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The AIH Transcript for November 11, 2016

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Bird On The Wire]

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. Tonight we're dedicating much of As It Happens to the life of Leonard Cohen.

CAROL OFF: As many people are in mourning for the musician, and the poet Today. We’ll hear from those who loved him and collaborated with him over his long career.

SOUNDCLIP

There was the man who was talking to himself, debating about whether to get German potato salad or whole potato salad. And at one point I just said, "are you Leonard Cohen?" He said, “yes I am.”

I looked out the window and I saw this man in a fedora and this suit sitting on a little chair on this little lawn with a little plant. And it was just like the most beautiful image.

We were both enjoying a Korean spirit, every once in a while we'd get semi-hammered on the stuff, and he was a riot.

[/sc]

[Music: Bird On The Wire]

Remembering Leonard Cohen: Judy Collins

Guests: Judy Collins

JD: This of course is Leonard Cohen singing Bird on The Wire. But the poet and the writer began as a very reluctant performer. He was content to stay offstage, until he met Judy Collins. Through the 1960s and the 1970s, he wrote some of her best known songs. And it was Ms. Collins, who eventually convinced him to play in front of an audience. Their work together in music would continue for decades. We reached Judy Collins in New York City.

CAROL OFF: Judy Collins, How are you remembering Leonard Cohen today?

JUDY COLLINS: Well, I remember him by continuing as I always do to sing his wonderful songs. But today of course, I'm thinking very much about the first time we met, and of course I treasure that and have talked about it often. It was miraculous really.

CO: It was in the 1960's?

JUDY COLLINS: '66, and I was working on my sixth album for Electro Records it was called In My Life, and I really needed a couple more songs and my friend Mary Martin, who grew up with Leonard in Montreal, and always talked about him to me. Had always had said. "You know, he's this obscure poet and he's written all these obscure books and poems and how wonderful he is." And she called me this particular day in '66 and she said. "He’s just written some songs and he wants to come to New York and he wants to sing them to you." And he came to my home, my apartment in New York and he sang me. He said, "I can't sing and I can't play the guitar and I don't know if this is a song?" And then he sang me Suzanne and Dress Rehearsal Rag and The Stranger Song. And I recorded them in the next week, or so.

CO: And of course, those weren't the first and last of the songs of his that you sang?

JUDY COLLINS: Not at all. They kept coming and they kept coming at me, and to me. And every year, or so, he would send me a new bunch of songs and say, "pick the one you want!" You know, quite often it was two, maybe more. He would bring the tape over when he was in town, and I would listen and choose whatever it was. Sisters of Mercy, Priests, Story of Isaac, The Bird On The Wire. And I continued to record him for all these years, and he's continued to be a friend and somebody who never forgot that I put him on the map. He never forgot it.

CO: And that just now — there's something else that you did, not just that you sang his songs, but that you encouraged him to go on stage and this is a very famous night in New York in 1967 to get him to sing Suzanne, and describe what happened that night?

JUDY COLLINS: Well, I sort of blackmailed him. I said to him you know, "I'm doing this big benefit, and it was huge. Jimi Hendrix is on that show. And it was a big New York Power fundraiser, and I said you know that Suzanne is now really a hit for me." And he said well, "I know that because it's put me on the map and now people know who I am because of your recording." And plural. And I said, "I think you should. I want to introduce you to your audience. Because they're going to be there, and they want to hear you sing Suzanne. He said, "I'm not going to do that." I said, "please, why don't you just do it for me. Just do it because I'm your friend and I have faith in you and I think you should." So he finally agreed and he did and he came out and he sang. He did have a little problem; he stopped in the middle song and walked off the stage. Which we think is very funny, I don't think he thought it was funny at all. He was he was just mortified. And he came off stage and I said, "Leonard let's go back." And the audience went crazy because they always love it when you lose it. And they loved him. Anyway that quite they were quite smitten with him already, and he was only halfway to the song so I said, "why don't I go back out with you? And we'll sing it together, but then you'll be on stage." So that was that's what happened. I took him back out and we finished the song together. But that was his trial by fire. And of course he understood, he got it that people loved him and that they loved his singing. Not only the songs, but that they loved him.

CO: You wrote in your memoir, "that he looked like he was 10 years old when he was backstage, he had his head on your shoulder and you had your arms around him."

JUDY COLLINS: Yes he did. You know, it's a shock for somebody to go out on this stage who hasn't. I mean, yes he had read his poetry to little poetry gatherings in Montreal. But he didn't know, he had never been out in front of a basically a rock and roll, wildly enthusiastic crowd of people. And it must have been a shock so yes. But he got over it fast. He became a great performer.

CO: There are other times though I understand over the years when he had that stage fright again, that he couldn't do it, he couldn't face the music, he couldn't do the songs. Do you think he ever got completely over his stage fright?

JUDY COLLINS: Well, by the time he went back on the road after he lost his fortune because his manager ran off with all his money. He had overcome everything. I mean there was no question about his performances. He was remarkably professional and remarkably moving and totally unusual - totally unlike anybody else I've never seen any, but he spent years doing his concerts practically on the floor. I mean he would be kneeling he would be in the crouch like a Russian dancer does when he gets down to do those things with the legs fling out. I mean he was a total athlete. So I just think that he learned he got to the point where he could do anything on the stage if he wanted.

CO: He was. I saw him when he launched that tour in Toronto in 2008, and he was just magic onstage humble happy and mystical at the same time grounded all of these things together used to extraordinary to. When was the last time you spoke with Leonard Cohen?

JUDY COLLINS: I spoke to him maybe you know a year and a half ago, but on the on the e-mails we spoke often.

CO: And how was he in his final time? Do you know?

JUDY COLLINS: I have not had a personal conversation with him for about six months, but I knew he wasn't doing well. But I knew he was working on darker - You Want it Darker. He and Adam were putting it together.

CO: His son yeah. And so how did he seem to you in his in his final months?

JUDY COLLINS: Oh he's always seemed amazing. You know, he's always - the thing about Leonard and his work and his life very much reflected the same philosophy that one must always be ready for anything. That's part of the deal in life is that you wake up in the morning, you have no idea what's going to happen and you have to be prepared for disaster, joy, tragedy, you know whatever comes up.

CO: Judy Collins, it's a great pleasure to speak with you. I'm sorry it’s about this, but thank you for sharing your memories of Leonard Cohen with us.

JUDY COLLINS: My horrifying pleasure, as they say.

CAROL OFF: Thank you so much.

JUDY COLLINS: Thank you. Bye bye.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Judy Collins is a singer and a songwriter and a long-time friend and collaborator of Leonard Cohen. We reached her in New York, and here is Leonard Cohen speaking to CBC host, Bill Craig in 1967, just a few weeks before he released his debut album.

SOUNDCLIP

I have never seen an action. I have never heard of a tale that I am not capable of being the protagonist in.

Do you believe in a destiny, that your life pattern is set out, and you don't have any control?

Whatever the thread is that you too. That's your destiny. I create the next moment by this moment. Perhaps this small crust this integument that you call your personality or your ego is a very very tiny layer that you've built around something that is a complete mystery that you don't know anything about.

What you think about the ego?

I don't think about it I wrestle with it.

In your wrestling, you must discover some things about the ego?

I find it's a better wrestler than I am.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Leonard Cohen, speaking to the CBC's Bill Craig in 1967.

[Music: Suzanne]

Remembering Leonard Cohen: Robert Faggan

Guests: Robert Faggan

JEFF DOUGLAS: After his dreamy ladies’ man poet period, and after he became a folk music legend, Leonard Cohen shaved his head and he moved up a mountain. in the 1990's, Mr. Cohen took up residence at a Zen Buddhist monastery in California's San Gabriel Mountains. And he lived there as an ordained monk for five years. Living nearby on the mountain was literature professor Robert Faggan, and they have been close friends for the last 20 years. We reached Robert Fagan in Claremont, California.

CAROL OFF: Robert, I'm so sorry about your friend's death.

ROBERT FAGGAN: Thank you.

CO: Can you give us a sense, a picture of how Leonard Cohen was living in the last months of his life?

ROBERT FAGGAN: I think that he was struggling with illness and that he was also working with great energy and focus on his writing - poems and songs. And that he was in spite of everything, quite joyous.

CO: How did you come to meet Leonard Cohen?

ROBERT FAGGAN: I met Leonard Cohen in a market delicatessen in Claremont, where I teach. I had just moved up on Mount Baldy, and he was living in a cabin in a Zen monastery up there. And I didn't know that. So I was in the market one day and getting some food - some sliced meat at the delicatessen. And there was the man next to me dressed in black, who was talking to himself and debating about whether to get German potato salad or whole potato salad. And he kept going back and forth on this. And he had a Basso voice. And so I kept looking over at him, and something about him struck me as familiar. And at one point I just said. "Are you Leonard Cohen?" He said. "Yes I am." I just said, "Well, I think you should get the whole potato salad." And we struck up a conversation. And then there were many conversations after that.

CO: That was 20 years ago?

ROBERT FAGGAN: That's correct.

CO: And what was it like to be his friend? What was the connection to you?

ROBERT FAGGAN: Well I think we both love words. I think we both love literature and poetry and I think we also had some other more personal preoccupations, perhaps that had to do with attitudes toward religion that were among the many things that we talked about. But I think that was just a kind of sensibility there that between us that connected.

CO: What was it like to hang out with him?

ROBERT FAGGAN: It was wonderful. It was fun. It was funny. He was very funny man. And we could sit around and joke about all kinds of absurdities, which of course there are many.

CO: Now on Mount Baldy, he was spending time as a monk. He was very much interested in Zen Buddhism. You knew him during that time?

ROBERT FAGGAN: Yes I did. I think there was a sense of the potential of the discipline of it that attracted him.

CO: Did you talk much about religion?

ROBERT FAGGAN: Yes we did. And I think his relationship to some kind of ultimate source or divinity was very important to him. He wanted to understand the universe and how it - what moved it and what moved him.

CO: And how was he preparing for his own final journey?

ROBERT FAGGAN: As far as I could tell. Doing what he always did which was focusing on his work. He was writing more songs and poems, and that was always a very consuming thing for him.

CO: We spoke to Judy Collins, and she said that what he taught her was that you have to be prepared for everything all the time.

ROBERT FAGGAN: Yes well, I think that he had a very powerful sense that we were not in control, and that we had to be open to what fate played out for us.

CO: And do you think he was?

ROBERT FAGGAN: Oh I think to an extent, but I think he was someone who understood what it meant to argue with God. I think that was a very profound part of his understanding of Judaism.

CO: There are I know some a lot of verses and poems you must have in your head of your friend these days. Any in particular you would share with us?

ROBERT FAGGAN: Well there's one little poem that just comes to mind for me this morning, that is in his collection of poems Book of Longing. If you'd like I could I could recite it?

CO: Please.

ROBERT FAGGAN: I am this thing that needs to sing. I love to sing to my beloved other thing, and to my own dear sweet God. I love to sing to him and her and to my baby’s lower fur, which is so holy that I want to crawl on my knees off a high cliff and sail around singing in the wind which is so friendly to my feathery spirit. I am this thing that wants to sing when I am up against the spit and scorn of judges. Oh God I want to sing. I am this thing that needs to sing.

CO: Robert, thank you. That is so beautiful.

ROBERT FAGGAN: Thank you.

CO: I'm glad to know that he was he was joyous, as you say in his final months.

ROBERT FAGGAN: I think so.

CAROL OFF: Thank you.

ROBERT FAGGAN: You're welcome.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Robert Faggan was a close friend of Leonard Cohen's. We reached him in Claremont, California.

[Music: Hallelujah]

Remembering Leonard Cohen: Hallelujah Producer

Guests: John Lisshauer

JD: Leonard Cohen never ever ever expected this to become one of the world's most covered songs. It's a remarkable achievement for a piece of music that was initially dismissed by record executives in 1984. When the song was released, Columbia Records heard Hallelujah they told Leonard Cohen It was not good enough. John Lisshauer remembers those days. He produced Mr. Cohen's 1984 record, Various Positions, which included Hallelujah. We read John Lisshauer in Katonah, New York.

CAROL OFF: John, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss. .

JOHN LISSHAUER: Well, I think we all are. And it's all our loss, of course, and on the bright side he had an incredibly productive and long musical life. He left behind a greater legacy of work than most artists could ever dream of.

CAROL OFF: How are you remembering him today?

JOHN LISSHAUER: Well, you know I'm at home when I was 22-years-old. So I've known him for two-thirds of my life and probably half of his. And I remember just how much we enjoyed each other. Socially we just we hit it off, even though he was 15-years-old than I. We just hit it off intellectually and musically, and we had the same sense of humour. People don't realise that Leonard was a very funny and twinkly and charming guy, and people say. "Oh, you know, some of the songs were depressing." But he really he let the light shine through — quite often.

CO: The song I want to ask you about, which is the one that is wafting down streets of cities today everyone's - whether it's in their heads or in their ears, it's Hallelujah. And that's the one that you produced with him. Has that been playing in your head today?

JOHN LISSHAUER: It does play in my head all the time because not three days goes by when someone doesn't email me yet another version of the song.

CO: We'll refer to the album. This is the 1985, this is Various Positions and this is when Hallelujah came. Which also had Dance Me To The End Of Love and Coming Back To You on it, but what happened?

JOHN LISSHAUER: And If It Be Your Will. Well, what happened was we made this record. CBS or Columbia or Sony or whichever it was at the time really was worry about Leonard because he wasn't selling in the States. He was very big in Europe and pretty big in Canada, but in the States he was a non-issue really. And they sort of demanded that we come up with something powerful and something that would break through and make him a star or something anthemic and you know, great art as well as something commercial and memorable and all this. So we went in and we did this record, and we from day one we were in heaven because everything was going great. The songs were fantastic. His performances were right on; the lyrics were inspiring. He, his manager and I just said. "This is the best." And we went up to Columbia to present it, and of course, they just hated it and the record was dead.

CO: The extraordinary line that Leonard Cohen says was that, Walter Yetnikoff, of Columbia Records, said that, "well, Leonard we know you're great. We just don't know if you're any good. What does that mean?

JOHN LISSHAUER: You know, I was not at that meeting — it's a great line. And it turned out the anthemic quality they were looking for, exactly what they wanted us to do. We had done. It’s just that either the timing was wrong, or they didn't know what to do with it.

CO: How did Leonard Cohen feel about it? I know that he pulled it out of himself — hallelujah I'm speaking of. And he says it took him five years to write that song.

JOHN LISSHAUER: Well, when he presented it to me in early '84, it was for all intents and purposes complete. There were no other verses as far as what he played for me. It was as we recorded it, so I never got to hear the angst of the other verses. He just presented it to me. And I said. "Man, that's just great."

CO: What do you think the song means?

JOHN LISSHAUER: To me it's just beautifully ambiguous. And one of the things about a great song is it is able to touch a lot of people in different ways. And it would be bubble bursting to try and narrow that if you understand I mean? I never comment on what I think any of Leonard's lyrics mean because that's a private thing and also I wouldn't want to diminish them. So to me it's an uplifting song that has a visceral effect on you. Regardless of whether you're whether or not you see the hallelujah as a large uplifting thing in the way that we do, or as a darker more internal approach. Which of course if you submit, Buckley particularly you know there's a lot of mundane versions of it of course just going through the motions. But there have been a number of spectacular recordings.

CO: I just want to go back to just a bit about what it was like to hang out with Leonard Cohen because everyone has just remarkable stories about just how comfortable he was to sit on the floor and have something to eat with?

JOHN LISSHAUER: we did all of that we would sit on the floor and on the couches and he play me songs and we'd go back and forth and I'd sit at the piano. And there are just endless anecdotes about it. On the first record we did in '73, which had fabulous really artistic songs on that record. We were both enjoying a Korean spirit, which he had discovered I guess with his spiritual adviser I would call him. Every once in a while we'd get semi-hammered on stuff, and he was a riot when he was drunk. It was like a kid in a candy store. He was just all over the place and he had so much fun. in fact, we recorded an entire lyric sort of in that state and other times he was mostly down to earth. But every once in a while we'd let ourselves get a little crazy and it was always giggles time because he's a very funny guy. So the social life was amazing. Plus we were on tour for, oh man, probably a hundred and twenty concerts over four years. We would have the most memorable moments: meals and run-ins with people, side trips and nothing but great memories.

CO: John, I really appreciate you sharing your memories of Leonard Cohen with us. Thank you.

JOHN LISSHAUER: Oh, thank you so much for asking me. May his songs live forever.

CAROL OFF: Thank you.

JOHN LISSHAUER: OK. Bye bye

JEFF DOUGLAS: John Lisshauer produced three of Leonard Cohen's studio albums including his 1984 record, Various Positions. We reached him in Katonah, New York. And here now is that cover of Hallelujah by Jeff Buckley.

[Music: Hallelujah]

JEFF DOUGLAS: Jeff Buckley with his cover of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. We will be back after a brief break with more As It Happens.

CAROL OFF: And of course, more on the extraordinary life and poetry of Leonard Cohen. Stay tuned. I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: And I'm Jeff Douglas.

Post-Trump Hate, Cross-Country Wreath (Part 2)

Guests: Janae Cummings

Carol Off: Hello again and welcome back, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: And I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens the Friday edition, part two.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Coming up.

CO: The thin white, line bad feminist author Roxane Gay argues that despite the allegations of sexual misconduct surrounding him, many women voted for Donald Trump because they value their whiteness over their womanhood.

JD: And when Field Commander Cohen took up the torch, last fall Leonard Cohen recorded a version of it In Flanders Fields. Penned one hundred years earlier by another Canadian poet John McCrae, While serving on the battlefield as a surgeon.

CO: That and more from Canada's master of song, who has died at the age of 82.

[Music: Theme]

JEFF DOUGLAS: It has not been 72 hours since Donald Trump's presidential victory. And in that time there have already been several disturbing incidents reported across the United States in Pennsylvania, for example, a high school principal wrote home to parents that students were being called the N word and were being subjected to gay slurs. Swastikas were drawn on homework, students were performing

Heil Hitler signs and in Pelham, North Carolina one of the largest chapters of the Ku Klux Klan announced it is planning a victory parade. Janae Cummings, is just one of many who took to Facebook this week to share an incident that happened to her. Ms. Cummings is a communications specialist at Indiana University at Bloomington. We reached her in Bloomington, Indiana.

Carol Off: Janae, can you tell us what happened to you on Wednesday evening?

JANAE CUMMINGS: Sure. I was walking to my car from work. I was at a stoplight not paying attention looking at my phone and some individuals in a truck started shouting at me - used a racial slur. And you know laugh and I drove away. So I think that in a nutshell, that's what it was.

CO: But specifically they told you to do something?

JANAE CUMMINGS: There was a Burger King Cup rolling at my feet. And they told me to pick it up.

CO: And at first, you said in your Facebook post that you weren't sure what you'd heard.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Right. Right and I wasn't quite paying attention. And I heard what they said, but there's that moment when someone does something so awful that you kind of - it was a bit surreal, and I couldn't believe it was happening. And I looked up and the person who said it, egged on by his friend, said it again. And that's when I realised no this is this is actually happening.

CO: And he used the N-word?

JANAE CUMMINGS: He did.

CO: And he said. "Hey pick that up! Keep my streets clean?"

JANAE CUMMINGS: Correct.

CO: What happened to you after that? How did you process that?

JANAE CUMMINGS: I went to my car, and I sat in my car in a garage, and I cried. I sat there for a moment, and I turned the car on and tried to just think about what happened then I started crying and then I drove home.

CO: You said in your Facebook post that you grew up in Indiana. You've learned to quote, "steel yourself against aggression and just keep moving." Was it different this time?

JANAE CUMMINGS: It was different this time I think because of the election outcome and the political environment. I think growing up in the Midwest if you're a person of colour if you're different if you're other somehow this is something that happens to you. It's some it's something that you never quite get used to. But I think it's something that you learn how to deal with. And I have always reacted in a way where I don't acknowledge. I don't give them the satisfaction of my reaction, and I move on. I think in this instance I was already feeling very tense and I hadn't yet had a real emotional reaction I think to the election. And in that moment I think it was just too much.

CO: You wrote that you said, "I cried because my country declared war on me and my loved ones.

JANAE CUMMINGS: That's how it felt. And while I know that is not completely true, I do know that the outcome has emboldened and empowered the type of people who are against me as an African-American woman. You know I really believe that when you cast a ballot for someone who is supported by and endorsed by very negative very hate-filled elements that you accept that as part of your vote. And so it did really feel like half of the population was really against me.

CO: You mean because the KKK has endorsed Donald Trump?

JANAE CUMMINGS: For KKK, nationalists, neo-Nazi groups that kind of thing. And I know that not everyone who cast a ballot agrees with those groups. I know that I know that for certain. But when you support a candidate who does not back down from those views then it seems like you embrace them too or at least you have said you know that's OK. And that is very hurtful.

CO: You said also in your post that you, "cried because so many people that you cared for and loved, that you considered to be your friends cast ballots for bigotry, fear, racism and oppression." Do you know people who voted for Donald Trump?

JANAE CUMMINGS: Oh absolutely. Many people I grew up with. Many friends who I have, family members voted for Donald Trump. And they voted for myriad reasons.

CO: And what have you asked those friends of yours to do?

JANAE CUMMINGS: You know in the post I made I said simply, "unfriend me because we are not friends." That was what I was feeling in that moment.

CO: We are reading from a screen grab of your Facebook posting because Facebook took it down - took the posting down why is that the case?

JANAE CUMMINGS: I do not know. I logged in this morning and had a notification that my post violated community standards, and there was a follow-up screen inviting me to read to the community standards guidelines. And from there I was restored access.

CO: Your last line is, "I'm done crying and I'm coming for you." What did you mean by that?

JANAE CUMMINGS: I meant that I'm done being sad about this. I feel impassioned, and I am coming in the way that I will be a voice against those who tolerate bigotry those who tolerate oppression. I want to stand up against those things. I want to help mobilise people who are against them so that we don't continue to have policies and legislation that rules our lands that puts people's lives in jeopardy.

Carol Off: You, of course, are not the only person who has posted a story of this nature in the past days people being told. "Time to go, get out, go home, go back where you came from." Trump being written on an Islamic prayer room door scrawled on the wall. "Black lives don't matter and neither do your votes." Do you think this is going to continue?

JANAE CUMMINGS: I do, and I do believe it will get worse before it gets better. But I think the reaction to that is not to be fearful. We need to be brave, and we need to push forward and do what we think is right which is stand up to this kind of behavior and stand up to this hostility and try to make the world a bit better than it is right now.

CO: And what Mr. Trump's responsibilities here?

JANAE CUMMINGS: I can't speak to that. I hope from all of our leaders that when they see divisiveness like this they try to heal. They try to create unity. I think that is what they are responsible to do to bring us together as a people and to heal these wounds and to move forward.

Carol Off: Janae, Thank you for speaking with us.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Thank you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Janae Cummings is a university communications specialist. We reached her in Bloomington, Indiana.

[Music: Acoustic]

Cross-Country Wreath

Guests: Mike Ranta, Spitzii

JD: Earlier today Mike Ranta placed his wreath alongside a Sea of Poppies on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Ottawa. Mr. Ranta had traveled from Northern Ontario for the Remembrance Day ceremony. His wreath had traveled even further. Mr. Ranta spent two hundred days in his canoe traveiling from Vancouver to Dominion, Nova Scotia with his dog Spitzii. He stopped at as many Legions as he could along the way and all along his journey he collected leaves, branches, birch and reeds, which would eventually form the wreath he brought to Ottawa earlier today. We reached Mike Ranta in Arnprior, Ontario.

Carol Off: Mike, how did it feel to finally lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier?

MIKE RANTA: It was fantastic it was. It was pretty surreal actually. I had a lot of great people in mind when I laid that wreath. Yeah, it was a great moment having all these people who lined up. Yeah, it was pretty emotional - that's for sure.

CO: Each part of it - it's a very simple, but beautiful thing and you twisted with all these different bits of vegetation. Tell us a bit about what's in there?

MIKE RANTA: Well, I have a little bit of birch; alder, willow and I even got some grass and reeds out of a swamp. And you know it was just those moments where I met veterans and had this amazing experience, and I just wrapped them up as they went.

CO: And each is it from a different part of the country. Can you tell us a bit about where you went and how you collected this?

MIKE RANTA: Well, as I went through each province I wanted to get a little piece of each province because it reminded me of the people in that province. Yeah, it was fun, and you know, it was a pretty decent sized wreath. Yeah, it was a great moment. It really was.

CO: And you said that you had lots of people in mind when you laid it there. You met people; you stopped at the Legions, you spoke with people you heard their stories, not just from the past wars, but the more recent ones. And so what were thinking of? Were the moments that you had in your mind as you laid that wreath?

MIKE RANTA: Oh, it was that there were so many people you know, and it's just so hard to describe how many people you have in mind in that one-minute interval. You know, and you get that opportunity. And having said that you know it was it was the veterans of World War Two is why I really started this. I lost a couple of friends in that era. And then as I stopped at Legion and Legion and got people to sign my canoe as I went I started meeting up with today's veterans to and found a very special Canadian in these people. And yeah, I had young and old in mind when I laid that wreath. And yeah, it was incredible.

CO: Was there any particular person or story that was with you most of all when you did that — when you laid the wreath?

MIKE RANTA: Absolutely. You know there is an old fella back home named Don, He's a legendary paddler in our town. He really did inspire me to do these kinds of trips. You know, he's an amazing guy. He actually put this into mind with me you know? Building a wreath and going across the country. Hats off to this guy. He's the guy that they gave me the idea.

CO: How long did it take you?

MIKE RANTA: It took me two hundred days to get from Vancouver all the way to Cape Breton. And it was it was amazing. It was a new world record.

CO: And then in each place you stopped, you checked in at the Legion, and I understand there's one particular story and a very old that 98- year-old man that that really touched you.

MIKE RANTA: Yes actually, it wasn't even at the legion when I met this gentleman. He was on the side of the road. His son pulled up, he was 80-years-old and his father was 98 and he was a really amazing person. He was first we've been on Normandy. He lost over 80 men on that first day. And he had just such an amazing story of survival. And to see that fire in his eyes and listen to his story and listen and to him say the names and remembering these people and you can just sense it you know? We both - all three of us wept on the side of the road that day you know? It was just a special moment - it really was. He really set the pace on its own for the rest of the trip.

CO: Sorry, it sounds like get your pooch shares this view with you, he's speaking up there in the background.

MIKE RANTA: Oh yes, I would bet he's having a good time.

Carol Off: All right well we will leave both of you with your memories, and I appreciate it very much you spoke with us, Mike.

MIKE RANTA: Thank you very much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Mike Ranta was in Ottawa earlier today to place his wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. We reached Mr. Ranta and Spitzii in Arnprior, Ontario.

Tape; Montreal Veteran, from Our Archives

JD: For Ocal Stewart, the memories from World War II are still nearly as vivid as the events themselves. After more than 70 years Mr. Stewart, was on the Beach on D-Day in Normandy, and here the 95-year-old recalls his perilous journey to France for CBC Montreal.

SOUNDCLIP

We were told hey, it's time to get ready. Shortly there after, I looked out and saw more ships than I ever thought existed. It seemed one could walk back across the channel hopping from vessel to vessel just like low water. I saw floating tanks, many which capsized in the rough seas. There were tears of rockets going swish swish swish from rocket firing barges. We'd never seen them before. And when you heard chug chug chug, you found it to be the noise of a shell from a battleship so far to the rear that you could not see it. And something was happening everywhere, and it all had a bang. And I could remember looking at the seawall and under the seawall. Where many German prisoners dead, wounded. There was no time to be afraid. It was all a new novelty. Further more, on the way in our landing craft and six feet of water hit a mine and sank - the front ramp was blown off. There were six vehicles on board. The first vehicle off was an infantry Bren gun carrier, the Bren gun carrier got about 20 - 25 feet off the landing craft. It hit a mine, went as high as this room out of the water. Nobody got out. And I can remember turning to a chap next to me and saying, "you know a fellow could get killed around here!" Was I scared? Well, no. It was all new, and not only that, it was always the other guy that was going to get killed. Never me.

JEFF DOUGLAS: That was World War II veteran Ocal Stewart, speaking on CBC Radio's Daybreak in Montreal.

[Music: Orchestra]

Leonard Cohen in 1967, From Our Archives

JEFF DOUGLAS: A lot of us have cracked open the Spice-Box of Earth. Or lowered the needle on Songs From a Room, to learn something about love and longing. But if you were to ask him, Leonard Cohen would be the first to admit, he didn't have all the answers. In June of 1967, Leonard Cohen had just returned from Greece, and was only a few weeks away from releasing his debut album. Here as part of a CBC interview he did at that time.

SOUNDCLIP

A lot of your poems have to do with love. Or what do you think about love? Do you have a kind of an impression of what love is?

Well, I like to be taught. You know, that's I think that's what I want everybody to do is to teach me about that. you know, I think that when you meet a person at any moment you want to be taught about love because there's so much evidence to the contrary. We have the word it's in the air you know, but there's so much evidence to the contrary. You look around you look at the lack of generosity. In yourself. You know, the things you are unwilling to concede that the many ways that you can't love. So that. I. Am continually looking for someone to tell me about it. And I try to provoke that exchange by perhaps writing a poem that says you know like, "where are you Judy where are you Anne?" You know, tell me.

JEFF DOUGLAS: From June of 1967, that was Leonard Cohen in conversation with CBC Television soon after returning from Greece.

Cohen’s Letter to his muse Marianne

JD: And on one of those sojourns to the Greek island of Edra. Leonard Cohen met the muse who would inspire one of his best loved songs. That being of course So Long Marianne. Marianne Ihlen died last July, but before she did Leonard Cohen, wrote her a letter in which he suggests he knew his own death was close at hand. And from our archives here is part of As It Happens guest host, Rosemary Barton's conversation with Jan Christian Mollestad, who read Mr. Cohen's letter to Marianne, at her bedside.

SOUNDCLIP

You know, we were very close. so I got an sms on the telephone saying, "hello it's Marianne, I'm in the hospital in Oslo. I'm dying." And then we came in and she said, "please give the message to your friends and please could you tell Leonard what is happening?" So we went home, and I sent him a letter telling him that well, unfortunately it seems like Marianne has only a few days to live. And then it took only two hours. In came this beautiful letter from Leonard to Marianne. And she was fully conscious and she was so happy that he had already written something for her.

I know you don't have it in front of you, but I'm sure given it was written by Leonard Cohen you can remember part of it. What parts do you remember?

Well, he said is that, "well Marianne, we've come to this time when we are so old. And our bodies are falling apart. And I think that I will follow you very soon. Know that I am very close, so close behind you. That if you stretch out your hand, you can reach mine. And you know that I've always loved you for your beauty and for your wisdom. I don't need to say anything more about that. Because you know. But now I just want to wish you a very good journey. Good old friend. Endless love see you down the road.

[Music: So Long Marianne]

JEFF DOUGLAS: In the midst of our morning. Leonard Cohen, we cannot forget that it is Remembrance Day. And just last year Mr. Cohen delivered a haunting reading of the poem In Flanders Fields by the Canadian lieutenant colonel and Sergeant John McCrae. To celebrate it's one hundred year and here now is Leonard Cohen with his recitation of In Flanders Fields.

SOUNDCLIP

In Flanders Fields, the poppies blow, between the crosses row on row. That mark our place, and in the sky, the larks still bravely singing fly. Scarce heard amid the guns below. We are the dead: short days ago, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, loved and were loved and now we live in Flanders Fields. Take up our quarrel with the foe, to you from failing hands, we throw the torch. Be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die, we shall not sleep. Though poppies grow in Flanders Fields.

JEFF DOUGLAS: That was Leonard Cohen reading in Flanders Fields. Flanders Fields rather, recorded last fall to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the poem written by Canadian war Sergeant, John McRae.

[Music: Cultural]

Roxane Gay

Guests: Roxane Gay

JEFF DOUGLAS: In the aftermath of Tuesday's election, the lines of division between Americans have never been more clear. And that is especially true of the lines of division between women. There had been much talk of Hillary Clinton being the first woman elected president, and when it came to voting most women of color cast their ballots for Ms. Clinton. But a quiet majority of white women voted for Mr. Trump, paving his path to victory. And now those divisions continue to grow as women begin to think about what a Trump presidency will mean for their rights. Roxane Gay is an associate professor at Purdue University and the author of bad feminist. We reached her in Lafayette, Indiana.

CAROL OFF: Professor Gay, How confident were you that the United States was going to see its first woman president?

ROXANE GAY: I was very confident. I was too confident apparently. I really really believed, in my heart of hearts, that Hillary Clinton was going to be elected. I didn't even allow myself to imagine the possibility of a Trump presidency.

CO: And how are you feeling now?

ROXANE GAY: Oh man, I feel defeated, and I am chastising myself for underestimating the level of racism at work in the United States. That's for sure. I mean I thought I knew this country was racist, but now I know.

CO: And why do you think racism is the reason why Trump prevailed over Hillary Clinton?

ROXANE GAY: I think a lot of it is push-back for eight years of having our first black president. I think a lot of it is that there's a lot of racial resentment among many Americans, who believe that the "American Dream" means that they get everything they want, whenever they want it. And this is framed oftentimes as economic anxiety, which is not necessarily the case. There are many Americans - too many Americans frankly, that are suffering from economic instability, unemployment and just profound poverty. But many of these voters actually voted for Hillary Clinton. The majority of Trump's voters made more than $50000 a year and so one of the things that Trump did was speak to xenophobia and making a spectre out of the Mexican immigrants as a rapist and criminal. And he has this preposterous idea of a wall along our southern border. And so this allowed people to really indulge in their racism. And then he made it even worse with talking about Muslims and how he was going to ban Muslims from immigrating to the United States.

CO: Can I just ask you why do you think that so many women voted for Mr. Trump?

ROXANE GAY: Because I think that many white women are more invested in whiteness than they are in their womanhood.

CO: Do you want to explain that?

ROXANE GAY: I think that they're more invested in protecting white privilege than they are worried about their womanhood and the disadvantages they might face as a woman. I think that most women simply aren't feminists and aren't inter-sexual in their thinking about feminism, so they're only thinking about themselves and people like them.

CO: We spoke with a woman, who's just outside Pittsburgh. Her family members were going to vote for Trump - did vote for Mr. Trump. She, at the last moment in the voting booth, decided she would vote for Hillary Clinton. It seems that her motivation was that in the end she was just so offended by the things Mr. Trump had said about women - that she couldn't do it. She was just she found them disgusting. Why do you think that more women confronted with that moment? That woman did?

ROXANE GAY: I really don't know. I think you have to ask them. You know I think that I think that misogyny is so pervasive that women believe it and internalise it as well. And I think a lot of that is what's at play here. I think that many women have convinced themselves that the way Trump treats women is just how guys are and that they may not like it. But it's not the end of the world, and it's not a deal breaker in a president.

CO: We spoke with another woman from rural Ohio, who voted for Mr. Trump. She said her motivation was safety, and she said that she felt that what she called the "race riots" that she believed were threatening her safety even though she lives in rural Ohio. And that she would believe that Mr. Trump would support police against those riots. And that she would also be protected from Islamic terrorists under Mr. Trump - that safety and security were her motivations. What do you say to her?

ROXANE GAY: I say that she needs help because those are not rational concerns. What "race riot" is going to happen in rural Ohio? Like what is she talking about? "Race riots" haven't happened anywhere for decades. So it's not even a "race riot." I mean even that term is a misleading as to what riots are actually about.

CO: What do you think she is actually saying there? What do you think that language is actually saying?

ROXANE GAY: I think she just believes that. I think it's a paranoid, irrational fear based on the kinds of rhetoric that Trump allowed to flourish during his campaign. But really she's just saying, "I don't want black people or Muslims around me," even though they're not around her.

CO: Is it possible that Mr. Trump is typical of men in power that he's just saying it out loud as opposed to keeping it in an inner circle? Is that the perception you think?

ROXANE GAY: I don't know. You know, I don't even think it's about politics. I think that the concerns that feminists and women, in general, have about Donald Trump have little to do with politics - Well not little. I mean there's the reproductive freedom part that's really troubling. But I know a lot of women are concerned with his history of sexual assault and diminishing and demeaning women and his corporate policies that consider a woman who's pregnant as an inconvenience. So you know, I have been around men for my entire life. And do men talk about women and talk about women's bodies and talk about sex? Absolutely, but very few men walk around saying grab them by the *****. That's an aberration. And it should be an aberration, and we should be appalled by that, and we should say that perhaps we should have a higher standard for the most powerful position in the United States - if not the world.

CO: Just on the issue of women and women's rights, what are the what are the issues that you see are possible? The policy decisions that the Trump presidency might make will affect women?

ROXANE GAY: Reproductive freedom, access to birth control, paid maternity leave and health care in general. Because he's already promised that he's going to repeal Obamacare, even though it's not going to be that easy, but still a lot of women are going to be affected by that. Social services that serve women disproportionately are going to be affected.

CO: There have been a number of social media postings in recent days. Many of them and many articles urging women to go and get an IUD as soon as possible before Mr. Trump takes office. Why is that?

ROXANE GAY: I think women are trying to protect themselves and to make sure that they have some kind of birth control in place in case the worst case scenario happens. Because we're at the worst case scenario with Trump as president - we just don't know what he's going to do.

CO: He said he's pro-life.

ROXANE GAY: Well yeah, he says a lot of things. He says he's pro-life. And what's worse than Trump is the people that he has surrounded himself with. Trump is going to get bored with the presidency very quickly. But it's the people he has in place, and the most dangerous person in his administration right now is Mike Pence.

CO: Who's his Vice-President-elect?

ROXANE GAY: Correct. And he is the governor of Indiana, where I live, and he is someone who diverted money from HIV prevention to retraining gay people and trying to convert gay people. He believes in torturing gay people into heterosexuality. He believes in prosecuting women who have had miscarriages and signed into legislation a law that requires that women who have a miscarriage bury the fetus and have a funeral for the fetus. I mean this is just...

CO: He stated these things?

ROXANE GAY: These are things he's done as governor. He's a horror show - in every possible way. He's a true believer, unlike Trump.

CAROL OFF: Professor Gay, we will leave it there and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

ROXANE GAY: Thank you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Roxane Gay, associate professor at Purdue University and the author of bad feminist. She is in Lafayette, Indiana. And we have posted that interview to our Web site if you would like to share it that is cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Rock]

Leitch Professor Book

JEFF DOUGLAS: Here in Canada, federal Conservative leadership candidate Kellie Leitch, is doubling down on her immigration policies calling for an increase in face-to-face interviews and screening of immigrants for so-called "Canadian values." And in order to add credibility to this argument, she keeps referencing a certain book on immigration. The book is called Points of Entry: How Canada's Immigration Officers Decide Who Gets In. There's just one problem with Ms. Leitch's claim that she is going by the book. And its author Victor Satzewich, says that Ms. Leitch's interpretation of his views is wrong. And he disagrees with her proposals completely. Mr. Satzewich is a professor in the Department of Sociology at McMaster University. We reached him in Hamilton, Ontario.

CAROL OFF: Professor Satzewich, what was your reaction when you saw Kellie Leitch hold up your book as a prop on Wednesday's Conservative leadership debate?

VICTOR SATZEWICH: Well, I was a bit surprised. I know that Kellie Leitch had read my book, but I was certainly very surprised that she held it up as a prop. I figured that some of the ideas might come up in the debate. But using the book sort of as a way to support her argument was quite a quite a surprise.

CO: And what does she say the book supports in terms of her own presentation?

VICTOR SATZEWICH: My book is really about decision-making at overseas visa offices. And so, I ended up getting permission from the Immigration Department to study how visa officers exercised their discretion and how visa officers make decisions. And what goes through of these officers mind when they decide to accept or reject an applicant for Canada. So that's really what the book is about. So there's I think two findings that she's taken to kind of lend support to her argument. And so one of the findings is that visa officers don't do many interviews anymore - that the vast majority of decisions, either approvals or refusals, are based on the information that applicants provide. And that interviews are really done in exceptional circumstances when these officers have concerns about a file where there's ambiguity.

CO: But the way that Kellie Leitch is referencing your book she says - this is a quote from her, "I will protect our Canadian values. Everyone on this stage supports immigration." This is during the leadership debate. "But I'm the only candidate who will require face-to-face interviews of new immigrants and screen them for Canadian values." And then she goes on to say, "you can get more information on this book that she's holding up on my website. What is your book supporting in that statement? She's going to do face-to-face interviews it does for "Canadian values?"

VICTOR SATZEWICH: In no place in my book Do I ever say that I would say that I think that screening for "Canadian values" is a good idea. I don't even raise the issue. That is independent of me; I never say that in any part of my book.

CO: But since you have spent so much time with the visa process. you've seen how they do their interviews. How they screen potential immigrants to Canada. What do you think of that idea? Is that something that could be done? Is it even possible?

VICTOR SATZEWICH: Honestly, I think it would be it would be a nightmare on so many different levels - an administrative nightmare. I think at one level, let's start at the beginning. If you know after a long and drawn out debate in Canada to define what these values are. The Immigration Department would then have to take that discussion and operationalise it. How are they actually going to test for "Canadian values" A multiple choice test, interviews she wants interviews. Interviews take time. How much time does it need to take to test somebody or do an interview for their "Canadian values."

CO: And you pointed out that there's 1.3 million people who apply for a visa every year. And so these would all be tested for their "Canadian values?"

VICTOR SATZEWICH: That's a lot of interviews.

CO: Have you told Kellie leitch you don't want her using your book?

VICTOR SATZEWICH: No, actually we talked on the weekend. And I never imagined that she would use it as a prop.

CO: Which you don't have any problem with? Do you have any problem with Kellie leitch continuing to use your book in this way?

VICTOR SATZEWICH: Well, I do that's why I wrote a little bit about that. And you know the piece appeared in The Globe and Mail today, and I felt like I have to explain that. No, in fact, I don't agree with her. I don't agree with this idea. And so at that level, I'm not that happy with it. But on the other hand, you know academics like me, we write books because we want people to read them. And I had never imagined that this would be the sort of forum within which my book would become sort of controversial. But if it leads more people to read the book and it helps people in Canada to better understand how the immigration system actually works. I think that's a good thing.

CAROL OFF: All right we'll leave it there, Professor Satzewich. Thank you.

VICTOR SATZEWICH: All right thanks.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Victor Satzewich a sociology professor at McMaster University and the author of Points of Entry: How Canada's Immigration Officers Decide Who Gets in. He was in Hamilton, Ontario.

[Music: Ambient Rock]

Reactions from Musicians Around the World on the Death of Leonard Cohen

JEFF DOUGLAS: Upon learning of Leonard Cohen's death singer-songwriter, Nick Cave wrote. "For many of us, Leonard Cohen was the greatest songwriter of them all. Utterly unique and impossible to imitate no matter how hard we tried." And yet, one artist would argue that Cohen hardly deserves such credit. Leonard Cohen himself, just weeks ago on the release of his latest album You Want It Darker. Cohen suggested he was more of a vessel than a visionary. He said quote, "I think that Bob Dylan knows this more than all of us. You don't write the songs anyhow." He told that to an audience at the Canadian consulate. "So if you're lucky, you can keep the vehicle healthy and responsive over the years. If you're lucky, your own intentions have very little to do with this. You can keep the body as well-oiled and receptive as possible, but whether you're going to actually be able to go for the long haul is really not your own choice."

CAROL OFF: But most of the rest of the world begs to differ with that humble self-assessment. Musicians in particular from all genres: folk, rock heavy metal, jazz are uniform in their reverence for Cohen, Jan Arden tweeted. "There truly was not a better songwriter on the planet. Leonard Cohen sublime poetry set into motion with Melody mind boggling.

JD: And from Justin Timberlake this tweet. "A Spirit and soul beyond compare.”

CO: Likewise, Tom Morello of Rage Against The Machine, tweeted. "One of the greatest, deepest and wisest to ever bless us with his songs." And Canada's Ron Sexsmith, who once shared the stage with Cohen, commented that he raised the bar quote. "Pretty high for all of us mortals.”

JD: And of course, tributes have come in from beyond the music world as well. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, released a statement that read in part quote. "His ability to conjure the vast array of human emotion made him one of the most influential and enduring musicians ever. His style transcended the vagaries of fashion.

CO: And on Facebook, Israeli President Reuven Rivlin, commended Cohen for refusing to change his quote. "Obviously Jewish last name - as did so many other entertainers of his generation." He added quote. "This was a man who knew how with one line in his notebook to lead and shape the world of man more than any speech ever written. Leonard Cohen will continue to dance beside us to the end of love."

JD: Montreal musician Martha Wainwright spoke with the CBC last night about the loss of her family friend.

SOUNDCLIP

I feel sad. You know it's a strange week. And in many ways, I'm a much happier thinking about Leonard Cohen than I am thinking of Donald Trump. So for that, I'm glad that he's at least in our minds. You know, in my mind. I mean we all knew that this was coming. And he lived an incredibly incredible life and I think a long life you know, an acceptably long life. His voice was like God was talking to you. And there was such a beauty in the way he spoke to you - you know quiet, but slow. He listened to every word that he said, you know, his presence was very palpable and very moving. The first time I saw him at his house, I wasn't expecting it and I was downstairs at his daughter's house and I looked out the window and I saw you know this man in a fedora and suit. Sitting on this you know little chair on this little lawn with a little plant. And it was just the most beautiful image. It was very exciting very exciting for me. Because he was you know, a hero of mine — obviously like he was a big hero of everyone who makes music. I think we should remember what he stood for. I think you know, which is maybe not what he always talked about, but I think that he was somebody who believed in truth and in being kind. You know, he was somewhat of a religious man. You know, he was a Buddhist. And I think that he really cared about other people and he also cared about the society that we live in and what we are to each other as human beings. And I got that sense from him.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Martha Wainwright speaking to CBC Montreal last night after learning about the death of Leonard Cohen. And we're going to leave you tonight with another of Mr. Cohen's songs. Here is Take This Waltz.

[Music: Take This Waltz]

JEFF DOUGLAS: This is Leonard Cohen with Take This Waltz and Mr. Cohen will bring us to the end of it As It Happens for this Remembrance Day. Friday, November 11th.

CAROL OFF: As It Happens will be back again on Monday. I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: And I'm Jeff Douglas. Good night.

[Music: Take This Waltz]

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Nov. 11, 2016 episode transcript

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