of a tragedy that justice only comes when you have a video recording of an injustice. If the police act in a disciplined manner, that's better than if they act in a threatening manner because it brings out the worst in them.

CO: You mentioned that we wouldn't know if it wasn't for the video. Whoever is taking the video that we can see is subsequently told by the police to move along, to get away. So we don't see what happens after Martin appears to be unconscious.

TB: The feeling was the medics were sent to him. Medics in camouflage. They seem to have come quickly. So there was a sense of responsibility behind it that they realized their mistake. Well, they were human, so they must have realized their mistake.

CO: You trust that Martin is going to make a full recovery?

TB: I do. I do. But that's because in the peace movement, you have to be long term optimists.

CO: Terrence, I really appreciate speaking with you. And thank you for telling us about your friend.

TB: Me too. I just want people to know and see him as a role model for standing up for what they think is right and a role model for the police to restrain themselves always.

CO: Good words. Thank you so much.

TB: Yeah. Thank you.

CH: Terrence Bisson is a friend of Martin Gugino, a 75 year old protester who was pushed to the ground by Buffalo police officers yesterday. Mr. Gugino is in hospital recovering from a head injury.

[Music]

Breonna Taylor Obit

Guest: Bianca Austin

CH: Today should have been her 27th birthday. But today in Louisville, Kentucky, the family and friends of Breonna Taylor are mourning and continuing their calls for justice. Breonna Taylor was killed in March when police on a drug raid forced their way into the apartment where she and her boyfriend were sleeping. Ms. Taylor's boyfriend says police did not announce themselves before breaking in. He shot at them. Three officers fired back and killed Ms. Taylor. None of the officers involved in the shooting have been charged. Bianca Austin is Breonna Taylor's aunt. We reached her in Louisville, Kentucky.

CO: Bianca, in the wake of what's going on across the United States, does it feel that your niece's death is finally getting the attention it deserves?

BIANCA AUSTIN: Most definitely. It is definitely getting the attention she so well deserves, especially after two and a half months of just silence, and our family, just trying to, you know, fight and get her name out there and get her story told and just trying to move forward, getting justice for her and everything. So it's been a rough road. So it's definitely much appreciated that, you know, when we turn on the radio or we turn on the TV, you know, people are saying her name: Breonna Taylor.

CO: And Breonna was shot and killed by police in March. And so over these months, what has come of that? These police officers who are involved, three of them, haven't been charged. But what consequences have there been for those police?

BA: There has been no consequences. None at all yet so far. Greg Fischer, the Mayor of Louisville, you know, his explanation is that there are laws that they can't fire the police, you know, until a thorough investigation is done. But, you know, we're going on over three months now but we still have unanswered questions.

CO: For a Canadian audience who hasn't perhaps known enough about the story of Breonna Taylor and what happened. Can you just give us some details about that? The police arrived with what's called a no knock warrant. They had a search warrant, but they were not required under this search warrant to knock, to let anyone know they're coming in. What happened?

BA: So, I mean, as far as like -- we don't really know what happened. So they said they had a no knock warrant. But yet they knocked. They said they knocked and announced themselves. And then, on one incident they said, they just had a knock and announce warrant. So it was kind of conflicting of their stories on to what kind of warrant this actually was, even if there was any warrant at all. We haven't had anybody to sit down with us and actually tell us, like, these are facts and this is what happened. And this is the only thing we've been asking ssince day one, it is the truth. And we are yet to receive it. And in order for our family to move forward and to grieve, we want to know the truth. We want to know what happened to our baby girl who's no longer with us today. And we have to sit here and celebrate her birthday without her. So it's very heartbreaking. It's very hard. But we're trying to be as patient, you know, as we can be as a family and to support each other. And that's where we're at with things.

CO: She would have been 27 years old today.

BA: She would have been 27 years old today. Yes.

CO: I'm so sorry. But the police, when they came in with this no knock warrant, she was in bed. They shot her multiple times, I understand.

BA: Yes. She was sleeping. She was sleeping peacefully in her bed, you know. And they came to her home and terrorized her basically. I don't think she was given the opportunity to even, you know, process what's going on or open the door or anything like that.

CO: And her boyfriend was with her, Kenneth Walker. And he was arrested for pulling a gun. I understand it was a legal firearm that he had. What's happened with Kenneth Walker?

BA: Well, he was arrested on charges of attempted murder on a police officer. And I guess during the investigation, they found him not to be negligent. So the charges have been dropped against him as far as the state goes. So all charges against Kenneth Walker have been dropped. But there is still a federal investigation going on. So I'm assuming that if they find him negligent for whatever reasons, that he still could possibly be charged. But, as of today, Kenny is a free man.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about Breonna, just what she was like?

BA: Breonna was just a family sweetheart. She really was just an all-around good person, you know. She was the type of person that lights the room up when she comes. You just feel joy just from her presence, just being around her. She loved to laugh and smile and just hang out with her family. We are really missing that today. We really are.

CO: Do you think if you able to get at least some answers to those questions that you're posing, that it would go some distance to giving you comfort?

BA: I believe it is the first step to get to a long process, but I think we need those answers in order for us to even kind of start moving forward and get any type of comfort or peace with this.

CO: And are there tributes, are there people recognizing, especially today on her birthday, Breonna Taylor, recognizing her as a victim of the situation with police in Louisville?

BA: Yes. I know Christopher 2X has a tribute downtown, which was today at the Jefferson County Memorial Park. And it's a few organizers that are going to be down there organizing the tribute and just having stuff on her behalf. Then we also have a memorial set up for tomorrow also. So we got a lot of things planned for the next two days and hopefully we want everybody to come out and just really celebrate her life and what a beautiful person she was.

CO: Bianca I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BA: No problem.

CO: Bye.

BA: All right. Have a good day.

CO: You too.

CH: Bianca Austin is the aunt of Breonna Taylor. We reached Ms. Austin in Louisville.

[Music]

Regina Profiling

Guest: Jennifer McClellan

CH: For more than a century, a monument to Robert E. Lee has towered over visitors to Richmond, Virginia. But soon the Confederate General statue will be history. Yesterday, Virginia Governor Ralph Northam pledged to remove the statue as soon as possible, saying his state no longer preaches a, quote, "false version of history." The announcement comes days after protesters vandalized the statue, attempting to pull it down. Jennifer McClellan is a Democratic state senator in Virginia and the vice chair of the Black Caucus. We reached her in Richmond.

CO: Senator McClellan, what does it mean for you personally to hear the governor say this statue be coming down soon?

JENNIFER MCCLELLAN: It was a surprise, but also a great relief, as if a burden that I didn't fully realize was there has been lifted off of my shoulder.

CO: You actually felt that, did you? You felt this sense that something had been removed from you?

JM: Yes. A sense of relief. You know, as a 47 year old Black woman born and raised in the south, you just kind of condition yourself to ignore these monuments and these symbols and all of the trauma that they trigger. And then there's certain moments when that trauma bubbles through. But just the constant trying to shield yourself from it, you don't realize or I didn't realize how exhausting that was until I heard the governor say "It's coming down."

CO: I can't imagine how you could ignore this thing. I mean, it's 40 feet of granite pedestal and then a 21 foot statue of Robert E. Lee in the most prominent part of your city. What is that statue of this Confederate General, what does it symbolize for African-Americans?

JM: Well, when it was put up 103 years ago, John Mitchell, who was the editor of the Black newspaper, you know, really said that it was a symbol of White supremacy and a lost cause narrative that was beginning that would only cause already open wounds to continue to fester. And he was prophetic when he said that because they do symbolize not just the trauma of slavery and the Civil War and everything it represents, but it was put up at a time when Black Americans had gained economic, political and social power and freedom. And then right at the end of reconstruction, as the old south White power base came back, they put these monuments up to put Black people back in their place at the same time that they were instituting Jim Crow laws to take away political, social and economic power. So the monuments also symbolize that backlash.

CO: What is it about this moment that has perhaps galvanized leaders to act on almost exactly 130 years after that statue went up?

JM: Well, I think it's the latest in a cycle that sort of early 1900s was the first backlash. And then we saw a very slow rise of power again and then a backlash in the 1960s. And then again with the rise that culminated in the election of Barack Obama and a backlash with the 2016 election of Donald Trump. And this time it was almost like the straw that broke the camel's back where people said, you know what? Enough. And I almost can't explain it, but I felt a palpable change in the air. It's not just enough to protest and say this is wrong and then go back to life as normal. Like it's almost as if every generation and every race has been galvanized to finally address systematic inequity, not just racism, but systematic and equity that resulted from racism.

CO: There was an extraordinary image this week to see the face of George Floyd projected on to that monument. I don't know if you saw that.

JM: Yes.

CO: I've seen images of it. A chill go through you when you see those two things come together.

JM: Yes, it's poetic justice, I think. And I think between that and the lightning strike of the Washington Monument, which a young woman who grew up in D.C. who said when she was raised, you know, they thought that the Washington Monument looks like a giant Klan member. And so to see that lightning strike hit the Washington Monument at the same time that you see George Floyd's face on the Lee Monument, again, it's almost as like the universe is saying enough, it's time for us to move forward.

CO: All right. There are those who say it's not time to move forward. And the governor seems to have acknowledged that there are those who regard Robert E. Lee as a man of honour, his statue is part of the history. Republican State Senator Amanda Chase, who's running for governor, said on Facebook, this is all about shoving this down people's throats and erasing the history of the White people. What do you say to Senator Chase?

JM: She's absolutely wrong. And I think that's the most ridiculous statement that I have ever heard. This is not about erasing history. This is about putting that history in context and acknowledging that that statue is more than just a depiction of Robert E. Lee. And her statement ignores all of the pain and trauma that is wrapped up in that statue that I just talked about. And Black people and other people of colour, native Virginians, their history has been erased going on 400 years. It is now time to tell a complete, truthful story about our history. And that monument was the beginning of a lie, told to put Black people back in their place. The lie of White supremacy. And we have got to acknowledge that if we are ever going to heal as a nation going forward.

CO: Do you expect, though, there still will be pushback, given that previous occasions when it's been proposed to remove statue, those have turned up with lawsuits? Do you think that will happen again?

JM: Maybe. I don't know. But I think the right thing may not necessarily be the easy thing, but it's still the right thing. And I think there are more people who believe it is time to move forward to heal than don't.

CO: Senator McClellan I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JM: Thank you very much.

CH: Jennifer McClellan is a Democratic state senator in Virginia and the vice chair of the Virginia Legislative Black Caucus. We reached her in Richmond, Virginia. And you can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Wine

CH: Yeast and toilet paper may still occasionally be hard to come by, but some things are not. For weeks now, potatoes and pigs have made headlines for their overabundance. And those surpluses make some sense. Fewer restaurant goers mean fewer French fries. And meat plant closures have been a problem for pork producers. But there are certain gluts whose origins are a bit harder to distill. Sure, it's hard to make perfect fries at home, but drinking wine at home is still possible I hear. And yet, French wine makers have now joined the ranks of alcohol producers who are apparently struggling to offload their supply. So much so that the government agency FranceAgriMer has announced that some three million hectoliters of unsold wine need to be distilled stat to make room for a new season's harvest. If you dismiss that as sour grapes, you should know winemakers are stoically squeezing some extra life from their burgundy by turning it into a whole new source of coveted hand sanitizer. That measure required special dispensation from Brussels. But chances are that anyone who tried it without permission would have been caught red handed.

[Music]

Part 2: Market Rebound

Market Rebound

Guest: David Rosenberg

CH: Don't tell the stock market, but apparently there is a pandemic going on. The COVID-19 shutdown has jacked up unemployment and shuttered successful businesses, and health officials continue to warn that a second wave could be on its way. But the stock markets are surging, so much so that some indexes have already climbed out of the hole that they fell into back in March. David Rosenberg is the chief economist with Rosenberg Research and Associates. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: David, can you explain what is causing this buoyancy in the markets, given what the economy appears to look like from most people's perspective?

DAVID ROSENBERG: Well, I think there's a whole host of reasons. I think the market is getting very excited over the economy reopening, you know, across the States, all 50 states now, most parts of the world, even in Canada, at least outside of Ontario. So there's lots of excitement that we didn't have to close the economy down through the summer and fall. So there's that aspect of it that we're going to get out of this deep recession earlier than anticipated. And on top of that, we have this tremendous fiscal and monetary policy response. So it's really two things that's the excitement over the end of the recession, we'll see if that plays out. But it's also the reality that the central banks are just pumping vast amounts of liquidity into the economy and the marketplace.

CO: Is it also predicated on an idea that somehow this is over and that we're going to have a vaccine soon and that everything is going to go back to normal?

DR: I think that that is...as I look at the S&P 500 and I see that in a matter of three months, we've gone from a 13 forward price earnings multiple to 22. Yeah, we're back to valuations in the stock market, but we haven't seen since the peak of the dot com bubble back in 2000. So I think it's safe to say now that, you know, I think today intraday the Nasdaq 100 actually hit an all-time high. So the market definitely in terms of pricing, sees a V-shape recovery. And I think the only way that you get a V-shape recovery is just logically is that things go back to normal. And things only go back to normal if we get a vaccine. When you trace this through, I think that the market is thinking that we are going to get an announcement on some successful or maybe more than one successful, you know, phase three clinical trials that proved to be effective and that the market is thinking that that's going to pave the way for broad distribution by early next year. I think if we don't see that by the end of the summer, because that's being priced in, I think there's room for a lot of disappointment.

CO: Right. So either the markets know something that we don't or they're banking on something that doesn't really exist because where is the evidence that we're going to have a vaccine by the fall?

DR: I don't think there is any evidence. But, you know, when you get Anthony Fauci coming on and saying that he's cautiously optimistic that there's going to be a vaccine, the market just leaps on that. I mean, they ignore the cautious part, but they love the optimistic part of that phrase. So it's a great question. You know, if you're taking a look at the history of this thing, everybody thought at the beginning it's just a flu, don't worry about it. In fact, Mr. Market -- you know you say what does the market know? The market back in January and February was treating this just as a flu. But it's not a flu. It's a coronavirus. And actually, the success rate for flus in terms of vaccines is much higher. Historically, it takes an average of four years to come up with a vaccine in general. Now, of course, we have over 100 scientific departments globally working on this day and night. But I'm sensing that this is what the markets are pricing in. And it certainly is not my view. I'm looking at the stock market right now and it's like I'm watching an auction at Christie's. [Chuckles] I'm watching these people going crazy, you know, bidding up Rembrandt for hundreds of millions of dollars. And I'm sort of watching it because the market is really stupidly priced right now in my opinion, and becoming more stupidly priced. But it's called the greater fool's theory for a reason.

CO: So this V-shaped recovery, as you're saying, that we go to the bottom and then have this surge. When does it start looking more like the beginning of a W-market? And what do you expect to happen in the fall?

DR: Right. Well we saw that with the employment numbers. So although there was, especially in the U.S., a lot of very unusual elements within that report that I question the veracity of it. But look, we all know that the economy started slowing down just by virtue of the fact that people became cautious before the lockdowns. Now, it makes perfect sense that as you reopen, you're going to get more economic activity. And so we're going to get, I like your letter of the W because we are going to get probably a halfway increase, so we could be down 50 percent. The reality, about a 50 percent down in GDP and this is called bear market math is that you have to go up 100 percent to fill the hole. And I think we'll probably see something more like 2025. Well that will get people all excited. And it's just natural that we're going to get some sort of bounce by virtue of the fact that we're reopening. The question also is going to be demand. You can reopen the economy, but is the consumer demand going to be there? And I think that there's going to be a long lag on that score and it's going to affect a lot of businesses. We'll see more bankruptcies. Of course, the third quarter, we're going to get a recovery. And then the big question is going to be, is there follow through in the fourth quarter and beyond? And I actually think there's lots of question marks. I personally believe that we're going to have a third quarter bounce and then a fourth quarter relapse. And that's why I'm not chasing the market right now.

CO: Now, David, are you just a pessimist? I mean, is it that others are feeling pretty good about this, and you're not. Are you just kind of wet blanket?

DR: No, I'm not. I'm not bearish, but everybody seems to make up their mind about whether you're just a negative or the donkey, because you're not bullish on the stock market, as if the stock market is the only market in the world. There's no market for commodities. There's no market for precious metals. There's no market for real estate. There's no market for bonds. It's just all about the stock market. But I'll tell you, I probably did like the stock market a lot more at a 13 multiple than at the 22 multiple. And if we revert to a 13 multiple, which I think we probably will, I will come on your show and I'll pound my fist on the table and say I am extremely bullish on the stock market. You have my word on that.

CO: [Chuckles] We'll wait for that. David thank you.

DR: My pleasure.

CH: David Rosenberg is the chief economist at Rosenberg Research and Associates. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Stephen Jerome

CH: He weaves magic, but more literally, Stephen Jerome is a master basket weaver. And now he's being recognized as such by the province of Quebec. Mr. Jerome's beautiful baskets are rooted in Mik'maq tradition that's been passed down through generations. And it's his full-time job. He shares his craft with his community in Gesgapegiag to keep the tradition alive. This week, he was recognized as a master of living heritage, a title that celebrates ancestral knowledge and information. Stephen Jerome spoke with CBC's Breakaway about what that recognition means to him and described what the baskets look like.

STEPHEN JEROME: Well, there's the ones with the big handle and they have the God's eye. They have ribs on them. They're very sturdy. They're built tough. My great grandfather, he was known for the rib basket, tough rib basket with the big wood and everything. So I make the same ones because he taught my father and my father taught me so.

ALISON BRUNETTE: You talked about basket weaving being a way of life for you, but a therapy as well. What did you mean by that?

STEPHEN JEROME: Well, you know, I battled drugs and alcohol before. And right there now I'm 15 years sober, totally sober.

ALISON BRUNETTE: Congratulations.

STEPHEN JEROME: I use to join AA and all that. They said find a pastime. I've always had a pastime, but I've just never used it right. So right there now I go into my shop next door. This might sound offensive, but my shop, it's called the, because I work with black ash, there's a big sign in the front that says "Ash Hole." You know, it almost sounds wrong, you know. But, you know, it's therapeutic. It's passion. It's a way of my life, you know. I am doing that till the day I die, I'm sure.

ALISON BRUNETTE: What does it mean for you to be recognized as a master of living heritage in terms of that recognition, the living heritage part? What does that mean for you?

STEPHEN JEROME: Oh, it just means world for me, because I've been working hard all my life you know. I haven't been going out and say, hey, look what I can do. I have just been going with the flow and just doing my thing, what I love to do. And, you know, it just paid off. And I'm going to be continuing to do the same thing.

CH: That was Stephen Jerome speaking with the CBC's Alison Brunette. Mr. Jerome has been recognized as a master of living heritage in Quebec for his basket weaving.

[Music]

Sophie Gravel

CH: The reunion took place late last month, but Sophie Gravelle wasn't free to talk about it until now. Ms. Gravel is the nurse who runs the Mother and Child Trajectory Program at Sainte-Justine Hospital in Montreal this morning, she told Mike Finnerty of CBC Montreal about a woman who had no idea she was COVID positive until she was tested after going into labour. Months before her due date. When the child was born, he tested negative but needed a respirator because he was so many weeks premature. Meanwhile, the mother had to be isolated until she tested negative twice and the baby was stuck outside of the country because of the pandemic. I'll let Ms. Gravel, pick up the story from there.

SOPHIE GRAVEL: The time it took for her to get tested negative was taking forever. And everybody here was heartbroken because the baby was born premature at 26 weeks. And it took the mother 55 days to get finally negative. And throughout that time the whole unit, the whole staff was rooting for her. We were calling her every day. We were Facetiming her with the baby. The lactation consultant was texting her, speaking to her on the phone every day. And we all felt we were heartbroken because the mother was alone at home with the baby here. She was expressing her milk every day, twice a week, she was coming to the hospital giving her breast milk so we can give to the baby. And every time she was coming to deliver the breast milk, she was also being tested for the COVID-19 and she was not able to come and see the baby.

MIKE FINNERTY: What was it like when mother and child were finally able to be together?

SOPHIE GRAVEL: I said to myself on the weekend, I kept thinking about her and I said, what can we do to welcome her like the biggest welcome she's ever seen? So I thought about it. I don't know how to say this thing in English, but it's...

MIKE FINNERTY: Like a ring of honour. So you had people standing and applauding.

SOPHIE GRAVEL: Yeah. Ring of honor. That's it. So that's what I thought about doing for her because she deserves this. She deserved this because of her courage, her resilience and she deserved it. I would have gotten the moon for her. So in the morning at 7:15 we had a staff meeting, it lasts five minutes, it's called the Hot Five. And I told the nurses at that point, we're waiting for the second negative result of the mother. And if it's negative, she's coming in. You should have seen the faces of all the nurses in the unit. Everybody was having a teary eye. And they said, what can we do for her? And I said, we're going to do a ring of honour, we are going to applaud her and we're going to be there for her. So as soon as she came out of the elevator, we were there standing there. All the doctors, nurses, everybody was out in the corridor waiting for her and applauding her. And at one point, I even thought she was going to faint. And we did everything we could to make this moments unbelievable for her. And we were so happy to have them reunited.

MIKE FINNERTY: How is the baby now?

SOPHIE GRAVEL: The baby's doing very well. Very well. And, you know, he was on a ventilator. And do you imagine that when the mother came in, she held the baby skin-to-skin for, I think, six consecutive hours. And the morning after, the baby was breathing on his own -- the morning after she arrived. And I'm telling you this story and I've got chills. And now he's doing very very well. And the mommy is here all the time. And it's a very very happy ending for all of them. And he's going to be going home soon, maybe within a month. He's going home with his mother.

CH: Sophie Gravel is the nurse who runs the Mother and Child Trajectory Program at Sainte-Justine Hospital in Montreal. She was speaking to Mike Finnerty on CBC Montreal's Daybreak.

[Music]

From our archives: Shoe Stealing Fox

CH: Eventually, I knew my investigation would bring me here to a forest in the sleepy village of Frohnen in Germany, to the former headquarters of a brazen thief whose store with impunity for months and never got caught. Until the day, a forest ranger stumble on a sickening stash deep in the woods. Dozens and dozens of slightly mutilated shoes. That's just a brief clip from my new 17-part True Crime podcast "Shoe Done It" and an extremely in-depth analysis of one of the most shocking crime waves ever to grip that small German community. Featuring two fascinating central characters, Count Rudolf von Kesselstatt whose sprawling property was where the thief deposited the filched footwear -- and the brilliant, enigmatic thief itself: a fox with an apparent foot fetish. Carol spoke with Count Rudolf von Kesselstatt in June of 2009.

CO: Count von Kesselstatt, when did people in Frohnen first discover that their shoes were disappearing?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Since about nearly a year. The last six months it got more and more.

CO: And what kinds of shoes were disappearing then?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: All kinds of shoes from jogging shoes to very heavy working shoes. And mostly just one of these two.

CO: And what were the theories in town about who was taking the shoes?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: That was a big problem because everybody thought perhaps the children from the neighbourhood or perhaps that dog of the neighbour, and it was already people thinking about, who is not so good with me anymore?

CO: [Chuckles] And so how many shoes disappeared?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: I think it should be nearly 200.

CO: You've now finally tracked down the thief. Is that correct?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Yeah, actually in our woods. Yes.

CO: You were cutting down trees and who have you discovered is actually stealing the shoes?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: When we were looking at a special part where we wanted to cut down some trees, we actually found one or two shoes underground there. After looking more and more, we found holes in the ground with more shoes. And when we really looked at it exactly, we found that these holes would dug by a fox.

CO: A fox. You're sure that it's a fox had stolen these shoes?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Yes, definitely. It's a house of the fox in the ground. And she has got young ones down there. One can see that exactly because they are playing around there. And we found in front of that holes and in the holes, which we could tear out so we could exactly see 86 shoes. And there was something like, I think eight or nine pairs.

CO: Now, why do you think this fox was stealing the shoes?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: I think it's just like you're a lady why have you got hundred and twenty pair of shoes at home?

CO: Well, to wear them. [Laughs]

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Okay. [Laughs] And he wants to play with them.

CO: So you think these are just toys?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: I think that they are just toys. And when we could see that from a few shoes it took the inside of the sole. It took out. So it could also be that he loves cheese.

CO: That's disgusting. [Laughs] So you think there might be little things to eat inside those shoes?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: No, no. Not the shoes he was eating. That's just -- how do you call those? -- the shoe ropes.

CO: The shoe laces.

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: The shoe laces. It seems so that the young foxes were tearing at the shoe laces and biting the shoe laces. Nearly all shoe laces, somebody was biting on it.

CO: Some kind of protein in those. [Laughter]

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Hope so.

CO: So what are you going to do with all those shoes that you've recovered?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Yesterday, we put them out in front of our cafe, which was quite famous. So many shoes in one row. And we had an announcement in the newspaper that if people could come and try and get their shoes. And between 70 and 100 people came, were looking at the shoes. And there was one woman with a big family, she took six shoes home but there were still four more missing.

CO: But how many pairs did you find?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: We found something about 16-18 pairs. And the rest were just one part of a pair.

CO: And in the end, what was the final count? I'm sorry for the pun.

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: It was 122, I think.

CO: How many have now been reclaimed?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Something about 30-35.

CO: Did you lose any shoes?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: No, because I'm not leaving my shoes outside of my door.

CO: So there's no shoes outside the palace then?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Right. But in the last two days, more shoes disappeared again. And we don't want to kill that fox because he has to care for his young ones, first of all. And second, we love the foxes in the woods. We just can say everybody keep your shoes inside then they won't be stolen.

CO: And what do people of Frohnen say when you warn them they should keep their shoes indoors?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: I don't think they will do it. But they're really amused about this story and about all these shoes. And I'm sure there are lot more shoes inside or under the ground.

CO: In the foxes den.

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Right.

CO: It's quite a fox. [Laughs] Have you named the fox yet?

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: No, we didn't give him a name. It's our fox and that's it.

CO: Some say he should be called the Imelda after Imelda Marcos.

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Okay. [Laughs]

CO: Count von Kesselstatt thank you for speaking with us.

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: You're welcome.

CO: Bye bye.

RUDOLF VON KESSELSTATT: Have a nice time. Bye bye.

CH: From our archives, there was Carol speaking, was Count Rudolf von Kesselstatt about a local fox who had stolen dozens of his neighbours shoes in 2009.

[Music]

Ideas Promo

CH: All this week, the program "Ideas" has been revisiting The Truth About Stories: A Native Narrative. That's the title of the Massey lectures by writer Thomas King tonight. The last of the lectures analyzes how Indigenous people have been treated by governments in North America, a subject that reminds Thomas King of a story the time that Coyote, the Trickster, convinced some ducks to donate their feathers to make him a coat.

THOMAS KING: Even bear was impressed. They're okay, said bear. If you like that sort of thing. [Crowd laughs] "Look at me," Coyote cried as he ran through the woods and over the mountains and down into the valley, feathers trailing behind him, flashing in the light. "Look at me." But Coyote was not very careful with the feathers. He didn't clean them or straighten them or fluff them up, as the ducks had done. And after a few weeks, the feathers were bent and dirty and ragged and they looked very very sad, for they no longer shimmered and glowed. We can't have this, said Coyote, and he threw the feathers away and went back to the river. When the duck saw Coyote without the feathers they had given him, they were concerned. "What happened to all our feathers?" Said the ducks. "The human beings took them," said Coyote. "They caught me while I was sleeping." "How horrible!" Said the ducks. "What's worse," said Coyote, "is I need more feathers." "More feathers?" Shriek the ducks. "Absolutely not. No, no, no, no, no!" Then, said Coyote, puffing out his chest as best he could, "We'll fight them together." "Fight? Fight whom?" Said the ducks who were well versed in the rules of grammar. [Crowd laughs] Human beings, of course, said Coyote, for they could be very fierce when they don't get what they want.

CH: Writer Thomas King from his 2003 Massey lectures The Truth About Stories. You can hear the final talk tonight on Ideas with Nahlah Ayed after As It Happens.

[Music]

Part 3: Film follows Syrian doctor's journey to reunite her family torn apart by war

"Reunited"

Guest: Rana Agha & Mira Jarjil

CH: In the opening scene of the documentary "Reunited" you see a black inflatable boat in the water near Greece. It's filled with men, women and children, and it's dark outside. On that boat is Rana Agha. She's wearing a red life jacket. She talks about her family and where she would like to go in Europe.

RANA AGHA: [Crying] This is the first time I get taken apart from my children. We're always together. [Cross-talking] Any country. We will be safe again, together again, family again.

CH: It would be over two years before Ms. Agha would see her children in person again. After fleeing the war in Syria, her two sons ended up in Turkey. She ended up in Denmark and her husband was in Canada. The documentary Reunited tells the story of this family's separation and the bureaucracy and heartache that Ms. Agha had to deal with before she was able to have her sons by her side again. The film is part of a Hot Docs film festival, which is running online this year until tomorrow. Mira Jargil is the film's director. She's in Copenhagen. And Rana Agha is in Odense, Denmark.

CO: Mira Jarjil and Rana Agha, welcome to As It Happens.

BOTH: Thank you very much.

CO: Rana, I want to start with you. When you first arrived in Denmark, when you left to go to Europe, did you actually think it would take so long before you would ever see your children again?

RANA AGHA: No, of course not. When I sat with my two kids so on the table discussing this issue, we supposed that in six months we'll be together again. And this is what I promised my children. This is my promise. Because all the people here in Denmark told me that it would take no longer than six months. But unfortunately, everything is upside down and changed. And, you know, this is life. Nobody can be sure.

CO: Right. When you say you sat down at the table, was that in Turkey that you had that conversation?

RA: Yes. Yes.

CO: And that's where you had gone after leaving Syria with your family. You were in Turkey. But you knew you didn't want to stay or couldn't stay there. Why didn't you bring the two boys with you at that time?

RA: They were so much afraid and they told me we cannot do it. It's so much dangerous. And it sounds like it's a mission impossible for them. So I decided to do it alone. And maybe I also cannot imagine that I would take two of my children with me because maybe I can handle being in face with danger. But my children, I cannot. It is so much difficult.

CO: You had two sons, Nidal and Jad. They were fifteen and nine when you left them behind in Turkey you thought for a couple of months. And then you left without them. And they were living by themselves, right?

RA: Yes. But for a period of time, it's a long period of time. I sent them first to Syria, to their grandmother. At that time, it was okay. And travelling was not so much dangerous. It was okay. So I prefer to make them stay with their grandmother. But after a while when I'm here, and it took a long time as things became so much dangerous in Aleppo so my friend, an inspector, suggested that he will take them to Turkey. In Turkey, I said yes. So they stayed alone for a long time until I finished my paper.

CO: You mentioned Aleppo and of course people who follow this story about Syria, we know that Aleppo is a violent, dangerous place. You were a pediatrician in Aleppo and your husband was a doctor for Syria's national soccer team, but also a doctor -- very important to have them. But also, it was dangerous for doctors, wasn't it? What were the risks to you and your family living in Syria during the war?

RA: You know what? As a doctor, you have a duty or responsibility. You have a responsibility to help all the people. All those people who are in need for help. But the thing is in a war when you help someone who belongs to one -- what do we call it? -- one bank of the river [chuckles] the other people will be angry. They will become angry and say, you must stop doing that. And you cannot stop. I cannot stop doing that. It is my job to help people, whatever they are. I don't care if they belong to any place or any party or anything. I don't care. I just want to help them but that didn't work.

CO: We have on this program spoken with a number of doctors from Syria who said the same thing, that anyone who came, they would treat them and that put their lives in danger. So you knew you had to leave and you wanted to get to Europe. I just wanted to ask the filmmaker, Mira Jargil -- your documentary begins a year after that clip we heard from Rana at the beginning of the documentary on the boat. How did you learn about Rana's story?

MIRA JARGIL: I have a friend -- when Rana applied for family reunification, it was rejected. And he was like one of the judges to look at her case and to see that she had the right to have family reunification. So he knew about her and about her story and her boys. And he was just really moved by it. And then he told me about her and, you know, the whole thing. And he asked Rana if he could give me her number. And to begin with, I thought that -- and he is, you know, our friend, he is like the number one expert in Denmark, he's a professor in refugee rights. And he thought also actually him as a professor and expert thought that when they had approved that she was allowed to have a family reunification, it would happen really fast, but it didn't. And it took one and a half year since I met Rana for her to be reunited with her children. And I thought that that I was going to make a film where they would come to Denmark pretty fast and it would be a film about integration and, you know, how is it to see each other...

CO: A happy ending. You were expecting that. And you do get a happy ending, but two and a half years later for Rana -- one and half years after you started documenting this. And this is in your country of Denmark, where much like Canada, a place where refugees come, you expect your country to help people. So for you as a Dane, what was it like to see your country drag its feet for all that time for this woman and her children?

MJ: Yeah, I was actually pretty shocked that this was the process and also about the bureaucracy that she met. And it was like really Kafkaesque system and very difficult to understand even for me who understands language. I think it was pretty devastating to look at. And also, at this point, you know, if you are a doctor, you have certain rights. The rules in Denmark is that if you are a doctor, you're allowed to have a family reunification from day one. It's a human right, considered a human right. But at that time, if you're from Syria and you're not a doctor and you don't have special rights, then you can apply after one year. Family reunification after one year. But now they have changed the rules that you can only apply for family reunification after three years.

CO: So even it's even worse now. Rana did you feel that you were in a good position? How difficult was it for you to do the navigating through all these bureaucracies you had to go through?

RA: You know what? I was shocked with this procedure because I suppose that it would be more comfortable than that. But step by step, I used to accept things, you know, like life of war is just like a school. We learn a lot. So we changed. We learned.

CO: But all the different places you went and you phoned: the police station, the lawyers, the government officials. At one point you go to an embassy of Turkey and you have travel documents you want to get done. We just want to play a bit of that part of the documentary so people get a taste of what you went through. Here it is.

RA: [Soundclip] On home page, there is nothing but your number but when you transfer me to a person he told me it's not his business to answer my question. So I need the number to call...[Woman on call replies] Okay. There's no number to be in touch and to know about my passport?

WOMAN ON PHONE: No. Okay? [Hangs up phone] [Soundclip ends]

CO: And she hung up on you. That was a clip of you trying to get some answers from a department in Denmark about your passport. That's all you needed. All you wanted. Rana how frustrating was that?

RA: [Laughs] Maybe I cried a lot in the dark for that. But as a public I can see. Don't tell anyone. They have a reason all the time. So I must accept that reason. [Chuckles]

MJ: And I must say that I really admire that she was able to be so patient. Because after this phone call, I was so full of anger and I called the woman who hung up on her and I yelled at her. But what she did, she just hung up again. So I think that the way that Rana managed to handle the situation is much wiser because I think we can learn from her. [Laughs]

CO: But Rana, I mean, lots of people have hit these kinds of bureaucracies and frustrations over travel documents or whatever. But the background to this: are your children. Your two boys that you are separated from. And the emotional pain that no one seemed to take that into consideration when you were pleading with them to help you. Did you feel that your requests to be with your kids just fell on deaf ears?

RA: The thing is because the case is so much important for me, I can continue fighting.

CO: And what kept your hopes up? How did you keep your hopes up?

RA: The hope is inside us all the time. If you are in these kinds of circumstances, I will tell you, you will see that you have a great power inside. A great hope. And you cannot imagine that when you are in peace. But under these bad circumstances, under the war, you will be another one and you will be another person. You will surprise yourself. When I look to myself in the mirror, I keep telling myself this is not you, this is another one, another woman who has great power. I'm surprised. So this is the situation.

CO: That is definitely the woman I see in this documentary Rana, is you having that courage to keep going back.. And I'll just tell people they're listening to As It Happens and I'm speaking with Mira Jargil and Rana Agha about this film called Reunited. It's part of the Hot Docs film festival. It tells the story of a family from Syria separated across three different countries. And Mira, you go to Turkey to see the two boys after Rana is denied permission to travel just to see them. You go to see them. How did you find the boys when you got there?

MJ: Of course, my hope was that Rana and I could go and visit them together. But then her visa was rejected. And then Rana and I talked about the possibility of me going alone and filming them because Rana thought it was a good idea for me to meet them.

CO: And how were they when you got there?

MJ: Yeah, I met two really really beautiful and very very clever young boys and also two boys with very serious eyes, especially Nidal, as the big brother he had a really big responsibility, of course, because he had to be a parent for Jad and to manage everything themselves.

CO: And they're in Turkey, where we know that -- well, Turkey has taken in so many refugees from Syria and on one side it is generous to do so. But a lot of people very unhappy with all the Syrians who were there. How were the boys being treated by people in Turkey?

MJ: Yeah. You know, by the Turkish people, it was very difficult for them because nobody wanted to play with them because they were from Syria. And the situation in Turkey is, you know, it's a state under emergency. So.the military is allowed to to whatever and the Turkish people felt that Syrian people were taking their jobs. And so there was a lot of racism against Syrian people. And they could feel that.

CO: And you as an adult, as a grown up, you were perplexed why it was taking so long, why it was difficult. How hard was it for these boys to understand why they couldn't go and be with her mother?

MJ: Yeah, of course. You know what? I think they could feel that how much Rana was doing to make it happen. And she, you know, phoned them several times days and trying to be like a parent through Facetime and Skype. And I think hat was what helped them. You know, for me, it was also -- it was an examination of how you hold your strength, you know, while being isolated from everything that fills your life with meaning and joy. But I think that was why they kept hoping.

CO: And course, we should mention that the boys are in Turkey. Rana is in Denmark. But Rana, your husband is in Canada.

RA: Yes.

CO: He's living in Ottawa and trying to become a permanent resident in Canada so that maybe the family can reunite there. So Mukhles is in Ottawa, he's working and he's feeling really badly about this. He's feeling that no one knows his wife is in Denmark. No one knows that he's working in a restaurant and not as a doctor. I just want to play a clip of Mukhles in Canada, here it is from the documentary.

MUKHLES: [Soundclip] So I make myself busy to don't think about my case. I work, work, work, work, work, work. Not all of the people there know that my wife is in Denmark. They think my family is in Turkey and I am here.

VOICE: Why?

MUKHLES: I feel shame.

VOICE: But why?

MUKHLES: I don't like it. I grew up like this. I feel ashamed to be like separated from my family like that.

VOICE: But don't you think because everybody's now much more familiar about the situation...

MUKHLES: I know. I know. Another secret: nobody knows where I work. Like you (do) because you are a close friend for me and I trust you. So majority of my friend they think I work in the hospital.

VOICE: Are you embarrassed that your working...

MUKHLES: I feel shame with that. It's not my job. [Soundclip ends]

CH: That is Mukhles in Ottawa, and struggling isn't he Rana? You were talking to him -- sometimes you talk to the boys in Turkey, then you talk to Mukhles. How is he doing?

RA: I think he has been through tough circumstances also because he faced many difficulties in going through to be a doctor again. And he failed in doing that. And also, he stopped fighting in this field because he'd get into a depression and maybe because I'm not with him to encourage him, maybe. I don't know. But the thing is, he feels alone all the time. And he decided to go away and be in a place where nobody knows him. And he will not contact anyone, you know. And he likes to cook. He likes cooking. So he decided to work in a restaurant. And the other things is he tried hard to have papers also in Canada to be officially have...

CO: A residency there.

RA: Yes. But it took a long long time, more than ten years now. Almost ten years.

CO: Because he went way ahead of you then. He left Syria much earlier then.

RA: Yes, he left Syria just at the beginning of the war.

CO: And so your boys were really young when he left?

RA: Yeah. Yeah.

CO: Was he hoping that he could get this residency and then be able to bring everybody to Canada?

RA: Yea he has the same dream. At the beginning of this story, he has the same dream that in a hurry that we will be together in Canada, but everything has changed. And also he failed in doing that. And that story has another direction.

CO: And then you had to make your own way from Syria and from Turkey on that rickety boat crossing to Greece to try and get your family together. You've gone through so much Rana. The most powerful thing, of course, is the moment in the airport in Denmark when those boys get off the plane. Can you describe that moment for us?

RA: Oh my God! [Chuckles] This is a moment in life. You know what? I feel that -- if you have birth again or if you have children again or something like this, it's incredible...it's an incredible moment really. I will not forget it all my life. Because I have my children again as if someone took that and give them again to me.

CO: How much had they changed?

RA: A lot, a lot. And until now, just for fun but it's really not always fun -- I told them I want my children back. Where is my children? [Laughs] Because they are two different children.

CO: And especially Nidal. He's a man now, isn't he? He was 17 when he returned at that moment. He's grown up quite a bit, hasn't he?

RA: Yeah. It's a price. It's a price. I paid a very high price because children in this time grow up so much fast so if you leave them you will lose that time to be with them at that age. Yeah.

CO: Mira, your documentary being able to trace this, you got a sense what so many refugees know, which is that it takes so long. There's so many roadblocks, so many obstacles to doing something that should be so straightforward. How much did you learn about what refugees are going through in order to find safety?

MJ: Yeah, yeah. I learned a lot and I have to say that, you know, my ambition with this film is really to show the human face behind the general number. Because we read so much in newspapers and also see something in news and it's all about how many we should take in and how many we should reject. And in the end, it's all about numbers. And then we tend to forget about the humans that are actually living in this and that is why is it became so important for me to do this film.

CO: And Rana there's video when your family is still together, when the boys are young and you look so happy as a family in your city, your life in Syria is lovely. And then we see the destruction of Aleppo, how everything is destroyed. What do you miss the most about the life you had in Syria with your family?

RA: I think we miss ourselves. Yes, we live in another world now. Everything has changed around us. And all the time we have this nostalgia or we miss all things and all people and all of us. You know, we are not the same people now, but we must keep fighting and say it's life. And this is maybe the only thing that we are alive.

CO: And what hope do you have that one day your whole family will be reunited again somewhere?

RA: I cannot imagine because just like I told you, we are different now. Who knows? Who knows the shape of life in the future when we will be together?

CO: Do you have what you need now in Denmark to make a life for yourself and your boys?

RA: We are trying to have our own life here in Denmark. We keep fighting. Learning the language and studying a lot of things, trying to have a diploma or something to start work. We're doing a lot of things in order to be an active people here also like what we were in our country. We are trying hard.

CO: I admire your courage. I admire the strength and all the effort you put into to get those boys safe. And Mira thank you for putting such a human face on what we tend to look at as just being a bunch of numbers. So thank you so much to you both.

BOTH: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

RA: Thank you Mira. Thank you Carol.

MJ: Thank you Rana. [Chuckles]

CO: Thank you all. Bye bye.

CH: That was Rana Agha in Odense, Denmark. And Mira Jarjil, the director of the documentary Reunited was in Copenhagen. The film is part of this year's online Hot Docs Film Festival, which runs until June 6th, which is tomorrow. But you can stream it until June 24th. And if you'd like to hear this interview again or see pictures of Ms. Agha and her family, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

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