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The AIH Transcript for October 26, 2018

Hosts: Megan Williams and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Hello I'm Megan Williams sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight.

MW: Centre of attention -- in Florida today U.S. authorities arrest the man they believe mailed explosive devices to Trump critics. And tonight, we'll hear more about the suspect Cesar Sayoc.

JD: Let us do more than pray -- our guest is among the women protesting in Vatican City demanding that female leaders be given the right to vote at the Synod of Bishops.

MW: Fine points -- a Toronto Uber driver is found guilty after a man dies in his car, but is just given a ticket for careless driving. And the victim's brother says that slap on the wrist is a slap in the face.

JD: No more is an island -- it was there before a hurricane this month but now a Hawaiian Island has vanished and a biologist worries for the sea creatures that rely on it for survival.

MW: They found a fortune in a board game but no dice. A couple discovers jewelry worth thousands in a second hand game but then a P.E.I woman finds their story has a whole bunch of familiar ring.

JD: And the beast of both worlds the new Philadelphia Flyers mascot is simultaneously adorbs and atrosh. And tonight we'll speak to the Dr. Frankenstein who brought the furry orange monster known as "Gritty" into being. As It Happens. The Friday edition. Radio that knows when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

Part 1: Meet the man whose imagination spawned Gritty, the 'unsettling' Flyers mascot

Letter bombs arrest

Guest: David Ovalle

JD: Today an arrest in Plantation, Florida.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Yeah we just took him into custody. And we want the road shut down and then we'll start evacuating.

JD: Cesar Sayoc is now in custody. He is suspected of mailing at least 13 improvised explosive devices across the United States. The targets were largely high profile Democrats including President Barack Obama and Secretary Hillary Clinton and Florida Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz -- just to name a few. Several of the packages also used Congresswoman Wasserman Schultz's return address. Here she is reacting to the arrest earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: It's sickening that this could be happening anywhere but you know obviously being a representative of this community and being a person who is of this community, raising my children in this community, it's gut wrenching. It is gut wrenching. I can't imagine -- I just can't imagine that anyone would do this. We did receive a suspicious package in our office and my staff who is trained to be able to recognize when we get a suspicious package did exactly the right thing, followed the procedures --and you know obviously when you have a suspicious package come to your office and you have staff who has handled it and you realize that there is potential danger... it's frightening. It's frightening. Nightmarish. And so one of the things that I know I'm going to make sure that I do is go back and I sit on the Appropriations subcommittee that handles the procedures and funding for these things -- we have to make sure that we go back and add even more screening and protection for the people that are helping us do our jobs every day.

JD: Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz earlier today. Again, this morning an arrest was made in the bombing campaign that has gripped the United States since Monday when the first bomb showed up at George Soros's house. David Ovalle has been reporting on the suspect Cesar Sayoc for the Miami Herald. We reached Mr. Ovalle in Miami.

MW: Mr. Ovalle, what has this suspect been charged with?

DAVID OVALLE: Cesar Sayoc has been charged with five federal felonies all having to do with transmission of bombs or explosives -- and more than likely he'll end up getting more charges as they sort of build their case. But that's pretty much what they need for now to keep him in custody. And yeah it's fluid situation and an ever changing story.

MW: How was Cesar Sayoc arrested?

DO: The federal authorities obviously launched a very wide ranging investigation. And actually his fingerprint was found on some of the -- at least one of the envelopes that one of these packages was sent in, [inaudible] pipe bombs. And subsequent to that they also found DNA material on some of the packages as well. And because he had a criminal record in Florida his DNA had been collected as part of the you know sort of a registry here in Florida for criminals -- and so they were able to match it and confirm it was him.

MW: So what do we know about him so far?

DO: So Cesar seems to be a real enigmatic type of character. You get a sense he has got like identity issues -- you know he claims to be a member of the Seminole Indian tribe but the Seminole Indian Tribe says no way he's never been registered with us. He seems to be all over the place and his online persona separating fact from fiction is a little challenging right now because you know he posts a lot of stuff and just trying to figure out what is actually accurate is a little bit challenging. He does have a criminal record. He's got a bunch of arrests for shoplifting. But the most serious one was in 2002 -- he was arrested for making a bomb threat to Florida Power & Light. So what happened was he called Florida Power & Light --and it's a recorded line and he's upset about his bill and so he starts threatening the representative, the customer service rep, and he threatens to blow up FPL -- it's going to be worse than 9/11. So he ends up getting arrested. He ends up getting 1 year of probation and gets what's called the withhold of adjudication which means that he wasn't technically considered a felon.

MW: Right. Now a lot of people have probably seen the pictures of a van that was also collected by the police. Can you describe the van?

DO: The van is very distinct. You know it had all kinds of decals and stickers --expressing adulation for President Donald Trump and sort of disdain for a lot of his opponents. You know so it was sort of like this, gosh -- it almost seems like a parody of a Trump supporter because it was just so over-the-top and even on his social media profiles it's so over-the-top. He seems to have derived his whole identity in the last couple of years from the sort of right wing extremist causes associated with a lot of the people who are Trump's supporters online -- on Twitter anyway.

MW: And what have reporters been able to glean from his social media accounts in terms of the things that were important to him or the things he was spending a lot of energy on?

DO: He seem to be spending a lot of energy sort of trolling left wing causes, left wing people, sort of the enemies of the Trump you know right wing extremists. And so you know there are some media members of staff who had been threatened by him or people who are associated with leftist causes who had been threatened. There was one in particular that he sort of insinuated that he would throw her into the Everglades to the alligators you know. So very -- that sort of caustic style of trolling people online.

MW: Now there was a press conference this afternoon by Department of Justice officials where they stressed that the bombs were not hoax devices. What do we know about these improvised explosive devices or IEDs?

DO: Well they appear that they were done probably pretty crudely and not with the greatest amount of skill. These seem like they were the type of devices that you could probably try to craft after you know going on the Internet and trying to figure out how to build these things. So didn't seem like it was a huge level of sophistication. And that's a good thing because it means that nobody got hurt. But I think we still have a lot to learn -- at least us in the media, about exactly what level of planning went into it? What exactly he detailed and what level of research and expertise went into making these?

MW: Right. Now earlier today before the arrest -- the President tweeted Republicans are doing so well in early voting and at the polls and now this "bomb" stuff happens and the momentum greatly slows. News not talking politics -- very unfortunate. What is going on? Republicans go out and vote. How do you interpret that twee? And in particular him putting quotes around the word bomb.

DO: I think for anybody that's just a discerning reader of the news can kind of differentiate the sort of reality on the ground and sort of the tweets that the President sends that just sort of overlook everything or just sort of detached from the reality of the situation. And I know definitely for law enforcement they have to sort of just filter that kind of stuff out as hard as it may be because you know there is bomb threats and there are people’s lives that are being affected. And there are you know -- there's a certain level of panic even in the newsrooms. You know as you see CNN got it. You know a lot of people have been on edge because of these threats. So I think it has gotten to the point with President Trump that a lot of people sort of expect him to lob these types of tweets that are a little bit disconnected from the reality or the ground. And I think it's a shame because we've almost become desensitized to it so you don't even -- you kind of just roll your eyes and like alright there he goes again.

MW: Is there a concern that there are still more bombs out there?

DO: Yes. Yeah in fact the FBI director came out today said there's very well may be more in transit. So you know I'm sure if the suspect talked he probably you know might have given them a good sense of how many people were targeted. So I think they probably have a good idea how many are out there floating around. But yeah it's definitely something that they're looking for and they're being cognizant of especially at this mail sorting facility which is this huge huge huge operation here in Miami that pretty much handles like a million packages a day. So imagine that's a lot of packages to go through.

MW: Certainly is. Mr. Ovalle thanks very much for speaking with me -- appreciate it.

DO: Thank you. I appreciate it.

JD: David Ovalle is a reporter with The Miami Herald. We reached him in Miami Florida.

Uber death

Guest: Patrick Cameron

JD: The accident happened in a split second but the search for justice in Nick Cameron's death is proving to be a long and devastating process for his family. Last March, Mr. Cameron and his girlfriend were travelling as passengers in an Uber when a car struck their vehicle. The crash killed Mr. Cameron. He was 28 years old at the time. In a Toronto courtroom this week the Uber driver was found guilty of a Highway Traffic Act violation of careless driving which carries a maximum fine of 2000 dollars. The driver had originally faced criminal charges including dangerous driving causing death. Those were later dropped. Patrick Cameron is Nick Cameron's brother. We reached him in Hamilton.

MW: Patrick what went through your mind in that courtroom yesterday when you learned that this Uber driver was only going to get a careless driving ticket?

PATRICK CAMERON: I mean we never invested much hope in the legal process from the outset. But it just re-traumatizes the family. It's like getting a signifier that Nick's life wasn't very valuable or worth very much or what the Uber driver did wasn't very serious at all. And I think that sends a message to society that driving poorly, driving recklessly, it's not really that big of a deal.

MW: Is there any jail time associated with the charge?

PC: No. There's the possibility of jail time up to six months but that almost never happens and it's not going to happen in this case. The penalty is basically inconsequential. I think they're haggling over -- will be a 400 dollar fine or a 2000 dollar fine. But any of that is like you know -- doesn't even come close to the scale of what happened.

MW: Now the Uber driver had originally been charged with dangerous driving causing death among other criminal charges which would have resulted in jail time. Why didn't those charges stick?

PC: I think just the burden of successfully prosecuting those charges is extremely high.

MW: What do you have to prove or show?

PC: If I'm not mistaken you have to prove that there was like an extended pattern of careless or reckless driving. So it's not just a temporary lapse. He would have had to have been driving very poorly for a very long period of time.

MW: I'm sorry to have to ask you this but can you tell me what you learned about what happened to your brother Nick that night in March and how he was killed?

PC: So the Uber driver had only been in Toronto I believe for four days or so. So he didn't really know where anything really was. So he gets on the highway but he's going east bound instead of west bound -- like he didn't even really know what direction to go in. So he gets off at Spadina to turn around, they start going west on the Gardiner and they're coming up for the turn off to the airport and his phone slides out of its cradle, onto the floor. And he pulled over to the side of the highway but he didn't fully pull over -- he was still partially in the lively traffic. And he retrieved his phone and then he re-entered the highway without really properly speeding up or checking his mirror. And at the same time there was a BMW that was changing lanes from the centre lane to the right lane. And that driver admitted that he was -- he said he was checking the time on his phone. I mean who knows if that's true or not, but he was looking at his phone while changing lanes and the BMW driver rear ended the Uber and it was exactly at the point where my little brother was sitting -- in the back left. So my littler brother's side of the car took all of the impact and Nick's neck was broken and he was basically killed instantly. Thankfully his girlfriend Monica was only moderately injured.

MW: I'm so sorry. What training did the Uber driver have?

PC: Nothing. In 2016 when City Council was meeting to decide what regulations there should be for ride share drivers -- what they ended up doing was just getting rid of safety training for not just ride share drivers but taxi drivers as well. They lowered the bar for everyone. It was, I think, just an incredibly reckless and stupid decision. It directly led to Nick's death I think because this driver I don't think could have passed the most basic safety test. He was just so incompetent. He had no business transferring the public at all. So what we're looking for is just some bare minimum of safety training, some safety checks, just to see that someone actually is a competent and safe driver before they're allowed to pick up members of the public because when you call an Uber you don't -- it's a complete stranger who is coming to pick you up -- you don't know how safe or how competent they are.

MW: Earlier this month Uber Canada said that they think the technology they already have does a good job assessing a driver's skill on the road and that if customers lodge safety concerns about a driver the company will investigate. What do you think about those measures?

PC: That's completely ridiculous. That means the passengers are doing the safety testing for Uber. If the driver is unsafe and incompetent then I guess he or she will pick up passengers for a while, give them unsafe rides and the passengers will alert Uber or rate the driver poorly. I mean I'm sure this driver would have eventually been weeded out that way but in the meantime the public is being put at risk.

MW: Even experienced drivers sometimes do really stupid things. How sure can you be that the extra safety training would have prevented the kind of accident that your brother was killed in?

PC: I mean yeah accidents happen all the time. In this case if it had been a freak accident -- if he had done everything that he could that would be understandable but the level of incompetence and recklessness is just extreme. And we can't prevent every accident from happening but we can take simple common sense measures to reduce the likelihood of things like this happening.

MW: You and your family launched a petition to convince the City of Toronto that Uber drivers require safety training. How hopeful are you that that will happen?

PC: I'm cautiously optimistic that common sense will prevail. The whole idea to completely get rid of safety training for all the drivers in Toronto was so short-sighted and naive. I think it was just a bunch of middle aged guys who wanted to seem like they were with the times. And I know as someone who works in tech myself I know just because it's new and flashy doesn't mean we don't need safety training. Those rules were there for a very good reason.

MW: Patrick this has been a terrible year for you and your family with the loss of your brother Nick -- how are you all doing now?

PC: It's been -- yeah it's been horrible. Nick was the baby of the family. He was eight years younger than my sister and I. And he was really one of all of us who really like loves life the most and lived it to the fullest. And he was also just so conscientious. We were all together the last weekend before the accident and I actually took him out he was learning how to drive and I took him out in the car so he could practice. And he was so safe and cautious. He was driving so slowly. He was checking his mirrors. I almost had to like tell him to like relax. And for someone so conscientious and so caring of others to be killed in this way just makes it all the more frustrating and sad.

MW: Patrick, again I'm so sorry. And thank you so much for speaking with me.

PC: Oh no problem at all. Thanks for having me.

JD: Patrick Cameron is Nick Cameron's older brother. Nick was killed last March while traveling in an Uber. The driver of that Uber was handed a careless driving traffic fine yesterday in connection with Nick's death. Nick's parents Cheryl Hawks and the late Bill Cameron are former CBC employees. And Nick did some freelance work for As It Happens years ago.

Gritty designer

Guest: Dave Raymond

JD: Adorable fluff ball or nightmare inducing orange menace. Well Philadelphia City Council has made up its mind on "Gritty" -- last night it passed a resolution to welcome and honor the soft and controversial new mascot of the Philadelphia Flyers. Here's a clip.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Resolution in welcoming, Gritty, the new mascot of the Philadelphia Flyers and honoring the spirit and passion that Gritty has brought to the city of Philadelphia and the entire country both on and off the ice -- introduced by Councilwoman Gym.

VOICE 2: Chair recognizes Councilwoman Gym.

VOICE 3: Thank you so much council president. And thank you to my colleague here Councilman Taubenberger who is a 50 year season ticket holder for the Philadelphia Flyers. And with that I move for the adoption of the resolution.

VOICE 4: And I would honored as a 50 year old -- not 50 year old, I'm older than that. 50 year Flyer ticket holders to second that.

VOICE 2: All right. Moving -- probably second also for those in favour say aye.

[Council says aye]

VOICE 2: Those oppose...

[Chatter]

VOICE 2: Councilman clarify.

VOICE 5: He ugly.

[Laughter]

JD: Gritty is the Philadelphia Flyers first ever mascot. He is not a traditional mascot. He's fun but he's also horrifying. And because of that he has divided fans and people around the world. Dave Raymond created and designed Gritty. He lives in West Grove, Pennsylvania but today we reached Mr. Raymond in The Villages, Florida.

MW: Mr. Raymond what was it like to hear city council pay tribute to Gritty?

DAVE RAYMOND: Well I'll tell you it's -- this whole thing has been somewhat of a surprise when it reached a different level of decibels if you will in terms of the acknowledgment and the acceptance because going in certainly we were preparing for it to not be accepted in any way shape or form in terms of Gritty's roll out and not only -- it did come in negative very early but in a short 24 hours it had completely reversed and now suddenly Gritty is a phenomenon and it's not something that anybody myself or the Flyers expected.

MW: Why were you expecting such a negative reaction?

DR: Well have you ever been to Philadelphia? [Laughter] I don't mean -- listen I'm a huge Philadelphia sports fan.

MW: I'm not sure who you're insulting there.

DR: That's why I'm going to take -- I'm going to take a pedal back here for a second Megan. Our fans are very very discriminating in terms they have great knowledge about each sport and they don't like any fooling around. You know they want to get to it. They want to win. So they -- when you throw some marketing at them or they sense that this is some sneaky way to get people to love the Flyers they're against it. And in Philadelphia it has been tough fans -- they do not like you know the furry creatures. However the fanatic kind of slipped under the radar back in 1978 and has become one of the best known mascots in sports.

MW: This is the Philly Phanatic for the Phillies baseball team?

DR: Correct. And he's probably recognized as one of the best mascots in all of sports. And I was the performer for the Phanatic when he was rolled out 1978 so they were frightened too but back in that day you could sneak him out and they just let the Phanatic come out one night -- didn't say anything about him and he got a lot of positive response. But in today's world --make an announcement that this is going to be the Flyers new mascot, an organization who never really liked mascots and were clear that they weren't going to have a mascot -- they knew as an organization that the negativity was going to come first. And I think the reason why it worked was they embraced that. They knew it was coming and then when it came they embraced it and had fun with it and then that flipped the switch.

MW: Now Gritty as many people have pointed out is not exactly pretty. Was that intentional in a way? I mean you know I'm intrigued by your first comment that you were anticipating a negative reaction. So was this somehow kind of if you put out something that looked very unattractive that somehow this would get past people's defenses?

DR: Well I think that's a great theory but I'll tell you Megan what happens is we get together with our client and the first thing we tell them is that it does not matter what it looks like as long as you do two things first. Number one is the commitment to the project. It's going to be our entity, our guy, our gal, our it, and we are going to stand behind it and nothing will deter us from weathering the storm of negativity to make sure everybody knows that this is serious fun and we're not going to be slowed down. So the Flyers were very clear in the beginning that that was their attitude. The second was before you figure out what it looks like you have to tell a story. You have to come up with where did you find this thing? What was it doing before you found it? How is it connected to the City of Philadelphia? How is it connected to the Flyers history and otherwise? And what is it going to do once it gets here? And that's their first exercise. They did both of those exceptionally well. And then they also agreed that they were going to get negative interaction and they said we don't care. They didn't really talk about how they were going to handle it. They just said we don't care. So then the design comes in and the qualities of Gritty come from the back story so he was somewhat like a troll living in the underbelly or the catacombs or the bowels of the spectrum. And when that was destroyed he moved over to the construction of the new arena and he's been there ever since unnoticed. And they found him because they were doing renovations and they disturbed him. And then when they saw him they said my gosh he looks like a dyed-in-the-wool Flyers fan. He's orange and black. He's hairy. He's wild looking. And then the Gritty came from the grit of the city of Philadelphia -- and the toughness and the scrappiness and kind of the win at all cost and end the protection of our own. You know we protect our guy so when it started going bad and then people outside of Philadelphia criticized him -- our fans said hey wait a minute he's ugly but he's our ugly. [Chuckles] You can't make fun of him because you know if anybody makes fun of him we are going to but you're not allowed.

MW: Now city council had this resolution, signed resolution, that Gritty will be fully embraced by Philadelphia. Did that come as a surprise?

DR: No. I thought it was the timeframe that was a surprise. In two days, in 48 hours, there was this love coming across all of social media that I think surprised everybody. So the speed and the level of phenomena meaning you know national and now international recognition from a media perspective was just completely unexpected. I understand this industry -- he will be a success for a long long time and he like the Phanatic celebrated his 40th anniversary this April -- Gritty will be celebrating his 40th anniversary and beyond 40, 50, 60 years from now -- that I'm sure of.

MW: Thanks so much for speaking with me today Mr. Raymond. It's been a pleasure.

DR: My pleasure Megan. Thank you for having me.

JD: Dave Raymond is The Emperor of Fun at Raymond Entertainment and The Power of Fun. He designed the Philadelphia Flyers new mascot Gritty. We reached Mr. Raymond in The Villages, Florida.

Part 2: Catholic women bring voting rights fight to the gates of key Vatican conference

Catholic women's rights

Guest: Kate McElwee

[Music]

SOUNDCLIP

[Chanting] Knock Knock. Who's there? More than half the Church.

JD: That is what Roman Catholic leaders heard earlier this month as they entered the Vatican. The women were protesting the Synod of Bishops. The Synod is an advisory body for the pope that meets every couple of years in Vatican City to discuss big issues affecting the church. This year the focus is youth. But what is getting even more attention is women's rights. Now traditionally only ordained men have been allowed to vote on any major decisions. This year's vote will take place tomorrow. And women like Kate McElwee are hoping that their voices have been heard. Ms. McElwee was at the protest and helped start a petition to give female leaders in the church the right to vote. We reached Ms. McElwee in Rome.

MW: Kate McElwee we just heard in that clip that you've been knocking at the door of the Catholic Church for nearly a month now. How's it going?

KATE MCELWEE: Yeah it has been a long 25 days of the prelates meeting in Rome. I think our voices have been heard.

MW: Now there are a huge number of women in the Catholic Church. How is it that in the year 2018 female leaders are still not allowed to vote in this Synod of Bishops which are these big gatherings of bishops from around the world?

KM: Up until 2015 the Synod of Bishops was basically limited to bishops -- so ordained men.. Andin 2015 the Pope made an exception and appointed a brother, a non-ordained man, as a voting member of the Synod -- and this year that number doubled which allowed two non-ordained men to vote. So this year we saw an opening here because there are women religious superiors who are part of the Synod as well and the only difference between a brother and a sister is their gender. So we tried to raise that up as discrimination basically.

MW: And what has been the response when you held it up as discrimination?

KM: Well surprisingly the brothers have come out in support of what we've been doing and we know that the brothers, superiors, and the women religiousist are working to develop a proposal for Pope Francis to consider for the next synod. So the support that we've received within the Synod hall has been very positive but also within just two weeks more than 9000 people signed our petition calling for voting rights for women in the church.

MW: Are you getting any support from the actual bishops?

KM: Well the bishops have been asked about voting rights for women and the roles of women in the church at basically every press conference and some of them at first didn't even realize that non ordained men were part of the meeting. And so once they realized that there were two brothers I think that they are able to recognize the value that women bring to leadership positions and we're hoping that that will be reflected in the final document.

MW: So when you say you're hoping it will be reflected in the final document. Can you tell us about what this document is and why it's important that it be reflected in this document?

KM: Well the document comes from -- first they have listening sessions around the world and they asked bishops to poll their youth communities there with a survey for Catholics ages 16 and 29 to fill out there -- what they're hoping from the church or why they've fallen away from the church and the bishops are meant to bring the stories to Rome to discuss how to better accompany youth and welcome youth back to church who may have left and better realize their experiences and the questions that young people are asking about their church today.

MW: Is there anything binding about the document?

KM: Well [inaudible] could be official church teaching but it depends really I think on the local bishops and communities to implement them.

MW: Now you mentioned you know being outside and of course your protests have taken outside the Vatican in the Synod. What kind of reaction did you get there?

KM: There are just 10 percent of the participants are women within the Synod hall. So on the day that the Synod began we had a witness outside the Synod gates to call for women to vote within the Synod hall -- basically to call the bishops out by name and say we see what you're doing -- you're closing the door making decisions without us. So we were able to peacefully protest outside the Synod hall. Also praying for 25 minutes or so before the Rome police came and asked us to stop. Basically I was held forcibly by my arm and everyone was forced to show identification.

MW: What about reaction from the crowds? Was there any reaction from passersby or people observing it?

KM: Notably two prelates from Ireland came and greeted us and took our material. The fact that women cannot vote in a meeting in 2018 is pretty absurd to most people so we've got a lot of support from people walking by.

MW: Pope Francis has promised to put more women in leadership roles and after five years there are only six women in you know what can be defined as leadership roles at the Vatican. What more would you like from him?

KM: Well there are things that he could do immediately. He could appoint women to positions of leadership across the Vatican today -- positions that don't require ordination.

MW: Now there's been a lot of criticism of Pope Francis about how slow he has been to understand the sex abuse issue within the Catholic Church and how he said the right things but has been very slow to act. There hasn't been as much public criticism towards him about women. Do you think he gets the issue of why women should be included in the Catholic Church and given leadership positions?

KM: Many of us are calling for equality and are not satisfied by the slow progress of his papacy to bring women into substantial leadership positions.

MW: But do you think he gets it?

KM: You know I really hope that he is able to meet women who are called to be priests -- as a pastor I know that he you know would respond to them with a generous heart and I hope that he is a man of conversion.

MW: Yeah. No I understand that that's what you hope I guess what I'm trying to ask you is do you think that Pope Francis is a Catholic leader who can grasp why it's necessary and 2018 to fully include women?

KM: I guess we'll have to see. So far he hasn't made any moves to include women in substantial voting positions or made tremendous steps towards women in leadership positions. So I mean five years in a lot of us are you know tired of waiting. But I do think that it takes time for change to happen. But I do think that he has a lot to learn.

MW: Kate McElwee thanks so much for speaking with me.

KM: Thank you.

JD: Kate McElwee is the executive director of the Women's Ordination Conference. It's a group that advocates for women's rights in the Catholic Church. We reached Ms. McElwee in Rome. You can find more on this story on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

JD: It has been two decades since the murder of 21 year old Matthew Shepard and today at last his ashes were interred at the Washington National Cathedral. You may remember Mr. Shepard's story -- the University of Wyoming student was beaten and left tied to a fence. He would later died of his injuries. And it is widely believed he was targeted because he was gay. And his death drew attention to the violence faced by LGBTQ people everywhere and helped change attitudes in the United States. Here is some of what Matthew Shepard's father Dennis Shepard said to the thousands of people who gathered at the cathedral for the service earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

DENNIS SHEPARD: It is so important that we now have a home for Matt. A home that others can visit. A home that is safe from haters. A home that he loved dearly from his younger days in Sunday school and as an acolyte in the church back home. So to all of you who are here and all of you who through the joys of technology are live streaming -- thank you. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you for being a part of this. And we sincerely hope and pray that you will come here often -- not just to reflect on Matt but reflect on others that you love dearly. So bless you and thank you.

JD: That was Dennis Shepard the father of the late Matthew Shepard speaking today during a service at the Washington National Cathedral. Gene Robinson the Episcopal Church's first openly gay bishop spoke later on in the ceremony after which the ashes of Matthew Shepard were interred.

Hawaiian island

Guest: Charles Littnan

JD: Satellite images show that a remote Hawaiian Island has all but disappeared. It is called East Island. It's more than 800 kilometres north west of Honolulu. And earlier this month it was hit hard by Hurricane Walaka. The island was important to green sea turtles and monk seals. Charles Littnan has visited East Island more than a dozen times for his research. Mr. Littnan is a conservation biologist with the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration or NOAA. We reached him in Honolulu.

MW: Mr. Littnan what do you know about how East Island looks right now?

CHARLES LITTNAN: Looks very different than it did just a couple of weeks ago. All that remains of it is a small maybe 50 metre sandbar barely sitting above the ocean surface.

MW: Before the hurricane rolled over it, what did the island look like then?

CL: Pretty standard small sandy island -- represents the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands. It was about 11 hectares and two meters above sea level covered with a bit of vegetation but basically teeming with wildlife. Thousands of birds. Hundreds of green sea turtles that used it for nesting. And a couple of dozen endangered monk seals that would use it for pupping habitat.

MW: Did people live there or use it at any point?

CL: No. So the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands is a national monument or large national park. And so the only people that would ever be up there were researchers and we usually had people that would be up there between the months of April and August.

MW: Now it's part of Hawaii's French Frigate Shoals. Were there any other islands affected by this hurricane earlier this month?

CL: Yes so French Frigate Shoals itself has about seven islets of various sizes there -- some of the estimates that we've heard is the storm surge was probably about five meters -- all of the islands are maybe two to three metres high so obviously every island was over washed. It's just -- east was sitting at the probably the most exposed part of the [inaudible] and suffered the brunt of the damage.

MW: Now as someone who has done research on this island what were your concerns when you learned that it had been wiped off the map?

CL: It's just really really like many of these islets really really important habitat for a lot of animals in the middle of the ocean. So for green sea turtles they're threatened 96 percent of the population breeds at French Frigate Shoals or nests at the French Frigate Shoals. This island was 50 percent of that nesting habitat so it's a pretty significant loss for turtles. And for monk seals it's about 30 percent of their population pups there. So the first question for us is did we lose animals? And we don't think we did because it was so late in the season so they probably weathered the storm. It's next year when they come back to pup or to nest -- you know how are they going to respond to that loss of habitat and are they going to move to another place to have their offspring?

MW: Is that a difficult thing for them to do to switch their sort of their annual route or habits?

CL: You know thankfully wildlife is pretty adaptable so we think that they'll -- monk seals for sure but we're pretty confident that the turtles will go back to East Island realize that you know they'll probably try to haul out and see that it's not there. Figure out that it's not good habitat and they will move on. But we will have our teams up there monitoring and making sure that everything is okay.

MW: What is entailed in the monitoring? I mean are you going to send a team to another island to watch from there? What are the next steps?

CL: Yeah that's such a good question. Yes there is actually a slightly larger island that is there that is the home station. And generally we did have people camping on east. So they'll just have to modify their strategy so a lot more small boat we're driving around the atoll looking. There's lots of options -- well not lots of options but there's a few options for the turtles to go to so they'll have to do a lot of island hopping over the course of the summer seeing where all the females are coming up to nest.

MW: What do you think the chances that East Island will rise from the ocean?

CL: Oh you know at this point it would be a guess but we've had some islands every year disappear and re-emerge. We had one that disappeared that was also really important to turtles and it's been missing for 30 years -- so we will again, it's one of the things our oceanographers will be monitoring. It is quite possible that with a nice storm coming from the north and the waves moving in the right direction we could see East emerge again this winter. But the other side of the coin is it could take decades.

MW: Right.

CL: If ever.

MW: If ever. Well I was just going to ask I mean we all know that the sea levels are rising due to climate change. How does that affect things?

CL: Well that's one of the things that's interesting about this event is these island you know one of the number one threats for the islands is climate change -- both to the islands and to the animals. So this will provide us a glimpse into what the future is going to look like and to see how the animals respond, how quickly the islands may be able to return, studying what helps islands to I guess recreate or what prevents them from doing it is all going to shape how we're going to manage and try to deal with the change that is coming.

MW: So how do you feel about the fact that you might not be able to return to East Island ever again?

CL: Well you're the first person that's asked that question. Nobody thinks about the feelings of scientists. There are some people that have spent extensive amounts of time in their career on this island and have a lot of amazing memories and very formative years in their science and are pretty devastated by the loss. You know you balance -- it is a loss but it's this amazing natural experiment that's going to help us know how to make a difference hopefully in the future. And I think it's an amazing example of the power of nature and what climate change might look like so hopefully it provides some benefit to our greater community in thinking about these things.

MW: Okay well thanks very much for speaking with me today.

CL: Thank you. You have a good day.

MW: You too. Bye bye.

CL: Aloha.

JD: Charles Littnan is the protective species division director for NOAA's Pacific Islands Fisheries Science Centre. We reached Mr. Littnan in Honolulu, Hawaii.

Part 3: How one of the worst active oil spills in U.S. history has been kept 'under the radar'

Diamond find

Guest: Orlanda Drebit

JD: It was a fun 'how about that' kind of story that made headlines around Australia. A young Aussie couple who had moved to Canada for an adventure picked up a board game from a thrift store for three bucks on a family holiday on P.E.I And that small investment became a windfall when they discovered 17000 dollars’ worth of diamond rings stashed in a compartment in the game. Well as that human interest story took hold in Canada it was brought to the attention of one Orlanda Drebit who was one especially interested human because she recognized those rings as her own. We reached Orlanda Drebit in Bonshaw, Prince Edward Island.

MW: Orlanda how did you even hear about this young Australian couple and what was considered their lucky find?

ORLANDA DREBIT: I was awakened this morning by my niece who thankfully is very social media savvy and she said oh sorry did I wake you and I'm like yes but it's time for me to be up. And she's like yeah so those rings you lost like one was an opal, it was Grammie's right? And I'm like what? And she's going those rings that you lost years ago -- one was an opal right? Yeah. Yes. One was. And she said did you drop them off at Value Village in a MindTrap game? And I'm like what? I said what are you talking about? She said you need to go on Facebook immediately she said I'm pretty sure that a couple bought the rings in a MindTrap game and they are your rings. So yeah that is how I found out [Chuckles].

MW: So it was a MindTrap board game and you hid them in the game?

OD: I must have.

MW: You have no memory?

OD: I have the habit when I couldn't get to Social Security -- like a safety deposit box, of hiding them in my clothes. So the irony is that in 2016 I was paid out for these rings that I thought were lost to me forever and they were three feet from my bed all the time.

MW: Paid out by an insurance company?

OD: Indeed. Yeah.

MW: So you reported them as what stolen or lost?

OD: Lost. Yeah I thought I'd lost them at the seashore. Yeah.

MW: So you had no recollection of hiding them in a board game.

OD: I did not know. Not a single one. And ironically when I put the -- I do remember picking up the MindTrap game and hearing jiggling thinking if I thought even for a second -- they are card like they shouldn't jiggle. Threw them in the box. Like yeah got to get that Value Village.

MW: So when did you realize they were missing?

OD: Oh I realized they were missing in July of 2015. Yeah. And I just thought that they would eventually show up and as I said because I hid things in clothes by the end of December when I'd been through all of my seasonal clothes that's when I started to think oh okay something else has happened here so that was when I first phoned the insurance company to say so if they are in fact missing what is the process. You know you have to start with the police reports and yada yada. So I said okay well I'm not quite ready to do that and then in January I was very very ill and basically fell asleep and I had what I thought was a message from God showing me that I had lost the rings on the sea shore that they were wrapped in a towel...

MW: Some sort of a dream or something? Did you have some sort of vision or a dream?

OD: It was definitely a dream. My cousin had visited me that July from out west and we had gone kayaking and I had blue jeans on that were soaking wet know how uncomfortable they are and I had pulled a beach towel in my dream, wrapped it around me so that I could whip the pants off and not distract the people in the next vehicle. And I heard clink and I woke up. So that was I thought what had happened to the ring. I immediately phoned the fellow who owned the hotel there followed up with all of the pawnshop and thought that they were lost forever. In the summer of 2016 I proceeded with the insurance company and got them all paid out.

MW: Wow. How much money did you get for them?

OD: I don't remember I just asked that my insurance agent to check because I'm going to have to pay it all back probably. [Laughs].

MW: That was gonna be my next question. So why are the rings so special to you?

OD: Well there are several of them that are very special to me. The opal, the one that my niece recognized, was given to me by my husband's mother on my wedding day so she lent me a beautiful opal necklace and she lent me that ring and some earrings -- the ring and the earrings actually had been given to her as a wedding gift for her -- the wedding ring and the engagement ring obviously have sentimental value and my husband passed away nine years ago so getting those back would be just immeasurable in terms of the value to me.

MW: So have you been in touch with the Australian couples that so honestly alerted the second-hand store?

OD: Yeah and second-hand store said that they didn't know anything about it so thank goodness for social media because yes one of my nieces' friends said this was the guy who has your ring so I since have messaged him and I'm so so grateful that they ran this story because I know that they certainly didn't need to do that.

MW: So how do you feel when you think about the fact these rings may never have been found if it weren't for a couple from the other side of the world trying to stave off some boredom on a family holiday?

OD: I'm just thinking what an idiot I am actually [Laughs] that they were so close to me all of this time and I gave them to Value Village. And I guess the other part of me is thinking that this was meant to be that somebody that is honest like this young couple Chris and his partner. Yeah. Because not everybody would do that. So I just thank them from the bottom of my heart.

MW: Have you changed any of your habits in the meantime in terms of where you put valuable things?

OD: Oh yeah. Yes. Yes. [Laughs] Always the same spot that I'm not going to reveal.

MW: Orlanda thanks very much for speaking with me.

OD: Thank you so much. Bye bye.

MW: Bye bye.

JD: That was Orlando Drebit. We reached her in Bonshaw on Prince Edward Island.

VOICE: From coast to coast on CBC Radio and around the world on shortwave this is As It Happens.

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JD: And I'm Jeff Douglas.

CO: Celebrating 50 years...

JD: Of As It Happens. That is right. Count them not one two three or four but five decades this radio program has been on the air. We're turn the big 50 and there's no word yet on whether there'll be a massive slab cake that nobody eats except me who will have three or four slices. And as far as I know we haven't put in an order for one of those inflatable bouncy castle. Words of shame. But we are going to have a radio party on November 16th. And if you have checked out our website lately you will see that we are marking the 50th anniversary of As It Happens in all kinds of other cool ways. For instance if you head on over to our Facebook page right now you will find a brand spanking new video of some guy recalling his rather rocky start on As It Happens.

SOUNDCLIP

JD: In the first month or two months that I was on the program we got a letter or an email from a woman, a listener, in the states in Wisconsin or Minnesota or something and she wrote in to sort of chastise As It Happens for ruining the vibe not just by hiring a man which she thought was a mistake by then going to the extreme of hiring the most idiotic buffoon that they could find and that you know it's too bad -- I used to love the show, I loved it when it was two women but I'll never listen again. And it was pretty harsh what she said and it stung. And so I thought you know I'm going to write back to this woman because that's not right. You shouldn't speak to people that way. So I wrote back and I said I'm just writing back to let you know that this is not -- you're not just screaming out into the void here. You know? There's a human being on the other line. A human being who has just started a new job and is full of all the nerves and yada yada yada. So I'm not trying to drive you away. I'm not trying to be annoying. I'm trying to learn something new and I'm failing in a very public sphere. But I'm sure you must have considered this before you just wrote this hateful letter and sent it off to me. Yours, Jeff. And then I thought, that was a mistake. But then the next day when I came in there was another email to my personal, not to the show, but to my personal account from Eloise. Dear Jeff, I am so ashamed of myself. You're absolutely right. I do find you very annoying. But I also find my nephew very annoying and I love him so I shall endeavor to think of you as my nephew Jeff. Aunt Eloise. And then every year for probably the next four or five years around Christmas time I would get an email from my aunt Eloise in Wisconsin just wishing me the very best of the season a very happy new year. And that she still did find me very annoying. But that she was still trying to love me.

JD: Well aunt Eloise in Wisconsin I hope you are still listening and I am quite sure that you still find me annoying. You can find that video and other special 50th anniversary stuff on our Facebook page. And a reminder we do want to know about a time that you heard something on this program that made you think or made you feel something or shaped your life -- your life in some way. So give us a call for 416-205-5687. Send us an email aih@cbc.ca or share your memories on our Twitter or Facebook pages both of those accounts CBCAsItHappens.

[Music]

Gulf oil spill

Guest: Cynthia Sarthou

JD: Nearly 20 kilometres off the Louisiana coast an oil leak that you have likely never heard of has continued to spew between 10 to 30 thousand gallons of oil into the ocean every single day. The Taylor Energy offshore spill began in 2004 and by now it has gone on for so long that it is set to surpass the Deepwater Horizon spill as the largest oil catastrophe in U.S. history -- which is all the more disturbing because for years the public wasn't even told about the leak. Well now we know but that knowledge is not power because the company and the authorities have no idea how to plug it for good. Cynthia Sarthou is the executive director of the Gulf Restoration Network -- one of the conservation groups that uncovered the incident. We reached Ms. Sarthou in New Orleans.

MW: Ms. Sarthou how is it that this spill managed to go on for so long without the public knowing about it?

CYNTHIA SARTHOU: Well I mean there is no requirement under law of the United States that actually the agencies or the industry put you on notice of a continuing spill. And so what happened is you have an offshore area that is not actually seen by most people unless you're flying over it. And most organizations can't afford to fly over it. And so it just went under the radar until there was a need to fly over which was the BP disaster when people started noticing that there was something wrong and when they asked the federal government -- federal government admitted yup there's a problem.

MW: So we're talking about six years after the Taylor Energy spill. I mean the BP spill happened in 2010. So this spill went on for six years without anybody knowing anything?

CS: Right. We were told after Katrina, Hurricane Katrina, and after Hurricane Ivan that there were problems with some of the rigs and wells out in the Gulf of Mexico but that they had been addressed -- generically they had been addressed so don't worry about it. And it was only when the BP disaster happened that we discovered that in fact it hadn't been taken care of.

MW: How did the Gulf Restoration Network actually discover the leaks?

CS: We had staff who was flying out to monitor the BP response to the disaster and the federal government's response to the disaster and we kept seeing a slick as did other people that were flying the Gulf and it wasn't anywhere close to where the BP disaster was so that started raising questions and then the federal government released a lot of satellite data and one of our partners the SkyTruth did an analysis of the satellite data and realized that there was a 10 mile slick and that again it had nothing to do with BP. So that's the only reason we found out about Taylor Energy's continuing disaster was that we were out there to actually monitor another disaster.

MW: What do you know about how what happened to the Taylor Energy platform during that hurricane?

CS: Well it's my understanding that the platform was actually associated with 26 smaller rigs or wells that the platform toppled and when it toppled and was turned over it buried not only the platform but all of the wells or most of the wells and that Taylor Energy was only able to actually plug nine of those wells. Taylor Energy continues -- representatives of Taylor Energy say it's just a plume that exists in the sediment. But the federal government is saying no that there is a continuing release from one or more of those unplugged wells.

MW: And do we have a sense of how much is being leaked now?

CS: In 2018 right they're now estimating that there is between 10 and 30000 gallons a day and that's about ten times the earlier estimate which was given in 2011. If in fact that level of oil is being released and has been released from the site since the beginning of the disaster and that's a big question it will rival BP.

MW: So this is a massive spill. How has Taylor Energy responded to try to stop the leak?

CS: Well they did go out and try to plug the wells. They did try to cap the well but it was not effective. So they've essentially now thrown up their hands and said it was an act of God -- we have spent what we can to do what we can we can't do anymore, you need to give us back our money. So they're now seeking to get 450 million dollars back from a trust fund that they had established to address the spill.

MW: And who is responsibility is it now to try to clean up the mess?

CS: Well I guess it would be the federal government's but the federal government generally gets money from the polluters to do the cleanup. So it's really unclear whether there would be any money to continue to take action to try to stop the leak.

MW: What legal responsibilities does an oil company have to report an incident like this to the authorities?

CS: Well they actually did report it to the Coast Guard. The difference is that that was not released to the public. Right. So they reported it to the Coast Guard and the Coast Guard worked with them to respond and put together this trust fund. It was just the public that was largely kept in the dark.

MW: And whose responsibility is it to notify the public?

CS: Well I would say that it's both the industry and the federal government but the federal government is very very touchy about this subject because it's not great for PR around oil and gas development.

MW: You know as this mess plays out in the Gulf of Mexico the Trump administration is talking about offering federal offshore drilling licenses on the Atlantic coast. What do you think the industry can learn from this incident as they look into setting up drills in that part of the country?

CS: Well I think what they need to be looking into is ensuring technology for oil exploration is equal to your technology for response. Right. So what we have found and BP and Taylor Energy is that despite assurances from the industry otherwise they learned how to do exploration and development in the deeper waters or in the waters off the Gulf but they don't have the wherewithal to respond. And so you know I think response and shut down has to be as important as exploration itself or you get into this type of situation and that's what the problem is here. They don't have technological expertise sufficient to shut down these -- this spill. And in BP. It took national pressure and international expertise to actually come up with a solution to that spill.

MW: Mr. Sarthou. Thanks very much for speaking with me.

CS: Well thank you.

JD: Cynthia Sarthou is the executive director of the Gulf Restoration Network. We reached her in New Orleans. We have more on this story on our website cbc.ca/aih. My usual partner on the show is of course away from the show this week but trust me Carol Off is not just sitting in the sun sipping margaritas. Oh sorry, she's not only sitting in the sun sipping margaritas. Earlier this week Carol spoke with three of the authors shortlisted for the 2018 Governor General's Literary Awards for English language fiction at the Toronto International Festival of Authors. Paige Cooper, Rawi Hage, and Sarah Henstra gave the audience plenty to feel grim about and then just a glimmer of hope to head home with. Here is some of what they had to say -- beginning with Paige Cooper.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: That's actually my favorite dinner party question is just going around the table and being like so how long do you think society has? And you can really you can -- you can kind of -- a lot of people are like we have thousands of years we are fine. It's never going to end. We're doing great.

VOICE 2: What's your dessert?

VOICE 1: Yeah. And I’m more in the like 15 years camp but you know there's a --there are multiple ways of looking at it.

VOICE 2: But that comes into your writing -- it must come through -- it creep up to your bones and into what you are crafting.

VOICE 1: Yeah -- it's the despair that comes with you know when they show you those dental photographs and it's like here's what happens if you don't floss for a year and then here's what happens if you don't floss for 20 years and if you see the 20 year photo you're like well I'm not flossing because look at what happens this is -- it's just too much. You can't fix it.

VOICE 2: [Laughs] Such a good a metaphor for the state of the earth.

VOICE 1: I'm not a psychologist but -- yeah no it's an overwhelming despair that comes from fear. And it's a very fruitful place to write from. Yeah.

VOICE 2: Rawi? Feelings of dread?

VOICE 3: Yeah I think as species we failed and I think I agree that the analogy is very clear -- we are turning hedonistic now because we know I think subconsciously that we're going or coming to an end I think as a species. I don't know if we can reverse what's happening. I'm bleak by nature so [Laughs] but what novelist is not, right? Yeah I think I mean -- and this [inaudible] of fundamentalism in every way whether secular fundamentalism or religious -- it's all converging. I think that period of grace that we have mostly in the west of you know prosperity and democracy is coming to an end and everything that basic instinct of unification is it's happening it's happening everywhere. China is being unified. I mean the Americans also are we know it's going toward some kind of a dictatorship eventually. That's what I believe. I think there's an elite who is fed up with democracy. It doesn't work whether it's a capitalist elite or religious elite -- I think it's too much negotiation. And I think this is probably the end of democracy.

VOICE 2: Right. It's getting bleaker isn't it? [Crowd laughs] Sarah?

VOICE 4: I can only speak for myself I'm not bleak by nature although I am attracted to a bleak story in the same way that I would be attracted to an incredibly uplifting and inspiring story. I think as a writer I can agree that you know we're probably -- we probably have a bleak prognosis for the human race and the planet but I remain deeply curious about the way that people can find opportunities to connect with one another as human beings or fail to connect with one another at key moments. And I think that's why I continue to do -- I continue to be driven to write is that in a much less global sort of you know go to bed stiff with dread and dream terrible dreams and you can't write a word that's paralyzing right. And I feel that the antidote to that for me is that kind of that really detailed granular curiosity about how does it work when two people can make a connection a healing connection even, what's going on there? And how does that power of empathy operate and how can it play out in a story even if the setting or the setup is extremely bleak or violent or difficult. So it's reality that I'm interested in but it's these moments of -- these moments of hope shining through even against the odds you know or the bad prognosis for us as a human race. And that's I think what I'm always trying to ferret out in my own writing and I think that's what I look for when I'm reading fiction as well so you know it kind of connects us as writers and readers too.

JD: Sarah Henstra is on the Governor General's literary awards shortlist for English language fiction for her book The Red Word. Rawi Hage who spoke before her is nominated for Beirut Hellfire Society. And Paige Cooper the first voice you heard and there is a finalist for her short story collection Zolitude. Two other finalists Miriam Toews and Joshua Whitehead were not able to be there. And the other three shortlisted authors spoke with Carol Off at an event at Toronto's Harbourfront Centre as part of the Toronto International Festival of Authors. The winner of the G.G. fiction prize will be announced Tuesday.

[Music]

JD: It had been nearly a year since his cancer had returned forcing him to cut short his cross-country marathon of hope. That is when former As It Happens host Barbara Frum called Terry Fox to find out how he was coping with his diagnosis. The legendary Canadian athlete spirit had not wavered. As we mark As It Happens 50th anniversary we have put together a list of some of the most memorable and heart wrenching interviews from the last five decades of this program and from that list. Here is part of Barbara Frum's conversation with Terry Fox from 1980.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: How has your chemotherapy gone Terry?

TERRY FOX: Well I've had 6 treatments so far and right now nothing has changed from the last report that we had -- the right [inaudible] went into my left lung -- hasn't really changed too much.

BF: What's been keeping you going Terry? What kind of thoughts?

TF: I can't pinpoint one thing because there's been so many things -- things like the telethon. You know I never forget that night when I was watching it the money that was raised off the telethon I get mail every day -- every day I get all kinds of mail and I always read every letter that I get and the kinds of things that people say and encourage me and support me really helped me out psychologically because I know there's so many people pulling for me and that just makes it easier to go -- go from day to day. And I also you know I do have a belief in God in that no matter what happens to me things are going to be okay because you know it doesn't matter -- [inaudible] because either way I'm going to turned out the winner. I'm probably going to go to heaven or I'm going to continue doing what I'm right now. Things are really just positive now because in between I'm going -- working for [inaudible] I'm feeling good and I'm getting out and just being really active -- not dwelling on the fact that you know there's uncertainty. I'm not sure about everything and just thinking positively is where you got to take it.

BF: You know you mentioned the telethon you mentioned working with other patients that have got cancer. But there's a whole second thing that you've done and I guess you're aware of that -- that kind of symbolic thing about the country, about running across. I realize that fighting cancer is your uppermost thought but what you've done for this country's sense of itself and what it's people can be. I hope people have made that clear to you too.

JD: From December 23rd 1980 that was former As It Happens host Barbara Frum in conversation with Terry Fox. And six months after that conversation Mr. Fox died. He was 22 years old. And you can find that full interview and a list of some of the other most memorable and heart wrenching interviews from 50 years of As It Happens on our website cbc.ca/aih

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