Where do the Parthenon Marbles belong?

More than 200 years after the Elgin — or Parthenon — marbles were torn from one of Greece's most sacred landmarks and shipped to the U.K., the Greek government continues to fight for their return.

Now, the marbles are at the centre of a diplomatic row between the two countries, after the British Prime Minister recently cancelled a scheduled meeting with the Greek Prime Minister hours before it was due to start.

Commotion host Elamin Abdelmahmoud talks to Marc Fennell, the host of Stuff The British Stole, about the latest on this historic case study and the questions it raises about how museums are decolonizing — and what's getting in the way.

For the full discussion, listen and follow the Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud podcast, on your favourite podcast player.

'This has been controversial right the way through'

The Parthenon Marbles ended up in England because of efforts made by a team of artists led by Lord Elgin, the British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire.

At the time, Greece was under Ottoman control, and the Parthenon was in rough shape. Initially, Elgin and his team asked for pieces of the historic structure in order to both study and preserve them.

"It was a bit of a case of don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness after you've done it," Fennell says.

While the story goes that Elgin and his team had permission from the Ottoman Empire at the time to remove the marbles, the original document outlining this agreement has never been found.

"There's layers to that, right? Because the Greeks were not in charge of their own land at the time; the Ottomans were. Essentially what you're looking at is permission from, at best, Ottoman middle management as to who gets to do this," Fennell says.

Fennell explains that while the issue of where the marbles should be housed remains contentious today, it's worth remembering that the removal of the Parthenon Marbles has always been controversial.

"Even at the time when this was happening, people were critical of it. Lord Byron, the very famous British poet, writes at the time about how scandalous it was that they were taking this incredible temple down.

"This isn't a case of us looking back from 2023 and using our lens to judge the past. It was controversial at the time," Fennell says.

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'It's been a stalemate for two centuries'

Fennell says that although the arguments on each side of the debate have evolved over time, their ultimate positions have never wavered.

"Many people have argued that Elgin saved the marbles, because they weren't in great shape when his people started looking. That is true," Fennell says.

At the time they were taken, the Parthenon Marbles had survived a massive explosion, since the temple at one point was used as a munitions store, and tourists had begun to loot the monument. In the years since the removal of the marbles, the British have suggested Greece isn't capable of caring for the ancient sculptures. As a result, the Greeks built a museum in Athens dedicated to the Acropolis.

"It's insane when you think about it, as a response to that criticism," Fennell says.

"Because it's been a 200-year-old argument, it has almost metastasized in a way. I can't see either of them ever changing their position."

Conversely, the Greek prime minister has recently compared the current arrangement to cutting the Mona Lisa in half, a comparison Fennell thinks is "fair."

More recently, however, Fennell says the argument on the Greek side has shifted from being about repatriation, to focussing instead on reunification.

"I think in this particular case the argument of reunification is more palatable, or they think it's more palatable, because it feels like more of an affront. The act of bringing them together feels like justice. It doesn't feel like nationalism…. My personal feeling is that it's fair, it's accurate — and it probably still won't work."

'There is an injustice there, that is entwined with pride'

Fennell tells Abdelmahmoud that he didn't plan to cover the Parthenon Marbles when he first began recording Stuff the British Stole because the case is so well-known, but he soon changed his mind after being "inundated" with requests from Greek people across the diaspora.

"One of the reasons why I've been so keen to revisit it and one of the reasons why this story has occupied my brain is that whenever you talk about looted artifacts, it's the number one story that people come back to. And it kind of speaks to identity.

"In central Athens, you can't build higher than the Acropolis so that everybody can look up to it. It has stood there for 2000 years. It has survived wars, fires, famine. It is part of their identity, and it has become that over the years. But central to that story is this idea of it being stolen. For the British, it occupies a completely different part of their mythology."

Fennell says that it took him a long time to fully appreciate why this particular case study continues to feel so personal to Greek people around the world.

"I underestimated how deep that sense of loss was not just for Greeks in Greece, but for Greeks everywhere….They have this intense pride over things that are born of Greece: democracy, and these huge ideas that have shaped art, culture and politics. They have this incredible legacy — and yet the evidence of their ownership does not reside on their land.

"The entire world uses Greek ideas, has built political systems out of Greek ideas, and yet the most stunning examples of that were taken in, let's just be diplomatic, extremely dodgy circumstances. I think that you have to understand that the pride is matched with a sense of injustice. And it's taken me years to understand that."

'We'll never be done with the legacy of colonialism.'

When asked what the Parthenon Marbles debate suggests about the colonialism behind museum collections today, Fennell says there is a path forward to better curatorial practices, but it'll require a lot of uncomfortable conversations for cultural institutions at large.

"Not every object should necessarily be returned. Not every community of origin necessarily wants their objects returned. Some people — many people, in fact — are really thrilled to have their culture spread around the world, but they would by and large prefer it if the plaques there told the truth about how it got there."

Fennell says there's a greater conversation to be had about how best to engage with cultural institutions and their ways of operating.

"I think if you're going to sell yourself as a place of knowledge and understanding and truth, you have to accept that you yourself need to be part of that conversation. You are not static. You are not floating above social affairs and issues. You are one."

As for the role of visitors, Fennell says a good place to start is to make a habit of practicing critical thinking when taking in an artifact or exhibition.

"You can still love it in the moment, and then ask hard questions of how it got there. These are not mutually exclusive ideas. I think we can do both."

You can listen to the full discussion from today's show on CBC Listen or on our podcast, Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud, available wherever you get your podcasts.

Interview with Marc Fennell produced by Jess Low.